The Narcissist & Empath myth - Sam Vaknin is right

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Join the Meltdown survivors community: Subscribe to the channel: kzbin.info/door/08b9iP-5KhbWOndNEeVZSw Join the facebook group: facebook.com/groups/themeltdowncommunity Email me: [e-mail]

[@jaderiley747]

Your absolutely correct!! This new FAD and the use of the word 'empath' is SO very damaging to people who will just shrug off their co-dependency issues as 'oh it's just who i am, an empath', and hinders them from going forward and seeking the help and inner work that they need to do. Hyper vigilant behaviour from earlier abuse can make a person have to tune into people's emotions so much more. Having had to walk on eggshells with a parent can cause this too. As you also point out, understanding past pain and having been in a situation that would able you to empathise with another is just that!!! I have much empathy and can also empathise with others. It does not make me an empath. In all my years of training for my masters as a psychotherapists have I ever come across this term 'empath '.... Great video 👍

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Thank you. I certainly think it's holding people back from doing the work they need to do to strenthen themselves. Having empathy is definitely a positive thing, but empathy without boundaries is not a strength in my opinion.

[@jaderiley747]

Absolutely i agree. I also think a lot of people haven't been taught the difference between empathy and compassion. With empathy the common assumption is the more we have the better person we are. As with many things in life, 'an element of truth' is a very different thing than the whole truth. Empathy is 'entering' the person's pain with them and 'compassion' is caring about the person's pain. The outcomes of these two perspectives are drastically different when it comes to how much we give to a loved one and its impact on our own mental health, if we get sucked into this emotional pool to save the person we no longer see with clear eyes and it becomes toxic and inhibits our own ability to function. That touch of empathy helps inform compassion and can leads us without panic or tunnel vision to look for more effective ways to help, which is by knowing that in terms of a narcissistic partner, 'unfortunately we cannot'. Intellectually understanding these critical differences may not change the underlying programming in the subconscious. We can intellectualize all we want, but the subconscious has tremendous influence. It will repeatedly take us back to our default assumptions; particularly when living with a person with a personality type. For most of us, these assumptions were laid down from very early ages. Long before we had the ability to question what we took in as truths about how we should be and function in the world. I guess it's like the scared dog you talk of, you can have all the compassion in your heart for it, but if you feel and follow it with too much empathy you will eventually crash and burn long before the dog does. It will literally be like chasing your own tail.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

@@jaderiley747 It sounds like you understand the condition really well. I agree there is a significant different between empathy and compassion. And I completely agree, that I think the purpose of empathy is to act as a gateway to compassion, which if applied correctly, leads to helping in the right way, not any way. Strangely, I've just seen my ex for the first time in about 6 months, and it was amazing how I was able to see her, and the whole situation from a very different perspective. I feel like now I feel compassion, but in a much more mature way. It was a very enlightening experience, and I think I'll make a video fairly soon on my thoughts on it. It was a real eye opener.

[@DwyaneWadeCounty]

by Michel de Montaigne ‘A strong imagination brings on the event,’ say the scholars. I am one of those who are very much affected by the imagination. Everyone feels its impact, but some are knocked over by it. On me it makes an intense impression, and my practice is rather to avoid it than to resist it. I wish I could consort only with the healthy and the cheerful, *for the sight of another’s anguish gives me real pain, and my body has often taken over the sensations of some person I am with* . A perpetual cougher irritates my lungs and my throat; and I am more reluctant to visit a sick man to whom I am bound by duty and interest than one who has a smaller claim on my attention and consideration. As I observe a disease, so I catch it and give it lodging in myself. It is no surprise to me that the imagination should bring fevers and death to those who allow it free play and encourage it. Simon Thomas was a great physician in his day, and I remember meeting him once at the house of a rich old man who suffered with his lungs. When the patient asked him how he could be cured, Master Thomas answered that one way would be for him to infect me with a liking for his company. Then if he were to fix his gaze on the freshness of my complexion, and his thoughts on the youthful gaiety and vigour with which I overflowed, and *if he were to feast his senses on my flourishing state of health, his own condition might well improve* . What he forgot to say was that mine might at the same time deteriorate.

[@KatesTake]

Hi Ian! I think that ego plays a huge part, we also feel good when we can take the pain or help others- I guess that's the codependent aspect. I also feel we are outwardly focused just like the narc, which prevents us from realizing that we are neglecting ourselves at the expense of others. After recognizing this, I am learning to balance myself.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Completely agree, I think the ego needs to feel like there is nothing wrong with us. Like you said, outwardly focused, almost an anti-narc if you will. The ability to self-appraise is critical to ensure we continue to be the most balanced person we can be. Hope all is ok with you:)

[@ceilconstante7813]

The hardest thing is to look inward at our own faults. A Narc isn't capable of doing that.

[@ditchdogger1]

There are contradictions here. Yes we play a key role as enablers but we don’t hurt people we are taken advantage of, our nature is taken advantage of. Is that our fault? Is it our fault we can’t attempt geometry until we’ve had a maths lesson. Maybe this ought to be on the curriculum. I fully agree with you on some of the channels on here. Looking back over a thirty year marriage I can tell you now of situations of being in the company of a spouse that was purely evil. A spouse that was purposely destroying me, I’ll say that again purposely destroying me for her own gain.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

I would agree, and I think there are contradictions here. To be clear, I don't think we are to blame for the narcissists behaviour, or why they choose to treat people the way they do. But I do think we lack the skills or knowledge to identify and act to protect ourselves from that behaviour. But, I think portraying that as a positive trait is a mistake that will keep us trapped into repeating the same behaviour if we don't believe there is anything in ourselves we need to fix. I also agree, I've seen a side of my ex that was purposefully evil and intent on ruining me. But, I think that was extreme behaviour and not her intention all along. The bigger problem was that her insatiable needs were far more important than me, and anything that got in the way of her satisfying those needs needed to be forcibly removed, whatever the cost.

[@ditchdogger1]

Midlife Meltdown thanks Ian keep going Rome wasn’t built in a day.

[@ditchdogger1]

I really believe you are onto something to eventually be very proud of.

[@glamgodess9643]

@@midlifemeltdown9028 LOL, did you see his video where he says Empaths are Psychopaths

[@suzannefehr5253]

Hi Ian. I agree with you. There have been many sites that seem to have gone angels versus demons.. I do have to admit though some of these sites were validating for me initially. ..I basically needed to know I was not wrong for leaving and I was abused by a man that was very sick. I took the brunt of his abuse. I was the prey. However, I understand the dynamic way better now, and I have really just started opening up my own can of worms... I feel clinging on to a label "I am an empath"... is futile. I am a co- dependent with learned helplessness as Richard Grannon explains with high levels of empathic qualities. Lately, I have been really digging deep and focusing on my own co dependency issues and how I played my role in it all...This level of awareness is gut wrenching at times..however necessary in order to truly heal. Sometimes your words hurt and I have to listen to your videos several times before It sinks in. In other words they make me think and re think. I appreciate your candor, your insight and your ability to step back and read the situation somewhat different. They can be thought provoking and help with my healing progression, although sometimes hard to hear...hard to take. Thanks Ian.👍🌈

[@suzannefehr5253]

@@victoriadorgu3207 Great idea Kelli - will get right on that. Your a genius.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Agreed, I think at a point in time, seeing the horrible aspect of narcissists, even demonising them is an essential part of the journey. Where I worry, seeing ourselves as 'the good ones' and not self reflecting, will only lead us into future problems. I feel its a form of denial, equal but opposite to the denial narcissists apply that there is nothing wrong with us. In the same way that I hope narcissists one day ask the questions 'why does this keep happening to me', I think the same needs to apply to codependents who keep ending up in toxic relationships.

[@bubblerings]

@@midlifemeltdown9028 very few are like Sam Vaknin, saying, "Why do these things keep happening to me.. or because of me.." Professor Sam.. 👍🌞

[@anonymouslyanonymous4774]

Very healthy view of the self. I am appreciating your perspective and it’s helping me to work thru my own issues which is the key. Thank you

[@machstem2536]

Calling yourself an empath is narcissistic crazy bullshit, that what I thought the first time I heard it and I was right.

[@vibehigh5280]

In my opinion, if I was aware, if I was educated enough of what i was dealing with, I could have left the rel sooner, and stop enabling.. I didn't know that I was enabling the narc. It is the lack of knowledge and curiosity that kept me stayed a little longer. That is why for me I see the importance of educating people about mental health.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

That's exactly the position I was in, and why I made these videos. Other videos helped me, but only once I was aware of what I was actually dealing with.

[@aperta7525]

I think it's not completely lost why many people think that those who identify as empaths are the most narcissistic people on the planet. It's no good to worship self esteem, or to puff ourselves (universally or individually) up with pride. But after a narcissist trying to tear people down and those who rely on their sense of self from other's validation etc, it's easy to try to self soothe.

[@amorfati8084]

They are evil. Good acts, no pun intended, by them(narcs), are never done altruisticly. It's all for show. It's all about image management. It makes 'them' look and feel good. It's an easy way to trick anyone into believing that they are normal. Actions ultimately speak louder than words. My ex narc owned a dog. She had the dog before we met. Over time I walked the dog more than she did. I quite enjoyed it but it wasn't what I really wanted to do. If I ever expressed that I was fed up with walking her dog I'd get guilt tripped or the passive aggressive BS. Basically I became the arse hole for not wanting to look after her dog. Because I cared about the dog I just had to except the fact that for the dogs well being I was responsible for it. Narcs with dogs serve two purposes. It runs cover for their lack of empathy. Who has pets but doesn't care for them? Ha! And an animal will give unconditional and let's face it!, unquestioning love

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

The dog thing is very interesting. Similar sitaution in my case in that animals were a 'love', but very rarely was much effort put in to looking after them.

[@kerstitekko2257]

Difference is we are not evil.

[@marciahammond9735]

Just a thought, often when people offer free advice some folk take advantage and have no problem 'hogging' the person's time whereas if payment is required folk might be inclined to 'keep it short'

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

I get that. I think I'm just generally against the principal of financially incentivising helping people.

[@lejci38]

It's an interesting topic and i thought about it, too..cause in time i got a bit strange feeling listening abiut empaths etc...and it does sound cheesy in time..but on the other hand: if Sam is truelly a narcissist how would he know about empathy and how it feels to have if, the difference between empathy and codependance etc...? the other thing is the problem of evil in narcissists. I think we in time tend to forget it, cause seing the evil and experiencing it face to face is a horrifiying experience and a burden to live with..so i suppose in time we tend to water down that fact. 3. Fact: They (narcissists) know what they do ( why would they hide it otherwise?) and are highly manipulative, they play on persons' unconscious, "mammelian" psychological structure and functioning. These are things that can never just "be understood and then they disappeare", we don't react to them anymore, cause we understand them. Reaction is engrained in you, you can not controle it. That is something completely different to autistic people that also have problems with feeling empathy and have some agressive behaviours, but still..there is no manipulation there and no element of evil that one senses when you deal with a narcissist. And ..speaking for myself..i didn't see it, i didn't expect it and i didn't want to see it as evil just to smear the narcissist. i just could not believe that this exists, that is why i persisted so long..i could not understand his behaviour, the reasoning behind his acts. And that combining with their tactics resulted in years of figuring out. I'm far from being a saint but after realizing facts about the narcissism and my partner, i felt a lot of compassion for myself and also for other people that may have hurt me or people that i had to close the relationship with for one reasin or the other, but i knew nontheless there was no malice in them, we were just not compatible etc. But seing that darkness in the narcissist..that was mindblowing and hard to swallow.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

There's a lot to take in in this reply:) To summarise, I don't think my message is that we aren't people who have empathy, or that narcissists also have the same empathy. I believe empathy is developed and conditioned positively and negatively throughout early development. For example, some people are able to hunt animals without feeling guilt, whereas others would struggle to kill an animal even if they were starving. It depends how you are conditioned. But, empathy being seen as only a positive thing is over simplifying I think. And empathy without appropriate counter behaviours can lead to bad outcomes. The example I gave in an earlier video, is I have empathy and sympathy for a dog who has been abused and is now dangerous. But, to ignore the reality of the situation that the dog is currently a threat to me, will lead me to being attacked. Empathy needs boundaries. As for narcissists being evil, in my experience I don't think it's that simple. My ex was capable of good, decent things. But, also has a deep, inner wound that gave her an insatiable, selfish need to sooth that wound when it was hurting, regardless of the cost to others. In extreme cases, that could mean doing some terrible things.

[@lejci38]

@@midlifemeltdown9028 Hi, again! :)...I'm sorry for my long disertation and many questions, you're video opened and are questions that I still strugle with..to find answers. Sure, there is a question about empathy and how much one has it and for what, who etc. And as you mention from your experiances...my partner displayed acts of "kindness" and some kind of care, too..that s part of the reason that I thought for a long time that he was just a case of emotionlly stunnted person...some kind of an elephant in a glass shop with good heart. I totally agree that empathy and other criteriums in fact for diagnosing people with NPD and BPD are way too naive, too simplistic. But it's that underlying, the basis from whee they operate that shook me to te core, that is where I find that evil element. I have to add...I'm looking forward to see your older and new videos, I've just discovered your channel... and thank you for your answer! :)

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Don't worry about long questions, I just hope I can answer them well:). And don't forget, I'm not necessarily correct. These are just my opinions. I feel like I've been through a fairly extreme narcissistic experience over a long period of time, and have come out of it to get back to a good place. But, that doesn't mean I'm right. Just trying to share my observations and learnings that have helped me get to a better place. I've probably mentioned it in previous videos, but I would summarise that under extreme pain and stress, we are all capable of fairly extreme 'evil' acts. The difference I believe is that Narcissists are in a continuous state of pain and stress compared to non-NPD sufferes. So they are continuously acting out to deal with that. Depending on how wounded they are, that constant pain might be more severe than others, leading them to more frequent and extreme behaviour.

[@taranicole3457]

@@midlifemeltdown9028 I have saw that there is newer research saying that there could be a genetic role of having more empathy.

[@cristinoestrada9865]

Awesome outstanding I too am a survivor of a 15-year covert narcissistic marriage I also am starting a KZbin channel men's covert recovery his men to firsthand have experienced this abuse I think it's important did we share our story I see so many women what channels trying to explain the relationship but nobody can truly describe experience like a person who's lived it you doing outstanding job I love where you're coming from your heart is right your mind is right God bless you I'm subscriber God has not put it on everybody's heart to have a channel I'm so grateful and thankful for all the wonderful people they helped me get through the most unbelievable devastating punishing heartbreaking reality that I lived I lost everything my career alienated from my sons put in the penitentiary you know but I like you I'm a survivor I truly believe so many men and women take their own lives I almost did so many people never even discover what they've gone through we're lucky that God opened are eyes and and delivered us

[@glamgodess9643]

I am not a psychologist, so I stand to be corrected. Can codependent recognize Narcissists in a room, a meeting? Can they stand up to Narcissists and ask them questions and demand answers? Can codependent not be controlled? Are they independent? Can codependents let go of toxic relationships, situations, people again and again. Can they have compassion for themselves, courage to leave toxic relationships? What I know is they stay in unhealthy relationships and complain to everyone about their partners but won't go anywhere. If that is codependency, no, I am not

[@ceilconstante7813]

I'm burnt out on channels that constantly pump out heavily advertised content. I've been studying the topic for 8 yrs to learn all I can. I grew up surrounded by them but didn't know there was a name for it. I like Ross Rosenberg's term: self love deficit disorder. No one is a saint! We all have done wrongs. The difference is a kind hearted person who's known a lot of hurt and didn't have anywhere to turn wants to help someone who's hurting. A Narc gets off on hurting someone till they completely destroy their victim. Sam Vaknin has a lot of great information but he's also a liar, abuser and he feels superior.

[@Jay-rv4ee]

I came across this channel when searching for Sam vaknin's latest videos. I chanced upon NPD only through those channels which emphasized on 'altruism' and 'empathy', I must confess. I understood I was a victim. But then, in the course of my journey of empowerment, I understood that my victim mentality wasn't helping me at all. I "graduated" to Sam Vaknin 😂 And I must say I am a huge fan of his. More power to you. Looking forward to seeing more of your insights as well. Happy New Year 💐❤

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Glad you have graduated as you put it. Good luck with the new year!

[@holly1725]

I think the videos are helpful along with reading, as when at first reeling from it all, they are a lifeline of reassurance and validation. I like your content as you have new slants and thoughts. I have moved away from many channels now. Naturally. Over the last few years I have personally come to some sort of space, where I feel both the over giver (enabler) and over taker (narc) have similar initial trauma- their inherent nature or sensitivity !? Means they respond with different coping mechanisms to survive. I remember as a child just feeling the pain of those around me in my own body and wanting to alleviate that- so I became the fixer. Obviously on some level I also found this (and this only) brought me approval. This became my conditioned and then compulsive response. I would then automatically be the enabler to others. This was my comfort zone until I woke up to myself after a very toxic narc. My sister however created a different way of surviving. She took the fight flight path where as I took the flight or fawn path. Maybe both of us froze out our true authentic selves!?! I see clearly now the life path we both chose - yet we were two little girls: both deserving of feeling okay. This is where my compassion now comes in. My sister outsources all her energy, identity in a constant toxic cycle. And I chose friendship after friendship that replicated my childhood comfort pattern, until now. I’m rambling. But so much to express. Yes, I see the taker energy as self absorbed even sadistic in its need to sustain life. But mostly I now feel compassion for humanity. I feel we are more than this and I think the collective is waking up and wanting to find true authentic self care and connection to self, then other: We can do this. Appreciative of your thoughts and time. Please keep making the vids for as long as you feel comfortable as you are bringing new insight 😊🌻

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Your replied here feel very similar to where my thoughts are. The struggle I have is how I developed the traits I have. I come from divorced parents, but in probably the most healthy way it can possibly be. Maybe it's from seeing my mother struggle her whole life to make ends meet, I'm not sure. Interestingly, my sister also has different issues to me that I'd argue are equally as damaging to her, but manifest in a totally different way. I feel the same now though, not anger, not regret, just a realisation that we are all struggling to find a centre of balance due to damage we have taken in the past.

[@holly1725]

Midlife Meltdown yes 😊🌻

[@ethanschiltz7305]

Empaths are real, we are just not what you think we are. I'm no co dependent either. Sam Vaknin is a Narcissist, I've read his work and agree with a lot of it and I've seen his recent video on this, and as much as I would love to agree with him on this matter the information is simply false

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Hi Ethan, I don't know your particular situation, and my video isn't meant to berate anyone, rather to provoke what I think is helpful to those who have found themselves in toxic relationships. As someone who spent two decades in a relationship with a Narcissist, I know when I look back at my own behaviour and issues, I can be hugely critical, and realise there were so many issues that a 'normal' person would have never endured. And this isn't a criticism, but at first, I found it easy to think of myself as the 'good', compassionate one. But over time, I had to realise that this was what I wanted to believe because it was easier for me. The reality was far more difficult, but ultimately much more useful to me.

[@machstem2536]

Keep confabulating

[@commonsenseneedtobepractic1861]

Insightful and articulate very well ...

[@ayeshaakber3996]

Very useful speech.. thank you so much.

[@emmanewton1482]

I agree with everything you said except the bit about people that monetise their challenges or offer coaching services and charge a fee. I see where you are coming from on that but I think that KZbinrs that spend their time and effort and share their knowledge to help others should be respected by monetary compensation. Just like a psychologist or docter wouldn’t work for free why should anyone feel bad about asking to be payed for their time and services

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

I generally agree. I don't have a problem with someone being compensated for their time and effort, particularly if they are producing something of value to others. But, I don't like the incentive it creates to continue to keep people engaged. I hope if these videos are helping someone going through a similar situation to mine, that they pass through it as quickly as possible to the point where they don't need to watch my videos.

[@mymy1646]

I feel like Narcissists and codependents are different sidee of the same coin. This is why I say that. Both Narcissists and codependents in my opinion struggle with having a strong sense of self and they both look outside of themselves often for validation, affection, attention, etc. They don't have a healthy internal reference point and are unable to regulate their own self esteem without the help of other people(well atleast a codependent can't until they really start working on themselves and address the issues) - so what happens is that the codependent is addicted to the validation, attention and affection that the Narcissist gives to them, even though its insincere and is just a method to get their own needs met which are getting attention aswell but also admiration and being idealised, and they use manipulation and other tactics to get those needs met. That's my take on it! I know this video was made over two years ago now so I don't know if you read the comments anymore. If you do though, I'd be curious to hear your take on my theory!

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

I would 100% agree with you re: being different sides of the same coin. I think this is one of the key things I've learned about myself over the years.

[@protectthebillofrights93]

I too struggle with codependent issues and had a long relationship with a narcissist. I would warn that I believe that hitting rock bottom causes narcissistic mortification, after which they rebuild the false self and start the cycle all over again with a new person(s) , Or even with a long time, suffering partner, who is still clinging to the shared fantasy.. There is always a danger to the toxicity of false hope, if they are truly a narcissist. Sometimes we think that if we change our enabling ways that they will crash, burn, and come back to us someday healed. I spent some time in Al-Anon and wonder how many of these people are dealing with alcoholics or drug addicts that also have a narcissistic personality disorder. I saw good people who had been hanging in there for decades with a spouse or significant other. Of course, it is their choice, but I think sometimes the NPD is the real cause, and the alcohol and drugs are just things that the narcissist uses to deal with chronic or occasional narcissistic injury.

[@spiritualdoorkeeperproject8997]

I feel that you need to still find out who you are i say this in kindness Sam Vaknin can only help you in the logical mind and he is good at what he does but will always hide his real spirit from you as all narcs do ...he knows....as we know though our lord jesus christ... may the lord guide you Amen

[@vibehigh5280]

Correct!

[@AmineOuldKaci]

I know an empath, they do exist and they are naive. and she is also a highly sensitive person. Protect these people.

[@di3486]

No, we don’t need to be protected, we need to grow a pair and stop feeling special or vulnerable.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

I agree. I think my video missed the point a little. I believe I am quite empathic, in that I genuinely feel like I feel other people's pain, and would rather absorb it on their behalf. But I just don't believe it should be seen as purely a virtuous trait. If anything, I'd say it's a child like trait that hasn't fully developed, equal, but opposite to the underdeveloped emotional state of someone diagnosed with NPD.

[@godekchen9658]

Don't think so....

[@miakascreations]

I don't think it is inherently wrong for you to monetize your channel. KZbin is putting ads on it whether you are benefiting from them or not. You are providing a service that took time and effort and giving real life examples. If you can financially benefit from that, why not? As long as you don't forget the true purpose of this channel and start filling it with unhelpful and useless fluff. That's my take on it anyway.

[@miakascreations]

I also wanted to say that your personal insight and reflection was very useful for me. Some of the other channels seem to pump out the same type of content without a diversified view of the narcissist. Everyone is different and reacts different and have different goals and different forms of supply.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

It's difficult. This channel seems to have been getting a lot of views lately, so have been getting lots of people contacting me. I'll proably make a few more videos. I still feel a little uncomfortable with monetisation, but you make a good point that there are ads on the videos already. If anything, it'll help cover costs and won't ever be a money maker. I just want to make sure I'm only making videos because I feel a video might be useful. And thank you for the kind words.

[@miakascreations]

@@midlifemeltdown9028 KZbin is starting to recognize your content and has put it as a recommended channel. You will start to see a lot.

[@kerstitekko2257]

I think we are better. Non narcissists.

[@MantisFootball]

Never thought I'd see the day where Eminem is producing videos on narcissism. You know he's serious about it too because he's not even rhyming!

[@kasuabhinav]

Sam is my favourite

[@dianetracey4985]

You are absolutely correct that there is bad advice out there and that is exactly how I view your opinion of what empathy is and your viewpoint of people who are or have been in a relationship with a narcissist. I completely disagree with your video.

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

Well thank you for taking the time to watch and reply. My opinion is just that, my opinion and not all will find it useful. I'd would honestly be interested in disussing more about what you disagree with if you'd like to. Not to try to change your mind, simply to learn from other people's perspectives.

[@jiahbedalynx6233]

he is dumb like what makes him know whats going on in everyones head apparity every ones thinks the same way tipical narse him self

[@jiahbedalynx6233]

Deny deny deny cuz it makes u feel safe on the inside🖖🖕🏻

[@midlifemeltdown9028]

I actually don't know what point you're trying to make.