The Necessity of Sacrifice in the Making of the Men and Women who can Build a Civilization

Understanding John Vervaeke's Advent of the Sacred with Jonathan Pageau • Understanding John Ver...
Esther Meek. All Knowing is Knowing With • The Modernist Way of K...
‪@JordanBPeterson‬ Beyond Dawkins | Jonathan Pageau | EP 496 • Beyond Dawkins | Jonat...
Wokal Distance on Christ Returning to the Public Discourse and the Deconstruction of Naturalism • Wokal Distance on Chri...
‪@transfigured3673‬ Ashley Lande - From Psychedelic Religion to Faith Jesus - Her Story • Ashley Lande - Her Sto...
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[@TheDrb27]

Ashley was so on point when talking about psychedelics. I’ve seen that pattern play out a lot. The ability to have more perspectival knowing comes at a cost of pride and being unable to participate. Also that somehow you have special knowledge that you can’t articulate so instead you want them to experience it too. Misery loves company.

[@rachaelgibson]

In his lecture (response to first question) Paul Kingsnorth points out that the heavenly Jerusalem that comes down in the book of Revelation is given to us. "We don’t build it. It’s not our civilization, it’s something that God gives us…The city is given by [God], it’s not built by you.” It’s also true that God has given us a sacrifice and that sacrifice is Jesus Christ. “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” When we’re trying to make our own sacrifices and build our own thing, we’re not seeing the one perfect sacrifice that God has already given and already accepted.

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

I really am loving these new streams of thinking lately. I just love it so much.

[@chezispero3533]

Good morning Paul and Shabbat Shalom

[@athanasiuspernath9851]

If only the excess mediocre biomass would consent to being burnt. Amirite guys.

[@williambranch4283]

Composting is better ;-)

[@vangoghsear8657]

Peterson has his famous clip of choosing your sacrifice. It seems in this video Paul it’s a different meaning, which is fine, but requires clarification. I think positive sacrifice so to speak is about sacrificing time. I could sacrifice money and health to order an overpriced pizza or I could sacrifice my time at the grocery store to cook something healthy for my self.

[@giuliosiciliano]

My dumb comment is : now that «restricted mode» has been activated on the network of my workplace, this is how far behind I am on PVK videos. Apart from that, great video. Thanks for the food for thought.

[@Smithistory]

I've come to the conclusion that the whole world is really built on sacrificial love at every level.

[@j.whomusic]

yep. anything else is ultimately revealed as tragedy in vain.

[@deviantfish2711]

This video is a trip to listen to without watching.

[@psychnstatstutor]

19:04 Reverence for realness share by VvK has helped me better understand Walter Otto's writings about the sacredness of the real to Homeric times Greeks. Appreciating the mundane, or what we moderns consider mundane; that part where Dawkins says to JBP (paraphrased) "you're bringing the sacred down to the everyday"...that's the point isn't it? cf. many traditional First Nations relationships with the rest of the world, Ancient Egyptians of some epochs, the paths of the tree of life, Jung's perspective on how to relate to life ...

[@MarcInTbilisi]

Oh Jordan! It's not a giving up, it's a letting go.

[@athanasiuspernath9851]

Encomiums to suffering coming from those who do not experience it. If one's horizon is interminable suffering and privation with only a downward tendency, what is one to be thankful for.

[@williambranch4283]

Life is eternal. If you don't abandon your misery, it could be habit forming ;-)

[@chrishoward8473]

@@athanasiuspernath9851 I don't know... It seems like both suffering and want have a way of redefining themselves upward to always be in the frame. Rich people don't have enough and healthy people have pain. There seems to be a POV aspect to it.

[@WarInHeaven]

"Religion is not about the meaning of life, but the meaning of death"

[@williambranch4283]

He knows! Got telos?

[@WarInHeaven]

"Revolution is not a means but an absolute end, and society collapses towards post-bourgeois community not through growth but in sacrificial festivity"

[@williambranch4283]

Robespierre and DeSade are brothers.

[@desolasolalexluna5114]

“Keep pumping until the water runs clean” so true (in my opinion :)

[@cinhofilms]

It also may be prophetic in relation to how I have, earlier today before I heard the idea, started to think about how my nasal spray might help my sinusitis. I didn't realise where the lower holes in the nostrils were that lead to the sinuses, it took another KZbin video to show me how to use the spray properly.

[@InkLore-p3h]

You need to have ChatGPT teach you about Goedel’s Incompleteness Theorems, which preceded the unknowability discussed in science and psychology by some time.

[@gilscott1733]

Sacrifice is capital investment

[@GrimGriz]

around 5 minutes in where you say the back and forth between network and background sounds like relevance realization I see as occurring as a process in the Intentionality Network

[@alohm]

12:00 You cannot map relevance realization because it is persecpectival. The Basho of Nishitani. Mentioned by Vervaeke. Basho in Japanese is made of two characters: one is the person prepared for action, the other character is the place of action. We cannot map relevance because we must be there to evaluate its relevance and the necessary path thru. It is personal, not phantasy but perspectival. 18:00 This aligns with the idea that relevance is not a fixed concept but something dynamic, personal, and context-dependent. In this sense, it resonates deeply with both Vervaeke’s ideas and the work of figures like Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty, who emphasized the embodied, context-driven nature of human understanding and action. The path we take, and the relevance of what we encounter, is contingent upon where and how we are situated in our lived experience-thus, it is an experiential and perspectival phenomenon

[@Alex-ht1oq]

I put this video on when I was looking for a book that I just couldn’t find anywhere, and I had written notes about it with the book title and I couldn’t find my notes either! I opened a box that had been sitting around for months which was filled with books, and exactly - and I swear to God - exactly at 19:00 minutes when John Vervaeke talks about resiliency I pulled the book out. The title? ‘The Age of Resilience’ by Jeremy Rifkin. The book itself is actually about ecology/nature and economics but it seems that this is some sort of sign…

[@williambranch4283]

A sign you have too many books ;-)

[@Alex-ht1oq]

@ probably :)

[@vangoghsear8657]

You choose your own heartbreak. Chastity is this way.

[@WhiteStoneName]

40:38 hmmm. Concept of sin and forgetting/ignorance of your inner divinity… “Receive with meekness the Implanted Word which is able to save your souls…” - The Bible

[@WhiteStoneName]

@ Logos. Your inner Logos.

[@Parsons4Geist]

17:35-18:00 the most perfect example of absolute knowing/ absolute Unknowing Substance is subject Relevance realization is the ability to retroactively affect space and time. John advances the German idealist project

[@williambranch4283]

I was the recipient of an accidental near drowning in the ocean as a young adult. At the time, I wasn't Christian, but decades later after I became a Christian, I realized it was my adult baptism. Retroactive sacramentalism ;-))

[@Christus-totalis]

24:57 Jesus “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.” The cross is the tzimtzum of God by which the universe was created. Reality was created by sacrifice “ All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” No cross no creation

[@williambranch4283]

Death is the telos of life.

[@anselman3156]

Not so. The cross is the remedy for sin which ruined a good creation.

[@williambranch4283]

@anselman3156 Pauline

[@anselman3156]

@@williambranch4283 Biblical

[@Christus-totalis]

@@anselman3156 The universe was founded in ontological death, darkness, void. This is biblical, Genesis is High Christology. Christ is the center of all things. What day does the earth(adam) rise from the death waters?.....

[@alohm]

52:30 Fritz and Jung spoke on this. In German Gestalt. It means creation, more than sum of its parts. Our Identity is not one aspect of who we are. Our nation, our birth place, our parents, language, thoughts.. All make up the complex of who and what we are. Perspectival meaning and relevance realisation in people and places.

[@williambranch4283]

Life is not about you.

[@samuelewing8935]

Your mic was very faint in this video when you turned it to video playback the feed was a third to fifty percent louder and there's usually no significant variation.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I fixed it a bit in.

[@samuelewing8935]

@PaulVanderKlay You did maybe I shouldn't make comments half way through the video :)

[@alohm]

48:45 you described an actual practice in the East. Imagine our mess. Look into how gross and temporary our bodies are, and in our existence as well as our environs.

[@williambranch4283]

Elephant poo is heaven to maggots. Choose to be a maggot ;-))

[@anselman3156]

You could have made more of Sam's guest's testimony of Christ's sacrifice in her quoting of the hymn about my sin is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more. I will say it again, the missing P word around here is Propitiation.

[@williambranch4283]

Moderns don't use big words.

[@anselman3156]

@@williambranch4283 They don't seem to like the simple word sin either.

[@williambranch4283]

@@anselman3156 Damn yourself? We won't know until Last Judgement aka telos ... which sheepfold we belong to. Otherwise your creed and liturgy are pagan magiks.

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

19:00 gravity as a marker of morality

[@williambranch4283]

Levity is more fun than gravity - Mary Poppins

[@clintd3476]

1:38 “There are no facts without the world that they live in.” Saying ‘it is a fact that there are no facts without the world that they live in’ seems a strange tautology.

[@williambranch4283]

Don't be a strange-er ;-)

[@setsen337]

Privileged people living comfortable lives who enthusiastically prescribe suffering for others, particularly for those who have less than them- just normal Christian/conservative stuff.

[@chrishoward8473]

​@@vivienneb6199given Peterson's extended illness, this seems like a very strange line of inquiry.

[@BMoore335]

Everybody copes in their own way, for Peterson, it’s through self help and mythology, and so he veers frequently into heresy and polemics, a condition we share in substance if not in form. But yes, Jesus without the “magic tricks” is not my Jesus.

[@alohm]

36:30 - the grief is a weird thing - but everything is about her it seems - the oneness was not satisfying for her, she chanted Sanskrit she didn't understand - that is her issue. I had a comment on a video about Ahimsa. It was a westerner: that their understanding of 'do not harm' comes from someone they know. Who translates Jainist texts(not how they work) from Sanskrit(not their language) and Ahimsa means this.. They define ahimsa as do no harm to non-humans. i mean what about us, not Jainist again. They have spent two decades living their life based on what someone mistakenly told them about what Jainism believed about veganism... That is a sad person without identity desperate to carve one for themselves, rather than discover their true self.

[@williambranch4283]

It is the dawning of the Cali-fornian, Cali-fornian, Cali-forniaaaan!

[@deviantfish2711]

The synergy of western psychedelic experiences with Eastern philosophy is something I find very fascinating. And I agree that we are misinformed about these civilizations far away. I think the exotic nature of the "experience" pushes people to substitute everything mundane in their lives with this exotic pursuit.

[@alohm]

4:10 - A series of letters between William James and CS Pierce might be timely here. They posit truth is an agreement.

[@williambranch4283]

That is how Pontius Pilatus saw it when he met with Jesus. But Pontius was unable to walk a mile in Jesus' sandals.

[@alohm]

Yes, it is about overcoming. Research shows that lasting memories are the ones hard-won through challenge, not easy answers. This aligns with the concept of 'atrophy or growth.' Just as muscles strengthen with resistance, our character and understanding deepen through struggle. Facing challenges helps create individuals resilient enough to contribute to civilization-building, as they learn to embrace sacrifice and overcome adversity.

[@williambranch4283]

I am given EMDR by my counselor to overcome the PTSD of those adverse memories.

[@alohm]

@@williambranch4283 EMDR is only one of many protocols that heal. EMDR became famous because one doctor tested it himself and sees benefit. Therapist love to do this. Using a thesaurus to differentiate rather than truths. Like meaning versus knowing. But we need many paths to wholeness, not one for each persona even - maybe many per?

[@larrypullum9410]

Good podcast, Paul: good and significant development of ideas throughout. It made me wish that I was there to speak with you directly in its succession of ideas; to connect them both to scripture and myth, or which is to say, to our now recorded history, as well as to our once purely oral prehistory, at once, in matters of Christ, forming the very foundations of all human history and culture as the essentially cosmological no less than calendared conception implied by the heaven and the earth. The “hard/fast line” of “network” and “background”, is the very vital question, both, individually and often group or species wise, of life and death, pleasure or pain. It is reflected, visually, by a dream catcher - no less than by Jacob’s dream of a ladder centered thereon - laid horizontal; and like the filtration hydraulically as it were of the impure water coming from a pump - (as noted by Esther Meek) - until it is purified. The vital question of life and death, of course, is essentially what you come to, I think, with Peterson and Pageau and their idolization of sacrifice as a necessary end, without having a clear vision to that end as ultimately a deification of all men, through Christ, himself; and whereby that sacrifice comes to an end - (for the end of the law is Christ to every one that believes) - except in the ritual and symbolic remembrances and wholly gathered affirmations, whereby a body-politic is perpetually reassembled and even annually clothed in its public institutions of Church and State. This is the significance of communion where, in the taking of it, we either know Christ directly as that perpetuated creation of a publicly gathered and assembled body integrating all; or we crucify Christ anew through the class legislated associations merely of the propertied, who then usurp and monopolize all public forums. This hypocrisy of the wealthy and powerful among the propertied in their claim of the Godhead, is Peterson’s overzealous derision of Foucault, as a mere hedonism supposedly of self - rather than that of such class associations of the “beautiful people”, of a meritocracy who think they are a gift by which mankind may be profited, in their “hierarchy of values”. You observed that there was no sacrifice to the shovel of dirt, beginning the building of a church; but there actually is - since such proprietary foundations are enforced by standing armies and police, prisons and Capitol Punishment - and so that Jesus observed that such public buildings were as sepulchers, which outwardly were beautiful, but within were many dead men’s bones. This was a value to Foucault, as he observed the distinction between the public executions of the Middle Ages, as they not only demonstrated a terror employed by rulers, but also often inspired the population to empathy with the sacrifice, and brought popular rebellion, The rise of the penitentiary was a removal of that question of Liberty and Terror in the relation between rulers and people, which put punishment out of the sight of the people at large; and so militated against a popular association and rebellion - even as it rationalized the sins of the propertied in such bourgeois foundations of the marketplace, then made into God, as their own networking, within a background where the people are never gathered - (but imagine they have a public voice in voting for the rich).

[@williambranch4283]

Wall of text ;-(

[@williambranch4283]

Only Higgs bosons have mass!

[@tgrogan6049]

Some fun with "St." C.S. Lewis " I think we must fully face the fact that when Christianity does not make a man very much better, it makes him very much worse…Conversion may make of one who was, if no better, no worse than an animal, something like a devil.” The Letters of C. S. Lewis, ed., W. H. Lewis, (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1966), p. 301.

[@jasons4139]

The category of dragon can contain a dinosaur but the category of dinosaur can not contain dragons.

[@williambranch4283]

Hate speech is illegal in GB ... hope you don't live there ;-)

[@chrishoward8473]

@@tgrogan6049 wow, irony zone ahead.

[@williambranch4283]

Iron? Goes with irenic ... steel from heaven at meteorite. Rather sacred.

[@williambranch4283]

Valley of the Dolls ... is what this lady reminds me of, and Twin Peaks

[@davidvogel2710]

@18:46 😮 😮 😮 What!? The pendulum will feel like Sparta when it swings the other way.

[@williambranch4283]

If you know physics (famous MIT lecture) the return of the pendulum will miss you by just enough ;-)

[@cinhofilms]

At 13 :48, whilst it's true that as creatures we can't tame the system there is a reasonable argument that proposes a way to account for the system from within the system which is what John Haldane described as the Wittgensteinian-Thomistic account of concept formation. Haldane noted that in order to come up with worded abstract concepts such as lion or predator we have to be taught to do so by someone who already judges, through their worded definition, abstract concepts to be significant, that is to say meaningful. That demonstrably takes place through the educational repetition of a word associated with an object and multiple objects that enrich a pattern of existence, which observably entails a generational regress that finds its ontological source, like everything else, in the absolute, the absolute judge - so that it can be said that in the beginning was the Word, the Logos, the logical judge who logically (obediently) expresses the logical desire of His Father who defines reality into its logical relations through logical love in a way that takes creation seriously for what it is in a serious relationship of love. God's grace is the logical gift of a logical implication and relation. Jesus is the Logos made flesh and relates perfectly logically in a way that respects creatures so that what He says to them is appropriate. Haldane feeds Wittgenstein conclusions about the social context of language into the structure of some of Thomas Aquinas's Ways to argue for God's existence in the co-authored debate Atheism and Theism (2nd Edition).

[@williambranch4283]

Usually called ... good parenting ;-)

[@alohm]

6:30 I read a book recently that makes interesting insights to how we perceive the world - not as fixed things but as shades of patterns and categories that we refine as per the need - perspectival and relevance... The mind can be thought of as a "predictive matrix"-a model that helps us interpret our environment by anticipating sensory inputs and matching them to learned patterns. This draws from Karl Friston's predictive processing theory, where our brain operates by continuously generating hypotheses about what we expect to see, hear, and experience. This allows us to operate on the level of pre-conscious patterns rather than focusing on isolated details, similar to the Gestalt idea where we recognize a complex entity, like a cat, rather than its individual features. The brain, then, isn’t just reacting to the world; it’s actively generating a kind of probabilistic map, adjusting as new information comes in. In this way, perception is a complex dance between prediction and reality, where we interact with a world shaped both by direct experience and by our brain’s anticipatory model.

[@williambranch4283]

I react to PVK videos based on my prior relevance realization, don't you? ;-)

[@tgrogan6049]

1:10 "All categories are dependent on that which are not facts" Tell that the Carl Linnaeus. The classifications used in Biology are based on nothing but facts. Morphology, DNA etc. Jonathan as usual does not know what the hell he is talking about.

[@williambranch4283]

It initially takes superficial categorization to sort things. With genetics we can now judge on better criteria,

[@issaavedra]

I think you are missing the point. The criteria for the category is not a "fact". You observe the phenomena, you declare an identity, and then you collect facts that support the identity. Think of the differences between species, for example: why don't we say that different breeds of dog are not different species? We know that there is inter-species breeding, but we still decide that they all fall into the category of 'dog'.

[@RightInChrist]

When we gonna start thinking about community together PVK?

[@williambranch4283]

Be all the farmer you can be - Amish

[@RightInChrist]

@@williambranch4283 will there be cake and robots?

[@williambranch4283]

@@RightInChrist People get cake, robots get lube jobs ;-)

[@j.harris83]

First

[@anselman3156]

On the breaking of ground, I think you are confounding labour/effort with sacrifice. Before Adam's Fall, that is, before there was any need for sacrifice, Adam tilled the ground to dress and keep the garden. After the Fall, man's labour became more laborious, and the cursed earth more difficult to manage productively, and that in itself cannot be called sacrifice, but was rather the disciplinary punishment that was to be a check on man's tendency to sin, and a lesson on the unsatisfactory state of things which sin had brought about. Sacrifice, on the other hand, teach the necessity of propitiation of God, pointing towards the one sacrifice which would suffice to make the propitiation to redeem mankind, that of Jesus Christ, God Himself as priest and victim.

[@williambranch4283]

Adam and Eve failed, by growing up, by sinning. We are not trying to return to the infancy of that Garden. My daughter failed to remain a child, I celebrate that painful reality.

[@anselman3156]

@@williambranch4283 They would have grown up better without sinning. Sin is death.

[@williambranch4283]

@anselman3156 Death isn't the opposite of Life, being English is ;-)

[@anselman3156]

@@williambranch4283 You make some silly assertions.

[@williambranch4283]

@@anselman3156 I don't make dogmatic theology assertions because I am not a dog. Catman!

[@williambranch4283]

Telos ... our final telos is the relevance realization we all dread but can't avoid!

[@alohm]

our telos is to discover that, ethos is its value?

[@alohm]

bring in an openness to continually refine what we find meaningful as we go, making telos a dynamic pursuit guided by the values-or ethos-that we hold most deeply.

[@williambranch4283]

@@alohm Ethos is culture on an individual level ... ethnos is the social form. Today we have too much ethnos and not enough ethos.

[@williambranch4283]

@@alohm Ethos is our style ... TLC be stylin' ;-)

[@j.harris83]

Ha… I just realized Esther Meek served as Visiting Professor of Apologetics for Redeemer Seminary in Dallas, TX, Were I went too… sadly I did not have her as my Prof.

[@anselman3156]

She might have had you thinking that the Lord Jesus was proposing to be the Samaritan woman's 7th husband, who would give her advice on how to dress to look her best.

[@j.harris83]

@ the biggest critique I hear from other students was her method of apologetic was to “thinkie talkie” not down to earth enough.

[@anselman3156]

@@j.harris83 I have not been impressed by what I have seen of her here.

[@j.harris83]

@@anselman3156 is that bc she is not anglo catholic enuf? Eat the fish and spit out the bones.

[@williambranch4283]

Trust a Tesla auto-pilot? Blind leading the blind. Pedestrians die from that AI.