The Original Blueprint to Char's Counterattack

[@CheemsBased]

I've been seeing a few comments in regards to High Streamer, and the main reason for me not mentioning it at all in this video is because High Streamer has no relation to Beltorchika's Children. There's been interviews and statements from Yoshiyuki Tomino himself saying so, and in order for misinformation to stop spreading rampant, I might end up making a video confronting said misinfo.

[@primusvsunicron1]

the novel has 2 sequels, the original Hathaway’s Flash Novel and Gaia Gear

[@CheemsBased]

I gotta read Gaia Gear when I can, Hathaway’s novels were a lot better than I could’ve imagined

[@primusvsunicron1]

@ the Gaia Gear novel is currently being translated by ZeonicScans

[@deaconblues1823]

Gaia Gear isn't a sequel to Hathaway's Flash.

[@ShinetoZeroX]

Actually it sort of is and sort of isn't given when it takes place

[@deaconblues1823]

@@ShinetoZeroX The novel doesn't have specific timeframe, Tomino is very clear about that. He's also quite clear on the fact that he started the project as a means to avoid corporate meddling and escape the confines of Gundam (even though he ultimately failed in the end). There is nothing in the series that ties itself to either of the entries. Besides, Gaia Gear was penned before both Hathaway and BC even started. And no, Kenneth didn't start Metatron.

[@GeroniMomartinezMG]

Char...wanted amuro to beat him....okay shit bro you just made everything click for me. I've been a fan of gundam for years, and always thought char was just being a vegeta who wanted to fight amuro on equal terms...but omg how could i not see it before now... thank you for this eye-opener!

[@melodiousautumn9672]

This is a really well made movie, despite having watched and read both versions of CCA I never noticed half of this stuff, it was cool to learn how in-depth its story goes.

[@DrForrester87]

I've always felt Char never had any intention of surviving. He would die thus atoning for his sins while forcing Amuro to either see the error of his ways and step into becoming the one to guide humanity into space or to continue to sit back knowing then everyone killed had died for nothing. He flat out tells all of Neo Zeon at the end of his address at Sweetwater that once they've succeeded he will be able to join his father. His father is dead. Once Axis falls, Char has no purpose anymore. He has achieved forcing mankind into outer space but as we see all the way back in Zeta when both Blex and Hayato suggested he become leader of the Federation but he never even tries all the way up to how he describes the political aspects of his roll as the leader of Neo Zeon, he doesn't want to be his father. He, despite being a Newtype, is a product and creature of the old system and has no place in the world he strives to create much less any right to be its leader. But he can be it's martyr.

[@fattiger6957]

I agree Char always intended to die. But I would go further in that I don't think he cared about anything other than dying in a glorious duel against his greatest rival. Everything just seems set up. And the way he treated Nanai and Quess (being completely insincere while manipulating them for his own ends) could be a reflection of how he saw everything. I think he was so broken from the events in his life that he lost the ability to feel any love for anyone or anything. He was a fighter and he just wanted to go out fighting.

[@DerpyBurps]

I enjoyed the Beltorchika's Children manga's version of events as they used Beltorchika, instead of shoehorning Chan with insufficient time for her char development. However, what ruined it for me is the Geara Dogas not helping push back axis and retreating to the Rewloola instead, and the omission of their hillarious final exchange.

[@Fesqueda04]

You say you could go on about Beltorchika and Amuro for an hour like its a bad thing, I personally would love to see a deep dive into Beltorchika's children. (Yes, I'm biased because its my favorite story of U.C cannon)

[@CheemsBased]

It’s something I’d love to do in the future for sure. I was just hoping that this video specifically was going to be a short recommendation video with some facts and stuff, then it turned out to be more work than I thought 😅

[@Fesqueda04]

@CheemsBased well it worked, I click IMMEDIATELY when I saw it.

[@DejaVuae86]

High Streamer is the original novel that the movie and Bel's children are based on. The Mecha Designs were very different from the final movie but the overall plot and characters are Largely the same although the novel was able to expand on certain character's inner thoughts and POV. Beltorchika's Children is a novel based on an expanded version of High Streamer. When Sunrise/Bandai told tomino they wanted to adapt High Streamer into a movie he added some additional details to fill more of the script, in particular, having Beltorchika be married to Amuro and have him be a family man. The execs rejected this idea on the basis that it wasn't "appealing to youngsters" to have the MC be a dad. Tomino eventually released this version as a Novel and it's also gotten a manga adaptation. It features new Mobile suits as well, mainly the Hi-Nu Gundam replacing Nu-Gundam for Amuro and the Nightingale replacing the Sazabi for Char. Finally, Char's Counterattack is the final movie we know today. It is essentially a straight adaptation of the original High Streamer Novel but with updated mech designs.

[@deaconblues1823]

Most of what you say isn't true. Hi-Streamer isn't what the movie is based on. It started out as another project with the intention of being its own sprawling thing. Tomino laments about the fact that it ended up being associated with the film and it's defacto prequel in the final volume. Beltorchika was born as a special project for Kadokawa after the fact because they dropped the ball and didn't have a tie-in to the film. It's based on his original draft idea for the film, yes, but it has zero ties. Hi-Streamer tells a very different story from the film and has divergent plot points. Give them a read.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

​@@deaconblues1823 zero ties to to high streamer or CCA?

[@deaconblues1823]

@@DSan-kl2yc If we are being technical, none of them are tied to one another. The two novels and film are all independent. Hi-Streamers plot is vastly different from the film, plus I don't get how people think it's based on the novel when the actual film portion wasn't published until AFTER the prequel parts were serialized. Baffling. Beltorchika's Children, while it does reuse the original Amuro married idea, from the editor of Kadokawa, it sounds like he had several draft ideas for the film and delivered that novel very quickly to them. That and Hi-Nu never appeared in the novel. That is another fan misconception.

[@GeorgeK340]

I remember a page from the manga that Char talking about Artesia (his sister) in his final moment instead of talking about Lalah. I like that better than the film version. It's like, that is appropriate for him and the story itself.

[@fattiger6957]

In an ideal world Sayla would have actually been featured in CCA. It was truly a loss that Sunrise just didn't recast the role if the actress couldn't make time.

[@chinito77]

I honestly wish they make an animated version of Beltorchika Children. Surprised they didnt with UC Engage an all its alternate history. I personally dislike CCA because of Quess and Gyune.

[@TheDrewsperience]

Char was supposed to be in ZZ and act as a guerrilla commander again vs neo Zeon. CCA would not have been able to happen if char was scrapped from ZZ.

[@numgun]

Banger of a video! It made me appreciate CCA more. I watched the movie as a teenager and it seemed too complex and chaotic for me to understand what even happen nor why it happened, but this made me go "Ooooohh!".

[@narutoman876]

Thank you for making such a well thought out video on the characters and themes of Gundam. This community has been nothing but lore slop and MS power scaling for so long I gave up hope on there ever being any meaningful discussions of the substance of the franchise

[@makvande576]

Spend 16 hours at your local Wal Mart just people watching she tell me Char is wrong.

[@slimeestation]

Cheems talking about Char's Counterattack? Hell yea!

[@loungelevel100]

My favorite mecha furry has comeback from the dead

[@SleggarLawlz]

SUPERB 🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@aitoranimations3612]

Would love a full essay vid about char and amuro

[@Lios959]

Have you ever checked out the original mobile suit Gundam novelization?

[@CheemsBased]

I’ve read a good chunk of it a year or two ago, I enjoyed what I read so far but I haven’t continued it since then

[@shauqiharris2772]

Ah yes, my favorite Gundam Movie. It's a divine masterpiece that aged like fine wine and still stands the test of time 36 years later.

[@kaijuwatchesYT]

Okay gang, let's do it, let's make Cheems analyze Z, it's time.

[@hmmdoh7835]

Quests is like those college students now days, mind washed to think fighting a war to keep the world peace then end up the world at war…..

[@derricklung]

Thanks! OMG I totally missed the plot of CCA all these years!!!! lol

[@justincholos.balisang6884]

we also have Hi Streamer

[@fattiger6957]

I don't think that has ever been translated, so non-Japanese fans are out of luck.

[@deaconblues1823]

@@fattiger6957 All three volumes have been translated.

[@ShinetoZeroX]

There is Definitely, No need to convince me to check this out. Seeing how I always tell people. I prefer this as my actual representation of counter attack. In my brain, it will forever be the only counter attack, it just starts to be messy a little when I have to tell people to watch halfway since they change halfway to fit more with the movie.

[@jayhoffmayer8581]

I would like a full in depth look at the manga and all its differences

[@comicmoniker]

To be honest, I've never quite been able to forgive Beltorchika for... not being Sayla. I know it wasn't possible to bring Sayla's voice actress back and that a lot of people don't like Amuro x Sayla in the first place, but I do and I wasn't wild about some other (and in my opinion, less cool) blonde woman showing up and immediately going after Amuro. Maybe if I read this story, it'll force me to finally give her a fair shot

[@AlexRoivas]

Chars Counterattack should have been two movies long and Gundam F91 should have been a trilogy. You needed that to be able to flesh out all the new characters and story. What a shame

[@justincholos.balisang6884]

Beard Noah is Best Bright

[@k.Miles789]

Camile becoming a quiet dude

[@k.Miles789]

and I always wished char stayed with the good guys

[@narutoman876]

@@k.Miles789 Char was never a "good" guy. Beltorchika points it out plainly in Zeta.

[@k.Miles789]

@@narutoman876 I know, but I wished he was

[@chimbloanimation9242]

Where turn a video???

[@CheemsBased]

I’m still working on it, it became a lot more challenging than I thought 😭

[@Lightspeeds]

Okay, can we adapt this manga as an ova then? I'd watch this over whatever Requiem for Vengeance is.

[@fattiger6957]

I wouldn't mind that. I feel like the storytelling of CCA was the film's major flaw (too much for too little time) I think the story needs to be retold with more time to breathe. Maybe then we can finally get a good official Nightingale model that stacks up to the MG and RG Hi Nu

[@MinaMoon4664]

I like to imagine that while the film was very much Char's story, the novel balances the focus between them by highlighting the contrast between how the past several conflicts have affected them both. The main reason speculated as to why they demanded the movie be more like the High Streamer novel was probably because Amuro being a family man would have made the ending a little more tragic than they were hoping. Which makes, but leave it to execs in suits running the anime industry to be averse to taking risks.

[@fattiger6957]

Gundam isn't exactly a happy go lucky franchise. One of my major complainst about UC is how it is just endless misery and hatred. Only a few years earlier, Sunrise ended Zeta by killing everyone off and having the hero go insane. I doubt Sunrise was ever against a tragic ending in Gundam.

[@melodiousautumn9672]

​@@fattiger6957 I completely agree with your point about UC having so much endless suffering, I haven't seen every piece of media about it, but I know that it goes long enough that some of the entries with more optmistic endings about how humanity can change and live in peace feel shallow, like, Amuro dying to save earth didn't change a thing because we see that in F91 things are still the same, the federation is still corrupt, extremists promising freedom still commit atrocities and children keep finding themselves fighting in wars they shouldn't be a part of. I know it is realistic and my comment is more like a rant, but still, can't help, but feel like that. I do hear Turn A fixes a bit of it, but I have yet to watch it.

[@deaconblues1823]

They didn't demand the movie be more like the Hi-Streamer novel. The Streamer novels are totally different from the film itself, not to mention that Hi-Streamer started out as something totally unrelated to the film itself in the first place. Tomino would later lament that the fans ended up shoehorning the 12 chapter initial serialization in as the "prequel" to the film before he continued with another 1.5 volumes worth of material that was different from the film itself. The CCA film everyone knows is NOT based on the novels. It's totally inaccurate.

[@Galvajon]

"longly awaited" wtf

[@acidous]

I think you misrepresent the Char in the movie a little, because you know too much stuff that was added to the gundam franchise later on. As someone who watched everything in the release order, I was really confused by the CCA. Zeta left Char as someone who admited he was wrong in the past and should reform the world, even started becoming friend with amuro. He fights against tyranny, both from federation AND the spacenoids (main reason why he hates Haman is because she repeats the mistakes made by the zabi, not some romance shit from the "deleted affairs" written years later). Then ZZ just totally ignored him, suggesting he hide real mineva so nobody could use her (or he could use her himself). ...and then, out of the blue, CCA happens, Char is bad again, he's the lider of the new Zeon created out of ass and mineva is nowhere to be seen. But he's NOT self-serving when he hurts other people around him - that one thing is actually exactly same as in the manga. He does everything for the sake of his plan of forcing people to move out of the earth, because he belives that by turning everyone into spacenoid there will be no reason to fight anymore. Unfortunately this part of the movie is explained so poorly, that without reading wikipedia you cant really grasp what he wants to achive. Instead, the movie wastes ENORMOUS time on explaining the OYW and his past rivalry with Amuro to the newcomers (its the main reason why Quess and Hathaway are in this movie). Also, there's that infamous line about Lalah, which turns everything into Chars mommy issue out of the blue, making you think that he wasn't even really interested in this spacenoid shit, but he just wanted a pretext to fight amuro once again. I hate the movie for that. ...but this is also the place where the manga shines, because everything is put where it should be. There's still the rivalry, but most important thing is the ideological fight - Char belives that he MUST do what he does, even if he hates it, because otherwise humanity wont change and kill itself before learns the lesson. Amuro belives that we're almost there and humanity can change without forcing it out of earth. In the end, it turns out both were "right" - their struggle creates a phenomenon that turns EVERYONE in the battlefiled into newtypes for a moment. They finally "truly understand each other" and finally get that fighting is pointless, because they're all one human race. And that's why everyone rushes to stop the axis from falling. Movie doesn't explain that at all, just make everything flashy. uff, it looks like I've made an essey myself lol.

[@malachitaylor1579]

Bro, I do not care what anybody else says I feel like A Dish should have been the original movie of all the great action scenes I was kind of disappointed when I first watched the movie I probably love Zeta Gundam to Death my favorite anime series of all time and I was super disappointed that my favorite couple in that show ended up breaking up in the movie and then he just goes on to another girl the worst part about it was that this other girl ended up dying so it all felt pointless but at least I found this manga and oh my gosh I love it so much I'm still waiting for it though.

[@condor777m79]

What even more sad to me that Gundam fans still prefer CCA for any cons that i have with the movie, like they prefer chan or tbought that the final dialogue was more profound than anything the manga had executed. I don't get Gundam fans sometimes

[@DrForrester87]

I prefer Bel simply because CCA gives no reason why she and Amuro split up. Chan is ok but her death has zero emotional weight and even though Amuro clearly senses it, it has no effect on him whatsoever. He loses another love interest but it doesn't matter to him. And BC gives so much more meat to the story that I ended up preferring it. I don't know what the rest of the fandom is smoking to prefer CCA over BC. Its the same story but with more to it and actual stakes for Amuro to fight for.

[@malachitaylor1579]

Cool😢

[@Vespuchian]

I'll keep an eye out for the manga now thanks to this, thanks. CCA's Char was different enough from how he acted in both the original series and Zeta to give me the idea that it's not really him, that CCA's "Char" was a copy like Unicorn's Full Frontal, only without knowing it himself. Knowing we get a lot more from Char's perspective in the novel/manga makes me really interested to see how my interpretation would change.

[@fattiger6957]

I feel like, after the events of Zeta, Char lost all hope. IMO, he didn't care about any of his stated goals in CCA. I think it was all just a giant, elaborate lie to force Amuro into a duel to the death.

[@angellara7040]

Cca char is different because he failed to help humanity and lost hope after the events of zeta, he openly says so when he questions how amuro can have hope in humanity.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

I think that's some coping people who like Char do. It's totally believable to me.

[@fattiger6957]

I understand that Tomino wrote ANOTHER version of CCA in Gundam High Streamer. I don't think that novel had ever been translated (officially or by fans) but I think I heard that it was a little closer to the film version, but still different enough to be distinct. CCA all around seems to have been a troubled production. IMO, it kinda shows in the final product. Don't get me wrong, it is great, one of the best looking anime films of the 80s. However, things just feel rushed. Too many characters. Too many plot points. Too much happening. And too little time to develop everything. It isn't as bad as F91, but CCA probably would have been better served to be a 6-12 part OVA rather than a 2 hour film. P.S. If you are interested in Gundam in other mediums, I encourage you to read the novel trilogy of 0079. It is quite interesting and I think it gives you some insight into Tomino's mind since he didn't need to accommodate sponsors or networks. Much different than the TV series. More hard sci-fi, less anime melodrama. But it does fill in some little details that aren't explained in the anime.

[@deaconblues1823]

@@fattiger6957 All three volumes and BC have been translated. Every Tomino Gundam novel has been translated (though only V has yet to see completion).

[@fattiger6957]

@@deaconblues1823 High Streamer has been translated? I've only been able to find the first volume. Do you know where I can find the other two?

[@deaconblues1823]

@@fattiger6957 They're on my website (Zeonic|Scanlations). Third volume will be available off Patreon at/around Thanksgiving, but it's been done for a while now.

[@CheemsBased]

oh hi zeonic

[@DELTAWOLF15]

12:12 Thank goodness she such a misguide And Tragic character in both media's.

[@LordOfCope]

When Seed?

[@CheemsBased]

When it gets good

[@dubiously_]

Lol

[@tallbuffoon]

CHEEMS!!! MEET ME AT RISKY REELS TO FINISH OUR WAR! I WILL PROVE TO MY WIFE AND KIDS THAT I AM THE HONORED SWEAT!! PREPARE TO BE BOXED AND DOUBLE PUMPED

[@themadnessofmadara4883]

@@CheemsBased So episode 1.

[@angellara7040]

This is just wrong. Hi streamer was the blueprint for cca and cca was written and started production before bc was even written. Tomino wrote modified hi streamer into cca and later made a revision of a revision and sunrise rejected it so tomino instead made it into a book.

[@deaconblues1823]

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. Hi-Streamer was NOT the blueprint for the film. The film was already into production when Hi-Streamer first started it's seralization. Plus, if you actually read the novel, you'd know that the twelve chapters that were running up until the film premiere don't even showcase anything from the film (this led to it being shoehorned by the JPN fandom as a prequel of sorts, despite the novel proper telling a different story). The novel series initially started out as something that was going to be a sprawling epic story (ultimately Hathaway's Flash was going to end up as part of it). Tomino was trying to "escape Gundam" (which he'd try a few times). As for Beltorchika's Children, that came at the request of Kadokawa because they missed having a novel tie-in to the film when it debuted. Tomino said he had just the idea for a story, which is why he went back and used one of the original drafts (it's hinted that there were several other possibilities for film ideas) and gave them Beltorchika's Children. So there was no revision of a revision or anything of the sort.

[@angellara7040]

@deaconblues1823 hi streamer is literally about char dropping an asteroid on earth and what was sunrise going to adapt. Cca was based off of hi streamer amd tomino later submitted bc but sunrise had rejected it.

[@deaconblues1823]

​@@angellara7040 Again, you're flat out wrong. Have you even read a single page of Hi-Streamer or are you just senselessly parroting bologna? FIrst, the asteroid drop was always part of CCA's plot, it's outline in the original project proposal when the film idea was first pitched (I translated it and you can also find it in the CCA Artbook collection). Second, Tomino's afterword in the novels SPECIFICALLY states that Hi-Streamer started out as a desire to write a long-running story without fear of corporate meddling. Animage and its editors were happy to oblige. Ironically, the REVERSE of what you're claiming is actually true because they planned to incorporate elements from the FILM into the narrative before moving on past it (ultimately the goal was to include Hathaway's Flash, but that obviously changed later). So again, NO, CCA is NOT based off of Hi-Streamer and it WASN'T submitted as a substitution for Beltorchika's Children. If you'd even read HS then you'd realize a bulk of the third volume has vasty different events from the film version. Beltorchika wasn't submitted later, it was the FIRST idea that the investors rejected. It was later used as the basis for the motif novel which came at the REQUEST of Kadokawa, not for any other reason.

[@angellara7040]

@@deaconblues1823 nice job twisting words. Hi streamer was first and sunrise choose to adapt it into a film but changed elements and plot while keeping the central problem the same. Tomino wrote bc as a revision to cca but sunrise stuck with the version they already had

[@angellara7040]

@@deaconblues1823 it doesn't matter how different hi streamer is because it was just the general blueprint that was used as the base for cca. Just because its different doesn't mean anything

[@canoobie0947]

when tf one

[@CheemsBased]

👀

[@Ldad27]

The manga version of Beltorchika’s Children is being officially released state side and it’s wonderful.

[@Isaac77772]

I still hate quess paraya