The Problem With Queer Representation

[@HeyRowanEllis]

Thanks for watching - if you saw the bit where I didn't put the quote card over the whole quote... no you didn't! Get an exclusive Surfshark deal! Enter promo code ROWAN for an extra 3 months free at surfshark.deals/rowan

[@tempvsfrangit3854]

Just a quick note: Ep*ch T!mes had an advert run before your video started; heard a little while clicking to BLOCK AD, but sounded rather anti-LGB, especially T+, with "in our schools" mentioned😒 EDIT: "Reason you are seeing this ad: your age. Additional information: your location [somewhat Conservative state] and [all-caps mine] THE VIDEO YOU ARE WATCHING."

[@marocat4749]

I mean technically the good place made it , yeah not acted upon other than a timeloop, but elenot had a thing for tahani?! Its ssad that this is rlative good represetation :( , i mean at last she is flirty with at least 2 womn in the show. I mea technically it has.

[@MegaLoverforever]

😅😅😅

[@CorwinFound]

Yet another reason why Interview with the Vampire (TV show) is so great. The themes of racism and homophobia are beautifully intertwined with the thematic theme of otherness and isolation that drive so much of the plot and character interaction. It all becomes a beautiful tangled mess of issues which feels extremely queer in a super authentic way. Because queerness is _never_ one issue. I came out as trans and suddenly those concerns were interacting with already existing concerns in my life. My sister is an Evangelical Christian. We'd always had conflict over this but now it's all heightened by my coming out. My queerness highlights the issues, it didn't create them. My mom has always had problems with wanting to live vicariously through me and seeing everything I didn't do as she would as "failed potential." Me suddenly being her son was added fodder to this dynamic. But being trans didn't create the dynamic. What so much of mainstream media does with queer (and other minority) representation is it isolates the queerness. A gay character is _just_ a gay character without any other traits, marginalized identities, or concerns that may interact with the gayness. The issues they experience are _just_ based on queerness.

[@SpaztasticSheep]

Yesss

[@imfamoushero]

I love this explanation and reminds me why Emily’s coming out storyline in Skins S3 resonated so much. Her being gay just amplified the imbalanced power dynamic of her and her twin sister and made everything finally come to a head.

[@dianacobomontes2553]

Interview with the Vampire, the TV show, is very, very biphobic. You can find bi erasure, biphobic tropes as the evil bisexual, and incredibly biphobic conversation in episode 2... I felt so disappointed with it and honestly I find it quite a bit scary that apparently no one else sees this.

[@CorwinFound]

@@dianacobomontes2553 I'm bi and I didn't find it biphobic. Regarding erasure, Lestat is like super bi. He has no gender preference as far as we can see. He's in on screen relationships with both men and women. Louis had been in relationships with women but doesn't identify as bi. I definitely see him as a gay man and I think that's how the creators intend for us to view him. The evil bisexual... everyone in this show is evil! Louis isn't an "evil gay". He does some pretty horrible stuff and is severely messed up, but little of that has to do with being gay. And Lestat (at least as far as Louis' story goes) is totally evil. And again, not because he's bi. Unquestionably Louis has issues with Lestat's bisexuality as well as his sexual liberation we'll call it. But those two issues are not actually linked. Louis had problems with Lestat being involved with other men as well. Every character in this show is problematic. I could see people having an issue with Louis being black and a pimp. Let's face it, this is absolutely a negative stereotype of black men for decades or more. The show is doing risky stuff in addressing these ideas. And if that's not your thing, that's 100% understandable. But bisexuality is far from being erased; it's a major theme of the show. And if they are portraying an "evil bisexual" it's because every person in this show is evil, including the bisexual. I'm bi and trans and I _love_ problematic queer characters. Especially when their problems have little to do with being queer. A great example was Angel, an enby villain, in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds (The Serene Squall). They were villainous, vampy as all hell, and super freaking non-binary. Would some people say that the portrayal of a non-binary bad guy is a problem? I'm sure some would. But I don't merely want to see "perfect minority" representation of queer people. I want it messy, complicated, problematic, and _real_.

[@andiman44]

@@CorwinFoundI disagree that Louis had a problem with Lestat’s bisexuality. He had a problem with Lestat desiring polyamory or an open relationship as he’d prefer to remain monogamous (and Lestat being hypocrite when it came time for Louis to explore other people.) It’s not Lestat’s sexuality itself that’s the problem.

[@noa7152]

can't wait for the "angles aren't triangles please give us polyamory rep" video

[@Raya-xw5ud]

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[@val.628]

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[@amyizzylou]

That video would absolutely need to include the chaotic delightful fever dream that is the Sense8 finale

[@Lucarioguild7]

I heard someone call them love corners because it usually involves a woman backed into a corner forced to choose between 2 guys and that has really stuck with me

[@shaunaisazombie]

Hinge poly couples are still poly. I think maybe a different term would be better than a love angle? A love coin flip?

[@null.psyche]

As a Queer Autistic person I loved seeing Chloe Hayden play Quinnie in Netflix's adaptation of Heartbreak High.

[@limeyell0w945]

idk what the last 13 words are but the first 5 are just like me fr

[@fifinoir]

Ooh I haven’t watched the adaptation yet. I’m always worried a show won’t live up to the original. It’s worth the watch then?

[@Sentientmatter8]

I know it was just a breath of fresh air to see a character that really felt organically Autistic, that felt like my experience and people I know, and Chloe Haden's performance was integral to that.

[@val.628]

It’s so good, Quinnie really made me feel seen, and it makes a lot of sense that it was good because Chloe (who is herself autistic) has talked about how she was given the opportunity to have a lot of input with the character. I think it tends to work really well when actors are involved in the writing of a show. Actors get to know their characters really well, and tend to share key characteristics and/or life experiences with them.

[@null.psyche]

@@fifinoir I really enjoyed it, but I know nothing about the original so I can't say how it holds up, I just watched it because I like Chloe Hayden and I knew she was in it and had control over her character's portrayal.

[@hakasims]

Ironically, the one queer storyline in Ted Lasso S3 that did feel thematically interwoven with the rest of the season and has been built up by the visual language of the show from the beginning was the Roy/Keeley/Jamie throuple. Like, remember that episode in season 1 where Jamie came to Keeley for advice and found Roy there? The way Keeley looked at the coffee Jamie had brought her and the coffee Roy had made for her and just poured one into the other to mix them together into one drink, I was like wait… is this a metaphor? And then the way the three of them are framed in a shot together and all the talk about the triangle being the strongest shape… it was right there, and they just chickened out at best and baited us at worst. Also, Jamie Tartt is the most bisexual character ever and you didn’t make him a confirmed bisexual???

[@DanikaLeighEllis]

And Jamie had posters of both of them in his childhood bedroom! And Roy and Jamie have a whole BIcycle storyline?? I genuinely thought they were setting up for that.

[@tomatosoupfordragons3496]

Agreed! The character arcs of those three were already so tightly interwoven and their relationship was complex and sweet and interesting. The personal growth they achieved through helping and supporting each other directly tied into main theme of the show but also seemed like an ideal foundation for a healthy poly relationship. The characters were very well fleshed out and we were already interested in their relationship because of the Keeley/Jamie and Keeley/Roy dynamic. And then they made it even more interesting by writing that beautiful Roy/Jamie subplot in s4. It just seems like such a wasted opportunity to me. All that talk about triangles and they had the chance to use the boring old love-triangle trope and turn it into something new and queer and meaningful. It really frustrated me when they used the last episode to basically undo the seasons previous character developents by having Jamie and Roy revert to their childish rivalry and treating Keeley like a prize to be won. It could have been great really, if the writers had been a little bolder and more in tune with their own themes and characters.

[@elizarumm]

This was absolutely exactly what I thought would happen, so devasted about the reversion at the end

[@hakasims]

@@tomatosoupfordragons3496 the insane part is, they never treated her like a prize to be won, even in S1. Jamie thought Keeley got with Roy to make him jealous, and Roy was bothered by Keeley having been with Jamie before getting with him, but they never fought over her. That coffee scene in S1 and that brief moment after Jamie said he loved Keeley in S2 were the closest things to rivalry over her we had. And then they get into a bar fight! That’s not reverting back to their S1 selves; that’s regressing into something they never were on the show.

[@FEARNoMore]

Well the Collin storyline was actually started in season 2 in the first episode. The actor that plays Collin talked about that therapy session being the catalyst for Collin coming out. In S02E03 he makes that comment about Bantr sounding like grindr. So him fulling coming out in season 3 does feel interwoven & authentic to his journey from a bully to a a proud out footballer.

[@littlebluepearl]

Lemme just leave here a tiny prayer to the universe for more authentic and diverse queer characters that are also *connected to the overall theme of the show*, because it really feels like you've cracked it -- that's it, that's why sometimes these storylines feel kinda shoehorned

[@sophiephilips-roberts3311]

I would HIGHLY recommend Severance, for a later in life, actually-important-to-the-storyline queer relationship that is baked into the show from very early on!

[@CorwinFound]

You know what? It was so seamless that I never even thought about queer rep with that show! It's not that I didn't notice he was queer or anything like that but it didn't impact me as, "Oh, he's gay! I must take note and feel praise for the show." It just was. Thanks for reminding me of the show. Will be on the lookout for season 2.

[@littlelordfuckleroy3822]

Burt and Irving are literally my favs I love them so much

[@garynaccarato4606]

Does it have any gay men who are actually strong brave and actually know how to fight and are competent in hand to hand combat/martial arts if not then I'm not interested.I am tired of and I'm real friggin disgusted with constantly having to see all of these cowardly,wimpy and physically weak LBGTQ men in fiction who can not actually seem to fight there ways out of a wet paper friggen bag.

[@sampepper7682]

I'm going to say that watching Trent come out was really nice to me. I was like "this feels like a gay man in a way I can not describe" and I liked him coming out. Especially as Trent grew as a character he felt a lot more in depth and I liked how he was simultaneously an uptight reporter and someone getting really comfortable with those around him and you can watch him get more and more comfortable throughout the series. So I liked how he was a gay character the most. I think it felt the most natural. His queerness felt the most apart of his character in a way where it wasn't his whole character but also wasn't something that felt like it was jammed in at the end just for the sake of diversity and cash grabs. It felt like the more the writers had fun with his character the more and more he felt like a middle age queer man who was happy with his sexuality and life. Also one of the best Queer rep I have seen this year. Nimona on Netflix it is the best movie in the world and I am obsessed with it right now.

[@galaxychill9578]

No but being an ass is

[@Ihwaz13]

​@Ville_xNope it is not.

[@FavaMamaaaaa]

​@@Ihwaz13????

[@Ihwaz13]

@@FavaMamaaaaa I was replying to a now deleted comment. That comment claimed that being gay was a choice. Hence my answer.

[@toomi7398]

Nimona was amazing!!! I would die for more cute, heartfelt, queer movies like it. Bal and Nimona are branded as 'villains' (not directly because they are queer, but as an allegory to their queer nature) and they reclaim themselves by embracing being vigilantes. I think it's a great example of bringing queer themes to a younger audience while managing to stay genuine and not too heavy-handed.

[@AllTheArtsy]

It's a cliche way of putting it, but I don't want good queer characters. I just want good characters who happen to be queer. And when I say "good" I don't mean moral, nice, friendly. I mean fully fleshed out, complex, intriguing, interesting. There is so much else in life and narrative to focus on rather than who you're bumping uglies with. I'm so tired of queer characters just being in queer shows about queerness and all their problems come from being queer. It's 2023 for goodness sake. Give us something more.

[@bisexualmajima]

Unironically this is why I think the new season of It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia may be doing queer representation the best (or at least the most layered) out of anything that's aired thus far this year, save for The Last of Us.

[@marocat4749]

Honestly , there are like nr 6 and the magha knights run. Both auhor did kinda switch the gender of the main character, makig it pretty queer but not th main conflicts. Yeah ideally that would be great, ut the same time i think we have tolive with th bad too, ust can it be enough that therr is enough that the gay does not matter. But yeah writers could often straight do a straight couple, then change a gender, and then work on it.maybe?! iAsstart to be lesss hesitnt. ?!

[@alexc119]

This is still why Black Sails is my favourite show of all time

[@AllTheArtsy]

@@alexc119 Black Sails is so underrated it's criminal

[@karinasnooodles_]

Exactly

[@mylittlethoughttree]

“we don’t see lasting consequences for many of these hard-hitting moments. Kinda feels like the show wants to give us these lesson-learning plots and vignettes without giving us the emotional pay off or considering how these often systemic issues might ripple through marginalized characters’ lives beyond one incident.” That's a great quote! As someone who, despite its many glaring flaws, still loved Ted Lasso S03, I think you've helped me figure out part of what does bother me about it. I gave it something of a pass for at least trying to provide positive representation and a heartfelt message, but it does fall flat and hollow. 100% agree that theme has to be at the centre of any character's exploration, without it, it becomes less like art trying to explore something, and more like an advert trying to appeal.

[@Lisa_Flowers]

As a Black Nonbinary person, I have really complicated feelings about 'good' or 'bad' queer rep. I totally understand where people are coming from with wanting more morally complex queer rep, instead of just a flat, didactic, morally sanitised representations of queerness. And to some degree I want that too. But idk. Maybe it's living in an environment that is so uninhabitable for my queerness, or the fact that there is basically no meaningful mainstream representation of my identity that I can think of. But there's a part of me that feels like I wouldn't enjoy seeing a Black Nonbinary character who is super flawed or who exists within a sadder story. Like I love Bly Manor to the end of the world and back but it also traumatised me, like I literally had a mental breakdown after watching it lol. And I struggle with a lot of internalised transphobia and homophobia and racism. So I tend to stay away from queer characters who are super messy or complex or flawed. I realise I'm unfortunately hyperaware of how those characters look in the cishet gaze, but it feels hard to get out of that because of how hostile my environment is as a direct result how cishet people view queer people. Psychologically I need complex, fleshed out, flawed Black trans nonbinary characters, yes, but I also want them to be likeable and to clearly embody positive traits at the end of the day. Some people may feel like that is too 'sanitised' but the constant piling-on that trans and nonbinary and Black people experience respectively and especially at those intersections is so fucking exhausting. I don't want that to rob me of complex characters but sometimes I need to watch a TV show that reminds me that i'm not the actual devil and that I don't in fact embody all the worst traits a human can have, ya know? Especially when i'm probably never going to have actual human rights, in the section of the world I live. It's giving respectability politics to a degree, but with how basically non-existent Black trans nonbinary characters are in media, i'd prefer if our first ventures into that experience in mainstream media were more positive than negative.

[@mojo11417]

i love how you’ve expressed this so accurately. i feel the same

[@juliaourofinoscalia3468]

I feel like what we need is more of both: more complex queer characters, especially queer characters who dont assume a cishet audicente that has to be taught queerness, but also characters who are allowed to be free and happy and have no conflict or heavy themes. Both are important. Queer people can and should be happy, but we should also be allowed to be complex and flawed, but still human and respected yk. I totally understand that some people might not want to watch one of the other type of character but that's why we need an abundance of both! Also thanks for your experience, that environment must really really suck- here's a little hug and pat on the back if you'd like one :) I really hope you find a place to be yourself one day, you deserve it

[@alexelion7084]

Idk if this is a good recommendation, but there is a book „How do I tell them I love them?“ by Kacen Callender who has a black enby as main character. All characters are black, most are queer, including multiple trans/nonbinary characters and being queer is generally pictured as a non-issue, same goes for polyamory and to some degree for neurodivergence. The main conflicts are about other things and self love is the main theme. The book talks about mental health, activism and some other political topics, but it has an overall positive message and perspective. So while this book depicts complex topics and people, there is (in my opinion) likable representation, normalization of otherwise marginalized identities and an overall positive outlook, so maybe you might like it

[@kodak3619]

I feel the same , yeah we need complex queer rep to humanize us more .but me personally when I sit down to watch smth I'm looking to see some hope from the constant hate i experience from my country .I need to get away from these people from my family .

[@CreativeC13]

As a black queer person, Felt.

[@ewanwild]

That "grubby little homosexual" Mickey is the ONLY reason to watch Shameless - but you are right, outside of the show he probably wouldn't work. That is what is great about him. He is a product of his environment and still he managed to find his way to being proud of who he was despite it all, which I think is great representation. We don't all come in pretty little "hollywood approved" packages and that is okay. As always, great essay!!! Thank you for all the time and effort you put into thinking about things that are important to all of us.

[@LadyQAB]

Mickey is an absolute gem the seasons he was barely in I just waited for him to show himself again. But yeah Rowan is right he doesn't work outside of shameless but god do I love him

[@majakwasny]

hey whats the timestamp when rowan mentions shameless in this vid?

[@ewanwild]

@@majakwasny it is at 49:25

[@tananario23]

Ah, Mickey. The fantasy rough boi for the straight white girlies. 💯 suitable for Mpreg fan fic. And let’s ignore the whole premise of the show, which is about the struggle of the working class. Because Mickey’s a bottom. So cute! Squee!!!! 🙄🥱

[@Princess_Weekes]

Amazing. And yeah, I can relate to a lot of these feelings. Especially the feeling of disappointment sometimes even if something is good rep, still feeling like ehh.

[@Anna-dd4rh]

Right? Like there’s just that *something* missing, and I can never put my finger on what. Also big fan of yours, so cool to see you here!!

[@emhornerbooks]

You hit it out of the park with this one (if I may go back to the sports metaphors). The 3rd season of Ted Lasso felt overwhelmed with the desire to educate and give people Good Messages and Uplift and Positivity that did not end up being grounded in authentic character moments - and that affected both the queer storylines and the other storylines, although the queer storylines got it worse, I think. (Frankly, I think the writers started to buy into all the hype about Ted Lasso being Positive and Uplifting and deconstructing toxic masculinity and started writing to an audience who wanted good messages and positivity instead of writing to an audience who wanted good, complicated, thoughtful writing. But I could be wrong!) We've been hearing a lot lately about how the financial realities of making movies and television right now make people afraid of taking chances - no one wants to invest in original stuff, but they'll invest in the eighth installment of a franchise. And in the same way, a lot of TV writing about queer characters seems to come from a place of fear of being called out for being problematic - it's problematic if we have no queer characters, it's problematic if we bury our gays, so let's write a storyline that will say all the right things even if we don't have a clear and coherent artistic vision.

[@HeyRowanEllis]

Sports!!!

[@lucyo2919]

Yes!! I really like what you’ve said here. I feel like Ted’s locker room speeches in the third season are an example of them buying into their own hype. There were a couple speeches in season 3 where I was suddenly very conscious that they were trying to be inspirational/uplifting in a way I wasn’t aware of in the first 2 seasons. They felt less rousing and more “here we go again.”

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

That's how I feel about seasons 6 and 7 of Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Not necessarily with regards to queer representation-Rosa's coming out storyline felt very natural, if a bit milked-but there were some moments that definitely felt like there were these big grand speeches or Aesop moral moments. Like, the show's creators specifically announced that they were writing an episode responding to the #MeToo movement, but the fact that they had to go out of their way to create a special episode like that weakened the point. It's like the writers went in with an idea of what the audience wanted from the show, rather than what was best for the show's themes/narrative, and that's what makes it sort of a gas leak season.

[@anneliselim602]

TV writers FEAR writing queer characters in any negative light because people keep complaining about writers vilianising LGBT. But when they wrote Jack in Ted Lasso as a jerk, y'all complain when I think it's completely realistic. She is raised to continue the wealth and elitism of her family so she's gonna put profit/reputation b4 Keely whom she barely knows. This is actually one of the most realistic parts of the show.

[@zorrokass3]

This is why 'Interview with the Vampire' was so bloody fantastic! All the characters are messy, charming, difficult and profoundly complex individuals. Each one a mosaic of their life experiences, beliefs, choices, traumas, and passions from within their historical context. Their queerness is a much an essential part of their character as their family background, gender, race, religious beliefs, location, culture, etc etc. To understand them, you have to consider all the above and more... Its a masterclass of character dynamics and a brilliant adaptation.

[@lucypreece7581]

I am glad that you mentioned that In the context of any other show Mickey Milkovich would be seen as terrible representation because he is a grubby little feral felon but like in a show like Shameless you literally don't bat an eyelid because well pretty much every single character on that show is kind of terrible in their own way and they all have massive character flaws and are representing this like scrappy feral working class part of society that have to lie, cheat and scam their way through life just to get by. Honestly I could do a full essay breaking down literally every single member of the Gallagher family in Shameless.

[@xyulo]

no this is exactly what i needed, i was struggling w/ explaining (even to myself!) why some characters work, even if they aren't pure, and maybe even have some "problematic trope" flavor to them, but yeah, it's not exactly about character. if they work, it's because they are connected to the central theme of the show/book/whatnot.

[@marocat4749]

Also drama, characters always are better if they have some personal conflict going on, and flaw, to make them relatable. Also good pure characters are really hard to do, can we stick with decent but also flaws.

[@tessmalnight9837]

this is an amazing video! i love ted lasso and was so happy trent, colin, and keeley were confirmed to be queer but i couldn’t quite identity why it all felt so off and you summed it up so well ( and the comparison to glee was so spot on)

[@268anita]

Same! I did like that no one reacted to Keeley’s relationship. I do want stories that show the reality, but also love shows (like Schitt’s Creek) where it’s a better world and it’s not a “thing”. And while it’s nice to see a bisexual character, her story with Jack seemed thrown in to appease the folks pointing out the lack of queer characters. Her relationship ended and then it was back to 2 men. Sure, that happens! But it felt more like the writers patted themselves on the back and with the end of Jack that was the end of any mention of her bi-ness, 4 more seasons would go on, we’d never see her with another woman. With Collin - it bothered me, unsettled me - I couldn’t put my finger on it. It was issac’s cold reaction, the fact that he felt justified to be angry, that he was the focus. I did tear up though when Collin finally got to kiss his boyfriend same as the straight guys at the end.

[@mujiescomedy279]

@@268anitaI kind of disagree about keely. They had built her up to be bi from season 1

[@cariswilliams5808]

Yeah, I didn't love the season as much as the first 2, but I still enjoyed a lot of the plot elements. But the queer rep did ping a little off for me and I couldn't figure out why.

[@shoxy-the-pinecone6113]

my personal belief is that if a character based on a stereotype that is somewhat harmful is given enough interiority that they become relatable then the fact that they are stereotypical ceases to carry the baggage of being stereotypical. to give an example Todd from Bojack Horseman hypothetically embodies many harmful tropes/stereotypes about asexual people on account of him being very childish however throughout the series he is consistently fleshed out and given definition. this serves to make Todd much more human and the humanity and interiority within his character neutralizes the harmful aspects of the 'childish asexual' trope. stereotypes serve the fundamental purpose of dehumanizing a group of people so if humanity is granted to a stereotype then that attempt to dehumanize that group mutates into an attempt to re3present them and the tropes that are elsewhere used to belittle or reduce are no different to any other personality traits. I don't want to make it seem as though queer representation only comes in two flavors; reclaimed stereotype or bland. there a quote from George R R Martin (an author I don't love but whatever he has this one quote I like) when he asked about how he writes when he responded 'You know I've always considered women to be people.' and that applies to any group of people. the best representation isn't the least problematic but in fact the most human

[@fionatastic0.070]

There’s a great quote by the Nigerian author Adichie in a speech she did about stereotypes where she says something to the effect of “Stereotypes are not wholly untrue, but rather incomplete”. I think that’s why it feels to me like discussions around stereotypes are sometimes lacking. Although it’s important to point out that there are people who don’t fit the stereotype, it can sometimes be harmful to completely shrug them off.

[@jordanyampolsky4421]

after hearing you talk through keeley/jack's relationship, it really feels like they wrote this storyline for keeley to have a hetero relationship with her male boss named jack, and the main takeaway was supposed to be some lesson about power dynamics/love bombing/toxic relationships... making jack a woman (and therefore developing keeley's queerness) feels like it was an afterthought.

[@mse90]

Not gonna lie, having a KZbin ad break right as the Glee card was revealed was nothing short of a touch of comedic genius. 👏

[@lmn977]

I found myself uninvested in Jack and her relationship with Keeley for the same reason I didn't warm to Jade and her relationship with Nate. I want to see both characters in a couple bring their flaws to the relationship and grow through it- whether it lasts or not. That's why I liked Roy + Keeley and rooted for them to reunite. I think it's also why Ted + Rebecca and Roy + Jamie are compelling platonic duos. But in the cases of Jack + Keeley and Nate + Jade, the growth of the main character in the couple seems to plateau while the other person doesn't get much exploration and certainly doesn't grow. Jack's flaws- love-bombing, slut-shaming- cause problems and eventually end the relationship because she's a fixed character who doesn't grow or adapt like the others do. Jade doesn't have *any characteristics whatsoever*, which I hated so much- she just seems like a beautiful, anodyne reward for Nate for being sort of a good person. Imo, if we'd got to know Jack before she started dating Keeley, to recognise her weaknesses and to care about her individually, we'd care about the success of her relationship with Keeley and want both women to evolve through it.

[@SallyLock103emeCaris]

My favorite kind of video: a youtuber I love talks about a show I'll most probably never see (and some other things along the way), in depth, for about an hour ❤ thank you for this ❤

[@gayatriunni549]

i think good omens is an example of really good queer representation because crowley and aziraphale’s relationship is literally integral to the theme of the heaven/hell dichotomy and about how good/evil isn’t a clear cut binary etc etc. they aren’t *gay* because they’re sexless immortal beings, but the forbidden relationship between two (mostly) male presenting characters IS representation that’s deeply intrenched into the story. it also goes further in representing non-traditional as well as aspec relationships. “love is love” yes, that also means that to some the distinction between types of love is unclear and doesn’t even matter because at the end of the day they love each other deeply and it’s the connection rather than the label or things they do. i’ve seen it being called “queerbait”, and while i get that similar situations where the characters aren’t explicitly dating or something and don’t kiss or whatever are often queerbait, but context is important. it’s a love story-it’s romantic, platonic, both, neither all at once. the “baiting” part isn’t there for it to be queerbaiting. also pollution is casually referred to with they/them pronouns, the masculine “sir”, all while being played by a woman. crowley also presents as a woman sometimes, and it’s never the butt of the joke. gender fluidity and presentation is handled really well. i love this show (and book) so much and i’m really excited for season 2. also it’s kind of funny that the straight couple is given the shoehorning in treatment. they’re just kind of there

[@marocat4749]

It would still be great iof they were actually called on nd off partner, which they were apearently hinted.

[@autolosss]

Worth noting that Good Omens seems to speak a lot more favorably to those that are asexual. James Woodall's vid on this with the discussion of queerbait puts this into added context as well.

[@gayatriunni549]

update: after season 2, obviously i loved it with all the pain. i mean it’s great that they kissed, and i thought that that shouldn’t have changed anything about their relationship, but the fact that they made it into a whole “confession” thing really kind of changed what so many people saw their relationship as. i mean by no means do i dislike it, but i’m just a bit sad that they sort of changed what everyone had accepted as canon

[@nyves104]

the most shocking thing for me is that apparently Ted Lasso is in fact not a show about a serial killer, which was what I thought until this video.

[@MateusAntonioBittencourt]

My problem with Ted Lasso's approach to societal problems and it's PSA style of teaching "thing bad"... is that the show it self doesn't understand what is bad about it. It only knows it is... so they don't realize they contradicting the message of the episode in the episode. Worst case was the "Delete the nudes" scene where the episode contradicts its own message by having Issac grab Hughes phone and going through his photos. Literally invading his privacy and photos (possibly his owns nudes) in the name of protecting people's privacy and photos. The show doesn't understand why viewing leaked nudes is wrong. Why people should delete their exes nudes. Instead it only knows society tells people it's wrong so they try to preach it.

[@RationalNerd]

I know I've been talking way too much about this show in the past few months, but this is exactly why Warrior Nun's queerness felt so good to me. The main characters are a bunch of ninja nuns, obviously, some of them must be queer (and dealing with their fair of internalized shame because of religion). And it was already well done in the first season, with queer characters that were also so much more than their queerness. But season two went even further, with the development of a queer relationship that was both natural and central to the story, between two characters that were still much more than their queerness or their relationship, all the while staying very much in theme with the rest of the show. And all of that almost didn't happen because some Netflix exec didn't want a queer storyline in this show. (sigh) As always, this was a great video! I didn't know anything about Ted Lasso (especially not that it was about football lol), but "what is a good or bad queer representation" is a question that I've seen and asked myself many times, and it was great to see your thoughts about this!

[@kdjets]

Haunting of Hill House and Bly Manor changed my life. Even when a person implies the ending of Bly, I'm nearly brought to tears. Not to mention the gardener's monologue about the flower that blooms in the moonlight. Sheer beauty.

[@bisexualmajima]

This is why I think It's Always Sunny is giving us some of the best representation of anything with a season airing at the time of this being posted, and funnily enough it's in large part due to having such a 'problematic' reputation that's allowed it to have such freedom. Not to mention being from an era where showrunners were still allowed to have a few seasons to flesh their worlds and characters out. Not even joking when I say I think Mac and Dennis have one of the most compelling romance plots on television, and that them being massively terrible people from the jump and Mac being allowed to retain what an annoying, gross, delusional dumba$$ he is through the many motions of his coming out and the writers figuring out the kinks and learning and improving more and more over time on how to fit an openly gay character (and a semi-closeted bi character who is widely considered the worst/2nd worst of the gang) into their formula without backtracking or putting a neat bow on things has allowed Sunny to have some shockingly cathartic and nuanced moments concerning queerness and respectability politics as of late. Shoutout to WWDITS, Our Flag Means Death and Interview With The Vampire too of course (but most of them are off-season right now which is why I'm focusing on Sunny)

[@EU33]

you're the only youtuber who can make me sit down for 50+ minutes straight (gay) ily😭I personally really liked the Ted Lasso episode in Amsterdam, and especially the bit where Trent and Colin are at the triangle shaped gay monument and they talk about its history. I felt like this was the only time a queer moment made any type of connection with the main theme of the episode (which happened to be all about this triangle shaped football attacking strategy). Of course, there is a deep history surrounding queerness and triangle symbols, which is why the monument is there in the first place, but the connection to the central theme made me tear up a little. However, Keeley and Jack's break up was one of the most incohesive bits of writing I've seen in a long while. I was really close to not even finishing the season after that, which really breaks my heart, because I love this show x

[@amytje]

The Amsterdam episode was a definite highlight for me too. I first met my partner (who is Dutch) in Amsterdam and on our first day together we visited the homomonument. As queer trans women it was a powerful and poignant moment for us both and I was pleasantly surprised to see the TV show mirror a similarly queer interaction there. Also a nice surprise to hear the Dutch language being spoken throughout the episode, even if they did overuse the word Gezellig. ^_^'

[@whatername528]

When you pointed out season 3 was basically just Glee, I swear I saw the Time Knife.

[@pagano60]

I'm a straight guy, and even *I* was disappointed to see the free-spirited and socially conscious (read: budding lesbian) Eloise Bridgerton starting to crush on a bloke. Yet another missed opportunity!

[@torijeri]

it’s almost universally agreed among the fans that eloise is a lesbian and benedict is bisexual at this point. like SHONDA MAKE IT CANON I BEG YOU

[@pagano60]

@@torijeri - Maybe she could bring in the novelist Sarah Waters to help craft a sapphic story thread appropriate for the Regency era. "Bridgerton" isn't sticking slavishly to the novels in other respects. Here's another way to add contemporary interest.

[@torijeri]

@@pagano60 i agree! i’d love it if she could do something like that

[@amazinggrapes3045]

Because "free spirited and socially conscious" means someone is a lesbian?

[@sarahd.5244]

Great video and I really appreciated your analysis. One thing, I really didn't think Colin was being a jerk about the photos and wanting to keep them. He was leaving to delete them out of sight of the rest of the team, lest someone peer over his shoulder and see that they were from men instead of women. He was going through the photos and said he'd delete them, just didn't want Isaac looking while he did so to confirm that's what he was doing, like he was with the rest of the team.

[@multiplemysteries5242]

I'm so glad someone finally pointed this out. He left the room because he didn't want to be outed, not because he's a misogynist!

[@dapeach06]

Good Queer TV is animation, especially The Owl House, with both the primary protagonist Luz and secondary protagonist Eda are openly bisexual and are in queer relationships DURING the show, not just at the finale. Eda's partner is openly nonbinary. And there are a lot of queer secondary and tertiary characters.

[@galaxychill9578]

Lilith is Aspec too

[@Kim-iz5fx]

Wait Eda gets a partner??? I really need to continue watching 😂

[@melasnexperience]

Same. I can think of more positive & interesting examples of queer visibility in recent animation than in live action. Sadly, every one I can think of has wrapped.

[@breawycker]

I love Owl House characters. Gotta be one of my favorite genders

[@breawycker]

​@@galaxychill9578she's ace/aro!

[@hourofberries]

the amount of shows that you mentioned here that I watched recently is actually shocking, seeing half your screen covered in ted lasso characters made me smile

[@jldavis709]

Some shows that take on some of the issues of Ted lasso but do a much better job: - Our Flag Means Death (hbo) also very heavily focuses on toxic masculinity but through more of a queer lense. And it also doesn't rely on a "lesson of the week" moral speech to get the message across - Somebody Somewhere (hbo) deals with a friend feeling betrayed by the hiding of their friend's queer relationship- but it's not because he hid that he was gay, but because their friendship is the most important thing in their lives and this relationship will change how they interact. It really places platonic love on the same level as romantic love - Interview with the Vampire (amc)- does a great job of grappling with race and sexuality that is both intrinsic to the character and gives motivation for the choices that affect the plot

[@Mambo1061]

This is an excellent point, and I like how you termed it “resonance” at the end I definitely felt empty and disappointed with Ted Lasso’s queer rep at the end and agree about the stop and start and didactic nature of S3 and some of S2 potentially as well. I think, if they needed Colin to be gay, there should be some meaningful connection to Colin’s sort of self worth/following along with bullies character arch. So much felt like an actor preaching at me, and I would’ve liked a moment where he admitted (in his own more natural sounding lines) “I hurt people and engaged in toxic masculinity because it made me feel safer, even if i indirectly or directly hurt someone” I’m with you on the Keeley Roy Jamie throuple wavelength. I think it would’ve been an interesting addition to at least Jamie’s arch, and the two posters in his bedroom of Roy and Keeley! It would’ve been easy, it could’ve been great! *shakes fist at stormy sky* I also like your suggestion for fixing Keeley’s arch. I wanted to see characters made like real people experience positive growth, even if Keeley didn’t have a for sure plan with her company at the end.

[@emmakelly5528]

I do think so many people feel they can only like a character when they hold a perfect moral code and even have to deny their 'bad parts' to admit they enjoy them but its literally tv. its not real. and messy people are good tv so i just want more real messy gay rep. who doesn't love a grubby little homosexual?

[@emmakelly5528]

i love some heartstopper but also gimme shameless, gimme yellowjackets

[@marocat4749]

So wrong, there is a reason why jack sparrow is so popular, or barbossa, people like interesting flawd character that arestill liable and sympathic. You ned to make them good eough of a prson and messy and people probaly love them.

[@giannabruce7174]

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend (my favorite show of all time!!!) has characters come out in later seasons, and I think that they did it particularly well!!! The show is definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it yet!!

[@melasnexperience]

"PSA rep" is pretty much all those of us under the aspec umbrella have gotten in live action, even if there are a couple of teen dramas that have (or plan to have) major ace characters. Look at the Sex Ed ep with the girl who teaches us all Ace 101, then turns into vapor & is never seen even in crowd scenes. And there's another one where there's a "fraught romance" story that still serves as another "what is this" lesson (I can't remember which, but that's because I hated teen dramas as a teen, so naturally as an adult I'm not watching them). I just wish that ace viewers would hold them to task when they do this, especially when they pull a Florence, like others do instead of accepting it with celebration until they realize that the pattern has repeated long after it's been wrapped.

[@violetcolouredglasses]

The only case I can think of where this doesn’t happen is with Vodo in Sirens(available on Hulu) who I think is pretty good ace rep. And one of the characters in the imperfects on Netflix is ace but I haven’t finished the show so I can’t comment on how good the rep is.

[@melasnexperience]

@@violetcolouredglasses Voodoo is one of my favorites. I probably wouldn't have realized my own asexuality if I hadn't seen her on TV.

[@Howdyasdo]

It's so true that for a group to be represented there needs to be a wide spectrum of good and bad characters ( in context of story) because in life nobody is an angel who does everything right all the time. Its the same problem with "positive" stereotypes like Asians being good at math or black people being good at sports. It sets expectations for non queer people to think we are all the same. This video really made me think about writing queer characters in the future, and making a conscious effort in deciding how making a person different affects the story on a wider level. Thank you.

[@kthxbi]

Turning straight characters queer in adaptations is to me a bit reminiscent of stuff like colourblind or genderblind casting. Like, I love that we get more queer characters, but its often clear that the writers haven't thought through how their queerness would fundamentally change certain aspects of how that character interacts with their reality, and also how it would affect relationship dynamics or the way preexisting ones are read. And 90% of the time they display their queerness by just giving them a nameless perfect love interest for a few scenes who is never really given a character - so we don't even get a proper queer relationship, just the artifice of one. Its like they want to grab some representation brownie points to pull in queer fans, so they just stick a hand into their box of characters, rummage around for one of the less important ones, and then slap a rainbow sticker on them and call it a day. It cheapens the entire point of having representation

[@amazinggrapes3045]

Me who loves genderblind and colorblind casting because it means the characters are characters first and superficially traits later and also you genuinely get more diversity and less stereotyping this way: 😐

[@BlackXSunlight]

Jaime Tartt's childhood bedroom having both a sexy poster of Keely on his wall AND a poster of Roy was the worst bisexual tease, like what were they thinking in the writer's room??

[@gaflene]

It's also complicated how different people will have different opinions on what constitutes good and bad representation. I was talking with a friend about the legend of vox machina and they said Scanlan would be terrible bi representation in any other show, and for them his only saving grace was that there were other bi and queer characters and presumably queer people in the writing room and production team. There was also the decision to tone down his pursuit of Pike in translation from the stream to the animated series. I agree with that sentiment, but I know there are a lot of people in the fandom who find a lot of resonance in Scanlan's story. Having a good ensemble with different experiences of bisexuality lessens the sting of that stereotype for my friend and I while also providing for the people who feel seen by it. It's not like I have room to talk since my favorite bisexual keeps making bad deals and inventing death machines and generally being a prick but we all have our blind spots. TLDR I guess representation can't be a game of just numbers or quality. We need for them to be many and compelling and variable.

[@katherineavery4611]

I so wanted Susie from MMM to be AroAce, especially when she said early on in the series "I don't mind being alone, I just do not want to be insignificant." And when Midge took her to a gay bar to maybe find her a date and Susie got really mad at her and told her not to get involved in her love life. I know she was pretty heavily coded lesbian and that would have been ok with me too, if like you said, they didn't try to shoehorn in the one tragic ex love story and then just left it at that. They had a lot off opportunities for her sexuality to be a fleshed-out part of her otherwise well-rounded character and they just couldn't be bothered to do it.

[@harryabbott103]

I would’ve loved an episode where the team goes to Pride together in support of Colin

[@marocat4749]

That would be so powerful, given the hhomopphobia in football.

[@jennac7115]

What I wouldn't give to hear Rojas say "Pride is life." We were ROBBED

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

and Pride Month is like the only holiday that doesn't get sitcom episodes. we got a Diwali episode of The Office before seeing any Pride specials.

[@elenagonzalez8463]

Just realized I dont think ive seen a pride month special ep... except maybe glee with born this way? but I dont even think it was set in pride month lol@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721

[@beathinks]

As you were describing the third season of TL, I was reminded of Glee… which I’ve never actually watched and I feel like that says something.

[@finpin2622]

I feel like Trent coming out made a lot of sense to me and it would have actually been nice to hear about his experiences more, but also his mentor-ish relationship with Colin had a LOT of potential and I’m just sad that it took them so long to confirm queer characters bc a lot of the disjointed feeling, I think, could have been eased slightly by intertwining the queer rep into all seasons of the show rather than trying to cram it all in in this (maybe last?) season. Keeley’s storyline was especially frustrating, like… relationships written just to be a “fling while they’re having a conflict with the Endgame Love Interest” are irritating to start with, but using a queer relationship to do that feels even worse. And she didn’t even get back with Roy at the end! So honestly if they didn’t make Jack an asshole, they could have stayed together and then Roy and Jamie would get their whole lesson about Keeley not being obligated to take either of them back. Not to say I didn’t really love the relationship between Keeley and Roy in previous seasons, but the way everything turned out was just so “eh”. There were bits of season 3 I did love but it felt strange how disconnected I felt to it when compared to how much I WANTED to enjoy it.

[@cheaptadpole]

i did genuinely enjoy ted lasso's season 3 finale except for the bit where they spent an entire season building up roy and jaime's friendship and were drinking that Respecting Keeley Juice but decided to throw all of it away in two scenes where they randomly get into a bar brawl over her. that ending scene in one ep where ted sees the three of them hanging out in the locker room implied that season should've 100% ended in a throuple

[@JohnDRuddyMannyMan]

I love when you bring the Captain Marvel energy :D

[@middlenerd178]

I agree with just about all of this video, especially Colin not being a fully formed character, although I can absolutely remember a time in my life where a very dominant thought in my head quite often was “oh my god what if someone finds out”. This however was when I wasn’t in therapy (I’m still not), and I was in a very hostile environment, also known as queerphobic small town middle school. Fear and hesitation to come out could very much happen to anyone at anytime, and Colin even acknowledged that the team would be fine with it, and his feelings are valid. But it would’ve been really nice if I could tell you more than three superficial things about Colin. He can’t drive, he’s gay, and he’s friends with Issac, and that’s kind of it His speech was great, but his speech summed up his whole storyline. His while storyline was Very Special Episode-ish.

[@middlenerd178]

Also forgot to put this in there but the use of the f slur totally took me out of the episode and I ended up turning the episode off and finishing it later.

[@maja2526]

Great video, definitely put some things into perspective for me! I quite liked the season, but I was disappointed with Jack's plot line, I felt the actor playing her had a lot of charisma and I wanted to like her, but then they went out of their way to make her unlikable. And Colin storyline felt a bit cringy, but I didn't connect the dots why. I guess the queer relationships from season 3 didn't pass the ultimate test of inspiring a lot of fan fiction, so I should've realized sooner something was not right. Fortunately, I can go read Blackbeard and Stede fics and wait for season 2 of OFMD

[@ohthewhomanity]

Unfortunately, Jack’s character fits into a (hopefully unintentional) theme in Ted Lasso - the theme about who can be trusted with power. Who won’t let the power go to their head, when they come into a lot of money or a position of influence in their world? Rupert, Nate, Edwin Akufo, and Jack all abuse their power to hurt vulnerable people around them. In season one, Rebecca does, too - but she alone is shown as able to learn from this and still gets to hold onto her power. Nate has to lose his position of power in order to grow as a character. In the world of Ted Lasso, things can get better when a straight white woman is in charge, but if they’re not white or not straight, it goes wrong to an often comical degree.

[@Chaos-._]

Not sure why my favorite video genre has become "Unhinged Deep Dives", but I am thankful to you for feeding my addiction.

[@Stequal2]

I audibly gasped when you said Glee lmao

[@Lisa_Flowers]

This video is working very well as decompressing for why I was so frustrated with the wonky ass writing in season 3 of Ted Lasso. Like queer stories aside it was bad (Rebecca's bizarre barely existent arc? Nate's deflated and completely unearned redemption???), but the queer stories were especially aggravating. And I didn't know how to articulate why, so thank you for doing the hard work lol. I love the characters of this show so much that I still love Ted Lasso overall, but man, this last season REALLY had to bank on my preexisting attachment to these characters to get me to still love the show. And okay not relevant but Roy, Keeley and Jamie should have just ended up in a polyamourous relationship by the end of the show. And I feel like the writers wanted to do that but were too fucking cowardly. Like how else do you explain the fact that when Roy and Keeley take Jamie to his mom's house when he's in the middle of a breakdown, there are literally posters of BOTH OF THEM on his wall? And yes yes he views Roy as a mentor figure or whatever, but it just gives massive latent attraction vibes, the fact that the posters are right next to each other lmao, like that boy dreamed about getting with both of them. And they literally ask her to CHOOSE between them? Come on people. Just let them all kiss already. You're killing me here.

[@lorrainelynton8789]

You are very right on all counts. I knew there was something that made me feel dissatisfied (enough that I'm writing several tens of thousands of words of 'missing scenes' that run alongside seasons 2 and 3 and will become a continuation just to elaborate on the Roy/Jaime/Keeley situation and Colin and Trent just kind of decided to have their own B plots), I just couldn't put my finger on it. Every plotline in season 3 felt kinda disjointed and rushed, so the way the queer arcs went wasn't as obviously ???? until seperated out and taken as individual pieces. Nate's storyline for example had a lot of 'wait when did that happen?' moments, but if you take each beat it turns into an almost coherent bulletpoint plan for a story, the queer ones don't.

[@__Ari__AAA]

Thank you for finally saying it i get so annoyed when people call relationships ''a love triangle" like no it isn't last time i checked a triangle had 3 lines that all connect to each other.

[@audreyb.9371]

the whole time you were talking about ted lasso i was just saying YES EXACTLY out loud in front of my screen. i was purposefully afraid of looking at discourse on this season bc ted lasso discourse (both positive and negative) can be one of my personal hells but glad to hear someone explaining exactly how i felt the whole time but couldn't quite put into words

[@ashtonstatesman6761]

i dont understand the issue people have with susie's reveal, first off, they already confirmed she was gay in a previous season, miriam took her to a lesbian club. and I really dont think it would make sense for her character to be in a relationship, she's married to her work. I love gay relationships but I think it's fine for a queer character to be single and stay single just like irl people queer people not in relationships arent less queer.

[@theshire9173]

She wasn't confirmed gay in that episode. Susie got mad at Miriam for taking her to a gay bar and left. If anything, I thought this showed that she was aroace. A lot of aroace people are assumed to be gay when people are suspicious of them having no interest in the opposite sex. I was really upset that they didn't have her actually be aroace and just shoehorned a random tragic romance that went nowhere. It felt forced when the aroace identity seemed so obvious.

[@ashtonstatesman6761]

@@theshire9173 I would also like her to be aroace, but i took it as implying she was gay simply because I dont think the creators even know what aroace is.

[@craftyroo9930]

sort of surprised by the absence of Beard on your wall, since his relationship with Ted was seen even within the show as seeming queer. but i agree with your take on the representation issues in S3. lots of Very Special Episodes, and i’m sad about what happened with Jack.

[@lucyo2919]

Absolutely love that you covered this!! Haven’t finished the vid, but when you talked about Colin’s storyline it clicked for me that much of what didn’t make the queer storylines work for me was that it always felt like the show was assuming that I, the viewer, am straight. Even in scenes between queer people, it felt like there was an invisible straight person in the scene who they were unconsciously adapting their behavior for. And it shared that weird thing in Love Simon where they act like “hiding your sexuality” from your friends is an evil thing to do lol (I actually did have one friend who was offended I hadn’t told them sooner, so I guess there’s truth to it, but I’m tired of it feeling legitimized by the narrative lol idk I digress)

[@lucyo2919]

Finished the vid and all I can say is YUP!!! Another banger 👍👍

[@notmoreflippingelves]

Honestly, I think Ted Lasso could've potentially succeeded if they'd given the "closeted in the locker room" plot arc to Jaime. (Keeley, Colin, and Trent can stay queer because the more diversity the better,). One of the other problems with Colin's arc is that while a decent enough character, Colin (and Isaac to be fair) was never really been given enough focus in multiple seasons to make the audience care enough about what he was going through except in a very general sense of "he's on the team and he's gay so we should care about him" And one of the major problems with S3 in general was that it became too ensemble focused with multiple arcs vying for limited air time. But I think it could've worked much more effectively and thematically if we had given this particular "coming out" storyline to Jamie. As he undergoes arguably the most development in the entire series, the audience is already predisposed to care about him and any plot with him would automatically garner more interest. Making Jamie mlm would add additional context and resonance to his troubled relationship w/ his dad (internalized biphobia as a result of externalized homophobia from his dad) and his struggles with toxic masculinity in general. And because Jamie is already one of the "main characters,: adding a few scenes about him dealing w/ his sexuality to the already good scenes for him in S3 would feel much less forced and would pull much less focus from the other characters' stories.

[@yaz_skate]

I love that my main takeaway from this video is rowan knows nothing about football ❤

[@HeyRowanEllis]

You are very correct

[@Scotthasaposse]

What you bring up, about the queer relationship or representation not feeling connected to the theme or having an impact on the story, is what made me love the show Willow so much. Kit and Jade's relationship is established from episode 1 and is the romantic throughline of the show, being inseparable from the main plot, but it's also not the only thing they have to do. They both have individual growth they go through, relationship moments with other characters, and major beats separate from each other in addition to all of the development devoted to their friendship evolving into a full romance. It makes me sad that I haven't seen any of the queer youtubers I follow talk about it because it was remarkably well done.

[@rensins08]

To me this show is great example of what happens when unqualified writers decide to push for diversity or representation of a identity that they not only don't understand but clearly don't care about or respect. Its tossed out there in this half assed way, is completely unsatisfying for the supposed target audience & then if we complain the writers can throw their hands up & say "see we finally gave in & gave them what they wanted & it wasn't enough so why bother?". And honestly as a black lesbian this is something im all to familiar with. When ppl who dont like black ppl or black women are forced to include us, or at least feel forced, we get these horribly stereotypical & harmful storylines. And we're expected to be grateful to be included at all but if we aren't & express it we get gaslit & spoken over. The goal is to shut us down, give us nothing & allow the whole thing to get swept under a rug without any true examination so they can go back to business as usual. I saw the same thing recently when we finally got some representation in America for queer kids. It sounded great until you watch the trailer & realize this queer camp for kids, a place that someone like me could only dream of at my age, is where these kids will go to die as its a horror film & to me that's even worse than a movie displaying our trauma at a conversion camp for queer kids. Its truly maddening to know this is all on purpose & allowed & hardly anyone is actually doing anything about it. Edit: i made this comment while she was speaking about the footballer show. I took care of somethings & came back & now there's more sad things to relate to where a lesbian isnt given anything at all while a gay man is given everything & yea...that tracks. Gay women get screwed over so often simply because their women who don't & won't ever center men. Plain & simple. That's our huge crime: centering ourselves in our own lives which is the oppsite of how women & girls are conditioned from birth.

[@Music34897]

"Why wasn't this a hat trick slam dunk football metaphor?" sounds like me trying to blend in during a meeting full of straight dudes 😂😂😂💀💀💀

[@selmalarsson8920]

I kind of like that Colin was one of the guys who was for looking at and keeping nudes. Colin tries so hard to blend in so no one suspects that he’s gay and that includes making homophobic jokes so I think it makes sense that he would think that looking at leaked nudes would be just normal straight behaviour and it’s his willingness to be homophobic/sexist to hide his own sexuality and that’s what leads to him being outed. Like I didn’t love how it was handled but I did think that made sense.

[@izziward1337]

I agree with a lot of your points, but I didn't read the locker room scene as Colin not wanting to delete his nudes, I read it as him not wanting to go through his nudes in a room full of his friends, in case any of them saw his phone - the way Isaac did.

[@thymeIord]

This is a really interesting video and has me thinking about ace representation, since most allo writers probably won't be able to weave ace representation into a narrative in a way that complements the message/improves the story. I think it still holds for ace representation-eg, Sex Education could have been much more interesting with an ace protagonist; in Bojack Horseman, every conversation about Todd's asexuality also seamlessly addresses the issues weaved into the show. I guess I'm wondering if allo writers can hack it for ace rep, as a general rule. Is there any hope??

[@sarahb6611]

If you’re looking for a religious & problematic queer character who totally works in the context of the show, might I direct you to It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia?

[@evenif7431]

Perfect example of a queer character who is on paper 'bad rep' but who works within the themes and tone of the show: Chris Keller in HBO's Oz

[@dailykaley5370]

I feel like a sucker but I loved Ted's speech in the locker room after Colin came out. So many cishet ppl i know try to be ally's by just saying "It doesn't change anything about how I feel about you" or "i don't care that you're gay/bi/trans/ace/etc" to someone after they come out, which like probably feels like the right thing to say. But hiding who you are can be so painful and even traumatic and you have to pretend that it just didn't happen?? on top of the fact that being queer in any way is also fundamentally a part of your identity and so many cishet people don't want to allow that to be a thing, they'd rather just pretend it doesn't exist. So having Ted tell everyone that it is a big deal and they should celebrate it was rly heartwarming and rly nice to see on a show with as big of an audience as Ted Lasso. I know the main criticism is that it seems like it was done for the purpose of educating a cishet audience but frankly I don't think that is always as big of an issue as people make it out to be. Ted Lasso has a massive audience and many of them are cishet people who are probably not super aware of how they can best support their queer family and friends. And Ted Lasso has always existed in this fantasy space of people learning and growing and stuff, so it made sense given the themes of the show. I am fully ready to be wrong about this, but I really enjoyed it and I saw the effects it had directly on my parents who I think needed to learn that lesson and, yes, maybe it should have been something I taught them but also it's easier to just say, "watch this scene from a TV show to understand why it hurts every time you say you don't care that I am gay/bi/trans/ace/etc". And since my parents were already watching Ted Lasso bc it is so popular and beloved so I didn't have to tell them anything. The show did it for me. And I liked that and think its a net positive. The Jack storyline I will say was a mess, however. But I enjoyed Colin and Trent's stories.

[@floraggio]

It’s incredible how your beautiful brain is capable of making me watch hour-long videos without getting bored or tired or even noticing time going by. I love it that you put into words the feelings I have about representation and sometimes struggle trying to explain to my straight friends and family members. I told my sister I was disappointed at the sapphic storyline in the 3rd season of Ted Lasso, but she just kept telling me: “lesbians can be toxic too! What is the problem with showing that?” And all I could say was: “but the only lesbian in the show HAD to be the toxic love interest?” Thanks for giving me the words to go deeper in that discussion and to better understand my frustration. It sucks that we have to have all these answers to get people to validate our frustrations, but I’m thankful for having all your videos to give me more foundation to my conversations.

[@princessofhell4639]

My 3 favorite queer characters in no particular order Steve Jinks from Warehouse 13, Ava from Warrior Nun and Bess Marvin from Nancy Drew

[@EuphoricPentagram]

Their including queerness, instead of integrating us. It seems inclusion feels like a sticker on a painting, specifically distinct well being technically part of the whole. Whereas integrating feels more like we are another stroke of painting. Literally part of the whole, weaved into it inextricably.

[@Turquerina]

You put it so artistically succinct. When writers have queer characters that are tacked on instead of belonging to the story, it can feel very isolating and alienating. It's not just a matter of good representation at this point, it's about the integrity of the story.

[@lk-l2818]

Exactly. And the fact that queer storylines are only included in later series instead of being there at the beginning adds to that feeling.

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

Love the phrasing of "sticker on a painting".

[@vbrueggeman5756]

My absolute favorite queer character in a show right now (not that it's coming out rn, it's long over) is David from Six Feet Under. Highly recommend that show for a very interesting and well written gay character that is important (one of the 3-4 main characters) and fully realized. The show is a dark comedy and I love it so much... (have not finished it yet, im only on season 2 so no spoilers)

[@MalkavDraconic]

We need a queer version of the Bechdel Test. What that would look like - I personally have no idea.

[@gisela_oliveira]

" a queer character must have some struglle that doesn't envolve their sexuality" would be a good thing. when I was in the world of wattpad and it's original stories, we would debate if "LGBT book" was a genre or not, and i always concluded that you can easily separate sotries in 2 categorys, the ones that are all about being qeer, and the ones werer the character (s) is queer but has otther things going on. the firs group is way bigger than the second one

[@MalkavDraconic]

@@gisela_oliveira As a Queer test needing a struggle is … a questionable term, but I think I get what you mean. I’m an old gay I guess, who did a lot of fantasy and TTRP stuffs. Through that ‘LGBT’ as a fiction category bugs me. It would, most likely, be a secondary category for me. Detective noir and LGBT, is still just detective noir to me. Nonfiction stuffs - hells yeah, there is a call for it as a category.

[@gisela_oliveira]

@@MalkavDraconic I meant like: some characters only personality trait is being queer, Wich is so unrealistic. They should have some other things going on, like, I have a friend that is queer, but his biggest struggle is that he has lupus. You know what I mean? I think writers should consider giving queer characters other problems instead of always being their sexuality

[@lololpoppy]

‘…not being able to acquire T during an apocalypse’ my British brain definitely nodded along to the wrong struggle on this one 😂 just for a beat then the context caught up with me.

[@karinaperdina]

i had a great time when watching ted lasso, but FOR THE LIFE OF ME could not tell what bugged me in the back of my mind... a beautiful essay, thank you for your great work!! always excited to see your new videos! hope your next cup of tea rocks!

[@TheRainydayvideo]

Oh Rowan. I love you and love this format. Your string wall is so cute x

[@greyflash77]

If there’s one thing that fiction podcasts do right, it’s queer representation. Among many other things. I’ve not listened to many fiction podcasts, but two well known, I think, is The Magnus Archives and Welcome to Night Vale. Both podcasts feature quite a diverse cast, though both do have flaws in said diversity, and the queer characters are subtle in how they’re portrayed, for varying reasons. In The Magnus Archives it’s because, quite frankly, everyone has much more important things to do than worry about their gender and/or sexuality. When it is brought up in more minor characters, it either relates to whatever the horror story is (a trans woman who was unable to find other jobs after being outed, a nonbinary person whose relationship with their parents is informed by their disbelief in their knowledge of their gender, etc) or is just there with no explanation, more incidental than anything. With major characters their sexuality (none of them are canonically trans) never has anything to do with their stories, barring just… having same gender couples. In Welcome to Night Vale, queerphobia just… doesn’t exist, except in one episode. There are some allusions to it, using other things as allegory, but all the queer characters are just living their lives. We get two queer neurodivergent main characters, one of which is canonically Jewish and the other of which is canonically Latino, and it’s just there. Not tokenized, or made into a very special lesson, just a part of the characters.

[@shaunaisazombie]

I'm in a book club right now with a lot of people who are also writers and I had one person tell me she hates books with themes because she just wants escapist fantasy and I just about lost my ever loving mind. And I wonder if that's who Ted Lasso and Glee and the rest of the nutritionless, theme-lite shows and books are for.

[@rhys5018]

absolutely in love with this (slightly) less formal video, the asides were pure gold

[@thedashinpsycho]

This question probably haunts me on a daily basis so thank you for helping get one step closer to the answer about representation. I loveeee watching any movie or tv shows that explore queer relationships and characters and coming to this channel to make sense of all of it bc I sure as hell can’t sort it out my self. Hopefully one day I’ll watch a movie or show and my lightbulb finally goes off.

[@grooveisintheturtle]

This is why it is baffling how much Supernatural denied their queerness - Dean and Cas' relationship is THEE reason the story happened. Not outside the story, but the quintessential essence of the story itself. God himself even said so! Dean's sexuality was SO important to his characterisation; it represented breaking free of his Father's narrative of him; finding someone who truly loved all of him as he is. Cas was this male-presenting angel who no longer wanted to be a soldier - representing the rebellion of the three things his Father held above all others: soldier, human, heterosexual (normal). Them choosing each other was a representation of both of them realising that hunting and fighting is not what they really want and finding who there were, together. It's just as important as Sam's constant search for forgiveness and cleansing and understanding that hunting is truly the way he can change the world. Him eventually finding connection and love from someone who had also been internally and permanently changed by a monster when they were a baby; who never let it stop her from being her true hunter self. Dean and Cas, retiring and raising Jack together outside the hunting sphere. Sam and Eileen, leading other hunters to recognise the real monsters and realising their true potential together. So much potential, all of it wasted.

[@marocat4749]

And the worst, dean made way too many jokes and was insecure that it was not bi. And dea and cas went through being basically together, ok lets say cas is ace, they totallywere, dean lost him, he came back, harsh breakup till thy got to learn to trust each oher again and yeah. an raied cas kid together, sam is the cool uncle. Ots already a gay romace, why indeed There wer aalso a lot cool fmale characters that wre killed, imagine jo would dunno get on with pamela, , waste indeed.

[@please_go_away2086]

we gotta talk about Downton abbey.. cause my god not only does Julian Fellowes apparently not know what lesbians are and is heinously classist but that poor gay Valet gets given a different stereotype every season to the point where he’s every stereotype under the sun apart from the dandy by the end of the show.. then the films don’t even get any better cause they give the man a boyfriend then he disappears in the second one because he marries a woman 😭😭 GIVE THE DUDE A REST wont lie tho I absolutely love Thomas hes a walking talking stereotype but he’s the best character in that show

[@nerd-jock]

started howling at the glee comp because you are SO RIGHT. oh my god.

[@a.dreamer2318]

I am so glad you warned me about the representation in Ted Lasso - I have to admit, I had really high hopes for it (haven't seen the show yet, but planning to watch it), since football is a huge part of my life and I need more queer football content. Now I won't be disappointed. I've recently watched the CBBC show Jamie Johnson to appease my inner child, which (judging from your explanation) kind of feels a bit like a children's version of Ted Lasso? It, too, introduces queer characters in later seasons (seasons 4 and 5, to be specific), and I really enjoyed it. Two of the players are fostered by a lesbian couple; and one of the main characters comes out as gay. What I loved so much about this representation is that it highlights the homophobia in football, while still keeping the club as a kind of safe space where prejudice and hate are condemned. Sure, it's not perfect, and the gay storyline felt a bit rushed at times, but I can forgive that, since it's a kid's show. As far as I know, the gay player wasn't intended to be queer from the start, but it still felt like an organic part of his character. I loved that he had an amazing character arc and so many different storylines before it was even hinted that he is gay (honestly, by season 5 he felt more like the main character than the actual main character). Also, his coming out journey is inspired by meeting another gay character who is very confident in his sexuality (I thought the contrast between someone who grew up in a supportive family home vs. someone who grew up with a homophobic father was really well done). It's honestly the kind of representation I wish I had as a kid who loved football and was struggling with internalised homophobia before she even realised she was queer. I think it also fits with your point about themes - the show is all about how a team can become your found family, about growing up and figuring out who you are and who you want to be, and what storyline fits that description better than a queer one? What was my point exactly? I am not quite sure (I just really wanted to ramble about this show), but I guess it's that in the end, "good" representation largely comes down to how it makes you feel as a queer viewer - it may not always be perfect, but if it makes you feel seen, valued and understood, it can't be that bad, can it? Sometimes, you can't exactly pinpoint what is is that makes you feel good about a certain queer storyline. And since we all have different taste, is there really such a thing as objectively "good" representation at all? (I mean, there certainly is bad representation, that's for sure)

[@mooonblooom]

someone needs to make a list of all the shows mentioned in this video because i need to add some to my watch later list

[@Elsie909]

What I have noticed with queer characters is that almost always all of the time the love interest is either already there in an established relationship, or there is a new character introduced that it is obvious is there to be the LI. I don't think I can recall a queer relationship on tv that's grown organically over seasons like straight relationships. If it is a straight ship fans like, it is cute and might happened, if its queer, the fans are delusional and they are "just friends". (And that's why Roy/Jamie is more popular than Colin and ??) With the "queer scenes" in Ted Lasso, I kinda interpreted it a different way than in this video and I liked it hah but I wont go off about that. I think also there is a discussion and distinction about what is "shoehorned" and what is "casual", I long for the day when queer rep is not something "special".

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

"I don't think I can recall a queer relationship on tv that's grown organically over seasons like straight relationships." Haaaaaaaave you met Xena?🙃

[@Elsie909]

@@Itcouldbebunnies Preeetty sure they were not canonically together. If they had been, great! One example!(that proves the rule)

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

@@Elsie909 I can highly recommend 100% Shipper's and Sapphic Underground's videos about Xena, they really dive deep into the (sub)text of the show. Also, Lucy Lawless and Renee O'Connor both said that they were definitely canon. Especially the last season is extremely Sapphic. But you're right, it is just one rare example of a well-portrayed queer couple.

[@bexyPTX]

You just blew my mind a little with your comparison between Ted Lasso and Glee - they are genuinely super similar in vibe but I've never thought about it like that before

[@stardustcreature9546]

Hi! I want to write a paper about the representation in Buffy the Vampire slayer and im having a hard time finding citable sources that talk about (good) queer representation - can you recommend some by chance?

[@tesso200497]

I love Heartbreak High because the queerness is just *there*. It’s a show on sexuality sure but it’s a show on teens and teens are queer! The ace rep will always make me happy

[@Sarah.H5]

This video seemed like it was therapy for poor Rowan. I hope it helped to get all that anger and disappointment out ❤

[@tubercledebacle7677]

“It’s a swings and a miss lads. Sports.” Love it

[@PureStealth]

As a fellow queer woman the outfit you're rocking in this video is such a vibe

[@anyalazor7978]

Thank you for mentioning disabled queer people, we are so rarely talked about. I have so many more thoughts but don't have the energy so just - thank you for this video 💙

[@randomripoff123]

long comment incoming. more abt the show (ted lasso) in general, not abt queer rep, bc i do agree w all your points there. my entire thought about season 3 and its apparent scatteredness and things "going nowhere"--is that it was deliberately departing from the structure of previous seasons because it was meant to be about ted's eventual journey home, and therefore was exploring his metaphorical then literal absence. he's been dorothy all along (it's even literally his mom's name) and he was always going to return home to kansas. like, that wasn't a secret. and s3 opens and closes on a shot of ted's face, the way s1 was on rebecca and s2 was on nate. the scatteredness of it all was ultimately ted's absence & everyone having to navigate things mostly without him. they, as characters, were narratively brought forward and it was more of a traditional ensemble show where we got more of their lives--and because there are so many of them and so many things to Do, a lot of it was left feeling unsatisfying if what you want is full explorations of their lives. which i get! i also wanted that! and all of them feel disconnected in some ways bc, well, their lives are disconnected in those ways. but each bit did ultimately serve a kind of purpose. the "problem" i guess with the show is that a LOT of its themes and writings are left VERY subtle that you HAVE to go back and *rewatch* to catch them. keeley hires shandy because rebecca told keeley to "hire her best friend". keeley thought shandy was her best friend--turns out she wasn't, and keeley has changed more as a person than she initially thought. rebecca's eventual involvement isn't keeley relying on rich women in her life (though i do get that--various elements of wealth in the show sure are uhhh something lol)--it's the realization that keeley and rebecca are best friends. and it's ALSO the eventual revelation that barbara misjudged keeley, and THEY become best friends. it can still be up for like, criticism, etc., but shandy's involvement serves that specific purpose, and i only understood upon a rewatch. but mainly the reason s3 feels scattered and weird is bc of ted's metaphorical absence and his impending departure & the need for everyone in the show to figure their shit out on their own. the deeply unfortunate side effect of that is things coming off as didactic and after-school-special-y in some ways bc of limited time spent on them. i don't think it's just the awareness of pitfalls, it's the side effect of trying to fit in and narratively sustain various characters and story beats. like the implication of sam's situation isn't that they solved racism or everything is okay now, it's that he's allowed to be outspoken, bc he will have ppl backing him up (much like the dubai air thing in s2). they don't continue exploring that bc that, alone, would deserve its own show. and then you have colin--which, again, if you go back and watch s1 and s2, especially s2, there's actually a lot of foreshadowing and character exploration through themes and motifs. nate's tirade against colin (he's unimportant, unimpressive, the kind of painting that hangs on the wall of a hotel; all the while colin is wearing camo and there are a few jokes abt how ppl aren't actually Seeing him) is a perfect setup for colin's eventual triumph in s3, being responsible for helping them win several games and finally gaining notoriety, bc he allows himself to come out--literally but also as a player. i also didn't see his coming out as "saving" isaac--and colin *does* talk to trent about it and how he feels, but yes, i agree, parts of colin's story feel v much Educational (which to me checks out considering how many ppl in actual irl football also watched the show, evidenced by the coach guest star in s3), but they at least gave him character moments and reasons that it doesn't feel totally flat--it was more motivated by the fact that they were all speculating abt isaac and *seeming okay about it*. it was the proof he needed that he *could* come out, and what better opportunity than that moment? and also as irritating as it is that it couldn't be like, more abt colin in that episode, it wasn't just The Straights' Feelings, it was specifically just isaac bc they've been a duo this whole time. i also am still iffy abt elements of it, but it was partially abt isaac bc they were being treated as a duo. relatedly, colin takes that shitty position abt nudes to try and continue pretending to be straight--it's just that apparently the team has moved past that for the most part. though he's NOT the only one making the argument or saying shit, he's just the most notable one talking abt the nudes leak in a skeevy way to pretend to be straight. and i felt like jack's thing abt keeley's video was a reveal abt her valuing her social position more than she values freedom and self-expression, or the real meaning of self-respect, etc. yes, the lesbian was slut shaming, which sucks. but that relationship felt more of an exploration of keeley "moving on up" and feeling like she's grown from her past (shandy--whom she hires/fires for aforementioned reasons) and then realizing she still doesn't "fit in" there with jack bc of stupid societal expectations. the relationship existed to confirm her bisexuality, give her some exploration outside of jamie and roy, and allowed her to figure out and solidify her own sense of self and place in the world, some more. again, still up for criticism, but it did feel like it achieved things. and with that in mind it does unfortunately make sense that she would reject BOTH roy and jamie (who get into their fight bc they had resolved all issues between them EXCEPT for keeley, and roy is the one who really starts it, and he's the one who finally goes to see dr. sharon) and instead rebuild relationships from there. the show very much knew it was an actual love triangle--jamie's room is absolute confirmation of that. but it felt like a "not yet" situation bc roy needed to work on himself, now that keeley and jamie had really dived into their own shit. the entire season also did this thing that ppl seemed to hate, as you note--not showing us the direct moments. colin coming out, ted telling rebecca he's leaving, roy & keeley's breakup, idk various things. &that, too, felt more in-line w the show upon rewatching & thinking abt it. bc it's not The Big Moments that we build up in our heads that really matter, it's what happens after and around them. and that's what the show was more interested in putting onscreen. again, still open to criticism, but it did make sense. anyway. i could go on. s3 really makes more sense if you rewatch all 3 seasons closer together. bc for e.g., you mention that nate in s2 takes a lot of stuff out on will the kitman, but forgot the part where a major thing he does is completely dig into colin for no fucking reason other than he seems like an easy target to him. and that really sets up for s3 for colin. also colin's bf's name is michael, and i wish we'd seen him more, too, to figure out their dynamic more (but we do see hints of him in s2, i believe--like they HAD planned this from the start, that much is clear). there were some key opportunities missed, i wished we'd gotten them in s3. //shrug. also technically will the kitman is also confirmed queer bc that boy went and had an enthusiastic threesome in amsterdam 👀 lol but yeah, idk. a lot of things make sense upon rewatching and close listening, and a reexamination of themes n shit. //shrug. also i know it's not queer rep but the show did straight-bait very deliberately which i do find hilarious and it will always have a very warm, wonderful place in my heart for that reason. i literally didn't even know people shipped ted and rebecca until the internet poisoned my brain while s3 was airing. i had NO IDEA people thought they were endgame and i was like ????? in what universe? they will literally never end up together??? like good god the best place to look for deep misreadings of entire scenes and interactions is ppl who ship them talking abt their interactions. anyway. and then it played out like that and i was like "oh this is hilarious and delicious." lol

[@Kim-iz5fx]

I'm always so baffled and impressed by your video essays. Wow. How are you questioning everything and still so clear and brilliant and awesome. Thank you Rowan ❤