The Rise of the Mary Sue (Rey, Galadriel and Jane Foster)

Throughout the last few years in Hollywood, it has become increasingly common to see the Mary Sue in modern movies. Whether those are super hero characters like Jane Foster, or fantasy characters like Rey, the Mary Sue is varied and cringeworthy no matter their forms.
Join me as we discuss the rise of the Mary Sue and just how unlikeable this character can be.

[@darktenor4967]

I'm afraid your one Mary sue example I disagree with is Cinderella. Cinderella was originally included by the brothers grim to show case German, feminine virtues such as hard work and patience. she suffers a good amount of abuse and misfortune at the hands of her mother and stepsisters, and even during the Disney film, is profoundly upset by the tearing of her dress and her inability to go to the ball. You might be correct in your analyses of other princesses, though I'll add that at least the older fairy tale princess type Mary sue characters like snow white were still charming, graceful and compassionate, (and Modern Mary Sues don't even have that to recommend them.

[@AlecEburhard]

Plus it could be argued that Cinderella does have a flaw in the sense that she is too passive to stand up for herself to her evil stepmother and sisters until the end.

[@darktenor4967]

@@AlecEburhard In the original Cinderella, Cinderella's patience under her mistreatment was seen as a Christian virtue by the brother's grim, hence why at the end of the story it's Cinderella who gets the reward of the prince; , and her family who abused a patient and uncomplaining girl, who get their eyes pecked out by ravenous birds! On the one hand, yes, one could see cinderella's patience as a flaw, since she allowed her mistreatment to continue. On the other hand, I actually myself think patience is one of the least regarded virtues, for men or women, indeed if you asked me to define what I find an example of true heroism, I'll tell you it's not people who are strong, or brave or conquer great odds, it's people who simply endure hardship for the sake of others till the end. One reason why Frodo is my personal ideal of a hero, even over the likes of Aragorn. so, looked at one way, Cinderella (especially in the Disney), could be seen as someone too passive to walk out of her abusive situation, looked at the other, she's extremely virtuous for her uncomplaining patience in the face of adversity. I'm not sure which of these interpretations is correct, but either way, adversity she certainly has, and therefore heroism, unlike the typical Mary Sue, indeed lack of patience is an extremely common trait of Mary sue characters whether the "I can do so much more!" syndrome, or the "I'm strong enough to punch out of this bad situation" trope. btw, if you want to see an awesome retelling of Cinderella which does! distinguish between patience and passivity, and shows a flawed but awesome view of the character, check out the lunar chronicles Cinder by Marissa Meyer, a scifi retelling where Cinder is a cyborg mechanic, who fixes robots, and even builds her own pumpkin shaped hover car! (no fairy godmother, she gets to the ball through her own hard work). The rest of the series is also great too for updates on classic fairy tales (I especially loved Cress, Meyer's version of Rapunzel,).

[@Faro-tb3sk]

Yes, I agree. Also: Cinderella needs fairy magic to succeed. A real MS would not need any form of external help.

[@darktenor4967]

@@Faro-tb3sk It depends upon the level of Help. I've seen Mary Sue characters receive what is apparently help, but actually is just a confirmation of their own specialness, think Rey and Maz Kanata in The force awakens. To an extent the fairy godmother does fall into this roll, since she basically just turns up and confirms Cinderella's inner beauty, this is why I prefer those telling's of Cinderella, such as Grim's original where Cinderella waters a tree over her mother's grave and receives the glass slippers and beautiful dress from that tree, or Marissa Meyer's retelling where Cinder directly builds her own pumpkin coach and modifies her own dress, where Cinderella's own hard work directly leads to the reward. Btw, since writing my original comment Little platoon has a fascinating discussion in his analyses of the Disney little mermaid film about the differences between fairy tales for boys, and those for girls. In general boy characters, jack and the beanstalk, Aladin, the miller's son in puss in boots, start off flawed and need to overcome an obstacle, build something or change themselves to succeed. While girl characters, including sleeping beauty, the princess and the pea, snow white, and indeed Cinderella, start off already pure and beautiful and perfect, and merely need to endure long enough for the world to recognize that fact. of course this isn't universally true, but it is a really interesting discussion, and goes some way in explaining the Mary sue phenomenon, particularly in the recent very female-centric Disney films, and is a discussion I'd highly recommend looking at.

[@Faro-tb3sk]

@@darktenor4967 I dislike Mary Sues like Rey, but not the female characters from old fairy tales. There seems to be a difference between the two. For example the older characters lack real power. They have no combat skills, political power, supernatural power and they are not awesome at some random skill. They seem to be very modest(without the author telling us how modest they are). Yes, they are always beautiful but isn't this some form of trope for female fairy tale characters? The bad ones are ugly, the good ones are beautiful. This probably mirrors the worldview of the 18th and early 19th century, but I also think their beauty advances the story. It makes the jealousy of other characters much more believable. Snow White or Cinderella would make little sense if the queen or the stepsisters were more beautiful than the main characters. Modern Mary Sues on the other hand are beautiful just because the author wishes them to be beautiful. Their beauty is absolutely meaningless to the story. It is just the cherry on top of the cake. They are perfect versions of someone the author idolizes. I also think that the magic bird and the fairy godmother(Sorry I only know the Grimm and Disney versions) are more like agents of poetic justice: This girl is treated badly, she could never help herself out of her miserable situation, so they step in and change things for the better. They do not do this because she is perfect but because she is treated unfairly. Without the help of them she would be left to a life of hardship and could never change her life. This tension makes the story interesting (to me). In the story Cinderella becomes a princess but when I close the book I know it is not real. Birds/fairies don't gift you with golden dresses and stepchildren - at least at the time the story was written - were probably poor souls. It makes me empathize with girls like that which I think is a good thing. My problem with (modern) Mary Sues is that there is no drama involved. The author just wants to show you the superiority of their Mary Sue and little else. The story and all other characters are secondary. When you close a book with a Mary Sue you just know that the author wishes that some person they like or identify with could be perfect.

[@spider-ball]

I see your thesis and will raise you this: the Princesses are not Mary Sues but Fairy Tale characters, and they are intended for stories aimed at little kids who are not expected to do anything. The problem we're seeing in today's media is there are too many characters who are passive (Katniss) and are given incredible superpowers ("Guyladriel", Korra, MA-REY SUUUUUE) so they can solve their problems with no effort. And let's not forget the underlying assumption in all of these characters: you would only need to make all of these "girls are better than boys" scenes in fiction if you already believed that the opposite was true in reality.

[@tufab3494]

Galadriel is pure fairy tale and was created by Tolkien...

[@thevelbaetum4118]

​@@tufab3494they mean the galadriel in rings of power, the REAL galadriel was a 7'0+ tall Ancient beauty, who was wise and powerful similar to a wizard, and she stayed in middle earth for love.

[@tufab3494]

​@@thevelbaetum4118 Oh, I had forgotten about the existence of that series. When I think about Galadriel, I remember Cate Blanchett's depiction of the character in The Hobbit

[@brigui22]

I’m sorry but I have to stop you right there. Scarlet Witch is not a Mary Sue. You discredited your argument I was emphatically awaiting to hear but will unfortunately go no further.

[@bandman83]

Excellent video. Not sure if I would consider Cinderella and Snow White as Mary Sues. We got to witness Cinderella at a low point once her dress was ripped apart by her step sisters, and her chances to meet the prince was nil. Her strength was her optimism, but then when we see her cry she was beginning to have doubts. Snow White was young and naive which led to her death.

[@庫倫亞利克]

The scariest part about Mary Sues is that they have no hair, just like black holes: there are no difference between any two given Mary Sues. You can insert Galadriel into Captain Marvel's vacancy and it won't be any different, both are mean-spirited, misandrist narcissists who think violence is the best solution to any given answer. Same goes with Reva, She-Hulk, Wendy from the new abomination of an adaptation, etc. Meanwhile Frodo and Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker are very different characters despite all fitting into the Hero's Journey mold. Swapping their places would make the story an incongruent mess.

[@godzillazfriction]

so that's the essence of what a 'Mary Sue' is according to you... ok then.

[@庫倫亞利克]

@@godzillazfriction Still better than most definitions used by Disney shills.

[@tisvana18]

Cinderella isn’t a Mary Sue, and saying that weakens the argument of the video. If she were written today, she’d be sassy and fighting back against the system, she’d be a girl boss, she’d be snarky. That’s NOT what Cinderella is. She’s a celebration of femininity, of the beauty and value of traditionally feminine virtues. Her patience and kindness are supposed to be superhuman, she is a morality story and is rewarded for choosing to be gentle rather than nasty like her stepsisters. Part of the problem with modern protagonists is how unwilling they are to give anybody traditionally feminine values. The women have to talk like men, walk like men, fight like men. Anything less is worthless. Men have to be impulsive, snarky, and lack emotional intelligence. Anything more is weak. Femininity and traditionally feminine traits aren’t bad. Making a “girl boss” character who Isn’t Like the Other Girls is just another way of saying that being a woman is bad. To be a good woman, you have to act like a man. I’m just saying, we could use more heroes of both genders that exemplify Cinderella. Patience, kindness, gentle, caring. The best heroes of movies past have a lot more in common with Cinderella than they have different.

[@bitfusionsouthafrica]

Please don't disrespect the first strong female protoganist ever (according to her), that Hunger Games actress... I forget her name... Is it Jennifer Lawrence 🤔

[@nerdword07]

Oh my goodness! How could I have ever forgotten about her? 😂😂😂

[@orvaldurgumundson1809]

She's Candice i hope I'm spelling this right

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

​@@nerdword07>>> At least you are not the...FIRST...to forget about her. 😉

[@EliMaasbach]

Yea and she was actually written right instead of getting all her perfections right of the bat

[@choijinri1914]

​@@orvaldurgumundson1809Katniss Everdeen

[@phoebea]

I wouldn't say that the fairytale princesses are flawless. Their flaw is their naivete. Cinderella is a bit of a doormat until she falls in love with the prince. Aurora didn't follow the fairies' warning and gets tricked/mind-controlled by Maleficent. Snow White is too trusting to the point that she ate a poisoned apple offered to her by a stranger. I don't think that these characters are Mary Sues.

[@adam-k]

Exactly they generally need help of other characters because of their weaknesses.

[@filipefranca5866]

This and they are a meta characters. They are what children think they are. They represent a pattern of behavior that happens in all little girls growing up

[@ohifonlyx33]

To me, the most annoying aspect is when a character is praised for her worst traits because it's seen as a strength or something. There's no self-awareness and little-to-no chance at introspection or growth because everyone hails her as a perfect modern woman and a Strong Female Character™ when actually she is a borderline narcissist, sometimes with signs of sociopathy. Take, for example, a character I personally can NOT stand--Lois Lane (particularly from Smallville). She's nosy, brash and bossy, smug, entitled, and cloying--but those awful traits are seen as a sign that she's smart, strong, confident, and independent... when really she needs to mind her business and shut up and show some humility. I feel the same way about River Song (and to less offensive degrees, Clara Oswald and Amy Pond) from Doctor Who and Captain Brie Marvel. It's particularly offensive to me (who enjoys the romance angst that comes with a good hero love story) when the "Strong Woman" is rewarded with the male hero's love and admiration... and most especially when she replaces a more likable, more complex, generally more feminine woman who is overshadowed by the Girl Boss (think how the sassy Mary Jane Watson is known as the Main Love for Spider-Man, even though the sweet Gwen Stacy was called the love of Peter's life).

[@jemazondo9331]

The talent is there. This bs that we see is all done on purpose.

[@separator94]

Yes. It's 100% an agenda. It's been happening for a very long time but ramped up tremendously over the past 5 years. It's really sad to see.

[@armouredghoul8279]

Exactly, this is also not the first time in history that the d e m o n c r a t s do this.

[@bezymjannaja]

Cinderella is definitely NOT Mary Sue! She worked hard and got her trophy at the end. You misconcepted.

[@BikeStuffPDX]

In some ways she is, at least in the movie version. While slaving around for her sisters might give her a toned body and build character, being able to succeed in high society is also a skill as shown in many movies but she seems to just be able to do it with little to no preparation.

[@mouseutopiadystopia24601]

Yes and no. She at least demonstrated virtue, so we are happy for her being rewarded at the end. Most modern Mary Sues don't even demonstrate personal virtue, so Cinderella isn't too bad. However, she doesn't really have a character arc or any particular character flaws. She is basically a virtuous damsel who deserved to be rescued. I suppose she could have been less of a Mary Sue if we saw her develop her virtues during her life of servitude, but the movie (that's my only source) starts with her virtues already in place and never having had any vice.

[@Bamazon1990]

I really liked Rey. But having her beat Kylo Ren in their first fight doomed both their characters. I could never take him seriously after that, and I liked her but never for a second was I concerned about her because she knew everything and was stronger than the main villain from the start. Galadriel was TRASH she should be taught in film school for nuclear level Mary Sue Karen I still can’t believe that they did to her.

[@Surllio]

My take away from Kylo and Rey's first fight was that Kylo was injured and not trying to win but convince her to join him. Rey was fighting to survive, and when she showed some skill, it caught him on the backfoot. It wasn't exactly handled right, but from a writets perspective, that was my take away. What doomed Rey was Abbrams insistence on making her lineage a point of interest in a mystery box format, knowing (at the time) he was only there for 1 film. It created conversation, but it also means there was no answer that would appease the audience. The Last Jedi, for all irs flaws, had it right by making her a nobody, because it opens up the universe away from destined bloodlines and allows more characters. Abbrams is a storyteller who 1) thinks mystery boxes are the selling point but never cares about solution, 2) prefers action to dialogue and never gives his characters time to breath, and 3) is a spectacle over story director. The sequel trilogy is a bungled mess, but it had some strong points. Disney was too quick to react to fan backlash and the Chinese market to try and stick the landing and kept back-pedeling and course correcting. You can't do that in writing because the patchwork shows through.

[@Bamazon1990]

@@Surllio but he didn't know who she was so he had no reason to spare her life. they made it look like she literally won the fight, it should have been more like wow she held her own! The problem is HE was the main villain, and already chumped! I saw him as weak after that for the rest of the series. even though they are both amazing actors and did excellent jobs with their characters. Maybe that's why each new Star Wars movie made less money than the last one

[@bobross1829]

@@Surllio I have seen your argument before and the amount of time people spend having to "explain" the bad plot, characters and motivations of the sequels tells you they were bad movies. You should not need to explain basic plot stuff years after a movie came out for it to make sense. Rey shouldnt have had any skill. LOL. And I have never seen a movie before where the main bad guy of the whole trilogy was defeated by the "hero" in the first fight. It is just awful storytelling and it was done because she was a girl and Hollywood wants all girl characters to be "awesome"

[@bobross1829]

Agree, I hated the first one just as much as the other two. I thought the first one was pretty bad up to the Rey/Kylo fight, but after that it just ruined the whole movie for me. I never seen the main bad guy defeated by anyone like that right out of the gate. It was just so eye-rolling. At the time I did not know about the mary sue stuff and what Hollywood was doing with this political nonsense of making all females "awesome". But I could tell right there something was badly off. Then I started seeing it over and over in other movies and realized it was a "thing".

[@Agynessdin]

@@bobross1829 "defeated by the "hero" in the first fight" might be good for his character development, if handled right

[@kendrom]

The Mary Sue character wasn’t intentional on the part of Hollywood. It’s just the byproduct when your primary goal is merely to out perform men. That’s the storyline of each and every one of these movies…girls good…boys bad.

[@GungKrisna12]

So it's all agenda

[@georgekanyoni8029]

Reminds me of America Chavez in Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, and Mulan in the 2020 remake.

[@dibaterman]

Yeah even Sith study Sith heritage to understand the Dark Side, it isn't just pure angst all the time. Jedi are literally warrior scholars. On the plus side no one can say Luke was a Mary Sue XD.

[@mishaalkisan1688]

An example an actually good “strong woman” in my recent findings would actually be Captain Amelia from Treasure Planet. I think a lot of writers try to weite her archetype today - but the major difference is unlike a lot of modern female characters today, Captain Amelia isn’t a straight up a-hole for no apparent reason, she has an established and logical reasoning behind her current skills, and she isn’t a one man army either - she joins up with the protagonist group to help fight the antagonists. You could argue that she’s a minor character but there are a few things I like about her. Just like a good leader, she listens to alternate solutions from other characters - and like a charismatic person, she’s also somewhat playful with one of the other characters (which she does end up being with and having a family with him at the end of the film). A more recent example would be Michael Burnham from Star Treck discovery - imo, she’s also a “strong female character” done right. The show isn’t afraid to show that she has humane weaknesses and also shows her loosing some fights or needing assistance from allies - at the dame time she, and rightfully so, has times to shine. While not a big and huge dramatic change, she has a character arc we see throughout the series. She’s by no means perfect snd the show makes that clear - she even gets chewed out for it a few times cause, as one of the characters correctly says, she has a matyr complex. And again, she’s also not an a-hole, she becomes food friends with what was essentially a cinnamon roll of a character, Tilly. No weird exposition is given as Michael isn’t told or said that she’s a strong capable woman - she just shows that she is and convinces the audience too. And she doesn’t bring down or rely on male characters being incompetent or imasculine either.

[@nunyafuckinbizniz]

Burnham is a Mary Sue

[@knotgradaunknown7414]

These movies really did their girls dirty. In particular Ray, a lot of the skills she shows TFA can be attributed to her scavenger profession, free climbing, repelling, basic to moderate self defense, mechanical knowledge an intuition that seems common among force sensitives, also it`s reasonable to have missed that she tells Finn she`s flown the Millennium Falcon just not off planet, which also poorly explains how she knew what was wrong with the Falcon.

[@fortcastellan1730]

In defense of the old-school Disney Princesses...I'd argue that a big part of being a Mary Sue is being pushed as the main character. A flawless main character can be insufferable (unless going against absolutely insane odds, and suffering in the struggle as in old pulp stories) but a flawless side character is just...kinda there. I'd offer up Pheonix from "Top Gun Maverick" as an example. She has no character obvious defects, she undergoes no arc beyond 'get good'...she mostly just acts as the audience's avatar/guide. But she also doesn't intrude on the character-arcs of the main characters, and so it's pretty hard to hate her. The Classic Disney Princess is in a similar position. Yes, the story revolves around them, and they don't have much of an arc...but neither are they the driving force of the story. In Snow White, the villain is defeated by the Dwarves. In Sleeping Beauty, the Flora, Fauna, Merryweather, and eventually Prince Phillip lead the fight against Maleficent. In Cinderella, the mice and the Fairy godmother are at least as pro-active as Cinderella herself. Sure, the Renaissance Princesses take a more active role in the story, but they also have to learn something along the way...

[@thevelbaetum4118]

2:15, i would like to combat the 'they have no flaws' arguement towards the princesses, Cinderella doesnt really push back against her situation, she just lets it happen, and while thats not exactly a flaw, its easily something she could've escaped, I'll also say here that these movies sole purpose was to be a perfect fairy tail, non of the characters really have flaws except the villians, and for children who are the intended audience, thats perfectly fine. Snow white: She's very naieve and quick to trust, but we see the beginnings of that changing when she doesn't immediately help the evil queen when she is disguised as a witch. Aurora: probably the least flawed here? The only gripe i think you could make is that she is over-eager but you probably would be to if you were raised in isolation. I'm just someone who thinks people are over critical to the princesses, mind me

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

@nerdword07 >>> Having these types of characters repeatedly portrayed vaguely reminds me of something said by J. Michael Straczinski, the creator of the science fiction TV show *BABYLON 5:* *_"The monster never sees a monster in the mirror."_*

[@keithartworker]

Just as an exercise in contrast, I would love to see AI make Fargo with Frances McDormand's character as a Mary Sue. That way, it could be a side-by-side of what not to do.

[@stuartblack7002]

Foster's behaviour is that of a villain with hubris, about to fall because of it.

[@Oldschool1943]

Alice from resident evil is also a mary sue as well even though struggles rarely she's still overall a mary sue. bcuz of the writing tried to portray her to be perfect in every way.

[@nosfonader8792]

Forgot the part where her powers were taken away, twice. And she was a recent clone in a long line of clones made to resist the virus.

[@jamesmary8953]

@@nosfonader8792 She's nowhere near as annoying as the majority of woke, Mary Sue-type characters, dude. XD

[@gatorb8610]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do have to say that I have seen a Mary sue character work pretty well recently. The character I’m talking about is sassy the Sasquatch from the big lez show. Everyone loves sassy dispite his constant drugging, and most issues he faces are resolved near instantaneously. I think he works in big lez because he’s used as a very unique plot device, but in the sassy show which focuses on him, I can tell jarrad wright really had to get creative to make a compelling narrative around such a character. There’s a lot of videos focusing on bad use of Mary Sue’s but I thought it was rlly cool how u mentioned how they were used better in times passed so I wanted to tell you this so you know it’s still being done… at least by an Aussie using MS paint lol.

[@robertdrash1105]

I gotta disagree with your old school Mary Sue examples. I agree that the Disney Princesses that you listed would likely come off as boring if they were brought into the modern age exactly as they were, but they didn't exhibit the hyper-competence associated with a Mary Sue. Simply be beautiful a pure hearted isn't enough to qualify. As for Bond I agree he fits many of the criteria, but there is an important element that disqualifies him at least according to my personal criteria for a Mary Sue. His stories are good, and he isn't the only character in them that gets the spotlight.

[@darkengine5931]

For me, it's not even hyper-competence and having very idealistic traits that made the original Mary Sue in the Trekkie fanfiction so absurd and the overall storytelling so inept. There are many idealized, hyper-competent characters throughout history -- both male and female -- that we've admired and found compelling in ways unlike the original Mary Sue (and despite being just as idealistic). From my perspective, it's instead the way the whole world seems to be implausibly bending to accommodate her by the most obviously heavy-handed and manipulative writing. Making the character flawed and incompetent would actually make that worse if the world was still warping to him/her the same way. In "A Trekkie's Tale", at least the original Mary Sue was described as being extraordinarily beautiful, smart, and kind to explain why Kirk would be instantly infatuated with her and Spock so impressed by her logic. Imagine if she was described as plain, bipolar, and emotionally unstable, but Kirk still fell in love with her at first sight and Spock still found her so supremely logical. I'm sure we'd agree that this would be even worse as now the world would be distorting itself even more than the original fanfiction to suit her! So being hyper-competent isn't the real problem from my perspective. It's the world being distorted to suit the character, like rendering all surrounding characters incompetent to make a protag look competent, when a character who is nasty to everyone still has people admiring him/her, when a girl that's 5'2 and 115lbs with no superpowers can beat up three trained men twice her size bare-handed, when an antisocial neckbeard can magically become the life of the party (without any actual magic powers), when a person can be healthy at any size, etc. Actually making James Bond more competent would make him less of a Mary Sue in my opinion (if we consider this on a spectrum), not more. Imagine if he's still such a successful double agent and admired left and right by women despite having a speech impediment, being 4'8, morbidly obese, physically and mentally disabled, and with a serious case of halitosis. That would actually make him more of a Mary Sue as I see it, not less, because it would make what's going on around him even more implausible, and it would make his plot armor seem a hundred times thicker than it already is. It would make his accomplishments even more absurd than Austin Powers, and without utilizing the absurdity to comedic effect. This absurdity is what creates the true Mary Sue, not hyper-competence, but the sheer implausibility of how the world behaves around them: they defy physics, anatomy, psychology, and so forth, in such a way and in such a serious tone where we can no longer even remotely suspend our disbelief.

[@keoghanwhimsically2268]

I think you dilute your own message by including characters such as Cinderella, Snow White, et al. as early examples of the Mary Sue archetype. They are missing some critical and essential characteristics that make the modern Mary Sue so annoying and ultimately boring: hyper-competence, and unflinching regard from those around her including enemies. While those characters may have show competence in specific areas, none of them had either the skills or wherewithal to lift themselves out of their circumstances, and needed tremendous, miraculous help to do so. Their basic story arc was more to present that patient virtue itself, even in the presence of great adversity will ultimately be rewarded by the world. You can dislike that archetypal arc, but that doesn’t make it much at all like the modern Mary Sue. And while their enemies may have regarded them to be virtuous, this neither caused these enemies to hold the main character in high regard nor consider their persecution of her unjustified. The individual elements of character and story that come together to make a “Mary Sue” character may well be present in perfectly interesting and good stories without reducing the enjoyability of it. They can even work well together in a story when they characterize not the protagonist but the villain/antagonist. That’s probably why many stories with Mary Sue (or the male equivalent) characters read like villain-protagonist stories. Unfortunately because the creator often does nto recognize what they’re actually doing, these stories often get boring fast.

[@AuoraWolf5911]

At this point Rey is such a Mary sue that the term Mary Sue should be renamed A Rey

[@redastair]

The non-hero with a single face. Campbell formalised the story archetypes and why they were so important to us and resonated with out internal sense of meaning. No it's the same flat-line of story arch: brilliant person (women) is perfect from the start and perfect at the end. That is, apparently, empowerment.

[@spartan5713]

It’s like these studios don’t realize or don’t care there were beloved female characters for years: Ellen Ripley, Marian Ravenwood, The Bride, Princess Leia (original trilogy), Clarice Starling, Sarah Connor, and Elle Woods…Furiosa from the new Mad Max film I’d count too. They were strong, but also flawed, and not indestructible.

[@patrickkelmer6290]

“Yeah but everyone is in love with me! Like Snape and Loopin took a video of me naked. Hargrid says he’s in love with me. Vampire likes me and now even Snaketail is in love with me! I just wanna be with you ok Draco! Why couldn’t Satan have made me less beautiful?” I shouted angrily. (an” don’t wory enoby isn’t a snob or anyfing but a lot of ppl hav told her shes pretty) “Im good at too many things! WHY CAN’T I JUST BE NORMAL? IT’S A FUCKING CURSE!” I shouted and then I ran away.

[@lalallama2298]

As I expected, a video with Rey in it was one of the first things to show up when I searched "Mary Sue" on KZbin.

[@gibster9624]

I just find it funny how for years we could all collectively agree that Superman stories were Gary Stu's and no one had a problem calling them out although we never gave it a hard label but with how common they became in fan fiction and almost always female characters the name came to light and now the same stories are being done over and over again with women but now you're not allowed to call it out.

[@THE16THPHANTOM]

i like her description of amazons Galadriel. especially about how she is perpetually pissed off and the threats to end the life of anyone who looks at her funny and people she does that to going along with it, as if they know she has God Mode activated at all times in their world.

[@sdsloveslife]

Thank you for this excellent analysis and commentary.

[@nerdword07]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@JeromeBellon]

There have been many strong women in fiction for... longer than I know of. And they were better written than these batch of Mary Sues brought about mostly by their author's agenda than by proper character setup and development. I'm particularly a fan of the works of Masamune Shirow (Orion, Appleseed, Ghost in the shell) who always feature strong female protagonists. They are strong, but not invincible. Confident, but not unfailing. Skilled, but not at everything. And they grow as the story progress. They make choices, and mistakes too. They are characters like many others. They are not Mary Sues. Then there are also stories of strong characters. Superman is probably the most famous. Recently in anime, you get Momonga/Ainz Ooal Gown (Overlord) or Saitama (One-punch man). They range from very powerful, to comically overpowered, but there is still struggle and character progression in their respective stories. Because their strength doesn't equate perfection. For female examples, Wonder Woman (in the 2017 movie) was excellently written. (Though the story itself botched the last section when she confronts Ares.) She was nearly invincible physically, but she was overconfident, ignorant of the state of the world and narrow-minded in her pursuit of the bad guy. In the Star Wars universe, from the very start, we already had Leia in the original trilogy, though she wasn't the main protagonist. Confident, good at leadership, but neither a great fighter nor pilot herself. She had strong points, but she wasn't good at everything. And she didn't need "perfection" for her to make an impact both in universe, and in the real world. We can go on with Ripley, Sarah Connors, and many more. Strong female protagonists don't need to be perfect or invincible to be great and engaging characters. Being perfect literally means that there is nothing to improve, which means there is no story to tell. So no matter what kind of character you make, even the strongest there is in their respective universe, doesn't mean you can't introduce some flaw and struggle. Quite the opposite. And that's the lesson that those Mary Sue authors fail to realize: perfection doesn't make a character interesting. Succeeding at everything immediately better than other characters already established as "the best" at their respective specialized skillset, not showing any psychological weakness to overcome either, being liked by anyone for no clear reason (except the bad guys... some of them) and at times near literally stealing the achievements of previous protagonists... is just boring. But there seems to be this unfounded "understanding" in some communities of highly paid writers that making a strong female character means that she cannot fail in any way... because that would mean weakness, not strength. Clearly, they have never read or watched anything about any iconic hero in all of fiction, male and female alike. Regardless of their strength, they have some weaknesses and they struggle. That's the whole point of their stories. They should take up some classic novels and movies, comic books, even manga. Basically, checking what works and why. I'm not a writer myself, but I can see how utterly useless "perfect" characters are. How can these professional be blind to this basic concept?

[@YouTubeYosh]

Great videos. Keep up the good work and good luck with the channel.

[@martinkunz7155]

Star wars sequel could have been good if they had the balls to actually redeem kylo and make rey fall to the dark side and make her the villain. And in conclusion they figure out something new and end that old jedi vs. sith conflict for good

[@listianocrowe]

I was looking around for some inspiration to my new video, which I am doing on a well-known female character, and stumbled across your channel and I like it! Some really good content which is both unpretentious and informative!

[@Mekaneckpain]

I thought a Mary Sue referred to the author injecting him/herself into the story, and making themselves perfect.

[@raymathews1474]

I drew the line at yoda strength force powers right out of the can. And I take the deliberate deconstruction of the established heroes personally. I'll never buy an sw movie ticket again.

[@macsmith2013]

It'll be quite qa while before we see another SW movies in cinemas anyways, and after TroS, Rogue One and Solo I'm fine with that.

[@Traye76]

People constantly say She Hulk is a Mary Sue, when she's clearly a mess. She's definitely not a Mary Sue, just ridiculous.

[@starkdilemma4916]

Love your videos on this phenomenon... If u haven't seen E;Rs review of the star wars movies, I cannot recommend it enough

[@helRAEzzzer]

With how recently Thor Love and Thunder was put in the comic books, it feels like the comic was created with the intention of expanding the MCU, not Thor comics. I HATE the defense of, "It was in the comics," for that film. No one liked the comic either for the same reasons. The ONLY reason, "It was in the comics," can hold any weight as a counter to critics is when said comic actually has an extensive audience that the adaptation should be targeting. The only comic book fans who enjoyed the comic books are the ones who also condemn everything about comic books that make them so special to people who've followed them for decades until today. I don't mean these fans are all old enough to have grown up with them for all of these past decades, of course. I don't want my words here to be misconstrued. I mean, we've gone back and read the old comics, watched the old shows and movies, and have a comic book loving legacy in our families. Our love for comic books is a part of our very beings. So, yes, Thor Love and Thunder was in the comic books. However, that was hated, too. Most old school comic book fans are switching to media like "The Boys," "Invincible," "Saga," manga (IDK why. I left that scene after cosplayers started getting too political and started taking over american comics, fantasy, and sci-fi), and dusting off our classic super hero stuff. The comic book version of Thor Love and Thunder lacks any form of legacy and advertised itself as "female thor," so no one bought it. When die hard comic book fans are saying, "enough is enough," with the politics, you have more than crossed the line into horrible writing. Politics have ALWAYS been a driving force in popular american comic books, but they weren't written to just tell people how they should think. They told people to be kind. They told people to slow down and think about their actions. They taught people empathy. They brought people together form all kinds of different backgrounds. They made the outcasts of society feel wanted. Comic book fans, real comic book fans, are some of the most accepting people you will ever meet, but the newbies who are still wet behind the ears can't help but just project their own insecurities onto a medium that they want to be a part of. If you want to get into comics, you're welcome here, everyone who wants to be here WITH us is welcome here. Hostile take-overs, on the other hand, are not welcomed. We are grown up bullied kids; we don't take shit from anyone anymore, but we are still kind. Just don't mistake our kindness for tolerance of hateful propaganda and spoiled, grandiose behavior.

[@Mikethemerciless11]

Literature Devil described a Mary Sue/Marty Stu as a character of whom the plot bends to their will. Meaning, anything the Mary Sue needs to happen, happens. There is such a thing as good Mary Sues. What makes a Mary Sue "good" is that the story really isn't about her so much as she's a vehicle for the audience, or reader, to ride along. Case in point, arguably the greatest Marty Stu there is, Bond, James Bond, in either the novels or the movies, but especially the movies. The movie version of Bond I've nicknamed "James-El," a cousin of Kal-El, a.k.a. Superman. He can't fly on his own power, but, in every movie he's in, he's handsome, suave, and quite the charmer; he's quite knowledgeable, knowing any language and any bit of trivia the plot requires him to know; he is a firearms expert, and knows Judo; the gadgets he gets are always precisely what the plot needs him to have, and work effectively and efficiently when he needs them to; he drinks, but we never see him drunk; he always gets captured by the opposition, but this works in James-El's favor because it allows him not only to learn more about the main villain's plans, but allows him to thwart them; and if you're an attractive woman with a speaking role who's name isn't Moneypenny, you'll have a really good chance of sleeping with him and enjoying it. He goes to exotic locations, eats the best food, drinks the best booze, wears the best clothes, sleeps with hot women, goes on amazing adventures, and he's a government agent with a licence to kill. He's a good Maty Stu because, if you think about it, the stories aren't really about Bond. Bond, himself, has some characterization , but not anything worthy of Shakespeare, Hemmingway, or Dostoyevsky. He's just a vehicle for the audience to ride around with. And that's okay, because he wasn't meant to be anything more. The stories are pure escapism, mainly aimed at men, who want to be like Bond. The stories, especially in the movies, are very formulaic; it goes from Bond getting his mission, meeting with the main villain at some point, fighting his agents, getting closer to where the villain operates from, he meets with a lovely woman along the way (but she doesn't have to be connected to the case, as with Honey Ryder, from Dr. No) for him to save, he gets captured, he learns the whole scheme, thwarts it, fights the main villain's dragon and defeats him (only Jaws was one who survived Bond, as far as I know), kills or chases away the main villain, and saves the girl. The Daniel Craig Bond changes it up a bit, but I call that version of Bond "Jason Bond," as in Jason Bourne. Another case in point is Dorothy Gale from The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (the first story). Dorothy is a young farm girl, whisked away on an amazing adventure, where she learns she is stronger, smarter, and more courageous than she gives herself credit for being. The story isn't really about Dorothy so much as she's a vehicle for the reader to go along with. A Mary Sue becomes bad when she's so amazing, not so much because she's perfect, but because whatever she does, everything works out for her just right, even when they ought not to. The plot bends to her will; she might make mistakes, but those mistakes always end up being good because they help her defeat her opposition. She becomes boring, and unlikeable. Throw in masculine traits on a female character, and you end up with someone not only unlikeable, but insufferable.

[@luizpalombini3425]

Liked shared and subscribed!!!! Awesome video! Keep it coming!

[@nerdword07]

Awesome thank you!

[@thomasn3882]

Well then how does Lacey Chabert get away with playing the same exact Mary Sue character in a dozen or so Hallmark Channel movies? Same question for Candace Cameron. Talk about annoyingly perfect characters....

[@DSS712]

When writers create female characters this way, it's due to a fundamental misunderstanding of these two goals of feminism: 1. Women's flaws must not be viewed as less forgivable than men's flaws. 2. The power imbalance between men and women must be DISMANTLED. For some reason, these writers take literally the opposite interpretation of these two principles of feminism, and instead interpret them this way: 1. Women do not have flaws to begin with. 2. The power imbalance between men and women must be SWAPPED. What they are doing is literally backward feminism. It is causing so much damage to society and is making it MORE difficult for us to acheive gender equality.

[@NoNameIsBest89]

Excellent video. Subscribed and will be watching

[@joethompson297]

It’s amazing how many movie commentaries all say the same thing, tearing down male roles and every female part is a feminist. There is nothing wrong with strong roles for women, that’s a good thing, but it’s like the studios have inputted a generic movie into ChatGPT and it spits out the same generic movie that is rehashed over and over and over again

[@davidpothin5544]

Good story telling, yes! Love your channel good to hear it all from a woman's point of view, really helps me as a man to understand just what the hell is going on

[@TRtherocknroller]

Can male characters be Mary Sues? If so, is Captain America a Mary Sue?

[@riftshredder5438]

Let's not forget that Jane Foster being Lady Thor, Miles Morales being Black Spider-Man, Falcon being Black Captain America, and all the other race swaps and gender swaps of previous heroes, all happened in the comics after Disney bought Marvel, it killed the comic book industry and now they are trying to bring that all into the movies

[@steffikrueger7809]

Having Miles Morales as Spiderman isn't raceswap since he isn't Peter Parker, has his own origin story and earned his role as Spiderman. He isn't there to replace Peter Parker but to work together with him. (Atleast in the Movies)

[@riftshredder5438]

@steffikrueger7809 Miles Morales is a smart, nerdy, outcast who got his powers from a spider bite which also led to the death of his uncle, does any of that sound familiar?

[@gameslayer1061]

@@riftshredder5438what about all the other Spiderman then?

[@schwarzerritter5724]

There are no mary sue characters, only mary sue stories. In a mary sue story, the different layers of storytelling are in disagreement with each other. The movie is saying one thing about a character, but showing a different thing. For example, Star Wars: The Force Awakens introduces Rey as a character who has a few basic skills and who needs to learn how to become a hero, but she is also an expert at everything. Or take one of the most famous mary sues, Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: Next Generation. Whenever Wesley solves a problem, everyone suddenly becomes incapable; the show is saying Wesley is super smart, but is showing everyone else is dumb.

[@paulman34340]

It's funny you bring those two up as examples! Seeing how in the Sequel Trilogy, everyone is falling over backwards to kiss Rey's feet (where out of Universe, the Fans view of her is "the exact OPPOSITE of that!"), but in ST:TNG everyone both In AND OUT out of universe HATES Wesley to the point a Catch Phrase "Shut Up Wesley" was born 😆 Frankly speaking I guess in Wesley case, even the writers were done with him, but something kept them from removing him completely so they had to do with "S.U.W." (Shut Up Wesley) instead! (It's akin to a Dungeon Master in D&D who decides to get rid of a Player Character in the most humiliating fashion if the Player themselves have say "been kicked cause they were EXACTLY like Wesley" so to "apologize" to the other players for having to deal with the asshole player. They create the most humiliating clownish way for them to be removed) While everyone on the writing staff was DETERMINED to make you love Rey! But your right with it being less Mary Sue characters and more Mary Sue Storylines! I've seen and (even made myself for fun LOL) ALOT of Fix Its to the Sequel Trilogy that REALLY did a better job then the Original Writers by writing for example, a Rey that ISN'T a mary sue! Hell one I read was interesting cause everytime Rey was "a character" she was likable, while everytime she "did the things she did in Canon AKA the Mary Sue shit" it backfires on her in the most realistic fashion and she chastised for it (causing CHARACTER GROWTH as well!) like the scene mentioned of her fixing and flying the Falcon better then Han! (Hell that "escape" was made VERY clear that it was the force and NOT her driving, not the force ENHANCING her skills because Plot says so! But even the force isn't an expert at FLYING A SHIP so she and Finn almost DIE ALOT in that escape scene and Finn chastising her when he misses shots he might have made with the Turrets for her bad driving! Fun part was it was treated as a Non-Story Canon WHAT IF that leads to them CRASHING AND DYING! Basically "what if Poe really disappeared for the entirety of the plot from when he and Finn first crashed to meeting again at the Resistance Base with no explanation! Instead Poe is with them and HE is the one to fly the Falcon! Makes sense as HE'S THE EXPERT PILOT of the trio, and the writer of that story even LAMPSHADED how "mysterious" it looked in the scripted when Darth Abrams made Poe disappear like that when he knew a "flying escape" scene was coming up! Almost like he wanted to show how "GREAT" Rey was and knew people would question "what was the point when the Expert Pilot" was with them! And even then he has trouble since this is a guy good at flying SMALLER Ships like X-Wings and Tie Fighters, not big freighters like the Falcon. Don't ask where you can find the story if you want to ask, I've been looking for it myself for the longest time, read it on Archive of our Own around when the Last Jedi first "Stank up the Theaters" and the "undeserved hype for Force Awaken" that blinded many INCLUDING MYSELF AND MY BABY BROTHER who saw it died down and as Val Kilmer Batman told Jim Carrey Riddler "It just raises too many questions" me and baby brother had fun QUESTIONING certain scenes of Force Awaken including Poe disappearing then reappearing, the Falcon scene, and MANY MORE!) Suffice to say the Sequel Trilogy NEVER should have been WIELDED into the Skywalker Saga of Six! It should have taken place LONG after the Luke Trilogy. But Force Awakens Writing was a Prelude to what to expect, which was the lazy writing HEAVILY focused on nostalgia that it INSPIRED Matt Stone and Trey Parker to create the "Member Berries" on South Park MOCKING how these's bad/talentless directors and writers have fallen to PLAYING at people's "memories of things they liked" to get attention that once you take off the Nostalgia Goggles. You realize "there's no meat on the bone!" it's empty and shallow and you wonder "did you gain ANYTHING from consuming!" since it HAD the taste/nostalgia you wanted, even the Smell/feeling....but you don't feel "fulfilled/not was gained or memorable"

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@paulman34340 It should be noted that "Shut up, Wesley!" is actually a mary sue moment in context. Wesley was told to shut up, because he was the only one who noticed Date has been replaced by his evil brother (season 1 was wild). Nobody noticed it was obviously a different person, not even Tasha, who earlier voiced concerns about Data's loyalty with his brother around. Wesley needs to be the one who notices, so everybody else suddenly becomes stupid. What truly defines a mary sue, and what simultaneously makes them so irritating, is that mary sue stories make the other characters look bad to make the mary sue look good by comparison.

[@paulman34340]

@@schwarzerritter5724 Hmm interesting the more you know I suppose but good to know.

[@qtindavis433]

you are one of my favorite reviewers. please watch no one will save you

[@OneClassicalLass]

Like even jesus wasn't a gary stu, sure he's morally righteouyand literally GOD in the flesh, but he was seen as unattractive by many, no one even took him seriously aside from a few people, only 12 people were his closest followers. He was hated by many, and was killed out of that hatred... Mary sues are loved by all, are the most beautiful, and can't be held down or by anyone.... I don't see how that is interesting storytelling...

[@arsonalx1918]

Great content, thanks.

[@dustinsensenig9798]

Jane Foster being a new Thor was just one of many things wrong with that movie

[@macsmith2013]

Taika Waititi is what's wrong with the movie. And I say that as someone who loves both Thor Ragnarök and What we do in the shadows.

[@theguyfromsaturn]

@@macsmith2013 The worst thing is that clip of Taika Waititi roasting the CGI. Considering that he's the director, that's entirely on his plate. The VFX professionals are generally very competent at what they do, but you can't complete a vision that keeps changing and without the time to do things right because the people who call the shots are incompetent. That clip was so disgusting I lost all respect for the man.

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

You have gained a sub. Cheers!

[@docbailey3265]

I miss Mrs. Emma Peal. Now THAT was a heroine!

[@storyrewrites]

Guy-ladriel is not a Mary Sue. She is bad at diplomacy, she is hot-headed, she is condescending, she lacks self-awareness and empathy. And she lacks integrity for not telling others about Sauron. She's more of a Karen Sue.

[@ZoolGatekeeper]

Just to even up the score, I wanna talk about the 1987 movie "The Princess Bride" movie, (which I LOVE), but has the Mary Sue OR in this case the Gary Stu problem. We are told that Inigo Montoya (Mandy Patinkin) is a sword fighter and has been practicing for a REALLY long time to take revenge on his father AND was a real talent from the start... THEN along comes Cary Elwes and defeats him RIGHT AWAY... So, is Montoya a great sword fighter? Now I'm confused.. As much as I love this movie, you don't construct the story like that. Cause now.. Well Cary Elwes is Superman ( I guess) and I'm glad that a Tornado ate him up in Twister (sry for the spoiler, but I'm mad enough to spoil it for you.)

[@hauntedhose]

I would like to see a counterpart to this video about how anime does strong/sexy female characters the right way 😍 Subbed 👍

[@morriganmhor5078]

Comparing older fairytale heroines with modern Mary Sues is not fair in my opinion as those older "variants" all live under bad conditions and their characters are very different from those self-imposing professionally "strong female" freaks you are speaking about for 90% of your piece. However, thumb up to every woman that doesn´t get into that wonderful femnazi train!

[@elliegardner1810]

Their are good Mary sues in anime and the authors over their care about the story

[@AJadedLizard]

I don't think people are quite ready to have this conversation yet, but the *worst* example of a Mary Sue in the MCU is Steve Rogers. He is ever selfish, ever self righteous, and the world literally bends itself around him. It wasn't great in his first solo film or the Avengers but it got worse after the Russos started writing him. Cap was willing to let thousands of people die rather than stop his former best friend, disbanded SHIELD largely because he didn't like Nick Fury, lied to his teammates about Bucky while being completely willing to use Tony Stark's money to fix him, covered for Wanda's inexperience and arrogance by insisting a grown woman wasn't capable of understanding the consequences of her actions, refused to answer to anyone else when his own leadership led to the deaths of several dozen civilians (a choice which caused the Avengers to separate and ultimately led to the Snap), and ultimately abandoned his team (and girlfriend) to be with a woman he knew briefly for about eight months while making no efforts to avert any of the tragedies that would occur after he went back in time, and in spite of *all* that, he's still somehow "kingly" and worthy of wielding Mjolnir. About the only thing the other Sues have on Steve is that he at least doesn't spend a bunch of his screentime lecturing his audience.

[@benedictjohnson2176]

Why are you even analysing Disney movies, they’re not even real movies But I completely agree with all your reasons for disliking the lazy character writing

[@benjaminbinaziz3424]

Where is Carol Danvers? There is no mary sue list without captain marvel...

[@Traye76]

Carol Danvers may be overpowered, but she spent decades training and working with the Kree. She didn't just learn stuff overnight. Plus near invulnerability makes training unnecessary. She's like a Marvel Superman.

[@benjaminbinaziz3424]

@@Traye76 The MCU version of Carol danvers/brie larson is the definition of Mary sue. All started with her in MCU. She-hulk, Echo, Ironheart, Kassey Lang are just latest addition to that list.

[@charlescane8723]

THE ERA WHEN WESTERN WOMEN WILL GO DOWN IN INFAMY 😡

[@steffikrueger7809]

I agree with most what you are saying but you kind of make it sound like a character is a Mary Sue just by being good-hearted which would include all Disney princesses which is not the case.

[@relaxingnature2617]

Kathleen Kennedy must go..$zero until she is out..free viewings only

[@mitchellalexander9162]

Here: I'm just going to Copy Paste this Comment I made about Mary Sue's Once because it's relevant here: The Internet in its infancy and its very Younger Years already had its time in dealing with 'The Mary Sue' Ur Examples include: 'My Immortal' as the Legendary Terrible Mary Sue fic. And an LOTR one made around the time that just had some chick in a love...er...shape with Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir (I think) and Gandalf and she just 'has Gandalf beat Sauron offscreen despite the massive difference in power between the two of them canonically. And there have already been Great Mary Sue Deconstructions namely in 'Diamond in the Rough.' This wave of Mary Sue where ignorant stupid 3rd and 4th Wave feminists have elevated these Modern Mary Sues as 'infallible Christ Figures and messiahs' that all woman should strive to be that intersects with political dimensions and Social Justice being the only thing keeping them going is a new evolution to 'The Mary Sue' that initially was thought to be vanquished and 'dissected already' and understood to be bad storytelling. But there's one thing that every Mary Sue for all of their Perfection cannot defeat: Apathy. For it is Death,

[@JosephOliver-kh9in]

I hate Mary Sues

[@Italonino]

The Force is fascist and Star Wars has always been a crap franchise, it went downhill steep after The Empire Strikes Back. As such Rey is an ideal of a perpetual civil war with cardboard aims. If they are going to do another trilogy Rey should become The One Above All.

[@nosfonader8792]

Men are the only ones who are, seemingly, allowed to be all mighty. Nobody whine about Steve Rodgers, John Wick, Jack Reacher, Ethan Hunt, Jason Bourne, James Bond, Superman, or Sherlock Holmes. Women who ever shows any of the same quality gets labeled Mary Sue. Women's beauty is always a checkmark against them, never a man's handsome levels. Men can easily get away with Stuness. How to fix Mary Sue? Make her a damsel in destress who needs saving and is borderline talentless. Make her Plain Jane and not at all a head turner. Keep her out of combat and just make her the support, emotional at most. There problem solved

[@jamesmary8953]

Dude, you don't seem to get it, and that's why you're not even worth having a discussion with. Use your head more. XD

[@khizeryusufzai2185]

Right because characters like Princess Leia and Wonder Woman are such Mary Sues. Not like they haven’t spent years training for battle. Not like Rey who thought herself the Jedi mind trick without fully knowing what it was and beat the experienced Kylo Ren or She Hulk who has “suffered more” then Hulk who was by the way abused as a child and spent 10 years trying to control his anger while She Hulk is suddenly oppressed for being a woman.

[@nosfonader8792]

@@khizeryusufzai2185 My favorites are Olivia Benson (Law and Order), Bayonetta (Bayonetta), Samus (Metroid), Mantis (Guardians of the Galaxy), Integra Hellsing (Hellsing), Motoko Kusanagi (Ghost in the Shell), and Raven (Teen Titans) I was mainly saying people are oh so quick to brand women characters these days as Sues and not bat an eyelash when men do it (Jack Reacher, Jack Ryan, for instance)

[@khizeryusufzai2185]

@@nosfonader8792 exactly!

[@johnstovall7503]

All those characters have flaws which come out in their stories, charcter arcs, and most worked very hard to get thier skills and abilities

[@vicount3944]

boo hoo, woman in movie makes me mad lol

[@jamesmary8953]

Clowns like you, man. XD

[@sovobor7681]

I think the real problem with Mary Sue is Mary Sue is sketched out character in wrong story. Hero can be perfect and story likeable, but story has to test hero´s truths, opinions, skills ect.. And that is problem with Mary Sue characters. They are at journeys although they should be tested.

[@patrickmusson4571]

Rey is Kathy Kennedy's 'Self Insert.' That is who she had to be The Bestest Evaaaaaar!!

[@mattiOTX]

A Mary Sue by current definitions is a character that has no flaws or struggles other than external ones and breaks the world they exist in. Ray is an example of a Mary Sue as she is able to fix the ship the very first time she had ever been on it. Through very little lightsaber training was able to match kylo who actually was trained since he was young. And she has control over the force without any training. She has knowledge and skills that any other character would need to spend hundreds of hours working on. Many of the princess stories don't actually fit the mold. While they sometimes face only face external struggles they don't break the world they are in.

[@bethmbam4848]

As a strong woman, you don’t emasculate men

[@Immopimmo]

These characters can't have flaws because they're paragons meant to represent a whole segment of society. Giving a female character flaws? Whaddya mean, are you calling all women flawed!? There's no place for individuals, only the collective.

[@jeffreysommer3292]

"The Mighty Thor" is right up there with "Calvin the Bold," for people who read the comics...

[@cityman2312]

I hereby dub him mud!

[@rakeshmalik5385]

Hollywood has some serious problems with characters... it likes to make the heroes the big dumb brutes while the brains of the operation wimpy, unlikable geeks. Meanwhile, the "strong female heroes" are always cookie cutter good-at-everything ridiculous and completely pointless because they have neither charisma nor character arcs. I'm working on getting a couple of scripts into production with female heroes, but I'm trying to make them more like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Conner -- intelligent women who face adversity head on not because they are unafraid, but because they're like Ellen Ripley -- who went back for the cat even while trying to escape from an implacable and nigh unstoppable genetically engineered alien killing machine that was bigger, stronger, and tougher than she. THAT is what makes a hero a hero: taking on an obstacle even when you know full well that you might not succeed.

[@KilgoreTrout-w3n]

What I dislike about the new "Strong Woman" Mary Sue in the recent years is that they take on the worst stereotypes of men. I wouldn't put up with a man that acted like that, why would I want to see it in a woman.

[@Patterner]

good video! "eat my hammer" was clearly written by someone who has never seen "Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog"

[@jennifercejpek1199]

Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty are not Mary Sues!

[@davcar23]

In contrast Arya Stark, where she had training to be the boss she is, and she did not take over the roll of an established male character but was a character herself.

[@theguyfromsaturn]

Although from what I hear, the TV show screwed the pooch big time (I stopped watching when I saw her arriving at Bravos, and behaving like a spoiled brat from the start... that's not the Arya of the books). Training to be a assassin in no way makes one an expert "fighter" much less a fighter with superpowers as it appears she is depicted there. The faceless men are supposed to work behind the scene, kill people without being noticed, not single handedly take on superior foes in open combat. It's just par for the course for Hollywood's understanding of the skills required for various jobs though. It's pretty sad.

[@davcar23]

@@theguyfromsaturn Whatever, but she did get training, right? She wasn't a badass just because "women" she got training from her dance instructor and the faceless men. And she got her ass kicked more than once.

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

Kreia… definitive character. She may be a little insane, but she is among the list of those who deserve an *Imagi Studios* adaptation.

[@eppsislike]

Nice vid. Subbed.

[@nigelgreen9369]

I like to think what we see is solely in the minds of the Mary Sue and they are all suffering delusions brought on the by the Dunning-Kruger effect. Sadly this is shared by the filmmakers - I'm looking at you Taika

[@kingbeauregard]

Nah, that's not a good description of the Mary Sue. Mostly you've described a paragon, which can be boring, but is something else. A Mary Sue is a character who is not in service to the plot; rather, the plot is in service to the character. By that I mean the story logic bends in the presence of a Mary Sue: villains are unaccountably respectful, competent allies turn uncharacteristically incompetent and are in need of rescue by the Mary Sue; the Mary Sue generally avoids doom in ways that feel less like luck and more like the hand of the author. Basically, if the audience feels the story is handling one character by a different (generally more favorable) set of rules, they probably sense a Mary Sue. Exceptional competence isn't a very reliable indicator of a Mary Sue though; most protagonists are exceptionally competent, or else someone else could complete the task that the protagonist has set out on. In fact, every single Chosen One is uniquely capable for their task, by definition; but that doesn't make them all Mary Sues.

[@alexhenderson1312]

Also Kara Starbutch Thrace ('Reimagined' BSG) and Alice (Resident Evil) as well - the forerunners to the others!

[@derneuedunkleavataryang1731]

In my Opinion is Rey the Cade Skywalker of her Age. Not the Hero that the galaxy deserves but on that they needs. P.S.: The Force make everyone who know how to use it a mary sue.

[@ZorusSerif]

We also had captain mavel & the actoress behind her being a terrible person there's a deleted scene where she pretty much beats up a guy for just existing near her & rey's actoress is the same way

[@b_g_c3281]

_... This video _*_and_*_ channel are _*_HORRENDOUSLY UNDERRATED_*_ ..._

[@currentofthesnake8486]

I'm just wondering what a Guyladriel or another Mary Sue would do against my boy Azatoth.

[@twin569]

I think it's a great comment on the current beliefs about how to be a modern woman. We expect that we can just be great at anything with little to no work. Because we never see the hard work behind the scenes of those we admire. We do hear about the 8 years of work hard day after day to become a successful businesswoman. Women and maybe men too seem to expect a woman to be everything and have their life together, and of course we must also be good-looking. Perhaps if, as a society, we focused on the process not the end result we may have less Mary Sue stories .

[@tioraytm]

Technically they are not Mary Sue's.. You should have named this video Rise of the Dumpster Fires 🔥 😅

[@draahpsquad3592]

This channel deserves more subs

[@MartynStanleyAuthor]

Yeah, I never saw Mighty Thor, but Rey from Star Wars could have been a great character. You might not even have had to change the substance for it to work. Episode 7, have Rey go through the same adventure on Jakoo as before, but when she flies the falcon it's a complete sugar-show, with her struggling to get it off the ground, crashing it slightly and getting shot a lot. Finn takes over because he can actually fly. He tries to teach her a bit about piloting. They have similar adventures, but less fighty, fighty, more sneaking around and whenever Rey gets into a scrape she barely holds her own and ends up having to be rescued. At SOME point, she shows some innate force ability, then later on - near the climax she does the same. Han teaches her to fly the falcon a bit more. Episode 8, she gets to Jakoo, and Luke throws his sabre over his shoulder, she scolds him for it and goes and gets it, then gives him some speech about saving the galaxy and what not and it's her main job to get him to return to the rebellion with her. He flat refuses, going on about how jaded he is with the whole 'Jedi Thing' but he agrees to train her. He then takes on a Yoda-ish role, without the suckling off a strange alien weirdness, but with a little bit of misery and begrudgingness. Like he's training her to get her to leave? Then he notices she starts to pick things up, she does something she shouldn't be able to do at that level. She struggles to control her powers and he senses a darkness and gets fearful of training her further. She then 'let's the hate flow a bit' and demonstrates she can summon force-lightning and storms off yelling that she's learned all she can from him. Luke suddenly fears what he's unleashed upon the galaxy and begs her to let him teach her some more. Que - throw back to Yoda and Obi Wan's teachings. Luke participates in the light-sabre battle as a force-projecction as usual but this time he collapses from exaustion but doesn't die. Meanwhile Rey gets more tempted by the power of the darkside and starts to hear Palpatine whispering to her or something. At the same time Kylo ends up seeing what he's turned into and not wanting to be part of it. Snoke gets killed the same way. During the lightsabre battle between Kylo and Luke's force projection, Luke convinces him to return to the lightside. Rey somehow ends up taking over from Snoke as the leader of the first order. Episode 9: Rey gets the Sith Holocron to Exocron, she goes there and get's a hologram message from Palpatine who'd predicted his death and tried to prevent it but taken measures because he was aware he'd likely fail. In the message he worms on about how weak Darth Vader was. It turns out Snoke WAS a failed force-sensitive clone Palpatine had created. Rey is somehow given the chance to merge spirit with Palpatine to become more powerful. She agrees to it and becames like the Darth Rey vision she had on the ship. Luke and Kylo go off to destroy the first order. They end up fighting Rey at the same time, but Rey is too powerful and overcomes them. Just as Darth Rey is about to deliver a coup de grace to a badly injured Luke, and Kylo is wounded too - Luke realises to defeat Palpatine and Darth Rey, what to do. He force projects into Rey's mind and fights the duel we'd been waiting decades for, a Jedi Master Luke Skywalker vs the ultimate dark lord of sith Darth Sidiuos/Emperor Palpatine. The duel is epic and as it's fought in the mind, it takes place in all the epic duel spaces from the series from Episode 1, so it starts in Obi wan and Qi Gon vs Maul arena, then it's Yoda vs Dooku on Kamino arena, then Obi wan and anakin vs Dooku arena, then Yoda vs Sidious in the Senate arena, then Windu vs Palpatine in the chancellors offices arena, then Vader vs obi in DS1 arena, then Vader vs Luke on Bespin Arena, then The Death Star 2, Vader vs Luke arena. At the end Palpatine is winning, but as he delivers the fatal blow, the ghost of Obi wan appears and blocks the blow. As they duel, Luke climbs to his feet and the ghost of Yoda appears. The three of them overpower Palpatine. Once he's destroyed it goes back to the real world and Rey is lightside again. She's done horrible stuff as leader of the first order but wants to atone. The place is collapsing, so she uses the force to give Kylo and Luke time to escape. Luke however, refuses, passes Rey his lightsabre and takes over. [Que classic music] Rey and Kylo flee Exocron and the camera cuts to Luke falling into a pile of robes ala obiwan in New Hope, then Rey and Kylo fly off and join the space battle with the new order, Rey has now learned to pilot starships. She's supposed to be launching a torpedo at a weakspot on the New Order Lead ship - the relbellions last one. However her ship is hit and she loses her targetting computer. She wants the rebellion to flee, but Luke's voice appears ala Obi wan and says, 'Use the Force Rey' so she uses the force to hit the target. Then, if you wanted to have a sequel-sequel trilogy it's about Rey and Kylo building a new Jedi order in a galaxy that doesn't trust Jedi, then in episode 11 some new power would rise and episode 12 would be about them defeating it. That's more like how I'd have written it anyway.

[@pduidesign]

…and on top of everything you said, Chris Hemsworth spent a year bulking up for the last Thor movie and meanwhile the post production crew CGId Natalie Portman’s muscles. Awkward.

[@Traye76]

Respectfully disagree, photos of her during this time show her pretty jacked.

[@pduidesign]

@@Traye76 its well known that they CGId her arm muscles.

[@brandonscott5544]

GREAT NERDWORLD VIDEO MARY SUE PROBLEM