The role of shame in surviving narcissistic abuse

[@VenusinCalico]

Jay, when you spoke about how "shame helps the child prevent themselves from protesting in a way that would make the parent hurt or reject the child in a more devastating way" - it floored me. I remember how I used to protest to my parent when I was very young (and less and less as I got older), and how much pain it caused (only more trouble, more projection, more confusion, more personal attacks on my character or into my motivations). Shame taught me to keep my mouth shut. As an adult, I've felt frustrated at my younger self for being so deeply & easily ashamed, instead of fighting back (even internally, in my own mind). The only way I got thru childhood was gaslighting myself, taking the shame with the tiniest bit of silent indignation. This helps me understand why. It's so obvious yet I've never put words to it. Thank you. You have a gift for picking apart the nuances of these family dynamics, and it's much appreciated.

[@pavla2055]

I can remember seeing an actually look of satisfaction or glee when my parents thought they had unloaded their shame onto me - their scapegoat . They actually acted as if they were now completely guilt free of anything . My mother told a story to me a couple of times of her 'only' transgression in life at 6 yrs old which was atoned for and had lived a sin free life since. - the inference was inescapable to a kid . Dumping on me and then later screaming 'WHAT"S WRONG WITH YOU ?" was a favourite pastime of theirs . I hope they're enjoying the heat since they died .

[@RippleDrop.]

My mother neglected and abused us as well. BADLY. Few years ago got an email from her. "I am so happy I never had anything wrong with my head." All us kids have bad trauma and mental health problems because she made sure we were terrified all the time. The satisfied smirk on her face after she beat my brother or scared the hell out of me. She is alive occupying her own hell loneliness and unable to walk. Now she wants our pity why us kids are so selfish not to be interested in her. 🤢

[@thaga1594]

Ca assa Sassa saas

[@suzannebunbury2961]

I’ve always been puzzled and haunted by the eerie fact that when my parents made and saw me suffer that they chortled and expressed pleasure. It made them feel good. I don’t even know what to say about that.

[@RippleDrop.]

@@suzannebunbury2961 Very - VERY - badly disconnected from their soul - people.

[@christar9527]

My parents once looked at me in a very STRANGE way and said “She’s the devil!” and they were grinning like the demons that they really were. I hope to God that they’re burning in hell where they belong now with their father of lies....Satan.

[@yerin2272]

I've never heard of such analysis of the strength of the survivors. Very insightful and helpful. Thank you, Jay

[@jennifermcphee5879]

In a healthier society, this guy would be Dr. Phil instead of Dr. Phil

[@TheBlackSheepDiaries]

Ole Phil always gave me the creeps, always thought of him as a more civilized J. Springer. But all of my crazy narco family unit always loved the guy, go figure.

[@beedaffy]

Absolutely agree. The only other psychologist with this level of clarity and comprehension is Dr. Abdul Saad of Vital Mind Psychology (on youtube).

[@jennifermcphee5879]

@@beedaffy Will check him out on You Tube!

[@daisyd8790]

You nailed that !!! If only...

[@s.b.d.manager1272]

What a legendary comment

[@idontknow-lc8bz]

Recently i accomplished a DREAM of mine, finally am making enough money to live alone in my dream apartment after years of struggling through hoards of narcissists and going no contact with my family. And the very week i moved in, i went into the most debilitating state.. it wasn't depression really, but i just totally froze up and had no idea what i was feeling and had no interest in doing anything. I would feel weakened in even turning on the TV, questioning everything, even deciding what to eat was a complicated task. I realized that I didn't know how to feel proud of myself and instead felt all this shame for finally having what i wanted. It really does feel like floating in space! So difficult to put words to.. thank you so much for this series!!

[@stanleydrive740]

Yes! I know. I finally can understand this need to just be alone & hide.

[@idontknow-lc8bz]

@@stanleydrive740 reading this comment a year later- it gets better. i am in contact with my family again(except the narcissist) and im learning to depend on others more. solitude can be helpful but it can turn to isolation very quick

[@dark7angel456]

I have a lot of Shame whenever I think of what I want or even do what I want and even get what I want I feel a lot of guilt

[@anonymousprivate6814]

I am autistic and suffer with depression/anxiety and also suffered abuse and neglect as a child, particularly with my mother. This video is excellent and helped me understand that I'm the strong one carrying the projected worthlessness from my narcisistic mother.

[@anonymousprivate6814]

@@pipilotti333 Yes, thank you for your kind words. I love to be out in nature, especially the forest and I love birds. :)

[@caobranch]

OMG 😳 I'm so sorry. Blessings and love ❤️

[@kaystephens2672]

It's quite a load to carry. Watch Seize the Day with Robin Williams. A 1986 movie. It's how we grew up and depicts how dangerous these people are. One day at a time.

[@samf.s.7731]

Yeah, I think that the autism not only made them abusive, but it encouraged everyone else to be abusive towards me. They bad mouthed me a lot, over nothing! It's really on me though this time around, I am an adult and I went to therapy. I should have known better than to believe them again. They were never happy with me, ever. I guess I wasn't as "love bombed" as most other narcissistic victims because there was no where for me to escape, but I've been love bombed for the past year or so, and now I made the mistake of asking for help with something I care about, and yet again just like ye ole times I'm not just getting blueballed, I am made to look like I'm careless, sloppy, unprofessional, all of these terrible things which I am not .. but that's the price I am paying for depending on them, they probably want me to beg or something for me to get what I *need* I have been to therapy long enough to know that that's exactly the opposite of what I should do.

[@2.A963]

In dysfunctional families ,Children become the emotional container of the parent .

[@lauriedmills7581]

I don't know what it is that you are doing differently to other professionals I've sought help from, but somehow the content & way you explain things just makes things so, um, clear. I realise you're focusing mainly upon the family community but I find your concise explanations versatile enough to apply to other community groups in society too eg the workplace, scientific & religious groups etc. For me your teaching is like the lines in a dot-to-dot picture - I've had the dots for a fair while but how they connect to form a picture, albeit a complex one in many ways, was challenging. Thank you, again. Costing me a fortune in tissues!

[@HabitualLover]

😭🤧a fortune in tissues. Aww. That landed deeply with me, too.

[@fmoys1408]

Man you’re spot on!! I grew up as the scapegoat in a narcissistic family. I can relate to so much off what you talk about. Toxic shame is so utterly crippling, I’ve lost jobs and potential friendships. I’ve found it ties in with my imposter syndrome too as well. Wish I could find a therapist that understands this area as well as you. Thanks for taking the time to make these vids. I really appreciate it.

[@TheDenizsaribas]

This video made me replay all the shame I felt when my mom yelled at me or hit me when I was a child and a teenager. I can feel this shame even now when I remember those days. Neither my dad nor mom loved me. They weren't capable of loving. I know it now, but I didn't know it when I was a child. If even my parents didn't love me then who would so? I used to think this way. I survived and I found a man who truely loved me and my son truely loves me. My childhood was stolen. I was raised up by the parents who never were supposed to marry and have children in the first place. But I was born and raised up by this parents who are incapable of parenting, I was scapegoated all the days I spent in the hell that is called "home" and now I am far away from this hell. I am still trying to heal myself and be a better person than these horrible parents.

[@MsKiddah]

Same story here. I empathise.. *hugs* It's particularly sad when both parents are narcissists. My mom was covert and dad overt. I'm now no contact with either, and happier for it. Healing is so so hard.

[@TheDenizsaribas]

@@MsKiddah I empathise too. My mom was covert and my dad was malignant. No contact is the best option for sure, but I only could manage minimum contact. I could minimize the contact by living in a different city and just phone calls. Hugs...

[@KasiaZosia04723]

I can relate sooo much! I’m proud of you... and me!🥰

[@irenahabe2855]

Same here, dear. 🤗

[@irenahabe2855]

​ Same here. Mum covert, dad overt, no empathy still. Mindboggling for a child of any age.

[@user-zy8gk2nn7d]

I think it is time for my "parent" to carry his own shame simply by contstantly being recjected by me. In my opinion they can handle it now :)))))))

[@HabitualLover]

Yeah 📢!!

[@christar9527]

😄He He.....

[@powpunkonwhiskey6377]

My mum (NPD) is full of shame and this emotion drives her life. We're going through a discard phase ATM, I'm being discluded from family news and I'm politely declining family gatherings, so it's working out both ways. I still speak to her every fortnight whilst I wait for the final discard in the form of silent treatment. Anyhoo a few months back we were talking about something, I can't remember what or who but my response was "so-and-so doesn't have to put up with that, that's not her fault nor her shame to wear" There was a really weird response from NPD mother, like an "ooh" type noise and then silence. I realised the penny dropped and she recognised I wasn't going to be held accountable for the shame she felt nor was I prepared to feel ashamed because of other people actions because I recognised shame isn't a cloak I'm prepared to don. Well now I'm being totally pushed out and this suits me just fine. I welcome it in fact. Her next rage and silent treatment for me is brewing, but the next round will be my last. I'm not even sorry about losing my father anymore, he's an enabler who should have been strong to help his kids but he didn't and my GC sibling is like our mothers mini-me, so I can't see her every having a decent outlook on anything, I think she's too far gone. I'm being smeared to the rest of the wider family and their friends but I really couldn't care less anymore. She can take back her cape of shame, it doesn't fit me nor is it my colour.

[@renzlo9747]

How cam ypu integrate this feeling? I know intelectually u shouldnt feel ashames but i cannot get rid of this feeling

[@ereikiki]

I can't explain how validating it is to hear these things. I'm 43 and until a week ago I didn't realise JUST how badly I was treated or how distorted my perspective has been... I've been so lonely, disconnected, and empty. ... and searching for why and continuously coming up empty-handed, with no answer... so it must just be that I'm bad. Deep down I think I always knew that I was filling some role but could never recognise that even if it really was about me, as a person, it was about my good qualities.

[@daisyd8790]

I have always felt shame, as long as I can remember. I never questioned why~I didn't know any differently. Finally, at 56, after the Abuse of a Narcissist, I figured out that my late Mother was a Covert Narcissist. Or she was super high on the Narc trait scale. This explains so much about my life and why I am who I am. It is never too late. I am going to find ME now. Thanks for the video's !!!

[@Triadistic]

I also found out my mom being a covert narc after she died. I felt shame about talking about this subject. As a teen I was in a mental hospital and when they asked me about my parents I lied and said they were fine parents. I tried running from home when I was younger. There was also physical abuse and lots of rage thats a blessing in a way cause that way I know her psychological abuse was real! With the help of video's of Jay and others I can recover what actually happened. After finishing school I left as fast as I could and only came back once a year with Christmas. It took more than 30 years to figure out my mom was a covert narc and my enabling father probably slightly autistic. I did not know what was going on but I knew I had to get away from them! I consumed many psychedelics that helped me to individuate and form a self which i felt was lacking at the time. Now I am trying to accept what happened and feel the pain instead of repressing it.

[@robynlayne1]

Thank you for posting this. I just came across it and for once I feel a little less alone. I look forward to future videos. I just experienced the worst losses of my life, one after another, and I’m just trying to get back up. It seems everyone else is light years ahead of me, I just learned I was disinherited and I feel like I was hit by a bus.

[@stanleydrive740]

For the 1st time in 70 years I understand my need to just be alone & unseen, while mourning a life that never got to be. Finally I understand. Thank you dear Jay.

[@genxfree]

God bless you for what you have endured.

[@belovedchild9812]

Hi Jay. I spent the last 2 weeks listening to Healing Shame by Sheila Rubin and Bret Lyon that you recommended. Thank you! It was super helpful. Excavating these emotions is so like the overused analogy of peeling an onion. I went from experiencing intense emotions as flashbacks 3 years ago. I went deeper and recognized the same emotions as abandonment depression. Then I went deeper and found the shame. 🙏

[@caobranch]

Finally. A narcissistic abuse channel by someone actually educated in the subject. With a professional and unique perspective. And a brain. Nice 🙂

[@HabitualLover]

:( Children’s lack of experience makes them foreign to having any reason to feel worthless- which abusers aren’t smart enough to see as plain innocence, not as “strength” and a threat. How sad because it’s so dumb. I’m trying to say, it’s a cop out to put burdens onto a child anyway, as an adult. It boggles the mind why anyone would.

[@mores5780]

This video is absolutely spot on. It is an astounding idea that my lifelong shame represents strength in endurance.

[@LisaSmith-yb2uz]

Aha! 🙌✨😎 you’ve spotted my invisible forcefield of survival!! ☺️❣️

[@taniabluebell3099]

"A sudden break in connection with another person". No wonder I have always been trying to restore or heal this break in connection. I did not know my mom purposefully did this to transfer her own shame onto me. This was a regular dose of being mostly covert shame and I was left feeling worthless chasing my mom into my 30s trying to finally make that breakthrough, or connection. A link my mom purposefully broke when I was a child. In my 20s I had the same experience with my sister who is two years older. Prior to this we were friends. In my mid 20s I leaned on my sister for a dilemma I had and wanted her support. My sister did nothing to help me but instead told my mom and then my mom told my dad. I was embarrassed and had this artificial scarlet letter for something I had never done but now was being lalebed as the other woman. My dilemma which I never acted on was blurred lines with a guy friend and I wanted my sister's advice since he was coming onto me and I didn't know what to do. So I reluctantly went to my sister despite a few years of her micro betrayals at that point. In my early 30s after I had learned about narcissism and my sister regularly discarding me and giving me the silent treatment by this stage. Yet to keep up family appearances I was still invited to my sister's graduation from graduate school. I had stayed a couple days longer when visiting my sister in her city. I had hoped to forge or renew our relationship by having one on one time. From the moment I landed she was terrible to me. She would purposefully bad mouth me to my brothers and make sure I saw and heard. I felt terrible that I allowed myself to be in this situation again. She is very strict with alcohol and despite my brothers both ordering beer at dinner my sister took issue with me ordering wine despite it being my birthday weekend. The next day at brunch she made an assertion that I had a drinking problem and her only evidence was the 5 ounce glass of white wine I ordered at dinner. I demanded she take this back since it always led to a smear campaign and she would involve my mom. The accusation would then become the narrative and my mom and sister would spend years using whatever accusation they could throw at me as proof that I was bad or a loser. I usually gave in but I had learned about narcissism and I demanded my sister apologize. She refused. The next day she was driving me to the airport and wanted to take me to breakfast. I told her I would only go if she apologized. She refused. So we got in a fight on the way to the airport. She doubled down. I then listed the example of when I was 25, when she betrayed me and told my secret to my parents. I don't her she did nothing to help me, only betray me. Then she said "we did help you!". I asked "how?". My sister screamed "we shamed you, we shamed you!". That said it all.

[@dark7angel456]

I get a deep emotion that isnt anget but is a very AGONIZING feeling that makes me feel extremely sabotaged inside and extremely nerve-wracking and need to become numb and self abandoned and invisible... not wanting to be alive feeling...

[@TranscendingTrauma]

Shame comes with compliance

[@sarahwaling1562]

This was incredible. I am relating, learning so much from this channel that I needed to connect the dots on and do a deep dive into my experiences. Very helpful. Looking forward to next Sunday.

[@suzannebunbury2961]

I’ve had a recurring dream for decades, a dream of a FILTHY toilet, it was so dirty and gross it made me feel nauseous. In some of the dreams I needed to use the restroom but couldn’t because the filth was prohibiting. You said that narcs treated the scapegoat as a object. I think that I was treated as a toilet for all of their unacceptable toxic waste, a receptacle for their vomit and diarrhea.

[@firehorse9996]

Have had those very same dreams. Needing urgently to pee and the toilet is in the middle of the fruit & veg section of the brightly lit supermarket! Right out in the open next to the food ... Or it's in a filthy tiny wooden shed and I can't even fit through the door. Lots of other variations. LOL What this really means is that you need to go to the bathroom but your brain is working to prevent you from bedwetting by telling you No! and waking you up (that's why this dream is remembered).

[@ravenel2]

Anyone else feel freed by thinking of shame as a protective tool??

[@narcabusevictimgermany9687]

Jay,I am a scapegoat of a Narc, it hurts.

[@lilaccilla]

Shaming is used in religious societies very effectively . for example in an older movie 'Witness ' with Harrison Ford at an Amish community . Yes it is a very devastating thing to be shamed

[@bonnieking4913]

Just been cruely dumped ny a narc. The cut off is excruciating. The shame is the hardest!!

[@helenebezencon8906]

These three videos on shame are absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much !

[@CarterSams]

This is incredibly helpful and informational. Thank you.

[@winniewinkles]

Such an astute and smart chap, thank you.

[@cairosilver2932]

Shame also feels like a connection (X feels I should feel shame/X feels something about me) when the alternative is outer space/the void

[@dark7angel456]

Thank you once again. You validated my agony with all Narcissists in my life... Its very difficult ❤

[@edgreen8140]

Love your videos. Your right on topic- the retired clinician.

[@Joy.1111]

Yes. This is putting words to my experience. Healing

[@kimberlymccracken747]

It's SO uncomfortable and it seems to happen over and over again - different players/same dynamic. Thanks for such helpful information Jay 👍

[@csviolin0516]

Incredible video. Thank you much Jay. You have really helped me see life in a new way and I am so thankful for all that I am learning from you.

[@queenofscots839]

You’ve helped me so much, many thanks, truly grateful

[@kismypencek6185]

Thanks for explaining this dynamic. It's an elusive concept to me, but I think I need to make it not so!

[@maarit.gneleah]

Thank you🙏 So looking forward to the next video! I'm wondering what's been going on, since I've all my life been both angry/irritable and excruciatingly ashamed🤔 Both. Not simultaneously, but those two and guilt are the three most experienced emotions of my life, unfortunately. From this video presentation I gathered that shame and anger are sorta either-or emotions... not both and.

[@whimsylore]

I can't remember ever wanting my narc parent's approval. I feel like I was born knowing on some level that she didn't love me with actual emotions. But I experience deep fear and shame regarding losing the enabler parent's approval and regard...each time it happened...and might happen....

[@こなた-m1o]

YES!!! exactly the same for me.

[@kimberlygabaldon3260]

Yes. You describe this feeling so well.

[@NoNo-kf5no]

Thank you. This really helped.

[@SabrinaW-h4d]

Thank you.

[@GranadillaPlaysBass]

0:50 - First, what is shame?

[@tmking7483]

My 'Divided Self' In a toxic environment normal shame turn to toxic shame. When the Traumatized (cluster B's) are projecting their normal shame onto others_ SG Goldy Roles ect. The normal shame turns to toxic shame on the person receiving it. I can feel the two different shames in my body. Today I know the difference wnd ad a child in abuse _ it was obvious to me that this shame was not mine_ cause I watch them do their dirty deeds. What happened with me as an adult _ I did not know about these systems and was and is serially & in parallel narc abused in all systems i currently inhabit

[@chrisbcakes4949]

You just blew my mind...

[@spetsnaz4027]

Can you do some info on DID disorder caused by narcissistic parent?

[@ingainga1982]

being a survivor of narc family system and experiencing a lot of shame during childhood, could it have been a reason later in my life to reject a guy who showed me proper attention and love? It just was so shamed for me. Can there be a correlation between the shame I experience in narc system and this rejection ...? :(

[@bonnieking4913]

Anyone have the other parts. Shame is so debilitating. Depressing. Self doubt is scary too.

[@Fillysopher]

It makes so much sesne ehy i kepe reexperiencing shame

[@joannagomulka8906]

Incredible video

[@nancybartley4425]

Does a covert narcissist generate shame differently than a malignant narcissist?

[@thinkingjohn6772]

How do we donate?

[@michaelgarrow3239]

The outer space thing clicked…

[@tanyakashyap6944]

Wow 💕

[@bobbartley3680]

Are the negative feelings the parents have always spoken? Do they convey their negative feelings about their children through how they treat them? Do the kids get the message loud and clear without the message being spoken?

[@judywinters8615]

JAY, WHY DO YOU ALWAYS TALK IT HAPPENING ONLY TO A CHILD????FOR SOME OF US IT NEVER ENDS!!

[@nancybartley4425]

Can shame be felt without narcissistic abuse?

[@firehorse9996]

Yes of course. Our animal companions even seem to demonstrate shame - just look at all the KZbin videos people make when they come home to find their dog chewed up the sofa or strewed the trash can all over the place. Those big sad droopy puppy eyes. And we immediately forgive. LOL Problem here is that NPD parents try to instil a near-permanent sense of shame in their children. A shame that never goes away and resurfaces at the slightest provocation. For example, my dad gave me such a horrible beating one Sunday morning (approx. age 8) for not wanting to eat my yucky scrambled eggs that I may as well have burned the house down or poisoned Grandma! When I think about it now, that Narc rage is insane. Jay is brilliant for working this out as a critical survival skill. The beatings could have only gotten worse.

[@tmking7483]

I call my Narky Family _ the Cult of Crazy_ I recognize this in other families _ when they keep behaving in ways that satisfy the statement " doing thing behaviors that don't work over and over' gaslighting ( they carry gas cans around with them_ literally for me - I see gas cans _ Jesus gots the whole world in his hands.

[@Fillysopher]

U say the child can bear it or can handle it but that's not true

[@pettali5007]

Given your qualifications, it’s such a shame you read a script. Have you tried jotting down some talking points, then sharing your knowledge and perspective accordingly?

[@danika1276]

Who do you think writes the script

[@pettali5007]

@@danika1276 he does. I was a broadcast journalist. News presenters often write their own scripts. Referring to an autocue works on national television. It doesn’t work on You Tube. Many, many psychologists and therapists talk from the heart. I get having cues and prompts. Reading a script on audio also shows. It’s a shame he doesn’t talk to areas in his field he can really speak to. He wouldn’t sit in a therapy session reciting things..it’s a shame.

[@MSB780]

I’m pretty sure I know adults who do this very thing to other adults. 😲 🫣 🫨 😨 🤯