The Science Behind Pin Up Vs Pin Down Bowling Ball Layouts

This video takes a deeper look behind the science of drilling a ball pin up vs Pin Down. We look at both symmetric and asymmetric core shapes and share some insight into what is happening when you drill them differently. It's important to note that pin to PAP distance is more important than Pin up or Pin Down.
Layouts account for less than 10% of total ball reaction. If you are interested in where that number came from check out The 4 performance factors in bowling balls.
You can always join our free staff and learn more about Bowling at ctdbowling.com

[@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS]

When you get a radical ball they put a sheet in there with four or five different potential layouts. They seem to think there's a big difference. The differences aren't necessarily overall boards, although some are on paper. The main difference is smooth versus clean and angular

[@pethomas1223]

Great video and information on pin up/pin down!

[@byronfranek2706]

I'd love to see a series of asymm layouts based on Athery's chart, and the dual angle principles of benchmark, control, long and strong, etc... Thanks for the great videos.

[@juhapurola6263]

Thanks, very good video. I drill balls in Finland and customers ask a lot which one is right for them

[@dave4uall945]

Love them ctd pads

[@nbl410]

Great video... have you thought about doing a video on the same effects but no thumb I'd like to see your conclusions on it

[@johnrocksvold9105]

Great video. I am no expert on this and software seems to helpful. I did note, at east I thought I did, there was a difference in entry angle between pin up and pin down. Is that difference not substantial enough to matter?

[@chrisstrong3748]

I don't know if you get any royalties or whatever from Black Widow sales, but I got my highest series ever in league 2 weeks ago with the 2.0. Used it all 3 games. It's a great ball My dad had an original and is talking about buying one for my brother, my sister, my step-mom and then getting himself one. Lol

[@jvmiller1995]

Wow I knew you know your stuff but no clue you designed that core. Hammer will never give it up.

[@preppypunknyc]

Can you do these examples with diff pin distance for instance 4 and 2 inch layouts. I am curious non how flair potential with affect performance in regards to pin up vs pin down.

[@Ctdbowling]

We have that type of video on my channel with us throwing Bowling Balls

[@keithjones5837]

Great! Info….

[@hog8567]

Mo Pinel did this in the 80/90. He changed bowling, but the the big companies smothered him.

[@sprocket454]

What about pin up vs pin in the ring finger hole? Still only a slight change?

[@Cvette2004]

Is Blueprint still available? I know it is not being updated at this point.

[@brandoncathey2961]

I believe so. I wanna figure out how to implement different equipment

[@traviskirk3834]

I traded a old Storm ride for a single drilled original black widow. And soon I will compare it to my black widow urethane.

[@donkeydiehard879]

Weird that RG wasn't mentioned once and that is what changes and what matters. Yeah I couldn't disagree more with the bit about "having to be a 230 average bowler to benefit from pin up vs pin down." Total hook is a pretty useless stat. It's when and where the ball hooks that matters. A simulation is not accounting for different patterns and different releases. Yes in a vacuum "physics doesn't care who throws it." However, the path migration changes and there are Different styles who would benefit more or less from that change. On house shot I would agree that it all blends together. Even drastically different balls will look the same. However, the small things matter on sport shot. Even if you're a 200 average.

[@Ctdbowling]

What is the unit of measure on RG? You think it matters a lot, but do you really understand what it means? Do you have any actual hard data to back up your thesis? In a best case scenario you are going to get 4.2 boards of difference in layout. That's way different layouts BTW. Considering the repeat rate of a bowler who averages 200 which we have that data from Specto. You are not going to be able to see a difference because the ability to repeat shots to the breakpoint. Where the majority of ball reaction happens, isn't high enough to decipher difference. We presented an entire study on this topic a week ago at a Master's class. Look at the date in this video. There is a lot more information to support the claims made. The best part is it is not subjective opinions based on what we have been told. It's objective data based on what we can measure.

[@jannthomsen2760]

@@CtdbowlingIt’s about different shapes, not „total hook“

[@kirkreusch8415]

Send me that software please!?

[@JAW_73]

You used to be able to get a demo version of it from Ebonite.

[@jerryvanzant]

What about other pin positions?

[@Ctdbowling]

We have other videos on this channel that discuss additional pin positions. Type in Ronald Hickland layouts into KZbin

[@vontreherumaiBH]

So the higher the hook potential, the lower the hook is? Orrrrr

[@sprocket454]

Why would a house shot give even less difference? Couldn't the wet/dry exaggerate the difference?

[@Ctdbowling]

The purpose of a house shot is to mask errors

[@jannthomsen2760]

@@CtdbowlingIn „total hook“, but an angular ball is going to have problems on over/under conditions and the rounder ball less so

[@munkeynutz13]

Pin up is quicker response to friction and down is slower and shallow so more round and forward. Down has a tendency to deflect more from stepper angles because you are drilling into the top or core where up you are drilling into the side of the core! They look similar but the response time and core migration time is totally different! I like to use down on high friction surfaces with a touch of surface. It blends better, where up is too strong downlane and if I use surface it’s too slow

[@Ctdbowling]

Do you have any data or testing to back up your response? I'm not arguing, I find it intriguing to see where opinions come from and especially if there is something to actually back them up.

[@munkeynutz13]

@@Ctdbowling only my own personal experience over the years and talking with my PSO. Everything in bowling can of course be a three hour argument...haha! It can be so subjective depending on what house you're bowling in, what their oil pattern is, ball surface, how old/new their lane surfaces are as they can have more or less friction from house to house even if they used the same oil pattern. Then take in to account the different speed, rev rate, axis rotation, skill level etc. of different bowlers.

[@atbsigma]

@@exesemas In baseball, Hall of Fame players swear the physicists are wrong when they say a 100MPH fastball doesn’t rise. That’s based on those hitters’ observations and experiences. Bowlers’ observations may draw them to a conclusion that the pin location creates a difference in carry. There’s nothing wrong with those assertions, since we who understand physics can simply watch CTD or Storm (or in baseball, watch a physicist explain the forces on the ball that create the illusion of rise). Then we can compare those to our own observations from playing the game.

[@mrbrianc]

@@atbsigma The perceived rise is mainly due to the ball not dropping as much. One of those sports science shows did something on Nolan Ryan's 2 seam vs 4 seam fastballs, and the 4 seam just didn't drop as much with the spin direction, but in the box, it did look like it rose through the strike zone. The magic of depth perception and visual acuity,

[@ianh3475]

Love the vid but the clicks are damned annoying

[@4shownee]

What the fuck is that clicking noise