The Season 6 Debate feat. Flats, mL7 & Freedo

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Timestamps
0:00 Introductions
1:20 PvE Feelings
29:40 New Support Hero Illari
42:00 Support/Power/Healing Creep
1:15:55 Steam Reviews & Where Does Overwatch's Negative Reception Come From?
1:47:14 Flashpoint, Balance & Other Quickfire Topics
1:53:15 Concluding Thoughts

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 18/08/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-season-6-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@Chadmlad]

All I can say is I'm so sick of difficulty being only "Enemy health up, Enemy Damage up" The difficulty scaling wasnt fun whatsoever for me in my experience

[@d4mephisto]

agreed. this is a problem across all blizzard games sadly. mythic+ in WoW scales in the same way... higher dungeon level, more enemy hp and damage... Diablo 3, same thing. Higher Greater Rift level = more enemy hp and damage And now Diablo 4, too -- higher nightmare dungeon level = more enemy hp and damage It's the laziest "difficulty" a dev can add into any game. I hate it so f*ckin' much man. It's NOT more fun, it's just more annoying to play against higher hp/damage enemies when *you already beat the exact game mode before* Show me something new, something novel... something you actually DESIGNED. Not just "ok so let's make this mode... then for each extra difficulty let's just add 20% more hp/damage each level" Lame as fuk edit: flats was channeling my thoughts about this at 8:00 go figure lmao

[@illitaret8780]

This isn’t correct, your opinion is wrong. On lower difficulty modes the health and damage are insignificant and do not require an understanding of mechanics. When damage and health are altered the player must understand and INTERACT with the mechanics to win. It is a vast oversimplification to state that the only differences is greater health and damage.

[@Chadmlad]

100% agreed, my man @@d4mephisto

[@Chadmlad]

@@illitaret8780 Thats a long way to say "The only difference is Health and Damage, which impact your playstyle but nothing else"

[@nufcjoker9057]

@@illitaret8780never ever call someone wrong until you 100% sur of yourself ..

[@SpartanKyuubi]

Here to hear Flats complain about discord Orb.

[@C1umsyJester]

Shits stupid tbf

[@pancakekidgaming8273]

I came for the doom posting about the Brigitte rework.

[@Smoovcrminal]

Amen

[@Warrior_Meta]

Came here to listen that he is still complaining about discord. That ability seriously needs to be looked at lol.

[@Grux_ASG]

Somethings never change, ow is one of them

[@kwink740]

The boys are back in town. Also great to see ML7 on the Podcast again

[@flyingfajitas]

ML7 is awesome, just a super cool dude.

[@vopcracker3193]

mL7 certainly seems more genuine than Flats, who's was shilling as he always does for the entire video 😅

[@iyxon]

Need Freedo to make a video on his thoughts on PVE because I feel the same exact way, especially with how lackluster and nothing the story content and writing was.

[@KKJazz]

Good news, he did

[@aecomplet]

I believe they released the PvE missions just to avoid a lawsuit, if you play other games that are coop-PvE you clearly see its lackluster, just let the team focus on the PvP honestly

[@Autopoietico]

ML7 is so level headed, I hope he come back for the podcast in the future.

[@askers_]

He has Stockholm syndrome

[@WARofROSES]

He's level headed because he's lying to himself. Him sitting there saying PvE wasn't cancelled is just incorrect lol. We all watched the team announce they scrapped it. He wasn't making any points. He was just talking nonsense. Maybe it's the language barrier idk

[@inkursion5868]

​@@WARofROSESAre you another one of those people who think that talent trees were supposed to be in story missions? Coz it's not true. It's true that they cancelled half of PVE, but they didn't change much. Rio mission was showcased at Blizzcon 2019 and looked pretty much identical to what we've got

[@Glizzyman]

@@inkursion5868 you just proved them right, the talent tress were the main thing from the pve that everyone was hyped about and that blizzard themselves hyped up like crazy, teasing us with cool upgrades withouth that pve is just paid archive missions lol, ans yay we payed smt that we saw 4 years ago yeepee

[@inkursion5868]

@@Glizzyman For some, yes, they were the main feature. But talent trees WERE NOT MEANT TO BE IN THE STORY MISSIONS, thats my point. If you are upset that they are not implemented, that's ok, just don't spread misinformation. Also community hyped this feature up much more than Blizzard ever did, they barely showed footage of it and all we saw were a few custom abilities and a WIP UI, those hero missions might not even been good in the first place, but that's speculation. I, personally, really don't get why it's such a big deal. You weren't scummed to buy something that was cancelled, the game turned from 60$ to f2p with paid story missions for which you didn't pay unless you wanted them

[@finnbacon]

I absolutely agree with Freedo on the PvE stuff. My expectations were so incredibly low and overwatch still managed deliver a really short shallow experience for an unreasonable price to amount of gameplay.

[@Xiatter]

I justified it to myself as the Sojourn skin would have cost that much on its own. But that's STILL NOT COOL, BLIZZARD. 🤣

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

The best thing about the PvE by far was the cinematics and environments. The gameplay was nonexistent. Which means you lose nothing by just watching it on youtube.

[@joelhess1436]

​@@user-et3xn2jm1ui paid the 15 bucks and regret it. On my second playtrough i tried it on highest difficulty but i left in the first mission because it was so boring after u see it once. Never ever again.

[@Rush9999]

It's not what they promised and it's not even good as missions imo, it can be fun with a stack but the only time where maybe I can justify the purchase is if youre buying a battlepass already and you want the sojourn skin as well as have someone to play it with (additionally some interest in the story of this game). Having this many reasons to justify the cost kind of speaks of the quality of the gameplay.

[@rey40]

Such a great and civilized discussion. People with very different opinions completely exchanging their thoughts respectfully. This is what a debate is about. Excellent talk!

[@guysensei3114]

The look on ml7s face when flats said it took 3 days to beat the mission on hardest diff😂 he was like really?

[@Falloutx360a]

I figured freedo not tweeting/making a video about pve meant he hated it

[@47battles]

Imagine rather than voicing your criticism you just stay silent , closed mouths don’t get fed

[@KKJazz]

He did end up making a video

[@theclownery8394]

Ml7 was such a nice add to this discussions cast honestly. He brought so much educated opinion and input especially for the support roles interaction within the game

[@MrSoBitchy]

he's great

[@piusdoe8984]

Bruh he's bias for support makes it hard to take his takes seriously. He'd make a case for 200dmg ana

[@fuscello]

Freedo and svb are both high level support players, maybe not number 1 like ml7, but that is why the “freedo, Sam, svb and flats” podcasts were so good, basically no bias whatsoever with all sides pulling at the same time

[@thatgayguy2824]

Ml7 gotta be the most forced personality I've ever seen

[@PhenomRom]

@@thatgayguy2824he wasn’t always like that

[@dogs-game-too]

5v5 is probably better overall, but it definitly made the whole "my team wont regroup" thing *feel* worse because you either have a tank with you or you don't, whereas in 6v6 it was less reliant on one person. You can tank gap the other team so much harder now too lol.

[@ninjatran]

svb is a great host

[@yogran1]

I am looking forward to seeing Stylosa on the podcast at some point. He's been here since forever and I would love to hear him exchange words with you guys

[@fuckyouyoutube7921]

Sty is very night and day, but i think he would be a great addition too :)

[@kirin9991]

that dude is the worst.

[@ryanmccarthy7572]

he cant come on... hes to truthful and principled

[@wildwarturkey8356]

sty is very honest, like the guy a lot and people wouldn't love/hate him if he did not tell his truthful opinion about the sequel

[@dairyfarmer5519]

@@kirin9991 why

[@waynetec13]

It's weird, ya know? I (mostly) quit playing OW, but the game was so dear to my heart, I still listen to and watch content on it. To me, OW is like that ex you thought you'd wanna get back with, then you try and remember why you broke up. I wish I could recapture the lightning in a bottle, but I feel like the game has become "just another shooter" to me. (I've never been a FPS fan, but OW had some secret sauce that is gone for me now)

[@GallusOW]

Love to see you back. HOW IS THERE NO "ALL HEROES" MODE IN THESE MISSIONS?! Restricted cast, compulsory heroes... god damn. Winston is not a fun character to shoot bots with. Come on, man.

[@Damocles450]

Because they only recorded voice lines for the heroes in the missions. The heroes that made sense to be a part of the missions. Also, it won't make a ton of sense for Ramattra to have voice lines in a PVE mission in which he is trying to stop null sector...of which he is the leader.

[@hydrodingozzz]

my brother in christ, winton alt fire chains from bot to bot in pve. it goes crazyyyy

[@Nynzy]

@@Damocles450 They did not really have voice lines for all hero modes in archives~

[@Chr0n0s38]

Archives didn't have all heroes initially either. Why did people expect all heroes mode in the first place? It's a campaign that isn't even finished yet.

[@Nynzy]

@@Chr0n0s38 So? Why should this not years later... just like new mmos should have endgame content

[@joereed8872]

How do I describe this. I have a close friend who play ow casually. I would describe his opinions on the game as pretty neutral. He about quit ow when he saw titles saying pve was canceled because he specifically thought that ow wasn't getting a campaign anymore. I think people forget that if you were excited for the promises from 2019, than you are much more informed about ow state of existence than most people who play the game.

[@TheyCallMeIan]

I hope ML becomes a permanent host :) or at least a guest that rotates often

[@Real_MisterSir]

Every team follows their frontline. Tank defines the frontline. Tank is challenged uniquely with managing space and match tempo more than any other role (by default as a role pick, not a specific hero pick). This means the job that the tank does, spirals down to everyone else, forcing the tank player to be much more decisive and picky about how they play. When you then only have one tank player in that role, you dump all of this onto them, meaning they have zero windows of opportunity to seek out potential value that they as a player with their chosen hero uniquely can seek out - because they are always anchored down by their main job of controlling space, and nobody can pick up their slack (for lack of better word) if they want to pursue some other opportunity that catches their attention. Like, imagine you as a dps, you play Soldier and you shoot down main and nothing happens.. Well, you still have your other dps who is also shooting down main, so regardless of whether you are also there or not, you will have some dps pressure down main. That means you are free to evaluate the situation and say "hmm I think I will try to soft flank up on this high ground to open a new angle, and see if I can divert pressure". Same with support, if you play Moira and your other support is an Ana, you can look at her and say "she can keep up a fair bit of healing, my assistance is not really mandatory right now" and you use that window of opportunity to soft angle the enemy backline and pressure them out with your dps potential, to open up the fight by introducing some chaos in the enemy backline. Now, imagine the above scenario, but as a tank. You see an opportunity to dive the enemy Widow who just used grapple into a bad position - and by all means it would be good value for you to punish her for it. But you can't, because if you go after her, then the enemy Reinhardt is just gonna run down your backline because there is no longer a Winston zapping him as he's trying to move past the high ground you're currently controlling - and in the meantime while you evaluate this risk, the enemy Widow has already gotten a pick. Shit luck, go agane. In OW1 this was not an issue to the same degree. Yes you had to really focus on a frontline because two tanks is a lot of hp and damage ready to streamroll anyone who does not respect their presence - but there was still more leeway in how you would assess opportunities. One tank can still maintain somewhat of a frontline by kiting and repositioning - but if you have no tank then you're shit out of luck and you just get rolled. The focus on an anchor frontline from a tank duo is so vital to ensuring that chaos and deathmatch feel does not overtake the game. It locks people's focus in place because that tank frontline is rigid and has agency. It can stand its ground, it can also punish mistakes instantly. You have to be more precise with your timings and positions and decisions overall - which naturally filters into matchmaking because people get fewer free passes. Personally, I believe that's one of the core reasons why matchmaking feels so ass in OW2 -aside from all the new players, it's also the fact that you can just get away with so much more dumb shit because there is not a strong frontline to punish bad decisions with immediate consequence.

[@ReaveIdono]

As a Tank you can still do those things with just 1 person in the role. The call you mention on diving the Widow IS the correct call in a Rein v Winston scenario. If Winston's team doesn't understand that they won't have the front line pressure and position close enough for the Rein to run them down then that's not Winston's fault. That is the fault of his team not capitalizing on his unique strengths over Rein. I'm also not saying to change characters either. If I'm playing Soldier (This is common as 76 is one of my top heroes) with Winston as my tank, I'm not going to stand close to the Rein. I'm going to take a much further engagement to pressure Rein or off angle high ground if possible so Rein has to really commit onto me. That's how you work with Winston to create even more space as Soldier and not feeding if Winston leaves to hunt down a squishy. Because contrary to popular opinion, all roles create space in the game.

[@racmanov]

Another problem is that now pretty much everything hardcounters you on tank of since heal creep you cant frag anything

[@pibble9207]

They should just replace open Queue with 6v6 rolelocked. Overwatch 2 really shafted the off tank player community like me, who actively liked pursuing other opportunities than being a space holder

[@ReaveIdono]

@@pibble9207 You just failed to adapt. My best tank is Zarya and I still see massive success with her. Probably got stuck thinking you're supposed to fight the enemy tank.

[@diegocorvalan5435]

Kind of a bad example to tank, if you are facetanking as winston against a rein, you are the worst player

[@lamparo7028]

Love this video thanks for this Listened to the whole thing while working today it was the perfect background noise

[@thesquirtlesquad8446]

YES! Absolutely love the highlight intro. Especially for heroes who normally wouldn’t get a PotG to finally see something they equip on their character.

[@ZeGreatBamboozle]

been waiting for this. welcome back!

[@michaelc7418]

1:13:36 - Freedo is wrong thinking 6v6 = shooting barriers for longer. Depending on how 5v5 & 6v6 are balanced, 5v5 could be shooting barriers more of the match than 6v6. Like imagine 5v5 but with more barrier health & size. This is solely a balance issue, not a 5v5 vs 6v6 issue. 2-2-2 helps to prevent steam rolls and rock-paper-scissors meta. Having a 2nd Tank allowed for more different Tank picks to work on more maps. A solo Tank Junker Queen in 5v5 on a long range map is horrible, since you don't have the 2nd Tank to allow your team to play in the open more and close the distance. Bad team comps for said map are punished much harder in 5v5, which certaintly means more 1-sided matches causing people to hate Overwatch. 6v6 is just better.

[@Treeckogeek]

Yes, you are right, but even if the heroes were perfectly balanced(which will never happen especially with how much harder it is with 6v6) each individual person would have a significantly lower amount of impact on the game including tanks, considering they get blown up when they are beefier in 5v5 not considering another tank shooting at them. This lower impact on the game makes it less fun to play and just goes back to the reason 6v6 wasn’t nearly as fun as 5v5. You don’t have nearly as big an impact on the game, the game becomes more like a moba with a focus on teamplay and abilities and less like a shooter where you are rewarded for your own skill. I played years of overwatch 1 and I can now in overwatch 2 say that you can climb on any hero based on your own skill, you could not say that in overwatch 1 because the game was so much based on counter picks and abilities that it took literally more than double the amount of time to climb. But lets be real, the overwatch balance team would never be that good.

[@michaelc7418]

@@Treeckogeek It is a common misconception that balancing is harder in 6v6. The reason balancing is harder in 5v5 is because damage threats & abilities are much more likely to get past the Tank and onto your squishies, meaning lots of big value abilities and burst damage goes unchecked. Having a 2nd Tank also helped to balance dive comps being blatantly OP, since you could peel for your team easier in 6v6. There really is no way to balance the Tanks in 5v5, since the rock-paper-scissors Tank meta of having to constantly counter swap the enemy Tank will never go away, because it is baked into the design of the heroes. 6v6 helped prevent this rock-paper-scissors Tank meta by adding in a 2nd Tank as a factor to help mitigate the weakness of a Tank match up. Winston vs Roadhog is a bad match up, but if you have a DVA with the Winston, he won't get bursted down by the enemy team before he can do much. There is no way balancing 5v5 is easier.

[@Treeckogeek]

@@michaelc7418 all of this is true but it actually doesn’t show any evidence of balancing being harder for 5v5 all you did was explain how counter swapping worked at the time. In the video they talk about tank rock paper scissoring but I would like to add that if it really became a problem for a certain tank than they would Buff them accordingly, but that hasn’t really happened in 5v5 because you don’t rely on your teammates to counter-counter swap tanks so that you can have fun. You have more impact as yourself because of the 5v5 format(and stun removals)that you can hard carry a game against a team of bad matchups up to the ranks of high top 500. I do agree with you that 5v5 makes dive meta, but this doesn’t mean that 6v6 doesn’t make a tanky comp like goats meta, so even if it proved your point it would be void. I enjoyed talking to you and to go back to your original point I would say you are right that 6v6 doesn’t necessarily mean shooting shields if its done right, but either way, I believe it to mean less fun. We would probably never get 6v6 back but if we did then they should probably hire you lol bye.

[@michaelc7418]

@@Treeckogeek I enjoyed talking with you too; see ya later. ^_^

[@Link2855]

6v6 would have literally been fine if they had just taken Orisa's barrier before OW2.

[@alexmiller4055]

Great episode thanks guys

[@johndow1645]

I was waiting for this. Thanks a million times for your wonderful content SVB. I know that these long-format videos are not the most popular so probably not really bankable for you but I love it, keep it up.

[@b23beatz]

Nice to have a guest like ML7 that genuinely enjoys the game at the highest level, he doesn't seem jaded at all and it's refreshing to know I'm not the only one who enjoys this game and has for years despite the various issues that have come

[@mrlunar62]

Blindly enjoying is the same as blindly hating.

[@aerostrafe1075]

@@mrlunar62 heaven forbid not everyone is jaded and angry about everything.

[@gabrielsensei3001]

Great Podcast as always

[@YourBlackLocal]

The idea that PvE is up too anyone’s standard is shocking. This is Xbox360 level gameplay. For $15 in 2023… I have to wonder if people just don’t play other PvE games and that’s why they think it’s worth it.

[@KiraMahMan]

Ive only heard people who only play PvP games say the PvE was good lol if you have any comparison to what a good PvE game experience is you'd without a doubt say what we got is very much not worth $15

[@pibble9207]

Only casual pve players like ML7 like it. PVE overwatch is like a poor mans Borderlands

[@slicvic00]

agreed with everything ml7 said besides the nasty backtracking on PvE canceled. it was canceled. they failed their promise on content thats a cancelation if i promise you a gourmet steak and give you minecraft rotten flesh i failed

[@Jay_daewi]

Dropped right as I’m abt to go on a road trip. Perfecttt

[@InsOmnicBox]

The story is so sad. It could have been pretty sick, but its been boiled down to “mindless robots attack, we must fight” cool, great concept.

[@Kamiroon]

Wait PLAT CHAT is gonna be on next episode. THAT'S AWESOME! Love the podcast SVB!

[@raleb26]

First time seeing this podcast and really seeing svb, but wow he is such a good host. Im genuinely impressed.

[@ctpalin]

Welcome back! 😀

[@Thehatter106]

I just can't take Freedo seriously. He has old videos where he talks about the Archive missions as PvE, every time he mentions this new distinction he just comes off as dishonestly trying to rationalize clickbait. I also personally changed my mind on the f2p with battle pass and shop model well before it was announced because I heard convincing arguments for those systems, I'm pretty sure from a YourOverwatch video. This was back in like 2019, so the idea that content creators have no influence seems pretty silly.

[@FunctionalFreedomFit]

As someone in low metal tanks, I am always looking for turrets and focus it down. When I’m with friends and I can call it out it gets knocked out. I think if someone did some clever shielding we might lack the coordination

[@jplayzow]

This is why the basic "Hey, did you know Lúcio has 2 auras?" Isn't helpful imo they need stuff that helps you use them not just tell you they exist.

[@PieceOfCandyPS]

where samito

[@nickmilicic1194]

LETSFUCKINGGO I'VE MISSED YOU LADS

[@imfamouswarrior2976]

Something that could make hero mastery interesting AND solve an issue with the missions mentioned early on; include common important pve mechanics in hero mastery challenges. Have pve specific events happen for heroes like Brig and Lucio who need to boop stalkers, or Rein having to charge the chargers... that way new players have a way to learn pvp and pve mechanics in one... that way it feels more like a whole package. Could have a section for "pvp" when youre fighting bot heroes and then a pve section where youre fighting bots, could explain things like Winston jetpack dmg and charging m2s to chain btw bots for their first playthrough of it, then they can grind/speedrun the hero mastery missions if they want.

[@disgustedguy]

7:30 - Flats and ML7 defending this PvE shit is absolute bullshit. They act as if the absolute "minimum" that was supplied is absolutely "sufficient". The main thing is "fun", but under what conditions and costs? Seemingly irrelevant.

[@TheDevos1]

One thing I think they should do, and I know this would make ppl sad if they could maybe not play their favorite character, is tailor missions to specific characters abilities. Because we can’t make characters very unique through talent trees and stuff, I think it’d be great to like have missions where maybe mercy has to Rez an important ally or Mei needs to use her ult to freeze something in place, maybe there are spots and puzzles only pharah can do. It would make it feel way more purposeful. I know it would suck not being able to play your favs but the Gothemburg mission kinda did that and it allowed for better story telling and action AND I think it was objectively the best mission.

[@C1umsyJester]

Yeah a widow stealth mission would acc go hard aswell. Maybe you make your mind have knock out capabilities and you need to grapple around to your vantage point then take everyone out

[@TheSupportWitch]

Yay your back!!!

[@cycl10ps]

Another reason for the "PvE is cancelled" going mainstream was articles - dexerto and gamespot had pretty horrifically misleading headlines and people just ran with it on twitter.

[@mrlunar62]

Or coz PvE is shit and they pretty much just wanked off for 5 years doing nothing

[@Real_MisterSir]

In regards to PVE I think ultimately just taking the mind out of it and not thinking about stuff like "we would never have gotten what we were promised", looking at it in isolation, is the PvE worth 15 bucks? Would I personally go on steam with 15 bucks in hand, and spend it on that? Fuck no. Not in a million years. And that's not my expectations speaking, it's not because I'm dissatisfied with what was promised but not delivered upon. The PvE is simply not that good relative to what they're asking for it. It's overly simplistic, lacks any sort of end game replayability and progressive challenge. And most importantly, there is nothing original or innovative about it that gives a new or better experience than what we have tried in other games countless times already. If I was entirely new to Overwatch, would the PvE feel like a novel experience? Sure, absolutely. But so would the base game which is free, and everything about the novelty aspect is what the base game pioneers. The PvE doesn't add anything to that experience, it just stretches it thin over a too generic base and slaps a dollar tag onto it cus Blizz gotta make money somehow. Look. In a week nobody here will give a flying F about PvE. People will have played it a couple of times, seen the limited scope, and then say "yup, that's that" and go back to the PvP base game for replayable OW content. To me, that does not sound like a 15 dollar game experience. It sounds like a 15 dollar cashgrab masquerading as a new experience when it's just archives 1.2

[@untapped8776]

I mostly agree with you, but it's worth noting that just the PvE by itself is actually $5. The other $10 is for the coins that get you the Battle Pass. So if you were to completely divorce the PvE experience from the free-to-play game, then the value proposition isn't $15, it's $5. Because most of that is built and meant for the Battle Pass. That being said, would I buy that alone on Steam for $5? Probably still not worth it, but not to the same degree. I think if the AI was much improved and the writing and story are better, then it would be, even without the talent trees and stuff.

[@SuddenlySham]

Poor Fredo. He is the physical embodiment of how many of us feel

[@vopcracker3193]

Meanwhile, mL7 seems like he's in denial, Flats is actively shilling Blizzard-sponsored "opposing takes" as per usual, and SVB is just trying to keep the podcast flowing in general. Fredo might be the only truly genuine person in this podcast.

[@vopcracker3193]

​​​​​@@krystaliteV7 Freedo seems to speak for most of us; I'll give you that mL7 and SVB are being more genuine here with their glib positivity than, let's say, Flats is. Flats will literally say whatever makes him more money, and lied about PVE up until the initial reveal, despite knowing via OWL's demise/ connections where the game was headed.

[@galev3955]

@@vopcracker3193 I don't think ML7 is in denial, he probably really just doesn't care enough for PvE, as he said, he doesn't play those games very often.

[@galev3955]

So true. When he started talking about the fundamental design problems, that was good. Like finally someone is addresisng the elephant in the room! He makes really good points. Also the one about the steam reviews, negativity and Zelda.

[@Zyborgg]

Sure picking maps has it problems. Like what would the queue times be for gibraltar or other maps people struggle with? But on the flipside. Some maps would become even more iconic like kings row is called the dust 2 of overwatch. Or you could get super good on antarctica and just play that map for 20 games. But they’d have to remove some maps of the queue times got too long so one option might be to queue for a mode. You can queue for control or push and then you get any of those maps.

[@pibble9207]

It’s kinda remarkable how much lower rank experience matches up with top 500. Obviously players will get away with things they shouldn’t have, but more often than not you will have that fundamental experience of “be healed or die”. Tanks and dps don’t like being babied by supports, supports don’t like babying them. So stuff like self-healing seems like the only step you can take, because it allows characters to act independently of their role. The superior alternative would be a global healing and damage nerf, but Blizzard isn’t willing to do that.

[@MoreRice28]

I think 6 vs 6 with the arcade health pools would work.

[@josephreynolds2401]

They should have this be a regular arcade mode.

[@immortalmadman4822]

Doomfist and Junkerqueen with 300 health. Might as well make them dps.

[@MrJordan3023]

It would not

[@secretlyaslug2325]

The health change was made and some were really poorly balanced and they haven't touched it since. Arcade has been pretty unfun as most tanks since.

[@vopcracker3193]

6v6 with current balance and a more flexible 6th role (Tank & Support role) would be a game I would enjoy playing again, but they'll never do it since it would make Overwatch 2 seem even more of a joke than it does now.

[@spacecowboy7193]

Oh shiiiiiiiit! SVB is back! Let’s gooooo!

[@alfred9805]

Biggest problem imo with overwatch pve/cinematics is the lack of relationships between characters. The first cinematic with winston/tracer vs reaper/widow was awesome, the other one with genji vs hanzo was awesome. Now it's just a group of heroes bashing on a bunch of lifeless bots. There's no stakes, no story worth telling.

[@ReaveIdono]

You clearly didn't watch the story cutscenes with a comment like this.

[@MsElViktor]

Now, without his posters or the window behind him, and with the kinda "darker" illumnation, everytime that Freedo inst speaking, i imagine that hes listening Evanescence

[@SolStryker]

Using maps to improve hero diversity is a good idea in principle, but in practice it becomes quite stale in terms of the actual felt excitement. Back when I still played, I remember the feelings of "Gibraltar eh? Guess I'm monke again" and "Kings Row? WHOO finally I get to play rein zarya". Not exactly the most exciting thing when the splash screen upon loading into a map decides your pick.

[@Ninja_Tude]

48:12 as a Rein, i couldnt kill a Cassidy because he had an Illari or Lifeweaver pocket this weekend. And I Started within 15 meters. He was able to just fan me thrice and i couldnt kill through the heals.. In My Range

[@thegaminglord1777]

I think Freedo's points over them being targetted unfairly makes me understand the situation that they have better and makes me empathize with them more. Taking a step back to really think about how could they make influence on a game with millions of players when most of them have a much smaller viewer base than that really helped me to get it better, they're literally a drop in the bucket. These problems are not KZbinrs Dooming on the game, but from Blizzard's shitty decisions and business practices on a game that millions loved finally reaching a head as people play and understand the difference between the PvE we got and the PvE they themselves promised and talked about numerous times before and even after the release. I would also like to say I think 6v6 would be entirely fine to make a return, the problems with double shields is negated by the fact that theres only two tanks now that can have a permeant shield and all the others have either a limited time frame to be up or alot less health than before. I think its silly to think that we cant have 6v6 or that is was completely shit because of just shields and CC, when blizzard could of just done the same or more reworks to the tanks to take away more shields or make them weaker and then destroyed CC like they already did (And then don't bring it back with Brig Ult, or McCassidy Grenade or fucking Mei Freeze, like seriously these people are so bi-polar). Playing tank atm is just too stressful and not fun, I dont think it was worth it to wreck the whole role to satisfy the MOBA feel like all the other 5v5 F2P MOBAs to sell some overpriced, recolored or shit skins.

[@itsjustburna282]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the watchpoint pack to get early access to the beta of overwatch to cover Pve

[@tristenherron1273]

To make pylon less afk, they could have a limit on how much it heals at a time before Illari needs to refill it. Kind of like how Torb is able to repair is turrets, except she just refills the healing. That way she can’t just place it and leave but now there is some upkeep for it making it less afk

[@geoffking6525]

Telling people how to succeed at the game with text prompts is just poor game design.

[@CriticalxMiss]

For the pve missions- I refuse to pay 15 bucks per. I might pay 5 bucks for it, and then occasionally 10 for the battlepass- but I won't support then bundling it. On a more positive note- I do wonder if these early missions are simpler because it was supposed to be early on in a box game which typically have missions ramp up over time

[@d4mephisto]

Unfortunately, ML7 doesn't want to admit to himself that OW2 is a greedy cash grab, cuz this is his livelihood and it's a conflict of interest for him to admit as much. So, he doubles down on "I'm not having any problems bro, idk what y'all are talking about with 'the game is bad'" It's called survivorship bias.

[@untapped8776]

Or, and hear me out on this... Some people actually just genuinely like and enjoy the game. Crazy, I know. I thought Overwatch only existed for people to hate it. I'll take my Blizzard paycheck now.

[@askers_]

Stockholm syndrome.

[@johnmetzakis2910]

To take the negative solo experience further, for what ever reason after the first day my solo matches became me and 3 bots or if lucky another player and 2 bots, and in these make ups it was next to impossible to clear any from hard or more. especially Toronto when your the only player due to the braindead Ai you cant cover both npcs at the station and kill the subjucators etc. its not fun, ive just paid $22 Au for a pre game warm up now.

[@aimeemcaleese]

This happened to me too. That bit is impossible to pass with bots cause they follow you. I managed to get a run-through with 1 other player and 2 bots, and we got through it by staying on one side each. There is no way I would try legendary with any bots in my team.

[@srtnnrnn7405]

I think Flats and Freedo are coping a bit about the impact of negative creator coverage. Even if you do some positive stuff, the tone and delivery matters. Twenty "this is kind of cool and might be a good thing" videos all together still don't have the same impact as one "this game is dead I'm thinking of quitting" video.

[@KKJazz]

Yea Flats take was off here, as expected. You could hear ML and SVB kind of pushing back on it, talking about the responsibility of people with influence and such. And Flats gave some weird hypothetical that made no sense to justify himself.

[@Bluemansonic]

Shooting the head makes them attack faster, shooting their gun forces them to melee only

[@android4754]

I think with Illari the pylon nerf is justified but I have a bigger issue with here gun projectile hitbox size. I do not know if you guys tested it but it is ginormous. Like bigger than Kiriko kunai on a hitscan gun. Like you can completely miss and still headshot people. It makes a "high skill" character feel really cheap to lose to when it is practically impossible to miss.

[@sjshdjdjesj5628]

What are you talking about its the tiniest thing ever????

[@AVERAGEYOUTARD]

​@@sjshdjdjesj5628you're actually bad if you think this. The hitbox is massive in comparison to other hitscan

[@KhaiShinryu]

Great episode this time around. I am a little concerned personally for the next podcast with Plat Chat though. I’ve tried to listen to them before but I think I’m far too spoiled with SVB’s moderation. They speak over each other a LOT making it very difficult to understand what a lot is being said so hopefully SVB can tackle that beast and maybe have that level of moderation carry over to their own podcast as well.

[@forcekin1350]

The best way to improve PvE is to release a mission with the introduction of a new hero. Have a cinematic with the new hero, then have a level with the new hero as a playable character. The missions they do have now should end with a raid boss moment. Not a bunch of waves of the boring enemies to survive against. Why didn't they have the players fight the titan in Gothenberg? Such a waste of resources. Could you imagine the titan standing out in the bay blasting rockets and lasers at the team? Maybe every ⅓ health you get through the titan triggers the chest laser and destroys a part of the map. Or have an attack that was similar to bastions ult glitch back in the first few months of Overwatch 2 and just bombard the map with artillery or a bigger version of Pharahs ult. The prices in the store should make it possible for free PvE missions, and where's the all heros mode for the PvE? Let us play with any hero like the archives events.

[@johnsmith-ol9qj]

Biggest concern is lack of flexibility. Overwatch is essentially just Rock Paper Scissors the FPS. If they have hog you go ana, if they have flyers you go hitscan, if they have genji you go winston. You play a control map or flash point you go mercy and sit on the tank to just hold the point. A lot of this lack of flexibility has come from sustain, supports don't die now due to 1.5 second health regen. Tanks give less ult so offensive ults that can wipe people are less avaiable. Dps die in two seconds and can't even trade because there's a get out of jail free card on a support E or shift up all the time. Things are supposed to die and that's why OW1 was all DPS, because at then end of the day the game was about the frags. Now when bap, ana, mercy, illari, lucio with pump it up, and the others just heal you to full, you have to be top 500 or have a whole team to focus down a target. Which is good for "promoting" team work, but we are a group of randoms who could care less it the other person on my teams cpu exploded. Majority of the time if just takes too much coordination to get anything done which is way to similar to real life were people want to escape from.

[@zc8673]

The only major issue I have with PvE so far is that the AI sucks. Which I think they realized which is why they cancelled it. It's fun to beat up robots but the harder levels are just mind numbing grinding.

[@mrlunar62]

Also the fact that it’s just call of duty campaign pretty much. Except instead of 20 missions there is 4…

[@Blackbirddc]

The audio on this one is quieter for some reason. And when the ads play it's super loud.

[@DecayedPony]

The best part of the PVE was the cut scenes, at this point they just need to make an arcane style series. Overwatch is unique compared to other FPS where the characters have a ton of potential for entertaining stories.

[@FDE4L]

I just don’t care that PVE got canceled. In my opinion, that’s the best thing that could’ve happened because it now put overwash into finally what seems to be the right direction PvP

[@texdoc89]

As someone who has been playing this game since OW1 Beta on console and now on PC, I too didn't go in with very high expectations as I'm also like ML7 and while I enjoy story driven games I've always fallen back on Comp FPS titles. I honestly enjoyed it for what it was, I did get the left for dead vibes but I didn't really find that much to gripe about outside of the normal "it wasn't what we were promised" get over that already, we all knew at this point it never was going to come close to what Jeff talked about. This has been by far my favorite drop of content to this game since my girl Ana Banana was introduced, I love the revamped progression system, the new mode is a breathe of fresh air that push couldn't give us. Skins are always on point and honestly balance isn't all that bad and not much to complain about. If you don't like the game anymore, or you can't forgive Blizzard executives for the crap they've pulled, then I hope you do find something you like playing, for me that is OW2. So my old ass is sticking with the game until the wheels fall off.... also let Ana run faster 🤣🤣😂😂

[@Kamorzy]

I think destroying the healing pylon should have more of an impact. Rn the CD on it is like a Torb turret, but it doesn't need to be as exposed and easy to kill as a torb turret. Maybe 18+ seconds if destroyed or so. That'd also naturally discourage leaving it up all the time, bc that would be very risky. Also, idk why the blatant powercreep in the dps role isn't being talked about. Gigabuffing soldier into meta for no reason (to only a couple hundred damage/10 below bastion). Gigabuffing bastion (probably to keep up with soldier). Unnecessary genji buffs were never reverted. Tracer just got indirect buffs. Echo also got buffs lately and is a top dps now. (none of this to mention that dive was already very strong before the buffs). Then they go on to say its not oppressive so they're keeping it. Sounds like damage is being pretty openly powercrept to a new standard of damage, which makes it even more like they say. As a dps, I already can melt a tank in a 1v1, even without playing the especially strong dps picks. And with tank playability. I really think they need shorter cast times on defensive abilities and more flexible usages (low CD or charge meters). DVa and Rein are a ton of fun and engaging to play bc of the mind games you play with DM and shield. They should lean more into that to help tanks be more flexible and work around counters. They instead gave most of the no cast time defensive abilities to dps, who usually don't really need it bc we already have the most freedom in positioning. Tanks are in the open all the time and need to be very reactive, which lowering cast times and/or converting CDs to charge meters will help with. Idk if it'd solve all the problems or how it'd apply to every tank, but I think its a general design philosophy the role would benefit from.

[@spew42]

I feel like Illari should do 70 dmg to the body instead of the current 75🤔 Her healing pylon + ability to 2 shot a Tracer make her practically the best dueling character in the game, and I'm not sure that title should be held by a support. I implore anyone reading this to try her out in deathmatch and see it for yourselves. At times you'll feel practically untouchable as your opponents are forced to give you free shots on them since they have to eliminate your pylon before having a reliable shot at eliminating you. If the charge time on her primary was longer, then the current damage value would be fine imo, but I personally think it'd make Illari feel less responsive and clumsier to play, which I don't want, because she might genuinely be my 2nd favourite character of the entire roster. Nerfing pylon will certainly give Illari less room to breathe in engagements, but I'm not convinced that this "breathing room" is an unhealthy thing for OW. Basically what this boils down to is the length of engagements: longer duels give players the space to think more proactively about their next move, whereas shorter ones force players to play reactively instead. Obviously increasing the average duration of a duel too much would make engagements drag on for too long and feel exhausting (think double barrier or GOATS from OW1), but I think that OW2 has room to lengthen certain engagements without them losing their adrenaline. (This is basically the reason Hanzo, Widow, junkrat etc. Have become such hated characters to go up against in OW2, because they exist in a game with short team fights AND have a near instant time to kill) Nerfing Illaris damage would require the Illari to hit at least one headshot to maintain the same optimal time to kill, which then affords her opponent half a second extra to try and do their job.

[@nemil2898]

The shield meta from OW is the same experience with the current sustain meta in OW2. You shoot at something that won’t die or break. Either way it’s pretty boring.

[@lorkieborkie2537]

There just needed to be another layer to the PvE experience. You look at other comparable co-op PvE games like DRG, Borderlands, Payday 2 and many others, they all have progression, quests, gear upgrades, skill trees, loot, randomization etc. and all these add up to make the core gameplay loop of shooting AI actually rewarding and meaningful. I get that OW PvE is smaller in scale but what we got was very bare bones.

[@zythotv]

Finally, another episode of my favorite podcast. Season six has honestly been so far pretty good. ♥

[@forlorndream4511]

I'm surprised not many people have mentioned this, but if you look at player count (using steam charts and steamdb) between for overwatch 2 compared to other games that have been out like 10+ years, like team fortress 2, left for dead 2 or even have a hard time competing with payday 2, it launch on steam has kinda struggled to catch people attention on steam platform. Whether that's from blizzard mismanagement and poor reputation, or an audience attempt to review bomb the game itself, what trend is happening is that player falloff for this game on steam only has been slow but steadily happening since its launch a few days ago and I don't expect to return back to a higher point until a new patch/hero comes. Overwatch 2, personally has some really fun gameplay and is great to play with friends, but it is concerning to see how, even if these charts and numbers are new, this relatively *brand new* game to steam is honestly kinda drowning and I don't see it recovering on the steam platform itself any time shortly. I would be interested to see what changes people want to see for the game in order to improve player count for this game on these new platforms and storefronts?

[@Bebopvicious00]

Lets get a DF main on this podcast. I am sure they have a lot to talk about in regards to bugs, balance and fun factor.

[@Vastspartan]

Either zbra or Quake. Quakes style of gameplay is nonsense but he has mastered doom tech unlike other OTPs

[@ES_DCSAVIOR101]

Never going to happen but I think we need to consider the idea of not being able to swap heroes at all. Gets rid of Counter swapping and probably help out a lot when it comes tom balancing characters. Obviously a lot of balance changes would need to happen hence why it would probably never happen.

[@Draken4]

That's literally Paladins.

[@mctmctavish]

The truth is, as a tank player, I'm sad at the multi-player because tank is boring and unfun. That is a personal problem. But the hard pill to swallow is that the PvE will live in the shadow of what it could have been. We got let down massively 2 times in a row, with no content on ow1 and dropping the ball on PvE. With lack of trust and some stuff currently being boring if can feel like the grass will never be greener.

[@frozenfury0]

At a base level the charater's kit is designed for pvp not pve.

[@dylanbersano9488]

After being a dps main for years and recently (like 3 months) swapped to support I love the dps aspect of support. I love being able to win my team the game because my shots are hitting while both my dps can't hit the wall in front of them. Another thing I love is we're moving away from supports that can't protect themselves. Sure the old supports can do it but actual downsides to having to protect themselves. Ana, if I use a anti to save myself from someone diving me I don't have that for the fight, sleep only works against 1 person what happens if i'm getting double dove? Zen I can hit shot but he has no movement, bap if i have to use immortality I'm only saving myself. In most ranks supports don't have the protection like they do in masters+. Illari being able to protect herself without having to waste an important cooldown I think is actually healthy and will encourage people to try and play support. I have numerous friends who tried the role and got rolled because they were getting dove by tracer or genji, and a winston but none of the people in their rank would actually try and protect them because they were solely focused on just kill the other team.

[@ScottyGG]

My takes the same as SVB. I think even the worst games can be fun in a group, playing with friends. The real test is playing with strangers. I had a lot of fun with the former, and was genuinely frustrated and bored with the later. Just my opinion.

[@duckseatbread104]

My main issue with the campaign was that it felt unremrkable from a gameplay perspective. It wouldve felt unremarkable in the xbox 360 era. The story - the banter - the maps were nice but the ganeplay was very basic and not worth the money. Maybe just about worth it if you were getting the bp regardless

[@kameronseay3861]

It’s a separate purchase from the bp

[@duckseatbread104]

@@kameronseay3861 I know but if you get the battle pass regardless ecery season its effective £5ish vs £15. I still didn't think it was worth it personally.

[@kameronseay3861]

@@duckseatbread104 I wanna play it but I already bought the bp for $10 and I don’t want to drop an extra $15 on the pve missions

[@duckseatbread104]

@@kameronseay3861 yeah the way they priced and labelled the thing is a joke tbh. It's gross. It shouldve been a battlepass bundle so it's clearer for everyone. And forcing people to pay cash and excluding the use of coins is also gross. There's a streamer thatpunchkid who had like £100 worth of currency and he couldn't buy the missions - he rightly refused to part with more cash - scummy practice

[@ksjxbsbxiebd]

we couldnt be upset if the shitty ass missions were free but the fact that they tried to make money with this shit, and even package it with 1k ow bucks......thats just sad and what flats said...yeah dude i understand that thats just a way to make money of something they fucked up...buts the point is, they fucked up not the community .... how about giving something back to the players in hope of bringing them back?! since pve was cancelled, i have played like 3 hours, this game was my every day game, but f this..i dont support shit like that...still got 1k bucks, i dont spend them....rather play baldurs gate 3 or other games that respect my time and money. how about they fix the ladder or some shit? xD nope they rather give us 4 missions for 15 bucks...lmfao

[@Splashbang_OW]

Sorry to burst your bubble Flats. Steam reviews disagree with you. People in general disagree with you. Why? Because Legendary mode difficulty is only possible to complete for the top 500 players, not the general player base. It's boring, it's shallow. They even reused assets from previous archive missions with a zero IQ AI.

[@markusobi4148]

What kind of bird-icon is on the bottom of each screen? Looks illegal to me ...

[@TheNerd]

What is the puplic perception? I am playing Baldurs Gate 3 right now. A Game that fullfills what Blizzard promised all those years ago, without micro transactions.

[@jplayzow]

If they pick up the pace of hero releases I wonder if that would really be good for the gameplay beyond getting more people. Lots of people still don't understand shit like jq or kiriko. They were literally the first heros released for ow2. Illari is pretty simple throw a turret down but people hate turrets and afk value. She's got an ult that requires you aim vaguely in their direction and then hit a few shots. Pretty easy to pick up and that's good, but can they continue to capture that?

[@guzzy19901]

they should first lower the strength of MOBA type utility like purple anti heal, and discord orb, before touching the health pools of the characters. Reducing the percentage reductions on purple and discord would lessen situations where solo tanks get blown up, and reduce the importance of cleansing those effects with suzu

[@MrBreakdownx]

I was playing a game a couple of days ago were I was rolling on Junker queen. Then the counter swaps started. Zarya. Ok I should be fine. Reaper. Ok not to bad. Kiriko. .......... Ana. Like bruh can I enjoy the game as tank without getting counter picked up the ass and deleted.

[@KiraMahMan]

Nope. Honestly might as well play a different game. The way the game works now with one tank there's nothing that can be done to stop counter swapping I think. We have to just acknowledge we'll be putting ourselves into a game of counter swap simulator whenever we queue for tank now lol

[@MrBreakdownx]

@@KiraMahMan yea sadly. I'm so cynical about it I just started queueing ranked and not caring. I'm on a mercy only and torb only run cuz tank is getting frustrating and it just seems like they want to make the easy characters good. I'm hoping Mauga is fun though.

[@Ysylla5]

There is no argument that we did lose OW1. OW1 and OW2 was meant to be out at the same time. Steam reviews are warranted because the game is a giant cash grab, The heart and soul are no longer because of shareholders. Every Blizzard game is going this route.

[@omgbutterbee7978]

Going to be real, I was hyped for pve in 2019. The cancellation of scope was devastating and my worry is that it would just end up being archives+. When it finally comes around and I have to buy it with real money instead of spending the overwatch coins I have ALREADY paid for that killed my interest entirely. I wouldn't even mind paying for them if I could have used the currency I already paid for if it was just $5 worth of coins. So I tried out the free underworld mission. And when they say it is bad, they are giving it too much credit. The free mission should have been a thing to convince me to actually open up my wallet. It should have been something to make me want more. But it was so bad it killed any chance they had of me spending money on the pve missions.

[@gathyx]

Great episode as always miss samito tho

[@screamat333am7]

I hope that they update the pve missions in some way. Make the ai better and add more stuff around the maps we can discover. More intractables

[@charaznable8082]

They really should look at games like Vermintide and do something like that.

[@KiraMahMan]

God both vermintide games are such masterpieces

[@cesarfigueroa8467]

Saying the youtube thumbnails don’t contribute to the backlash is like sayin that a newspaper portrait don’t or articles headlines don’t affect the outcome of anything. The influencers negative thumnails are clearly NOT the reason of the game bad reception, but it obviously contribute to it.

[@cristhianrosado6900]

Bruh i love Flats face at 20:17

[@ninthfriend3347]

Well, like Brig said when she respawn - "no place but to go up". Game can only go up from there on. Maybe one day they can go back to the drawing board of PvE talent trees. But as of now, they should focus on improving the game first. Even through terrible management by Blizzard, the devs will always put into the hard work onto this game. It may not be the same team but the passion for this game is still there regardless! Rooting for them to keep on improving this game! Like Tracer said from her interaction with Ashe - "It doesn't hurt to look on the brightside"

[@mop-kun2381]

thats not true, the problem with the game is that they dont get resources, executives, producer and shareholders on this game all want to milk as much out of this game as possible with minimal investing. which mean this game to them are expendable. One of these day Bobby Kotick gonna wake up in the morning and think "This isnt worth milking anymore." and thats it, the server got shutdown, the dev team either got fired or dissolve into other team at Blizzard. And Overwatch is gone

[@ReaveIdono]

​@@mop-kun2381Good thing Bobby won't be in control much longer and Phill Spencer will let them do what they need.

[@mop-kun2381]

@@ReaveIdono cant be too sure about that. Sure i'd love to see Phil Spencer boot Bobby's ass out of the company, but something tell me i'm might not be that lucky

[@ReaveIdono]

@@mop-kun2381 It's literally in the contract.

[@mop-kun2381]

@@ReaveIdono well then i hope you are right

[@s0sa1ty]

"When something starts sucking you" lmfao