The Great Support Debate feat. KarQ, Eskay, Bogur & Emiliath

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Timestamps
0:00 Introductions & Opening Thoughts
17:50 Support in The Betas vs Now
30:55 Design of New Supports vs Old Supports
1:09:30 Mercy
1:21:40 Zenyatta
1:30:00 Moira
1:45:00 Illari
1:57:01 Ana
2:14:25 Baptiste
2:27:55 Brigitte
2:34:55 Kiriko
2:45:30 Lifeweaver
2:58:00 Lucio
3:08:40 Concluding Thoughts

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 6th October 2023. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-support-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a

[@MrTruth2410]

on the topic of support passive i think its better at this point if devs drop global passives idea and balance heroes case by case in their role: Ana sleep/anti cd increased to 16~ sec but her new passive when she hit a headshot reduce anti/sleep cd 1 and not consume ammo so the more Hs she hit the better uptime she has, unique passives like that would be cooler than everyone has out of combat regen

[@avadanocum6495]

I love the ego on support players, even if u play good how the f does that mean that u as a 2 peson role player can completely shut down a 1 person role player?-"The kiriko negates ana", wtf a u saying? If ur iq is above 20 u hold sleep before enemy tank engages, and either u win time so he did nothing(bc he was countering sleep) or u kill him bc he was on the ground and of course support just have to do same or more dmg then dps, WITH EASIER HURTBOXES AND SMALLER HITBOXES - wtf, how in the hell u think its balanced. Orisa meta was bc she WAS the ONLY tank that wasn't hard countered by supports. I understand that supports need to be impactful but having the best cooldows, best survavibility and good easy dmg is fucking too much, choose at least 2 Also what the fuck do u mean if ana misses her cd she is dead- u assume my dps can do anything with the healing suppots have, and also why the f do u need to be so close- she has inf range. Why the f i HAVE to rely on my team to punish ana for missing her cds when dive is dead? Also everyone has to have support passive so if u play tank and ur supports go moira+mercy u can play the game

[@rationaldemon195]

Id like to put this into the air in case of next debate, eskay mention about being top 500 and its a skill issue for other tanks, my question then becomes why was it easy to be top 500 on tank, you can easily see a diamond be top 500 tank, this isn't to say eskay didn't deserve it but my issue is that this fundimentally ignores the problems of tank, climbing isn't hard when there is nobody competing so this opinion of being a skill issue isn't the problem but the issue of fighting whats given to you and the frustration is you would have to deal with discourages tanks to play in the first place. Anyway to clarify my problem is that nobody is competeing to be the top of tank its a misery being the best tank until they reach the top they won't realize the problems, its easy to be tank when nobody is contesting the role, but when that moment happens its a complete misery. Every tank right now doesn't want to be at the top they feel joy when dealing lower rank players because its the only fun aspect of being tank.

[@Bighoodiekid]

@@rationaldemon195 there’s millions of tank players

[@petercroome7759]

😅😅😅

[@IHJello]

How many tank players opened their arms to the heavens when they saw Bogur on the panel? Lmao

[@zestybesty11]

yeah usually he’s based but his take on mercy and ana were not it

[@koko-hh2bq]

@@zestybesty11I think Ana and Mercy is fine tho. The only reason why they feel bad to play against as a tank is because you have things like Bap and Kiriko's kit constantly making them nigh unkillable sometimes.

[@Heppa05]

@@zestybesty11massive cope

[@Vastspartan]

​@@koko-hh2bqthey aren't. I love ana but I can't defend her this time. She is overtuned at the moment

[@amerhst1201]

@@koko-hh2bq Nah Ana sucks to play against as a tank. Playing as a tank against Ana when you have no Kiriko is a nightmare.

[@ccalvac18]

Zarya/Orisa meta being unfun to play against is also a symptom of disproportianate power in support because those 2 tanks are the only ones in the role that can either negate the debuffs and cc that are plagueing the game AND/OR melt through the immortalities/nades via damage. If you aren't playing either of those tanks it is a miserable time.

[@racmanov]

it is not just supports. When enemy goes zen/mercy + bastion/junk/ or many other low skill cheese dpses what will you do? Go orisa. Even zarya will explode instantly

[@cbaileychamp]

Yeah ive been playing alot of tank recently just bc dps feels so bad. And thats saying alot bevause tank sucks rn too. Playing ball or doom and pop off one time and hit tab and see orisa sombra mccree kiri ana is just not fun in the slightest even on zarya.

[@racmanov]

@@cbaileychamp and i play dpses and supports now. With both you can carry. Dpses have so many almoat 0 skill cheeze options. While on tank yoh have to play at 110% and it still does not matter

[@Real_MisterSir]

Yep. They either have the ability to cut through support bs, or they can just stand there and survive anything by enabling support bs. The reason heroes like Rein are not getting played, is because they can't live off of supports nor pose a threat against an enemy with supports behind them. It's this weird middle ground and it all starts and ends with the supports. Tanks can outplay each other in isolation through various means, but supports ensure that only a select few are ever viable, because their synergy just rules out any and all counterplay outside of 2-3 tanks that always stay meta unless gigabuffed (which the devs tend to do when they don't know how to fix the problems they created in the first place with 5v5 and support creep).

[@FlightX101]

thats why as an orisa main i annoyed by the hate. Not much changed with the character......invuls and the healing creep made her op as it allows her to abuse cooldowns with little risk

[@askers_]

Shoutout to SVB for supporting really small streamers! Actual hero.

[@naliskun4222]

what a nice guy he's so sweet

[@smallertoast8806]

What a nice guy, boosting the small guys like Boger

[@ssvv1]

Now we need a Tanks vs Support debate... Flats & Yeatle vs ML7 & Karq would be soooo fun

[@diamonshade7484]

he mentioned probably doing it after this one on the tank vid

[@raffyarceus99]

But I want even people arguing for 6 v 6 into that, because in my opinion that is an important part on the tanks miserable experiences

[@chalopsten1408]

​@raffyarceus99 yep 6v6 needs to come back 5v5 is a shithole. I wish open queue 5v5 was more popular since it's closer to the 6v6 experience but being high master or low gm in open queue is the equivalent of being plat/low diamond in role queue

[@masoneckhardt8879]

This would be so sick

[@moonyeast]

@@chalopsten1408it's not happening 😥

[@dammitman3000]

"Just swap" the game shouldn't dictate who i play. I should be able to outskill someone on the character I've mastered consistently without someone pressing one button and deleting me.

[@silentdc404]

Swapping should give you an advantage/better tools to deal with the enemy. It should give a good overall player a chance to go even with someone who focuses on one character. It shouldn’t be to the point where you basically become a thrower simply because they pressed h after dying and clicked on another character

[@LEGI43ON]

No you shouldn't. You're team should play around you. If tracer dives you mccree with a stun or hog should protect you. It's the only way it should work since it's teamplay oriented

[@Hthe]

Yes and no, counter swapping should be a thing, but not to the point where you have to play literally perfect to win, and they just have to play normal, thought needs to be involved on both sides not just a a pick x so you can't play y

[@Summonick2]

26:00 Bogur didn’t quite figure it out here but it’s the combination of several abilities now that can ruin what you’ve done or that you have to bait. Now almost every support has something that you must bait or get out before you can do your cool thing that normally takes a lot of effort to pull off under a lot of pressure. Dps characters have these too, like turret form, hack, mag nade, mei stuff etc. So the problem has become you actually never stop the baiting things out play. It only took like one or two more things like that before it became now essentially infinite. Pretend your playing doom. Got to go in kill pylon. Nice. Now I have charged fist, got the pylon out, but they have a kiri too so I have to get that out or my punc, a risky skill shot, will be ruined and I’ll actually die instead. Ok so I took some time got that out, but pylons up again. Ok I kill that, now I finally found the magic window where everything is lining up, my team hasn’t died, I’m healthy, I have my own CDs, I’ve been waiting so long for this, I’m doing my punch from a clever angle, there’s so much pressure on me, boom, illiari boops me off target. Start the whole thing over. Then add dps abilities. Other tank abilities even on top of it, bubble spear. Anyways, the point is the window to actually do anything but just bait cds has closed because there’s too many good CDs to bait.

[@Alex_Aramayo]

I get ur example but pylon cd is 12sec & suzu is 14 so they're pretty much the same, only problem is that u would need to bait them out at the same time lmao

[@gamist8166]

​@@Alex_Aramayohis example has a lot more cool downs that'll need to b out at the same time lol

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

Also, baiting out cooldown is one thing. The game is ultimately still a fps. And there's 5 people that can choose to shoot down the 1 guy that was baiting the abilities out. In the end, as long as Kiri has her stupid suzu and tp, bap exists, wifeleaver exists, ana exists, you have at least 4 abilities to bait out as tank before you can even decide to engage. And this is assuming the dps are not characters with abilities to bait out. People often complain orisa has the ability to cycle her cooldowns because they're so short, yeah but so is their impact. She doesn't do "high burst" anyone saying that is on mad cope because you walk in such a predictable way to get speared when anyone in top 500 maining orisa are using it as a get off me tool. Zarya has high burst but if you remove her damage charge she will be an actual worse sym. Try playing zarya with no damage charge, see if their dps doesnt just run past you getting tickled. Bogur is the Unsalted of tanks as it is.

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

@@Alex_Aramayo Yes but getting in to kill pylon and escape alive takes time and to be healed up, assuming nothing dangerous happens inbetween then (which is never, this is ow), you have to wait for slam and punch cd to come back up, and you're trying to bait out suzu which will be on hold until the heat death of the universe unless your ana nades their team. And even then, she can choose to hold it until you as the doom engage. By then illari's pylon is around half way back to being up.

[@buttsmcgee50]

I like how every tank player pretends they're 1v5 in every scenario and think that's good evidence as to why tanks are bad. No, it's just you being bad.

[@rekelmao8213]

Notice how when they were talking about tanks they constantly only talked about orisa and zarya lmao thats the issue no tank wants to hard lock meta picks every game when dps and support have so many viable options.

[@xvcynical5701]

Spitting facts rn

[@kemonngo3106]

..and when the tank mains spoke they only mentioned a few supports as well (Ana & Kiriko were the main 2) so what’s your point?

[@xvcynical5701]

@@kemonngo3106 Probably because they're the reason why orisa and zar are the only playable tanks?

[@kemonngo3106]

@@xvcynical5701 Again, what’s your point? Tanks aren’t relevant to the support discussion so they weren’t heavily discussed. Supports aren’t relevant to the tank discussion that was at hand so they weren’t discussed. You’re not making sense

[@fuscello]

@@kemonngo3106 if you legit think that support being in their most powerful state since 2016 isnt one of the main reason no one wants to play tank, you clearly dont play tank and shouldnt be talking about the role

[@waynetec13]

I've said it before, but as someone who doesn't even play OW anymore, I really enjoy the group up. Great content, SVB.

[@nailinthefashion]

Same, it's fun to hear about news or opinions even tho I'm moving on. Tried Illari, gonna try new Sombra, but I have otherwise retired

[@MrGrombie]

As a Rein/Ball main, you can thank all the Bastions and double pockets for the rise in Zarya players. Literally the only thing I can do to secure my own kills.

[@arcalypse1101]

See, now THIS is a good take!!! 😊

[@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera]

Don’t forget sym, torb, reaper, mei and zen it’s kinda hilarious all these heroes are in the game to screw over tanks and I’m not even a tank main and see the bs😅

[@mrlunar62]

Isn’t bastion a good counter to zarya?

[@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera]

@@mrlunar62 you’re missing the point the whole enemy team can easily rps a tank player the enemy tank, the dpses even the supports it shouldn’t be like that or that much effective imo it’s annoying already having a tank player who hero watches you then you have the whole team swapping to only counter you? Like they said in the podcast it sucks the fun outta the tank player.

[@mrlunar62]

@@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera yeah but everyone puts up with this... if there is a genji u swap to sym or mei, if the enemy has a widow u swap to tracer or sombra. normally u counter each other within ur own role. like the best counter to ana is kiriko. the best counter to bastion is genji. the best counter to zarya is rein. thats how the game is. if u think the whole enemy team counters the tank, its not a competent team then.

[@DaffyTaffy93]

Old supports vs new supports The old supports have pros and cons such as zen having high damage low mobility vs illari having high damage,high heals,and decent mobility new supports have no downsides in their kits.

[@charlestothe]

Illari’s ult is mid as hell compared to zens.

[@Bornchad-dragoncock]

@@charlestothethan your not using it well enough

[@canadarkelfsaythenword7659]

Pretty much new supports don't have trade offs.

[@ZombieNinjaTurtle]

I agree :( Even Ana’s high healing rate was justified when she first came out because she actually has to aim. Lifeweaver can just outheal most damage right now and he doesn’t even need to aim, there is 0 skill required for his insane healing output. it’s like a bronze lifeweaver and a top 500 one will basically almost have the same healing output lol

[@lamparo7028]

​@@charlestothe She has a better ult than most dps bro lol

[@danielalvarez1230]

The issue is that supports can shut down not only most tank cooldowns if time correctly, but also ultimates for the low cost of trading one or two cooldowns. There is no much counter play a tank can do especially if two or three people switch to hard or soft counter the tank.

[@Siks7Ate9]

2VDQDA watch this game and watch me do literally nothing with every single ultimate as tank. Every single thing got denied.

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

The only counterplay the tanks can do to a support ult right now is pretty much illaris' ult Cannot think of any support ult that can be reliably denied.

[@KingYahtzee]

@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolongI'm thinking about it now and you're right for the most part. Bare with me here: Ana Nano: basically no way to shut down aside from a perfectly timed hook, punch, pin, or spear. Very rare. Lucio Beat: Same as Nano Brig Rally: can't be shutdown afaik Illari Ult: can be eaten or blocked with shields Mercy Valk: can't be stopped Kiriko Rush: same as Nano/Beat Zen Trans: can partially be negated with a shield Bap Window: can't be shut down Moira Coal: same as Nano/Rush/Beat I could do the tank ults next to really prove this point. But that's enough for a YT comment lol.

[@Bighoodiekid]

tanks can literally do the same

[@KingYahtzee]

@@Bighoodiekid a few can but not like support

[@flyingfajitas]

I tend to play all 3 roles. Support is really strong right now. Not even in a "better than the other roles" perspective, but in how they will control the flow of a round.

[@RealRye]

i feel like supports should be able to sway a game with good util usage, but not jus by outright out healing and even outdamaging lol

[@ForbidenXShadow]

That what that means…. Supports have way more opportunity to carry a fight

[@ForbidenXShadow]

@@RealRyethey need to make the skill ceiling for supports greater. Having aoe and auto lock ability’s is to consist for the strength they bring to the fight.

[@Siks7Ate9]

If you do something as tank it just gets denied or they use a ultimate and you instantly get denied your entire play because everything behind you dies instantly.

[@mangshu21]

Thank You. Anybody who regularly plays all three roles understand why people are not happy with the state of supports. They control games.

[@Nett11]

I went from plat to masters with only Illari this season. Id like to to think its me improving but I cant lie the role is so easy lol the amount of confidence you have in 1v1s against Damage heroes is insane. And the passive is mind boggling when the rest of the team dies and me and the other support have to peel back if we heal each other we are straight up not dying to almost anything

[@PhevieWonder]

The passive doesn’t do anything if you’re both healing each other. It’s only out of combat only.

[@onceright4406]

Im an Ashe main and its rough vs Illari man. Same range as you, but you just have to hit 2 headshots and instantly remove her otherwise she just outsustains and outpokes you. It's so dumb that she can literally commit onto me without being insanely punished for it.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Illari is dumb busted. You have the skill to make use of this, and you should credit yourself for that part. But it's still ultimately Illari as a hero who is just getting crazy value with relatively minimal effort if you have fundamentally decent aim and Pylon use. We saw the same (albeit to a more extreme degree) with launch Brigitte where people who were hardstuck plat and gold were reaching GM in weeks by just onetricking her the whole way before nerfs started to kick in.

[@Real_MisterSir]

@@onceright4406 Yep and remember she too can hit headshots and her shot hitbox is wider too. Illari just has so much value, and most of it is not even tied to high skill either - only really the ranged aim part is to some degree mechanically dependent.

[@theredguy92]

What’s dumb is that supports characters have the smallest hit boxes and their weapons have projectile sizes 2x the size of the other roles. It is literally easy mode.

[@InkPrince]

Emi hit the bullseye by pointing out the lack of flaws/cons that certain supports which is probably the key issue with certain supports being considered "OP". Kiriko can do cleanse, damage AND has high mobility and there's no way to necessarily beat/play around Kiri except focusing her otherwise her value is constant in team fights. Same with Illari, Lifeweaver, Moira and Bap. Their value is constant and there's nothing you can exploit about them that balances out the pros/cons of the supports. Characters like Zen and Ana hold a lot of power but lack mobility. Lucio has super high mobility but lacks strong healing and lethal to really persuade team fights 100% of the time, Mercy gives benefits but does nothing herself and isn't much of a threat alone. Brig has the MIT but lacks range lifeweaver was very much killable back then because of his hitbox but the devs buffed his survivability with the increase swift step healing and shield health which they shouldn't cuz it removed his flaw/cons. Same with Moira the devs buffed her so her resource management, self healing and escapes which use to be the cons of her having high Stats. And then the problem gets added to what Bogur said about how Supports stack covering each other definitely becomes a problem when you have 2 of these "OP" supports or even just 1 covering the faults of a support that isn't OP.

[@buttsmcgee50]

So far, this is the only sane take here. Each support should have a clear weakness to exploit, however you can't say it's an issue that supports use teamwork to cover the weaknesses of eachother. It's a game about teamwork, so thinking that is an issue doesn't belong in this game.

[@bucketwithin]

Mostly agree, but the Moira take doesn't make any sense to me. She has huge, glaring weaknesses. Heavily restricted range + absolutely 0 utility to speak of, and slow but steady dps. It's very difficult for her to manage her team's health outside of brawl comps without putting significantly more pressure on your other support, and she has absolutely no way to change the outcome of any fight besides "heal more" and "do damage." She's easy to play and get decent value out of, and somewhat annoying to fight, but more in the "gnat flying around your face" way and not the Kiriko/Bap/Illari "hit you in the face with a rock" way.

[@finnical9718]

Generalists should be overall weaker, specialists should be strong with clear weaknesses.

[@ryancraigt]

Is lifeweavers weakness not his lack of damage? He's not dueling many dps or any enemy supports. Sure tune his numbers a bit, but I think otherwise he's fine. Kiri on the other hand 💀

[@ccalvac18]

The tanks new role of almost exclusively baiting abilities now means that supports set the tempo; watching for nade, sleep, suzu, Kiri tp, lamp, pull, petal, pylon, etc before a commited engage is just nutty and creates for a very passive tank experience. There's now too much risk fir little reward for setting up engages on tank. The difference of whether I'm owning or feeding being changed in the blink of an eye depending on whether an aoe and/or immortality ability and/or deployable is used is just WILD. Orisa/Zarya/Sigma can eat or negate the abilities and are all relatively passive all ready and in terms of active tanks much of Doomfist's kit is based around baiting abilities (though Doom is having a rough time against Ana/Bastion/Sombra) so that's really why those tanks are seeing play but good luck to ANY one else.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Also the primary downfall of this ability bait is, that due to support creep, most abilities are either on short cooldowns, or can be fairly easily cooldown rotated to optimize uptime and minimize vulnerability openings. As a tank, your window for making an effective play boils down to 1-2 second openings per engage, at most. Outside of that, you're just playing to live and get some ult value in the process while not hard feeding. It's a very passive experience.

[@ollie2316]

also if the enemy kiri or bap isnt stupid, they will hold their abilities for certain ults etc. They talk about baiting abilities like its something you can consistently do "just bait suzu lol".@@Real_MisterSir

[@fergusgraem3625]

1:39:00 what bogur says here is true. There is not alot of close brawl anymore. But if your team plays it, moira is actually insane. Her heal orbs are so valuable in this comp. You can easily get 20k healing. And if the enemy team plays close brawl also (whats even more rare) you can also get ALOT of damage.

[@joeyu498]

eh not really. her kit need a major rework as she has no utility... do play her if you like your stats

[@lukelilly1572]

@@joeyu498moira is really good an acrually balanced as shit. They spend this whole video whining about how supports are OP and then half the comment section wants to buff moira. She’s good, really good, at her niche, they do not need to buff number.tons of raw damage, tons of raw burst healing, and has a great ultimate. Needs 0 changes.

[@lukelilly1572]

Buff her*. Not the numbers.

[@mattc6015]

@@joeyu498she doesn’t need utility what’re they gonna do give every character a get outta jail free card

[@mattc6015]

@@joeyu498and she’s very strong without utility

[@insector2]

I felt like Eskay's opening point boiled down to 'If you play these 3 OP tanks then tanking isn't bad'. Yeah playing the FotM character usually feels pretty decent, but to have the rest of the tank roster unusable doesn't mean taking is ok.

[@Alex_Aramayo]

But all tanks talk about is Ana, Kiri, & Bap

[@fernandomoras9160]

​@@Alex_Aramayoyeah, both roles have very strong heroes and very underpowered heroes

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

@@Alex_Aramayobut the list is much bigger for supports throw in LW, Illiari, mercy pocket

[@diamonshade7484]

​@@Alex_Aramayoimmortality, sleep and Ana nade

[@andreamicheli2575]

​@@Alex_AramayoWith the exception that even Zarya and Orisa are nowhere near as broken as supports

[@SixNineFourTwenty]

9:12 "Zarya is unfun to play against because she negates everything." Wow guess who also negates everything.

[@phannhat385]

Bap can heal the target she beams and deal 150 a pop by shooting her in the head at once, and literally delete her with window, bubble or not… also zar can’t effectively kill lamp around corner either without exposing herself too much. I guess she can be unkillable if they also have any combination of lifeweaver, bap, kiriko, and they play it right but that also inflate the immortality issue in support kit more and not help it.

[@SixNineFourTwenty]

​@@phannhat385i was quoting em

[@ooochoa]

Zarya is good this season because her bubbles are some kind of cleanse, very good for this overheal meta.

[@silentdc404]

While I can see her pov (I still disagree) my question is, has she played zar? Zarya is not my main so I may be playing her a bit wrong. From my experience you are basically playing support zarya most of the time and not even really frontlining much, at least till you get high charge. It’s not very fun.

[@demifolk8940]

wtf is with this tribalism shit overwatch is going into lmao multiple things can be annoying at once. zarya negating shit can be as well as supports.

[@rishabh5750]

This was a good listen for sure. Sad Eskay had to leave early and couldnt argue for Lucio when Bogur was going off on most of the lucio players being throwers hah. Still a fun episode. Keen to see if you do a DPS version of this too

[@smoki-senpai6247]

He did mention her as one of the few who he's confident winning w, most lucios are throwers.

[@rileyp3707]

Even eskay said before she left that she feels she would get more value sleeping at keyboard than playing Lucio

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

And bogur isnt wrong, half of my lucios are going in trying to duel an illari/ana/widow/hanzo/junkrat/even the fucking pharah and im sitting here thinking why.

[@PurpleNoir]

I second that, 90 percent of Lucios I play with are in la la land.

[@Bighoodiekid]

Lucio not even a bad hero, there players just suck 😭

[@OhtoMata]

I think one of the biggest issues of Tank vs Support is being proactive vs reactive. Tank has to proactively predict and block things like Sleep Dart before they even land, which is much more difficult than supports ability to just undo plays, after the dart has landed and it should be getting value supports can just Suzu, Life Grip, or in some cases due to their now bloated numbers just out heal the slept target who should probably be dead. Now I hate Ana more than anything in this world so I am glad there are ways to remove her broken effects, but the ability to "hit undo" for support is getting crazy especially when they are also good at making their own plays and keeping themselves alive. TLDR: Tank has to stop the play before it happens which is hard and interactive, Support can undo the play after it happens which is easy and soul crushing.

[@OhtoMata]

Also cheers to Bogur for having the worst take ever spoken on the podcast. It takes legitimately no skill to land Ana's abilities on the one tank who is the size of a semi-truck. That rickety old wench has 3 ultimates and people act like it is fair. Any one of her abilities can single handedly win a fight and no other character can say that. Even if you say bubble one she will step inside bubble and use the other, "but then she wasted two cool downs" no she used two cool-downs to get a kill and still has the highest healing output in the game AND good damage even without abilities. I play league as well and I still contest that Ana is worse than any horrors that game produces.

[@abirneji]

honestly you kinda got a point that I've never heard echoed before but as a tank main resonates so hard with me

[@penrilfake]

​@@OhtoMatathis is less a problem w Ana herself and 100% a problem w the support passive. The passive made it so she can use purple nade 99% of the time, and that's why she can feel so insanely oppressive.

[@OhtoMata]

@@penrilfake That is a pretty good point, I still think Ana was problematic even before the passives but you're so right that the passive pushes her into feeling oppressive.

[@freedom3208]

​@@penrilfakerole passives were such a mistake

[@ccalvac18]

1:01:45 I think SVB makes an excellent point here that really drives home the point of the issue: even in an active engage where a Doomfist is playing "perfectly" 1v2-ing an Ana/Brig and making it so all those resources are siphoned to themselves, it is STILL passive in that you are waiting for your team to take advantage of that pocket of time and *s p a c e* you created. It's the equivalent of a Mercy playing near perfectly but if their team isn't DOING anything then they aren't going to win; the whole point of these support tunings was to give supports more agency in games so they never endured moments like I just described (a good change) but by not attending to the needs of the singular tank they've now just created a new support role.

[@Steelers43jc]

Brig has been the problem for dive hero’s. It’s stacking especially if you aren’t cracked at the game a team that commits to full dive should be able to kill a brig

[@obscuradoom813]

What's the clip I haven't seen it

[@josephreynolds2401]

Interesting perspective. I think I agree. Should Doomfist be able to do more against this support duo? Or is it tank's job to aggro that attention from 2 supports so that DPS CAN make a play. The WoW solution is the latter. The Competition moba solution is the former. I think OW2 tank emulates the Moba tank more than any other genre of game with roles, even among shooters. Edit: Follow up to that, if it is the intention for some tanks to be one way or the other.... If the tank is playing for the WoW-->aggro-survive-repeat style, then SVB nails the issue with feedback. There needs to be positive feedback for sponging.

[@buttsmcgee50]

If we get to a place where a single tank can kill both supports with no help, you will never play the game again because no one will play support. This is just more evidence that tank players are mad supps aren't free kills anymore and it's tiring.

[@jimirio4191]

Its funny how they consistently brought up Zarya and Orisa, but that's because they have 'self cleanse' to prevent getting exploded by when hit by a support ability. This is the reason they are played and it's astonishing how the support mindset doesn't quite put this together. Supports can pop an ability and win a fight with little risk, while tanks pop an ability to hopefully survive. In OW1 the situation was reversed. I was surprised to see Bogur at first, but I was really happy to see someone in the podcast that's not biased towards their role.

[@Alex_Aramayo]

Everybody is biased of their role Tanks want to be 400+ hp dps characters Dps want all supports to be helpless/vulnerable & to not defend themselves & Supports want to have independent impact instead of enabling/saving useless teammates (Metal ranks)

[@diamonshade7484]

​@@Alex_AramayoMe a tank that just wants consistent heals😢

[@Alex_Aramayo]

@diamonshade7484 sounds like a support diff lmao if I see my Tank getting bullied by Anti's I switch to Kiriko if my other support doesn't

[@someguy9970]

@@Alex_Aramayo Support should be helpless without their team. Look at Medic from TF2, he's weak on his own yet no one is saying he sucks lmfao. OW has one of the dumbest playerbases I've ever seen I swear.

[@kin-3877]

Yeah no zarya and orisa are picked because THEY counter every tank not anything to do with supports at all. Bastion makes other tanks too squishy so orisa is the only tank that will survive but then you have to pick zarya to fight the orisa. And you cant fight the bastion with dva because again, Zarya exists. Blaming the stagnant tank meta on supports is the dumbest thing shek its been bastion, orisa and zarya being buffed that forced this meta

[@v2i5v8i2]

After the wifeleaver challenge, bogur is a LEGIT HEALER main

[@C1umsyJester]

Support*

[@johnymousAnonymous]

@@C1umsyJesteron lifeweaver you’re just a healer tbh

[@C1umsyJester]

@@johnymousAnonymous but your pull and platform supports the team, you’re not just healing

[@BeastMode-bw2ry]

More like trolling.

[@surprise7002]

@@C1umsyJester healer*

[@Gazaze]

I'm so impressed how ow community so much involved to the balance discussion compared to other games (thanks SVB for conducting this :D). I hope this will lead devs to a better direction for future changes. I wonder if they take such great input from this, or if they have other means to take input and balance stuff other than tracked stats :/

[@inlandthempire.6932]

What are you whiffing? Can I have some of that copium

[@ollie2316]

lol ... trusting the devs just look at the history of overwatch

[@damianateiro]

HAHAHAHA, I don't know where you get that from, but when it comes to talking about balance, the majority of the Overwatch community cry like babies and get angry like monkeys

[@ollie2316]

the devs are ass at balance changes idk how u could believe anything else. i agree the tribalism in balance changes is ridiculous- but the balance team is awful@@damianateiro

[@blakey9869]

Yeah the players talk about it all the time, it's a shame blizzard doesn't listen to us.

[@inahacim6582]

playing support in OW2, I can literally sandbag my abilities for the big plays because of the other support. Versus 2 tanks.. the decisions to use or hold abilities had more weight to the consequences

[@PrometheusXV]

Not finished yet, so I don't know if they mention this, but: I think the biggest point of friction against support players is how disproportionately easy it is for supports to achieve value than any other role. I play a lot of every role, historically a tank main, but I've been playing a decent bit of support this season - they're genuinely so easy in comparison. I mean, they barely have to aim. A lot of them have abilities which make their positioning super forgiving. Their abilities tend to be powerful even when used reactively so they don't really have to think about what's happening that much. All the while they casually put out damage comparable to dps. Compare that to Tracer and it's night and day. I've been practicing a lot of flank dps lately because it's my only "sub-role" that isn't consistently GM, and it's so infuriating trying to attack the enemy team's backline. You spend all of this time pathing, dodging damage, getting health packs, providing pressure - then you go to engage and it's just lamp, heal burst, suzu, pylon, you finally get one of them low and they're magically full health again, you doubt your eyes for a second thinking maybe it's a visual bug, then they escape across the map, or hell they just turn and out-duel you. It's just not fun. The amount of effort that you have to put in, just for them to press a single button (without aiming it) and turn the fight, is legitimately unfair. And I know some people might say "Skill issue" - which yeah, I'm pretty bad at flankers lol. Barely M1/GM5, and struggling even there. But I'm way better on other roles, and it's the exact same damn thing. Every time. The role is beyond forgiving in every regard compared to other roles. You have so much more freedom to play essentially wherever you want, and it's very difficult to punish you for it. Compare that to playing tank in high ranks where you get slightly out of position and literally just explode. "Well Zarya is soooo strong" - if Zarya mistimes her bubble by a millisecond she's getting sent back to spawn with a stamp and a signature. Her headshot hitbox is damn near the size of Ana herself. I regularly see Bap players throwing lamp at air and using shift before anyone is even low - and these players are like GM2 dude. It's honestly silly. Every other role feels like it needs to be on point with every decision and every shot, while support just does not feel that way in the slightest.

[@KingOfNebbishes]

Yep, even the "skill" of Ana is grossly overstated, since her hurtbox for her shots is much larger than an actual shooter and her abilities are much easier to hit, sleep dart being twice as large as a Hanzo log and nade having a huge AoE that doesn't have any falloff.

[@uhoh6763]

​​@@KingOfNebbishesUnfair comparison to the head homing Hanzo logs :( .lol seriously though, sleep and nade are pretty strong but we won't really notice till after suzu/lifegrip is gone. Specially in 5v5, a sleep is a lot worse than it was in 6v6. Unlucky it gets suzud just like shatter, sig ult, dva bomb, rein pin, doom ult.. and the list goes on

[@Real_MisterSir]

As a dps main who has been playing more tank and support since OW2 launched, (and also did around 40/30/30 prior to that), support just get soooo much easy value and it's not even close. Imagine if Reinhardt could just pin into your team, smack around, throw some firestrikes, and then fade his invulnerable ass back to his team with minimal consequences. That would put him on par with a generic support in terms of forgiveness. Now playing Ana, Moira, and Illari (primarily these 3, flex to others if situation needs it), I outdps and outfrag my dps allies consistently - and they're not playing bad by any means. They're just playing within their hero limitations. Meanwhile I can just hop around, use space as I like because if anyone threatening enough decides to duel me, I have 2 abilities to counter and flip the duel, I have self heal, I have equal- or better damage output, and I also have an ally Kiriko who can tp to me at any moment with zero risk and turn it into an ez 2v1 on our side. Supports dictate where fights can happen, at what tempo they are carried out, who can/can't flank or dive, and also commandeer ult fights. Most of this they do by simple ability use that rarely is mechanically dependent beyond aiming in the general direction of where you want the effect to take place. Playing support is like playing Dead by Daylight. Except I as the support am the one hunting everyone else while also keeping my team alive with relatively little effort.

[@joshthegoony]

Bogur kinda mentioned it. He talks about how wife leaver is so relaxing to play for the kind of impact he makes.

[@SuperThest]

@@KingOfNebbishes You're confusing the term Hurtbox and HItbox. Attacks have a hitbox, an opponent has a hurtbox. When scoped in Ana is just a hitscan, there is no hitbox for her shots. Her shots only have a hitbox when she is Unsoped and shooting an actual projectile, But every projectile now has a minimum 0.1m hit box which is what her and Hanzo use. It's worth pointing out that they only recently added that hitbox too. Ana use to have the only projectile attack that had no hitbox and needed to be pinpoint like a hitscan. Also, sleep dart has twice the radius of hanzo's arrow, but that makes it 4 times larger.

[@expertb6348]

You probably won't see this SVB, but I just want to say the way you conduct these debates is awesome. I don't really play Overwatch, but listening to these discussions is entertaining. You do an excellent job of guiding the panel members. You make sure they stay on topic as well as help them make their points in a clearer fashion.

[@ItBeJae]

Being a support main I can agree with a few things: There are a few supports that are annoying af to play against. But what people dont realize is that this change to supports is the communities doing. Supports are so strong due to 6v6 being taken away. Think back to OW 1. The off tank was the anchor of the team. They would usually be the ones on objective and would peel the most for the support players. Community complained about having the off tank due to double shields meta AND also how support players were playing certain heros together that just werent doing the job. Ok done! OW 2 comes out. 5v5 is put into play and supports are given a huge buff because that off tank is now gone. Supports are able to play whoever they want now (in some cases). Supports need to be able to protect themselves in the backline due to that extra support being gone. But now people are mad because of that? People complained that supports whined too much about needing help but get upset because now they CAN actually help themselves. I'm a bit confused by all of this.

[@siffumetsu271]

I appreciate karq being devils advocate in this but one thing i want to point out the whole "orisa cant die" thing is because supports are highly overturned on the healing side, we have 1 less person in the game why do we have way more healing lol

[@jewbee_5364]

While on paper that does make sense (your second point), the reality is that the removed role is the second tank. The second tank allowed for the other tank to share/offload some of the cc and damage between the two, making the trading of resources much more manageable. So now all the damage and CC is being forced on that lone tank. In my honest opinion what needs to happen is the decrease of damage and healing across all roles, with the tuning of hero abilities like fortify/bubble/all that good jazz (theres A LOT of kits and abilities that need changing or tuning but these are just the most over-glaring). It would be a massive overhaul, but its a necessary one since OW decided to move to a 5v5 format, as a developer you have to understand removing a pivotal piece in a game like OW is much more deeper than you can comprehend.

[@user-sg2es3jo6i]

@@jewbee_5364 these are the changes that shouldve been made in the transition from 6v6 to 5v5, they are basic, and blizzard (what a surprise) fumbled i think at this point the game would be more healthy with 2 changes: remove supp passive and add an extra tank to each team

[@Quizzy0000]

bogur blesses my soul i went from 59% overall winrate to 60% in this season with 4439 games played on lucio

[@typicallytex8397]

fun fact that 1% difference is 44 games you would've lost before that you now won so assuming 4 wins for a division up and 4 wins for a division down, instead of going down 11 divisions you went up 11 divisions making a net gain of 22 divisions or 4 entire ranks. source; trust me bro

[@nufcjoker9057]

Wow impressive that much of been like torture with this bad game

[@techn0screamer]

I’m glad y’all made this video. It made me feel better about a lot of my thoughts on the game. A lot of what was said was how I felt but I didn’t know if I was just because my salty or if others felt the same

[@AnikethBandi]

I think the issue here with saying that some tanks are strong is that tank players don't want to have to play the 2 tanks that are viable now. For the average player they want to play whatever, but if the other team goes orisa, or zarya, your immediately forced to switch to have a chance at having fun. Nobody is saying that zarya and orisa arent strong, but nobody wants to play those two but the way the game is right now basically forces you to play them. And this isn't like goats or double shield where it only affected the upper ranks, it affects the lower ranks now too. Now while that's not a balance issue and more of a 5v5 issue, I'm not here to argue for that. The other issue is that while not all supports are broken, all of them are still playable. Doesn't matter if its only kiriko, bap, ana, etc is strong if the rest of the supports can be played, meaning that the average support player can play their favorite pick. That option just doesn't exist for the average tank player rn.

[@ryancraigt]

I think the "play proper tank" in low ranks is just a placebo. You can play almost anything in metal ranks and be fine. What you'll be held back by is the attitude and behavior of your teammates reacting to a 'submeta' pick. Similarly people in metal ranks like to 'counter swap' vs the tank and end up getting less value because they arnt familiar with the match ups as well. Its a people problem not a game problem imo.

[@norman24]

honestly everyone except karq is based karq is delusional

[@eis-3844]

Fax

[@norman24]

mf is talking about everything except support lmao

[@heiko2255]

KarQ is shilling for blizzard and 5v5, cant take that Guy seriously Especially as someone who is supposed to give "Educational Support Content" he is pretty delusional

[@matthewmalloy1892]

I feel like a healthy change to turret based characters is to have them break when they die, but i am rather stupid when it comes to OW.

[@markstewardson4006]

I would like it if sombra hacks a turret based character the turret switches sides for a small duration forcing them to either destroy it and put it on CD or accept it being used against them for a little while.

[@diamonshade7484]

​@@markstewardson4006interesting

[@penrilfake]

​@@markstewardson4006 Yo I'd love this so much!!

[@kevinkalani]

45:00 Bogur's point here is what is the most frustrating about support. It feels like they can just hijack the game. As a tank I am always pressured to pick to "counter" even though 80-90% of the time, swapping the support wins the game. Feeling like I have no control over whether we win or lose because my supports decide to go Mercy Lucio, so I have to play Orisa just so I don't die, feels awful.

[@gamist8166]

Im so happy Eskay brought up the wrecking ball fireball size hitbox that illari has on her dps gun, better than ashe. Her falloff isnt bad either... The weakness to that damage is nothing. Nada.

[@Jeronimoeser]

I'm unsure whether this really should be considered for a core evaluation of the support tank interaction, but I think that a substantial part of frustration in low rank play stems from the fact that there is an expectation for a tank to protect their backline (i.e. genji dives in, tank should turn around and peel him off) while tanks also need to have a frontline presence and sometimes need to apply pressure and go deep themselves, effectively needing to perform the combined jobs of what previously was 2 tanks. You could say skill issue and that would not at all be wrong but if potentially the majority of your playerbase comes to wrong conclusions about responsibilities during a game maybe you need to adress that with design

[@user-sg2es3jo6i]

6x6 would solve that

[@xSolraccarloSx]

I hope Eskay knows it's appreciated what a trooper she was this podcast!

[@infurza9408]

Glaze

[@Khy_r]

this might be a hot take, but i feel as though the point KarQ made about how support can always do something no matter the situation is the reason i think the role is overtuned. Supports can provide utility through abilities (anti, immortality, stun, damage boost), provide damage, and provide healing, whereas dps can only provide damage and tanks can provide damage and utility. I think support should only be able to do like 2 of those things really well, not all 3.

[@Vastspartan]

Thats been the problem. The new characters can do too many things. Where is the weakness? Look at a character like Ana. She can heal herself then stun but once she uses up her abilities she's slow. Zen in the same way. He heals little with his orb, lacks mobility but he hits like a truck. Then we have the new characters (kiriko and Iliari. Kiriko can dish out more damage than dps, suzu can cleanse, heal and make someone immortal for a second TO A GROUP. Then if she is in danger she can TP out, or if someone is in trouble she can TP in then suzu. Then Iliari can do THREE THINGS. She dishes out a shit ton of damage, she can dish out of a ton of healing with her pylon and gun AND she can mobility hop. AND she has a DPS ULTIMATE).

[@TheEnviious]

This is true, and the supports will swap for whatever the situation needs, but you barely see any DPS swaps. We need MORE tanks, for more situations

[@lanax7922]

“I think immort is nerfed because people are more spread out” is actual gaslighting lmfao

[@ckamo10]

its true, you save maybe 2 people max with it or usually its just yourself or 1 person

[@AllThingsCubey]

​@@ckamo10This. You can even tell team you have it ready, and to group up to survive an ult, and they won't. You'll save yourself and a +1 at best

[@andreighinescu4946]

The great dps debate is gonna be a yt short

[@jmorgmate]

Bogur's insight to every hero / issue is just "its obnoxious" or "its annoying" 😂 he's not wrong, it's just not comprehensive enough for a 'debate'

[@captain4930]

When CC's, cleaning or interruption is around, its always along the words ' not fun'. Leaving it there

[@AbbyOW2]

Good morning! Just woke up and can't wait to watch this throughout the morning, seems like a fun episode.

[@AnimeOtaku56.]

Love your content Abby.

[@AbbyOW2]

[@morocuda2090]

Love you man!

[@AbbyOW2]

aaaaaaa where is everyone coming from ;-; thanks dood love u 2 @@morocuda2090

[@alfonsovelazquez9565]

I feel like spilo should have been in this one as well, especially since he always seems to keep a neutral ground on most things, and to bring up topics from the previous "debate"

[@diamonshade7484]

I thought he would have been but he will probably be in the tank vs support vid

[@alfonsovelazquez9565]

@@diamonshade7484 fair enough

[@vopcracker3193]

Especially with Eskay completely dismissing Tank complaints and most of the pod preferring 5v5 gameplay. Both of those opinions completely undermine their credibility with how resoundingly opposed they are to what the playerbase complains about on a consistent basis. Spilo is the only guest on the pod I've seen to acknowledge BOTH of these failures in Overwatch 2 while providing valuable context and productive conversations around solutions.

[@1trillions]

how you gonna have a great support debate and no ML7 cmon on bro

[@nathanaelshumsky2977]

Actual facts lol

[@supendous]

he'll be on for great healer debate dw

[@Azarthes]

ml7 couldnt make it dude cmon bro

[@Rulex-cq3rk]

This long podcasts are incredible

[@drphdmd7064]

The training wheels stuff about Moira is dead on. She's the reason why I stuck with the game. It allowed me to get value while focusing on game sense, and once I topped out on her, which was VERY quickly, I switched to Doomfist. Because of my time as Moira, I learned the mechanical skill aspect last, and now that I play Doom, I see a lot of success since I learned how to read the game already, and now I just focus on mastering the mechanics of the most difficult tank in the game.

[@jasonmension3979]

True but that also means the devs shouldnt be trying to make her more viable higher up, she needs to stay in silver and gold and I think she could have some relocation of her power to better set that, because it also works the other way where a few of my friends never wanted to learn ow because getting past moira was to much of a laughable pain in the ass when they can go learn another game where their opponents dont have training wheels.

[@drphdmd7064]

@@jasonmension3979 I would love to see a change to Moira that makes her more viable at higher ranks, but with their recent track record I don't have faith in them.

[@Bighoodiekid]

swear the training wheels can get you all the way up to masters 💀

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

​@@Bighoodiekid Because you can. There are people who backline ratted their way up to gm with moira one trick. This is really enabled by the fact that Kiriko existed back then, anything they did to shutdown your teams push kiriko suzu fucking denied that while you were ratting their kiriko, forcing her to engage in dueling a moira that can self heal on hit, throw a healing orb to herself or damage orb to chase kills faster.

[@jasonmension3979]

@@drphdmd7064 in order for that, they would have to remove her auto aim, I actually personally love everything about moira except her primary like her movement is so fun to use but unlike all other heros with fun movement, she has no skill shots or things to make the movement hard to use, leaving her movement as this brain dead, almost get out of jail free card with little to no risk, unlike genji or echo where their movement is an escape ot engage tool and to engage with the movement is a risk as you could fk up your shots which wastes half your kit and set up time while moira physically cant miss, making her ti boring for my liking but you add a good fun primary and I would be a moira main 😂

[@SolRise_yt]

Been t500 for a couple of seasons and specialized in only two to 3 tanks. Been fine until the support creep. Tank is being put on such a high standart of perfection that one single mistake can flip the fight. I wanna best a teamfight because i have put hours into a tank and learned its kit to the fullest, not because i pressed the H button and swapped to the right hero. Swapping should still be viable, but i wouldnt want to be "out skilled" by enemy tank pressing H and swapping to simething else.

[@lukenerdy]

Yeah, like I've been playing Doomfist more because he's fun for me and basically after one fight I'm forced to swap if I die once and its just annoying, I don't want to have to always swap because I want to have fun which can be hard in this game so me having to swap just to try and win the next team fight just doesn't feel good.

[@ollie2316]

all the people who are ok with how tank is right now, its because they just switch between playing orisa and playing zarya

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

@@ollie2316 Ironically thats what eskay was saying 20minutes into the podcast "hurr skill issue cuz you didn't swap" What if I told herto swap off lucio cuz it wasn't meta lol. Thats pretty much her argument at that point and it was incredibly shallow. Tanks want to play other characters, not be forced onto Orisa/Zarya because they can ignore the support bullshit 60% of the time and get popped instantly.

[@heiko2255]

May i Introduce you to 6v6 the suprerior format, where you could even make things like Hog/Zarya work. Compared to 5v5 where for example, Dva Vs Zarya is just a shitty unfun matchup where the dva probably has to swap. I miss 6v6, it had small balance issues but was 10x more fun than 5v5

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

No way y’all say it’s a tank issue and proceed to only name 2 tanks repeatedly

[@someguy9970]

Because those two tanks are the only ones that don't get bullied by supports lmfao. Support players are insane.

[@nightowl_dude]

finally ive been waiting for 13 days since the last video was out lets goo

[@LasertechStudios3142]

2:05:00 The most annoying thing about playing against Ana is how she can sleep you around corners due to its hitbox and ping interactions.

[@sonderbain]

Honestly, sleep dart feels like a semi truck hitting you a mile away sometimes.

[@ivanych6231]

​@@sonderbainit is. I compared it with a hanzo logs and... the arrows are much thinnier. So if you (for support mains) die to a hanzo, it's not lucky, you're just dogshit player.

[@zayodadong]

the problem isn't one role, it's the devs and their unwillingness to nerf things that are actually a problem to the game. Doesn't matter the role, they just want the easiest heroes to be the strongest and they don't care how unfun and unengaging that makes the core gameplay loop. They've been like that for years. "Everybody's wanted Hanzo to stop one shotting with log sized hitboxes since the game came out? Okay we'll nerf Widow then."

[@deadhelix]

I agree but I don’t think they nerfed widow because of ppl hated hanzo. the only person I saw ever complain about hanzo before widows nerf was Marblr. Everyone and their mother was yelling about widow after sojurn got the boot so they definitely listened to that. I’ve only seen an uprise in hanzo haters this season so if we speak out about him something can still happen

[@ashonline77]

The way to nerf hanzo is to make his arrow really small and only give value to really accurate players. If they take away the one shot he's gonna be terrible

[@LEGI43ON]

Back then after viral video of pov hanzo headshoting widow who's head was behind the corner they actually nerfed the size

[@deadhelix]

@@ashonline77 the problem though is that hanzo is able to 1 shot at long range and mid and close, and it gets easier to do so the closer you are, vs widow where someone being in your face is a big issue.

[@xythiera7255]

Widow is still broken af what you mean . Hanzo is so broken omg 😂 . If you dont burst down peopl as Hanzo you become compleatly usless . The times were slow consistent damage is a thing is long gone if you dont burst somebody down he gets insta full healed or dont even notice you shot him . Hanzo actuly needs skill to hit shots .

[@erikhendrickson59]

As good as Baptiste is right now, I still think Kiriko is the strongest Support at *_MOST_* Ranks. Her Swift Step allows for lower-ranked player to negate serious positioning mistakes and at higher ELO it allows for extremely aggressive *_intentional_* positioning that no other Hero is afforded. And all that without even mentioning Suzu~

[@jamesburnett3594]

No it's definitely Illari. She's destroying on the ladder right now with the highest winrate in the game across all ranks while also having a very high pick rate. She can simply stick a pylon around a corner with her whole team grouped up around it, dish out a bunch of damage, and it's very hard for many characters to deal with. Many characters are simply incapable of destroying the pylon. And if it doesn't get destroyed, her output is way too much. Kiriko is strong but she is not dominating the same way. She has weaknesses like heroes without easy head hitboxes, flying heroes, etc. Her tp takes more skill than it used to because the range is reduced and less consistent/fast. Yeah at lower ranks you can just tp to anyone and probably be safe or make it work. But you have to be a lot more careful at higher ranks over your positioning and who you tp to. There's a high skill ceiling to using it well, similarly to how there is with Tracer blinks. And you aren't going to be putting out the same kind of stats consistently on Kiriko with damage and healing. The main problem with her is suzu, which could be on a longer cooldown imo. But that alone is not making her op.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Illari is stronger because she just fuckin kills you, but Kiriko is a worse design. It is sooo easy to play Kiriko. Whenever I'm in danger, no I'm not. Whenever my team is in danger, no they're not. Meanwhile I'm throwing quarters in the kunai slot machine and fishing for jackpot dinks. I usually play other supports, and whenever I hop on Kiri, it's like why am I doing all this work on other supports when I can get the same results with my brain off on Kiri.

[@Bighoodiekid]

kiri’s winrate is the worst in most ranks tbh

[@jamesburnett3594]

@@user-et3xn2jm1u Kiri is better hero design than Illari. Her difficulty and effectiveness scales with skill. At low ranks you just existing is often enough and no one is good enough to kill you with all your cooldowns. So I understand that perspective but that's not what it's like everywhere. When you get to higher ranks, you have to be pretty on point to bring value greater than what some of the other good supports like Bap, Ana, Illari, etc. can offer. If you were to just healbot vs. an Ana or something, the Ana will put out more value over time if they are competent. Kiriko is cool design because her value comes from her mobility and the flexibility you have rather than the raw numbers. Tp also just has so many creative uses and potential. Compare that to Illari who's design is just to camp behind walls and shoot. Kiri enabled a diversity of compositions that made the game healthy. She's good, but not everyone can use her the way that gets the most value. Illari just slows the game down for everyone and only rewards a specific playstyle.

[@ZombieNinjaTurtle]

Not really, cause at low ranks your teammates all have shit positioning and are just afk on the objective so your swift step is basically useless and would only ever teleport you like 2m away. Kiri has a poor win rate, especially at low ranks where people can’t aim with her

[@xEmjey]

This is my most loved content in KZbin i watched almost every Podcast since the beginning Thank u SVB for making theese I really enjoy hearing the thoughts of really good and appriciated Player and content creator of the game

[@Hudsonskates]

I always watch these vods. I love this kind of content SVB keep it up pls.

[@Furious_Bananas]

the biggest issue i have with what karq was saying around 36:00 is that yes, some tanks can counterplay ults with cooldown abilities. It is very matchup dependent though. THe biggest problem with that, is that there is only ONE tank. so they should be able to do that. Other roles should have to play around tank cooldowns. But 3 supports can counter almost any ult in the game on cooldown. its a hero problem. and the way the heros where designed originally was around tank hate. Thats not even including sombras rework. If a team is running kiriko, bap, illari, brig, bastion, mei, sombra, ( especially sombra reworked), torb, or sym, and you are playing Tank, you stop playing tank. And if you are rolling as a tank, you will aways get some version of those heros combined just to specifically stop you from playing the game. But without fail your team also swaps to tank hate and niether tank has fun. Tank SHOULD be able to counter ults on cooldown. Supports and dps should have to keep track of 1 hero and be worried about it since there is only one.

[@Bornchad-dragoncock]

Its in my belief that there are 4 problem people in support Right now, Those being Bap,Illari,Ana and kiriko,. Those 4 make DPS And Especially Tank Really miserable, as in Bap Immo, Illaris Very High Damage Output, Ana Nade And Kiri Suzu, Lucio Is Very Balanced, Having Neither High Healing Nor High Damage But Makes up for it with mobility And Speed boost. Brigitte is Also Somewhat Balanced, She has Her Niches of being a dive killer But thats about it, as you dont really see her alot in poke or Brawl Zen is also balanced having Very high Damage but. Very low single target healing but Discord really needs work. Lifeweaver Could become a problem Maker as he has one of the highest Single Target Healing in the game And Massive Mobility and survivability. Mercy isnt bad by any means and is a very balanced support Moira is really balanced.

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

@@Bornchad-dragoncock Even if I talked in a dps perspective, if a genji wanted to dive a baptiste, he has to deal with 3 fucking hp bars. What fucking character, has 3 hp bars that rival a tank in terms of tankiness. None. Literally bap could be tankier than a tank in the right circumstances. Illari just being a better single target ashe/soldier hybrid is also illegal, try dueling an illari with pylon across the map as soldier/ashe, good fucking luck if she's not dumb. Ana is probably the highest skill ceiling out of all the supports if you want to duel her as a dive dps, tracer probably has the best time out of it, poke from mid range, try to bait nade and sleep then reengage, but fail the sleep dart bait and you're fucking goners. Otherwise dueling as hitscan good fucking luck when she's cross map away from you with no damage fall off whatsoever. Kiriko is whatever to duel tbh, unless they're godly in landing headshots she's not a threat to duel, just impossibly annoying to kill. Zen literally doesn't let half the tanks play at all, just by existing with his damage orb, I literally quit playing qp matches if I see a zen when all I want is to play Rein. So fun to hide behind a wall for 20s because zen instantly reapplies discord orb if I dared to peek him without my shield up for 1 nanosecond. Guess what, I lost that game following the advice of stupid support mains. "YoU sHoUlD jUsT hIdE"

[@Bornchad-dragoncock]

@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong Which is exactly why I Put Bap in the problem makers category along with illari and Kiriko, Ana on second thought needs to be very skilled to get away from divers, and I’ll give you the zen part ( playing Reinhardt against Zen Bastion is a Fuckin nightmare) Illari is just DPS in the wrong category seriously, she’s a better Ashe with a bullet hit box so massive it makes Roadhogs Dick look like a pencil and her healing pylon gives her the edge in every duel. Kirikos Suzu denies ults better than anything in the game ( Land 4 man shatter and poof they are all up like nothing happened) and her hit box is so small she can probably fit inside Genjis Bumhole it’s insane not to mention TP, above all that she lands headshots easier than hanzo.

[@Klyttorius]

So essentially, the new supports are like OG 1-shot Hog. OG Hog was actually quite balanced with his 1-shot, because it's a 2-shot. He's a slow fatso, and there were so many ways to counter him. But OG Hog was the most annoying thing to play against. So they gutted him. But they aren't going to gut the new supports who are debatably even more annoying to play against than OG Hog.

[@Bighoodiekid]

hell nah that one shot had to go

[@hambster9759]

​@@Bighoodiekiddisagree. They should have nerfed other parts of the kits. Like he is absolute garbage rn bc if this.

[@Bighoodiekid]

@@hambster9759 maybe make him into a dps? that’s the only solution i could think of to maybe justify giving him a one shot. it’s just flat out unfair to give a tank with his level of survivability an insta kill

[@Dr.Pelican-bw2zs]

Thank you for showing up for some of the debate despite your being sick Eskay, hope you get better soon!

[@timbombadil4046]

Love this series. Like when you get different perspectives but the devs should definitely take note as across all three they all come to the same conclusion but have unique nuance.

[@altokia2724]

Would be cool to have the tank, dps, and support guests come up with arguements and have a full, professional, 3-way debate about the state of certain characters/the roles in general, with the devs maybe fact checking and providing insights where necessary. Tbh, i can totally see that being sort of the final evolution of this format, maybe in person at an ow/blizz convention live. Way in the future, but could be cool to see

[@nufcjoker9057]

Im sick of seeing high elo players on n the debate , I would préfère hearing someone from the majority of the player base, we don’t get enough console player either because they are the majority of the player base by a far margin

[@toastfy]

⁠​⁠@@nufcjoker9057Why would anyone watch the podcast if a Bronze was giving their opinion?

[@nufcjoker9057]

@@toastfy that’s a legit question, I just don’t always want to hear top 500 gm side of the story .. because a lot of there pain and frustration doesn’t even applies to the maj of the player base , it would be interesting in my opinion to hear what most people are thinking that play the game every day but are not the top 0.1% of the player base , ideally it’s not a content creators so we don’t get bias fans , just my opinion doesn’t mean that I’m wrong or right it’s just my opinion no hate intended good day

[@Vastspartan]

@@nufcjoker9057 Have yeatle on

[@eyedontlose8836]

​@nufcjoker9057 go in ur lobby and ask your teammate in gamechat if that's the case

[@CanadianCat101]

One of the biggest pain points of Kiriko is her TP is unpunshable, same thing was people issue with sombra, Vastly different games but, Apex solved that, abilities that move you or teleports have cast times, if kiriko had a small 0.2-0.4 second cast time where she makes a hand motion to then TP, would make that backline TP strat having to take brain power instead of instant BAM gone, but then would that make her feel bad? Maybe. Same as Immortalities, what if all immorts were all just high damage reductions instead? But that also might be bad because then would it feel bad to Suzu and have someone be burst to death? Or immort field and have everyone die? But it would solve the issue.

[@endless_del]

there is a tp cast time. i dont remember the number, but it was nerfed a couple seasons ago (not the cast time but when the i-frames start) and since then i've died during tp a lot more frequently (every so often vs never). i personally think kiri tp is fine because it has a range and it's entirely team dependant, unlike translocator which can be placed anywhere and has no range. i play a shit ton of kiri and can confidently say that suzu needs looked at before you touch any other part of her kit. it is WAY too strong of an ability.

[@ToniBallheadKuusikorpi]

kirko tp does have cast time tho

[@charlestothe]

Bro you’re listerally describing something that’s in the game. She does prayer hands

[@ckamo10]

she dos have a cast time, when she puts her hands together that's her cast time. I died many times when I was on very low hp and I tried to tp

[@CanadianCat101]

@@ToniBallheadKuusikorpi a very short one with no concise wind up

[@danielj6897]

Always a good listen! Fun crew today

[@UltiNateum]

Here we go boys!

[@PrometheusXV]

On KarQ's thoughts on dealing with a Mercy pocket around 1:08:00. Yes, of course you shouldn't expect to win a 1v2 as an Ashe without a pocket against an Ashe with a pocket. The issue is the Mercy can theoretically pocket that Ashe infinitely. She has no resource to truly manage. She has no "forced" decision making. If her other support can keep the team alive, she has absolutely 0 need to ever stop pocketing that Ashe. If you can't get a pocket yourself, or can't mind control your team to coordinate with you, you are just permanently fighting an uphill battle now because 2 players on the enemy team have managed to pull off the easiest coordination in the game. And if you do somehow manage to win the duel, the Mercy just rezzes the Ashe and you're back to square one. The input necessary to win that engagement is disproportionate, and is more likely than not going to result in players just arguing with their teams in many instances because one person wants a pocket, and some genius says "Well just kill the Mercy", as if she isn't standing behind two dimensional barriers half a planet away damage boosting and rezzing for free. One engagement requires significantly more skill than the other, and I assure you it is NOT the Mercy's.

[@xvcynical5701]

Probably the best description of fighting a pocket I've ever read

[@jacobkelly1653]

Playing tank feels like i can do everything right, have nothing happen, and then the rest of the community says i should feel good about it because i played it right, but i cant feel good or have fun if i just die and lose. It gets so boring

[@Vastspartan]

I'm not allowed to make plays as a Tank. I am now required to make space, bait out cooldowns and take all the bullshit these fucking little squishies cant.

[@VesperEm]

Would love to see yall discuss the spilo reworks on the pod, feel like that could be a really great episode

[@butterzzz13]

This was an amazingly conducive conversation.

[@godzillaenthusiast9687]

Putting Bogur on here is fucking hilarious to me lol hoping he acts as a midigator from his experience on both sides

[@J.D.191]

We need a tank vs support debate 2 support vs 2 tank players

[@ravenwilson6410]

That’s OW1 we are in OW2 now 2 supports and 1 tank should work lmao

[@vopcracker3193]

One year into Overwatch 2 and 5v5 has utterly failed in making the game more engaging to play. Supports buffed at the expense of Tanks has made the game so much more one-dimensional, to the point that counterpicking is NECESSARY to win rather than a unique feature of the game that still required some sort of gamesense to build upon. Every role thinks they are perfectly balanced despite the obvious fact that every role save for Support feels underdeveloped in a 5v5 environment due to the copy-paste nature of the game as a glorified OW1 shop update. 6v6 would solve ALL issues currently plaguing the game, especially since the strong frontline between two Tanks would make effective much more effectively and display immediate value compared to the more deathmatchy feel of Overwatch 2.

[@ravenwilson6410]

@@vopcracker3193 nigga idc anymore I don’t want your long ass speech if the devs and balance won’t listen what makes you think I will

[@daringiconoclast6547]

Big impact = big cool downs. That's all that needs to happen. Like if suzu had a huge cool down like lamp (maybe you can use it for lesser effects more often but if you save it 30 seconds it gets the full effect it currently has). Illari healbulb probably should have less range and maybe not Regen health (then it might be ok to have a smaller cool down depending on how much you reduce the range)

[@DORF-sz2zn]

havent finished yet, but an issue i see in all this as a tank player is, I have to swap constantly and get countered by the enemy supports cc or other abilities. however the adjacent is not the same, supports never have to switch to get value. all tanks are forced into playing orisa/zarya in this current meta and cannot play the rest of the roster, which is unfun, hog and winstion are entirely out, and the rest of the tanks do not provide enough value to compete with the top 2 tanks right now, i contribute a lot of this to the interacts zarya and orisa have with supports vs the rest of the tanks in the game

[@liluzii2339]

They didn’t talk about how anyone with a teleport or fade that gets a status effect on them like sun, ash bomb, most sticky bombs, junker Queen knife, and etc can just use that quick 6 second cooldown ability and cleanse the effect. We can argue that reaper might need it and maybe even Moria but Kiriko definitely doesn’t need it. This would make her have to use cleanse more selfishly and she could still die if she teleported away with one of the previous types of damage on her. Makes it much more fair for other players when fighting kiriko cause you can force suzu faster and she can die easier

[@ZombieNinjaTurtle]

That’s a really good idea !

[@liluzii2339]

@@ZombieNinjaTurtle Thnx bro! 🙌🏾

[@jbeers8408]

My main problem with illari's ult is that it is better than most DPS ults. And it is easy to land compared to other ults that can team wipe.

[@princekelly3021]

Ok now…these drug addict induced takes about supports are crazy. It’s getting out of hand…how many huffs did it take you to think that illari ult is more powerful then an ult like junk tire? Or mei freeze? Or echo copy? Illaris ult can get eaten, cleansed, and can’t go through shields, and it needs to have dmg complied to actually explode

[@TheRealKush420]

You must be smoking some good shit LMFAOOOOOOOO…. Dva’s DM, Sigma grasp, Shields, That spear spin, cleanse, Trans(Zen ult), Fade, TP, Zarya bubbles, natural cover, and just spreading out from your team…all counter the ult. Seek rehab….

[@zay7537]

See what I don’t like about the beginning of this debate is that they are so close but so far off. Like at 43ish mins Emii is saying that the supports are doing so much with close to zero downside to them but doesn’t acknowledge that, that in itself is the issue! For example zen he does high damage but in turn his movement is limited. But kiriko for example has high movement the smallest hitbox and can two hit any 200 hp character from any distance with ZERO downside. As a game every time a new support character comes out they are only getting things that buff support with zero downside like illari she places her turret off cooldown and does 75 hp a shot with movement and high healing, Where’s the downside to her…. Exactly there’s none and that’s the problem with support the downsides to characters are slowly disappearing and they are starting to become better dps

[@jzimmermann7]

Support players concept of what is overpowered vs underpowered is so delusional. They can never accept the support role being truly balanced. They always need things to be overtuned to feel satisfied.

[@gamist8166]

I like that svb tried to reintroduce eskays thought of massive hitbox with illari. Ashe feels inferior to her in hitscan potential, and that's insane. I think bogur treating it as skill issue comes from the tank/support perspective insteada dps

[@ClaraBennett]

1:01:22 While it’s true that occupying the attention of both supports for an extended period of time can be really valuable when timed correctly, that value is really challenging to directly perceive. I do that kind of thing a lot with Moira, and I think it’s actually easier to perceive the value because I’m doing it with a low-mechanical-skill hero, so it’s easier for me to keep an ear out and watch the killfeed and see all the enemies that are dying because I bottled up both of the enemy supports in a small room and am not letting them out. A lot of the actual tanks that can get value this way require a lot more attention onto mechanics and probably wouldn’t be able to perceive that value so easily. A lot of people have been saying stuff like that tanks should get resistance against all negative status effects, not just sleep and knockbacks. I liked that idea at first, but now I’m worried that that would simply make tanks feel uninteractable. So, maybe instead the tanks could get some more-visible benefit for absorbing those negative effects, like maybe a little bit of overhealth or something. That way, the counterplay options are still there and can be effective in the right circumstances, but there would be more of a cost to using spamming CC on the tank. It wouldn’t have made a difference for that Doomfist clip since they didn’t actually land any negative status effects onto him, but it would have in SVB’s Zarya clip. Given that the need to force out abilities seems like a necessary consequence of Overwatch’s general design, I feel like making that value feel more direct could ease a lot of the friction. Turn something that can be fairly passive, low-visibility value (absorbing abilities and surviving, so that teammates can then attack unimpeded) into a tool that can be used more actively for yourself. _Edit:_ I really don’t know how the game could better reinforce the value of tying up all of the enemy team’s healing resources, but it would be really cool if they could figure that out somehow. 1:02:44 I think SVB is right that “it’s a feeling thing”, and tank value has always been the most challenging to consistently perceive. It’s part of the reason that I stopped playing tank, because I felt like I needed to be on my game and playing well to even tell if I was playing well, if that makes sense? When I wasn’t playing well, it was hard to see where I was going wrong, because if I’d been able to perceive where I was losing value I probably wouldn’t have been losing it there.

[@michaelcidboy6787]

About the Moira utility, I kind of had a thought about her fade. She was the doctor that fixed Reapers body and gave him powers to fade in and out and she can obviously do it herself. So, how bout we give her a potion that she can throw on her teammates to give them fade potential or she can use it herself. The fade right now in her kit I think is broken and why a lot of lower elo players struggle against her in the first place so why not instead of an instant transmission (sorry for DBZ reference.) we make it a potion or elixir while also providing utility and ability to support her teammates other than just heal.

[@lunar3055]

The thing that is making supports so strong is the utility they provide being so strong. A good example is discord orb. It’s just way to strong for 5v5 and needs a nerf.

[@lucan465]

All of these problems can lead back to changing to 5v5 format though…

[@heiko2255]

Support players dont care about that, they have the OP heroes right now so the game is apparently better. If Kiri didnt have Invul and a 35m tp on a 8s CD and 110 Headshot damage If Illari didnt have a healing turret, again 110 Headshot damage and a huge DPS Ult If Weaver didnt have Invulnerability Pull, a huge 100 HP overhealth tree and a pedal that can save him and his teammates from things like grav or other ults then it would look very different, then Supps would complain about 5v5 and it not being fun. Hell, i even see DPS players complain about it, Blizzard should just try 6v6 again, i remember people having passion for this game and being hyped to play, i dont see any of that in 5v5, its just that soulless.

[@TheRealKush420]

Why isn’t ML7 here?!? 🤨🤨🤨

[@PurpleMoon799]

i was wondering too i would love to hear his takes

[@daintyonion]

“I’m dying” 😭😭

[@Samuraithekid]

When SVB said "taste the sunrise! What's the su.... aaaaaah!" I died laughing

[@fireice5443]

*Essay warning.* I understand that not every hero is supposed to have the same effectiveness in every situation. I also understand that supports should 100% be able to hold their own in situations where they can be considered a "free pick". The main issue a huge amount of people have is about "support" heroes having completely overpowered parts in their kits, like Suzu, Immortality field (*abilities* that can full counter *Ultimates*) and Nade, or having insane dps, like Illari and Kiriko shots. A very easy fix for the time being is raising the cooldowns on these abilities so they can be used once per fight in average ranks, so per 20-30 seconds or something. It sounds crazy but being able to have 2 immortalities in 1 fight is absolutely absurd. This doesn't mean using an immortality ability from 1 hero twice but also includes having one immortality ability usage from two different heroes. Maybe have an internal cooldown before a target can be affected by a second immortality ability (Let's say you get Suzu'd, you can be in an Immortality field or Lifegrip, but the immortality effect bypasses your character [with the pull effect still going through for lifegrip] for an internal cooldown of 7 seconds. After the 7 seconds, the effects of immortality can be applicable to you again). I personally very much dislike any abilities that can make punishable mistakes unpunishable (Life weavers grasp included). I understand there is some skill to timing it, but being able to give life two times in one fight is so unfair. To better balance these abilities, in my opinion, please get rid of the immortality effect and keep the secondary effects. Suzu = cleanse effects, Lifegrip = reposition, Biotic nade (Negative Immortality: Prevents you to get healed the same way Immortality prevents you to take damage.) effect = reduces heals buy 40% to 70% for a duration of time (let's just say 4-6 seconds) OR lower anti-heal duration/ raise heal boost duration + nerf heal boost from 50% to 30% so it's used more defensively most of the time since an offensive use would be a hard commit and higher risk higher reward (the window to focus the anti-naded target is super small), and this all has more of a "support" feel to it. You can replace Immortality fields effect with an aoe heal which spray heals within the fields range for 3 seconds 70-30 hp/sec depending how close you are to the center + 75 hp/sec overtime of 3 seconds after, and if you have a status effect it cleanses and heals 150 over 5 seconds. This is a random idea I just thought up but my point is, having abilities with mechanics like this is a whole lot more engaging than the simple but extremely effective condition of Immortality. I know this may be an unpopular opinion but I sincerely disagree with the idea of a "support" hero supporting by pressuring to kill or straight up killing targets. Take Kiriko for example, being able to flank, and threaten/get a kill, AND LEAVE, maybe even having an easier time doing so when compared to flank heroes such as tracer or sombra would (Ex. Time to kill = 2 headshots or 1 headshot + bodyshot + melee. Time to kill may be similar to those dps heroes but the simplicity of tapping a few times vs tracking and hitting multiple headshots from super close range is not proportionate in terms of ease of execution AND having an infinitely easier disengagement since pathing is not a concern with wall-phasing teleportation). Then you have Illari, who can out DPS a DPS character at HIS OWN (old 35 meters) range?! (Cassidy). Supports are more than welcome to be able to defend themselves but being able to 2 headshot tap kill most of the overwatch roster is oppressively offensive and doesn't fit as a "defense" at all. I don't care that a Support hero can 3 shot bodyshot any 200 HP target, like Illari (75 body shot damage. Yes she 2 bodyshot taps tracer), I just don't think it's fair that a support can do so much burst damage, sure the rate of fire is slow but really? 112.5 x 2 in 2 seconds (You can have a charged shot, see a target, get a headshot and wait for next shot and fire, which all takes around 2 seconds) At range?? Solution: Kiriko- Buff Kunai bodyshot damage to 55 and make the headshot multiplier 1.8 so a headshot does 99. Baptiste- Nerf Bullet damage to 24. Etc. Ofc I haven't tested any of this but for anyone who was patient and interested enough to read all this, I'm sure you would enjoy being able to be a lot more engaged in these kinds of chnages, where active thinking becomes more rewarding and the difference is not too much and just enough so that most people can enjoy it. They can be casual players who don't care about these issues nearly as much as some of us do, or, they can be people who really want to see good balancing and the end of frustrating aspects of the game, be it abilities or number tuning for damage, health, cooldowns, etc. I've gone on for like half an hour so I'll stop here, but I just wanted to get a point across from what I've seen and what I've been through, which is: that most people don't enjoy anything in a game that can be seen as oppressive or frustrating to deal with. 2017 player. I've been a bronze, a silver, a gold, a plat, a diamond, a masters, a grandmaster, and I am a top 500 player. I felt what every environment of Overwatch feels like, so I feel what you guys feel. I never forgot that I am a bronze player or that I am a hardstuck plat, and I hope I don't seem like I'm implying I know more than anyone else, I've just been through it all and wanted to say all this to show where I'm at in terms of my understanding of the state of the game. This is all my opinion and my current view. Wish everyone the best.

[@Vastspartan]

Increasing the cooldown isn't the problem. It's removing some of the aspects of the cooldown. Specific cooldowns should not do three things at once. Suzu should not have immortality. Lamp should not have a set health permanently when attacking someone. Suzu should be a cleanse and it heals. Lamp should be damage mitigation. Why the fuck does one cooldown beat a fucking ultimate.

[@uhoh6763]

​​@@VastspartanI think he meant if they were to raise the CDs today and put a CD to prevent Immort chaining, it would bring immediate improvement, at least in lower/mid ranks. You summed up his points well with "shouldn't have 3 effects stacked". I 100% agree with him that invulnerability doesn't belong in the game. It's pretty stupid

[@GWBDD]

57:00 What is the clip they are talking about?

[@GriFFonRec4]

Brig packs in general need to be SUPER visible IMO. They are basically a ranged mercy beam for 2 seconds that she can stack the time. I think if we got a visual indicator when she packs someone like a purple health bar overlaying the opponents health or something, then we'd see what's going on. Like if I attack someone and they have 150 health and Brig packs them twice and their entire health bar turns purple and starts ticking back (somehow still showing their actual health underneath, IDK I'm not a graphic designer) then I could make the decision to just attack someone else since the game is telling me that guy is unkillable. The problem is we can't tell they are unkillable until we pop more CDs and don't see their health going down, and understand "oh, they got packed." Same with Lucio heals and Brig rally, there needs to be better indicators that they are under these effects. I should know as the enemy team exactly when Lucio pops amp and when Brig gets a rally off even when I'm not looking at those characters. Life Weaver too actually. Make it way easier to see those buds landing on a person I'm fighting so I can give it up without wasting my resources.

[@Jae_JETT]

Id like to take a second to point out how Eskay stated that the issues tank players are having are either a "Skill issue" or tank choice issue, however later she admitted that heroes like Life weaver being able to pull heroes from ultimate's like Zarya and Sigma is frustrating. This is one of many examples of why playing tank is annoying right now. These abilities are countering our ultimate's. She also stated how she has no issues playing the two strongest tanks as of now. I wish they dove deeper into this but no one brought it up.

[@YunethAlwis]

I agree, Eskay brought up the two most unfun BUT necessary tanks to play if you can't continue as tank or 'skill issue', which isn't a solution to tanking! Like I would like to use the rest of the heroes too but they are the ones that can't play against these two tanks that they kept bringing up

[@paulahrens581]

Essays a low level troll

[@dire3648]

39:00 KarQ Just pointed out the biggest problem with supports. "I cant do anything to the enemy team" YOUR A SUPPORT you support your team so they can do things to the other team. You shouldnt be able to solo most of the dps roster with ease. Thats not supporting your team thats being another dps.

[@heiko2255]

In 5v5 the support players got this idea that they should deal similar damage to DPS, no? Youre a SUPPORT, sure youre allowed to do some damage, but 2 tapping 70% of the Heroes with Illari and Kiriko should not be a thing I mean even Bap on release did lots of damage, but atleast it wasnt 2 taps. I would love for 6v6 to come back so that we can atleast compete with these OP supports. (6v6 was always better than 5v5 anyways)

[@eightchinfolds5226]

Someone's probably already come up with this idea, but I feel like suzu might be less obnoxious if it weren't a projectile. Like its a small aoe around kiriko. Then kiriko has to make a decision: does she use her tp and suzu to save someone else and risk losing her escape ability? Also, it makes it more of a risk to suzu anyone, as she now has to put herself in the line of fire.

[@zombieskittlesgaming]

This conversation is so refreshing after listening to the tank debate. That one was a bit unhinged.

[@cyviraceramirez6808]

as a diamond support player, i greatly agree that most support players are very op, illari can team kill easily if they have very good aim, good LW player outheals everyone, and if dps aren't carrying, supports step-up all the time when the damage is lacking..

[@alfonsovelazquez9565]

I only disagree with lifeweaver. Outdamaging his heal is not hard

[@TheDevos1]

I’m diamond support too, if DPS is trash, then you’re most likely losing I can’t lie. Like yes illari can step up, but somebody has to pick up the healing for being out damaged.

[@AngrySecs]

​@@TheDevos1illaris whole thing is being able to just throw her pylon and essentially not worry about healing anyway. The pylon can pick up that slack.

[@gamabussy]

Eskay with the "skill issue!"

[@bm4604]

It was nice having Bogurs more seasoned takes to help keep the convo on track around what the actual problem is. That being that later added support heroes weren't really properly designed with tradeoffs and counterplay mechanics their kit. A lot of newer supports like say life Weaver, when they were designing them they clearly never gave much thought to how the person on the other end would be able to react to or outplay his abilities. For example, if say a dive tank dives higher ground to kill a Hanzo. As the tank player, even if you are fully aware and can predict exactly when the Life Weaver gonna grip the Hanzo, there's atill really nothing you can do about it. If the life Weaver wants to bail out his Hanzo he can and will every time. So as the person on the receiving end of having your offensive play neutralized your left with only 2 options that aren't really options. You can either hard focus Weaver each fight to make him play spawn simulator, so you're finally allowed to kill other players. Or you have to orient all of your offensive plays that game around the existence of pull and baiting it out and tracking its cooldown every fight. We strayed too far from the old days, where if you're diving a target, you can outplay the supports by adjusting your play mid fight. In the old days you could just place your bubble more purposely in a spot where it stands better chance of cutting Anna line of sight and as the Anna you had to counterplay that by looking for a better angle or breaking bubble faster, the counterplaying went both ways in a more fair way. If they keep designing ability interactions like this with no thought to counterplay mechanics, then they are going to break this game and probably not even know why.

[@Triforcebro]

Finally! Now working overtime is going to fly by.

[@shaheedroylance]

Ik she's sick & I feel bad.. but wish we heard more from eskay, I love her takes & ways she explains stuff.. hope she's feeling better soon 🥺🙏

[@vendetasebastian8867]

What the Bogur doing tho? I love how Emi blames everything on the DPS role, and of course support players love 5v5, when they have the most to benefit from it. Not to mention the support players whining support is weak and oppressed, and funnier how they nerfed DPS role because dmg boost exist, and devs don't want to properly nerf supports. KarQ defending and shilling for the support role never fails. Can't deal with support mains anymore.

[@artyedmond8972]

I was exclusively support player since ow2 came out. About a month ago I started playing other roles, and support is pretty OP. I feel like I have more impact on support than anything else. Least impact on dps. And moderate impact on tank depending on my supports.

[@prateek9386]

Took some time but it's finally here 🙌