The Tedious Misogynoir of Black Gay Men and Masculine Presenting People

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[@ForHarriet619]

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[@TheElijahJoy]

I’m sorry you experienced that

[@JamieBleu]

Anyone can be the enemy of progress because education on feminism and lgbt issues is low and therefore empathy is low. The oppressed will oppress each other. The number of people who are really "woke" and are trying to deconstruct the stereotypes and systems that have been created for us in this patriarchy are EXTREMELY LOW. I always tell myself that the chance that a woman/gay man or fem presenting person is also homophobic and misogynistic to their own selves is 50/50 so that I don't get my hopes up. I wouldn't be surprised if the real stats were worse.

[@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526]

"masculine presenting AMAB" um you mean cis men. Non-binary is not an option. Why are we still talking about this, it's getting tired.

[@sistayiddishkeitofficial5833]

@@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526 Nope, cis men are cis men. Nonbinary folks are exactly who they say they are.

[@Lemondoor]

@@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526 Well not all cis men are "masculine presenting". That's why she said it that way.

[@t_ylr]

Mmm yeah as a black gay manl I agree with this. Every once in a while I'll talk to another gay man and think, "if gay ppl weren't marginalized you'd be a republican" lol. It's weird growing up as a femme presenting man cause you almost see things like male privilege from both sides. You only get some of it. You don't get the whole thing. Those kinds of experience can make you think you're more progressive than you actually are. Every amab person, no matter how sissy you are or how many female friends you have, needs to deconstruct and reflect on the patriarchal ideas we absorb from society.

[@Heyu7her3]

LOL @ Republican... well... that's most people tbh. Even Democrats 👀

[@channiballecter]

🎯‼️👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@NeasTube]

Hence the issue with conflating self concept/gender identity with sex.

[@nbucwa6621]

@@NeasTube no that's the issue with assuming socialization and social privilege become a zero sum because of your identity, sexuality or gender.

[@priusdriver596]

perfectly said!!!

[@Daydreamroses]

these comments lead me to the conclusion that nobody really cares about the plight of black women besides other black women lol. we cant really talk about our plights because we are called out our name by literally every other group when we do. its like everyone bands together to gaslight our experiences while in the same breath quoting that one malcolm x line. . its very wild and extremely disheartening. i wish we could have these nuanced convos without peoples bigotry jumping out.

[@chayo4537]

Damn right!

[@MomsMableyMedia]

Alllll of this!!!!!!

[@visionsofablackherstorian]

They asked "what do we bring to the table besides our beauty" in a society that constantly tells black women how uglee and undesirable we are. Misogynoir is dripped in contradictions to avoid saying they are JEALOUS! And many of us don't believe they are jealous, because society made us think low of ourselves.

[@hild-demongoddess7498]

THIS!!!! one thing I’ve learned is that: ALOT of individuals are jelous of black women. ALOT. A lot of the hatred we face is jealousy plain and simple.

[@starcherry6814]

Don't engage in it sister Men who use this argument do not see women as human beings I ignore their comments for my sanity

[@TheLily97232]

They forget they're men too until it's time to shit on women. Some gay men have such stereotypical views of women it's insane. Same for trans women.......

[@jamesbaxter222]

Funky dineva does this a lot!!! It’s so embarrassing because I feel like most of his viewers are black women.

[@priceccp]

Absolutely 💯

[@mstaylor1073]

This is such a nuanced thing I've had some very upsetting interactions with gay black men I thought to be allies because of the ways we were both marginalized. Had to learn the hard way what they really thought of me.

[@yoyodre]

I think they both share the blame. People terrorizing you is unacceptable, but it's not an excuse to punch down.

[@olive6679]

A lot of black lesbians aren't allies bc they want to be pimps/players.

[@tamarapowell8982]

@@yoyodre boy bye 🙄

[@marie-francoiset9402]

@@yoyodre punch down how? if they are black gay *men* participating in tearing down bw, since we are in a patriarchal society the gay males are the ones punching down. I see this is challenging the notion that being gay means someone is always the victim. But they can perpetrators too.

[@UPPITYUNICORN]

I deleted club house YEARS ago... came to the same conclusion you did. Great neurodivergent minds think alike. BWE is RIFE with people who target black women as an audience for money but truly see them as inferior, misogynoir reigns and it only takes pissing these content creators off for their colorism and misogyny to show up as "a read" of someone they dislike.

[@alexandrean6657]

Im glad someone is calling this out…because too often times we talk about the misogyny that comes from cis het men, and gay men get to slide under the radar when they are just as misogynistic. And I’m not letting trans men off the hook either because some of them are equally as bad.

[@Dave102693]

Forreals! They on some next level conservativism and pickmedom with they bullshit

[@hikariluanGC]

As a white femme gay man who watches your content in hopes of understanding the black women struggles a bit better while trying to combat racism (my own issues and the world’s), it does get under my skin when I perceive how misogynistic and racist gay men in general allows themselves to be, including people surrounding them. Thanks for calling it out, it helps out with me understanding the nuances of it while trying to navigate these things.

[@kendrajones9708]

❤❤❤

[@queerlybelovdd]

this is always a necessary conversation and i appreciate your input, as a femme presenting non-binary black person. sometimes people get way too comfortable with sharing issues with black womxn, but don't put in the work to unpack their own misogynoir. i would say it's worse getting it from a queer mxn because you're expecting something different and then getting the same old toxic bs. thank you for sharing❤

[@whatlee8671]

This is such an important topic! As a bisexual cis gendered black and Mexican male, I often point out how mysoginsioc gay men can be!

[@BlimpCityFeeder]

Bisexual cis gendered?? That's not an oxymoron?

[@CrystalMonds]

​@@BlimpCityFeeder ? Bisexual = attracted to 2 or more genders. Cis = identifying as the sex they were born with, in this case, male.

[@LadyMarie599]

@@BlimpCityFeeder it’s simple he likes both sexes and he is born male

[@Worthless1010]

​@@BlimpCityFeeder bisexual meaning attraction to both genders and cis gendered meaning identifying with your sex assigned at birth

[@yoyodre]

​@@BlimpCityFeederI think you could've looked that up

[@domraonix]

Even as a black trans woman, gay men have shown time and time again that their interest ultimately is on upholding patriarchy and perpetuating the male gaze at the expense of their trans sisters. The LGBTQIA community has serious deep rooted issues with colorism, fatphobia and misogynoir and I feel its often overlooked because its done on a micro scale. Excellent point!

[@kukachoo42]

yup

[@AndreTJones]

It’s nuts. I’m gay cis male presenting and I see these butch queens acting a whole as* . For a lot of them, if you’re not sickening you’re late and that’s weird. Marginalize communities, and yes gay men, can perpetuate misogynoir and even transphobia. It’s weird and late.

[@razmiddle9410]

It's specifically gay men where this is the biggest problem, right? Not LGBTQIA in general. Gay men seem to be much more blunt about their sexual preferences and how race, fitness level, and performing gender roles plays a huge role in one's sexual marketplace value.

[@Dave102693]

@@razmiddle9410 that and white cis lesbians.

[@nbucwa6621]

@@razmiddle9410 Its because of he closeness to privilege. The closer they are, the easier it is to believe that that could be you with just the removal of one small barrier. Skin colour, race, gender, sexual orientation all play a role in how close or how far someone can be to being "the master". Its the same argument that a lot of straight black men don't want to eradicate inequality but just wish they were the ones benefitting from it. Same reason some people don't want to get rid of wealth inequality, they just want to be the ones rich enough to step on the poor.

[@artis_1001]

I just feel like anybody can perpetuate misogynoir. Nobody is safe.

[@user-vf3fz7qv6v]

💯 it’s really insidious when the call comes from inside the house (I.e. other black women). Lots of pickmes trying to conform to white patriarchy

[@TubularOfficial]

We just love Kim cause you’re Mother like…!!

[@fallonrishiva7841]

I think it's because, we have all being raised in the patriarchy and the patriarchy touches every aspect of our lives. So any area where we haven't being taught a better way we're gonna default to supporting the patriarchy which is anti-woman/non-binary. And its tiring to constantly be vigilant for our own blind spots, so something always slips through.

[@dlw1221]

Nobody

[@matthewramsay1190]

Exactly. Misogyny can come from gay men. Homophobia can come from black women. Hopefully we can continue to be allies despite the bad apples.

[@abenagyampo]

I also find it weird how we have all of these conversations about respecting queer men/AMABs and their manhood, but then when it’s time for them to be misogynistic, or put their hands on a woman, or insert themselves into women’s business we are expected to give them a pass because they’re “basically one of the girls”. They can’t have both.

[@yoyodre]

Speaking for myself, "women's business" is brought up more frequently when women don't want to be held accountable for harmful POVs than issues where women have the most or only vested interest in a situation.

[@olive6679]

This is why I stopped being an ally. I had a gay male friend defend r kelly bc black girls are fast.

[@tamarapowell8982]

@@yoyodre it doesn’t matter you’re still not a biological women and there are still things you can and can’t do and boundaries you still can’t cross as a biological man when it pertains to women!

[@jmaldo92]

​@@olive6679 that was one person's opinion. They do not speak for all of the gay male community. That's like a white woman saying she was an ally until a Black man sexually assaulted her.

[@Rennie212]

@@olive6679so your respect for queer people stopped because you knew one gay man with terrible views?

[@gayliljaehyun]

i’m a lesbian. the thing i find annoying about gay men in general is their willingness to disregard other lgbtq+ people because many of them have prioritized having a place as close to the cishet world as possible. it’s the way many “gay icons” are straight white women and actual queer creatives are ignored to promote their work instead that’s a prime example.

[@ddneq677]

This! 👆🏽

[@aliviablount]

This is a really good point. As a person who went to arts school for a large majority of my life the most anti-black women rhetoric comes from gay men who pick apart the black female aesthetic and generally see it as ugly. I have also heard this sentiment echoed among gay black men who say the same thing, but they don’t have another community to turn to besides anti-black gay men mostly white who hate their looks but love their butts 🤔🫤😐

[@FabalociousDee]

The weird thing is, they'll go in about how ugly our aesthetic is supposed to be...yet adopt so many of our mannerisms, especially those from the Black American community. It's just...there are so many layers to this.

[@aliviablount]

@@FabalociousDee so many layers. I don’t know what this country would be if is wasn’t for black women being the butt of every joke. Like what would they talk about?

[@waymilky442]

@@FabalociousDee Again homophobic.

[@FabalociousDee]

@@waymilky442 It's homohobic to mention how the queer community has a nidpgynoir problem?

[@chayo4537]

Kpop is nothing but Asian men and women cosplaying as black women while black men cosign it and go overseas to be cheerleaders for Asian men who could pass as their bxtchhh

[@michaelchancley1617]

OMG, I think you could have gone in so much more with this topic!!! Can we talk about how misogynistic, anti-Black stans are weaponize being pro-Black woman when it comes to defending their faves? Like they will perpetuate misogynoir, transphobia, colorism, body shaming, etc., then appropriate social justice language in their Stan debates.

[@tamarapowell8982]

A word!

[@tamarapowell8982]

Oh and don’t forget ableism

[@guyafrica7894]

Yes they do it so much

[@chayo4537]

kpop is an example... just a bunch of Asian men and women cosplaying as black women and black men cosigning it going overseas to be groupies for Asian men who could pass as their bitch

[@adaku75]

The beautiful while simultaneous horrific reality of being a black woman is that we are so powerful, that if you attach yourself to us in anyway, you benefit from it. Therefore, they can benefit from pretending to be an ally or from openly abusing us. And because we don't have many genuine allies, most can get away with it without consequences.

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

All energy vampires.

[@chayo4537]

You guys are absolutely right and THEY know it! 💯🎯

[@marie-francoiset9402]

bw could stop jumping up and defending every marginalized community and focus on ourselves. maybe it's time to fall back and focus on ourselves

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

@@marie-francoiset9402 You're right. BP do it far too often, but BW most of all. Even when BW are reluctant to do so, there's subtle and not so subtle pressure to stan for others.

[@jjaredzz]

Yes so many black gay men think their queerness gives them a get out of jail free card for misogyny and misogynior. Will disguise their misogyny as well meaning critiques when it’s not there at all.

[@WilliamsPinch]

Well, duh. Black women have been saying this and have been getting called phobic for years. Especially when I said this about a trans woman in one of Kim’s comment sections. 😏

[@health_is_wealth333]

Hi! I said something to this effect on one of your IG posts, about how gay men are still men and some of them may uphold misogynic ideals ingrained in their being. I noticed this dynamic as a child(between gay men and black women) and I was always offended but didn't know that what I was witnessing or experiencing was misogynoir. Everyone is so nasty to black women but then emulates our swag, our style, and our grace, how sway?

[@beemocha]

Funky Dineva has entered the chat..

[@dr.100purrscent5]

Bless your Soul. You said a lot that needed to be said. Black Women have had to carry, supress, survive, and endure a great deal since the beginning of Humankind... especially since the Dawn of Patriarchy. Patriarchy the Fraternal Twin of Colonization and they are the Golden Sons of Narcissism. It is the root cause of many pains, ailments, and mental disorders. Enforcing competition where there is no race to be won. Promoting invasion over compassion and respect, in efforts to renegotiate enslavement of the mind, body, and spirit. Black Women as a Collective have given a True Heart, Hug, Hand, and Hot Plate of Comfort to every group who felt an inch of the Patriarchial Lash yet we wait for anyone to raise their hand and voice to advocate for our protection and preservation of safe spaces. To no avail only we show up for ourselves, and still get bullied by new oppressors (some of which we once advocated for so they could be safe too). Patriarchy was never of Nature, never organic. It is the original Synthenic Modification, and we are living in a World infested with its madness. We are all a result of the historical pain it has caused. Trying to find a way to find in a simulation not of our own full manifestation but of someone/something else's. Im not hating on anyone finding their Peace differently than how I have come to find my own. However, if you feel the urge to invade the space, safety, and resources of someone (especially those who have suffered) you are NOT AT PEACE but AT WAR WITHIN YOURSELF. Therefore, you literally need to take that Battle up with your own Higher Consciousness because that is a Battle that Black Women CAN NOT fight for you. Infinite Love and Gratitude ...for those who can recieve it 🙏🏾💗

[@nameisamine]

Gay men can be extremely condescending and misogynistic towards women. I’ve seen it too many times to count. Nobody should get a pass.

[@albertl.cruztoro3050]

Sometimes lgbtq+ peoples forget that we can also perpetuate and act in ways that are harmful, violent, and discriminatory towards women, specially to black women. I’m a non-binary, mixed person from the Caribbean. I truly care in reducing harm and engaging into anti-racist education and action in my island. But since I cannot speak for certain experiences, I do the most ethical thing I can, which is to redirect the attention to voices like yours and those around me who are in the center of the discussion.

[@chayo4537]

Go the f away! You guys are not to be trusted. Yeah I said it! You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Stop pandering

[@CreoleKing1986]

As one of your gay male supporters, I hear you loud & clear. Side note: that cream and gold pillow is beautiful!

[@asmrcity3147]

Whewww, I have so much to say about this. So many black gay men internalize anti blackness that manifests as misogynior and even transphobia and it’s not okay. I’ve had to check so many of my people on it.

[@MiniM69]

Black gay men are still black men and despite their same-gender loving status, have to reconcile with that privilege and conditioning to thwart anti-blackness and misogyny…many just won’t do the work

[@kripakhanal9561]

Yes trans women are women. So why are you talking about “people assigned male at birth” and seemly just using that term to basically say men. Not cool.

[@deewilliams8033]

When u said this on the live yesterday I was intially appalled and then sad. I totally understand we’re you’re coming from and gay men are definitely users of misogyny. Sorry you had to experience that.

[@kayshawnsimmons5585]

Im sick of opportunist using BW for a Come up or to validate their BS

[@grapesyrop]

Kim we need longer videos on youtube we starvinnnnnnng

[@ForHarriet619]

I promise y’all I have SO MUCH good stuff in the final decision stages. Topics: 1, The Color Purple 2. Jacky Oh/Desirability 3. More beauty stuff 😬

[@haydenkelly460]

hey kimberly, love your videos… just wanted to give a heads up that i foresee people taking issue with the use of “AMABs” in the title. trans women could easily get swept under that moniker, and its original use was solely amongst intersex people to describe their experience literally having one sex picked for them over the other. only in the last three or four years has it been misappropriated with the increased popularity of non-binary identity. i think “masculine presenting” or something in that vein would be a less controversial, more accurate phrase for what you’re describing in this video. i’ve also heard “misogyny exempt” as a catch all for anyone who doesn’t experience misogyny. hope this was helpful

[@Ebthehousesitter]

No one is misogyny exempt.

[@blackgirlburntout]

Perfect comment! I have been trying to figure out how to express it but this took the words out my head! 😊

[@sevenone32]

Are you saying that because you believe that trans women should be exempt from this critique?

[@Vitalrose]

@@sevenone32 No they're not. Don't be obtuse and read the comment as many times as you need to understand.

[@morgenroete8789]

@@sevenone32 it's not that trans women can't be misogynistic, but the type of relationship that trans women have to womanhood & misogyny is very obviously nothing alike that of gay cis men and non-binary people that are socially read as men. Unlike the latter group, trans women actually experience and live womanhood. The critique in this video however talks about people who themselves don't experience misogyny and perpetuate it from a more privileged position.

[@phil4real996]

Also, this is the reason l had to stop watching Fox Soul and because the misogynorie from Al Reynolds & Funky, and the homophobia and transphobia from some of the Lisa Wray and some of the other women was wayyyyyy too much!

[@Sunmoonandstars123]

I also REaLLY wish we could publicly talk about the misogyny many trans women perpetuate without immediately being labelled/censored with the words transphobic/conservative etc.

[@sistayiddishkeitofficial5833]

The reason it's tricky is because cis women are so deeply transmisogynistic, and state power is on the cisgender side.

[@ForHarriet619]

Trans women are women, and this video isn't about them.

[@marie-francoiset9402]

@@ForHarriet619 however the video is about misogyny. trans "women" are misogynistic and speak over women and trans "men." They are bio males and benefit from patriarchy

[@ForHarriet619]

@marie don't get blocked.

[@VoiStudios]

​@@ForHarriet619 I think that this is why some people have a bit of confusion with topic. At least I did. Because you insist that trans women, who are adult human males that have transitioned to present as adult human females are women. Which is very different from the word woman which is defined as an adult human female. Something about saying trans women are women seems inherently misogynistic. And you have platform black Trans women who have insisted that they are the same as black women. How was it nobody sees the irony in the Erasure especially as a feminist?!? I'm confusion.

[@aliciamickle3159]

AGREE!!! I thank you so much! Really appreciate this context and context!!! This has come up time and time again! And I have experienced this from my own gay brother! It’s like gay men have found a way to be accepted by joining in on the attack of black women. It took me a while to see this pattern. But now I see it and can’t unsee it!

[@dablackangel]

Unfortunately not every marginalised person understands the struggle of marginalised people. Even the community they themselves are part of. It's usually because they themselves are doing well... so the issues others face isn't of interest to them.

[@iamcurtisbryant]

there's so much I would like to offer but what I can share, in my own opinion., is that many women put up with the nasty behavior of gay men because a lot of women (whether they will admit it or not) don't see their gay/queer male friends as men. I can't tell you how many convos I've had with women, where they expect me to agree with them because of my queerness. and when I do disagree there's a level of shock. luckily I'm mature and intelligent to use my words and read the room making everyone feel heard and valued in the space but the shock does come from a stripping of manhood. and as queer men we 1000% have to check the ways we contribute to patriarchy, in our words and behaviors daily. we as queer man aren't exempt because of who we love.

[@MrChalaki]

As a black gay man o agree Kim!

[@chriswalker6380]

SHE SAID!!! WHAT NEEDED!!! TO BE SAID!!!

[@adams8830]

This. Everyone keeps talking about how transwomen treat black women but I've only interacted with a transperson 1 time. Gay men are more abundant than transwomen and horribly disrespectful. Its time their attitudes are spoken on.

[@casey3879]

(I’m a white trans person. I appreciate you altering the title-I understand that you received comments about it and while I agree that this title is definitely more appropriate, I wish more people engaged with you in good faith, and additionally *actually engaged* with the subject you brought up.) Thank you for sharing your experience with this. I’ve seen similar things in my largely white queer spaces (white cis gay men’s treatment of white women) so it’s valuable for me to hear from you as someone who is experiencing not just misogyny but misogynoir. It’s not surprising, but certainly disheartening, that this kind of behavior is perpetuated by a group that knows what it’s like to be treated as “less than.”

[@chayo4537]

Go home Roger!

[@liteflightify]

I really don’t like the semi backlash Kim is getting. I completely understand where Kim is coming from. I do think the clip is a bit one-note, could be used to justify hate, and isn’t quite the smartest since a very large portion of her audience are black male queers who see black women as allies and very much seek to support and understand black women. I wish the clip was less incendiary and more careful and more nuanced. Because there is still so much male homophobia, heterosexual pressures, toxic masculinity, gay resentments, DL culture, people not understanding sexuality or the gender, sexual, affection, romantic, emotion, commitment spectrum in the black community- this is a topic that has to be handled very carefully by progressives. A lot of even out black queers use such simplistic views and media to justify hating on “black gays”. But I do get where Kim in coming from and very much agree with her point of treading lightly when it comes to things that you cannot directly experience.

[@teacherspetism]

I have said this for years as someone who shares space with gay men in my profession. They will come for black women QUIT, but give others a pass…. thanks for articulating it so well..wish you could have expounded more.

[@shethewriter]

Is it just me or has racism and mysogyny been getting worse over the last several years?

[@hild-demongoddess7498]

It’s not just you

[@mizsevenoneeight685]

@@hild-demongoddess7498 The pedagogy of racism & misogyny each respectively run parallel to one another. Historically when one is heightened, so goes the other.

[@Mariah203]

Worse imo!!! I went on IG two days ago and came across a clip of black woman bathing her dog. A seemingly innocuous clip and the comments were a cesspool talking about "Do you give your man the same treatment?" I watched two more clips of women doing harmless things and the comments were just miserable men berating and trying to humble them. At that point, I was like something is changing, like men are not okay. It's a widespread level of hate out there that is unhinged and ridiculous.

[@isaacmuth7097]

I strongly agree!!!! And I think AMAB non woman queer people need to hold themselves more accountable when it comes to misogyny!

[@Beccathree]

I really appreciate this, Kimberly! I’ve had not so eloquent but similar sentiments. There’s some gay black men content Creators that come to mind. It’s like they’re being snide about the plight of black woman and disguising it as allyship

[@RoseColored125]

Your intro alone, was a whole message!!! 100% agree with you!

[@liteflightify]

When it comes to black queerness and how black queer males engage with black female struggles, it’s “complicated” to say the least. A lot of black male queers feel as if they can relate to cis, femme black women because that’s who raised them, they have surrounded themselves with black women, that’s who they’re friends with and some of the struggles align to some degree. So, there does tend to be boundary over-stepping by some parties. While it’s further complicated by the amount of male gay shaming many black women perpetuate. Most of the direct homo-shaming and masculine pressures I experienced while younger, and especially as an adult, have come from black women. I’ve seen so many black women online attacking black queer males for just wearing makeup or for dancing to Beyoncé or for having a boyfriend. While some black women feel as if because of their struggles and because they have a cousin that’s this or a friend that’s that, that they have a right to perpetually purport hetero supremacy, to use anti-gay rhetoric to attack straight-presenting black men, and have the general right to use anti-gay language. It’s incredibly commonplace, and most out queer black men experience a lot of it from many black women, even the queer black men who constantly big up for and protect black women. A few days ago I had to shut down my niece (who’s just two years younger than me) whining about how all black men are “gay”, and they only wanna love each other, and how all black “gays” hate women, and how there’s not gonna be any black men to be with black women. On the other side, I see the blatant misogynoir from a decent percentage of black queers and see them using their traumas and struggles to justify it. I’ve realized that a large percentage of black people as a whole (whether female, male, older, younger, rich, poor, femme, masc, wherever on the queer spectrum) still have incredibly old school, insecure, traumatized views of love, blackness and female blackness. The amount of judgement and shaming we put on each other and how little nuance we see is so tired. As I said, it’s complicated stuff. I do agree that it’s always best to tread lightly and focus on listening when it comes to experiences that you cannot directly experience.

[@marie-francoiset9402]

is your niece wrong tho? how many straight bm are there for bw? is that her experience and reality?

[@liteflightify]

@@marie-francoiset9402 She was purposely attacking all black queer men, and she was doing so broadly. Almost every other conversation we have she ends up saying something homophobic/queer-phobic. I love my niece, and I understand a lot of the stuff she’s been through, and I try to “educate” her on different types of people’s struggles. But she clearly has her own traumas and insecurities to work through.

[@ddneq677]

​@@marie-francoiset9402this imaginary struggle that some bw are having w "all black men turning gay and not dating bw" is in part just a lot of you liking toxic masculinity and any bm not delivering that is written off. I think that's an in-house problem.

[@chayo4537]

Bro. Stfu. Yall still act like black women! How you taking smack about your favorite character who birthed you. Yall talk shit but you emulate it. And don't have anything to say when non blacks come out of their face. Cause you're too busy being a groupie for them.

[@chayo4537]

@@liteflightify non blacks attack blacks and queer culture all day. Keep the same energy and sentiments for them!

[@INTELECT112]

I'm going to say this Themis comes to him and @F.d signifier. Themis gives a platform to anti black divestors such as Cynthia G. And the pink pill. While at the same time claiming he is pro black woman, while at the same time enforcing negative stereotypes about black man and a black people as a whole and negating the history of white supremacy in this country that collectively put us in the situation. But at the same time he loves commenting on your videos and sharing them for his own personal content. Dude is a straight up grifter. Not only that, but he deliberately lies and twists people's words to give the impression that he wins an argument. FD signifier is wrong for platforming him and coming on the channel and giving this man compliments. In which he reposted.

[@cameroncapers7807]

I’m a bi black man and I appreciate how much nuance you bring to these topics. You’ve taught me so much.

[@FTKComputer]

One of the few ppl I trust online to actually have this conversation with depth, nuance, and sincerity.

[@hehimpapiNsuch]

Exactly why I had to leave Funky Dineva in the dust quite some time ago

[@AndromedonThanks]

Lmao I knew this had something to do with Clubhouse!

[@beatriceh.5666]

i mean this with all due respect: please don't use "masculine presenting AMABs" as a phrase. that wording is often used to frame nonbinary people who ARE designated those things as less legitimately nonbinary/trans than people designated "AFAB" or presenting as feminine. if we're going to take people at their word about their gender experience, that also means supporting people who """pass""" as cis men (don't like that phrase either but you know what i mean) but are actually nonbinary. additionally, "masculine presenting amabs" includes butch trans women who are frequently on the receiving end of the misogynoir you're discussing.

[@lamielemcmillan76]

I agree with you on this statement. I personally have lots of gay female friends, but I tend to stay away from alot of the black hetro females because they are so problematic when it comes to gay social issues, it's always "We being attacked or something is being taking away from us", when 95% of the time the MESS starts with them. And when a gay black male calls them out and hurts their feelings then it's a big misogyny issue. Personally I will come for a straight man ,women, grandma, etc. Respect me and i will respect you. 100%

[@mannyedeko6748]

Black Gay man here and I 100% agree!! Love your content!

[@reallyitsjackiev.meadows7578]

I always tread lightly in other folks spaces....cause I can only actually speak to what I experience and what I know. But I know other people don't mind where they are treading in conversations.

[@betzalelabrams2177]

I'm trying to see what you're saying but I have a really big issue with your framing of this topic. I understand that this is only a snippet and you may clarify in the longer video but you seem to group all Black AMABs together against Black women -- and it seems you understand that trans women are women so, then, why use a framing that seems to alienate people based on their body parts [that they had no decision in having] and then claim that because of those parts that they "have no skin in the game" when AMAB nonbinary people can identify, in whole or in part, as women? It seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too -- where you're inclusive on the issue of non-cisgender people but still separate on the basis of body parts. I don't mean to suggest you have any genuine hatred toward non-cisgender Black AMAB people but, just what I've seen in this clip, I'm disappointed with how you seem to talk about them. If you just mean Black men, then just say Black men, and not Black AMABs.

[@tresvegan3633]

This is so true. I can’t help but notice both sides, no matter if you are cis, straight, gay, however you identify. There are certain ideologies that are just seeped in racism, colorism, and white supremacy. When anyone no matter what body they encompass start to use certain talking points or voice harmful view points Im done with the conversation and that person most likely. Especially if I use my voice to let you know how harmful that is and there is no corrective action or even acknowledgment, I’m done. No matter what your body looks like, please check yourself when it comes to black women, especially those of us who are richly melanated and receive the worse treatment typically, while navigating this colonized world 🙏🏽

[@holliegolitely6245]

This could be used as an attempt to deflect from the real threat that Black men, often heterosexual, pose to Black women via femicide, domestic violence, and a culture of misogynoir in the Black community. Men and their handmaidens continue to deflect from the issue of violence against Black women because it makes them uncomfortable and they don’t want to do the work of resolving it. Gay, straight, or bi, men can pose a risk to women, but en masse it has been heterosexual men. Gay black men can be misogynoiristic and violent, but how can focusing on that alone solve the large rates of violence that straight black men enact on Black women?

[@TreniaP]

The lens through which I judge everyone when talking to me or saying anything about Black women is do you like black women? It’s a deceptively complex question, but it tells me everything I need to know about how I will engage with someone and how I expect them to engage with or talk about me. So many people fail miserably, unfortunately. What makes this even more complicated is Black women need allies, and we have nursed so many other communities and yet they are intent on doing things like Kim mentioned in the video, and if you speak up you get attacked. I wish black women would stop coming to everybody’s rescue with no reciprocity. Let folks defend themselves.

[@Ray03595]

miss when we could just use the terms man and woman. half this vid is her walking on eggshells with language and it just comes across as a word salad/

[@cvzdez]

If I'm also honest men are predatorial and opportunistic and many gay men sometimes want a Jason C to men by way of woman the family straightened. Men like to turn out good women. Is I've found that some gay men are really just near you to get. Mirror your man. To me I generally get a spirit of people who can at times the envious or jealous. I am worried intentions in general so I don't trust Easily.

[@adrian100]

Hi babe, gay and Coloured man from South African here. I can feel your frustration in this video. I am sorry someone was able to get you to this point. Just commenting here to show you love and support. No feedback, no debate, no rebuttal, just an ear for you to vent to. Please take care of yourself and take a break from Social Media if you have to. Nothing but love for you.

[@vernyjuane9922]

“I got a man I got a man I got a man” lol

[@kezzamedic]

As a black gay person, I've also observed that there is a tendency within my community for some individuals to express misogynistic views. I believe this behaviour arises from a sense of comfort, particularly among those of us who do not conform to hyper-masculine norms and view women as our allies. Often, when you belong to a marginalized group, there can be a feeling of freedom to speak openly within your own community. Personally, I have experienced a significant amount of abuse for not meeting the expectations of black masculinity, and much of it has come from women in my own family. It's disempowering to someone like me, as I don't find validation within patriarchal structures. Additionally, many of us have faced derogatory slurs like the f-slur, homelessness, and social exclusion. Unfortunately, these experiences can lead some individuals to become complacent and less aware of their own biases. While this explanation doesn't excuse their behaviour, it does shed light on why it occurs. It's truly unfortunate, to be honest.

[@jahipalmer8782]

Yes ma'am. I'm a gay black dude and have met other gay dudes that are just as misogynistic as anyone else. And honestly, I can't pretend I wasn't one of them when I was younger. Luckily I'm older and have grown out of (at least that specific type of) buffoonery.

[@lala_mnguni]

I love her work ❤️

[@candicedice8605]

Themis that is who came to mind. Sweet gay men riding high on black women's backs

[@niax782]

Have you seen him display any misogynoir?

[@terryyoung316]

Themis is openly gay?

[@papertape7911]

Themis has never said he is gay. It's weird and borderline homophobic that you are boldly asserting his sexuality without him doing so for himself.

[@beebalmbadil]

well, I'm transmasculine nonbinary, but I've had to delay transition because of medical issues. I'm also white so I navigate the world perceived as a white woman when that's very different than my internal experience. I won't speak on nuances of gender expression and experience while being Black; there's plenty I don't know. I do consider myself deeply observant of the nuances of living in an in-between place in terms of gender and I will share some observations. I see a need for conversation around how one navigates the world vs. how one identifies in terms of gender. For example, I experience a lot of misogyny being perceived as an ugly, fat socially awkward white woman. Despite that misogyny, I benefit from being white. The misogyny I experience is tiny in comparison to the misogyny experienced by Black women. My own complicity in white supremacy is very much tied to my history with learning to perform white womanhood and my compulsive upkeep of that, even as I seek to unlearn it. I often reflect on how different my life will be if and when I do navigate the world being perceived as a white man and wonder if the sudden experience of white male privilege will be enough of a drug that I abandon all feminism (I'm working on creating support structures with my therapist to prevent that). When my white, nonbinary friend who navigates the world being perceived as a white cis man (except for being out about their gender to a trusted few friends) started trying to police which emotions are okay for me to express "as a man," and telling me that white men are actually less privileged than white women because white women can use their victimhood to inspire other white men to attack the offending white man (a much more apt description for the experience of Black men), I didn't have a language to call them out about it. I didn't have a language to talk to other people about it. My perception of that encounter is that my friend's trauma around being taught "how to be a man" growing up was in a heightened state and that they didn't have the tools to do anything but project it onto me. But, without the language to talk to them about it or get support from mutual friends, they delved deeper into their trauma and our friendship is either over or on a long hiatus. So, for whatever it's worth, this is an example from my personal life about the complicated places nonbinary people inhabit when it comes to how the rest of the world sees us. And I think that your attempt to talk about those things, and to call out misogyny from those who can so easily weaponize it without noticing (despite also suffering from it) is an important layer that's needed in conversations about privilege. If we pretend that people who are perceived as men, despite identifying as nonbinary, experience misogyny the same as women, and people who are perceived as women despite how they identify, then we are lying to ourselves.

[@sistayiddishkeitofficial5833]

Black transmasculine person here. We're long overdue for calling out AMAB nonbinary folk who appropriate trans women's experiences to avoid responsibility for patriarchy, but that's an internal conversation within the trans community.

[@Lemondoor]

Y’all just can’t help yourselves huh? You just had to drop your observations which had nothing to do with what the video is talking about.

[@kbrown4736]

@@Lemondoor it was a novel, jesus...smh

[@Lemondoor]

@@kbrown4736 Each paragraph was a volume.

[@SunflowerVibe329]

It's hard to follow with all of pronoun specific titles ... pandering and gaslighting is easy to do to black women as we are always looking for an Allie as a collective.

[@phil4real996]

As a black gay man, l absolutely agree with this. However, l do think that there is another side to this coin. For many black gay men (myself included) many of our first experiences with homophobia came from black women (not all black women, of course)...but many of our own mothers and grandmothers were the first ones to pick up on our queer-ness and were the some of the first people to shame us, beat us, discourage any signs of femininity, throw the bible at us, encourage us to stay closeted and simply reject us. I think this creates a lot of resentment for black gay men when it comes to black women. Its just amazing how patriarchy will encourage two groups who are being oppressed by patriarchy, to use it against eachother at the same time...

[@TreniaP]

What’s interesting about this is while I understand what you’re saying, and I know a lot of black mamas and grandmas did this, where were the daddies and granddaddies and what did they say? What was their response? If this happened in your family, go hold them accountable, but the black women collective gets blamed due to proximity and for simply being there. There are so many black women who have been ridiculed, abandoned, or even SA’d by black men or boys growing up, but rarely resent the collective of black men.

[@phil4real996]

@TreniaP Yes, the homophobia comes from the men in the family as well. Im in no way denying that. But lm only acknowledging that l can come from the women in our families too, and it can be a reason for where some of this resentment comes from. Im not shifting any blame or responsibility from the men. Im in agreement that the misogyny that some black gay men have for black women is wrong, but it doesn't come from nowhere....no of us are perfect and both of our communities help and hurt eachother at times. There are many black women who will befriend black gay men and use us as their emotional support, or use our fashion expertice to make them look good...but will never accept or want their sons to be gay or will fall into patriarchal themes and demonize us when there is a disagreement

[@imParisthoee]

if the black women in your life treated you like this, what responses did you get from your black father, uncle, brother, homeboy? If the responses were overwhelmingly the same, then the special hate reserved for women is simply misogyny.

[@phil4real996]

@imParisthoee you clearly have chosen to misunderstand my comment....and thats your choice

[@imParisthoee]

@@phil4real996 I understand what you said. Black women are not exempt from being homophobic and a lot of gay black men’s early rejection comes from the women in their family. That’s clear. What’s not clear is that gay black men do not seem to harbor a specific resentment towards straight black men even though straight black men discriminate against them and are generally much more violently homophobic than women. I’m not pointing this out to be like hey women are the lesser of two evil;this isn’t a competition to see who can be more homophobic. But the fact is women are more than likely to be accepting of gay men. So any special disdain for women is misogyny because this energy is not kept towards men.

[@lotusjumpingspider8761]

This is a good take Kim

[@Lemondoor]

We just now figuring this out? This is ONE of the reasons why I don't let Black Gay men (or gay men) period, from calling me "bitch". I see way too many of them getting away with that and at the end of the day this is still a man calling a woman a bitch.

[@jhovofalltrades]

You are who ever you want to be in life. But you don't see this debate when it comes to Trans Men and non Trans Men. As a black man, I have acknowledged the level of privilege I have. even with face discrimination. I feel lot of people in the LGBT+ community have to face their privilege, whether you u come into the game as class, race and sex

[@chayo4537]

None of yall are to be trusted when it comes to black women.

[@PureGrit2]

The simple fact that all the comments are mainly about the terminology she used to reference groups where she sees a growing problem with and not what the context of the video was; solidified her point. Great job Kim 👏🏾

[@BooDotBoo]

They run around in circles to not engage with the main message. As usual.

[@Fae313]

Thank you, I noticed the same thing. It’s all about them, all the time.

[@AE1P]

Yeah, it's disappointing but not surprising. I do agree with what most of the ppl taking issue with Kim's language/terminology are saying but I don't think it really needs to be prioritised in this context - we're not collectively in a place where we have super accurate and non-clunky ways of talking about these things. I'm non-binary and Kim wading into this topic initially made me feel a bit anxious (because I didn't know where she was going with it) but I still waited until she had finished making her full point to engage with what she was saying. Her point stands, even if the language was a bit clunky, and the issue of misogyny enacted by people who don't neatly fit into the "beneficiary" category of such a system is very much pervasive. I think Kim's track record speaks for itself on where she stands on issues of transphobia and homophobia. She's already called out that nastiness in this very comments section, and I wish folks would take that into account before derailing the discussion.

[@dlc2479]

Do you see it...Anything to shut down women's voices...the shit is tired now

[@ddneq677]

​@@AE1Pnot everyone that will come across this clip will know Kim is not transphobic. It's ok to point out that a certain term might harm unintended groups. Doesn't take away from the message.

[@roxannevicious]

!00%. Thanks for speaking on this topic, Kim, and with such passion and precision. Sending blessings to you bebe

[@Name77784]

You were in Ayaan’s room werent you lol

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

HAD to be. Aayan be talking crazy

[@SistahPunkStudios]

I don’t understand the conflict with the AMAB umbrella term. We have to unpack this as a real occurrence in community and discuss it with good faith and nuance without dismissing another marginalized group’s experiences. gender and sex are different. Trans women are women and also are assigned male at birth and that’s be beauty of trans identity. This conflict is less about bio-essentialism and more about the socialization of people who are assigned male at birth into patriarchal misogyny and racism even if they later identify as queer, non binary or trans. They can still perpetuate that misogynoir under the assumption they are exempt from being bigots because of their own queer status. We need to stop defecting and call each other in rather than living in fear of terfs or worse semantics

[@MM.Pink.Balloon]

I agree 100% - just had this conversation with my female bestie .. 💪🏾

[@tylerhackner9731]

This may attract Terfs which I don’t like but there is also truth in it

[@ThatFlamingFroggo]

As a Queer Trans-man, yeah. It's in Queer spaces, as much as it is in hetero spaces. It's in Trans spaces, as much as it is in Cis. Well, maybe to a lesser degree, but it still shows up. And I respect that you want to tread lightly, because I get it. It is hard to point out, and rather bring attention to toxic aspects within community, let alone from one marginilzed group to another. Especially when there are those who want to jump in, and take that conversation as a way to further 'other' and demonize said group, like LGBT and Trans folk in the current timeline. Often people forget that such conversations are best approached with nuance, as we all live in different blocks of the intersections that make up our being. I have experienced it personally, from both perspectives from when I passed as masc, vs when I did not. It definitly, can feel different from say the way cis hetero men go about it, but it's not too far off. The patriarchy, specifically the white one, seeps into all communities, so being Queer or Trans does not shield you from being a raging racist, and or misogynist.

[@monstermoo4191]

Good on you for knowing when to just walk away from some silliness. Everyone is an internet debate lord nowadays and I find so many people will try to waste your time arguing something that's on it's face ridiculous, but formatting like a high school debate is supposed to make it sound less stupid. It reminds of a comedian who said, "y'all have in the market place of ideas, or Narnia, or wherever else you think Nazism can be constructively debated..."

[@lahbody7047]

What you said at the 2:18 mark is exactly why I blocked a content creator yesterday that I was following. Bullying and disrespecting women who follow her bc we were calling out misogynistic behavior she was defending from a person who was born male

[@jrr7031]

Can you give examples of this exploitation that comes from "black males" both straight and non? I understand the consequences and results, but what you just were talking about....yea I had a hard time following the why/how.

[@christophernightshade]

Talk yo shit bae!!!

[@BlimpCityFeeder]

Like N. Fuller Jr said, the rewards and the programming is there. Would say more but could result in those hard conversations, that may occur down the line.

[@Fae313]

💯

[@katherinesavarese6009]

These two individuals who said ignorant things is unfortunate. Do most gay black men and amab black people act that way though?

[@TheSomethingnew1]

Not all amab but I’d argue yes because most cis men are misogynistic. It’s just dressed differently and meant to come off as endearing from queer men.

[@katherinesavarese6009]

​@@TheSomethingnew1 but are most gay black men like this? It feels wrong to put the microscope on a couple of individuals from a marginalized group if they are the main source of the problem. Especially during Pride Month

[@Ray03595]

it sounds like she got trolled by at least one of them and took it personally. Can't take the comments of internet strangers that seriously

[@LunaLeoJourney]

I'd love to know how this presents itself - I think I'd be relatively able to spot it but hearing specific examples would expedite even more critical thought about this topic. If anyone in the comments would like to respond the door is wide open and welcoming!

[@baddapplesauce]

Carlos King is a prime example!

[@jessejacobs9856]

What I have took from this is, it is best for black gay men to stay out of black women’s spaces

[@MonicaMoore-ju1he]

THANK YOU FOR THIS! Because TUHDAY! ... I have HAD IT! I was raised very conservative ... went to a liberal arts college ... made a bunch of liberal friends ... and lived the majority of my adult life as a vocal progressive ... until! ... UNTIL! Things started getting weird. And I am struggling to find my place, footing, and allegiance and I'm having a hard time reconciling that.

[@stephanielove2662]

It’s okay to not fit in where you’re not meant to fit in

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

Agreed. Grew up conservative, met liberal friends in college, dated liberal men…and now I’m back to being right of center. Not hard right. But I’m leaning for sure, it’s a weird time to be alive 😂

[@yoyodre]

What do yall mean by getting weird? And what is the significance of returning to your conservative ideologies?

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

@@yoyodre It’s hard to articulate but being a black women that is pushed to the margins (meaning, I’m not ambiguous looking enough to leverage my beauty for capital) kind of forces you to accept that there’s no real space for us anywhere? Progressives don’t make me feel safe, and often use language we created against us to escape any real accountability. In Kim’s case, black women like myself see her saying basically “men are being misogynistic to BW, y’all need to stop that” but it’s being policed similar to how a far right person would? Which makes the binary of conservative // liberal feel dishonest in this country. You get treated about the same either way. Embracing self determination and pragmatic thinking has led some of us (at least the ones who *see* where these movements are going) to opt out entirely due to distrust. Certain values for some reason fall under conservatism but maybe shouldn’t? A metaphor: everyone is waiting for the bus to take them somewhere. But you’re the only one without an umbrella. You can maybe try to fit under someone else’s umbrella but you’ll still get soaking wet, while that person keeps themselves dry. So you put on a rain poncho and tough it out alone

[@machsimillian14]

​@@ninagrace-lee8323 you make it seem as if where the liberals are falling short, the conservatives are able to meet that expectation or need that you have. But in this country, conservatism is responsible for stripping women of both their rights and their self-determination. Maybe it might be better to say that you just no longer have faith in the agenda that liberals purport to foster, because otherwise you're jumping from the frying pan into the oven. Also, could you expand upon what you mean by weird and where you see these agendas ultimately ending up? Seemed as if you're speaking in code as to not ruffle feathers. Better to just be direct and say you mean.

[@Nikki-ks6wi]

@2:10 babyyyyy keep that on repeat yes Harriet! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@YaBasicMillenial]

It’s why I listen to both you and Chrissie as there is more agreement over certain topics than each of you care to admit. Also the conclusion may be different, but often the observation is the same

[@joycearmstrong1648]

i don’t agree w the characterization of the term “AMAB”, because black trans women can fit into this group. You would better be suited using terms like “black people socialized as men”.

[@haydenkelly460]

“socialized as men” could also raise this issue though. “people who don’t experience misogyny” / “misogyny exempt” would be more accurate

[@KingNeutral1]

TG women were also socialized to be men by society as well. They’re also not immune from saying insensitive things as a result of their conditioning.

[@haydenkelly460]

@@KingNeutral1 literally any woman cis or trans is not immune to saying insensitive or misogynistic things. that doesn’t mean trans women should be grouped into a conversation about men butting into women’s business.

[@javonjamayal]

Once you said club house i felt you talking bout the personality “Aayan “ on there and if you are i agree with knowing what was said

[@bluefood726]

Who is she talking about? 😮 I’m lost…or is it just me?

[@korinebailey4177]

❤Love you my Black Educator Queen

[@nonuora]

Thank you for this video!!! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@yarmc5780]

This is so trueee!

[@naturalbeautee6530]

Can we please stop trying to normalize the the term cic gender. I am a woman. Not a cis gender woman.

[@nervous_greenfish]

cis