The Terrifying Secret the Q Don't want you to know

Let's discuss it...
Trek Chapters:
00:10 - Intro
00:15 - Nefarious Liars
01:13 - El Aurian Cold War
02:21 - The Borg Become Peers
04:06 - Answer to the Borg
05:17 - Conclusion
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[@tyguy101a]

If you consider the Enterprise episode regeneration, the Borg had finally received the signal sent from the 22nd century Borg and had there sights set on the alpha quadrant. The Borg had already scooped up colonies along the neutral zone for recon. Q sending the Enterprise to meet the first cube gave the federation a chance at getting some recon of their own. I’d be more interested why Guinan (and other el-aurians) hadn’t given star fleet any information about the enemy they were running from. It wasn’t until the first cube arrived that Guinan started barely spilling beans.

[@hokutoulrik7345]

I believe this was addressed in an episode, in that Guinan and her race can actually see the paths of time and she probably saw a path where she did go full divulgence and it would end badly for everyone in the galaxy. But the path where she would drop hints lead to a better future, even if there was more suffering in the short term.

[@davec3400]

Maybe they did. Where did the Hansen get their information on the Borg? To them the events of rescuing the El-Aurians by the Enterprise B was over 50 years ago. The events of Ent: Regeneration was over 190 years ago. Maybe Starfleet did debrief the El-Aurians survivors that got picked up. The Hansen finally put it all together while combing through Starfleet archives and set out to prove their theory. Too bad they got assimilated before they could report back.

[@mrbuck5059]

I'm sure Section 31 knew about the Borg years before the el-aurians got rescued. Section 31 wanted to study the Borg like Weyland Yutani wanted to study the Alien.

[@nexusdrop7863]

I think Q retroactively called the borg and forced humanity to face it. Dealing with just a single moment in time seems like an annoyance more than interest. The ep where Picard kept going back and forth in time only to prove he caused the whole problem by trying to figure it out seems like something Q would do.

[@Ni999]

I don't think that Guinan shared anything ahead of time was because the writers hadn't fully conceived of what the Borg were to become and they were making up the Q as they went along, right from the start. Q's initial purpose was to rewrite the TOS history.

[@Vidiocity92]

I had that idea a couple years ago too. Something about DeLancie's delivery of "DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!" conveys more than just annoyance.

[@athrunzala6919]

It was more like 'don't jam that fork in the power socket!'

[@thefinestsake1660]

Just doesn't want the Borg to break his toys.

[@ungoyone]

@@thefinestsake1660 Good point.

[@Padge112]

If we add picard to the mix. The Borg was pivotal in helping stop the anomaly. Maybe your right. If his son affected the collective it may of been detrimental for his Favourite Captain in the future

[@robertderamo8943]

It seemed to me like when you provoke them, he’s got a lot of work to do to undo the mess that ensued. The Q seem more like wanting to play and toy with people than to be responsible and have to clean up messes.

[@ktefccre]

I always thought the line "Don't provoke the Borg!" As akin to when parents tell their children " Don't play with fire!". It's relatively safe for Q but the Borg could destroy everything that Q loves and hold dear (like how fire can destroy your house but you would likely be safe physically).

[@liggerstuxin1]

Good analogy and observations

[@hypochondriac4491]

That was my thought as well, but more like kicking over an ant hill. The ants can't kill you but will be annoying as hell do deal with

[@warlockpaladin2261]

It begs many interesting questions, doesn't it? The El-Aurians are not interested in "power as we understand it", they simply see a different dimension to what everyone else sees as an ordinary volume... and now the Borg can see it too.

[@MKDumas1981]

Tell that to René and Robert Picard.

[@andrasziegenham6766]

"the Borg could destroy everything that Q loves and hold dear" Except he can snap his fingers for the Borg to disappear forever, or he could just travel back in time and undo the damage.

[@chunkygiblets4678]

John de Lancie's performance was compelling because besides coming across as a thespian trickster you could always feel a burning urgency behind his eyes. Even when he flaunted the idea of wiping out humanity at a whim it always felt like a parental warning of our frailty.

[@1337penguinman]

Q is actually interesting in that he's something of a maverick even among the continuum. I wonder if he didn't expose Humanity to the Borg when he did because he saw a trait in us that only the Borg had in any kind of quantity. Our ability to adapt. And much like the Borg, it only works, or at least works best, when exposed to danger.

[@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681]

You might want to check out my answer on top. We see the same thing.

[@tablescissors67]

Yes, the actor deserved an award for his portrait of the character and I thought he became even more compelling in Picard (although he felt overused in Voyager, sadly).

[@rianmacdonald9454]

More of a stark reminder of what is at stake, and to be better, to be what you were always meant to become. PROTECTORS OF LIFE.

[@rianmacdonald9454]

@@1337penguinman Interesting. Actually explains a lot.

[@Tuisto]

There's an episode of TNG where a time fissure changes the past, remaking the Enterprise into a warship as the Federation is at war with the Klingons. It was a plot point in the show that Guinan instinctively felt this change in time, that it wasn't the correct timeline, even if she lacked details. Concluding that the El-Aurians could at least "feel" time and maybe even counter time effects from The Q

[@paulkerry69]

Yesterday's enterprise

[@ceilyurie856]

was checking to see if anyone else remembered this.

[@russellharrell2747]

Guinan had been in contact with the Nexus, and that might be where her sensitivity to time displacement comes from. Perhaps not all El-Aurians possess that ability but a lot of them would given how many survivors the Enterprise-B saved, included Soran.

[@pietervanderzwaan4295]

wonder what the role of the borg is in this timeline.

[@347Jimmy]

@@russellharrell2747 good point about the Nexus

[@JamesR1986]

Here's an important point you didn't mention. If you look at the episodes of Q in order. Q Who is followed immediately by Deja Q. So the very next time we see John DeLancie's Q after he introduces Starfleet to the Borg, he has been stripped of all his powers and ejected from the Continuum. So if DeLancie's Q is playing geopolitical chess with the Borg, he's doing it against the wishes of the Continuum.

[@charlesroyal5125]

Great theory

[@norcofreerider604]

That doesn't mean there isn't a faction within the Q who supports his actions though, just that those who were in power at the time disagreed and reprimanded him for it. This idea of factions of the Q in conflict with each other (with John DeLancie's Q having clearly chosen the side that wants to be more active in preventing their stagnation) is supported by events in Voyager. It would also follow that his faction would likely be more interventionist and be more likely to bring the Humans in to fight a proxy war. It would follow that the Conservative faction opposed his actions in both cases.

[@zzodysseuszz]

@@norcofreerider604that would irrelevant to his point tho. Obviously not all Q collectively and unanimously agree, but clearly the ones who do not make the decisions are irrelevant to the Q’s wishes.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

@@norcofreerider604 It may also have, to some degree, been Political. They may have sacrificed Q as a way to show that the Q were NOT provoke the Borg. They may have their own Agreement/s with The Borg most likely.

[@norcofreerider604]

@@zzodysseuszzIf that were the case then the Q civil war as depicted would not have happened.

[@henrikgafvert5983]

The Q can end the Borg with a snap of fingers. They don't due to being a sort of guardians, they also protect the timeline and Daddy Q was upset with Junior Q because he brought them to a place they weren't suppose to be.

[@partymanau]

Can they?

[@henrikgafvert5983]

@@partymanau The Q have unlimited control over: space, matter and time. Voyager S7 E18

[@Nerdiness1985]

@@henrikgafvert5983The worst kind of writing there is. The only reason the Q have any redeeming qualities is due to the actor who plays the Q we all know and like. The species itself, beyond lazy writing. godlike aliens is so unbelievably boring and so overdone it's an eye-roll even by the TNG era.

[@DrewWestPress]

Correct. It’s that simple. The Q don’t fear the Borg as they’re like microscopic insects to them.

[@henrikgafvert5983]

@@Nerdiness1985 Just like the bible with the exception of anything redeeming at all.

[@Skyblade12]

In their introduction, it's implied that the Borg are far more than what they turn into. The Collective is essentially a single giant organism, with the ships being limbs and drones being blood cells. In her talks about negotiating with them, Guinan says something about needing to be on their level. I think that the Borg might communicate with a race that they see as actually being a race, but none of us are, just as none of us would communicate with random amoeba and amino acids.

[@miahconnell23]

The Borg babies in a drawer, the “infinity shots” taken zooming out when Picard was placed in a node, use of a cube (because no aero-dynamics in space), the quiet-ness and chilly background music, all that when the Borg first got shown on TNG, I found it scary at the time ! And then each time they were shown after that, they were less scary. Normal conversations & more anthropomorphization = less scary, imo

[@zwordsman]

There is an additional note for this bit. The rfact that the Borg Queen for instance does indeed have conversations rather often with Picard or Janeway(versions). They do comunicate when its someone they consider "a thing" and not "a tool"

[@Skyblade12]

@@zwordsman Yeah, that's why I said "in their introduction". The Borg got seriously ruined the more they were brought up, as the writers did not utilize their uniqueness well, IMO.

[@pwnmeisterage]

"In their introduction", Borg were inhuman, mechanistic, ruthlessly and relentlessly efficient. I feel they were ruined when the Borg Queen was introduced. She was single point of failure, she could be emotionally and psychologically manipulated. Her existence itself created imperfection and weakness, diminished the Borg into something common.

[@peoplez129]

If the borg met another collective equal or superior to them, they would try to assimilate them. But the borg aren't even really a collective. They're ruled by a queen. The drones don't contribute anything mentally but processing power. So the queen tells their brains what to process and peers into their memories for knowledge and experiences, and that's as far as their participation is in the whole collective process. Of course without a subspace connection to the borg, they default to being their own personal collective, but at that point they're really just on autopilot to their programming and their only goal is to rejoin the borg.

[@feliperisseto9113]

At the same time, remember when Q saved the Enterprise from the Borg, moving the ship far away? I don't think the Borg are stronger to the point of defeating the Q, but they can be. I think they are using the Federation as a pawn, to defeat a possible enemy. They were on a position to choose the winner, so to speak.

[@robertwlester]

yes. I think the borg might well be a danger that can maybe not be defeated by the Q, due to el-aurians or other factors. Thus a proxy war is waged using Picard and Janeway, and then picard again. End result is a new borg, which might be the only borg, or, at least a perfect counter to the borg in the delta quadrant. Making a federation that can create the room for a new borg is the best way for the Q to defeat the borg indirectly, and it is Q's life's work. If you think about it.

[@williamcortelyou9072]

@randomguy9777 The whole theory is that the borg got to a point in the future the Q are afraid of them. And capable of stopping direct interference. The whole 29th century storyline. So the Q sought to use other races to fight them in the past, so they can be defeated in the future.

[@meyatetana2973]

You mean like Q saw in the near or far future the borg if not challenged now would become strong enough to give them some trouble?

[@eldermillennial8330]

This lends me to thinking that the Borg Queen from generations had originally been an El-Aurian.

[@liamdevlin5980]

@randomguy9777 I agree that the Q could easily remove the borg from existence. I disagree with the author regarding the Q fearing the Borg. In response though - it is noted that but for the interaction between the United Federation of Planets (UFP) then it is likely there would have been no militarisation of starfleet. If Discovery is to be considered cannon - it might be suggested that without those advances the UFP would have ceased to exist entirely... What if the borg were necessary to change how the whole of the alpha quad, in particular the UFP, approached exploration etc?

[@WilliamBrinkley45]

I still remember that scene where Q comes face to face with Guinan the first time and she started hissing at him like a cat and did a weird martial arts pose

[@Funkybassuk]

And never ever did anything like that ever again 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@DJRonnieG]

@@Funkybassuk Yeah it was so cool of a premise.. what a shame that they didn't take it further.

[@creationlabsinc.189]

Funny thing is the actress that plays Guinan does that hiss in real life. Especially if you oppose her political views. 😂

[@markk7082]

Yeah bro you don’t fuck with the cosmic cat technique

[@rcengineer8159]

I think they were originally planning on revealing that Guinan is really powerful, powerful enough that a Q actually is uncomfortable around here. But then I think they realised, it wouldn't help the story to have a potential Deus ex Machina around all the time. Because the amount of threat through exploration would drastically decrease if it was revealed that they have one of the most powerful entities in the Galaxy as a permanent ally aboard the ship.

[@cteal2018]

I have always entertained the idea that the Q were an evolved vision of what humanity becomes in the future. Thus we eventually become the Q, and they are here to ensure that their history is not altered.

[@custardcream2226]

The Borg came close to being annihilated by a random species from fluidic space using conventional weapons, and they were almost crippled by one Federation starship with a time-travelling captain. They are essentially a power limited to one corner of the Milky Way. The idea that the Q would fear the Collective is fanciful. The Q can move freely through time, galaxies and dimensions and vanished Borg ships with a snap of the fingers on numerous occasions.

[@noneayourbusiness5149]

The first encounter between the Enterprise D and the Borg saw a full-sized Borg Cube get crippled with just a few phaser strikes. It was only after facing the Enterprise and chasing after it did their technology begin to increase in response to the new "threat". Before that moment, the most powerful Borg ship in the galaxy was weaker than a Federation Shuttlecraft.

[@noneayourbusiness5149]

Although... what if the Q are only NOW afraid of the Borg AFTER what our first Q did? It could have been part of what led to his eventual punishment by the Collective. His act in sending the Enterprise into the encounter with the Borg was actually the triggering event that started the entire process of the Borg actually becoming powerful enough to be a real threat? That's an interesting thought. And fits the timeline, as it's only LONG after Q caused this encounter that he yelled the "Don't Provoke the Borg!" line.

[@segatasanchiro6334]

You are completely correct. The fact the Q would actually fear the Borg is borgus...er...bogus.

[@Everyonceinabluemoon]

To be fair, you massively oversimplified Species 8472. Their biggest and really only advantage is that they could not be assimilated and their weapons (which were not conventional) couldn't be adapted to. These two advantages crippled the Collective's ability to defend against them and essentially made most engagements lopsided in 8472's favor. As much as I liked Voyager, I will admit the amount of convenient writing and plot armor given to the crew and ship was silly, especially when dealing with a power such as the Collective. It made them seem somewhat trivial when the opposite is true, the Collective is a force to be reckoned with.

[@Denso481]

This. The theory proposed here seems sound when you cherry pick your references but falls apart very quickly when juxtaposing against the many other events, like the ones described above. To add one more to this: in Picard season 2, we see a Q-induced alternative timeline in which humanity has basically become a galactic fashist space nazi empire (40k anyone?) that has hunted the borg (and all other races) pretty much to extinction. So basically a single Q made the borg extinct with a single snap of his finger So much for the borg being a threat to the Q

[@robertpanek5944]

The Borg were able to open a portal to fluidic space and did extensive research on Omega molecules. Even though both events were only partially successful, I think it's the potential of mastering either of these technologies is what worries the Q. It's also a myth, that the Borg don't innovate themselves. They did design a harmonic resonance chamber to stabilize Omega, sooooo... Yeah. Don't provoke the Borg...

[@tonoornottono]

i think it’s interesting that the show insists so often that they don’t innovate. you’d think billions of brains working in tandem would create one of the most creative and innovative beings possible. billions of eyes, billions of hands, looking at the galaxy from billions of angles and spread so far as to make mental connections between the goings-on of one star system and another. the borg should be the fastest learner and best innovator in the galaxy.

[@commandoepsilon4664]

@@tonoornottono "...looking at the galaxy from billions of angles..." I think that is your problem, they aren't looking at the galaxy from billions of angles, only one angle because they all think the same way, they are all one mind. I think this would mean any field where their preconceived notions are correct they would do very well in, but any field where they are working with false premises would be almost impossible for them to advance in. Just like how when working on a project or problem people can get stuck and can't find an answer because they are already thinking in certain terms, but then someone else that hasn't ever looked at the problem before can come up and make a sensible and obvious solution precisely because of their fresh perspective. Since the Borg can't do that they could very likely get trapped thinking something is impossible when I is entirely possible they just aren't approaching the issue from a valid perspective, thus they don't innovate because they write it off as impossible and don't have any opposing opinions to challenge that assumption. Well until they assimilate a species that has already prove that the Borg were wrong.

[@christopherkidwell9817]

@@commandoepsilon4664 This... it could very well be that the design for the harmonic resonance chamber came from a race they assimilated who had thought that new technology up.

[@cryofpaine]

@@commandoepsilon4664 they have one hive mind directing them. But that hive mind is able to draw on the memories and experiences, the talents and skills, the knowledge and training of every member. So the Borg queen is able to see the universe through billions of different perspectives at once. Come at a problem from billions of different angles.

[@DarkCode]

Excuse me but can you please tell me the episodes? I haven’t seen Picard season 3 if that’s where they are but if not let me know 😊 thanks

[@AGrayPhantom]

I love the line of, "DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!" I always interpreted it as, "Yeah, I got in some SERIOUS shit for flinging The Enterprise at a cube years ago. Can you DON'T make the same mistakes I did?"

[@JamesR1986]

it was in fact the very next Q centered episode.

[@paristo]

When Q say something like that, they really mean that Borg collective is serious threat to all.

[@Freakazoid12345]

More like bad writing. DS9 and Voyager just took the best of of TNG, which was the best Star Trek media ever produced.

[@liggerstuxin1]

@@Freakazoid12345 I can’t watch Star Trek. It was my dad‘s show. But I did like The Next Generation. There’s no show like it. TNG was a huge jump compared to the original. There is no huge jump, only copies of TNG.

[@Freakazoid12345]

@@liggerstuxin1 oh yeah, I can't watch the original series (TOS) either. I'm totally with you on everything you've said. Honestly, only people I know who watch Voyager, DS9 and the other shows have the mentality of a 5 year old, almost without exception. The first season of TNG was pretty dang close to the original series, but was still much better, as they had a few decades inbetween to build up a strong fanbase who ended up becoming engineers, scientists, etc. who contributed to the show and they were able to reuse assets from the movies like footage of space battles, space stations and the musical score from the movies as the intro. Nice to see other people who feel the way about it as I do because I feel like I'm losing my mind when I hear grown adults watch garbage children's shows and talk about it without shame or embarrassment.

[@nodiggity9472]

The big secret that the Q don't want everyone to know, is that their whole purpose and function, was always that of an open ended plot device. An omnipotent, capricious being with a hard on for humanity. Picard in particular. And Riker. Judge. Jury. Ringmaster. DM. Deus ex machina. The whole retcon of Star Trek depended on TNG having an actual plot, so when the plot gets stodgy, they can just 'insert Q' and move the plot along.

[@finnegan-mccoy]

asking genuinely, what do you mean by retcon? i’m kinda new to the fanbase lol

[@eduj]

@@finnegan-mccoy means to find some way to change/ignore an established part of the past plot so that its more convenient for your current narrative. lazy writing. happens A LOT though.

[@qdllc]

There was also another angle.... In sci-fi, I've noticed that "advanced" often is written to mean "dead end." What does one do when one has learned all there is to learn...done all there is to do? We see it with V'ger. They did that with the Q. In SG1, we see it somewhat with the Ancients.

[@twebster9498]

I've always wondered why Starfleet didn't engage the Borg in more traditional hand-to-hand combat. They obviously adapt their personal shielding to energy weapons but in First Contact we saw that they are vulnerable to weapons like Worf's sword and Picard's gun on the holodeck. They don't move that fast, usually. I say you send an away team over to a cube armed with AK47s.

[@masterpoe4942]

Nah..swords and Warhammer...lol😁

[@samtro]

The Borg would simply adapt to that too

[@JimiGosu]

​@@samtroI could see the Borg adapting to the PHOTONIC Tommy Gun that Picard used, but not to Worf's sword. Not if they want to remain defended against directed energy weapons.

[@jaynedavies2757]

Sometimes the production teams, don't see the obvious like us, to continue the poor storyline. I think the borg would be a poor enemy in reality. The UFP would have a database of ballistic weapons, from multiple races. So borg target practice ahead.

[@Revytwohands-io6du]

there's no reason why they couldn't make a shield to block physical matter it's just so primitive they didn't consider that a threat but they can adapt.

[@SymbioteMullet]

I've always considered Q to be a practical archaeologist. He's in the past ensuring his own existence.

[@ObeyNoLies]

That's an excellent idea too.

[@aioshan653]

I think you may want to ask this question why was the "shakari" put beyond or in the barrier... the answer is mainly apocrypha but it might shed light onto why the Q are so protective of humanity. in short there antics and stupidity are the reason why humans are ooze to now. enjoy.

[@Gadmeer]

This is more plausible than the videos concept.

[@anathardayaldar]

I knew with a video title like this one, I should read the comments first. Thank you.

[@tablescissors67]

Well said. @@Gadmeer

[@maybetoby]

I don't think any of this is enough to demonstrate the Q fear the Borg. I think it demonstrates that provoking the Borg ruins whatever game Q is playing at the moment. Rule #1, never put more thought into something than the actual writers lol

[@beepboop204]

i dare you to convince my autism of this.

[@aentreri00]

Q snaps fingers and sends Borg ship into a star just like they moved Enterprise to the Borg.

[@nathanielhellerstein5871]

But the Q feared having whatever game they're playing ruined.

[@RurouniKalainGaming]

Lol, could be.

[@SBaby]

I don't think it's so much that they fear the Borg NOW, but that they fear what they could become LATER. If they keep assimilating species' and keep becoming more advanced and gaining access to new things, then eventually the time might come where one of them gets lucky and is able to assimilate a Q. Then it would just be Game Over.

[@hodgeman]

The Q that leave their home existence, would be bored to death in a universe full of Borg. I think the Q support the Federation, being the best chance of stopping the Borg, without directly interfering.

[@shakingaspen1526]

Exactly, the Borg are boring and Q likes a little drama and entertainment. Guinan may be worse the Borg. What's worse than a useless know-it-all who answers questions with a question and treats people like a disapproving step parent.

[@silversonic1]

The dynamic between Q and Guinan is one that's sadly not ventured into often. She was one of the only people who believed Q was actually expelled from the Continuum, stabbing his hand to show he was powerless to stop her. While Guinan herself barely ever divulges in her past, abilities, or relationships, it's clear Q himself has earned her ire more than the Continuum as a whole. And whatever caused it doesn't seem to have happened before the 21st Century in Picard Season 2, as Guinan doesn't seem to have the same malice towards him. But I would like to make an observation. Jirati showed the alternate Queen that the Borg are doomed to fail in every timeline. That would seemingly include the one from which a variant of the Enterprise-D commanded by William Riker desperately attacks a dimensionally displaced Worf's shuttle in a desperate attempt to not return to their reality where the Borg did conquer Earth. That would mean that a force would and could still arise that could end the Borg without humanity or the Federation able to fight back. Another important thing to note is that the Borg Queen scared Vadic, which is fairly alarming. The fact that the Queen could communicate with Vadic by means of what seemed to be part of Vadic herself tells me that Borg nanoprobes do have some hold on at least these Changelings, perhaps due to the experiments that gave them better control over their solidified state. All things said and done, there are too many unanswered questions that need answers. Maybe one day we can get some answers that don't raise more questions.

[@trololkhil9868]

the borg were getting their asses kicked by species 8472, so that might explain why the ultimately lost in every timeline. either they won vs federation and thus janeway never ended up helping them stop the invasion or they lost vs federation or someone else.

[@silversonic1]

@@trololkhil9868 An excellent point.

[@CommanderWolf888]

Damn, contextualizing the Federation-Borg conflict as a proxy war instigated by the Q is an incredible and believable idea. Definitely adding that to my headcanon.

[@TheRezro]

Borg was created by V'Ger and V'Ger is member of Machine Race/Federation who are T'Kon (Icon) AI what in fact are closely related to Federation own AI's. Examples are Iconian Gates and Edo God. They secretly mastermind events in the franchise. They in fact caused Romulan supernova and most likely Praxis explosion. Officially when Iconians attempted usurp power of Q, they own machines rebelled seeing that as threat to multiverse (it is possible that Q may be also machines, used to block organics from tampering in the transwarp network). After Iconia was bombarded, survivors were spread around terraformed planets and deprived of the tech. Giving birth to most races in franchise. BTW robosquids and Zora are clearly members of Machine Race. Borg Queen most likely know and also serve them. It is worth to remind that Gainan described Borg attempt to assimilate Earth with one cube as irregular and as result of reform, humanity was ready to confront Dominium. If not that intervention (including Celestial Temple) humanity would be wracked by Dominion. And furthermore we do know that there was Federation allied Borg Queen there whole time. What Agnes Jurati was doing when Borg show up?

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​​@@TheRezroSo Star Trek takes place in the Transformers universe. How does Landru fit into that?

[@chrisbingley]

There's an episode of TNG where Q offers Riker the chance to join the Continuum. So I think it's safe to say that the Q definitely have an interest in humanity as future allies. However, the Q aren't the only 'godlike' race in the galaxy. Kirk and Co encountered several on their travels. Maybe it was humanity's interactions with Trellain (I've tried to spell this three times and none of them look right, please correct me in the comments) that got the Q interested in us in the first place.

[@ib9rt]

Isn't it "Trelane"?

[@chrisbingley]

@@ib9rt Possibly, wine and dyslexia are a potent mix.

[@zoidberg444]

Maybe Trellain was a Q?

[@chrisbingley]

@@zoidberg444 It's a possibility. Though it's never mentioned so I'd have to assume that he wasn't.

[@segevstormlord3713]

@@zoidberg444 Various novels have claimed he was. We know Q-Jr. didn't need machines that the Voyager crew were able to detect, unlike the Squire, who Kirk & Co. defeated in part by finding said machines. We know Gary Mitchell became a reality warper that, insofar as the audience saw, was indistinguishable in capability from the Q, and he definitely was human before encountering the Galactic Barrier. We also know that there are _definite_ non-Q seeming reality-warpers: the Traveler is one such, and even ignoring the irritating exposition dump in the last episode of Picard S2 from Wesley (who was far, far more annoying there than I ever found him in TNG, and that's entirely due to the horrifically awful storytelling involved in that scene), we know they're able to basically go anywhere and be untouchable to "lesser" beings. Frankly, the story _I_ want to see is Traveler Wesley Crusher dating Q Amanda Rogers. Being a Traveler puts him at least in the ballpark of a Q. Amanda, too, shows us that Q not only can reproduce before we ever meet Q-Jr., but also that their powers are inherent and hereditary, because she develops them as she grows older. I suspect that, if the Squire of Trelane was a young Q, he was younger than Amanda in the TNG episode we meet her, since he needs toys to do his things. Which means they were dealing with a child even by human standards!

[@ObeyNoLies]

My thoughts always were as thus: The Q are trickster gods. Like all tricksters they APPEAR malevolent but are actually just trying to influence and shape the destiny of the beings they encounter. They recognize the need to play the villain. The reason why they set the Federation against the Borg was to make the federation stronger and to change events so they do not simply fall prey to the Borg. The Borg represent something very sinister, but also fundamental to a galaxy filled with humanoid races. The Borg are something that cannot truly be defeated. The Q are aloof but no so aloof as to be untroubled about what the Borg might BECOME if they encompass the galaxy, so they sew the seeds of the Borg's downfall. And about Guinan's people, I always thought that they were the one's who BECAME the Borg. That would have been an EXCELLENT plot point for ST Picard. That is also why Guinan is interested in the Federation, to keep them from going down the same path.

[@evolve991]

Now that's a theory I like. It would explain alot about The Borg, Q-tinuum and Guinans peoples vague fate.

[@philipsangalang5077]

I have come to believe that both the Borg and Humanity represent spirits that cannot be defeated. One adapts and learns to grow stronger and continues to consume all life in the process. Technically, once all significant forces have been mastered, the Borg will see things as perfection and no longer have anything to adapt to or innovate for. The other adapts and learns to grow stronger and attempt to spread and grow life in the process. Technically, once all significant forces have been contacted, the Humans can continue to study reality and continue to grow and innovate. These are two aspects of life that we all face. And to ensure that the future continues, the philosophical position the Q strive for is to subdue the destroyers, and promote the growers.

[@Protagonist]

I always figure the secret to the El-Aurian's power was the Ribbon, it's a pretty powerful tool when you think about it. The power of perfect precognition... almost like omnipotence. If the Q and El-Aurians had some sort of conflict I would imagine it was over the Ribbon or it was involved with the conflict. It's just a guess but maybe it went through both species territories, enabling them both to commit terrible wars against each other until both perfected their use of the Ribbon and forced a stalemate. Perhaps some doctrinal differences made the research in to the Ribbon different in both species. El-Aurians having a more religious tone the other more seeing it as a scientific mystery to resolve. As a result of deeper understanding the Q transcended their entire race to some Ribbon copy, maybe a better more refined version or at the very least more useful in a practical sense, so the El-Aurians were left behind. Maybe the Borg too have the ability to interact with the Ribbon but are unable to use it. Their hivemind is possibly a weakness which forces them strictly on a tech focus rather than exploring how consciousness effects the universe, like the Q can.

[@SprikSprak]

There's a line or two in the final episodes of TNG which I remember Q hints heavily to Picard that Humanity will either end up being the ancestors to the Q in the future or that they will be contemporaries. It's what seems to be the underlying driver of Q's interest in Humanity's worthiness in the TNG period.

[@jasonjulian1]

This has always been my theory since basically season 3 or 4 of TNG. Humanity is destined to evolve and become the Q themselves...

[@peoplez129]

The Q see humans as potentially becoming like them, and also potentially even surpassing them. I don't think Q meant that in merely a state of existence kind of aspect, but in a philosophical way, because the Q have non interference policies, they've essentially become stagnant and bored, and the starting principles of the first Q's would have colored that. So if humans do evolve into Q level, they would be doing far more with their power, still having a prime directive, but also willing to take action when they see something wrong, which means the potential for the whole galaxy or universe to be tended to like a garden with the weeds pruned, while also still exploring their own existence, and in that sense they will have surpassed the Q. That's the problem with the Q, they got bored and stopped exploring their own existence because they felt they had seen and done everything.

[@laertesindeed]

@@jasonjulian1 Have you ever considered that all 3 might be dependent upon each other for their existence in an odd paradox sort of way? Consider...... there were some theories that maybe one of the early machine probes sent out by humanity in the 20th century eventually got far enough that it encountered a super advanced someone who gave it all the technology it needed to achieve its philosophical goals of joining with its creator causing first V'Ger and then the Borg. Perhaps it was a Q or the Q which was that advanced someone....meaning the Q created the Borg. But then the Borg centuries later challenged the human species to think outside the cube and improve themselves..... so indirectly the Borg created what Humans will become around the year 3000 or so in the trek canon; mastering temporal technology. After which point......it is possible that humanity changes its entire philosophical point of view and no longer wants a starfleet or physical colonies on planets retrieving materials to have more kids to increase the size of starfleet to make more colonies on more planets to have more kids yada yada yada.... and maybe they change their entire lifestyle to Quasi immortal and Quasi omnipotent and Quasi omniscient continuous beings that can teleport themselves to the beginning of their own universe and then live the whole way through that universe and when it approaches the entropy heat death....just teleport back to the beginning again and continue living. But the Quasi people...... that Quasi Continuum..... that Q...... wouldn't exist if humans did not exist. And those Q would also not exist if the Borg had not challenged Humanity to overcome some difficulties and become that 31st century temporal transition. So the Q must create the Borg right there at that time I mentioned above. And the Q have to make the Borg meet Humanity in the 24th century. They would all be interconnected in a loop that needs to happen.

[@ZontarDow]

One idea I liked that was explored in one of the books in the old post-Voyager novel universe was the idea that the Q are aware of us the viewer as an even higher level of being then they are in the universe and the Q we're familiar with is one of the few who uses antics to keep the attention of us because of a fear that should we ever stop paying attention then their entire universe will simply cease to exist since we created it to entertain ourselves and if it no longer does that function and isn't maintained because of it that begs the question if the universe will stop exiting, and Q simply doesn't want to find out the answer to that question.

[@canisarcani]

thats... a very interesting concept.

[@therealtombrokaw]

Welp, looks like they know they're fucked after Picard.

[@MeldrickCz]

Yeah breaking the 4th wall is curious but i holds only so far as comedy goes.

[@pimpinaintdeadho]

@@MeldrickCz I was gonna say that sounds exactly like Deadpool in the Marvel Comics/Universe. LOL I bet the author read Deadpool.

[@athrunzala6919]

So it's A Never Ending Story . . . 😆

[@sgtdh6892]

I always thought the Q were evoled humans. That is why Q told Picard to explore his potential and not just space. Also I figured Picard was Q’s ancestor which is why he took interest in him.

[@bradleyj.fortner2203]

Q was more afraid of humans than any other species. Not because of what we are. But, because of what we could be.

[@everettjohnson9374]

My wife was pissed when she heard Q died, said the writers of Picard didn't know a Q can't die...gonna have to let her watch a few key episodes of Voyager. She HATES Voyager with a passion 🤣 Neelix is her Westley Crusher

[@jblyon2]

A harsh comparison, but a necessary one

[@MeldrickCz]

I see your wife is m...woman of culture.

[@pimpinaintdeadho]

Check out Enterprise.

[@Tezunegari]

S02E18 "Death Wish" and S03E11 "The Q and the Grey" Technically TNG S06E06 "True Q" Though this episode puts a pothole in the Voyager episodes, as both Q had died (Amanda Rogers paretns) and been born (Amanda Rogers) which was a great deal in these episodes. The Q might not count it when it happens as "mortals" though. And in "Death Wish" the Quinn (the non-DeLanci Q) had to become human before dying... and I don't remember any mentioning of deaths during the "Q and the Grey" episode. So, to me the Q being able to die is rather shaky as we only saw or heard about Q dying when in "mortal form".

[@chrisbingley]

"She HATES Voyager with a passion 🤣 Neelix is her Westley Crusher" I feel the same way.

[@buckrodgers1162]

The Borg where able to time travel long before the 'Picard' series. Remember 'First Contact'? A Borg cube attacked Sector 001 (Earth). Lost the battle, but before it exploded, it undocked a sphere; That sphere then proceeded to to travel back in time to prevent Zefram Cochrane's first warp flight. Just another problem with the newer series, they rewrite what has already been established.

[@shawn092182]

What was rewritten?

[@buckrodgers1162]

@@shawn092182, Basically the entirety of the history. Example: In Discovery there are flames used to propel ships. While flames was also one of the things that Gene Roddenberry said there will be none of in Star Trek. It's one of the reasons I stopped watching the entire show after the ending of Voyager. The writing was getting to be so bad they needed 'chestacles' (Jeri Ryan) just to gain viewership. And After that it only got worse.

[@shawn092182]

@@buckrodgers1162 let me clarify my question. What I meant to asked was, what was rewritten regarding your comment about the Borg and time travel?

[@VesiustheBoneCruncher]

Nothing is rewritten in regards to time travel in Series 2. The Borg queen they encounter is a broken husk with incredibly limited physical resources. They use the STIV time travel method as it’s the only quickly viable method available to them in that situation. This is explicitly explained.

[@SBezmy]

Don't forget that in Star Trek Enterprise, Borg corpses left behind from the First Contact storyline are reactivated, go on a minor assimilation spree, and they manage to send out a signal towards the delta quadrant before being destroyed. I believe T'Pol calculates it would take some hundreds of years for the message to reach the delta quadrant... which was obviously meant to close the loop and to provide a backstory on why the Borg sent that first cube towards/close to the Federation in the first place. Leave it to the Picard show to fuck that up.

[@darkhawk123]

Just because you mentioned Q(De Lanci)'s death, I posited that the Prophets and the Q were in some level of detante. And while the Prophets can only exist outside of time the Q can operate within it. Anyway, Captain Sisko is revealed to be half prophet in S7 of DS9, I theorized that when he punched Q in Season 1 he dealt Q a slow, but killing blow. And that is why the seemingly nigh immortal reaches the end of his life.

[@JohnnyReb272]

It is already established that Guinan was able to "feel" alterations in the timeline. She knew that something wasn't right during "Yesterday's Enterprise". She knew that the timeline that they were currently in was... "wrong" somehow. It's extremely plausible that whatever changes the Q Continuum may have attempted to make to the timeline in any kind of temporal war could have potentially been affected or even neutralized by the El-Aurians if all (or even just some) of them possessed this ability. I think that the whole reason that the Q don't bother with altering the timeline is because they know that there are other races out there who will be aware of their changes and make changes of their own... possibly with unpredictable results. With their assimilation by the collective, it's almost certain that the Borg have acquired the temporal sensitivity of the El-Aurians. That is the entire point of assimilation. They add not only the technological distinctiveness of other civilizations, but their BIOLOGICAL distinctiveness as well, to their own. I think the Q sat back and let the Borg overtake the El-Aurians without fully anticipating the consequences, and now find themselves faced by a far worse adversary.

[@tiefensucht]

Yeah that would be a great thing to explore, the connection between Borg, Q/The Collective and the El-Aurians. They teased this in so many episodes but never did anything with it.

[@TheReal_BallzBDragon]

Interesting theory. I feel there are more heavy players involved that should be examined such as species 8472. I get the idea that individually, the Q are in less control than they say, but I also get the idea that maintaining a certain balance in the universe is treated like a job for the Q, and that they act within a sort of prime directive rather than doing whatever they have the power to do. I suspect the Borg presents a problem for the Q that is difficult to solve without breaking their 'prime directive'.

[@warlockpaladin2261]

Having power and actually using it are two very different things. Omnipotence isn't quite what it's cracked up to be.

[@xxan84]

Even the Douwd could erase entire civilizations with a single though. The Q would need to snap fingers instead. The only thing preventing it, would be something as you said, a code they are working on.

[@Houdini343]

I've always thought that the Q were grooming humanity. They saw something in us, the ability to change and evolve, and wanted to understand that or harness it. I got the feeling that they are and always were the way they are now. During the episode when Q killed himself, he talked about the continuum becoming stagnated and was tired of existing. Maybe they wanted us as 'new blood' or to discover how to evolve.

[@joeschembrie9450]

I have a theory that the Q are humanity from billions of years in the future. They now exist in a continuum apart from temporal reality, meaning they can alter the history of the universe without being affected by the changes. The El-Aurians seem to have developed an organic sense of timeline alternations, while the Borg seem capable of protecting their own timeline from alteration. We have this notion that you can go back in time and change anything, but maybe there's temporal counter measure (TCM) technology that limits timeline alteration. For example, in First Contact, the Borg Sphere has to travel to Earth and break through Star Fleet defenses before it can go back in time to alter Earth's history. However, if it had gone back in time a thousand light years from Earth, it could have approached Earth without having to fight Star Fleet. So why didn't it do that instead? The easy answer, of course, is 'plot hole.' But maybe there's a more sophisticated answer involving time travel technology.

[@laurabeane8862]

Q was the one who brought Humanity to the Borg's attention.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

@@laurabeane8862 Yup, it's never stated if it's the entire continuum or the John De Lancie Q that had such a fascination with humanity. We also don't know how many Q there are. It could be a vast population of trillions or just a handful. Maybe the ones we see in the Voyager episode are all there are. And since the Q we see the most shows interest in changing the status quo, adding Riker to the mix, as a new Q would clearly do that. The same with Quinn and during the Q civil war.

[@Charistoph]

We know he was grooming Picard, at least, and looked at Riker and Vash as well. It's not too much of a consideration that QLancie was trying to uplift humanity in a way.

[@laurabeane8862]

@@Charistoph I actually Liked "Q" playing the fears Vash had. "You could have cought a Disease..."

[@brendangarvin7787]

That could be why the Borg went looking for Species 8472. They were trying to find a proxy that could take out their enemies on their behalf, but bit off a bit more than they could chew when Species 8472 proved to be too powerful even for them.

[@Markbell73]

20 years ago, I would have really cared about this conversation. But after introducing the Queen to the Borg. Making Q take an interest in Captain Janeway. Introducing the Borg in Enterprise. Not to mention the garbage happening recently. I no longer consider myself a Star Trek fan anymore. But thank you for the momentary thought experiment.

[@oracle478]

I've always wondered what the Borg knows about changelings and if they can be assimilated, DS9 never touched on that and voy never mentioned it.

[@rreagan007]

The Borg often have trouble assimilating novel alien species. They weren't able to assimilate species 8472 because their biology was so different. I'm guessing they would have difficulty assimilating a changeling too.

[@chrisc6857]

Honestly, I think a Borg/Dominion war would be a different kind of conflict than the Borg usually engage in. Remember, the Borg only assimilate species they find worthy, species they perceive as bringing them closer to perfection. They would totally want to assimilate the Changelings but probably wouldn't be able to do so. The Vorta and Jem'hadar on the other hand... The collective has no need for mewling sycophantic diplomats or drug addicts. Those species would be seen as unworthy. (They might assimilate one or two Vorta just for the tactical info in their heads, but that's it.) So in this fight, unlike others, the Borg would only be after the Dominion's technology, not it's biology. This just might mean that the Borg wouldn't even try a full assault to destroy the Dominion; Assimilate a handful of ships and they've got the tech, they can replicate it themselves from there, no need to keep attacking. If the Borg did go ahead with a full invasion of Dominion space, the Dominion would, all other things being equal, last longer than the Federation, in part because of their better technology, in part because they are more skilled at war, and in part because they control a much larger territory. But in the end, without plot armor, they'd still lose.

[@KABZProductions]

I always thought a changeling would just morph and spit the nanoprobes out.

[@travissmith2848]

@@chrisc6857 I suspect the Founders would represent a very intriguing "biological distinctiveness", but perhaps of far more utility would be Founder Cousins like the morphing key they found in one early episode. Fusing the already half living Borg ships with such "technology" increasing healing rates as well as changing shape on the fly would be very useful for a race who's watchword is adapt.

[@CODDE117]

@@chrisc6857 I think the Borg would absolutely love having Jem'Hadar to assimilate. They grow so quickly!

[@tcsmagicbox]

It makes sense that Q intentionally introduced the Federation to the Borg, then helped the Federation along the way so it will fight the Borg for them.

[@stevenpike7857]

On Voyager, Q yelled at his "son" about Q rules, like, "Don't provoke the Borg!"

[@Christobanistan]

Yeah, this fan theory is more than a little stretch IMO.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

REMEMBER: One of the most terrifying things about The Borg is their ability to quickly Adapt & Assimilate. In one of the Books, the Borg were able to actually adapt some of the Q's power as their own, or at least one Cube/Sphere of Borg did. The Q don't fear the Borg as they are, but more what forces they could bring to bear if threatened enough. Along with exposed to enough of the Q's energy and power. They could learn to Assimilate or Negate it. Thus the Q has a Hands Off approach

[@michaelboyd2404]

Yup. People forget that the Borg are slowly becoming a Multidimensional species. That's what makes the a potential threat to everyone, given enough time. I've always wondered if Q manipulated the Caretaker into grabbing Voyager, like the prophets manipulated Sisko and Daniels manipulated Archer.

[@lyrebirb83]

I've missed some newer trek timeline stuff. What do you mean here?

[@michaelboyd2404]

@@lyrebirb83 they're exploring timetravel and fluidic space. Who knows where else they've been...

[@michaelboyd2404]

@@xbfdx988 maybe. Maybe not.

[@lyrebirb83]

@@xbfdx988 then why haven't they?

[@Klyttorius]

@@lyrebirb83 Maybe humanity, Q's favourite pet, when having no enemies to face will always fight itself, and kill itself. Maybe Q leaves the Borg in check but alive, as an enemy for humanity to continue to face so we have no cycle of killing ourselves off.

[@WeirdErnie]

This is a take on the Borg that I hadn't considered. I like it. I have always thought (probably even before Tapestry or All Good Things) that the Q saw humanity's potential to have an evolutionary advancement to become something similar to the Continuum and Picard S2 might have been more compelling to explore that further.

[@NathanRChristie]

I always felt like Q didn't want to provoke the Borg was because if you do they spread. The more the Bord spread the more boring the universe gets. The Q play with "lower" life forms for entertainment, the Borg take the entertainment away.

[@adamrubella2290]

Truly thought provoking. It’s something I never considered. Granted in the next generation there was obvious animosity between Guinan and Q there wasn’t ever any deeper explanation. Never even weather or not it was just between Q Guinan or if it was much much larger and deeper than that. Fascinating.

[@andljoy]

What if the El Aurians are like nulls and they supress the Qs power.

[@danielseelye6005]

Now if only Whoopi Goldberg would channel a Sister of Silence, maybe she wouldn't get into so much trouble. 🤨

[@toddfraser3353]

I kinda like that idea. Also, with their sensitivity to changes in the timeline that might explain why the Q may be afraid of them, however they are mostly just a normal alian to the federation. They are resistant to the Q and Time changes. Making them dangerous to the Q. Being that the Borg had assimilated them that means they too have some resistance to the Q, as well shown sensitivity to time line changes.

[@MrBennylargo]

@@toddfraser3353 They’d be exactly zero threat to Q. Even if for some bizarre reason the Q couldn’t directly use their power, they could easily make their star explode, or drop a black hole on them, or quite literally anything

[@shado7418]

🔥HERSEY🔥

[@steampunker7]

Interesting idea and it does add a curious amount of context to the events of Q Who. One facet of the Q that you touch on is that we honestly know and understand very little about them. And what we do see is, in universe, stated to be filtered for our perception. Their biology, psychology, culture, life cycle, are all mysteries and the various representatives we encounters only ever seem to muddy the water further. The one commonality they all seem to share is that they are "liars" to some degree. But even that descriptor doesn't quite fit. As they appear to be less intentionally deceptive and more...not telling the whole truth. Not out of any real malice or malfeasance (Q's penchant for mucking around with lesser species not withstanding.) But rather because we wouldn't be able to wrap our brains around them if they did try to explain it. Which, to me, makes any history between the Q, El-Aurians, and Borg seem like The Doctor's comment about the The Last Great Time War: "You weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres." What, exactly, were "the Skaro Degradations?" Who is "The Nightmare Child" or the "Could-have-been King?" What would a "Horde of Travesties?" or an "Army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres" look like? We have no point of reference or context for any of them. All we really know for certain is, based on his delivery and visible look of terror at mentioning them, The Doctor sees them as very, VERY bad things and therefor we should probably see them as bad too. But as we also eventually learn, neither the Time Lords nor the Doctor himself were innocents or "the good guys" in that war. Committing atrocities and going to extremes that would make even the Daleks proud. It is possible any conflicts between the Q, El-Aurians, and Borg would be similar. Wars and battles of a scale and scope that it's near impossible for humans to truly fathom them. Grasp how they were fought, what was won or lost, or the political intricacies and nuances that underpinned them. All we can gather is Q has no love for the El-Aurians (or at least Guinan), the El-Aurians have some kind of history with The Q, and neither like the Borg. Which, again, makes the idea that Q, very carefully and very subtly, introduced the humans to them as a (or perhaps another) proxy in some long standing cold or proxy war make a level of sense. And make the fact that it would be humans who would prevent the Borg from getting their $#!+ pushed back in by Species 8472 all the more ironic. XD

[@1337penguinman]

I think that's the real reason for the hostility. It's an instinctive reaction by the Q who have probably always relied on subterfuge as a defense mechanism in their evolution. The fact they naturally appear in a comprehensible form to other species means that no one ever sees their true nature. And the El Aurians, to some degree at least, can.

[@robertfergusson5367]

There was a TNG novel where Deja shows up and "requests" the help of Picard and the Enterprise in dealing with a portal that leads to the domain of the ones who rule over the Q. Describing them as the ones who were present as the audience at The Trial during the Farpoint Mission. Q said that they had greater power than the Q, but they had one weakness. One that could be accessed through the portal that the Borg had now learned the location of. If the Borg got to the portal first then the Borg could use it to assimilate the superiors and then the Q. Wish i could remember the title of it though.

[@nathanmeyenburg2681]

I am not sure if we think about the same novel, but there is a tng novel called "Quintessenz" (German name, idk the english one, also SPOILER) in which it is explained that the beings superior to the Q exist outside this universe and can create and destroy universes at their will. The described portal and audition is for them to test if this universe has anything interesting to offer, if not they will annihilate it and create a new one (or Sth like that). Q feared that the Borg might find the portal first, leading to disappointment in the Creators and death of the universe. Instead he guides Picard to them and they find Picard funny enough to let this universe live. The book does a pretty solid job at tying all Q-events into one mostly coherent narrative imo

[@chrisvellinga6567]

​@nathan meyenburg so far I can't find an English version, seems to be only in German...I hope there is an English version that story sounds great

[@bikkiikun]

I think, the novel you are speaking about is called "Q & A", by Keith R. A. DeCandido.

[@Christobanistan]

@@bikkiikunAre such novels canonical?

[@IcarusTyler]

Nice breakdown and theorizing! :) To me Q being afraid of the Borg was the possibility of the Borg assimilating a Q. The Borg could potentially get close to that, and if they did manage to assimilate them, and gain all their powers, the entire universe would be Borg in an instant

[@marilynfink5771]

Marilyn's employee says: If memory serves, DeLancie's Q was the trickster, Most of the other Q seemed a bit more serious and watching Delancy closely in his dealings with humans. If memory serves.

[@cliveklg7739]

All but one episode most of the Q characters were tricksters as well. The only one they weren't portrayed that way was the one episode they travel to the continuum. Where there they were just boring. Trek hasn't exactly been consistent with them.

[@bernb]

@@cliveklg7739 Maybe their timeline is not in sync with the universe? The Q we see in Voyager are maybe what the Q had become after aeons of years.

[@cliveklg7739]

@@bernb not just the voyager ones. The TNG Q that wanted to die was mischievous as well. That is an overly complicated way to disregard other portrays of others being like him.

[@afriend9428]

*he was in love with Captain Janeway on Voager*

[@wickedhorizoninc]

So many of these questions are answered in the 3 book series Q Continuum , Q Space, Q Zone & Q Strike. Including why after defeating Zero, Q became obligated to look after humanity as a penance. Also The episode in Voyager had nothing to do with the Q fearing the Borg, it had more to do with young Q messing around and risk altering the natural course of the timeline of events that they would then have to cleanup. Even the Nexus was discussed in the books as a mere playful anomaly Q created on a whim. Even events from the older movies like the being in Star Trek V The Final Frontier trapped on the planet behind the barrier is explained. There are a lot of "easter eggs" in those 3 books that touch on how and why the Q have a vested interest in humanity as well as their own history. Even the only known artifact left behind created by the Q from the older Star Trek series. "The Guardian of Forever." And much more. The 3 books are an interesting dive into the lore that connect a lot of loose ends that otherwise dont make a lot of sense or can be misinterpreted. A good read for anyone who is interested.

[@CapitanGreenhat]

I read all these my first deployment to Iraq. Definitely great read and there are a couple other Q related books that are pretty amazing reads as well. The books aren't Canon though unfortunately

[@kjk7611]

And ergoes the problem. Some things should be left a mystery. Simply, The Guardian of Forever was built by beings long dead. When everything is explained that deflates the Star Trek galaxy. Now, some things should be continued! Like Spoke's Sarpedan son (ALL OUR YESTERDAYS). THE CAGE/THE MENAGERIE. However, The Q shouldn't be the FIX IT FELIX for everything Star Trek.

[@citizen_grub4171]

Unfortunately, those books are all apocryphal. They are not canon.

[@kjk7611]

@@citizen_grub4171 They are to me. Decades of Star Trek "history."

[@citizen_grub4171]

@@kjk7611 You don't determine canon, unfortunately.

[@ovni2295]

My theory is the Q can't directly fight the Borg because the Q are from the future - specifically, they are the Federation's future. They can't do anything that would disrupt the timeline enough to prevent their own eventual existence. That includes putting the Borg on a rampage that would overwhelm the Federation. Remember - The Borg only ever send one cube to Earth because they think that's all it would take to overwhelm the Federation, but they have thousands of cubes. They could take the Federation in a day if they really wanted to. If that happens, no more future Federation, no more Q Continuum. As for the El-Aureans, well, they see through time shenanigans, which is reason enough for them and the Q to be at odds, and why an El-Aurean refugee would take up residence in the Federation - to try and make sure the Federation goes the way *they* want it to go.

[@Transilvanian90]

Interesting; I've always had a fascination and respect for the Q that went way beyond the pretty simplistic "they're annoying and all-powerful so the enemy" takes of some of the episodes. The Q are almost a sort of caretaker of the Galaxy/Universe.

[@nathanhale7444]

One thing that made me wonder is the stance that Gynan took when she saw Q in "Q Who" on TNG. As if she has some Q like power she could defend herself with. That was never really explored to my knowledge.

[@segevstormlord3713]

This is one of those things that I feel like Picard S2 dropped the ball on if it didn't directly address it. :( Not that Picard has any shortage of dropped balls, even within its own continuity in a single season. >_

[@4thdoctor284]

Yeah they still never really explained Guinan's race and the Q cold war thing. So I'll take a crack at it. What if her race were an early attempt at grooming a humanoid race to become the next Q only to have it screw up or fail in some lasting way Maybe along with their temporal sense they also retained some ability where they could somehow take out a Q probably as a last resort level expenditure maybe a collective race wide focus of power against the Q. The Q sensed this and decided to head it off before real trouble happened so the truce. And it isn't known as fact if Q and the other Q that supposedly died actually did die in our understanding of the situation. It's possible that they actually "leveled up" into beings beyond even the Q. Don't ask me to explain what that may be. Maybe it has something to do with "GOD" that is cooling his heels imprisoned on Sha Kah Ree. It seems like he was a pretty powerful pain in the ass at some point. He could have originally been a different variety of god like being only he went around absorbing the quickenings or whatever after defeating other god level entities to level up his powers. The god like entities of roughly the same level of powers see this chump as a growing problem so they all decide to dog pile it. It winds up being tougher than they expected but after a tremendous battle spanning time and space they weaken the bastard severely enough to subdue it. Then they stick him on a planet and cause the Great Barrier to surround the center of the galaxy. And they also form the barrier at the edge-and all around the outside of the galaxy to keep other riff raff out. So there it sits slowly trying to concentrate what power it has left to mentally influence some being to come to it. So Sybok falls for it and hijacks the Enterprise. It scrapes together the last of it's power to open a transwarp corridor that also shields the Enterprise from the nasty effects of the Great Barrier. By the time the Enterprise arrives the entity is weak enough to get KO'd by a photon torpedo and a disrupter volley after creating a couple pathetic Ben Grimm wanna be's that probably just fell over so God vandalizes the shuttlecraft by busting it's windshield.

[@blackgriffinxx]

I think i have an answer about that. Her race had one power that was made clean. I not sure how powerful it is. Their power was to be above Space-time continuum. Q being above that too. Means her race could take a swing at them like no other race. Being that they are more of her race kind than the Q. A fight between would end with the Q winning but at a huge cost. Now what that power was . I think it was the ability to bring the Q to our space -time. which would probable weaken them a lot. This has been hint at a few. times. One when Q was human. She was ready for a fight bare handed. Another was when a time stream was alter and she did not move and remember things when so much change around her. She was anchor to her point in time and space. Her race is the rocky outcrop in the once in the ocean ,the Q is a man in a ship and we are the fish.

[@LegacyArkGames]

It was easily missed in Picard S2, but the younger Guinan actually made the same hand gesture when she and Picard were in her bar. They heard someone entering and were already concerned that Q might show up, so she raised her hands in that same gesture and was able to tell it wasn't a Q. Turned out to be the guy who thought they were aliens. If I had to guess, they either have multiple powers and use the gesture as a focus, OR (more likely, I believe) they use the gesture as part of a way to nullify Q powers. If the El Aurians couldn't do at least that, they wouldn't have survived an instant of war with the Q.

[@willb7392]

or.....whoopi goldberg wanted to be on the show and the writers "needed" to give her character something special that would not make her...ordinary.....lets go with ordinary... yea. that....

[@Sonicgott]

If the Borg find some way to assimilate the Q, and that possibility could have happened when Quinn became mortal, the secrets of how to manipulate the universe in the hands of the Borg could have devastated everyone... in all time, everywhere.

[@paulbrooks4395]

No, it was explained in the TNG episode where the girl gets the opportunity to become a Q, as well as other episodes, that Q intervention is prohibited. When Q (other one) talks about how boring and repetitive the Continuum has become, he’s stating that they are not open to intervention or even interaction with the rest of the universe. Q has the responsibility to raise his son as a responsible member of the Continuum. It’s a paradoxical twist to the character that explains his outrage at his son’s behavior. Provoking the Borg has almost ended humanity multiple times. Q has a fondness for humanity, and beyond that, provoking them risks doing it all over again. It’s doubtless a reference to the first meeting of Q in TNG, when humans were forced to meet the Borg. The reference to the audience is that Q has talked to his son about his own stupidity in provoking the Borg. The likely reality is that the El Aurians are immune to direct Q powers and perhaps could even have things reflected back on them…resulting in what could be a very weird outcome for the rest of reality. Regardless of what the effects would be of them facing off, it’s also likely that the agreement was that the Q would stop messing with time so much, because the alterations were upsetting to the El Aurians and the Q couldn’t just openly effect them without causing problems or paradoxes. So they had to have a truce. It’s likely that the agreement to end time alterations was both in agreement with the Continuum’s doctrine of non interference and the treaty with the El Aurians, to such an extent that the Continuum was determined to stand by when species get wiped out by the Borg-even those they had agreements with. And species get wiped out all the time across the universe, so the Q have decided that getting involved was a bridge too far. By the same token, they also shouldn’t be pushing things around so that they cause calamities. In effect, the end of the El Aurians would just have been business as usual to them.

[@GrahamDIY]

The Q are literally omnipotent. They can do anything. They would not be afraid of the Borg. That’s just ridiculous.

[@kylerector6082]

That would a an awesome departure from your normal star trek series. A tale of how the Borg came to assimilate the El-Aurian

[@jakecorley2972]

I love this type of speculation video! El-Aurians always seem to know when something is out of place in time, or that something is up. Which definately shows some time travel knowledge. The rock paper scissors example is a good explanation of how one could fall but the other two are in stalemate, or atleast non aggression.

[@cb-gz1vl]

No that was just specific to Gynan. In the movie part of her intellect was trapped in a dimension outside space time so she knew something was out of place.

[@markfuston2714]

@@cb-gz1vl Picard season 2 actually elaborated on it further, it seems like her species has some other abilities related to time travel and monitoring the timeline and changes to their own personal timelines.

[@lasarith2]

@@markfuston2714 I’d hazard a guess that since they apparently can now control there ageing, if they live for many thousands of years + there somehow able to detect any changes within that lifetime, so if a 2000 year old El Aran suddenly relies that the 1700s history has changed because the Borg went back in time to assimilate earth .

[@Merennulli]

@@cb-gz1vl Even in TNG she said *my people" when describing the ability to Picard in Times Arrow. Yesterday's Enterprise left it vague, which is probably what you're thinking of, but she spelled it out that it wasn't just her.

[@cb-gz1vl]

@@Merennulli No I'm thinking of Generations, the movie, in which she was split between our reality and the ribbon.

[@MakoRuu]

This is *a lot* of conjecture. The Q don't fear the Borg, they could wipe them out instantly if they wanted. But, they understand in the long game, tens of thousands of years in the future, the Borg become essential during the Temporal Wars and the return of the Iconians.

[@JamesMichael333]

“Watch…your futures end” best line in any Star Trek movie.

[@krzosu]

I dont think Q's are afraid of the Borg - if anything they view them as a nusiance - basically from our point of view they are omnipotent - but from their perspective there is the question of effort they put into doing something. For eg it's easier to stay away from poking the Borg (which may result in them doing some sort of incredible damage to the surrounding space or races - rather than then later putting the actuall effort in reversing it back. (keep in mind the Q view themselves as sort of guardians per say). So that aproach makes a lot of sense. In essence the borg can be that kind of nuisance that its literally not worth to poke them. but that's it. In essence one such poke can generate so much trouble that from the Q perspetive that it is just bothersome to deal with it later xD Basically they can do so but they view it as a chore thus they prefer to avoid it :D As evidence i present all the scenes where Q did interfere with borg and he did so without any visible effort on his part so if borg was REALLY a threat do them (Q's) he wouldnt be so dismisive about it. In the case when he said "dont provoke the borg" - he basically acted like a parent who was chastising his kid for doing something over and over even while he knew he aint supposed to because in the end it would fall on HIM to clean up the mess xD (which he later on admitted) Think of it as ripples in the pond - an interaction with other races creates a small ripple in the continum - interaction with the borg would result in a freaking tsunami in comparison - and then someone would have to clean up the mess - so it's best to avoid that in the first place as its just a needless chore to whomever would have to deal with it later. so it makes sense to chastise someone from deliberately making mess in the first place becasue that would be a mess that some ona has to clean up and that motive was visible several times with Q's - that one of them made a mess and then later on another one had to clean up - which irritated the Q in question to a visible degree (a good example was when the cloud aliens tried to kill the Q and another one Q revealed himself and stated as much as saying that he was tired of cleaning after the other Q time and time again). Or when Q was dispatched to deal with Quin in deathwish episode. He was visibly irritated that the continum chose him to deal with this situation (as he probaly would prefer to do something else presumably).

[@johnvermette9466]

I've always seen the Q's as being somehow, "chaotic neutral" !

[@beepboop204]

i also assumed he had a lot of paperwork to do when he messed with the humans.

[@gicking3898]

Only just watched this now, and it was mind opening for me. Thanks for making this video. I watched ST from tng 1987 ever since, yet this never occurred to me

[@vertigo2894]

Makes no sense. They can wipe them out with a snap of the finger. You mean they fear what the Borg might become in the future, but yet again, they can stop that.

[@LoreReloaded]

Guess you didnt watch..

[@vertigo2894]

@@LoreReloaded If the Q can whammy a fleet of cubes from the other side of the galaxy, they can destroy them.

[@charzanboo9940]

The whole delivery of "Don't provoke the Borg" from DeLancie's Q to his son was most likely meant for him as opposed to a general statement. I mean young animals of powerful species are still susceptible to predators (e.g., elephants, whales, etc.). Junior Q could try and be assimilated for fun and that could be a problem for the Q Continuum.

[@iconian1387]

"Junior Q could try and be assimilated for fun" I can only imagine Q waking up one morning and thinking, "Boy, I wonder if I should try out being a Borg today?"

[@zufieusagi7509]

Could a Q even be assimilated? If so, how bad do you think it would be for the universe as a whole?

[@nodiggity9472]

It reminded me of the scene in Fawlty Towers with a deranged, concussed Basil Fawlty saying "Don't mention the War"

[@JamesR1986]

which via Borg powers, could be the bridge needed to develop the power to assimilate the entire collective.

[@charzanboo9940]

@@iconian1387 In the Voyager episode "Death Wish," all the Q have been inanimate scarecrow and dogs, so not much of a stretch imo...

[@ironwarmonger]

This is very interesting, and become even more interesting if you consider that Babylon 5's original outline was written in 1986. Much of what you just described is nearly identical to the Vorlons, The SHadowns, and Earth relationship. The Volons were grooming earth to be the power that defeated the Shadows, which is why the Sol system did not lave an ancient jump gate.

[@Cassadinegirlaz]

There was a whole big controversy surrounding that at the time. Look it up its very interesting

[@tonoornottono]

watching babylon five after DS9 was trippy as hell. i loved it. fantastic show.

[@tangymilk]

Borg - “Resistance is futile” Q - snaps fingers

[@glamourweaver]

My theory has always been the El-Aurian perception abilities transcending linear time shuts down Q omnipotence with regard to them - like collapsing a quantum waveform. They may not be able to wield the same power as the Q but the Q are much more limited when interacting directly with them. It hadn’t occurred to me that the Borg would have assimilated this, but now that you point it out that does fit the narrative.

[@therealMattikai]

I had that same thought. I'm reminded of the episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" when Guinan could sense something was wrong when she encountered Tasha Yar. Reality shifted and she knew it, somehow...maybe that's why the Q didn't like/feared them. The El-Aurian could tell when reality was tampered with and could take actions to change it back.

[@douglasaranda2010]

I think that they actually have similar morals to the Federation, with a prime directive and a secret organization to "do the dirty work", and that Q is part of the secret one and decided that the borg was dangerous enough, but saw the Federation and got curious enough to test Picard and see what they were about, and decided they'd be a powerful ally if pushed in the right direction, so he made them an easier target to the Borg, who took the bait and left the Continuum alone, but then their version of a government disapproved the actions of the secret agent Q which led them to a civil war, not unlikely that would happen within the Federation. In synthesis, they are the same as the Federation, but with centuries more experience and evolution

[@treyalderan7137]

This is very plausible

[@chrisedmund335]

The Q are a race of tachers and in our Q's case he genuinely cares about humanity and I've always been convinced that the continum were guiding the federation for a reason perhaps a threat to the entire galaxy sort of thing

[@natedogg7376]

Wow. That would make a great movie plot. Entrenched in old TNG lore with familiar themes revealing new and startling truths. I've always been intrigued by BORG lore, where they come from and tying it to Q's is very, very interesting.

[@reynoldsVincent]

Fascinating. I've given the TNG pilot a lot of thought, but it is your video that seems to answer all the Guinan questions I've had for years. The two races have vastly different approaches, so I wonder now more than ever whether the Q are a load of bollucks or what? More of your ideas, please!

[@richardpage9474]

The only entity that Q would logically fear is Kevin Uxbridge, the Douwd. So would the Borg and anyone else who crossed his path when not in a benevolent mood.

[@Starbuckin]

I agree that Kevin could squash the Borg in an instant. I'm not so sure if he could do that to the Q.

[@richardpage9474]

@@Starbuckin No, but I would assume the Douwd would be more than capable of presenting serious threat to the Q. He's a dangerous being. Obviously there are more out there.

[@Starbuckin]

@@richardpage9474 Kevin also lied multiple times. He himself could also be a Q but I'm convinced in that fictional universe that he was just another powerful being just like Negelum that they met in that void and you may be right, they could be a threat to or at least be as powerful or moreso than the Q.

[@richardpage9474]

@@Starbuckin Oh yes, he could have been a Q. But I think you're correct. He's just another powerful being. I'm kind of irked they never mentioned it again.

[@CaptainPeaj]

Interested what you think about the El-Aurians from Generations who entered The Nexus. Could some still be in the Nexus with powers equal to the Q, or even precursors to the Q themselves?

[@CaptainPeaj]

The El-Aurians being precursors to the Q could explain the Q's fear/respect for the Borg, like a genetic memory of when the Borg almost wiped them out. Stretching a bit here too, but when Q and Guinan meet on the Enterprise, Q describes Guinan something like 'an imp, wherever she goes trouble follows'. To which Picard replies, 'You're talking about yourself, Q'.

[@haverberg]

Considering the prefix El was used in ancient Hebrew to denote God - God himself, not Ashera or Ball or the concept of godhood, but God himself/herself and Rodenberry's penchant for thrown god-level devinities into TOS and early NG I think there may be a mighty "tell" here.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Part of her is still in the Nexus. Where time doesn't flow. That might be some sort of anchor that protects her from Q and lets her sense chances in the timeline.

[@CaptainPeaj]

@@HappyBeezerStudios that's sort of what I was thinking. The ship she was on, if I remember right, was an El-Aurian refugee ship. If there's more than a few of them still inside the Nexus with the power the Nexus gives you to shape reality and travel to wherever you wanted, it could eventually lead them to 'become' the Q

[@JeffMcDuffie72MeridianGate]

@@CaptainPeaj how do i get into this Nexus ?

[@Darkwingdave5]

In the Peter David novel, Before Dishonor, Lady Q is told by a Borg Queen; "What we can study, we can assimilate. And we have had time to study you." And Lady Q quickly takes her leave.

[@enhydralutra]

Until Picard, my head canon about this was a little different, but there are similarities. Instead of a cold war between the Q and the El-Aurians, I imagined the Q simply avoided them. They were capable of seeing through the Q's tricks, and so the Continuum decided to ban their members from interacting with them. But Q was always ever a rebel and ignored the rule. He came to like the El-Aurians, much like he liked humanity. In fact, he grew particularly fond of one of them, a friend of Guinan. Guinan never trusted him, they were always at odds with each other. That rivalry became outright disdain when the Borg attacked ,and Q couldn't do anything about it. Because if a Q were to be assimilated, it would be the end of everything. But Q wasn't going to sit idly by, and plotted his revenge against the Borg using Starfleet, and we know the rest.

[@shadoman7682]

The thing with the Q is they could have been the very last race ever to evolve in the universe, even coming into existence at the very end. Their ability to time travel with a single thought, making them a universal race that exist throughout time and space. So they are both very young and very old as time itself is meaningless.

[@Thexbin]

I always wondered since the first Q episode. When Guinan first walked in 10 forward and saw Q she raised her hands on a defensive posture. This implies she thinks she could hold her own against Q.

[@joeg1915]

Voyager did a whole episode about the Q living forever and even how a Q suicide was unprecedented. Then in Picard Season 2 we have Q dying for no apparent reason. Am I the only one who finds this very confusing?

[@LoreReloaded]

Trek contradicting itself?! Glory be

[@segevstormlord3713]

Picard writers having no respect for canon? What a shock!

[@LoreReloaded]

@@segevstormlord3713 neither did tng nor voy writers

[@segevstormlord3713]

@@LoreReloaded You sadly have a point, but at least TNG and Voyager weren't trying to undermine TOS (and, in Voyager's case, TNG and DS9) in the process of "reinventing" Star Trek. Picard is sloppily written. DS9 was actually pretty good at continuity, and it had an arching story. TNG and Voyager...didn't, really, and thus get a bit more leeway for their episodic nature. Picard has nothing but a season-long plot in each season so far, and is bad at continuity within its own seasons. Let alone the awful representation of the beloved characters it brings out to trample on.

[@mrcydonia]

The Q lie.

[@Kalevra75]

Slight spoiler alert: It's an interesting theory, especially considering the dialog in the very first 2 episodes, and then further into the series when Q became angry when he and Picard were verbally sparing using Shakespeare and Picard said something the effect of "that's it, that's what's got you concerned....that one we will be like you". Q was indeed interested in mankind, but, as we watched through the franchise and especially in the last episode of Picard Season 2, he took a direct, personal interest in Picard. What started out as curiosity, turned into direct interest and then ended with actually caring about the race and about Picard. I was disappointed in how this wasn't explored further in the franchise and I feel the creators missed an opportunity to make a full length feature film around these two heavy weights (Q and Picard). The Q were just too interesting of a character(s) to not do so much more with them than they had. Same with the Progenitors in the books surrounding the TOS crew, especially Kirk, except you had a previous civilization that apparently seeded the galaxy (if not the universe) and that explained away the humanoid species that the crew usually encountered (which was a great plot device to explain away the lack of alien diversity to keep the story simple). The Q have so much more to offer in story and character and hopefully won't be completely forgotten if there is future Star Trek post TNG era in the time line. Hell, they could use a Q in Discovery now that the crew are literally almost 1,000 years in the future of their own timeline, so Starfleet would have records on them. And once there's a true crew for the Enterprise F, G, H, etc, there's so much potential there.

[@woodrobin]

There's several species that treat on the potential of humanity in particular to evolve into something godlike (if not all the Federation species). The Metreon (capable of casually flinging star ships across parsecs, apparently with an act of will) think that humanity might develop sufficiently to be able to interact with them in less than 10,000 years. The Organians think the Federation and Klingons are as they once were (and could become as they are) and are worth preserving from their then-current path toward mutual destruction. The Olympians were able to derive power and sustenance from human belief in their godhood, without draining or harming the humans. The Travellers noted that humanity was beginning to produce beings capable of interacting on their level of being (notably Wesley Crusher, who was able to transcend humanity under their tutelage). It's quite possible that the Q (or at least one Q in particular) saw that potential in humanity and wanted to guide them toward godhood, for purely self-serving reasons: a new species of godlike beings *that feel beholden to you for helping them achieve that state* becomes a useful ally. The Q don't seem to have a lot of allies in the current crop of beings on or near their level (the Organians wouldn't like their tendency to meddle, the Metrions definitely wouldn't appreciate it either, the Olympians have all pretty much given up on the material universe (at least according to Apollo), the being trapped in the middle of the galaxy has . . . issues).

[@norkvankats5416]

Pretty good - I enjoyed this video, makes a lot of sense and great potential threads for future stories … your logic doesn’t always have to follow … but great possibilities 😇👍

[@TeamDoc312]

I thank you so much for confirming what I've been thinking all along! I've been arguing these thoughts for years, and now I feel as tho they have not been for naught! Cheers, Doc

[@Lowilru]

When you brought up the Q having time travel powers, you reminded me that at least one El-Aurian has a power related to that. Guinan. She has temporal continuity awareness. She can tell when the timeline has been altered. And entire species being able to do this might have been the source, or at least a source, of antagonism between the Q and the El-Alurians.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

That power doesn't make sense. Either the timeline is self-consistent: Then any messing with the timeline can only result in events as they have always been. Or it is not: In this case, altering the timeline is really creating a parallel universe in which events have always been this way, while the original timeline remains unaffected. Proof: Without the original events, the alternative events would not be possible. There is no point in time at which the past of that point becomes a different past, so to anyone existing within that timeline, events have never been other than they had always been.

[@Lowilru]

​@@davidwuhrer6704 I don't claim it to be logically consistent, in terms of how time travel operates, but Guinan demonstrates in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that she is aware of changes to timelines. As such she knows that Tasha is supposed to be dead, and has a general awareness that other things are off/wrong. The details of this ability are never elaborated upon fully.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

@@Lowilru So Guinan spent all her life in the timeline where Tasha wasn't dead, but spontaneously decided one day that Tasha was supposed to be dead retroactively. The point when the time traveller arrives is the point from which on one can tell that the timeline has been altered, from the fact that a time traveller has arrived. Saying years later "Oh, the timeline has been altered" is hardly a sign of outstanding awareness.

[@Lowilru]

@@davidwuhrer6704 I mean, like I said I'm not saying it makes sense. I am only giving you the facts as they are presented in the show. Though she might just be sensing it from an outsiders perspective, somehow. Similar to how we see the show. The episode starts in the timeline we are familiar with, then the Enterprise from the past comes to the future and everything changes. When the send the ship back, history changes back to the one we the viewers are more familiar with. I dunno what model of time travel that even is. Or if I could even possibly make some new sensible model of time travel out of it, but her ability to notice that she's in that other timeline, some sort of closed time loop maybe? She can tell that she's in it. And ironically her ability to do so, to know that history has changed, influences them to send the ship back.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

@@Lowilru _> I'm only giving you the facts as they are presented in the show._ That's fair, and I'm not blaming you for anything. _> Though she might be sensing it from an outsiders perspective, somehow._ Now you're not making sense. Unlike the audience, which is shown a serial glimpse of parallel events, she is part of the events. It is up to the writers to decide if there is one of her in each timeline or if there is only one of her that communicates between timelines. _> I dunno what model of time travel that even is._ The multiverse model, the one with alternative timelines and Jason points. The one that serves as a plot point in _Back to the Future II._ A book on the "alternative timeline" model that I recommend is Stephen Baxter's _Timeships_ which is written as a sequel to H. G. Wells' _The Time Machine_ and explains why the time traveller never returned from the past in Wells' book. (It doesn't get every aspect of history correct, but that doesn't matter; the only aspect that is missing in my opinion is that the time traveller must exist while travelling in either direction, but nobody seems to notice or take advantage of that fact.)

[@LainK1978]

The Q do not fear the Borg. The Q don't want the Borg provoked because then the Borg will end up assimilating too fast which will lead to stagnation which will make things even more boring.

[@creatorsremose]

A few fallacies... 1. Contemporary Star Trek writers wouldn't know good writing from a urinary tract infection. 2. Immortal doesn't mean invincible. 3. The Q presented the Star Trek universe with the same problem that any god-like being does - omnipotence makes boring characters. When a character can simply resolve all their conflicts with a snap of their fingers, it makes them unrelatable and boring. That's why Mary/Gary-sue characters are considered writing faux pas. Which is exactly what the Q are. They don't only travel through time, they also manipulate the physics of the universe itself. To say that any corporeal race (including the Borg) is a threat to them would go against the very definition of Q. But, we do know that they're inherently bored (as if we can fathom the basic psychology of such creatures), so they might allow or encourage such things to happen. Which might add some Greek Mythology flavor to this poor writing idea.

[@joeg1915]

I’m not sure how one Q having an antagonistic relationship with one El-Aurian means that there is a rivalry or Cold War between the two species. I always thought that Q/Guinan scene from “Q Who” never made much sense.

[@LoreReloaded]

It’s literally stated in a Star Trek episode.. additionally the volume of work speaks to it :)

[@joeg1915]

@@LoreReloaded I must have missed that episode. Which one are you referring to?

[@athrunzala6919]

@@LoreReloaded The volumes of work are just going off the assumption Joe G mentioned here, to quote Kirk "You don't have to believe"

[@Tezunegari]

@@joeg1915 Star Trek Picard S02E07 "Monsters" Guinan had a bottle of liquor that stored the moment the Q and El-Aurians signed a truce to end their Cold War. Said bottle was also capable of summoning Q. As it is part of ST-Picard I discard this nonsense and live a better life for it.

[@aimeeinkling]

You have to see Picard Season 2 for it to become more concrete. There apparently was a treaty between the two species. Treaties are not made unless the the parties involved either have fought with each other or could fight with each other. I always enjoyed the scene from "Q Who" and hated that the Nexus crap appeared to diminish Guinan and her people.

[@bw2082]

No no no…. It’s just bad writing with inconsistent lore.

[@winwinmilieudefensie7757]

Like with all shows and movies😂 so annoying these “ fans” and their lore logic

[@user-cc3gi8fk7d]

This

[@johnklaus9111]

sadly. yep. hard to keep problems like this out when you have so many hands touching it for so long...

[@salemnights8236]

Yeah exactly, cause if Janeway and her beefed up ship could take out the borg then the Q could definitely do it.

[@user-om1pp5qe5z]

Yep, i agree. Writing to a certain scale when there is more happening outside in the rest of the universe

[@abbynormal5849]

What's terrifying to me is the possibility of more Whoopi!

[@jones81381]

Since TNG I've always had a thought in the back of my mind that the reason that DeLancie Q is so infatuated with humanity is that the Q were once human. Humans, or at least a group of humans evolved or otherwise ascended to something akin to godhood sometime in the far future but because of their mastery of time itself they have effectively existed since the beginning of the universe.

[@blackjacktrial]

Perhaps the Q are humans. Who travelled back in time and need to control humanity's Evolution and history. Humans are how the Q can fight the Borg with plausible deniability, perhaps under the thumb of something more powerful than the Q/Borg/Dominion/Galactic powers (Feds/Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians/Tholians etc.) They play the game out of necessity, not whimsy.

[@WhiteDragonTile]

That is my headcanon as well. The Q watch humanity with a certain mix fascination and disgust because that is what the were. Kind of like how we watch old photos of ourselves and cringe at the things we used to do or think were cool.

[@Squidbush8563]

Maybe they are what the Iconians became.

[@lesliejas]

The Q continuum has always been very interested in humans since Far Point, and perhaps even during Kirk’s time with Trelane (Q-Squared-great book). So, their connection to them is more than implied. I know one time someone speculated could the birth of the Q-continuum have occurred at the end of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. When commander Decker and Vger united they became something larger than life, seeming to eviscerate from existence while leaving the Enterprise behind. Even the crew realized they saw the beginning of a new life form, not a death. If that is the case, then the Q are humans, and the perfect mix of technological and biological distinctiveness the Borg so often try to pursue. Another theory suggested the Borg redesigned the Voyager 6 space probe into Vger. So, that too could show a connection with the Borg that fuels their desire to be more than a biological being. All cool theories, but I would love to see Star Trek substantiate them more.

[@briananthony4044]

Why would the Borg redesign the V6 probe into something so resource hungry and vastly more powerful than they are and have it collect information to return it to the Earth before they were aware of Earth.

[@CiaranMaxwell]

@@briananthony4044 "A planet of living machines." That is what Voyager VI encountered. The only "living machines" we know of in Star Trek are Data, Lore, the android built to replace Dr. Soong's wife... and the Borg. And none of Soong's creations did it because Soong hadn't been born yet. _Was_ V'Ger more powerful than the Borg? I don't think so. Keep in mind, it's implied that the humans develop new technology far faster than any other species they've encountered. _Enterprise_ managed to survive a single shot from V'Ger. Only one... but one more than the Klingon equivalent, the K'Tinga, could. More than a _fixed station_ could handle. If this _was_ the Borg, it's a miracle that _Enterprise_ managed to tank the one. As for motivation... keep in mind that the Borg changed quite a bit during TNG. The Queen, and thus the idea of one single guiding will overriding all others, was a later addition. It's possible that the Borg of the past weren't quite assholes yet. Or, maybe, they added something to V'Ger to send information back to themselves. It would be another way to explore the galaxy without risking lives. (The Borg, in their first appearance, did seem to care at least _somewhat_ about retrieving away parties of one drone.)

[@erubianwarlord8208]

my read was that it was a subtle tie in with the golden disks of Transfomers Beast Wars and that the planet Vger found was in fact cybertron

[@skittles7306]

After Picard, I theorized that the Borg Queen got her temporal abilities from the El Aurians assimilated

[@jamesbizs]

And when did they show temporal abilities ? Guinan can only do that stuff because of the nexus. Her species can’t all do that.

[@allistair61]

Definitely think the idea that Q would be grooming people like Picard to improve humanity could be an interesting idea

[@LordRunty]

It's well worth remembering that Q didn't introduce humanity to the Borg. Even ignoring Enterprise and Voyager's contributions with the Antarctic crash and the Hansens. The first sign of the Borg was in the season 1 episode 'The Neutral Zone' where something has been destroying outposts. Later we learn it was the Borg. They already knew all about humanity, Q just showed humanity what they were facing in a relatively controlled manner in Q Who.

[@willrawls5899]

The Borg probably know of the Q from having assimilated other species that have encountered the Borg. They have just not to my knowledge had a run in with the Q yet and I think the Q are being careful to not let that happen because they could possible be assimilated. The Borg can assimilate non corporeal beings. For example species 802, the Medusans from TOS season 3 ep. 5. This is seen in Star Trek Prodigy when Zero, a Medusa, is almost completely assimilated by the Borg. So when it comes to the Q fighting the Borg… who knows what would happen. If the El-Arians (enemies of the Q) make the Q nervous and the El-Aurians have been assimilated by the Borg, there are probably more powerful, and more dangerous species stronger than them the Borg may or could assimilate to defeat the Q.

[@Gadmeer]

Lol omg that argument is super weak, the Q are literally infinitely superior to the borg, el-aurians, medusans, and species 8472 combined. It’s sort of like comparing the Husnock to the Douwd.. to which the Q are still far greater.

[@jhoughjr1]

I clicked so fast I travelled through time.

[@mikehall7189]

When Q said ‘don’t provoke the Borg!’ I always interpreted that as it would throw the balance of the universe into disorder, not that the Q were scared of them.

[@TheColleenDabeanShow]

No matter how advanced your species - the borg only need to assimilate a few select individuals to gain a great advantage over you. They instantly gain a full understanding of what those individuals understood - and disseminate that knowledge to their entire population immediately.

[@ThatBillmanGuy]

I have had the exact same thoughts. Along with Riker never got the Q powers taken back. He still has them. There's dialogue sometimes or a look he'll give in later episodes or movies that back me up somewhat. Generations: "Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever..." yeah, cause you're a Q. Riker is the exchange officer for the Klingons, why not the Q as well? Riker is the one they use to watch the Enterprise, as referenced by Q in "All good things..." Riker is a witness Q calls during Quinn's asylum hearing. Riker is the emissary to determine if humanity can do what they need. And he proves himself. Riker defeats the Borg and outwits Picard as Locutus in "The Best of Both Worlds."

[@travislynch5316]

I always felt that the Q were not so scared of the Borg themselves, but of what the Borg Queen could become. more emotional and Human like Borg. If Humans could one day reach Q lvl, then maybe the Borg Queen could also and have such a huge army to start assimilating Q's.

[@AccessAccess]

Back in the days when TNG was airing some of us theorized that the Q were humanity's future, or that they were hyper-evolved humans who became godlike in some circular fashion. So while it seemed like they were toying with humans or manipulating them, in reality they were trying to push humans to evolve and grow so that they (themselves) would evolve into Q and hence their own existance depended on humans both existing and continuing to grow and evolve. The final episode of TNG also seemed to support this theory, or at least mean it could be feasible.

[@jotham777]

Q is Picard’s very real protector, despite bluster. Now, that development in the story and character arcs took some time - and for certain, I’m sure that was never a thought during the writing of “Encounter at Farpoint.” But it moved clearly in that direction with “Tapestry.”

[@predcon1]

It's hard to get into a serious discussion about this when I can't put it out of my head just how hard the writers flew this show by the seat of their pants.

[@Nightmare-cr3iw]

I agree 100%, however I think its fun (not to mention a great mental exercise) to try and piece the puzzle together. There is no answer, it wasn't thought out enough in the first place. BUT its cool to see what neat things you can make with the parts.

[@jurigagarin3966]

Exactly

[@roadbeef]

@@Nightmare-cr3iw your pragmatism enabled this frankly positive exercise, I admire your dodging of an otherwise cynical approach