The truth caused a mind shift that led me straight out of Christianity - Brandon

Today I spoke with Brandon, who grew up in a Christian environment, believed in and loved Jesus, memorized large portions of the Bible, and wanted to make his life count for eternity ... until his search for the truth caused a mind shift that ultimately led to his deconversion from Christianity.
We discussed many topics, including:
• Seeing the cognitive dissonance of Christians who were compelled to share the Gospel but the majority actually lived as if the mundane details of their lives here were the main focus.
• Memorizing thousands of verses for Bible quizzing and passionately reading the Bible to know the Yahweh character better.
• Realizing the depths of the indoctrination that occurred during his childhood.
• Experiencing his parents' mixed-faith marriage, and then later facing his own mixed-faith marriage.
• Admitting, as a Christian, that it seemed like god was hiding, but how that drove him to pursue god even more.
• Hearing a leader in church prophesy that he, Brandon, would do signs and wonders for the Lord.
• How Christian guilt and shame puts people into a mindset of constantly second guessing themselves.
• Facing the purity culture message that sexual sin is the worst possible sin, in the context of the preachments that the body is beautiful, that god designed sex, that it is better to marry than to burn in lust, and yet that a godly person does not focus on sex and eroticism.
• Feeling like you're never doing enough for the Lord, especially in the area of evangelism.
• The emotional process of preparing to respectfully share our reasons for deconversion with our Christian spouses yet knowing that they may respond with fear and anger and perhaps start to punish us as retribution.
• Dealing with the existential dread of losing the afterlife but realizing that living for eternity, even in heaven, would actually be torture.
• Working through how to protect children from a mythological worldview and the psychological abuses of Christianity in the context of an "unequally yoked" marriage.
• The importance of pursuing the truth, no matter where it leads, even if it strongly challenges our current worldview.
Thanks to Brandon for sharing his story!
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Connect with Brandon:
/ @mindshift-brandon
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Tim may be reached by email at: [e-mail]
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Thanks!
--Tim
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Ending music by Eyal Raz, "Friends"
• Friends
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[@somersetcace1]

I've raised three children and been an atheist my whole life and I can tell you what I did. I taught them how to think critically. I didn't attack religion or spend much time discussing theism and atheism with them, especially when they were young. I simply taught them how to think. They had questions I gave honest answers, but always with the caveat that they need to think these things through themselves and decide what they think about it. When they got older, I told them I wouldn't judge them for anything they were compelled to believe, so long as they understood what they believed, why they believed it, and could at least formulate an argument for it. None of them are theists. Make of it what you will.

[@treefrog3349]

You, my friend, are an admirable anomaly.

[@marlenemeyer9841]

Thank you do much for sharing this! I assume your children are all decent humans as well. Religion tells us we can’t know how to be good without believing in a God. Just the other day I was discussing why I no longer believe in the bible and was asked…..”how do you know it’s wrong to kill if God didn’t tell us?” Are you kidding me!!! How offensive. We need to teach children HOW to think not WHAT to think!

[@bradzimmerman3171]

Exactly the way it should be-any second encouraging religion is child abuse

[@tomrippen6570]

@@marlenemeyer9841 You’re right, Marlene, and religious fundamentalists are more likely than other groups to advocate for violent solutions to societal problems. They see themselves as victims under attack.

[@PortmanRd]

"We need to teach children HOW to think not WHAT to think." Well said Madam. 💐👏 UK

[@melbied6215]

As a woman raised conservative evangelical, I do not understand why women are so much more likely to stay in the religion. It is so much more harmful to women than men. It was actually the birth of my daughter that finally forced me out for good. I could not raise her in a religion that told her she was worth less than her brother. Just could not.

[@bacicinvatteneaca]

Part of it is a vicious cycle of culture and biology (biology begets culture, culture drives selection) that leads women to be more passive in general, but I think most of it might be sunk cost fallacy: the fact that they're suffering more because of religion is specifically what's preventing them from admitting it was all for nothing

[@James-ms2mx]

Jesus wanted the children to learn from him. Then Paul comes along and says grown women don’t even have this right. They can’t speak in church or even ask questions. What???

[@Disappointed739]

There are, I think, two reasons people stay in Christianity despite its messiness. One is the comfort it offers, and the other is t he social group that it offers. For women, the tendency to be more emotive in makeup than men provides a third reason, which is the opportunity to emote to god and to profess that they possess other warm emotions. Nothing is unethical about any of the three attractions, but they are real. Take a look at the intensity of the songs that are sung, and the ready made social settings, and the offers of protection from harm. It is right there, I think.

[@Disappointed739]

​@@James-ms2mxUh, you missed Mary at the feet of Jesus. Her sister Martha gets rather beat up over it all.

[@James-ms2mx]

@@Disappointed739 Paul must have missed that too

[@sarahshannon9561]

I feel like I need to give some encouragement to those who have deconverted and remained married to fundamentalist evangelicals. My husband told me he was having doubts just days before our wedding. He identified as agnostic by our first anniversary. He continued attending religious services with me for the first three years of our marriage, but he very clearly would not partake in communion. He tried to demonstrate respect for my views, not wanting to take that foundation away from me. I continued attending fundamental churches, finding a new group with every cross country move we made, but I both respected his doubts and felt like I had to double down on being “the believing wife” to cover him in the sight of God. When we got pregnant with our son eight years into our marriage, things came to a cross roads in how our differing views would affect our parenting. We both struggled with that for many years, but we opted to teach him both ideas: both a religious view and a secular view and let him have all the information we could provide him for him to make his own decisions as he grew older. I am so glad we did that. I can proudly say that my son is a well rounded human with great respect for others and their choices in life, able to give space for other viewpoints and allow them to exist in this world alongside his own agnosticism. I also have come to a realization of the problems with the fundamentalist view of worshipping the Book as much as God. This realization of idolatry on the part of conservative Christians has led me to the path of being truly honest with my beliefs and doubts. My husband’s example in caring about my spiritual welfare in spite of his own truth has been highly instrumental with our relationship being stronger and healthier than ever. My goals have shifted to trying to give back so much of what he gave up in his own life to express his love and support to me. Keep being honest and living your truth. It works.

[@Remkay7]

Brandon is the smartest non theologian deconvert I’ve ever seen, glad to see this!!

[@blazedas4451]

Hes so switched on and seems well read it crazy that it took him so long yo see the light, but thats what can happen when everyone around you are christian. He should have had a heart to heart with his old man, we need a Brandon's dad interview!

[@thegametroll6264]

If you haven't already his channel mind shift and Brandon's bookshelf are well worth a subscription.

[@chadmccoy8032]

For sure. He can sling some scripture.

[@user-ls8ks7kv8c]

Unfortunately he seems to have hidden/deleted all of the videos in his Brandon's Bookshelf channel, which is unfortunate because there were some wonderful gems there like his library tour or breaking down the Harvard Classics@@thegametroll6264

[@CJoyArt]

I was a Christian for 35 years and a woman in a bible study once told me that Jesus was in the room watching while I was being molested (for YEARS) by my father. That was the beginning of my deconstruction. It took years, but I eventually disentangled myself from the beliefs I held so dear. I still to this day can't believe she said that to me.

[@Aussiepride_12]

And look at that this Jesus either enjoyed watching it or he was powerless to stop it,the correct answer is he doesn't exist.either one of those answers makes someone walk away from Christianity

[@iw9338]

That's horrible 😮I'm sorry you suffered that awful abuse 😢

[@CJoyArt]

@@iw9338 thank you for that. It's the gift that keeps on giving. My son is estranged because of my father.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Tim, thanks again for this amazing conversation. I had a wonderful time and really appreciated getting to speak with you!

[@scofah]

Great interview, Tim and Brandon. Thank you for sharing your stories. An additional thing I find so interesting (about indoctrination, religion, and de-convertion) is the business aspect ("follow the money," the grift, the product they're selling to solve a problem they created!). Because someone benefits monetarily, and it's not the little guy giving away a proportionately enormous amount of their income. And the little guy is also groomed to cast votes for politicians who weaken their public schools, defund health care, vote against Medicaid/Medicare/social security, bust unions, overarm the police ("copaganda"), harm the environment, perpetuate gun violence, and take away civil rights & voting rights. The twisty way billionaires use right-wing wedge issues and talking points to help elect Republicans so they'll vote for more tax cuts for billionaires. It's part of the point of churches. Maybe not your lanes...but I see it clearly. Brandon, I've been really off Sam Harris lately. The interviews (I've listened to him trying to defend himself against claims he is blind to his own racism), are so discouraging that he cannot just say he is wrong. To learn more about this, I recommend The Bell Curve video by KZbinr Shaun. It's fantastic. Then listen to Ezra Klein's interview with Harris. It's always good to be skeptical. It doesn't mean I throw out everything Harris says, but now, I take most of what he says with the knowledge that he can't see past his own privilege. He won't. He just won't. And that perpetuates a lot of problems we're still having beyond religious indoctrination. Keep up the great work! 👏🏾👏🏼👏👏🏿👏🏻👏🏼👏🏽

[@Remkay7]

I think you’re ready for Mythvison podcast soon Brandon 💯

[@icypirate11]

@@Remkay7 We. Are. MythVision.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@scofah appreciate all of that!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@Remkay7 would love that!

[@cryptocurlss8460]

I discovered Brandon a little over a month ago!!!! This is the type of skeptic content that I wish I had a few yrs ago!

[@tezzymai5076]

I love the honesty and simple humaness of this conversation. As a teenage girl (many many years ago) it was never explained to me that I could also have sexual feelings, only that I was responsible for holding boys off (double the guilt because I was currupting the poor boys to!). I have often wondered how a healthy rounded education of sex would have changed my life and self respect. My memory of being a christian is one of guilt and shame and I'm relieved to be free of that. Even tho I am many years free of religion now, videos like this and deconversion stories in general have helped me heal and understand and forgive myself, slowly chipping away at the damage I didnt even know was done.... so thank you, keep up the good work, you never know how many people you help even in small ways ❤

[@denisestarr2314]

I studied my self out of Christianity too.

[@mariareyneke9953]

Me too but I am not a Atheist

[@theplanetruth]

Me three.

[@hcho7776]

13 Message to Agnostics & Atheists Thursday, November 18th, 2010 @ 21:00 To those who claim not to believe in Me, I have this to say. Ask yourself this question: Can you remember a time that you did? Think back to when you were a child, when you did believe in God. It does not matter what religion your parents followed. Did you believe? What changed? Was it influence by others? Did they tell you that there was a rational answer to your being in existence? It has, since the beginning of time, been difficult for My children to accept any other existence outside of this one. Yet look around the world and see the wonders of the Creation by My Eternal Father. The sun, the moon, the sea, the rivers, the plants, the animals and all the wonders of Creation and answer this. Where did all this come from? Do you really believe it emerged from something other than a Superior Being? Be warned when you hear the lies, spread by so-called fortune-tellers, that exist in the New Age Movement. They are being led into what they believe to be the truth and the excitement of the life promised to them in a new era. This era, to which they have been led to believe is a new paradise, a form of man controlled, but glorious centre of the universe. It is a false doctrine. Many people of God, including those who believe, mistakenly confuse their belief in this doctrine with that of the Light. They are being guided by the demons. Some know that they are. Others don’t. Pray that they see the Truth, before they continue on their futile path to emptiness. To the atheists, I say this. I love you no matter how you offend Me. To the atheists, who are being led and influenced by other beliefs, stop and think. In their quest to follow manmade reasoning, they are simply believing in another faith. The belief that man is in control. He is not. Yet these same people, My precious children, for whom I will fight, are being encouraged to follow Satan, the deceiver, and enemy of mankind. Ask the atheist, who goes to extraordinary lengths to pressurise God’s children, why he does this? Is it not enough to simply deny Me? Why do these people lie? Many of these atheist groups have an agenda to entice and seduce My children into a false doctrine. Make no mistake their belief is another form of religion, a religion that exalts the power of intelligence, reason and pride. They emulate the very traits of Satan. They, in their blindness, follow another faith - the adulation of the dark, where no love exists. So passionate are these atheists, so proud of their religion that they do not understand, that what they stand for is a religion - the religion of the deceiver, who laughs at their stupidity. Atheists, hear Me one last time. Turn back to the Scriptures, now. Look at the Book of John and consider the Truth as it begins to unfold now. Does it not seem real to you, now, as your bear witness to events, as they are laid bare, layer by layer, each day, before you? Can’t you see that My Word, My prophecy, foretold so long ago, may be the Truth? Open your eyes and talk to Me, once, as follows: “God if You are the Truth, reveal to me the sign of Your Love. Open my heart to receive guidance. If You Exist, let me feel Your Love, so I can see the Truth. Pray for me now.” As I call on you, one last time, I say this. Love is not made by man. You cannot see it, but you can feel it. Love comes from the Eternal Father. It is a Gift to mankind. It does not come from the darkness. The darkness that you feel is devoid of love. Without true love, you cannot feel. You cannot see the Light. You cannot see any future. I Am the Light. I Am the future. I bring you glory and life ever after. Turn, now, and ask for My help. Do that, and I will answer you and envelop you in My Arms. My Tears of Joy will save you, as you become My beloved child, again. Come now and join Me in Paradise. Your loving Saviour Jesus Christ

[@johngrimkowski598]

@@mariareyneke9953 what are your beliefs?

[@MLeibs]

Yes. It’s the hypocrisy that bothers me the most often. The blatant hypocrisy. Also the smug self righteousness. And the eagerness to judge and condemn. The duping delight in being unkind, cruel, abusive, and misogynistic. Not to mention the insane fiscal grift. The perpetual money flow… the greatest legal, tax-free con of all time.

[@Scorned405]

Exactly

[@lnqxr]

Eloquently stating the truth. 😁

[@lostandfound3999]

I was never happy as a believer in a christian god. They say christians are happier people but that is pure bs.

[@Fourwindsofsuccess]

Yes from observation most Christians have insecurities, low-self esteem, misanthropic (disliking humankind and avoiding human society),jealousy, condescending, irrational, and resentment. I have grandparents who were saved since ‘1974’ now they are both 80-81 years old who ended up picking poverty over wealth. They worship their pastor as a grand wizard or like he’s a demigod too but they are in full blown rejection of it. They are always calling someone or anything in the world “the devil”. It’s sad that they assume because time has evolved, technology came around, and there’s a better today than 1960 they are delusional. Severely indoctrinated. It’s like a lost cause to where I don’t bother.

[@Ronnymikkonen2686]

It's hard. I really tried. Of course I was happy. But it started to be difficult. You really get tired of it. Witness to people and nobody understands! Years in end!

[@lostandfound3999]

People don't understand because he Bible is full of made up stories, not even the Christians understands the whole bible although they think they do. So many different interpretations of the same story is just brain washing

[@agreeablegraylife]

Made me lose my mind.

[@lawrencemurray568]

Great content. Christians cannot seem to fathom that (for many of us) our atheism grew out of a sincere search for God. The closer you look; the more god & religion reveals itself as an entirely man-made construct. To quote Tim, "once you see it, you cannot unsee it".

[@TheMahayanist]

Yeah. Christianity is just Platonic philosophy wrapped in Jewish mythology. That's all it is. Like he said, once you see it you can't unsee it.

[@douglascutler1037]

Bible says donkeys talk. Science says no. Shut the Bible. But you still have nature. Look to nature now . . . as best described by direct experience and science. Astronomy says TRILLIONS of galaxies. Just imagine it, if you can . . . the sheer wonder. And now not so certain big bang came from nothing. Maybe infinitely recycling universes. Meanwhile, unmapable complexity in the subatomic heart of every atom, within us and without us. Maybe the meaning of existence can never be put into words but there is something here, all around us. Something you can still connected to in special moments.

[@XalpeN16]

Exactly. Most atheists were believers at one point.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@@TheMahayanist it has a lot of similarity with platonism but you cannot be reductive in calling it "platonic philosophy" for one thing, we don't believe that creation is a poor imitation of another existing somewhere else.

[@dmichael100]

Exactly. The question for me- after 40 years of committed evangelical Christian belief, is there a genuine supernatural deity that has revealed himself or not? Any honest, sober look at life in real space and time makes it clear that he does not exist. Biblical theology studies up to the PhD level clearly showed me that the bible is (as you put it) a man-made construct. It is time constrained and historically-contingent- therefore, not supernatural. Once I had the courage to see that- the jig was up.

[@samanthac8655]

Another great interview! I discovered Mindshift about a week ago and have been binging his channel. Keep up the awesome work Tim and Brandon!

[@kathywalker7778]

I have a long story, as most all who have deconverted. My marriage of 35yrs was toxic and I told my husband that if he was going to seriously work on things, he needed to know that my views on the church had changed. Then and there he said we were done. Hard after so many years, and promises, and also having adult children who are no longer Christian, but I knew he couldn't be unequally yoked. He never even asked how my view had changed. No regrets, we're both better on the other side. Thank you for this video!

[@zatoichiMiyamoto]

Yeah, you denied the only thing that could make you attached to him, unquestionable dogma. Good for you.

[@JohnDoe_0000]

He was relieved to find what he could consider a valid reason to finally bail. He didn't care. Pretty obvious.

[@craigharrison8136]

I have 16 grandkids who are being deceived. I is really hard to sit back and watch it happen!!!

[@kimsteinke713]

Hey guys this is the gay grandma 63 years old are young. Y'all are doing a great job I saw your videos and I just love y'all everything you're doing is so great but I want to say. You know he said that that guy prophesied over him when he was young and how harmful it was that you'll speak to people in a drought land well it did kind of turn out true if you think about it😂 because y'all been a blessed to me and a lot of gay people in a drought land I don't know how much more drought a year and can get for us gay people hanging out here waiting for the pastors to save us but thank God y'all came around Love y'all Cherish y'all Y'all are the true brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ❤😂

[@GreatOwl99]

Being an atheist doesn't mean we came from nothing. I cherish the birth of my son who was created from his dad and me his mom. although my husband and I are no longer together, my son and I continue to be a family. My son and I do not go to church and we are nice caring people. We are grateful for all we have and the people who care about us.

[@kathrynyoung3362]

I’ve heard Christianity referred to as an anti-sex-cult. I think that the level of fear and control around sex in conservative churches is so damaging.

[@moonectar]

You're blowing my mind! I forgot how much of an intricate imaginary circus I was involved in when I was an Evangelical.

[@deannapowell7237]

I love Midshift. I watch on Sunday mornings!! It's my new church. 😊 It's my new SEARCH .....for truth. I love the way it makes me "keep thinking".

[@markmckeen5124]

Tim, Just my opinion, this was your best effort. Fantastic guest and superb questions. You did a terrific job. Brandon, it was great hearing a more complete scope of your life's journey. Very sincere and your communication skills are top Shelf. Good luck to both of you on your channels and in your lives. 2 final comments: To me, you both showed your vulnerability and honesty when you described your current marriage/family situations. It's obvious that you love your wives and kids and that you're doing your very best to deal with an extremely difficult circumstance. Very inspiring. The last 10 minutes, when you both gave your final thoughts, was You Tube watching at it's very best. Mark in Michigan

[@Innercalm88]

I love both of your channels.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you!! I really appreciate your support. --Tim

[@johnp717]

I totally agree.. both of these channels are great

[@rainbowkrampus]

I enjoy Brandon's channel. He goes into data and stats more than I've seen from pretty much any other YT atheist. Personally I love sociology. So that kind of thing is right up my alley. Cool to learn he's a fellow distance runner. While I don't do it anymore due to an injury, I can totally empathize with the itch he must have not being able to run for a year.

[@southernmanners1306]

I’m so excited to see this interview…Brandon’s channel has been my lifeline through this crazy deconversion process. Glad to see other’s are now discovering him as well!

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Yes! Brandon is awesome and has been such a help to so many in the community.

[@southernmanners1306]

@@HarmonicAtheist and I should’ve added that you have been a wonderful voice of reason for me as well. It gets lonely when you’re the only one in your family that sees the emperor is naked. Thanks for being a community for me and others like me!

[@boojackson7133]

Great conversation. Mindshift is my absolute go to channel

[@healthyselfwithkristi7459]

Mine too! Proud to be a Patreon supporter of his channel.

[@TonyLambregts]

Great conversation. Brandon sincerity is so refreshing. Thanks for the upload.

[@Emanuel_carey]

Two titans! Hell yea. Thought it was a Sunday mind shift video… this is awesome

[@DennisJones-de6rq]

Gentlemen of courage and seekers of truth. Good show.

[@jameswheelock1799]

The issue of sexuality came to me when a non christian that I was dating casualy asked me" why do Christians think sex is so dirty?'"

[@mrmaat]

Because Paul did. Paul’s radical apocalypticism, possibly influenced by Hellenistic attitudes toward sex, and potentially even Paul’s personal heterodox sexuality (see “thorn in my flesh” discourse) meant that Paul and the early Pauline Christian’s adopted the sex-negative attitudes that have varied through most Christian variants through today.

[@reesecup3ify]

Not just Christians, almost everyone. Sex can be dirty and a way of spreading disease, especially gay male sex. That's like asking why are nurses so obsessed with hand washing. Besides, what kind of societal anarchy would we live in if men were just running around having sex with, raping, and impregnating women at random and leaving them to take care of children alone while fending off other men. Monogamy protects women and children.

[@reesecup3ify]

Not just Christians, almost everyone. Sex can be dirty and a way of spreading disease, especially gay male sex. That's like asking why are nurses so obsessed with hand washing. Besides, what kind of societal anarchy would we live in if men were just running around having sex with, raping, and impregnating women at random and leaving them to take care of children alone while fending off other men. Monogamy protects women and children.

[@LifeInTheLastFane]

I’m imagining shouting, "demon I cast thee out of this wicked soul - be gone in the name of Jesus!" in response to that question and having a laugh.

[@Mr.PeabodyTheSkeptic]

Two of the smartest atheist content creators out there. Thanks for your advocacy

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement! --Tim

[@onedaya_martian1238]

@@HarmonicAtheist More encouragement to both of you (and for the algorithm)

[@paulhanley5811]

oh my gosh , I thought growing up in Ireland a catholic in the 1970's was hard core , its not a patch on what Brandon had to put up with , I'm in awe of you mate , keep on keeping on , all my best wishes

[@michaelmartin8129]

Like yourself Paul I grew up in Catholic Ireland in the 60's and the 70's. But considering the amount of child sexual abuse, child rapes and physical violence perpetrated on children by Catholic priests I'm glad that I wasn't one of their child victims. I put this down to being poor working class, poor enough to be passed over by these child rapists who ensnared richer "cleaner" children. Those unfortunate children suffered so much from these priests. But remember Paul, the last thing the Catholic Church in Ireland wanted was people reading the bible. The clergy were the ones who would dispense the bible at mass. Ordinary people reading the bible would only be trouble. That mindset of the church and the clergy perhaps saved us from the worst that organised religion and the Catholic Church would inflict on people.

[@starrynight6817]

Yay! Love to see two of my favorite KZbin content creators together. Great video!

[@Faith5883]

What happens after death? We don't have a choice lol Whatever happens will happen no matter what you believe. Your journey will continue in this life, in your beliefs. You will always learning something new if you keep an open mind. Mine has not stopped since leaving religion and Christianity.

[@meridianheights6255]

This was hard to watch. These guys seem to be doing alright considering the circumstances. I want to show my support. Hang in there guys. Thank you for sharing your stories.

[@ryangolden3243]

Why is it hard to watch? I just started it

[@litew8]

Being raised in a fundamentalist Christian environment leaves so many scars that we will all be dealing with for the rest of our lives

[@denisep9497]

I had that assurance of god-growing up talking to him, and he was walking with me even though I didn’t hear back. I also saw it as him testing me. My plans were “His”. It’s crazy to look back on now that I’ve seen it from the other side.

[@icypirate11]

1:24:59 Consistency is key. I've probably watched every single James White debate and my one take-away that ended up causing me to leave Christianity is _"consistency, consistency, consistency"._ He pushes _consistency_ and _equal standards_ in every single debate. When you actually apply those standards to presuppositionalism and the Judeo-Christian faith as a whole, it is no different from any other religion or religious claim. You can't be consistent and weigh evidence fairly if you have cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and assume/assert various unsubstantiated claims.

[@TheMahayanist]

Uh huh. That's partly why I left. WLC used to talk about how Christianity is supported by the evidence and science, when I realized it wasn't that pretty much was it for me.

[@MikesChannel1108]

​@TheMahayanist I used to watch Lane Craig debates. I used to watch all the debates I could find. The debates are what led me away from Christianity. I wasn't a super Christian at the time. Mostly just into research and learning. What I saw in the debates was horrific to my skeptical faith.. The Christian's top scholars and professors never win.. These debates expose Christianity more than anything to me. The pastors used to tell us to build our foundation on Jesus.. Once you look into it, you realize there is 0 evidence. It doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Christianity can be picked apart by smart children. It's all fear based disguised as love. As a kid, I figured all the grown ups that came before me figured everything out.. Then when I became grown, I realized they've got nothing figured out. The Christian debaters are destroying Christianity.. Watching Lane Craig get smoked in debates over and over was not a good thing. Listening to his mental gymnastics has probably turned a lot of Christians away from Christianity. I still believe in a God/Creator.. I just don't think God is anything from the Bible. Tovia Singer was my favorite debater. Watching a Rabbi take the top Christian scholars and professors to school was super entertaining. Christianity and Judaism are so different.. I can't believe people actually believe Christianity and Judaism are in the same boat..

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@@MikesChannel1108 disagreed i don't like apologetic debates and it's not like i watch a bunch of them but usually WLC's argument are better and more informed than its opponent. The opponent simply use some emotional fallacy and thinks he has rebutted an argument.

[@ewhite3691]

I have found that the key to deconstructing Christianity lies in understanding what narcissism is, how narcissists are created and how they operate. The inconsistencies that you see in faith holders can be made sense of by realizing that they actually are very consistent in terms of selecting the ideas that suit them while simultaneously condemning others for doing the same. The mental acrobats believers will engage in are simply pathological. Christian narcissists, grandiose and covert, have very low self-esteem which is rooted in core beliefs about sin and brokenness. You can be spiritual without believing in the Bible but atheism is a good place to work from. Why engage in speculation about other supposed divine beings when the only thing you can know for certain is that YOU do in fact exist.

[@SeeTheTravisty]

That’s ironic because I’m 4 months out of a 3 year relationship with a bizarre constellation of Covert Cluster B / Atheist Marxist Sociologist. She’s also German and has a German Superiority complex… Imagine that. In my experience , Narcissism is more prevalent on the left. Professor Sam Vaknin just did a video on the study that displayed Cluster B personalities tend to gravitate towards social Justice movements. Entitlement also comes to mind.

[@ewhite3691]

@@SeeTheTravisty Two sides of the same coin maybe. Definitely superiority complexes and entitlement were observed by me during my four year venture into the Christian world. A guy I knew since high school spent over 20 years trying to convert me. I was looking for a change and was wanting to get married to a good woman so I decided to accept what he had been telling me. Got baptized, was going to church, married a Christian woman, but was then rejected and belittled by all the real Christians because apparently I still wasn't as good as them LoL. But they sure didn't have any problems with using me and my stuff for their own personal gain and enjoyment.

[@redraven_the]

What a great conversation! Thank you both very much.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you!!

[@tomrippen6570]

An open mind is essential for understanding and discovery, and the process is liberating. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your pursuits.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Tom! I appreciate your support. --Tim

[@milima6694]

This was an awesome video with two awesome creators! Thank God this interview took place :D

[@letahamilton]

So excited for this interview! I’ve been waiting!

[@themuffins4]

Brandon's videos are changing me and my husband's lives. It's crazy yet ...good...it's good to follow the truth no matter where it leads

[@26beegee]

Divine hiddenness is huge. I truly believe people who claim God spoke to them are either overtly or subconsciously making it up. As a mother and grandmother if I could have a do-over I would not raise my children with any religion because they are all cults. We cringe at the thought of the children who died with the Branch Dividians, Scientology is abhorrent to most but, really there is no difference between them and any other religion. Teach your children to think critically and question everything. Love your channel Brandon, if your children think like you they will do well!

[@TheMahayanist]

There's no difference between Zen Buddhism and Scientology? That's a claim.

[@26beegee]

@@TheMahayanist If you involve an imaginary, mythological figure or are being segregated from the normal world in any way there is no difference. People make distinctions based solely on what we have gotten used to accepting as more normal. They are still cults, just normalized ones.

[@simongiles9749]

Whilst we have no reliable evidence for gods or spirits, we do have reliable evidence for auditory and visual hallucinations. I know where my money would be on what is really happening when "God speaks" to somebody. Note that even the Biblical prophets indulge in a lot of fasting and sleep deprivation in remote places before getting "divine revelations".

[@TheMahayanist]

​​@@26beegeeI don't see how. Mythology, as long as you recognize that it's mythology, is fine. Like Star Wars, or Harry Potter. Also not sure how you can be "segregated from the normal world" there's only one world right?

[@Fourwindsofsuccess]

It’s a grandiose severe mental disorder. The ones who claims god spoke to them or they saw “god”. It’s a delusion tbh. The whole speaking in tongues or Holy Ghost are all extreme placebos.

[@K_Rae_Bee]

I've been so excited for this! I have so much love and respect for both of you!

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you so much!! I really appreciate your support. --Tim

[@camillehendricks9819]

I’m petrified, I’m so scared I’m going to die . The idea that God will give you some catastrophic incident in order to bring me back to the faith is so wild…😭😭😭

[@desireedebellis6766]

its called RTS, Religious Trauma Syndrome ,, 1 in 3 suffer from it

[@OublietteTight]

Ever have a night of sleep where you do not remember dreaming? Such nights are as calm and quiet as dying without a heaven. For me there is no fear of oblivion. I fear some wacko unbalanced deity kidnapping my conscience, forcing his/ her concept of eternity on me. A dark nap sounds soothing to me. No hell, no pain, no jumping hoops forever.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@EddieYT1202 you don't fear your dad when you do something bad? Or fear the police if you ever commited a crime?

[@lesliemccann628]

Great podcast, I so appreciate both of you

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you, Leslie!! --Tim

[@letahamilton]

Both of you make great content.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you for your support!! --Tim

[@davidreyes19201]

Yo Tim! I found your channel thru Brandon’s channel. Your story about deciding to not circumcise your boys resonated with me. My wife and I did the same thing with our boy for the same reasons. Hearing you say that was a turning point for you just opened my eyes because looking back, my son’s birth was a turning point for me and I never saw that moment as the moment I opted out of the Christian faith. 🤯 thank you both for sharing your process with us. It is super helpful 🙏

[@merbst]

Brandon is a brilliant light for the KZbin community. I didn't know that he was into Ultra running! One of my longest friendships has been with an ultra-marathon enthusiast, who celebrated his & his wife's completion of the Wasatch 100 (in Utah, finishing at the summit of Wasatch Mountain) with their marriage ceremony.

[@Gary-zq3pz]

One day a Bhuddist street preacher gave me a pamphlet that said 'Inside you'll find who pays the full price of your sins'. There was a small mirror in it. Took years for me to really get it. So I'm headed down the Bhuddist path because of years of thinking it over.

[@paparazzi.IndianFootball]

Damn! That was deep afq

[@bacicinvatteneaca]

Did you know that stupid people tend to be more affected by pseudoprofound statements?

[@justincase8532]

DON'T. Just drop religion!! Its the biggest legal hoax in the history of mankind.

[@Thumbelina298]

Brandon is brilliant!!! The New Kid on The Block 🥳 I love his videos. And Tim, the ever gentle and amazing host!!! Time for Kristi Burke!!! Pleeeeease...

[@KELLY-maybeWeCudBeGirlfriends]

Thank you Brandon for coming on the Harmonic Atheist! (plus having your own channel! Thats Awesome!) BTW- I was involved in JBQ growing up also. I don't know if it was a Midwest thing or an evangelical, protestant thing or what(?) I have lived in Iowa since I was 6 years old, but I was born in Chicago. I also went back to Chicago to compete in JBQ. But anyway, I apricate you sharing your story and I appreciate you Tim for having Brandon on your channel and asking him really good questions. Thank you both ❤❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

thats amazing, maybe we were there at the same time. Thanks for the kind words!

[@stevenhogenson4880]

If it wasn't for "the shame game" churches wouldn't exist.

[@paulhammer1363]

I studied my way out of Chrisianity, when I began I reading the spiritual literature of other religions. I discovered Buddhism and Hinduism, not to mention modern day writings such as The Four Agreements. My life/marriage improved 100%. when I left fundamentalist Christianity.

[@missinterpretation4984]

I’ve just been looking into Buddhism and it’s blowing my mind.

[@christopherknight3737]

Wonderful conversation, thank you both so much....

[@GreatOwl99]

I'm an atheist and I do not have an agenda to be sinful. I never want to harm anybody.

[@sidstovell2177]

Lacking the afterlife, I clicked over 88 years recently. I sleep with peace as a lifelong atheist, who practices loving-kindness in the Theravedan Buddhist tradicion. Thanks Tim and Brandon for this very interesting conversation.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Sid! I appreciate your encouraging words. --Tim

[@toonyandfriends1915]

you still believe in myths

[@laurentackett9399]

I love both of you guys so much! this was great! id love to hear another with brandon

[@juba9575]

Thank you for the fantastic interview with Brandon

[@stevenhogenson4880]

The being married to a believer after becoming an atheist: I am in that situation (and both of us come from a Lutheran background). My wife will experience life challenges, and go in to the "What does god want me to do?" or "Why is god doing this to me?" I usually just keep my mouth shut and don't try to convince her that god doesn't exist. Life happens and the only person that can decide what to do or rescue you, is you. I tried at one point to say "if you just stop believing that an imaginary invisible sky Santa even exists or is going to help you, you'll find things go much better." To which she said "I can't...." And there it is.

[@vladgor4099]

" You'll find things go much better " " Imaginary invisible sky santa " thats unfortunate. Hope you come to truth before its too late.

[@stevenhogenson4880]

@@vladgor4099 I DID come to the truth. My hope is that you finally will to...and Christianity ain't it.

[@vladgor4099]

@@stevenhogenson4880 God and Jesus is absolutely the truth. The ultimate truth. The purest truth. Also how do you know you came to the truth? You’re just a clump of random molecules and cells that have no meaning or real order. How do you trust your thoughts or anyone else’s? What do you base those thoughts on since they’re completely random. Every action you do is randomized and has no meaning behind it. What do you base your morality on? I know you have morality because I do. But I get mine from God. Where do you get yours from? Who are you ( a clump of meaningless randomized cells that evolved from lifeless sludge ) to tell another clump of meaningless cells that what they did is wrong? Do you think you have the right to tell hitler he was wrong? Or a rapists that he shouldn’t rape? If your answer is yes then why is it yes? What gives you the right? You’re just as meaningless and random and insignificant as them, who said that you’re right and they’re wrong. I’m sure the Nazis thought they were right, are you the one to tell them they’re not? You see.. your entire existence goes against that same logic you try to use to disprove God. It’s saddening. Especially since I can see you’re getting up there in years. Your entire existence is at stake and you can’t just listen with an open mind and maybe pick up the bible and read it cover to cover a couple times and digest it. Read about Jesus and what he did for you and the promises he made. Read about the powers and principalities that are at play and influence you. Read about your possibility of salvation because you are not a good person. You are a major sinner, just as me, just as everyone else in the world. Which is why you will die, and then you will be judged. But because you had no faith and chose to reject the free gift of salvation, you will be judged on your works. And even if you committed a single sin you will be found guilty. So why don’t you accept the free gift of salvation by admitting that Jesus is lord, died for you on the cross, and resurrected after 3 days and will come back again. Then that will change your life because you will develop a relationship with God, and you will want to do good things and you will understand why you do good things. Where the urge to do good comes from. The source of all Good, all Justice, all Holiness, all Love, the all mighty God.

[@thedarknessthatcomesbefore4279]

​@@stevenhogenson4880well said.

[@jasonhumphrey2512]

I have recently discovered your channel and content, great stuff.

[@merarieloise]

Wow this was an incredible interview. I was recommended this video as I have been binge watching Mindshift. I love what you are doing with this channel and I can’t wait to watch more of your videos. The deep dive into peoples personal stories is content I really resonate with and I think is so important. I haven’t found a chancel or videos quite like this and I am so here for it. I loved your bit where you shared an example of something you have said to your child about a father drowning their children makes them a bad father, referencing Noah’s ark. I believe 100% it’s our responsibility as parents to be able to point out good and bad behavior, to show kids how we morally reason, how to think critically, how to discern. I am open and vocal with my daughter about religion because she asks about it. We live in the Bible belt and she has a right to know why we don’t go to church like her friends do.

[@charllaholman]

I love this episode!❤

[@montagdp]

Thanks for this interview. I'm one of the lucky ones who deconverted at the same time as his wife. There's still a lot of anxiety regarding if and how to tell the rest of my family and church friends, but I'm so glad (blessed? ha) to have her on the same page. I have a lot of respect for you both to have the intellectual integrity to not "fake it" despite the adversity. I think my parents are going to find out anyway regardless of whether I try to hide it or not, so I'll be watching your videos (both you and @MindShift) about how to tell people.

[@bradgoldman5053]

I get such a comfort watching you Guys. I can so relate in all the areas that you have discussed. It would be nice to have a sit down with the both of you sometime, maybe in the future. Thanks for your testimonys

[@drzaius844]

As an exvangelical from way back, I made sure to marry an atheist. I feel for you guys and your families. So much shared here that resonates.

[@pjdelucala]

What got me out of Christianity was the pain of Christianity. Thoughts of hell, sin, punishment are all painful especially when you assign them to your friends and family as well.

[@gratefulandthankful4ever]

It because the truth hurts

[@pjdelucala]

@@gratefulandthankful4everJohn 8: 31

[@harveyangel4534]

Thanks for sharing this truth. Good job

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Harvey!

[@iluvtacos1231]

The mental image of opening a laptop with adult content on in to start cranking it in the physical presence of Jesus will stick with me for a while.

[@markmckeen5124]

Was brilliant indeed. Really hit home with me.

[@QuestionThingsUseLogic]

So exciting to see you two together here!!

[@melindad180]

"...Christians wanting you (a x-christian) to fail..." Praying that "God will shake you up and do *whatever it takes* to bring you back to him". Yep.

[@PortmanRd]

Just tell them to take a running jump off the nearest cliff. Don't worry! Their God will save them.

[@melindad180]

@@PortmanRd 😅 "have f a i t h"

[@wizquinn8021]

Great conversation!!!

[@neilcoleman1573]

Thank you for being so open and putting your personal details out for all to hear... an inspiration to those of us who have been questioning for so long but couldnt break away because the indoctrination has been so strong . . hearing your story is so uplifting and I wish I had been able let go of the false narrative years ago , but better late than never!! I admire your courage to stand up for yourself and question the beliefs that were imposed on you. Your story is empowering for those of us with like minds and food for thought to those who give it a listen but are still brainwashed. Now that I know your background it makes sense to me how you know the bible so well and have been able to connect the dots that debunk the false system of Christianity.. keep up the good work and Thank you for the background , I think you are awesome!!

[@davidstirk4732]

Always struggled with the irrationality of the Bible and its double standards for God. Used to take solace in the 'Lean not on your own understanding' verse. When i started listening to Christian Apologists arguments v atheist arguments on KZbin it was abundantly clear where the truth was and where the deception was. Am so much happier not being a Christian.

[@tomlaflamme6815]

Listening to him was exactly what I was feeling maybe I’m not feeling it or maybe they have something I don’t ??? Totally get that

[@monicagermany]

Coming from a very similar background, it’s amazing to hear such similarities and rational/critical thinking. I studied myself away from religion as well. Thank you for sharing this, definitely needed this today.

[@PaulTempesta-id8wr]

Great job to both of you! The honesty was fantastic

[@brucee6524]

Towards the end when describing how others still in the faith reacted to your deconversion, what was missing in my mind was any reference to the parable of the prodigal son. I’ve always felt this parable basically disproves Paul’s “blood magic.”

[@mr.c2485]

New to your channel. Love it!

[@user-ty1lm2cc9y]

It is very helpful, comforting and strengthening. 😊❤ I’m going through it now. #Dont_take_my_senserity_away! ❤

[@gatewaytobeing]

I think it's enough to let your kids know that you encourage them to explore any options they are drawn to, and choose for themselves. As a former Christian, that's what I did with my boys, both of which are mostly agnostic. Personally, I landed in the SBNR camp (spiritual but not religious). I have little respect for religion or the Bible, but I 100% still believe there is a Divine Creator and that consciousness is eternal and survives without the body. If you listen to the thousands of NDEs (near-death experiences) that are here on youtube, it becomes nearly impossible to think otherwise. Peace all!

[@TheMahayanist]

There are many explanations of NDEs that are out there and eternal consciousness isn't the only one.

[@Melissa-is-a-Raincloud]

Ndes are what really drove the nail in the coffin for Christianity for me!

[@livelaughlove1221]

​@@Melissa-is-a-Rainclouddid it drive you away from Christianity?

[@Melissa-is-a-Raincloud]

@@livelaughlove1221 ndes are not what initially drove me away from Christianity, but they provided more confirmation for me that I made the right choice turning away from Christianity.

[@holliehilton3224]

Brandon is very kind and gets it. Thanks for this interview!! Tim, I reached out to you via Insta but I don’t think you ever saw it. I had a couple of questions. Thanks for what both you and Brandon are doing for those of us who are asking the right questions and setting ourselves free.

[@VioletWonders]

You and Brandon have helped me a lot. Thank you for your work!

[@PortmanRd]

Sense will always prevail. Great stuff. UK

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Agreed! Thanks for your support. --Tim

[@Ronnymikkonen2686]

Great discussions. I really appreciate it. Best wishes to both of you.

[@johnhavel7685]

The thing you guys were talking about with getting your ideas really fleshed out when you have children that’s something that also contributed to me starting to question stuff a great deal more. I don’t have kids but I figured at this point I would have been married with kids on the way and that I needed to as a man who is biblically supposed to be the leader of his household that I needed to start working toward a consistent and coherent view to be able to lead my future wife and children with. I can only imagine how much more I would have felt that if I was married with kids because I totally agree with you guys I want to do my very best in leaving behind those things that I experienced and break the cycles of for lack of a better word abuse and neglect. I don’t want my children when they finally come into being to feel ashamed of themselves the way I have or to go through traumas like circumcision as you pointed out and all manner of other things we experience in life to our detriment. I want my children to be able to hold onto the beauty in life and be kind and curious and wonderful and not be burdened by shame and guilt and fear for simply existing and having experienced awful things at such young ages and ongoing through their lives. It’s I think the most important thing we as humans can do to break the cycles of trauma for the next generation and that’s how we’ll eventually get to a world where maybe there won’t be war and hunger and human trafficking and murder and rape and all the other awful things that exist but it starts with us and what we teach the next generation.

[@joyiasells4810]

Great conversation Tim and Brandon!

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you!!

[@davedavenport8673]

This is the first video I have seen on this channel and won't be the last. What a great conversation. It was likely recommended because I had recently watched some of Morman Stories Podcast, so a similar vein. I am curious if you have interviewed anyone in the CCM community who have deconverted. I know Ojo Taylor from Undercover is not a believer and has done a few interviews regarding it. He is quite well read in philosophy and theology. The topic of being a mass market influence on young impressionable minds seems like something that could be discussed, along with a deconversion story. Maybe you are shooting for more regular people on this channel. I will find out as I watch some more. I spent 35+ years in Evangelical Christianity and now about 15 out, and many of Brandon's thoughts here resonated with me. Maybe not to the extent he had with being an MK and memorizing scripture, but his overall feeling of questions not being answered to a degree that made sense. Thank you to both of you for the work you do. Getting information out there to be taken in when people are ready for it is important. I don't see a need to evangelize agnosticism or atheism to anyone, but having well thought out information and real world feelings and thoughts about the process is very helpful to people who have questions. The issue of indoctrination of children is troubling though, as that is what I experienced.

[@grayintheuk8021]

Great video thanks for sharing.

[@jeffwatkins352]

The youtube “red line” indicates I watched this interview before, but I must have only started to be distracted before finishing. Fine chat as expected. I’ve watched a number of Brandon’s videos, all of them packed with information and insight. I fear, however, I may have given offense by rather tersely answering someone’s comment (not Brandon’s BTW) on my comment. Wish I had more funds. I’d be supporting you both on Patreon. Oh well. When my ship comes in. Sheesh, it’s taking its sweet time!

[@austinshaw6269]

Brandon, thank you for what you do. As a person on the fence myself you are showing me a side of unbelief that I’ve never seen. I will never be able to hear Christians the same, and as much as that scares me, I know I am a more learned and open minded person because of it. Thank you.

[@chadmccoy8032]

When my son turned 8 5 years ago I watched my friends kids being baptized, I was terrified for my son because he hadn’t. Healthy ponderings. My son now believes in God and I am happy for it, BUT I am ecstatic that I didn’t yank him out of bed and take him to church. He has a chance to have faith in god in his own way and I am not worried anymore.

[@6Haunted-Days]

Sorry don’t pretend your viewpoint had no effect on him….it had a MASSIVE effect….so let’s not lie to ourselves…..but most xtians are awesome with that.

[@chadmccoy8032]

@@6Haunted-Days ok

[@cybergrail]

Thank you for another excellent interview!

[@gracemacfarlane1841]

Another great interview. On this journey with you xxx

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Grace! Please feel free to add me on FB and to reach out if you'd like to consider an interview. facebook.com/harmonictim

[@Claudi333]

Great show!

[@Cuffsmaster]

Great job guys, keep it up..

[@LoganAddisMusic]

Hopefully Brandon can see this. Please research the Peptide BPC-157. It's a natural occuring peptide in the body that when supplemented can exponentially promote healing of most bodily injuries. I also had a messed up Achilles from running and it helped tremendously.

[@stevecrozet306]

Well done Brandon and Tim

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Steve!

[@anti-theist]

Good show, guys! Congrats on getting out of the cult.