Review - The Last of Us Part II

[@MihaSith]

It’s a pity that the game didn’t tell us about Ellie’s sexual orientation.

[@souetrejeremy]

That's the main issue, they were just hindered by having to pretend to tell an actual story between the lines of what felt like a patronizing and militant tract. What a mess.

[@AzeimFriday]

She's gay btw.

[@billybatts8283]

The original game never. I played the original ps3 version, there was zero suggestion Ellie was just a plot device. It was not until later with the ps4 version and dlc, you know the start of the Cuckmann years and that popular line "Ellie has always been gay..." Because 14 year olds being raised in a totalitarian city under strict control with a dwindling population and risk of human extinction would have the knowledge to be aware of that and not be imprinted with the staggering importance of population growth.....

[@Christrulesall2]

Ellie's gay by the way.

[@rommelthedesertfox3089]

@@billybatts8283in the dlc is was shown she was gay

[@riceman00]

Never forget that Amy Hennig, one of the lead writers responsible for many beloved Naughty Dog properties, was “forced” out. A literal female writer, brilliant at her work, forced out so they could cram in the Neil Suckmann special story to subvert expectations.

[@johnohrstrom5112]

She was let go around part 1. Nice try though.

[@Maxx________]

@@johnohrstrom5112that doesn’t make his post any less valid

[@gordons-alive4940]

Not exactly subverting many peoples' expectations at this point, but yeah, that sucks that that happened.

[@PerfectHandProductions]

Her writing in the Legacy of Kain games is some of the best ever featured in a video game.

[@drownthepoor]

I love The Last of Us Part 2. I wanted to hate it, but I love it. I love it DESPITE the purposeful subversion that Druckmann put into this game. He did it because he wanted this game to be part of the on-going culture war, and he's openly expressed so without hesitation. The thing that pisses me off the most is the fact that so many fans of the game think people hate it because of their own personal views, and refuse to acknowledge that the creators intentionally made it to alienate those people. Abby honestly ends up being the most likable person in the game. She wanted revenge for her father. But the worst part is making Joel out to be selfish and wrong for saving Ellie which was the most important concept of the first game. And even worse is having Ellie despise him for it.

[@alrightsure9941]

Fun fact you can use all the weapons you want inside churches, but you arent allowed to use weapons or damage anything in the jewish synagogues.

[@ryman1933]

👃

[@DerWeisskunig]

⁠@@ryman1933Every single time…

[@bustywaifus]

That can't be real.... right?

[@infinite8382]

yeah, the synagogue scene in TLoU2 didn't feel forced at all...not!

[@MrTruthandlove]

Every single timeowitz

[@zkilla2924]

What I hate is the complete retconning of the Fireflies. The first game made it pretty clear that they were mostly scumbags, apart from Marlene. Joel brings Ellie to them all the way across the country, and they basically go, "OK, so that girl you love as a daughter? We're going to kill her in this experiment. Also, you don't get to say goodbye or even see her ever again. Also, we're going to keep all your survival equipment and weapons and march you out into the zombie apocalypse with nothing, a death sentence-that is, if we don't just shoot you in the back once you get outside." Then, in the second one, they're a bunch of amazing people acting like Disney characters, saving zebras and sparing old men. Oh, and even though the apocalypse started in 2013, everyone apparently talks and acts like current-day college kids. Cuckman getting full control of the story ruined everything.

[@Ishaan_A]

I would say the depiction of some fireflies as being good could have worked given the execution of the story. The game does it the cheap way by showing Abby's dad simply rescuing an animal while Abby is cutesy with Owen. Instead they could have shown Abby and her dad's relationship in more detail, how they are battling with Marlene and her men with the Fireflies's methods of operation: not allowing them the resources they require to rescue survivors they find and instead often looting them and leaving them to die, causing fights with FEDRA which doesn't accomplish much and those unnecessary expenditures of their resources can be used to help make their own QZs to keep people safe within (which of course brings its own sets of issues with corruption and crime in them). The audience should have first empathized with Abby and understood her motivations and love for people around them, which then makes the reveal of Joel telling what he did in the Firefly hospital to Tommy (in the actual beginning of the game) much more emotional, seeing what Joel's actions directly did to someone else's life, someone we started to grow to understand and like. Beginning the game with Abby and seeing her kill Joel without knowing the reason was a stupid decision imo, and the empathizing of her character later on definitely doesn't work as Naughty Dog expected to.

[@xEvilRaptorx]

You're right they ARE the Disney of the universe... they put a nicer looking mask on for the second game. But at their heart they are still the same ppl you saw in the first

[@username.exenotfound2943]

also another thing, in last of us (might have been removed hence what you mentioned retcon) turns you can explore the area and find a room where you find out there have been other immune and they STILL couldnt make a cure(which would be imposssible anyway) so they have been killing kids all this time for no purpose

[@LUCKO2022]

That is because Druckman didn't want you to like Joel in the first game and was pissed how everyone liked Joel. Neil has openly said he hates Joel and thinks Joel should have let them carve up Ellie.

[@LUCKO2022]

@username.exenotfound2943 It was a tape recorder message, and they removed it in an update. I remember it in when I first played the game when it was first released in 2013, and then it was removed.

[@TheRocco96]

Never forget that Naughty Dog and Sony abused KZbin's copyright strike system to censor youtubers who talked negatively about this game in the weeks before the release.

[@blacyc]

It was because of the leaks, which shown the full gameplay of a game

[@TheRocco96]

@@blacyc Channels who didn't show the leaks but just talked about it were also hit with copyright strikes.

[@blacyc]

@@TheRocco96 that is what i am saying

[@MundaneThingsBackwards]

@@blacyc You literally said something completely different.

[@lkeane3591]

Talking about leaks is not a legit Target of the copyright system. They abused it, it was wrong, and they damaged people's income to do so: scumbag behavior.

[@Maladjester]

My favorite quote on this game is Alex from Angry Joe: "People praise the game for its bold writing. You know what? The writing *_is_* bold. Killing a beloved protagonist like a bitch in the first few minutes, presenting his murderer as an admirable hero we're supposed to want to play as, and presenting the other beloved protagonist as a psycho murderhoboing her way across the landscape *_are_* bold choices. Absolutely none of it works on any level whatsoever, but it is bold."

[@jackmesrel4933]

Angry Joe might be a hack most of the time, but he has his moments for sure

[@nothajzl]

@@jackmesrel4933 i'm repeating what you said here, but the dude has his moments

[@billjacobs521]

@@nothajzl Both of you realize that he said Alex said this, not Joe himself, right?

[@Maladjester]

@@billjacobs521 Joe is getting by on blowing out the sound levels with *_ARE YOU OUTTA YOUR MIND_* twice an episode. Other Joe....well, no shade to the guy, but I just don't care what he thinks. I wish it was the Angry Alex show. He's the smartest and most articulate of the three on the rare occasions they let him talk. If he were the main character, I'd watch every episode instead of the maybe four total I've seen.

[@TheRok]

I like Alex, but I don't know what's "beloved" about the former protagonist exactly. The Last of Us Part I clearly showcased him as an utter selfish asshole who's more than happy to murder innocents if it means that he gets a few crumbs to sustain himself in the apocalypse, and won't hesitate to sacrifice humanity if it means he can save someone he likes. With that said, all this isn't exactly new to Naughty Dog; their age-old protagonist of their previous franchise is basically a thieving murderer too. And Naught Dog isn't alone in this glamorization of thieving murderers; Rockstar is downright built on the glamorization and airbrushing of theft and murder. And yes, yes, "it's just a game/movie/whatever," but ... Alex did say ... "beloved protagonist," and it really got me wondering, exactly WTF is "beloved" about him? SPOILER ALERT: But don't get me wrong; just because I maintain that Joel is a fuckin' thieving murdering asshole, this doesn't mean that I'm okay with an even [more] obnoxious butch of a character murdering him only to become my fuckin' protagonist! What a shitty mechanic to shove in the player's face.

[@topcat59]

It’s also ridiculous that there’s a pregnant woman among them who still goes out in the field risking both her and her future child’s life.🐱

[@RichardPhillips1066]

In a culture where protecting children is vital

[@billybatts8283]

Females can't fight the whole game is ridiculous.

[@AverageJoe483]

Well the left sees it as a “ clump of cells “. So it makes sense to them .

[@Hongobogologomo]

Wolfenstein 2 had that too. Was also a woke game

[@RichardPhillips1066]

@@Hongobogologomo young bloods was even worse

[@DOOMStudios]

“Ellie’s gay by the way.” My favourite line in this review lol.

[@TheSupart91]

😂😂😂 forrealz

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Wait ... Ellie's gay? 😂

[@supertenor2767]

Google The Last of Us: Left Behind

[@Chris-gw2xg]

@@supertenor2767Yeah we know nothing knew but this game just throws it in your face every time, its stupid

[@anthonyf616]

She was gay, Ellie?

[@night1952]

But everyone already knows that vengeance is self-destructive, that's why most revenge stories are about people who have nothing left to lose, meanwhile Abby and Ellie had stuff to lose, that's why so many people can't relate to either of these characters. Examples of satisfying revenge stories are The Punisher, Kill Bill, John Wick... All people who had lost everything and revenge was the only thing they had.

[@phrozac]

Disagree. Abby and Ellie both lost the centers of their lives, their fathers. Abby not only lost her father, but her entire way of life as Joel also destroyed the Fireflies and their mission of saving humanity. That's a whole lotta reason to seek vengeance. Ellie saw Joel murdered before her very eyes. Also, a whole lotta reason for vengeance. I can relate very easily to both.

[@RhysCallinan-cq5re]

I think it's fine, built in reality it's stupid that you let Abby go.

[@night1952]

@@phrozac I don't, they both had people supporting them and their revenge quest only caused pain to said people.

[@Force_Of_Habit]

The japanese reviews of this game were the stuff of legend. Allow me to quote some: "Everyone in the development team should die" "A game about right and wrong made by people who think they're always right" "They make fun of a cult yet make you walk through a sinagogue" (lmao)

[@iHaveTheDocuments]

And this is part of why the Japanese make the best games

[@LamiNalchor]

what's the point of the synagogue?

[@leoncca]

Did a Japanese journalist really wished them to die!? Which one was it? That's mental

[@EndThusIAm]

The second quote is poetry!

[@Ankhtowe]

@@LamiNalchor Look up who is funding all of the degeneracy some time. Take a shot every time you read -berg, -stein, -baum, or -witz.

[@G-flo]

4:51 "And thus the hero of the Arkham games trilogy, one of the most beloved video game protagonists of his generation, voiced by the legendary Kevin Conroy-dies a sad, miserable, pointless death, lying bound and helpless on a park bench, while being given a morality lecture by self-insert Sweet Baby Inc writers, and having done absolutely nothing of value."

[@AFCN7]

Can't wait until the Suicide Squad review comes out in a few years and quotes this ad verbatim

[@mikoto7693]

I hope it’s out by the time I’m here, now.

[@tentinquarantino876]

​@@AFCN7Yeah, if servers will still work in those few years (they probably won't)

[@joelpierce1453]

As you can imagine, I identified very strongly with Joel in the first game. When I found out he dies at the beginning of this one I lost any interest in playing it, especially when I found out you also have to play as his murderer later in the story.

[@joelpierce1453]

@Krypto121 Everything I've heard about the game since then has confirmed to me that I made the right decision.

[@RhysCallinan-cq5re]

And the bitch that kills him is allowed to escape, cuz "revenge is bad" and whatever. Yeah no that's dumb, letting a woman whose friends you murdered live because she'll definately not try to kill you in revenge later. Meanwhile Ellie lose fingers and her so called girlfriend. What a depressing shitty game that shits all over the first game.

[@mr.s9783]

@Krypto121Simp harder

[@s.sradon9782]

@Krypto121 I've seen better games made by a 16 year old, here they had millions, years, an established franchise and violated hundreds of human rights.

[@JZStudiosonline]

I'm not even upset that he died, or that you play as Abby. I'm upset that he dies in a fucking stupid way and Abby sucks, along with everything else in the game. I think it would've been way better to start the game as Abby either as joel is running through the hospital, or afterwards and then you follow her along the revenge mission. Like, those scenes are already in the game, just out of order and poorly done because everyone on Abby's side sucks. But like, you could've actually started with the character, not necessarily agree with her, but then at least get to an understanding which would make the eventual confrontation more tense around whether or not Abby actually kills Joel. As it is, the only possible intention is they wanted you to see it from Ellies perspective so it's sudden and brutal, which is basically the inverse of what I said, following Ellie instead of Abby. Like, conceptually it works, but it was so poorly done, the dialogue sucked, the characters sucked, the way events happened sucked.

[@noneed4me2n7]

I was grateful to whomever leaked the plot for the second. Cancelled my pre order and never looked back. Thanks Neil.

[@kaj7135]

They saved us from an absolute waste of time and money. It only panders to shitlib feminists who don’t even play any games, which explains why shitlib journalists say it’s a masterpiece.

[@dennisnissen5485]

Same here 😅

[@shirokatatsu5886]

The leaker should be held as a hero of generation

[@oukie666]

Same 😂

[@traviso7810]

Then you missed out on one of the greatest games ever, your loss.

[@jasonmcgregor123]

I really think Naughty Dog messed up by continuing Joel and Ellie's story. The fact that we didn't know whether or not Ellie believed the lie at the end of the first game is one of the main things that made that ending work so well. The sequel does a huge disservice to that ending by providing us with an answer. Would have much preferred if the sequel was a story set in an entirely new location with new characters. Maybe even give us a glimpse of how people outside the states dealt with the virus.

[@theniceguy7824]

They knew using previous characters would generate more hype and money. What they didn't expect were the leaks and backlash

[@jasonmcgregor123]

@@theniceguy7824 While it is true that using the previous characters definitely generated hype, I think Naughty Dog really missed a grand opportunity to craft another amazing story set in the same universe. I don't think the writers or the company understand that it's okay to tell a great story without doing a follow up. Joel and Ellie's story should have been a one and done thing but it just made too much money to be left alone, which is unfortunate.

[@dontmatter4423]

@@jasonmcgregor123 honestly, the drinker's alternate plot idea of abby working with ellie and joel until the end of the game where she finds out their true identity sounds like a far superior narrative. you preserve the "revenge" message as well as the characters and build their relations

[@jasonmcgregor123]

@@dontmatter4423 I agree. It does make for a better story. Would've been easier to empathize with her character. It also would've been so easy to implement, since Joel and Tommy were the ones who saved her from the horde.

[@paulemge9156]

Any of the Drinkers suggested sequel ideas would be much better

[@sapr76]

18:38 : "Wouldn't any of these scenarios provide a more optimistic, emotionally satisfying finale?" - YES!

[@CyberChrist]

Muh #GrimDark.

[@DaneofHalves]

"I've never trusted Klingons. And I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy." -Captain Kirk

[@szeltovivarsydroxan9944]

"Use the Force, Harry" - Jean-Luc Gandalf

[@dougbrooks2501]

Time is the fire in which we all burn-Angry Sting

[@KnowYoutheDukeofArgyll1841]

"Ah Kirk, my old friend. Do you know of the old Klingon proverb that tells us that "Liver is a dish that is best served *warm* with fava bean and a nice Chianti! Th-th-th-th!" Khan Noonien Hannibal Lecter

[@DaHighTechCave]

DTA Don’t Trust Anybody-Stone Cold Steve Austin

[@dy031101]

The fact it took questioning his dedication to Starfleet to get that "Let them die!" out of him is testament to his character.

[@JACorvin]

Can we talk about how they robbed Joel of his survival instincts? Why on earth would he tell them his real name? Why would he let himself be in a situation where he’s surrounded by unknown people with Z E R O guess as to what their intentions are? Was life in Jacksonville so good that he somehow forgot all about the previous 20+ years of survivalism? Absolute bullshit.

[@Faxie83]

It was needed for the plot to happen

[@true1158]

Ellie’s 🌈AY by the way

[@Matt-416]

"Robbed Joel"... enough said. It's the same feeling that The Last Jedi gave me.... So many options with amazing characters and this is what they chose?

[@sunderpanda]

He didnt. Tommy told them. Replay it or rewatch it and you'll see Tommy told them first.

[@Leprechaunmonkey101]

When you say put himself in that position you mean the thousands of infected that chased him and Tommy into that position 😂😂

[@RUINERx117]

I worked at Gamestop when Last of Us Part II came out and I got to a point where I was begging and pleading with people to buy the cheaper pre-owned trade-in copies (because they could be returned if you didn't like the game), but so many people would buy the brand new sealed copies (which can't be returned due to US software laws), and I had multiple people come back ANGRY about the game, and I just shrugged my shoulders and game them their $5 because the had so many copies traded-in the game was absolutely WORTHLESS when it launched. Pro-tip: Buy on Steam or pre-owned at Gamestop for the best video game return policies.

[@Seyanoo]

Funnily enough that’s what I did, got a pre owned copy because I didn’t bother looking up the leaks cause I wanted to see it with an unbiased view point. I such heard the game was split amongst people. Played it and returned it a day after I got it.

[@seriousblurs7996]

Gamestops staff usually does that no matter what game though. Suss.. :)

[@JZStudiosonline]

Steam has a 2 hour refund period, that's not that good.

[@narata1541]

When IGN gave this game a perfect score, I was thinking this game had The Message in it.

[@blowfish1702]

Ignore the ratings from IGN, utterly meaningless, instead look for the games they label "problematic" that's where you'll find the gems 😂

[@ThatGuy182545]

@@blowfish1702No, don’t ignore them. They’re actually a very good way to sus out shitty games. If they give a good review you know it probably sucks. 🤣

[@eanderson9599]

Drinker’s suggestions as to how to story should’ve played out was 10 times better than what we actually got

[@MidsBeHittin]

Literally all of them

[@namelessfire]

That’s because Drinker is a competent writer who cares about craft.

[@phantombigboss8429]

we would gotten actual character development.

[@ssplif5415]

This game was told in the perfect way

[@alwaysright3943]

@@ssplif5415Suuure

[@SammEater]

Joel from Last of Us 1 would never be dumb enough to: 1. Surround himself with strangers in a closed space with only one exit 2. Tell these same strangers his real name

[@xtlm]

Well, men are dumb. Don't you know? Kinda became standard after 2015 and the first game was before then.

[@butter2254]

1. His brother introduced them. 2. They were in a building they knew very well. 3. The blizzard and infected outside gave Joel and Tommy no other choice but to be stuck with those strangers. 4. Joel and Tommy have met many friendly survivors outside their community throughout the years, and would never expect someone from their past try to come back and kill them.

[@SammEater]

@@butter2254 Ok Neil Druckmann, very cool.

[@butter2254]

@@SammEater that’s such a lame comeback. Anyways have fun hating on a game that came out years ago, bye 😂

[@SammEater]

@@butter2254 More fun than playing that movie poorly disguised as a game, for sure. Go back to work on the multiplayer game, Neil, oh wait it got cancelled.

[@eanderson9599]

Ellie’s gay by the way

[@bubba842]

She was gay in the DLC for the first game too. This game didn't unveil something that people didn't already know.

[@jeremyduke4938]

Ellie is gay though by the way.

[@TheRocco96]

@@bubba842 It's ELLIOT

[@Ricardo-cl3vs]

Ellie wasn't gay in part 1! She was clearly interested in men's penises from the porn magazine she stole from the only gay character in part 1. Her also being gay was an afterthought and it only came up in the DLC!

[@noneofyerbeeswax8194]

It's, like, really subtle, so I shall point it out for those who haven't been paying attention to ZE MESSAGE: Ellie might be just a tiny bit less straight than a railroad spike.😇

[@Jetstreamsamdidnothingwrong]

I hate how they painted the fireflys as the tragic heroes in this game when in the first game it's pretty clear they we're idiots who didn't know what they were doing

[@coling3957]

Fireflies were Antifa ... in the second game they put the WLF in Seatle, a broken Democrat city today that got taken over by Antifa in 2020 "summer of love" .. the game makers try and make their antifa pals out to be the "resistance"

[@Ricardo-cl3vs]

And Ellie wasn't gay in part 1 btw! She was clearly interested in men's penises from the porn magazine she stole from the only gay character in part 1. Her also being gay was an afterthought and it only came up in the DLC!

[@giga_chad9]

And were willing to kill kids to meet their goals

[@seriousblurs7996]

Nothing actually changes that in part 2 though. A vet was basically revealed to be their finest medical and bio-science authority... And they sure also make some tactically questionable decisions here too. Near bursting pregnant on probably dangerous but not all that essential scout mission? Sure, why not.

[@ghostring3624]

So, the lesson here is, if Joel didn’t save Ellie, he would be alive.

[@juanrosario5842]

Just like if Daryl didn't blew Negan's men then Glenn and Abraham would be alive!

[@RhysCallinan-cq5re]

Or, if Joel didn't save Abby he'd be enjoying Bigot sandwiches.

[@RhysCallinan-cq5re]

​@Krypto121Murder? Odd way of describing self defence.

[@mr.s9783]

@Krypto121Uh, the surgeon was literally about to murder Ellie “for the greater good.” Joel stopped him. 😊

[@udaysingh-wr2kw]

@@mr.s9783he could have shot him in the leg

[@Adam-nk6ty]

“Abby, a theoretical woman” killed me

[@vpaul4374]

Gigantor*

[@thesuperintendent4290]

And a two time Olympics powerlifting champion

[@danilonden3782]

Ellie is gay btw.

[@spiral3441]

Abby is a great representation of trangenders in games.

[@quanlinglingdingle6122]

Bro even tyler1 said it took him harder to get his physique irl in a short time without steroid While gigantor here in a post apocalyptic world...

[@mattcomchoc2957]

there's never been such a disparity between how much i loved an original, and how little i've wanted to play a sequel

[@tuorofgondolin8235]

Make sure you play the actual original and not the remake (the Part I verision). I've been told that they alter the ending of Part 1 to justify what Joel was accused of in Part 2.

[@darkblaze373]

i feel so sorry for you, youve missed out

[@WH250398]

To be fair, the gameplay, in the first half at least, is superb. The story however, made me wish I never played it.

[@seriousblurs7996]

@@tuorofgondolin8235 Have not played pt1 but that sounds like complete BS. 1. Everyone would have heard about it if that was the case. ;) 2. They actually repeat the ending scene exactly as I remembered it was in the second game.

[@tuorofgondolin8235]

@@seriousblurs7996 I've only played the original version of The Last of Us (PS 4): I don't own the Part 1 or Part 2 releases. So, I am only repeating what I was told. It's why I haven't bought the Part 1 version for the PS 5 ... well, that and I if I have to double-dip for it... well, I'm not *that* into the game. Anyway, if what I've been told is wrong, then that's a relief.

[@jonathankozenko]

What annoyed me most about the narrative was that it treats Abby's killing of Joel as something wholly justified, and almost morally righteous, but when Ellie attempts at counter-revenge, the game screams "REVENGE IS BAD!!!!" Then again, Ellie is substantially less likable than in the first game. I seriously wonder if this is because Amy Hennig was (likely) part of the development of TLOU1, and Neil Druckman wanted to shit all over anything she had to do with; this would explain his seeming hatred of Ellie and his absolute LOVE of Abby!

[@pdizzle10484]

You didn't understand the game then. The revenge takes its toll on Abby and it doesn't make her nightmares go away. She goes on this quest to save the scar kids because she feels like a piece of shit for doing what she did. Not only that, but she loses ALL of her friends because of it. Both Abby and Ellie's revenge quests take a lot from them.

[@jonathankozenko]

@@pdizzle10484 You ultimately miss my main point --- The game demands you cheer for Abby when she kills people, while demands you "BOO!!!" Ellie when she does the same, despite the fact that what Abby does is equally as bad as, if not worse than, what Ellie does. Honestly I suspect a LOT of this is probably because Amy Hennig probably helped in the development of Ellie (and Joel), and Neil Druckman has dedicated his life to destroying Amy Hennig's work, despite her being more talented, and clearly a MUCH better human being than he is. Seriously, Amy Hennig is awesome, and the fact that Druckman has done everything in his power to undermine her entire career, while being a MASSIVELY bigger douchebag than her, says a lot. My ultimate point is that the game demands you absolutely adore Abby and utterly despise Ellie, despite the fact that Abby is actually a worse human being than Ellie is. But worse, it's a MASSIVELY hypocritical stance that Druckman (in all his self-assigned glory) prompts onto the players.

[@JZStudiosonline]

@@jonathankozenko All I've ever heard was that Amy worked on uncharted. I don't think she was tied to TLOU.

[@dopeyrelaxingsounds8607]

@@jonathankozenko How exactly does the game demand you cheer for Abby when she kills people, and boo for Ellie when she kills people? You haven't actually given any examples, you've just made a statement. Give me some examples, I'm curious.

[@breakneck777]

​@@pdizzle10484 Abby isnt even a character, shes the wistful representation of a bunch of mentally ill blue haired twitter whales

[@bobbyfagan7760]

Never played it Never will

[@734ch3r]

Played what? They neved made a sequel in my timeline.

[@BumbleBee-xi2yv]

​@@734ch3r I have no idea what the OP is going on about.

[@CragusMaximus]

Same

[@sgvmvp]

Ellie's gay by the way

[@YT1300MF]

Same. Played the first game once, didn’t play the dlc. That was all that was needed. The story didn’t need s sequel, let alone the one we got.

[@FlandersB]

Such deep, meaningful storytelling. "Revenge is bad, ok kids?". Over and over and over and over again. OK...we get it already jeez. Subtle as a sledgehammer.

[@koheikyouji]

Subtle as a golf club....

[@ComputersDontFixPaint]

Meanwhile Abby never gets punished for revenge.

[@drajion8976]

@@ComputersDontFixPaintShe literally gets crucified lmao. Did y’all play the game?

[@CallForGrandPappy]

It’s not even that simple, Abby gets her revenge and gets her friends killed, but gets to go to firefly island with trans robinhood Lev.

[@Bronasaxon]

Hammers the idea that retribution is bad no matter how justified into the coming generations and weakens them. Or would if this game wasn’t so terrible.

[@rudeoldguy]

I hate the trope of the good guy killing all the henchman, but then deciding that the boss should live even though the entire motivation up to that point was to kill that boss. In a way it kinda shows how the elites get away with everything, while the workers get stomped on without mercy.

[@jasonadersonwedion9874]

Agreed

[@darkblaze373]

This "boss" was not even a boss. It was someone who lost their farther to the "good guy" This game is amazing because of perspectives, you put yourself in someone elses shoes and experience the world from their point of view. Both are justified in what they did to each other but in the end it showed that mercy can prevail, she saw that abby already suffered enough and was probably broken beyond repair.

[@pedrotenoriomendes]

So... There's a Marxist hidden message in the game? I already thought it was bad before knowing this!

[@betterthanyesterday3912]

Hope the trope hope the trope hope the trope hope the trope

[@gbrow1604]

I love how you said this and then Rebel Moon 2 came out lol.

[@Suavecenzo]

Your presented endings are far more impactful and emotionally satisfying. Part 2 really just ripped life apart as a fan of the first story.

[@dewiwilliams4821]

Yes they are. Enjoyed the game on the whole, but very flawed

[@MRFIKSIT31]

Also, these dumbass apocalypse world games for some reason now want you to think at least 50% of ppl in an apocalypse world would be gay. It’s ridiculous.

[@TheSEWEGI]

And have nothing better to do than worry about bigotry.

[@yosemiteyosemi488]

In apocalyptic situations, humans are programmed to mate heterosexually. Communities would look down upon it not in a social way, but in a biological way. Not only does it make zero sense, it's also suicide.

[@shitmandood]

@@TheSEWEGIbecause it’ll spread all over the internet and turn you into a social pariah…but wait! internet dead. 😵

[@skidmoda]

Ellie's gay by the way ;)

[@channell11]

The reality is that when everything goes to hell, society reverts to traditional gender roles and productive behavior right damn quick. The social justice intersectional nonsense is generally only indulged in societies that have enough comfort and safety to allow it.

[@oddiocurtiss]

That's a damn good point. Some stories don't need a sequel or an epilogue. Sometimes, we just need to know the glory without whatever may come. A happy ending may not be happy given time. But that's what is great about happy endings or even sad endings. It's all up in the air. It leaves it up to the audience. I miss when endings were left to the imaginations of the consumer.

[@Trixie1604]

Well said.

[@sayLeotardbutsayitChinese]

Endings are what allows amazing stories to become legends. Imagine if they came out with three terrible sequels to Blade Runner in the years after it came out. Would it be remembered the same? That shit always tarnishes the status of what could just remain the gold standard (COUGH Predator COUGHCOUGH Terminator COUGH Alien cough)

[@Lennis01]

Always know when to end your story. J.R.R. Tolkein started writing a sequel to The Lord of the Rings that took place in the Fourth Age after all of the characters had either passed on or went to the undying lands of Valinor. It was dark and depressing, and Tolkein himself didn't like where the story was going, so he stopped writing it. Tolkein's legendarium was thus made to end where it was always meant to end; with Middle Earth saved, Aragorn becoming king, and Frodo leaving for Valinor where he could find peace among the elves. Lord of the Rings was epic because it had closure.

[@Brian_Boru]

Misandry is the foundation of this game and don't forget it.

[@thehatter9400]

And has been for so many games ever since

[@Jadty]

Cool it with the antisemitic remarks.

[@jessekoepp3928]

@@Jadty Cool it with the "I detect imaginary thought crimes!" online 🤡policing. Also look up what "misandry" means Detective 💩 for 🧠.

[@L.D201]

@@JadtySorry pal but it’s 2024 and the grifters no longer support jews

[@DerWeisskunig]

@@jessekoepp3928 Wooosh

[@adamh2957]

Stopped playing as soon as I realised the mid-game Gigantor switch wasn’t another short segment. Knew what they were doing and just rolled my eyes.

[@samwallaceart288]

I love LolTyler1's honest reaction: "Oh I'm PLAYING as Abby now? _ugh_ That's so cringe! That's-- . . . That is SO. INSANELY. *_AIDS."_*

[@Adrian-yi8fl]

Gameplay was good. But the whole thing about Ellie being super mad at Joel seemed really contrived and forced. Nobody's going to be that livid over not letting some doctor kill you for a very remote chance at a cure that probably wouldn't be able to be manufactured and distributed anyway.

[@AxelCross]

If you pick up the optionals in the hospital you learn that: 1. Ellie isn't actually immune, just resistant 2. The Fireflies have tried this same thing on other "immune" people before and failed every time (some of them fled from the hospital, too.) As you said, what facilities do they have for manufacture/distribution? They are running on generators and salvaged diesel. And even if they could? Being immune to infection won't stop anyone from being flayed alive by a clicker or slaved out to hill people.

[@Adrian-yi8fl]

@AxelCross ... yep great points I listen to all the recordings. Plus it goes against the whole ending of the first game. It really seemed like they had a tacit agreement between them and Ellie was going to accept and it really worked. Only to dash it to pieces in the next game.

[@Adrian-yi8fl]

@AxelCross and not to beat a dead horse but after all they went through together and winter and everything else I just can't believe she would cut him off

[@Adrian-yi8fl]

@Krypto121 there is no way to look at it that would make her level of anger reasonable or believable.

[@RhysCallinan-cq5re]

At the end of the first game it's implied she doesn't believe Joel but is fine with his decision now she has a new life.

[@tylergoodman3560]

They took a perfect game and used it for " The message." 🎉

[@Knaztr76]

I still won’t play it.

[@pcp2522]

Me neither. Loved the first one. At least now I know the story and what happened to Joel. Glad I skipped it

[@winterknight4307]

Agreed

[@sethtone8634]

Your saving yourself like 40 hours $60 and mild depression when you finish it

[@charlescauldron]

​@@GubbinsGuardian"The dough of the pizza is fine, just pick off all the toppings and scrape off the sauce." I think I'll just get a burger, thanks.

[@charlescauldron]

@@GubbinsGuardian No buddy, I got your point the first time. Just enjoy the gameplay in the massive story-focused game, and ignore the hours and hours of story in it. What I was doing was disagreeing with you.

[@griffinkeiser2014]

The fact this won GOTY over Ghost of Tsushima is absurd too. You know it only won cause of its use of THE MESSAGE

[@Always-Hustle]

They ruined The Last of us... The message was strong with this game.

[@helRAEzzzer]

Not really. Literally, all of the "representation" was in the first game, too. This is one of the only pieces of modern media where they don't tokenize us (lgbt people), and it's just normal people existing. The writing in this game was shit, but not because different groups of people are merely existing in it. The TV adaptation, on the other hand, while fantastic, was a bit pander-y.

[@TheCollapse410]

Bro they literally tokenized u in this lmao wtf r u talking about?​@@helRAEzzzer

[@TheCollapse410]

Here's how ending Joel could have been done tastefully with very few changes. Just so ppl saying, duuuh ur only mad cause they ended Joel. Same way but dif. Joel gets grabbed up by these ppl and they take Joel to the room to be tortured. Joel's being beaten when Ellie comes in and we see from Joel's perspective. He looks over at Ellis and lifts his hand towards her. The camera then goes up to see the club about to come down and he snaps back to Ellie and stares at her. Everything kinda slows down as he stares at her. Then every things get back to speed and right before it cuts to black u hear Ellie scream the words, dad. Then cut to Ellie waking up alone in the room. Just a few changed would have made this great. And I think Ellie screaming dad would have been so heart felt and amazing. For her to acknowledge him that way would have been so good. But no...

[@intellectic9155]

While the story direction is awful, and not where we all would have taken it the game wasn't ruined. The gameplay is still some of the best around. The "can't think for themselves" is strong w/ this one.

[@lxlKHARMAlxl]

Please do stfu with your drama. The game is not perfect, but is not the abomination you drama queens make it out to be. Grow up.

[@mkk-un9nz]

'the original game opened with the protagonist cradling his dead daughter in his arms while civilization literally collapsed around him' what a game

[@srj607able]

Merci

[@tylerskiss]

Yeah, that intro was intense. It should have been a dramatic home run for the show, but somehow they diminished the power of that moment.

[@billybatts8283]

Overrated, massively. But yeah that opening is one of the best I've played to a story driven game. But, it doesn't come close to living up to the emotional heights of that opening again and gameplay is a repetitive mix of human enemies/zombie types.

[@NormanReaddis]

Now the sequel start's with the protagonist going hole in one with the father of the lesbian retcon in the first game.

[@HeyTeacherLeaveThoseKidsAlone]

@@NormanReaddis a less be un

[@Skeleton_Dork]

The line "Perhaps if you'd pulled your finger out of Dina" will forever resonate inside my mind

[@viewer3412]

I sense another meme coming…

[@nighthowell]

17:15 Bro, Drinker really just casually came up with 3 plot outlines that completely dunk on what they used in the actual game lol

[@theundergrad5994]

This needs to be pinned. His scenarios were so stinking good!

[@butter2254]

His outlines were pretty bad. They told the wrong type of story. The idea of the game is that you’re supposed to hate Abby and want her dead, until you see her perspective and now feel conflicted on whose side you’re on.

[@somethingawesome1462]

@@butter2254the last of us 2 is the wrong type of story. There is no conflict with Abby. She acts like the fireflies were completely justified, when they had no justification. Was the first person to seek revenge, but cries when all her friends die. Ellie gets her ass kicked, decides to go back again, and then just lets her go. I love the idea that everyone has morals when it comes to letting certain people live, but then no issues slaughtering hundreds of people along the way

[@TheSEWEGI]

@butter2254 I think had Naughty dog given us the opportunity to choose Abby's fate most of the gamers would've killed her.

[@butter2254]

@@somethingawesome1462 Abby never says anything about the fireflies being the ones in the right. She’s only upset that her father was killed. She even makes Owen sound like a dumbass for wanting to go look for the Fireflies. And yeah she cries when her friends die, who tf wouldn’t? But she lets Ellie live after the ass beating because she realizes that Ellie and Tommy weren’t killing her friends for no reason. Abby is the mature one and doesn’t kill Ellie and Dina, and gives her a chance to walk away. As for Ellie at the end of the game, I can understand not liking her decision to not kill Abby, but I do think it makes sense. We’re shown an image of Joel and then she lets Abby go, because Ellie realizes killing another person won’t bring Joel back. And Ellie was really fighting with herself, because she felt horrible for treating Joel how she did for so long. So half the battle was with her own self, not Abby.

[@Arcademan09]

Biggot sandwich makes no damn sense. *Ellie didn't even know what ice cream was* in Part 1 but she knows what that is? Teaching someone what a biggot means is somehow an important survival skills in a zombie apocalypse

[@Cave_Monster]

@@mth2425 Did they ever say they were trans? I just remember them saying they were a girl pretending to be a boy so they didn't have to get married. Unless I missed some dialogue explaining the trans story, I've always assumed the trans community latched onto Lev and ND just ran with the trans story but it wasn't intended.

[@loudenlaffnite246]

Excuse me, nothing takes down a bloater like fully upgraded intersectionality.

[@xEvilRaptorx]

​@@Cave_MonsterI'm willing to bet any money that the DEI groups were involved in the story

[@gurgamous]

complaining about others being bigots is a luxary concern that doesnt happen in post apocalyptic settings because you have more pressing issues to be concerned with. Just one example of why the writing in this game is very dum

[@xEvilRaptorx]

Oh my reply was deleted... of course it was. Cant have pesky statements that make people consider what's going on around them in 2024 huh [It was more likely YT than it was the page owner]

[@cp-the-nerd]

I remember the announcement trailer for this and getting chills of excitement during the guitar part. I consider Last of Us one of the greatest games ever made, thus I naively I imagined a story where the world building was expanded with lore about the outbreak, or some sort of evolution that presents a greater threat to humanity. I never in my wildest dreams expected Joel to be murdered unceremoniously and Ellie's life to be ruined in a miserable and contrived story of [failed] revenge. Forever grateful to the leaker.

[@Lord_Deimos]

_We don't use the term 'fun'_ - Neil Druckmann

[@xiiiiiibanga]

The Last of Us is like The Matrix, it needs no sequels.

[@Fullmetal85]

I agree completely. Some forms of media don't need sequels. At least with movies like Friday the 13th, they were cheesy, funny, and gross and we don't take them seriously because there's no storyline to follow along the movies. They were all the same but different. All 10 of them (I think there are 10, not sure).

[@Drifter2025]

Killing Joel was the biggest mistake they could've done and it's killed the story

[@RollinWithBowlin]

The sad thing is the last of us 2 was not made for the last of us fans

[@ssplif5415]

Thats crazy because most of the actual fans actually like the game unlike these people that are mad “joel died” “his death wasn’t heroic enough”

[@RollinWithBowlin]

@ssplif5415 okay buddy keep buying remastered copies. Joel dying is just the tip of this shitty iceberg

[@ssplif5415]

@@RollinWithBowlin what shitty Iceberg is there this is a masterpiece

[@ssplif5415]

@@RollinWithBowlin and $20 for ah remaster is not a bad deal at all

[@lordfarquad7750]

​@@ssplif5415 buddy we get it. Keep guzzling the Kool aid 😂😂

[@lunarlitso7654]

The fact that you literally just whipped up three alternative plots and endings that sound way better than what we initially got says a lot! Great work.

[@spub1031]

The man is a professional writer while druckman creates OCs

[@jase276]

Because he actually writes. While Neil surrounds himself with yesmen that suck him off.

[@michaeloliver1143]

The fact that they make us play as gigantor after she kills Joel is insane… I died so many times and in such creative ways when I had to play as that butch cow… God, this game was frustrating

[@darkblaze373]

yeah lets start ridiculing someone because of their physical appearance, ignoring the fact that because big in that type of society is extremely beneficial. just stick with the typical cliche games where nothing bad can ever happen to your precious characters. Joel was selfish and paid the price

[@johnwalker3602]

@@darkblaze373 being that big for a woman in that type of society while beneficial its impossible due to lack of nutrition and chems. Also fuck you, Joel did nothing wrong.

[@michaeloliver1143]

@@darkblaze373 lol yeah, that’s fair. I don’t hate her because she’s fugly, I hate her because she killed the protagonist of the last game. Baffling story choice by the creator of the game, I don’t know anyone that enjoyed the story of the second game. It was just a lame/intentionally controversial story that was poorly executed with a truly pointless ending.

[@darkblaze373]

@@michaeloliver1143 there’s so many people who enjoyed the story like me. So many online. Critics all did. Their job is literally to play games and rate them and they’re professionals. Her killing the protagonist in the game was amazing. It was the first time I played a character who did that. It’s ground breaking. People hate new things or things that challenge their beliefs so it was normal that there was outrage based on the leaks

[@KraziEyevin]

​@darkblaze373 that's called the "appeal to novelty" fallacy, btw.

[@embracerodusk2537]

Naughty Dog was better before they gave Druckmann control. They'd likely be better if they sent Druckmann to Hollywood which is where he really wants to be.

[@johnohrstrom5112]

Did you like part 1? That was him.

[@Demsky83]

So he’s 1-1 now

[@bjrnhalfhand2258]

​@@johnohrstrom5112 Amy Hennig.

[@WarpChaos]

​@@johnohrstrom5112Bruce Stratley

[@superstrat5826]

@@bjrnhalfhand2258 Amy Hennig never worked on TLOU, Neil and Bruce Straley were the leads.

[@himayamata]

You know what would be interesting? Make the players decide to kill or spare the character. That way, we get different endings or different route for the game

[@juancarlosarciniegas9018]

Maybe, however there will be part 3 and it is a fact that Aby will be a main character, people would still complain because the choices made in part 2 were not respected.

[@PiggyBonkers0309]

This is not The Walking Dead

[@SWAHswah-tm7sn]

​@@PiggyBonkers0309plenty of games have multiple endings that aren't telltale esq. Chrono trigger, Silent hill 2, the original re3 and even the used example in this review of metal gear solid. I don't think it would have worked in this game because it's designed to be linear but no need to dismiss it completely.

[@PiggyBonkers0309]

@@SWAHswah-tm7sn The Walking Dead also contains a type of disease that turns humans into monsters that kill anything they find or at least try to

[@sugonmaballs]

That would be cool, but definitely against ND's methods of curating a specific story they want to deliver. Plus it would have prolly added years to dev time with how meticulous they'd want all the endings to be written and played out.

[@kontrarien5721]

Your final point about whether or not the story needed to be told goes right to the heart of the current lore/universe/saga mega-bloat we're surrounded by. I remember the thirst for more stories, more adventures, and more time with favorite characters. Now I'm perfectly content with a slice of their lives, a part of their stories. I appreciate open endings and unanswered questions so much more than having every last piece of "lore" laid out for me. It's just too much.

[@AzraealGamer]

I really enjoyed the first game. It wasn’t ground breaking that I was told. I just played it for the first time 2 months ago and beat it. My favorite part of the game was after ellie gets captured and Joel wakes up and gears up. You know he is about to fuck shit up. I actually laughed and said “here comes Joel and he’ll is following us in”. When he finds out they plan to kill ellie for the cure and even before he strikes I said “no fucking way”. I actually became invested in these characters. The banter between them was spot on. The ending felt like a good ending to their story and didn’t need a follow up to it. They fought across America, killing human enemies and zombie things. Survived near death, horrendous weather, and crazed lunatic humans bent on power or their own brand of survival. By the time it ended I was ready for the story to be over. I was like what else could they really do with it? I am glad I played it long after the hype for the game. Allowed me to have an unbiased opinion away from all the media. I don’t plan on playing part 2. The first gave us two characters with two different play styles. Joel is a power house. He can drop an enemy fast and keep on walking. Ellie was small and agile. You couldn’t go toe to toe like Joel with her. Learned that the hard way. Honestly I don’t want to play an older Ellie. Part of her charm was her extraordinary will to push on against all odds stacked against her knowing she needed Joel to help her through it all. And Joel needed her to help regain his humanity because he shut himself off emotionally from the world after Sarah’s death. No amount of story telling in a part 2 could recapture this dynamic and mean fully advance the story especially after killing off one of the two main characters from the first story. So long story short, part 2 doesn’t exist in my last of us storyline.

[@Fullmetal85]

You can thank this "Let's hate on white males" trope that has poisoned all forms of visual media.

[@aka-47k]

exactly that, esp since they fired the actual woman who wrote last of us cause she refused to sign off her name on 2 and its not corpo who actually is author but the human. so 2 is trash written by a rando.

[@ereon6]

I played part 2 and my immediate thought after that game was to wipe it from my headcanon. To me, there only exists the first game without DLC. That game is, in an essence, a fantastic, emotional, gripping, lovely game that I'm so happy I got to play. And pretending everything else doesn't exist allows me to continue to have that feeling of joy about the first one.

[@patrickdoss25]

What sold the first game was Joel and Ellie’s relationship as it evolved over the game. We learn that Joel is not a good guy and did what he had to survive but after so long the price he had to pay to survive meant he was no longer living for anything. That all changes when he has to take care of Ellie and he finds something to fight (and live) for again. Then they completely ruin in the second game what made the first so good. Edit: also this game wasn’t a tragic story for Ellie and Joel. It was just so overly indulgent and gratuitous with its violence that it wasn’t even being reflective of the harsh reality these characters live in and was instead just there to shock its audience. It felt like Naughty Dog was trying to recreate “the Red Wedding” but failed to see why that was effective and Joel’s death was not.

[@ChaplainRaziel01]

Another thing I found funny was Ellie’s lack of self awareness. After Ellie killed that pregnant woman(forgot her name) and Gigantor knocked out Dina, Ellie pleaded with Abby not to hurt Dina because she was pregnant… I thought to myself: Ellie what did just do a few hours earlier?

[@cedontelyar9227]

I mean…Ellie wasn’t aware that Mel was pregnant, and just after she realized that she was, she had a panic attack

[@ChaplainRaziel01]

@@cedontelyar9227 ignoring the fact that Mel had a pretty obvious baby bump, my comment remains the same. Ellie killed a pregnant woman and then pleaded with Gigantor to not hurt Dina because she’s pregnant…

[@Fark2005]

I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of self awareness, but a matter of desperation: what else can Ellie do to save Dina in that situation? Ellie is beaten, her only allies are out of commission, and the person she loves is seconds away from having her throat cut open. She really has no other option but to throw the "she's pregnant, please don't kill her"-card and hope it's enough to spare Dina's life.

[@IgnizAnima]

I want to, once again, point out that it was only the POTENTIAL for a cure. Odds are they would have killed Ellie and been no closer to eradicating the fungal infection than they were before. Joel killed them all to save her because it wasn't worth the risk and they were taking Ellie's agency away from her. She didn't get to make a decision, she would just be sacrificed.

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

This. Ellie wasn't the first immune kid they killed trying to find a cure. There were a few dozen before her. You found that out from the audio tapes you find when working your way through to save her. Once I found that one, full-on papa-bear mode engaged, and I didn't leave a single one standing.

[@An_Actual_Rat]

More importantly, you can't vaccinate against a fungus. The fungus itself was mutated and could've been sampled with a simple biopsy, no killing required.

[@mikoto7693]

@@Roboticus_Prime_RCFor some reason, from the perspective of someone who hasn’t played either game but has heard all about them, I find that quite disappointing. It takes away the power of that ending. If Ellie had been the first immune kid and they really could have made a cure from her and Joel rescued her anyway because he’d bonded with her and saw her as his daughter, that would’ve been powerful and people would probably still debate which way the correct decision. But making it that there has been up to a dozen immune children that they unalived trying and failing to make create a cure from, it unambiguously makes Joel right and them wrong. They were evil, he was good and that’s the end of it. It’s also peculiar that after the fifth or sixth immune child was born, why they didn’t stop with the experiments. If so many children are being born immune it means that humanity is starting to adjust, and our species could recover. That would give me incredible hope for the future. If humanity could survive these first few generations until nearly all the population is immune and could keep breeding more and more, eventually the infected could be driven back. There could be a future, maybe a century or two ahead, where humanity is basically immune and has enough numbers to reclaim large parts of the world and start rebuilding civilisation. Eventually perhaps the infected could be driven way back into the most isolated, distant areas or eradicated entirely. Perhaps even a cure could be developed once humanity has reclaimed enough resources and technology to do so. And I’d be okay with that. Even if a cure was never developed during my lifetime I would be content with doing everything I possibly could to protect, nurture and educate the immune children. Even if there was no hope for me personally there would be for humanity. I doubt I’d be the only one to feel that way. Imagine a group of survivors whose sole objective was to locate and protect anyone they could find, especially the immune children. Ah well, it is what it is.

[@Wadacup]

​@@mikoto7693from my understanding, they were getting closer with each sacrifice. But regardless, even if Ellie had led to a successful vaccine, only those not yet turned would be protected against infection. The vast millions of fungus zombies would have to be eradicated the hard way still. It could easily be argued as well that the Fireflies had neither the capability or infrastructure to manufacture enough vaccines. And that they would use it to solely further their own power and goals to the detriment of everyone else. Why would the give the vaccine to the leftover Military, for instance?

[@Wadacup]

​@@mikoto7693​from my understanding, they were getting closer with each sacrifice. But regardless, even if Ellie had led to a successful cure, only those not yet turned would be protected against fungal infec. The vast millions of fungus zombies would have to be eradicated the hard way still. It could easily be argued as well that the Fireflies had neither the capability or infrastructure to manufacture enough cures. And that they would use it to solely further their own power and goals to the detriment of everyone else. Why would the give the cure to the leftover Military, for instance? Had to edit my comment as the v word made it get self-deleted

[@Youthfullegend]

Okay, guys, hear me out... I think Ellie is gay...

[@LWAllen]

Cool. I was wondering.

[@jeffreydean5112]

Too bad the game didn’t explain it…

[@ein.1789]

You don't saaaaaayyyy.... 😑😑

[@peteli4194]

How did you come to this conclusion?

[@iamrage4753]

i think she always was a rugmuncher 😂

[@JR-vq9gs]

Ive seen a few videos on this and ill never understand why nobody ever brings up the fact that neil originally wanted the game to be about joel seeking revenge aganst the man who killed his daughter, but the other guy who wrote the game understood the world and writing better pointed out that revenge made no sense when in the world they were in survival would be the only thing youd think of day to day. It was a brilliant point and made the first game brilliant as that was the focus. Neil once rid of these other writers got his revenge by adding in not one, not two, but three revenge stories.. the other point was that the first game took place in a small area, but the second took on a crazed expanded place the most ridiculous part being that ellie was able to track abby across the continent.. if you open the journal when standing on the beach in the third revenge mission as ellie, you will see that she not only crossed thousands of miles but also went through the nevada desert to avoid vegas.. the madness involved in the overall story is just awful.. it was one of the most painful games ive ever plaged. I also think abby gets a tough rap as her story is actually stronger than ellies who is just an unlikable prick the whole game.

[@J_A_P_E]

Because this is deep Naughty Dog lore that most people don't know... we're seeing now how important Bruce Straley was for Naughty Dog No surprise he left the company half way through The Last of Us part 2

[@sterling7]

There's something about a game that drags you along, forces you to do bad things, expects you to feel bad for "having" to do them, and yet refuses to allow you to make any real, story-affecting choices, that's always going to turn my stomach. It's basically the same reason I stopped playing TellTale's offerings; "be offered bad/false choices, be lectured for making bad/false choices, lather, rinse, repeat" isn't half as clever as the puppet-masters would like to think; it literally makes "I'm not going to play this" the only winning decision.

[@mikoto7693]

Exactly. It took me a long time to realise that’s one of the biggest reasons why I enjoy video games. I’ve always gravitated towards role playing games and especially those that give me choices. They don’t always have to be massive choices of course. But yeah, the Mass Effect series, Dragon Age, The Outer Worlds, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3, New Vegas, Fallout 76 and Fallout 4 are examples of my favourite games either because in part the customisable world states or faction choices. I’m not sure why, but the settlement system in FO4 is really appealing to me. Combine with faction choice and it is one of my favourite games despite the flaws. That’s not to say I can’t or don’t enjoy more fixed games where there are far fewer choices such as Pokemon or some of the Final Fantasy series. If the characters, story and world are good then I’ll still enjoy it, it’s just that I gravitate towards choices. And yes, games that force you to either do bad things to progress, or just turn off the game entirely and then proceeds to lecture me about the terrible things my character did irritates me immensely. In those kinds of games the only way to win is to simply turn it off and find something else to play.

[@Fullmetal85]

Also, those choices don't count for anything. Might as well not even have them (even though the whole gimmick of the games is about player choices. They are fake choices but they are still there). I still remember playing the first Walking Dead and there was a choice about saving one person over another. The other would be left behind while traveling on a train. The one I chose to save died like 10 minutes later... Telltale died for me with that game.

[@raven75257]

​@@mikoto7693I'm sorry, but you like Fallout 4 because it gives you choices? Lmao

[@mikoto7693]

@@raven75257 Yes. Brotherhood of Steel, the Institute, the Railroad or the Minutemen. Those are called choices. Whether you bother with the settlements or leave them empty, that’s also a choice. The fate of Far Harbour? Of Nukaworld? All choices.

[@Valkyrie7894-o4v]

Joel was such a grounded gritty character, a man moulded by tragedy & an apocalyptic totalitarian world. Throughout Last of Us 1 we see glimpses of the person he used to be (dry humour, compassion). He’s strong & stoic, but closed off & emotionally damaged. Seeing him gradually heal and open up to his surrogate daughter who he sacrifices everyone & everything for was so damn compelling. After he massacred the fireflies to save Ellie, Joel arguably had it coming. His death could have been a beautiful swan song to an amazing character. A blaze of glory for the fanbase’s beloved badass. But no, it’s one of the most disrespectful deaths I’ve ever seen. We’re forced to watch the character we’ve grown to love die in pain & powerless to do anything, but take the golf club. Shocking? Yes. Realistic? Maybe. A good send off? FUCK NO. His death could have so much more impactful if we’d met Abbie before killing him and seen her side of the story. The pacing just ruins what attachment we’d have to Abbie. We don’t get a chance to empathise with her since the first time we see her, she’s bashing the main character’s brains in.

[@sarasunshinemt4444]

They could have handled it more like Kill Bill, honestly. Especially the scene where The Bride goes after Vernita Green and they have this huge fight in her house but put the weapons away when her daughter gets home. Then, after The Bride kills her and the daughter walks in on it, she says "your momma had it coming but if you're still sore about this when you're grown up, come get me".

[@Demsky83]

Right let the death of Joel happen at the end of the game as after we’ve spent considerable time with Abbie.

[@SycrosD4]

The only word that comes to mind when I think of this game is “frustrating” The gameplay was frustrating. The level design was frustrating. The exploration was frustrating. The resource gathering was frustrating. The plot was frustrating. The characters were frustrating. The character relationships were frustrating. The writing was frustrating. The dialogue was frustrating. The introduction was frustrating. The conflict was frustrating. The resolution was frustrating. It’s like the whole experience was doing its damndest to NOT be enjoyable while wearing the fancy dress of a triple AAA title. I guess it succeeded in that regard

[@s.sradon9782]

Finally someone that gets it! I play unfun games all the time, for the art, but this one hardly passes as modern art

[@colemanfoster8972]

critical is the most legit reviewer we have here on youtube we must protect him at all cost

[@doublebrewski1855]

But who's gonna protect his liver from himself? 😅

[@shirokatatsu5886]

​@@doublebrewski1855His liver is immortal like him

[@iamrage4753]

Yes, we must preserve him in whisky 😂

[@samwallaceart288]

Oh no! You did a pipeline!

[@purefoldnz3070]

This game has some of the worst writing I've ever seen in any game. A few examples Joel and Tommy giving their names, addresses and social security numbers to a bunch of strangers while being outnumbered in a small room right after a scene where Joel said he made lifelong enemies of the Fireflies. A pregnant woman being let out in the middle of a warzone like its no big deal. Ellie hiding out in her secret mission to get revenge while in a theater and they decide to turn on all the lights so anyone can see their location from 30 miles away.

[@rafaynoman1180]

Say guy what's you're name? Joel: William Armstrong, but you can call me Billy. And then the rest of the game didnt happen.

[@AshCosgrove]

TLOU 2 is the worst sequel since WWII.

[@BornGam3r]

You deserve a medal of honor for this comment sir🎖️

[@TaserFace77]

Sad, but true

[@loudenlaffnite246]

I mean, we defeated Hitler, freed the Jews, and won WWII -- what exactly did we win with this game? It was losses across the board.

[@manoz6194]

@@loudenlaffnite246 The war was a mistake, none of the first part of your comment is a good thing. You've been lied to. It's because of that mistake the world is in a "modern audience" state now

[@samwallaceart288]

​@@loudenlaffnite246Hey those accessibility options are gonna save your life one day

[@itzDriftGG]

Great review. My biggest issue with the game was how exempt it was from criticism at launch (I guess it still is). Anything suggesting TLOU 2 wasn't a work of art and a masterpiece of our time meant you were 'homophobic' or scared of a woman with muscles.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Fanboys would zealously decry any criticism as you're a hater/homophobe etc. at worst and at best you'd get the condescending "oh you weren't smart enough to get it". No I got it this was a vanity project from Neil Druckmann and is exactly what he wanted to do in the first but was told no because the idea of somebody pursuing someone across the post apocalyptic US alone on foot for revenge when surviving was such a struggle didn't make a lot of sense. Unfortunately Bruce Straley wasn't involved in this game to tell Druckmann what didn't work and what needed to be tweaked and that's pretty apparent to me.

[@ssplif5415]

Tell me y this game sucks without telling me “Joel was disrespected” or “he shouldn’t of trusted strangers” “or abby was spared” all of u just regurgitate the same shit

[@itzDriftGG]

@@ssplif5415 I never said the game sucks. I did think TLOU2 was boring and the gameplay did nothing for me. I thought it was style over substance and if the story didn't grab you (I didn't care for it) the gameplay wasn't strong enough to carry it. Besides, what's wrong with people bringing up those points you mentioned? Perfectly valid. People lambasted the recent Suicide Squad game for how certain heroes were killed. Just a heavy handed way to force an emotional response from the player.

[@RL-]

​@@ssplif5415 that's because they're all valid criticisms. Anyone with half a brain (the kind that hasn't been pummeled by a golf club, I guess) can easily pick this game apart. Anyone else was easily manipulated by cheap tricks and literal fraud.

[@Mr_Bones.]

It’s funny, because no one is actually homophobic (as in literally terrified of gays). That’s just the word gay people use to verbally terrorize normal people to accept them. And as for the women with muscles thing. Did the TLoU2 ever explain how a girl consistently injected testosterone in a world with zero hygiene, zero clean needles, zero fresh testosterone (shelf life is 2 years, Abbigail is swole 20 years after the collapse of all society), and scarce resources? How was Abbigail muscular in a world where every day is a struggle for food? Almost all the men are shown to be skinny athletic built, but Abbigail is Hulk Hogan? Okay This game only makes sense if you bang your head against the wall.

[@Matthew.Wade27]

I’m glad the plot got leaked. I was a huge TLOU fan. I knew right away I was going to hate this game. Saved me time, money, and disappointment.

[@am3thysts]

I think that the game’s potential to be one of the best videogame stories ever is what made people hate this game even more passionately. The whole game just aches of wasted potential and the creators attempting to shoehorn in inclusivity bonus points instead of focusing on character, relationships, and plot.

[@Laughy-Flaaffy]

It’s interesting that this game launched around the same time as Red Dead Redemption 2, with them killing off their main character, and how much of a difference fans praised that game’s handling of losing the main character compared to how fans despised how Naughty Dog handled that for this game. Simply put, one game did it the right way, and the other game did it the wrong way.

[@username.exenotfound2943]

killing joel off would always be a bad move since poeple had spent YEARS waiting to play as him again and he just gets into a golfing accident

[@An_Actual_Rat]

​@@username.exenotfound2943I think a lot of people expected him to die and would be fine with it as long as there was some element of dignity involved. Killing him could be a very cathartic experience that would've elevated the story, but they chose to do the complete opposite.

[@mikoto7693]

Holy moly I wish I knew The Critical Drinker had a Critical Gamer channel. His opinions match mine in the movie industry and as a lifelong gamer I’m delighted to see him taking on my favourite passion.

[@UniversalLevelThreat]

The entire story from start to finish is based on coincidence after coincidence. Aside from the fact the realism is gone the story just sucks. Here are some points: 1. Abby finding Joel right away is convenient 2. Convenient horde of infected deep in the forest and knee high snow haven't frozen solid 3. Tommy and Joel not treating her as a threat (they are both literally on patrol for raiders, hunters and infected) 4. Tommy giving both their names knowing both have a dark past (Tommy knows what Joel did) 5. Ellie has the drop on them 6. They leave Ellie alive 7. Ellie, Dina and Abby have superhuman powers (surviving great falls, explosions, stabs which showed to nearly kill Joel in Part 1) 8. People 25+ years into the apocalypse use the word bigot 9. They have a "trans" kid sidekick with Abby 10. Abby clearly is on steroids which she got from where? Literally impossible for a natural woman to look like her 11. Story switches characters right as you get Ellie decently upgraded 12. You have to play as Abby 13. THEY RETCONNED PART 1 (the fireflies admitted the tests were pointless and there was no cure there is clear evidence from a recording) 14. They paint Joel a bad guy when he is 100% in the right. They were going to waste Ellie's life, gave her no choice and took away the goodbye from Joel 15. Abby leaves Ellie alive again 16. Ellie leaves Abby alive 17. Almost every encounter and interaction that happens is based on coincidently bumping into the one you're looking for 18. Tommy guilting Ellie into going on a revenge mission is completely out of character and way too forced This is just a few of the nonsensical points I can still remember after all this time. I could break it all down from start to finish and prove it's undeniably dumb. That said Tlou2 has some of the best combat mechanics and graphics on PS5. Very brutal and fun gameplay from that aspect. Very well acted. Such a shame it turned out this way so they could "take risks" and tell a "compelling" story purely for shock value.

[@loudenlaffnite246]

Let me add 2 ridiculous contrivances: 1) A fully armed Ellie is shooting at Abby in the movie theatre, but when Ellie finally has Abbie at point-blank range backstage just moments later, she puts away the gun and decides to use a 2x4 and wrestle with her instead. 2) Tommy is sniping at Abby for 10 minutes straight at the marina, but when Tommy finally has Abbie at point-blank range on the dock just moments later, he tries to butt-end her with the rifle and wrestle with her instead.

[@UniversalLevelThreat]

@@loudenlaffnite246 Oh buddy there are far more than what we both listed lol. The game is honestly pathetic writing and story direction anyone who thinks otherwise is blind and complacent

[@GreatHornedCynic]

I agree on all fronts, but the last one might have a possible explanation. Tommy might have brain damage from his non-lethal headshot, and people have been known to develop altered personalities because of said trauma.

[@UniversalLevelThreat]

@@GreatHornedCynic This is true but such a weak reason if they used that to justify his behavior. It's never hinted at or implied in any way that is why he guilts Ellie into a suicide mission. It's just another way for them to make all the favorite characters from Part 1 be the bad guys.

[@GreatHornedCynic]

@pedolover69 The funny thing is, I remember that teaser for Abby's first encounter with Lev and Yara, and she looked a little different. She was less muscular and more feminine. That's the look they should have kept.

[@Fraulein_Sausageball]

This was the first and only game I never completed. All because the story infuriated, depressed and disgusted me.

[@dommice]

I’d advise you not to play Spider-Man 2, GOW Ragnorak, or Horizon ITW either then. Because their stories, heavy hand holding, and wall to wall man hating might put you off a tiny tiddly bit too.

[@paulbennett2284]

It was rude of Owen not to give Abby a reach-around when he screwed him.

[@welltech66]

This game never happened edit: I watch all your stuff Drinker, keep on keeping on, I just hate this game with a violent passion

[@dean_l33]

Without it, we wouldn't have our favorite Neilcuckman... actually you're right

[@orfeotracio]

you are simply wrong

[@Boggedy]

@@orfeotracio No he isn't. Fuck this game.

[@orfeotracio]

@@Boggedy this game has a lot of strenght (well highlighted by the Drinker) you are just upset because it doesn't indulge in (your) MESSAGE

[@TheCollapse410]

​​@@orfeotraciothis game is hot GARBAGE and was so bad I literally stopped playing it. Has NOTHING on the first and it's so bad and what they did to Joel is so wrong. Go ahead and kill him. I can come up with a better death scene for him and have. Not writing it again. But even having Ellie yell out dad before Joel gets hit would have been awesome. But no they DESTROYED Joel for the son of being wyt. F this game...

[@billybatts8283]

How is it Ellie is so tough? She was raised in a safe zone so she had no survival experience whatsoever. She goes out with Joel and he does all the work, she learns to shoot a rifle and bow ok fine. She has a one on one with some dude, she sneaks around and jumps on him because he lets her.... Then she wakes up in a car and is living in another safe zone with a massive chip on her shoulder... Same with Abbey and all the young ones in this game... Joel survives 20 plus years, many outside the walls of a city. What he does at the end of one should give him a reputation like John Wick, people should be terrified of him.... Instead they all mock him as a little bitch.... This is why I'm very pro ff7 remake/rebirth as so far they've not destroyed Cloud and journey may have additional stops but the destination is the same....

[@norwegianblue2017]

One of my pet peeves with modern games/movies is how they have female characters who are routinely able to overpower strong adult men/soldiers with their bare hands and snap their necks like twigs. It's just stupid, whether in this game or Tomb Raider or Uncharted. Resident Evil handles this much better. Claire and Jill are bad ass, but they are still women. They kill with guns and knives and there are even some parts where they can't pass because they aren't strong enough to move a heavy object, where male characters can. Even Ada, who is a professionally trained secret agent in RE4 doesn't kick as hard as Leon does. She has her own set of strengths and skills that aren't brute strength. It is important to keep some things somewhat realistic to maintain the suspension of disbelief unless the game is pure fantasy with magical powers and whatnot.

[@t-dawg5265]

I don’t think the Final Fantasy 7 remake games deserve praise for not ruining a character lmao. Especially with how much the remake completely ruins the original.

[@billybatts8283]

​@@t-dawg5265I'm a fan of the original FF7, played it when it came out as a kid and still have the original ps1 copy. I don't think the remake ruins it at all. You can not like it fine, but the original game still exists. It's not been retconned with the original deleted and then re-released. And Remake still follows the exact same basic story just with additional content. But it will all end in the same place.

[@vectorsahel5420]

You said the truth, but it's a video game. What most people care about is how good the story is and not realism, do theres that. But I agree with you, this trope is so dumb when it's not the least bit believeable

[@gurgamous]

This was my most anticipated game of that generation as the original game is my favorite game. Druckman managed to accomplish something even more impressive than inspiring a sense love or hatred or a semblance of appreciation that I still wouldve played and been content with. But, the creative genius that he be, transcended my emotions completely and managed to make something I became completely indifferent about and haven’t played to this day. Maybe I will at some point, but it’s hard to say when you just don’t really care at all🤷‍♂️

[@s.sradon9782]

feels bad man, I hope you find a better game series to enjoy, a lotta outstanding Indies out there!

[@Iceman16231]

The first game for me was a masterpiece, I hate part two with the heat of a thousand suns.

[@yungbeast3308]

I seriously crack the fuck up EVERY TIME you say "elis gay by the way" 😂😂🤣🤣😂🤣

[@maskedbadass6802]

The "risky/subversvie" writing was actually super safe and predictable if you were familiar with the industry and Neil Druckmann's very public anti-masculinity politics. It re-contextualizes the "oops bad decision" moments into purposeful and sinister decisions made by someone who needs to "educate" the audience to get praise from activists. He relies on gamer money yet obviously hates his audience and worships the feminists who encourage him to hate his audience.

[@mediamaniac898]

I played it all the way through, in 2021, when the fanboys and critics weren’t ripping into each other like Ellie and Dina (or Abby and Owen). When the Remaster was released this year, I reviewed it, but outside of some mildly interesting bonus content, my opinion hadn’t changed. First, the good: even upon initial release, it was arguably the best-looking game to date. The voice acting is top-notch, and you can tell that the Ashley Johnson, Troy Baker, Laura Bailey, etc. are all pouring their hearts into this perplexing narrative. And the gameplay is improved, with new enemy AI that made stealth and combat generally more challenging. And it didn’t play things safe, taking ballsy risks even if they didn’t all work. To say that both sides are right is correct, because Part 2 ultimately isn’t straight up hot garbage or a masterpiece that redefines sequels and revolutionizes gaming as we know it. Ellie had more organic chemistry with Riley in the Left Behind DLC, and the folks who claim to the heavens that Dina is a well-written character is nonsense. Outside of tagging along with Ellie after Joel’s death, there is nothing between them. Remember the subtle writing of queer characters in the first game like Bill and Riley? Here, not only are such LGBT characters poorly written, but the plot also relies too heavily on convenience. And don’t even get me started on the number of flashbacks or flashbacks within flashbacks or cutscenes that take up so much of the 30-hour game. Every few minutes of gameplay, there is a VERY long cutscene that interrupts you. And while Joel’s lie would be inevitably discovered, it makes him look bad for wanting to save her, and when you add in her increased bloodlust throughout the game, I realized something: I hated Ellie. In fact, some of my favorite set pieces were in the Abby sections. But they failed to make her sympathetic either. What surprised me was that I felt empathy when Ellie finds her at the beach…but she doesn’t want to fight anymore. TLOU2 is a beautiful, infuriating nightmare that we never really needed if not for corporate greed. No one asked for it, and I have never played it all the way through again because it’s too miserable and (let’s face it) is about as subtle as a brick to the head when it comes to the story or agenda.

[@capnphuktard5445]

The time trials are awesome

[@eddiestonem7879]

You have become my favorite game reviewer. Truly, you can look at both sides of an argument and give an honest, objective opinion and today, that's a fucking treasure to find

[@nebula0024]

EXCELLENT review - probably one of the best I've seen for this game. Now excuse me while I go back to pretending Part 2 simply doesn't exist at all.

[@Throbingkcoc]

The Last of Us did not need a sequel. Naughty Dog should have left it alone and moved on to something else.

[@jamallayne8195]

Thank you for your comparison to MGS 3 The Boss. She's easily one of the best written female characters ever.

[@Geodatan]

Bad Story, Good gameplay. It's a Woke game. Is Not a Game for Me

[@cadams1607]

It's like the story was written by a 13 year old girl who just heard the quote "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

[@MichaelPooPants]

I couldn't get myself to finish it. I found myself forcing my way through it because I was pretty close to the end, but I had no interest. I turned it off and never went back, and I have no desire to. I got sick of having identities and messages force fed to me around the time Lev showed up.

[@mikoto7693]

I’ve never played either game, but it sounds like you did the one thing you could to win. You stopped playing.

[@Fullmetal85]

I understand and I applaud you for it. There's nothing at the end, only darkness, sadness, and depression.

[@Ardante11]

It felt pointless to go find a person who is likely more than 200 Miles away(on foot) in a post apocalyptic world filled with infected(zombies), limited resources(food, weapons, shelter) and lunatics(basically everyone’s a lunatic at that point) all for revenge? Yet you’re killing people who’re not involved along the way, which in theory could cause someone else to want revenge on you. Game should’ve ended when Elle was at the farm with Dena and the kid. At that point i kept saying it’s going to get better, but nah. I played a mess and anyone who says this game is the best game of all time needs to get therapy. The first game is a contender not the sequel. I bet the HBO series will not use this storyline for season 2 or at least try to fix it otherwise it’ll be TrueBlood all over again.

[@darkblaze373]

Is naughty dog telling you to transition to female or start having intercourse with guys? Why are you right winging conspiracy theory nut jobs so obsessed? I find trans and gay stuff strange because it goes against human nature to procreate, but these characters still did not annoy me. Learn to be tolerant

[@ereon6]

When it got flipped to abby I ended up having to turn on every single accessibility option and sprinted through all the content because I couldn't stomach playing any more.

[@blahblah4242]

That’s probably the most generous yet honest review I have seen of this game

[@Melchiah28]

I totally disagree with you in this case, Drinker. A couple of month ago there were some things leaked about the second part of the last of us. Druckman wrote himself into the game, the dude who spits on Joels Body. Druckman hates the fans and he hated Joels Character who was created by Amy Hennig. She deserves the credit for the first game. But Druckman gets all the credit. I never give people respect who shits on me. The Second game destroys everything for the first game stands. I'm sick of this Game of Thrones-esk storytelling were every single good people got killed in the most disgusting way imaginable because they are not fucked up as the rest of the characters.

[@bbbbbbb51]

Your last paragraph is reality though. It even explains current government around the globe. Evil people controlling, manipulating, and ruling over decent people who don't want the power because they respect the weight and severity it should carry. Like it or not, it is very reflective of reality. Good guys rarely win. In the words of Norm Macdonald, "It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds?"

[@Melchiah28]

@@bbbbbbb51 you are right. but if i want reality i watch the news. i want a compelling story of heroism in which the good guys win even if they have to sacrifice themself. thats my form of escapism.

[@xtlm]

@@Melchiah28 depending where you watch the news, it's rarely reality lol

[@bbbbbbb51]

​@@Melchiah28fair enough. Personally, I'm a bit sick of the hero tales. It clearly works, but it's been done to death for me. More nuanced stories are what captivate me enough to warrant escapism.

[@wolfypilot]

Is druckmann jewish by any chance?

[@reingp]

The idea of having Gigantor's perspective as half of the narrative wasn't bad at all, but was the execution. They made Abby impossible to like. Despite her good deeds, she had zero charisma, and yes, that includes her physical appearance. If they made her more relatable, like they did with Ellie for example, TLoU II would've been much better I guess. Also, I think Ellie is gay.

[@Seyanoo]

If they made Abby and her friends more likable and made you actually care for them then yeah the game would’ve been much better in its whole revenge bad story line, but you get insufferable morons that you genuinely can’t wait to kill off instead. Also first impressions are important and who would’ve know that introducing your new protagonist killing off a beloved character would make people hate her.

[@SunwardRanger83]

Just my opinion, but I think they should have started you off playing as Abby if they really wanted to do this kind of story properly. Start as her, but don't tell the player who she is. Let you get to know her a bit, start to like her, then reveal who her father is. Then you get a little time playing when you know what's going to happen to her and her father, but you're dreading it because you already started to like the character. Show her going from innocent to damaged and warped and out for revenge. They had a lot of this in the flashbacks later in the game, but by that point it's already too late to get most normal people to forgive her. Sure, there's still people who like the story as is, and love Abby and how she was written, but a lot of them seem just a bit deranged and "morally flexible," and definitely not your normal average person. I think the story of this game had some potential, but it was very poorly written.

[@Lennis01]

​@@SunwardRanger83 I wouldn't say it was badly written so much as badly structured. It was so emotionally manipulative as to be almost comical when you look at the whole story in retrospective. The story would have been no less emotionally impactful if it had started with Abby, with the player having no idea who she is or why she is important to the world of TLoU, and showing her adventures in Seattle. Even with her ridiculous physique, people would have gotten invested in the character and actually started rooting for her. Then Abby gets a lead on the man who murdered her father, but the player gets no inkling who that could be. Just that her father was a Firefly. Well, that could be anyone, right? The Fireflys had a lot of enemies. Just don't mention Salt Lake City, and the player can be kept guessing. So we see Abby and her closest friends go on a quest for revenge across the country, but the player isn't told where they are actually going. Just that it is far to the east. After a series of adventures fighting off clickers, bandits, and deranged cultists, we see a sign on the road saying "Welcome to Wyoming." That's the player's first real clue that an incredible plot twist is coming, but they don't really want to believe it. Could it be Joel? Could it be Tommy? Or is the road sign a huge misdirect? Then the player finds themselves in the same environment Joel and Ellie were at the end of TLoU1, and the player is left to wonder again. Before arriving at Jackson, Abby and her friends mention the name "Miller" for the first time. This tells the player nothing since Joel's (and Tommy's) last name was never mentioned in TLoU1, yet we cannot help but wonder what the connection with the first game is. Then comes the rescue and meeting with Joel and Tommy. Abby's party then says (without tipping their hand as to why) that they are looking for a man named Miller. Tommy is an important man in Jackson, so he innocuously asks "Which one? You've found him.", thinking these are just ordinary travelers looking for trade and shelter. (Importantly, this makes the moment of carelessness Tommy's fault rather than the more cautious and world-weary Joel's. This is believable for Tommy because he has been sheltered in relative safety for a long time and isn't on his guard.) Joel immediately looks wary as he regards the heavily armed party before him and says "Who's asking?" The player's heart is pounding. Is the killer Joel or Tommy? It is only at this moment that we get the Salt Lake City flashback and find out who Abby's father was. "Salt Lake," Abby says coldly. Joel looks around grimly, realizing how much trouble he and Tommy are in, and this tell informs Abby who her target is. The scene then proceeds like the original game portrayed, and the player is left stunned. Did they really just do that? Did the hero of the second game just murder the hero of the first? After thirty to forty hours of play time? How is the player supposed to feel? What is the player supposed to think? The game then moves to the second half of the story, which sees us in control of Ellie seeking to avenge Joel. Ellie and Dina visit all of the places Abby's party went to, and the player discovers the aftermath of Abby's actions, both good and bad. Throughout these sections, the player is led to ask questions about the cycle of revenge, but Ellie, seeing all of the flashbacks of her and Joel in the original TLoU2, grimly soldiers on. The player is having difficulty picking a side, but they soldier on along with Ellie, wanting and needing to know what happens next. This is what great storytelling looks like. The story is basically the same, but structured in a completely different way to keep the player invested rather than disgusted at the plot and the characters. The story is emotionally engaging rather than emotionally manipulative, and the player is left free to make their own judgments as to who is right or wrong. This change alone would have prevented a lot of early returns of the game.

[@mr.s9783]

If you had played as Abby for the first half of the game showing the hell she had to go through because of what Joel did without making it known that Joel was the cause of it, she could have killed Joel at the climax of the game and made it much more impactful, leaving you to play as Ellie for the second act and hunt her down. The game could have even handed the player a choice to spare or kill Abby and have separate endings as a result. But no, they ruined everything.

[@BloodyInitiate]

It looks like they’re making the mistake a lot of people make which is thinking that all actions a character takes can be justified, or at least sympathized with, assuming they’ve suffered enough to provoke them. The problem is that isn’t how it works. Suffering doesn’t entitle you to vengeance, and being wronged doesn’t give you carte blanche to wrong others. Some actions can never be justified and no one should attempt to justify them. Cold blooded murder, creating situations where hot-blooded murder is unavoidable, rape, these are all impossible to justify. If you inflict that kind of horror your reasons don’t matter, you’re just the villain no matter what. It’s in everyone’s interest to stop you, and in no one’s interest to defend or identify with you. You’re judged by the consequences of your actions, not by the intent or the person behind them.

[@ryanrodriguez7664]

I mean, if you kill a really bad guy that the courts are never gonna get in cold blood, that seems justified to me.

[@heetsees]

Thanks Drinker. You articulated everything I already perceived and solidified my understanding that I do not need to play this game. You did all this so I don't have to. God bless you.

[@jsmart6430]

So… theres a point I don’t see mentioned much but like… ellie is immune… why is she not trying to pump kids out so the REST of humanity can eventually gain immunity over time?? “Well she’s gay.” Okay well like… read a magazine for 2-5 minutes like no one said it had to be fun. I’m pretty sure turkey-basters still exists too like we’re talking about humanity here you don’t even need to KEEP the kiddo just get them in the gene-pool for crying outloud!

[@SammaclauseGamgee]

This is the reason it always bugs me when I see a gay couple in a post-apocalyptic society, like that couple in The Walking Dead. You've managed to survive long enough, in a world set to kill every human, to establish a relatively safe place for human life to thrive. It should be everyone's duty to get with the repopulation, regardless of preference. Often times in settings like these, people have to do the most disgusting things to survive, like eating bugs/gone-off food and covering yourself in zombie entrails to mask your scent....but they can't do something potentially pleasurable for the sake of adding one more generation to the future of humanity?

[@mikoto7693]

I wondered the same thing, especially after I learned that Ellie wasn’t the first kid to be born immune. There were about a dozen or half of dozen-can’t remember which-who came before her that the cult unalived looking for a cure. And I wondered why they didn’t stop after the third or fourth kid. At that point they should have realised that humanity was naturally adapting and if we could just survive a few more generations then everyone or at least most future generations would be immune. If they were immune and could breed in sufficient numbers then the infected could be driven back. Large parts of the world could be reclaimed. Perhaps the infected could eventually be defeated entirely or a cure found once humanity had redeveloped the technology to do so. Upon that realisation they should have abandoned the original plan and reformed their purpose to one singular thing. Making sure those immune kids survive and start breeding. If I were in Ellie’s situation I really would lay back and do my duty to bear as many immune children as my body was capable of, regardless of orientation or preference. It’s not something that requires active participation as a woman; Ellie could have just spread her legs, closed her eyes and think of other things during the baby making act. And if I were one of the original survivors who wasn’t immune from the infection? Well, it doesn’t necessarily mean that any kids I had wouldn’t be immune and there would be only one way to find out. If not, well then my goal would be to do everything I can to try to ensure the immune kids survive. In such a situation they are the only hope for humanity to avoid extinction and I’d make it my purpose to see that they do.

[@L.D201]

Pretty sure this is the plot to a porno

[@seriousblurs7996]

First of all, you thirsty trio. :) That is not how any immunity works for near anything else contagious. It's not an hereditary mushroom. Second. It is made especially clear there is nothing special about her at all in the first place in this case. It's the fungus in her brain that is special. No one cares about her. She is is literary just a carrier of the thing they want. And it is not that sort of baby. In any case population decline is obviously not a pressing matter in the game. There you can reasonably maybe manage kill like 300 people, excluding zombies, and still have tens of thousands more to go. Maybe over time the whole civil war thing will eventually bring forth the politics for a Handmaiden policy though.

[@bjd3707]

Great review, you've nailed this one. It's silly to talk about now but I have long argued that Ellie and Abby working together before a big reveal late in the game was the better story idea, I am stoked to hear someone else say it for once. I also think LoU II unfolds a lot like a part 3 or 4 in the series where writers employ contrivance to up the stakes; why ND decided to stop at just one adventure with Ellie and Joel to this day boggles the mind.

[@TheWtfnonamez]

The game has one major flaw. It got made.

[@Michael_MW]

If Gigantor were that big, most of their time would be spent lifting and eating. Much of her personality would revolve around her fitness and we would see her working out… right? Na. Just magically obscenely big with no real explanation.

[@s.sradon9782]

I'm a bodybuilder and this game aprioprates my culture and discriminates against me and my swolediers. It sickens me to see my brothers in iron misrepresented like that, astaghfirullah habibi.

[@TheBall12]

11:48 There was a note you could find about the doctor (abbys dad). And it is reveals he is just obsessed with finding a cure and he already killied/dissected people that where "immun". And he had little to nothing to show for it. Another thing the devs choose to ignore. Going even so far as retconing it and saying that ellys death would have produced a cure.

[@CampeadorHUN]

May I ask where can you find this note? I never encountered it and I'd love to read it myself.

[@TheBall12]

@@CampeadorHUN I am sorry i dont remember the position. Except for that you could find it on your way to save elli. And i think it wasnt a "note", it was a recording but i am really not sure anymore. I saw it on a full play through on the internet of the original release. I dident want to buy the console but i heard it was a great "zombie" game. So i had to at least see what the fuss is about and got sucked in.

[@CampeadorHUN]

@@TheBall12 Fair enough, thank you.

[@pajanightbadger1713]

You can't have masculine or feminine characters anymore as it's too offensive for the eunuchs

[@Skrenja]

Yes you can. It's just that the roles have to be reversed. 🤣