Was Doom 2016 Better Than Doom Eternal? | Slightly Civil War

Watch next week's episode of Slightly Civil War, "Should The Epic Games Store Exclusives Be Boycotted?" early at the link - www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/b...
This week on Slightly Civil War, Yahtzee and Jack debate whether or not Doom 2016 was a better overall game than the recently released Doom Eternal.
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[@theescapist]

Watch today's episode of Slightly Civil War - Should Epic Games Store Exclusives Be Boycotted? - www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/boycott-epic-games-store-exclusives-slightly-civil-war/

[@barrybend7189]

Here's a suggestion: is the Bravely Default series a proper Final Fantasy Game?

[@lexi3312]

Simple answer to that question. No. Unless the game went back on a promise to release on other platforms. Then yes.

[@barrybend7189]

@@lexi3312 we've had plenty of PlayStation exclusive Final Fantasy games. What makes Bravely Default any different?

[@lexi3312]

@@barrybend7189 did they promise to release and do stuff for other platforms beforehand and then proceed to go back on their word? Then yes. If thats the case for Bravely Default then it applies to that too.

[@chriswinspear7965]

Doom 2016, never encountered a single bug. Doom Eternal - Recently my main save slot will now crash often, making it unplayable, upon key collections, loading a master level or sometimes just randomly during a mission. No corrupt save files, nothing wrong with my PS4 Pro. Apparantly a common problem a lot of people are having. Personally I prefer Doom 2016, both amazing games, but sometimes Eternal has 'too much' going on.

[@eli.8169]

Yahtzee using punctuation is still unsettling

[@SalemShanouha]

Speed @ 1.25 --> Normal Yahtzee

[@dustojnikhummer]

@@SalemShanouha Thanks!

[@SpeedWarrior93]

@@SalemShanouha you the MVP

[@doncornetto]

@@Onikage55 he's thinking on the fly

[@BillMcD]

this video on the whole does come off as rather stilted. Probably less to do with the editing and more with the "we the company are going to choose a debate topic regardless of how these two video makers feel on the issue and assign them positions to defend."

[@lhorrible2100]

"You are clearly not from a dairy state, sir" Jack Packard, saying exactly what I was thinking.

[@fmgmailaccount2445]

That snappy response is honestly my favorite line of the video.

[@2CPhoenix]

Hearing Yahtzee say “balls” instead of “bollocks” is one of the most jarring things I’ve ever heard.

[@Web720]

He's becoming Americanized.

[@TheWaInut]

This just sounds like 2 people who like 2016 more while one pretends to like eternal more

[@joshuahunter3131]

I think it just sounds like 2 people having a civilized discussion on which doom game they think is better tbh.

[@SaurontheDeceiver]

I think that's exactly what it is. Right at the start Yahtzee says they're randomly assigned a side to debate on the topic, and then they have an extemporaneous debate on it. Hence the jokes about Yahtzee getting the side he agrees with for once. Honestly it's kind of refreshing to hear people (in this case, Jack), flexing their thinking muscles to argue a side they don't necessarily agree with, because considering other perspectives is an important skill.

[@fernandolemon9204]

That's how I felt about the previous two episodes, except that Yahtzee was the one pretending there. It holds this series back a little.

[@joshuahunter3131]

@@looinrims time to end this honestly I think both games are equal they are both great games this war is over🔥.

[@tomhill3248]

@@joshuahunter3131 Hey, look at this paper. it says you're a HERETIC! *BANG*

[@Mothman1992]

I feel like regardless of side, Yahtzee is better at rhetoric

[@fighteer1]

Yes. This feels like they're operating on two different difficulty levels on the stage. Jack is on "I don't want to die" and Yahtz is on "Ultra-Violence".

[@duxnihilo]

Yahtzee strikes me as someone who's been taught rhetoric.

[@Slaeowulf]

@@duxnihilo Yahtzee was famously bored and disengaged at school, and left at 16. American accents just sound thick compared to British ones.

[@duxnihilo]

@@Slaeowulf I was aware he hasn't a tertiary degree but not that he'd left so early. Nevertheless, a lot of his jokes are subversions of rhetorical devices like turning a chiasmic sentence into an alliterative mess. I should also remind you, regarding your last statement, that Piers Morgan exists :D

[@Daemonworks]

@@connorrichard9851 Presuming it's intentional, Jack is essentially the straight man in the classic comedy duo. In acts where the roles were clearly defined, the straight man was typically the better paid role because it's harder, and often underappreciated by the audience because they don't see how much works goes into the setup, or how much the setup sells the joke.

[@makotoplush9776]

Imagine if the video just ended when Yahtzee said "DOOM (2016) is better than DOOM Eternal"

[@soad11dude]

Throwback to ye ol fallout 3 review "yeah it's pretty good..." *outro music*

[@Radian333]

@@Onikage55 I'm willing to bet that you still think things like 'there's a goldilocks zone where he'll give you the opening' and 'he spawns the dog passively' if you think he brings a fight to a crawl

[@Radian333]

​@@Onikage55 Then if you knew these things you would know that he's f-tier priority in Ultra-nightmare runs because you can just dance around the arena killing all the other threats and he'll never hit you or summon his dog because you're not blindly shooting at his shield. Then, when you're no longer overwhelmed you can use the multitude of different ways people have come up with to deal with him: ssg ballista combo, ssg stunlock (which is not a glitch it's an intended mechanic), remote det/grenade/stickybomb behind him, icebomb/bfg over his head to get him to hold his shield above him so you can wail on his exposed body. Ironically most demons force you to be constantly moving but people stand still while fighting the marauder because he's so easy to fight once you know how

[@MumblingSolipsist]

yeah like borderlands 3

[@Richard-sy1ej]

He'd still be wrong, even without his bad arguments that follow.

[@RichGwilliam]

Interesting point that quantifying the demons makes them "lamer"... I suppose the idea that the demons are spewing forth from some infinite abyss of pain and evil is basically cosmic horror. The idea that Doomguy not only survived on this plane but rampaged through it in an... undefined manner not only leaves the mystique intact, but makes Doomguy an incredible badass. But when you codify cosmic horror, when you explain too much of it, you just turn it into dark sci-fi; like what Covenant did to the Alien franchise. That's what this backstory is doing; it should never have been explored. It can only ever be lamer than what is implied.

[@Panzer_the_Merganser]

That's it, I liked the idea that UAC just up and 'whoops opened a gateway to hell, here come the monsters' vs getting tedious and technical on spelling everything out.

[@Random1567]

“If you ask a fan what they want, they’ll say what they’ve already got, and if you give them that, they’ll complain” Hit the nail on the head right there with that one, Yahtzee.

[@indeed8211]

thats the point though the mistake of doom eternal is that they assumed everyone wanted to play it like a speed runner (the majority does not find that fun) so they are given speed runner puzzles that will kill you several times and slows the whole thing down Second problem is that the devs noticed everyone was only using the super shotgun in the first game so they set up things in place so you could not just play the game how you fucking want to and are forced to keep switching weapons all the time once again something from speed runners

[@brigidtheirish]

@@indeed8211 First off, I don't see how lethal puzzles and slowing the pace would benefit speed runners in any shape, matter, or form. Also, slows the whole thing down? I struggled my way through the entire game and while it was many things (hard, tense, unforgiving), *slow* is among the *last* word I'd use to describe it. I looked forward to the cutscenes because I was finally able to *breath* for a few seconds before diving back into gameplay designed for someone with slightly above average reflexes. Mine are rather decidedly *not.* Quite the opposite, in fact. As for the weapons switching, way I heard and read it, they realized that because you *could* go through the game just using one gun, that the gameplay could get samey and boring. So they set it up so you have to think about what works best on which enemy, how much ammo you have, how much health you have, how much armor you have, and so on. Again, this doesn't seem like a speed runner thing. The speed runners I've seen are more about exploiting physics to skip parts of the map. This seems more like an actually-using-your-brain thing. And I'm speaking as someone who *royally sucks* at this kind of fast-paced decision-making.

[@slammermchammer]

@@indeed8211 uhhh dude No leeet gamer meme or anything But u might just be kinda playing badly. You def don't need to be a speedrunner

[@BimmWPBS]

@@indeed8211 that's an issue I have with doom eternal as well though, for the vast majority of the game I use the super shotgun there's little reason too switch out of the SSG unless you need to make big things go dead fast

[@TheMiner16]

@@BimmWPBS Could you upload a playthrough? because I doubt thats possible unless you wanna spend 20 seconds every 35 seconds not firing at enemies

[@ChrisPortalBits]

As far as sequels go: I think the big question should be “does it progress?” Because if it’s going to be a sequel then it should build on what’s come before in order to refine the previous experience (better story if Game 1’s story was weak for example) while also progressing the game’s strengths (gameplay, story, whatever) in a way that expands that experience as well.

[@josephdanejackson]

In many cases, I would even say an increase of difficulty. In that regard, starting the difficulty at about mid-game challenge from the predecessor, and the end-game difficulty being harder than the previous entry's. A progress of challenge to overcome.

[@bonelesschickennuggets1868]

The story in eternal found in the codex entries not only expand the backstory of the slayer which furthers expands the already existing data we found in 2016, but also we get some info about what happened after the events in Mars and CLARIFIES even more about what really was happening on Mars, Hayden wasn’t greedy he was desperate to get argent because it was the only energy source that humanity could use to power up its defenses, he even managed to create synthetic argent and ultimately he was buying time for the Slayer to return with Vega as the fortress of doom. It somehow manages to have less story than 2016 because nearly everything it’s skippable but... Are you really not interested as a fan of the series?

[@2Potates]

Gameplay wise i wouldn't say eternal built on 2016 because of how different it is. It feels more like a sidegrade than an upgrade.

[@bonelesschickennuggets1868]

The weapons in Eternal are more balanced than just using the super shotgun for everything The movement it’s expanded with dashes, monkey bars, climbing elements for bigger maps, and of course the Meath hook, making the super shogun the best weapon in the game without being overly broken The enemies are more varied and every single one its easily distinguishable from the other both in attack and how they should be dealt with The chainsaw plays a more important role, correctly manage of this tool it’s the correct way to preserve ammo, you CAN use your favorite weapons, the argument of “simply use all of them” it’s actually very misleading. Most importantly, you can no longer only use super shotgun and Gauss Cannon to cheese all the game, simple

[@davidfeliciano4329]

Chris Portal but if that is the case then wouldn’t Doom Eternal be a progressive sequel? Let’s be real. Very few people were picking up Eternal for an expansion of story. They picked it up because they wanted more of that 2016 provided but better. Don’t get me wrong. I am firmly on the side that both games are excellent games as 2016 gave the targeted demographic, gamers, a nice bit of fresh air while also being a damn good game while Eternal felt like it gave us more of being a damn good game. The area where I feel the titles clash and Eternal fell short was the very thing that anyone probably shouldn’t even be arguing over. The story. 2016 gave the player this very visceral impression that ‘they’ were the Doom Slayer. It provided a very cathartic power fantasy that seems to be frowned upon these days but most importantly it put the PLAYER in the drivers seat and said, ‘here you go, here’s a gun, here’s an enemy, (smacks you in the ass) git er dun.’ Eternal takes that away by establishing the main character as a person, with a backstory, with a motive. This is not to say, ‘I DoN’T nEeD no StoRy iN mAh GaMEs!’ But the story was already established. You, good...ish. Demons, bad. Gun kill demon. Demon scared. Go go, chop chop. Hopefully all that drivel came across correctly but TLDR: I love both games, I love 2016 more.

[@ChessedGamon]

Wait, was Hell supposed to be an alien civilization? I thought Hell was supposed to be the real thing, but the Maykrs were just an alien civilization cutting a deal with them.

[@oomguy9423]

I mean, technically it can be viewed as either way. I personally see hell as a mix of both.

[@GrimReaperAngelWolf]

Yeah that is actual hell and they are actual demons. The biblical heaven is even mentioned in lore, just not the same thing as exultia

[@connorbaird8596]

@@natalieWould Maybe we shall see actual Heaven in the next one, I personally hope so.

[@travislyonsgary]

The way it was described initially in 2016, it was kinda like a dimensional super organism. With demons being its cells. So it took over other realms, incorporated them into it and then kept on going. With the reasoning for its expansion according to the devs being that it fed on the suffering this caused. So kinda analogous in micro to a lot of potential hells.

[@zedek_]

If by "real thing" you mean the Biblical hell, then certainly not. The codices imply that in the Doom dimension, the Judaeo Christian theology came from myths about the Makyrs and Doom-hell. Think about Marvel Universe Thor, and how our norse myths came from stories about these powerful aliens. Same thing.

[@necrobale]

The biggest problem I had with eternal is the change in tone with the story. The game overall felt like it took itself a lot less seriously. The cheesy cutscenes, the glowing neon weapon pickups rather than picking them up through the environment, the ugly UI, secrets being displayed as giant question marks visible out in the open, etc.

[@jmurray1110]

The ? Works well for the map but not the overworld

[@andre6563]

Mimimi

[@chexfan2000]

yeah eternal is a cartoon. It’s really jarring. I like 2016 a lot, it’s got this really nifty sci fi horror vibe and it has an actual point to make about the nature of evil: so you’ve freed yourself of all attachments to the sins of the flesh. Let’s say that’s possible: what about your second in command? are they immune to temptation? it’s a smart refutation of overly idealistic utopianism, and I love how Doomguy is characterized as a mute protagonist. The moment where Dr Hayden growls that he’s plundered hell for the “betterment of mankind” and Doomguy just glances down at a mutilated corpse. Both Dr Hayden and Olivia Pierce are personally offended by the idea of physical limitations; they don’t want to be limited. But there ARE limits to reality, and Doomguy is an example of the limits asserting themselves back. They pushed too hard, and now you’re awake and you don’t have to argue or say anything. You’re here to kill the demons, the demons are here because Dr Hayden didn’t think about how Hell might tempt the less robotic on his staff, and really he shouldn’t have been fucking with the place at ALL. Love ignoring his objections Meanwhile Doom Eternal kicks off with finding the Hell Priests to get to Khan Makyr who is behind all of it, and Dr Hayden is actually a Seraphim and VEGA is God but the devil is the one who is actually god and also, he’s you, and you might be from a different timeline and there’s the Betrayer and you had this whole unseen offscreen weird Viking themed adventure between Doom 2 and Doom 2016 and blah blah blah meanwhile the aesthetic is full on Saturday Morning Cartoons, with no sense of reality, the world is so destroyed that wow! It’s been turned into Mario 64 levels! But mostly you’re in heaven or hell, which are also Mario levels. And instead of fighting the demons that are swarming an industrial complex, you’re memorizing the correct inputs to respond to the various prompts that are indicated by the different demon types, which eventually blur to just flashes of color. The weaknesses of every demon and specific uses for each ability are just told to you in a text box that often warps you to a little tutorial room to make sure you know the Correct Best Way to play and any variation on that will drain your health in seconds, but it’s fine because you have lives like Mario now. Not only that, you can just put on cheats like infinite lives or ammo whenever, the game doesn’t actually care, it’s just about DOMINANCE (it says this with the all caps and all multiple times) and the vibe is very much one of “we decided that one particular type of gamer is the correct gamer and all others are doing it WRONG regardless of how much fun they may have had, so Doom Eternal is entirely about that type of game and it actively works to discourage all others from enjoying themselves whatsoever. Doom Guy isn’t a marine he’s a pro gamer. He lives in a flying castle in space with his funko pops and loads maps from his gaming PC. This isn’t horror, this isn’t sci fi, it’s just Games Games Games press button!!!” And if you had any hope that you might find the fun despite not being a twitchy perfection-obsessed DOMINATOR of games, that is dashed by Maurader who is there to make sure none of the Wrong Sort are able to enjoy any of the late game or DLC.

[@coulthard1984]

​@chexfan2000 great post. I couldn't agree more with what you just said

[@Tokmurok]

​@@chexfan2000 Yeah i noticed doom eternal is super cartoony. Im sure the gameplay is fun. But im someone whos only watched others play those games. And 2016 is far better aesthetically and thematically. It is just more tolerable all around because it takes itself seriously, and that makes sense because its set mostly during the INVASION OF HELL ON EARTH. A comedic parody style just doesnt suit doom. Its like the creators of eternal looked at the doom subreddit and thought lets make that a game.

[@RusticShadow]

"Wait, I thought you were a demon." "Nope. Green alien slug-man." "Wow, that is...significantly more mundane." "I know, right!?"

[@deathbunny3048]

HAR HAR abridged REFERENCES! REMEMBER THAT THING! REMEMBER!! REMEMBER THAT THING THAT WAS A THING! MEMBER! MEMBER! MEMBERRRRRRRRRRRRR!!! HAAAAAR HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!

[@Morgothlord47]

@@deathbunny3048 yes

[@ButrzV2]

"Oh noe! Some dust in my eyes. This is, the worst."

[@Shadowslash1]

Olly Olly Oxen Bitch!!!

[@MaxLoafin]

@@deathbunny3048 haha making fun of something more relevant than you

[@toddzerst8223]

I think that these guys need to argue from points they actually believe in

[@renzo6938]

Todd Zerst yeah, it feels stilted?

[@chaelmavik]

This one was much better because yahtzee argued a point he believes in

[@GeorgeNoiseless]

Well that's what they do on the Slightly Civil War add-on podcast! You know, the one that's on Soundcloud? Honestly I don't know why they chose to partition the show like that -- you can do an audio-only channel on KZbin if you're afraid of THE ALGORITHM taking offence, but there you go.

[@danilooliveira6580]

I kinda like the way it is now, its fun to watch them trying to argue for something they don't believe in. though I would prefer if the podcast was included, its unecessary hasle to have to go to a different link to hear them talk about what they actually believe in.

[@skysnow2495]

The problem with that is then you get people in the comments arguing over the points they made. Them being assigned roles makes it a lot more lighthearted.

[@olivadepault3618]

9:40 "I dont play games to be punished" says the dark soul fan

[@christianschweda2530]

Thought exactly the same, but he corrected himself into "...to be challenged...", and I feel like this is fitting. Nevertheless, I had the same impulse.

[@manavsridharan3811]

Dude I remember Yahtzee saying the opposite of some stuff he said here in an earlier review. Like verbatim opposite.

[@Radian333]

@@voodoodolll that's probably why they didn't make the pits an instant kill like they did in 2016 so the 'punishment' is only 15 health/armour, not your entire ultra-nightmare run

[@111cvb111]

Honestly the only souls game I felt I had my balls being bruised was dark souls 2, there is a lot of pain in that game.

[@wildgoose1990]

You took that out of context for being beat by a invisible wall during ughh 🙄 platforming instead being defeated a stronger foe. The correct term is challenged not punished for darksouls doesn't punish you it challenges

[@DoctorTheo]

Yahtzee: Why do I have to perform? Why can't they perform for me? Spunk Gargle Wee Wee (aka modern military shooters): Hello Yahtzee: No not like that

[@jetmysterytorpedo5935]

Dai-vid Cai-ge games poking head round the door: what about... Yahtzee: No!

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

Bass Knight and then he’s like “them performing for me is to much like a movie, I should be the one performing”

[@tomhill3248]

He should try a game called Nox. I think he'd like it.

[@dansbigfanguitarist]

Bass Knight Activision/EA/Bethesda: HELLO HERES A LOOT BOX TO PERFORM FOR YOU FOR 99.99 PER YEAR! God bless Id software for creating a game that can truly be learned and mastered.

[@hermit6123]

I think my main want out of Doom is a genuine challenge. Eternal seems to offer that in spades. I also just love the variety of levels in Eternal more. I think it's more or less essential that ya gotta love both 2016 and eternal.

[@shiknobi2055]

"I don't play games to be punished", *hmmmmm in dark souls

[@CurtyTails]

Seems bullshit to me with that one. Seriously the fact it busts your balls he should like doom eternal-maybe he has changed his mind with so many games replicating dark souls?

[@hybby]

@@CurtyTails i think he played on lower difficulties in Eternal. Didn't step up to NM or UNM for the face raking.

[@shiknobi2055]

@@CurtyTails well dark souls was always ball busting, I think Yahtzee's issue is with the change that was made

[@santerioksanen1239]

Dark Souls is mostly not punishing. Its challenging in a rewarding way. The extra credits have made a great video of this topic.

[@CurtyTails]

@@hybby i played on a slightly lesser diffculty and still found it tricky-hell they even say every difficulty will have people dying alot either way.

[@rjbeverly9745]

I suggest both parties attempt to construct their arguments before recording so that the conversation doesn't seem like two blindfolded guys trying to score points in a dart throwing contest.

[@bhageshkumar8601]

They are two different games and if one doesn't like one of them he/she could play other one.

[@myboy_]

@@bhageshkumar8601 yeah obviously, but then they wouldn't make this nice video

[@_C.J.]

It'S cAlLeD ImPrOv

[@dogbert02]

@@bhageshkumar8601 But they aren't different games. That's like saying that one Pokemon game is completely different than the other. They may do things a bit different, but they're still pretty much the same.

[@_C.J.]

@@dogbert02

[@Barytyrannus]

I like Doom 2016 better because, largely, I felt it had a better tone and more consistent look and feel. Everything in the world felt a lot more natural, the character designs felt believable for the world that was established, and nothing felt too out of place. Doom Eternal seems to have a tendency towards being overtly cartoony in certain aspects. Which isn't inherently bad, but felt out of place in the context of the game. Similarly, I liked how natural Doom 2016 was. No distractedly obvious parkour sections, and any floating platforms made sense for the hellish environment. Not to mention the color scheme of Doom 2016 was better overall, and the demons looked cooler because they, while still paying homage to past incarnations, still felt distinctly their own thing. Yes, none of this has to do with game play. Both games are amazingly fun, so when it comes to my favorite Im forced to focus on aesthetic, tone, and feel, cause the gameplay is perfect.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

Sure, it's more natural, but i certainly don't want to have red brown and gray shoved at my eyes the whole game

[@jcdenton2187]

One thing Eternal does better is the environmental variety, not to mention toning down some of the tint effects of Doom 2016. Everything else though, i agree with you. Doom 2016 felt more immersive and like a believable world, which served to compliment the excellent gameplay. Doom Eternal takes several steps back in the demon design and despite an increased focus on story, it bizarrely leans towards being as "arcadey" and "video gamey" as it can for level design, monster design, and gameplay.

[@HugoStiglitz88]

I partially agree with you but also find it insane that you think the gameplay is even. It isn't. 2016 was fun but it is NOWHERE NEAR as satisfying or rewarding as eternals gameplay. Especially the platforming. I genuinely don't understand how people can play about it. It's so much fun and so well done and totally respects the players time by instantly putting you back when you fall. It added so much more to the game than just doing the same boring exploration from 2016. I literally can't play 2016 anymore because it just seems so boring and trivial in comparison.

[@Barytyrannus]

@@HugoStiglitz88 I should note that at the time I made this comment, I had not actually played Doom Eternal... I KNOW, I KNOW. Before anyone says anything, that is the main reason I focussed on aesthetics. I bought Eternal last week and will be playing it in the following days. That being said, I ranked the gameplay as even, based on what footage I saw, because I found certain aspects of 2016's gameplay to feel clunky and certain aspects of Eternal, once again, based on footage, to feel out of place. As such, I felt those two things cancelled each other out. Anyone can feel different about it, but thats how I felt.

[@Enderguy059]

@@jcdenton2187 I never really understood the appeal of believability and realism in video games. Do people just get that much of a kick out of "If it's realistic, it could conceivably happen in the real world!" or are they truly that adverse towards utterly miniscule aspects of light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek humour?

[@RaSkipper]

This must be what the visions in Rich Evan's head look like when he's zoning out from Mike's abuse

[@PassiveNights]

RaSkipper except there McCauly Culkin is real

[@sigma6656]

Hey, I know who that is!

[@DeezNuts-bg2qp]

Ey, they took the suggestion that they should put the stances on thier podiums

[@bladesideentertainment7002]

You couldn't cower in a corner in doom 2016. Even staying still for too long meant you were DOOMED. Edit: Yes I played Doom eternal and I love it but this commemt was not about that.

[@tiggerbiggo]

Idk if you've played eternal but it's the same story there, on Ultra Violence and Nightmare, your health can drop to 0 in almost no time at all of you stop moving.

[@markfilipiuk4695]

@@tiggerbiggo yeah especially when there's some muncubi and gargoyles around

[@Chrinik]

@@tiggerbiggo The stopping to move part was never really an issue, the ten seperate keys you need to use in every combat encounter to not die on UV or NM in Eternal are...

[@tiggerbiggo]

@@Chrinik How is that an issue? If it's an issue for you then you aren't good enough to play nightmare anyway...

[@Chrinik]

@@tiggerbiggo Which is why I always played UV to begin with. But since the abilities on these buttons are on cooldowns, and I have a large fuckoff screen, I'm sorry that I have to look away from the demon about to punch my face in to check if I am allowed to press the button I need yet. More often than not I hit the right button and nothing happens because the cooldown was 1 second away from completing, and with Eternals mercyless combat, you fucking die. THAT is how that is an issue. I didn't come here to play a Moba with cooldown abilities that are vital to my success, I came to shoot demons with huge fuck-off guns, sorry, can't do that, the developers intended that I run out of ammo for the fun guns after ten seconds, need to use the crap guns, run out of ammo for those and then HOPE there is still some cannon-fodder around to chainsaw because running up to a Hell Knight to chainsaw him and impotently flail your chainsaw in their face because you didn't have the fuel get's really annoying. The game requires a hyper-specific approach to every encounter and it got tedious and boring about halfway through... Some people enjoy that, great. I wish I was one of them.

[@Nik-ff3tu]

"more is better" is supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek phrase. Hilarious that he tried to use it as an argument.

[@Raymando]

Yeah it felt as if he wanted to lose or something lol

[@lukes.854]

Eternal's side prefers 2016 too, they mentioned that in a podcast

[@bloopboop9320]

@@Raymando They are randomly assigned a side that they need to defend. I think that was intentionally a weak argument.

[@penatio]

Dark Souls vs Dark Souls 2 ;]

[@SpikeEffect]

Eternal felt off for some reason I couldn’t quiet figure out on my first playthrough, but after going through it again the pacing is drastically reduced compared to 2016’s. The pop ups telling you the enemies weakness every time you encounter a new enemy and the cutscenes dragged on a lot more I felt compared to 2016’s (although 2016 did have that one cutscene with Samuel Hayden did slow things down ever so slightly. also the fact you never left the doomguy’s perspective in 2016’s cutscenes helped me stay more engaged compared to eternal’s cutscenes).

[@thiccnicc4465]

But...You can turn the tutorials off. The reason they pop up more is because of the weak point system. 2016 didn't have that.

[@Horny_Fruit_Flies]

@@thiccnicc4465 D2016 didn't need minigame tutorials to explain its mechanics.

[@dathbane7546]

@@Horny_Fruit_Flies Its a less complex game.

[@AlexPinna531]

@@Horny_Fruit_Flies they only pop up in like the first level tbf, and when you replay the levels they never come up again

[@kingsleycy3450]

It is odd that Eternal elaborated on the story, when the joke of 2016 was that Doomguy was speedrunning through a plot that the side characters cared very much about.

[@jamesmoore3879]

I spent the first few levels of Doom Eternal thinking "this is great, but I do kind of like the refined experience of Doom 2016 a little better." By the end of it though, it kind of turned into the sequel I didn't know I wanted. Many of the reasons Yahtzee thought Eternal was inferior (the expectation of being constantly engaged in combat, the less structured and more open levels, etc.) were things I ended up loving. I understand a lot of his arguments though, but I still kind of dread the day I end up trying to pick 2016 back up after playing through Doom Eternal.

[@CurtyTails]

Same-cause the fact you have to better utilize your tools means you get to become a badass like an engineer building a badass mech-its easy to learn the basics but it will kick your ass and remind you of your FULL toolset till you utilize your shit better-and you still get to improvise your way-do you want to unload that chaingun and hope you have enough to kill the fat bastard or use some rockets to make it quick

[@lynackhilou4865]

James Moore yeah I like 2016 but I can't see playing it again and having the same fun as before after playing eternal

[@Frostburnphoenix]

not having the dash is so going to throw me off when i go to replay 2016 doom

[@Trio3224]

Totally agree. Doom eternal feels so much more balanced and a fair challenge then 2016. And I absolutely loved 2016. But eternal is much more exhilarating and deep on top of also being bigger and longer

[@CurtyTails]

@@Trio3224 damn straight-seriously the fact you can still choose but actually have to go back and forth makes a nice balance that feels more polished and how they want you to have fun. I dont mind choose to some extent-but as yahtzee said at one point-"this is your fucking game-show me what your fucking vision is you plebs for the pace you plebs" or something of the sort...im paraphrasing obviously

[@ooktar]

This series just doesn't work as well as when Yahtzee did it with Jim Sterling. When they did it they seemed like they actually had differing opinions they were passionate about trying to defend. This However is them trying to defend ideas that they really don't believe in and it comes off rather dull.

[@thepurplepanda4]

You kidding? I love how they keep floundering lol

[@bddb9239]

But in this case Yahtzee actually does think Doom 2016 is better than Doom Eternal...

[@ooktar]

@@bddb9239 1/3 videos of him actually believing his own point isn't really something to celebrate.

[@ooktar]

@@thepurplepanda4 I mean if that's the point of the series is them to just flounder about a topic then I guess they succeeded but I was actually kinda hoping for some legitimate debating between the two. When they aren't that passionate about their arguments then it doesn't hold my interest.

[@deshaunbaker2220]

@@ooktar I do agree with that as it can bring more inspection into the topics they talk about

[@tomm5663]

"Doom eternal is the Portal 2 of Doom 2016's Portal" Well shit guess I'm getting Doom eternal then.

[@AarturoSc]

It is a good analogy, tho.

[@emerson-biggons7078]

I played 1 and 2... I loved 2 WAAAY more, and as an analogy for eternal, that is also the case.

[@emerson-biggons7078]

Never mind they patched slope jumping, games bad goodnight

[@84jesterx]

Just remember that even good 'ol Yahtzee had the same feeling for that Portal 2 in a way. In his view, bigger usually doesn't mean better and what was initially within the first game made it stand out more to him. So when the sequel comes out and expands, he thinks it unnecessary padding. So with Doom Eternal, I expected him to have the similar reaction.

[@nathanallwood249]

That is exactly what Yahtzee believed about both franchises. Portal 2 he judged as his game of 2011, but he still kept saying that Portal was better because it was shorter and told a story during good puzzles, while Portal 2 took you out of the puzzles to tell more story. Just to quote: "Is Portal 2 good? Yes! Is Portal 2 better than Portal 1? No!"

[@NaumRusomarov]

Doom Eternal is indeed "we heard you liked cheesecake, so we made everything in your office out of cheesecake. Even the chair."

[@deathbunny3048]

You mean, engaging, challenging and gooooooood? Yeah, they, they did....

[@ObitoUchiha-ck6kx]

Yeah doom 2016 is better.

[@deathbunny3048]

@@ObitoUchiha-ck6kx Yeah, no it isn't XD

[@ObitoUchiha-ck6kx]

@@deathbunny3048 it is for me

[@deathbunny3048]

@@ObitoUchiha-ck6kx Well that's good. I feel 2016 needed some more creativity and eternal delivers that.

[@mohammadsaleem5990]

12:39 But you can't stand over a pile of dead bodies in doom 2016. They disappear.

[@Radian333]

you can also 'do that' in eternal...

[@HezakHQ]

Lmao. This gave me a good laugh .

[@domromn1c]

But they stay... In your heart!

[@TARINunit9]

Doom 4 is refreshing, while Doom Eternal is refined. Doom 4 felt like a completely new experience not just for the Doom franchise but games in general -- few things are more awesome as when you've blasted your way halfway into Khadingur Sanctum, pick up the new Super Shotgun, and unlock the demon audio logs revealing that you're an eons-old demon grinder known as "the Doom Slayer, crown of the Night Sentinels". Doomy Ternal doesn't have any of that spark, I feel (it's too busy trying to retcon Sam Hayden) but virtually all of my complaints about Doom 4's gameplay are gone. Fast travel at the end of a level to go hunt for secrets, all the useless weapon mods were upgraded into something better (except the Microwave Beam), and the grenades were woven into combat so much better I now actually remember I have them. Also the multiplayer isn't a generic Halo knockoff anymore; I played some of Battlemode and it's actually neat

[@QuckHead]

The massive amounts of lag in Battlemode can be a deal breaker for a lot of players tho. It would probably be very good on LAN i imagine.

[@bonelesschickennuggets1868]

If you connect the dots Hayden actually makes sense as the Seraphim, bits it’s quite the large amount of hints so let’s keep it relatively simple. For whatever reason the Seraphim Samur Makyr betrays it’s own kind in favor of powering up the slayer, the steals the resurrecting IA of the Makyr the Father and later disappears. Because of the nature of his species he transforms into a human Samuel Hayden but shortly after he suffers from brain cancer (Makyrs don’t age but they suffer from physical and mental degradation) and transforming the Father into Vega he uses it again to make himself a robot, unfortunately his attempts to “discover” argent end up being revealed by the demons and they send in a double agent (Olivia) to corrupt the UAC from within, Hayden makes counter plans in order to make defenses on earth and also liberate his old ally the Slayer. But, the Slayer doesn’t trust argent and wants to destroy it all, Hayden can’t permit it because it jeopardizes the entire war against the demons so he teleports him away at the end of 2016, the demons were already invading earth all the while they were dealing with the invasion on Mars, a red herring. Hayden returns to Earth and help it with the crucible and synthetic argent. Ultimately he is just buying time for the Slayer to return with Vega and the fortress of doom

[@TARINunit9]

@@bonelesschickennuggets1868 >If you connect the dots My problem is that exactly none of these dots exist in Doom 4. They're all retcons added in Doomy Ternal. Heck, if you go back to Doom 4 you see tons of evidence that Hayden CAN'T be the Seraphim, rather than evidence that he could be. And this is before we get into the overarching themes between the two characters: Hayden needs to be saved from himself, while the Seraphim is a self-sacrificing savior

[@bonelesschickennuggets1868]

Just because there was a picture of human Hayden doesn’t mean its not a Makyr, as I said, the Makyr suffer from physical and mental degradation and must go through a process called transfiguration which they use to avoid it, there’s plenty of evidence in Urdak which suggest the transfiguration it’s basically transferring consciousness into a new body. The transfiguration was made by the Father, it’s it’s uncovered Vega it’s him or rather created using his basis. Hayden made himself robot because he was suffering from brain cancer, allegedly. It’s not that big of a stretch thinking he used Vega/Father to transfigure into the *only* Cyborg body running on Argent which later on it’s stated to be of Makyr design.

[@TARINunit9]

@@bonelesschickennuggets1868 It's not just the portrait. Hang on while I get my old notes... All of the subtext in both games is telling you that for all his good intentions, Hayden is COMPLETELY irresponsible and blinded by his own ambition. He fucks up constantly because of this up. The only correct thing he did was tracking down the Doom Slayer. And he hasn't gotten any better by the end of Doom 4 -- when you read the codex in Eternal, you see what he was up to between games. He brought an artifact of hell, one that's covered in skulls, one that leaks hell energy, to Earth to try and duplicate it. This goes EXACTLY as poorly as it did on Mars; he either causes the Hell On Earth invasion, or makes it easier for the UAC to. Once again Hayden at least tries to put things right by heading the ARC and leading the counteroffensive, nearly sacrificing his life to protect innocent people. As a final brick in the wall, he discovers what this oh-so-precious hell energy he has made so many mistakes in the pursuit of is actually made out of: tortured human souls. His character arc comes to a close as he has a long-term "my God... what have I done?" moment. I find these details are very incongruous with what we know about Samur. Let's break this down step by step to show the contrast: Samur already knows hell energy is made of human souls. Hayden isn't going to find this out for several more millennia. Samur sees the prospect of infinite power as something to be wary and suspicious of. Hayden sees that same power and dives right into the trap multiple times. Samur tries to save Khan from herself. Hayden is the man who needs saving from himself. Samur is resigned to the life of a fugitive/imprisonment/execution for an act of insubordination, and has accepted his need for anonymity or exile after helping Slayer. Hayden is a messianic wannabee who, it is stated in both games, has a need to be seen as the hero; he literally built the Argent Energy Plant in such a way that only he could operate it, and held press releases to show off this design feature. I do like the theory that Samur decided to possess Hayden at some point, but I believe this would have happened very recently, such as when Hayden gets uploaded to the Fortress

[@DragonNexus]

Surprised Yahtzee didn't talk about the D̸̡̞̯̮̣̣͈̺̟͌̑̀̈́Ó̴̭̗̟͛̃̄̓͛̑̉͂̿͝Ǫ̶̧̱͇̟̰̻͖̹̤̹͇͒̑͆̾̽̄͐ͅM̸̛̩͕͉̖̖̔̒̓̆̓̚ ̸̹̫̩͎͍̮͖͔͎͉͆̉̄̄̆S̸̪͉̫̼̳̼͈̟̜͖͐̄͊̋̽̍̇̿̎̓̊͘̚L̴̢̺̟͍̹̬̞͍͉͚͓̝̊͂͌̾̋͗A̸̤͔̩͕̭͓̽̄͛̌̈́͝Y̴̡̡̛̼̬̦̪̰̳̬̩̳͍̫̱̿̾̏́̚͝E̸̲̣͒̒͐̈́̈́̄̇͆͘Ȑ̴̠̙̖̥̘̯̿͝ͅ's personality shift in Eternal. How there was less "I don't care, just tell me what to break, shoot or blow up to get the hell portal closed" Like how the game opened up to a monologue he cuts short by tossing the monitor aside. (And yes it was undone by having to listen to the robot dude later but whatevs). Eternal seems like it has a lot less of that. He'll stand around and just listen to what's going on when he should be cutting it short, blowing them up and carrying on.

[@jmurray1110]

Also the only time the voice worked was after the dark lord fight While I think the comic reference was a good touch they don’t work when actually spoken out loud

[@deanguitars15]

Eh I like having to play a game a certain way to a degree it's like saying basketball would be more fun if travelling was allowed and that would be true for people who are bad at basketball but the rest of us enjoy having to dribble.

[@foxilator4778]

okyeah whatever Good fucking analogy. I enjoy a good challenge in a game, and part of that challenge comes from the game forcing me to adapt to its rules and expectations. Some people are terrible and obviously won’t like that, but it’s not the game’s fault.

[@deanguitars15]

@@foxilator4778 To add to that I think I never got good at 2016 I never completed a nightmare playthrough because I never learned to play the game properly. Eternal forced me to play it correctly on uv so when it came time to try nightmare I knew how to play and was able to beat it relatively easily.

[@slckb0y65]

i fully agree with what you just said, but another analogy would be "what if we started playing basketball ... with our feet !" well yeah it's an idea, but then it's not basket ball anymore, and that's why they made a side sport called football. well same here, i'm not saying the ideas they included in doom eternal were bad, nor even badly implemented, but they had no place in a doom game. Doom Guy/Slayer isn't supposed to be able to do gymnastic from bars, have a shoulder cannon and shit like that, that would be amazing in a Predator game, but not in doom. doom have never been about forcing you to use a specific weapon on an enemy, at best some gave you an advantage like putting the enemy in permanent stun but none were truelly gimped like they are in 2016. on top of it they truelly fuck'd up with giving you so little ammo, forcing you to play the wait they want mean you don't get to experience anything for yourself, and tbh that really cut on the replay value/enjoyement.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

@@slckb0y65 most of the people that didn't like eternal that much are people that expected DOOM to be DOOM just becouse it's DOOM. I want a good game not an overrated experience just becouse you guys want to feel the doom in your hands and don't use your brain.

[@Adu767]

As a counter-point to Yahtzee's "stuck in a room with Sam Hayden" point in 2016, where he says that Doom Eternal has way more of that, in Doom 2016 you had to just stand around because the game made no effort to separate the cutscene from the gameplay. Immersive in Half Life 2, but a poor fit for Doom. In Doom Eternal, there is far more exposition, but just about all of them are proper cutscenes which have a skip button, or are lore entries that you can simply not read, or holograms and terminals you can walk right past. In this way, Doom Eternal has MORE story than 2016 for the people that want it, and LESS story than 2016 for the people that would rather not bother. Nothing in the cutscenes is necessary for playing the game.

[@NaumRusomarov]

skip buttons make a difference only when you play the game a second time. while you're playing the game the first time, you will click/watch/read whatever the game throws at you unless it is too bad or too much.

[@themetalone7739]

One of the things people praised 2016 so highly for was its deliberate lack of a true narrative, in a game that simply didn't need it. "Screw the story, I wanna kill some demons!" was the general feeling, at the time. To abandon that, and suddenly decide "Oh, wait...we DO actually have this really convoluted story that we want to tell you!" It just makes it feel like a different game. They could have laid the ground-work for this story in 2016, but they very clearly made an effort NOT to do that. To keep it bare-bones. Can you skip it? Yes, but that only raises further questions of whether or not it was necessary, in the first place, and whether that effort would have been better spent elsewhere. Idk, just my two cents.

[@vigorouslethargy]

@@themetalone7739 They specifically *did* lay the groundwork for this story in 2016. They talk about the Seraphim that gave the Doomslayer his power. They mention him killing the Titan that attacked Taras Nabad. They mention the Betrayer. They mention how he and the Sentinels were locked in Hell. All the lore in 2016 was specifically a foundation for Eternal to expand on. Personally, I liked the added story. It didn't detract at all from the breakneck gameplay because I made the *choice* to play until I got tired, then relax by reading the codex entries before turning off the game. And people who don't care about the codex entries can make the *choice* to skip them entirely.

[@jazzman5989]

The Metal One 2016 has a true narrative and a lot of the convoluted lore in Eternal is found in codex entries in 2016. Neither has a convoluted story on the surface, first is evil cultist let’s demons loose on Mars and Eternal is evil Alien let’s demons loose on Earth for energy to prolong her life.

[@zedmercury2605]

Personally speaking I thought both 2016 and eternal had lore entries and holograms, I've never played the games so take my thoughts with a grain of salt but I thought 2016 both had their fair share of skippable story. And if that's the case, then all you have to look at is cutscenes which...I'm on the fence about. While lore entries and level design are designed to be easily ignorable, cutscenes are directly designed to be a way of putting the story right in your face, the only reason it has a skip button is because 1. Its modern game design, and 2. It's more for people who are replaying the game then those who are first starting. I see doom eternal's reasoning for adding the skip button is less of "they're making the game easily ignorable" but more because "they dont want the game to be tedious on repeated runs." So if you take that into consideration, and play the game how the developers probably wanted you to play it, it would have way more story shoved in your face. ...I mean it still sucks that the one cutscene from doom 2016 is non-skippable though...

[@legoguy217]

4:59 WOW! Copying from DOOM 1's monsters is considered "pandering" now. That's the absolute opposite opinion from what Yahtzee has said in another review in which he argued in favor of copying from old Doom! "Modern realistic graphics tend to make everything shadowy and covered in Christmas lights, but when you see a demon in Doom 1, there can be no doubt as to what it is, for all two and a half animation frames of its big chunky sprite stand as luridly pink as a freshly spanked flamingo and with an actual identifiable expression on its face, for me it was a point against Doom 2016 that all the demons have generic skull faces with the teeth outside the mouth which doesn’t express anything but an urgent need to floss." ~ Doom Retrospective This is also why slapping random debates together is a bad idea.

[@t.s.7166]

On the contrary, in Yahtzee's doom eternal review he calls the redesign of doom enemies and pickups to its gen 1 design pandering What Yahtzee said in his 2016 review was that he preferred the old demon designs BECAUSE THEY HAD MORE EXPRESSION. Get your facts straight buddy

[@AugmentedSpartan]

@@t.s.7166 He's quoting a different video, why don't you read his entire comment before replying like this?

[@dud5606]

@Digonto Zahid Hes a critic. A funny one that focuses on games faults rather than their strenghts (because as he himself has said theres more value in this kind of critique) but hes still a critic. It really isnt that hard to notice when hes using a hyperbole, being sarcastic, outright joking or being serious. And that statement was definitely a genuine critique of games visuals/ art style. So now when hes contradicting his own statement with another one that makes no sense people point it out. Simple as that.

[@dud5606]

@@t.s.7166 Sure, but Eternals demon designs that are call back to D1 designs and are much more expressive than the ones in 2016 so they have addressed his issue. Apparently now he has problem with those because theyre too similar to D1 designs? Makes no sense.

[@dud5606]

​@Digonto Zahid I agree to some extent I but have to say that even though hes more of a comedian than a critic I think his "reviews" are very much serious. Afterall, theyre funny because mostly what he says is actually true. But in this case I think hes flat out wrong about Eternals demon designs.

[@DoomRulz]

I've watched so much RLM that I can see Jack reacting and laughing in my head, over the drawing seen here. The guy is a character.

[@user-ot2me4ic3s]

Jack rules

[@TheStrayHALOMAN]

For me Eternal is perfect minus a few nit picks revolving around how customization was massively downgraded to skins over the great system 2016 had... also the old Revenant I though looked better.

[@Evilnicko]

I like both games in their own right honestly. If Doom Eternal didn't build upon Doom 2016 and instead just kept the gameplay and the level of story telling the same then it would mostly be just a rehash.

[@Evilnicko]

@@ichijofestival2576 I agree to some extent but I feel as though they were right to change up the whole hallways between big arenas thing from 2016, as well as the environment. While I loved the Mars environment from 2016 I think by the end I definitely had my fill and they were right to at least switch that up. I also can understand why people DON'T like the new additions to gameplay but personally I think they're great and make for a more challenging and fun experience, so I guess it's down to personal opinion.

[@mikerhoa]

Both games are 10/10. No debate necessary.

[@nahuelahpa1881]

but it is a rehash

[@Krystalmyth]

A rehash would have been an improvement.

[@Krystalmyth]

@@mikerhoa yeah fuck no.

[@jamesb6990]

Jack didn't mention that all the cut scenes are skippable in Eternal, and were completely unskippable in 2016

[@lugbzurg8987]

Not really. There are several unskippable cutscenes in Eternal that seem to be at complete random. One that comes to mind is in Nekroval in the cutscene between fighting your first "tyrant" and dropping down the big, deep hole with all the tortured people in the walls.

[@grimtygranule5125]

@@lugbzurg8987 That "cutscene" lasts about 4 seconds and you have full control of your movement during it. I think you'd've survived. The only unskipable cutscene in the game is the first 10-15 seconds of the intro, while the screen is black and the slayer symbol is appearing. And also maybe the gladiators intro.

[@lugbzurg8987]

@Cakeshine No, that's you. All I did correct one person that Eternal has unskippable cutscenes. That's it. Then you decided to overreact and state objectively-false information. You're just nitpicking.

[@jamesb6990]

@@lugbzurg8987 I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or are just stupid, but its pretty obvious the point of my argument is that Doom 2016 has multiple minutes long exposition dumps that you are forced to sit through while Doom Eternal only makes you sit through a 5 second clip of a door opening. The difference is pretty significant and meaningful unless you are literally so dumb as to believe that Doom Eternal handled cut-scenes just as poorly as 2016

[@lugbzurg8987]

@@jamesb6990 And...? My only "argument" was that unskippable cutscenes in Doom Eternal simply *exist.* Nothing more and nothing less. Certainly nothing about which game had them any longer. You're the one making mountains out molehills here, and trying to argue with me over something I never even said in the first place. Quit putting words in people's mouths and drop the strawmen.

[@ajmunn1229]

Beat 2016 slowly over a year, fired up eternal and I can't stand it, it took what felt like a dark almost metroid like atmosphere and story and gave it a bunch of arcade power upside, too many enemies, and convoluted tool systems. I will probably play more (just did mission 1) but out the gate I just didn't feel eternal at all.

[@Nopunsforyou]

I know this is a hella late reply, but i agree in the fact that i loved 2016’s ambience and it was dark and gory but had the right tone that was unsettling yet awesome at the same time

[@BrickBuster2552]

The thing about that hub world Doomcave thing is it's way too cozy, and it bolsters the idea that Doom Guy is some kind of superhero. He's not. He's the right man in the wrong place, like Gordon Freeman except motivated by anger rather than worry, and persevering through brute force rather than intellect. He's not on this mission because no one else can do it; he's just the only one wearing the hazard suit.

[@nullplan01]

"The way a real man basks in his victory is by standing over a big pile of corpses." Not in Doom 2016, you don't, because enemies despawn once killed.

[@user-iq2no3lk2i]

Neither in Doom Eternal, where corpses burn away like demonic holiday sparkler sticks. Gave me a laugh first time I noticed that.

[@Enderguy059]

@@user-iq2no3lk2i I mean, the same effect is used in Doom 2016, not sure how you didn't notice it until Eternal

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

Its probably for lag reasons. Still wish there was a "keep corpses" option for ppl with beast computers to at least show us what a completed encounter would look like

[@OfficialREVENGEMusic]

@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly there are mods

[@calebcole8407]

I think the reason there was so much seemingly unnecessary stuff in doom eternal’s combat was because they didn’t want to give fans more of the same. And it’s really difficult to top a combat system that’s as close to perfect as we’re going to get. I’ll admit. Eternal makes you turn your brain on a lot more than 2016. That may not always be a good thing, but i definitely got more enjoyment out of eternal because at the end of 2016 the combat began to feel monotonous. With all the new stuff at my disposal in eternal I found myself wanting more after beating it

[@RaptorShadow]

I see Jack's about as good at presenting his case as he ever was...

[@JCstock]

Never played either Doom, but Yahtzee feels more like he's struggling a bit on some of these argument points. Like he want's to say "Yeah you got a point" but can't.

[@AusWolf1]

Admitting that your conversation partner can be right in their own way is a polite way to carry on a debate. You don't have to bash your opponent into the ground with every argument.

[@Knights_of_the_Nine]

Doom Eternal's enemies are an actual threat. I remember trying to let a revenant kill me in 2016 on nightmare with minimal movement and it just can't. The game is just WAY easier. Doom Eternal actually balances every enemy to kill you.

[@Kyrator88]

The AI in 2016 is "Get sight of player then stand still and shoot at their last position"

[@ubertoaster99]

@@Kyrator88 Nah, some of the enemies are VERY mobile.

[@Kyrator88]

@@ubertoaster99 no, they're not. Maybe if you're new to shooters but they are neither mobile nor aggressive enough. Hell Knights and Barons afk running at you is not mobility and the revenants literally have the same shitty preset animation and flight path. The only mobile enemy in the game is that douche who teleports around and he also subscribes to "lol imma stand afk in line of sight until you shoot me"

[@ubertoaster99]

@@Kyrator88 Was thinking mostly of imps, but it's true for pinkies and summoners too. Hardly anything is static. Even the basic soldiers change position. I was new to shooters when I played the original Wolf 3D, for what that's worth.

[@arturssitdikovs4480]

I thought Doomguy was unstoppable killing machine not Prince of Persia.

[@LawlCam24]

My KZbin app left the "skip segment" option up for the entire video. I think it's trying to say something...

[@Gatlinggunman]

After playing both on UV, i much prefer 2016 over Eternal. A lot more freedom in tackling hordes of demons, a lot less aggravating game mechanics, demons aren't always crowding you, enough ammo to get you through a confrontation without chainsaw, Imps don't feel nerfed, big open arenas with enough room to breath, BFG doesn't feel nerfed, Glory kills are more gory, No annoying "tips" every time you die, Better bosses, and no mental exhaustion after finishing a level.

[@michaelgimenez4032]

I did like the ruthlessness in Eternal because fewer demons could still get you. Level design and overall feel of 2016 was perfect while it felt flawed in Eternal.

[@Chrinik]

Agreed wholeheartedly, felt very railroaded in Eternals combat approach, both physically and gameplay wise.

[@SnivyTries]

"Did you know you can SHOOT THE BIG GLOWING RED THINGS on a Mancubus? DID YOU KNOW you can hit the shieldbearer WHEN HE SWINGS? SHOOT THE TURRET off of spiders."

[@AusWolf1]

@@SnivyTries This is one of the things that makes me feel like D:E is meant for a much younger audience than Doom '16, and a much younger audience than I am.

[@SnivyTries]

@@AusWolf1 now that you mention it, there are a few things that seemed rather cartoonish...some of the sound effects they chose actually feel really awkward in the game.

[@JeremyC]

They forgot one of the other important fights, the music. The composer himself said that Doom 2016 had better music than Doom Eternal because the publisher didn't mess with it.

[@mohammadsaleem5990]

He didn't say that about the in game music. He was talking about the official soundtrack they released because it wasn't mixed properly.

[@stromstorm7467]

It was the soundtrack they mucked up, not the game music wasnt it?

[@mohammadsaleem5990]

@@stromstorm7467 no the game music was fine. The official release of the ost was mixed improperly.

[@maxresdefault_]

I’m not sure I love the tone of these episodes. I think I’d rather have a podcast with natural conversation as opposed to the formal ‘debate’ style

[@WOLF36554]

That podcast already exists.

[@kevinscales]

This is just an intro for that very podcast (available on spotify and itunes)

[@NicoNoInteresa]

the podcast still exists, i dont think theres anything wrong with experimenting with new styles but i personally like this format. i just think some debates are better than others, for example i enjoyed the debate on difficulty levels way more than if X game is good or not

[@executioner_ecgbert884]

These are amusing but it's hard to tell what points are being made that the defendant actually believes or if he's just trying to play the part.

[@NepSpoon]

TLDR at the bottom I have to agree with Yahtzee on this one. I’ve played both till completion and I just *hated* Eternal by the end of it. I loved it in the beginning, but then I started noticing game breaking bugs and cutscene after cutscene after cutscene. Eternal also forces you to do certain things, such as the pit at the bottom of the base. Unlike the cutscenes, you *have* to do it. I wouldn’t be able to count on both hands the amount of times I fell through the map, got caught on a wall, going somewhere I thought I could but then I instantly died because I wAsNt aLLowED tO even though I clearly could, was forced into a corner that I physically couldn’t get out of, Blood Punch didn’t always work, regular punches were unbelievably weak, I could go on for a while. There was one section that *forced* you to go a certain way to get a one-up on a flesh pillar because of, you guessed it, invisible walls. As much as I loved Eternal in the beginning, I almost didn’t finish it because I was just too frustrated. Unlike 2016, I was glad that I finished Eternal, *because* it was over, whereas I wanted to keep playing 2016 after I finished it. I only ended up finishing Eternal because I wasn’t given a refund because I already redeemed the code I was given to play it and it was a AUD$90 game EDIT: Don’t even get me started on the performance issues I had, regardless of settings. Had to get an external program to fix graphical bugs that caused my fps to dip below 50 (144Hz monitor). The amount of things I had to remember and think about before killing a demon was a bit much. Do I need armour or health more? Do I glory kill or chainsaw? Meanwhile 20 demons are eating out my ass from the outside in and having to remember which button does what (basically went straight from a replay of 2016 to Eternal) because the button mapping changed. Then there was one scene at the beginning of the camp that had a yellow keycard. The ONLY one in the game, then that was completely forgotten about. The ammo is unbelievably scarce as well. I wouldn’t be able to tell you how many times I died because I couldn’t find a tiny little zombie in between three mancubus, a baron of hell, a couple hell knights, several cacodemons, a tyrant, and heaps of other things, to set on fire and chainsaw because I needed armour and ammo TLDR; 2016 was a more faithful to the original DOOM, whereas Eternal felt more like Titanfall 2

[@BlueWoWTaylan]

I DID want to learn more about the backstory in Doom Eternal though. For the gameplay changes, yea the Eternal's ''constantly chainsaw and burn etc'' can get a bit overwhelming when you just wanna shoot demons and not be out of ammo after killing 1 or 2.

[@ryanogrady893]

Let's all laugh at an industry that never learns anything teeheehee

[@bhageshkumar8601]

DOOM ETERNAL and DOOM 2016 are two different games and comparing them is kinda redundant. They never went with safe sequel and made something different and everyone had to respect that. Doom eternal's cutscenes are great they are made so that they can be skip.

[@princetchalla2441]

Except a falling rock, or breakable secret that zooms you away, or when you get a new collectible unless you find an animation skip like I did during my 1000th ultra nightmare run.

[@jcdenton2187]

12:00ish I actually somewhat agree here. I normally hate hub worlds, but Eternal was smart enough to keep it limited to one that isn't enormous. Being able to physically walk around and see your collectables is quite nice as well. My only complaint is that the hub is a little confusing to navigate, and that despite its small size it often takes awhile to get to one place from another, namely the Ripatorium.

[@Omnywrench]

I think the ability to get health, ammo, and armor from demons via flame belch/chainsaw/glory kills actually helps the pace of the fights. When I played Doom Eternal and got in a big battle, I never found myself stopping to scramble around looking for ammo or health packs around the room; I just used the new tools and techniques to keep up a steady stream of pickups. But because it requires player interaction, it feels more like you earned those pickups, rather than simply waiting for a bar to regenerate (chainsaw fuel aside).

[@kingwormo8221]

Doom'16 is the best Doom game, and Doom: Eternal is the best Turok sequel we've ever gotten.

[@HezakHQ]

The marauder feels extremely similar to the campaigner doesn't it.

[@EvillBob]

I was thinking more Metroid Prime but now that you've pointed it out... yeah, Doom Eternal is a better Turok game than a Prime game. Which is funny thing to argue when talking about a Doom game.

[@dstns]

Doom Eternal is an okay Serious Sam spinoff strapped to a mediocre Mario clone

[@zerotactix5739]

@@dstns only if you bad at Eternal.

[@Medytacjusz]

I like it better when the sides are not assigned randomly. There seems to be more weight and personal stake to arguments which makes for a more engaging, less detached listening experience. If you happen to both have the same opinion... maybe take turns in trying to invent the strongest possible counterarguments? So that not one person is stuck on one side? It would feel less artificial while still providing the mental gymnastics and some spirit of fairness.

[@vwtifuljoe954]

Im not sure if its supposed to be like this, but it sounds like the audio track has been cut up and reassembled

[@qweriop]

What do you think of the multiplayer? Did snapmap have an impact on 2016?

[@HiddelS143]

Doom (2016) seemed more cohesive and focused than doom eternal (in my honest opinion), where as eternal seemed like it was trying to juggle one too many balls at once

[@nomad_boreal]

I'm with you. The argument that "more is better" may sound good on paper, but doesn't necessarily hold up in practice.

[@wizradical4905]

i can kind of agree with this, as much as i prefer eternal, doom 2016 set out to do basically one thing and only one thing and it put all the focus on that, for better and for worse, but still much more consistent and with far fewer unnecessary loose ends.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

But 2016 despite its siplicity had a lot of flaws that eternal fixed. Don't act like it was perfect becouse there was a lot of stuff that didn't work

[@HiddelS143]

Mr.Diesel nothing is perfect & doom 2016 had its fair share of problems, but eternal has much more glaring flaws than 2016, don't get me wrong, I wish more AAA fps games tried to do what doom does (and they probably will)

[@WaveOfDestiny]

@@HiddelS143 i don't think eternal has many flaws at all. The "more" stuff they added in felt perfectly balanced

[@deydy96]

What yatzee call "deathmatch arena" are actually very well structured every single one of them are made in a way that wherever you want to go you can just keep going and never stop moving in a constant flow without having to face a wall ever it's pinnacle map design for the purpose that's trying to achieve

[@buca117]

That sounds exactly like a deathmatch arena.

[@cityguard4847]

@@buca117Yeah they kinda just keep going in circles to explain... exactly what it is.

[@badadvice6276]

6:32 got an ad for rick and morty. Perfect transition. "It makes you-" "prepare yourself"

[@boiledelephant]

I feel Yahtzee about Eternal's pandering and excess. I think it's a bit overstuffed and compromised.

[@deathbunny3048]

Really... we're gonna start bitching about, EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWW SO MUCH CONTENT, I'D LIKE IT MORE IF THERE WAS LESS FUCKING GAME IN MY GAME!!! You're the reason the industry SUCKS right now! Go buy a lootbox.

[@executioner_ecgbert884]

More isn't always better.

[@kraut2487]

it is in this case. in 2016, almost everything was greys and browns, eternal is way more colorful

[@boiledelephant]

@@deathbunny3048 I don't know if you already understand this about internet communication, but as a personal service to you I just wanted to let you know that everyone who reads comments like this immediately knows that you're still in school. And if you're not still in school, you should speak to someone about what's going on in your life, because dayum.

[@deathbunny3048]

@@boiledelephant No longer in school, life is going great, I just get annoyed when sensitive little snowflake fucktards start criticizing a work of art on merits that are not only unfounded, but also complete and total retardation. So yeah, dayum is right, while incorrect, it's spelled damn, you learn that in school, maybe you should go there... Because damn.

[@shasha2727]

the "our current political climate disagrees with you" joke was S tier, excellent discourse.

[@deathbunny3048]

yeah cause, we all have demons running through the streets, like in doom????

[@PringoOrSomething]

"Fans do not know what they want' That's some big EA energy right there

[@streamergoalline]

Fans dont know what they want in terms that fans want many different things.

[@badassjorge9272]

@@streamergoalline ^^^^

[@executioner_ecgbert884]

It also seems like everytime developers try to implement their fans ideas, they do them in the worst ways possible.

[@AudioLemon]

I liked this format. Please do more like this. The over and back was fair and funny. No winner was decided and there was a few sound effect gags in there and i might see in editing if you could squeeze a few more subtle audio gags in. Much prefer this to let’s play Yahtzee.

[@zoiuduu]

Where I can see a playlist about those debates?

[@CyrilOfTheWind]

Requiring you to swap weapons and use everything removes the ability to play how you want to, I don't mind playing a game that has one style of play, there are a lot of them, but after doom 2016 was like, here's 50k ways to play, pick however many you like and have a blast.

[@Raymando]

How does Eternal force you to switch weapons? Also, I do think Doom kind of pushed you to switching weapons by restricting the fuel for chainsaw anyway. How is Eternal any different?

[@ZeWrAtH]

Raymando Try playing on UV or Nightmare then. The Cacodemon will take millions of hits if you’re not using the correct suggested weapon, this means you’ll run out of ammo much faster and reduce the chances of your survival. It’s tedious as fuck.

[@deanwrubel5730]

@@ZeWrAtH if you played nightmare in doom 2016 you really couldn't get away with just using the ssg

[@neithan1999]

@@deanwrubel5730 Honestly you definitely could, I loved doom 2016 and finished ot on nightmare and you could just cheese the game with the ssg and the gauss cannon, the only difference is that enemies could kill you faster and it took a few more shots to defeat the demons, but you could still tear through everything with relative ease with just those 2 weapons because they had way too much ammo, and the chainsaw if not fully charged was absolutely useless since you never ran out of ammo because the game constantly threw you more and more, it became repetitive after the first half of the game

[@MGosling94]

And by that you mean "you can beat the whole game without changing your weapon" Yeah, that seems like a worse thing to me? Doom's not an open world RPG. You play it how it wants you to play it. End of story.

[@_dFour_]

I love how saying "I want the mindless combat from 2016 back in Eternal... basically undermines the artistic direction eternal took. Isnt Yatzhees whole stick "Games are art"?" Eternal isnt a mindless Combat driven shooter... it requires the Player to think and in the process makes you a god at the game. I saw the KH3 livestream after the ep released... and yatzhee didnt use any of the mechanics in that game... how do we expect him to do it in eternal then?

[@_dFour_]

@@macmcskullface1004 Thats just sado masochism. Dont kink shame yatzz

[@CurtyTails]

@@macmcskullface1004 i think its more he picks and chooses when he wants something more thoughtful in gameplay and when he wants something mindless and i think without propers context of when he picks and chooses it feels like bullshit. You think he would want the gameplay to bust his balls to learn his full tool set and want him to be faster and utilize improvising with everything at his disposal. The fact you can still improvise how you want in a slight panic shows it still has the doom 2016 feel but without cheesing it with just a shotgun-game will kick you in the balls and say YOU HAVE TO DO BETTER THAN THAT

[@_dFour_]

@@dante19890 Which is fair enough, im here for the comedy... but this is slowly turning into the "sinema sins" debacle

[@JustASuscriber]

@@macmcskullface1004 That's because Souls-likes are a lot less thinking than you think (in PvE at least). There's little "strategy", there's a lot more "reflexes".

[@SnuSnuDungeon]

I love how you guys are clearly having fun with this💜

[@anarchohelenism]

All I know is when I play 2016, I'm having fun. When I play Eternal, I feel like I'm going down a checklist of how the game *wants* me to play.

[@cunt5000]

I smashed though the doom 2016 campaigin in one amazing 15 hour binge then... never touched it again. I'm 51 hours and on the 3rd playthrough of doom eternal. The best summary I've found is thus: Doom 2016 made you feel like a badass. Doom Eternal forces you to actually play like a badass.

[@noop9k]

Being forced to do things is anything but being a badass. You are not being a badass, you are forced by the game to play a badass. This is what Yahtzee was talking about, I think.

[@alecgirling6120]

noop9k I'm sorry but when something forces you to do something, like face two tyrants in the third or fourth slayer gate for example, and you overcome the challenge, it definitely IS badass. Being able to do whatever (like have infinite bfg ammo) isn't badass, because you're not accomplishing anything challenging or rewarding

[@yeetimusprime3147]

@@noop9k "You are forced by the game to play a badass" And *that* is much more rewarding. It feels so much better to be given an incredible obstacle and *overcome it,* rather than just have everything be made easy for you.

[@noop9k]

Alec Girling I’m not buying Bethesda stuff so can’t talk from my own experience, but being forced to farm stuff from monsters with chainsaw takes away fun of using it at will. This is too much like work. I don’t necessarily want to be forced to jump through hoops to win. On older Doom games you used chainsaw because you felt like it. Or maybe because you had zero ammo. Or because it was convenient in a certain situation. Now, as I can see, you *must* use it.

[@manavsridharan3811]

@@noop9k What Yahtzee was actually talking about is that Doom 2016 allowed you to switch off and SSG through. However, Doom as a franchise has always been a very tactical shooter. You need to ensure you don't take damage and learn enemy patterns for unique enemies and also figure out the best way to deal with them. I feel Eternal is truer to that.

[@danielhawkins9717]

3:00 Their can never be to much cheese cake

[@SpoopySquid]

Glad somebody said it

[@QuckHead]

I think you misspelled "There can only be too much cheese cake." I mean does anyone ACTUALLY like cheese cake?

[@danielhawkins9717]

Marcus B yes and if you don’t I’m sorry to inform you but your a communist

[@QuckHead]

@@danielhawkins9717 *You're

[@itsallrigged7295]

Literally all of these sound like Yahtzee has a gun to his head forcing him to speak slower lol

[@flightlesschicken7769]

Pretty sure the demons were always aliens, in a sense. Humanity saw into the demon dimensions and took those visions to be hell. I don't believe it was ever actually Christian hell so much as Christian hell was based off the demon's dimension. At least that is what I was told from someone who was into the lore back during DOOM 1 and 2's day Edit: spelling

[@michaelgimenez4032]

Well not much difference between aliens and demons really, one is from another planet while the other from another dimension. Your guns are very xenophobic so they didn't really notice the distinction.

[@markoerakovic9899]

yeah except they are actually devouring human souls which implies existence of souls in first place and afterlife. So no its not alien but demons in the end. Even antagonist doe the Earth invasion since demons must consume soul to generate Ardent energy aliens need, and after you kill the bitch she says you made massive problems and something about "Maker"...

[@flightlesschicken7769]

@@markoerakovic9899 There may be souls, but depending on the nature of souls in that universe there may not be an afterlife. The souls may simply cease to exist. Plus it couldn't be be biblical hell unless souls go there when people die, which I do not believe they do.

[@joeysandoval5269]

@@flightlesschicken7769 DOOM Eternal does prove that souls exist and do continue to exist after death. And yes, these souls go to Hell after death to be harvested in Hell for energy so yes there technically an afterlife. Not a good one, but an afterlife nonetheless. The DOOM Hell and Urdak aren't meant to be Christian Heaven and Hell, but I'd Software's take on them using inspiration from that.

[@flightlesschicken7769]

@@joeysandoval5269 I have yet to play nthe game. Waiting for Switch so I can have gyro controls. I don't have a PC that can run it so gryos are the closest thing to a mouse. Until then, I'll take your word for it

[@serifir8663]

The episodes are longer and more interesting when Yahtzee is on a side he agrees with. We need more of that ^^

[@zakanyimen]

I like that eternal doesn't make 2016 obsolute.

[@Gundam_JAY]

I acidentily stumbled onto this video but now I am actually interested. I believe both sides presented generally interesting points for each game. So I would genually reccomend if you had not done so already to do a similar video on which movie adaptation of doom is better.

[@bludstaynd7999]

They say you are more OP in Doom 2016 but you can become deadlier in DE with some work by earning it and it looks so much cooler because of it.

[@De13373r]

Ooh, this is a toughie

[@pyrojinn]

I want congratulate Doom Eternal for being a proper sequel, meaning bringing everything Doom 2016 has and then some. But there's something in Doom 2016 that Eternal didn't, and I can't point my finger to what that is. Maybe the cohesive level design? The lack of story? The simplistic gunplay? Or because I have a boomer mentality and everything older is better? idk.

[@bonelesschickennuggets1868]

I think a bid deal about this it’s the sequelitis, Doom 2016 was such a unique game back then and because of the rather horrendous marketing campaign nobody had high expectations, but the game pulled a curve ball and totally makes itself a masterpiece. Eternal on the contrary, really hyped everyone with an amazing marketing campaign, pretty much every single month there was an announcement or trailer, and because of the high expectations there’s less of that shock/surprise factor, because it’s more of the “same”, if you know what I mean. Funny thing is, the devs didn’t even expected 2016 to be a big hit, and now that they focused on making Eternal a better experience somehow there’s a minority saying Eternal sucks, something I can’t disagree more

[@IsonDaya]

@@pyrojinn So for me, a lot of it was the feeling of power in 2016. The weapons had weight, the UI was your helmet's information, and even your /fists/ had weight. In Eternal, the Arcade-mode stylings and pinatas of ammo have been taking further, and it does feel like an arena shooter. Heck, the chainsaw we pulled out of a corpse is now literally spinning in midair for you to get from a weapon pad. The environments feel less... cohesive. The levels are much longer, but they feel entirely disjointed from one other. The UAC base and Hell felt like two distinct and complete environments that were just broken up by the levels as pacing.

[@quesamo]

The possibility of Hell being an alien realm is left ambigous. It can still fully be the actual christian hell, there's no issue with that

[@deathbunny3048]

Actually it can't cause they depict heaven as well, and it's not the christian heaven at all, since heaven and hell are linked, it's not christian

[@quesamo]

@@deathbunny3048 They can be linked without being the same. Just because Urdak is established as an alien world doesn't mean Hell is too

[@GreenLantern814]

This is the episode where this concept finally took off for me. I enjoyed the other two episodes, but this one was the first that made me laugh out loud several times. I'm looking forward to following this show now

[@skyllalafey]

Love any of the content with the both of 'ya, keep up the great work

[@bensmith8806]

6:20 Yahtzee undercuts his own point here, I think. The player never has to stop murdering to go find ammo, you can always generate it yourself through murder.

[@vidmuncher]

through a CERTAIN KIND of murder, usually

[@andrewmcnally5013]

One thing I will give DOOM: Eternal was it's greater story telling, but overall DOOM 2016 is the better game because it has a tighter focus and better balance. I think the fact that they added an extra lives system into DOOM: Eternal meant that they felt it necessary to ramp up encounters. And to be honest, having to face more enemies than an average Tyranid swarm by yourself is great, but not when it's all at once. I found myself being overwhelmed by enemy numbers quite a bit, and with some enemies taking more of a beating than the Australian east coast over 2019-2020, it's a nightmare to deal with. There also feels like an overabundance of tools too, between the Dash, Chainsaw, Flamethrower and both types of grenades on top of all of your weapons. Whenever I came back to the game after a day or two, I would forget I had half of them and die or accidentally use them a lot by bumping the wrong controller button. There are also certain enemies (and yes I mean THAT FUCKER!) who are just anti-DOOM. And having them show up amongst other enemies is a pacing nightmare. These enemies weren't a "refreshing change up", they were just flow-killers. Now to watch the video.

[@klo45pl]

Oh boy i have to disagree on many things that you said. Doom 2016 had no balance as soon as you get the gauss cannons sidge mode the game is over. And if you know what you are doing the maruder is one of tthe easiest enemies. Not kidding right now. Cacodeamons are far more dangerous than he is. If you get hit by their melee or thair 3 ball attack its game over meanwhile the maruder is just ssg into balist into ssg reapeat untill dead. Just stay long range untill he charges at you.

[@andrewmcnally5013]

@@klo45pl alone Mauraders are fine late game after you learn what to do. A couple of Gauss shots to the face works rather nicely, but combined with two Cacaodemons, some Possessed and his wolf companion or other things in the Seraph Arenas (or whatever they're called) and they're a nightmare. And I'm also a very traditional FPS player. I spent a majority of my time with the HMG/Heavy Cannon and Combat Shotgun, so saying that "X weapon is OP" really doesn't sway my opinion. DOOM: Eternal was an overload of items and abilities to keep track of, and unbalanced because of the player being FORCED to use them all or die, along with the Extra Lives system. DOOM 2016, LET ME pick my playstyle, rather than dictate it and THAT is the core of why 2016 is better than Eternal.

[@klo45pl]

@@andrewmcnally5013 yeah no. If you want to beat eternal with just cannon and shotgun you can. Its harder true but you can i have seen it done. And the same was true for doom 2016. Your playstyle of it makes the game harder than if u use the best weapons and that is why i like eternal much more. Both games can be played with the weapons you like (granted due to its desing in eternal you gonna have to chainsaw more) but if you want to push yourself to be good at them in 2016 that means just sudge mode all the way but in eternal that means using the right weapons agains the right targets. Also the maruder only spawns its dog if you shoot at its shield.

[@andrewmcnally5013]

@@klo45pl I did use more than just those two, but they were my primary way of playing. Weapon balance is also the last of my concerns when, again, I am literally forced into a particular playstyle of using literally everything in combination closer to a rhythm game, rather than an acrade inspired FPS. The overabundance of ENEMIES, their damage and the player's reliance on using all abilities in a set pattern are my biggest set of problems with the game. And Mauraders literally going against everything that you have learn to play the game, while being immune to the weapons specifically designed to deal with that type of enemy.

[@klo45pl]

@@andrewmcnally5013 well than its a prefernece thing. I feel much more badass mastering all the weapons and using them to their fullest than just using 2-3 guns the whole game. Regarding the maruder. I never got that "he goes against all you have learned" opinion. Doom to me at least is about learning the arena (still true in regards to maruder) dodging attacks (also true) using the right weapon for the right deamon (still true) running away to replenish supplies on small deamons (yeah he does not change that) and striking at right times ( his window is small true but it there and he is not the only one that has a window) and he is only immune to the crucible and the ice bomb and if he wasnt he would be a joke not a threat. He can block the bfg but its honestly a waste on him even if you do 1 shot him with it. Soo in the end cuz i dont think i will convince you and i know you wont convince me i can agree to a degree that eternal is much harder to play if you dont play by its rules and it demands more from you. Its a sort of dark souls of shooters. And i can definitly see why you like it less to the more classic like gameplay of 2016 but just saying "it demands more therefore its clearly 100% worse" makes no sense to me. Man i wish i had more such debates on the internet good day to you 😉

[@fg6186]

I like these for listening in the Background. I probably would listen to everything with Yathzees voice in it but I really start to like this. But I think they are better when listened to at 1.25 speed. Otherwise it gets a bit slow.

[@WoahItsCrazyMike]

I loved both, but did prefer eternal. both had pro's and cons, but the tipping point in favor of eternal for me was (and nobody talks about this, probably because i might be the only one that cares) how the secrets were handled in the level design. doom 2016 had parts in some levels where you'd go through a door, and it would seal behind you and you couldn't back track at all, a lot of times that'd happen when i was looking for a path to get to a secret i knew was nearby, thinking that a path to the secret might be up ahead because i couldn't find one in the immediate area. the amount of time i've wasted in doom 2016 because of this problem is longer than every cutscene in doom eternal combined 10 times over, and was generally very annoying when it happened. in eternal, a door never seals behind you (to my memory at least) however, there are some times where you drop down and can't go back up, but that's ok because as soon as you finish the last encounter for a level, and just need to walk through the exit, you're given the ability to fast travel to previous points on the map. it made finding secrets (a pretty big part of these games that doesn't ever really get brought up) a lot more fun, and effectively removed the only part of doom 2016 that i hated.

[@tentringer4065]

M'colleague. Is that a nod to Fry and Laurie?

[@7hi5on35]

American argument: More is better. English argument: Moderation and balance.

[@whateverkat8122]

7hi5 on3 Americans speak English lol.

[@tangoplays2547]

A stereotype based on zero fact.

[@Watcher-hh4mu]

The "more" -argument does disservice to Eternal, which seems to have actual gameplay mechanics this time around as opposed to just watching glory kill animations one after another in 2016.

[@7hi5on35]

@@whateverkat8122 Yahtzee is from England, so he's English. Jack is from the US, so he's American. Thinking this is a point of contention is like being mad about people not calling Yanks 'United-Statsers'' despite the fact that 'America' is a set of Continents as opposed to the Republic of States, it is...

[@whateverkat8122]

7hi5 on3 Ik. I was kidding lmao.

[@chronicbrightside8757]

Wait, who won? Don't they usually end with an acknowledgement of who made the better case? (note: I may have missed it - there was an ad-bomb about five seconds before the end of the video)

[@technimechanical]

iown both doom 2016 and eternal... BUT i have not finished doom 2016 yet due to boredom! but playing through eternal im loving every second im playing just enjoying it so much more... although i do miss the classic levels from doom 2016 i would have loved if they brought that back for eternal!

[@dansbigfanguitarist]

To summarize the games appeal: DOOM 2016: a carefree, gory demon killing experience that offers more aggressive realistic gameplay, and offers an unearned power fantasy and general basic FPS mechanics. Straightforward, simple and fun, and offers one of the best OST’s of all time along with introducing a refreshing, but repetitive elements of combat loop (demon combos are unique until the last few levels of the game, to be fair) DOOM Eternal: an intense, adrenaline filled experience that offered tons of new mechanics, visuals and classic video game tone that ignores realism for an all out assault on your eyeballs, in a fun way. Easily replayable, rewards the strategic, thoughtful player and offers an earned, adrenaline filled power fantasy that cant be matched by any other FPS experience.

[@zacknichols8013]

Amen!

[@prichard6836]

you didn't talk about any of the defects of doom eternal, so you aren't being fair, contrarely to what you say unfortunate

[@sepehrnaderi9596]

Thank you! I'm getting tired of everyone's "we are 100% right and you're dumb for not agreeing with me" attitude I personally found Doom2016's gameplay rather boring (especially towards the end) but I literally can't stop playing Eternal...doing Nightmare runs to prepare for ultra-nightmare. Now if someone enjoyed 2016 more good for them but saying eternal is objectively bad? rather ignorant

[@dansbigfanguitarist]

Snaek defects? I’ve played the game 20+ times and it honestly fixes everything boring or repetitive from DOOM 2016 in my eyes. I was as kind to both games as I can possibly be, with the only criticism of either game being DOOM 2016’s lack of creativity down the stretch, which was directly commented on by Hugo Martin himself as an actual problem they faced in designing the games environments and enemies. Neither games really have any “defects” when it comes to gameplay and style, which was the main course of these games. Story and extras aside, if you look at Environments, combat, platforming, mechanics, weapon design and enemy design, both of these games are masterclass arena shooters perfectly designed based on the limitations each game has. If you’re referring to the “marauder” as being a defect, 2 words, git Gud. Any decent player can delete him consistently in less than 10-15 seconds, you just have to learn how to keep him at mid-long range WHILE MOVING. Every enemy has learnable and predictable aggro and weakness that you can exploit. Don’t like the tutorials? You can turn them off. Don’t like the story or cutscenes? You can skip it all. Don’t like how hard the game is? Decrease the difficulty to easy and kill everything with the super shotgun. If you’re referring to any other “defects” please, enlightenment me on anything that the game presents that is contrary to the games design as a whole, because both of these games were designed so that the combat system, movement mechanics and even environments perfectly compliment their similar, but also different tones and styles of gameplay. Nothing DOOM Eternal changes is contrary to the different tone and style of gameplay it intends to create, it just makes it a very different experience altogether. The marauder is just like every enemy in eternal, he requires a unique reaction from the player in order to kill him as fast as possible. The platforming sections work perfectly for spacing out the intense combat, which is more mentally straining that 2016, making them necessary to prepare you for the bigger, more vertical arenas to come, while also giving you a mental break from the intensity the game delivers. Both games perfectly achieve what they wanted to in terms of tone, gameplay and immersion in their own unique ways. If you see any of the above mentioned common criticisms as game “defects” it’s because you’re a DOOM 2016 fanboy who didn’t get DOOM 2016 2.0, which thank God didn’t happen. Thank God they don’t go the call of duty route and just spew forth the same game Over and over. They completely reimagined an incredible, but not so replayable game and made it objectively better in most ways. So considering how much I love DOOM Eternal, I’m pretty confident that my original comment was very fair to DOOM 2016, considering I could have pointed out all the ways DOOM Eternal is, objectively, a better game (better enemy design, destructible demons, better nightmare difficulty, better weapon mods, better combat loop that you can actually master, more rewarding earned power fantasy etc.) and instead, all I did was point out the most glaring flaw in the game that keeps it from even being fun to replay more than once, In my humble opinion. Facts are, aside from the recent Update 1 addition of Denuvo, DOOM eternal is one of the greatest single player FPS’s of all time, at least if you enjoy an experience that isn’t the same regurgitated experience Over and over. Every game should strive to be as different from its prequel as DOOM Eternal so that we, the consumer, arent paying $60 for the same game over and over again. I played 2016 3 times in 4 years because it wasn’t really all that much fun for me after the first playthrough because it doesn’t challenge the player at all. There are tunes that give you infinite ammo, the ammo limits basically don’t exist. The combat loop is boring because there’s nothing to think about, nothing to challenge you, nothing to incentivize another playthrough besides pure bloodlust of killing demons, which for me ran out after the first playthrough. These are video games, not demon killing simulators, we should want more from our than just murder simulators, even if that can be fun at times. I’ve playered DOOM Eternal 20+ times, still counting, and im still looking forward to every playthrough of the game. I loved 2016 mostly for the music, but I loved Eternal for the music AND the gameplay loop. It’s pretty clear to me that neither game has any real “defects” because both games so clearly understood what they were designed to be and that’s why they were so well received. But 2016 was geared towards mainstream fans, it wasn’t made to be hard, it was made to get as many people involved as possible. And like I originally said, the only “defect” I pointed out about 2016 was the same thing Hugo, the creative director of the game, Pointed out about the game. A clear disclaimer that DOOM 2016 could be repetitive. DOOM eternal was made to challenge you, and I have yet to see any reasonable criticism of this game that points out real flaws in the game, flaws that actually contradict what the game is, which is a Strategic, high octane arena shooter. I emphasize “Strategic” because every criticism of the marauder and video reviews that criticizes the marauder seems to fundamentally misunderstand how to play this game and how to strategize and use the mechanics of this game properly. Everything is exactly as it should be, and makes it one of the most well balanced, rewarding video games I’ve ever played. Nothing is too hard, at least if you use your big brain and learn how to play it the right way. Otherwise you are probably playing the wrong way, and I’ve seen the same sluggish, lazy gameplay from too many detractors to think otherwise. I play this game on console, and I didn’t even die in this game until I played on nightmare, and I’m a very average FPS player.

[@dansbigfanguitarist]

sepehr naderi yeah, I understand why people don’t like Eternal, but to say it’s a bad game or has “defects” or “major flaws” is absurd. This is one of the most well balanced games I’ve ever played, and is probably the first game I’ve had the most fun on when playing on the hardest difficulty. Usually I avoid the toughest challenge a game has, but I didn’t die at all on any difficulty until nightmare, so I had to try it. I personally think it’s a blessing that a game dev finally took a prequel and totally revamped the game to make it unique and familiar. It’s not like call of duty, where you just get the same game over and over. I get why people sometimes want a brainless demon murder simulator, but just because DOOM eternal is drastically different and more challenging doesn’t mean it’s a worse game. I respect both games personally and think they are both masterclass video games.

[@matthewharken4604]

2016 was way more Doom it was what I wanted from the title.

[@saaaaaaaaalt838]

I'm someone who actually prefers Doom eternal. A lot. In terms of flat out enjoyment, I got a hell of a lot more out of doom eternal than I did 2016. The previous installment I got tired of it 2 playthroughs after buying it before I got bored. Eternal however I've done at least double that and have completed an ultra nightmare run which I never would've considered trying for 2016. I'll admit, the game probably gets more fun, the higher the skill level but that shouldn't discount the new additions as pointless. Every resource you have minus the super weapons is a strategic choice and that makes for gameplay where you're in control the whole time. Once you're in the rhythm, doom eternal makes you feel far more badass than 2016 ever could. If you want the 2016 experience, turn down the difficulty and unbind half the buttons. I agree with the first point that 2016 had the bigger impact but I really can't agree with anything else. My other point in 2016's favour is the actual tone of the game is one I prefer which is more subjective than anything I've said so far.

[@kerry7932]

Fun and illuminating debates. Please continue. Finally someone discussing the really important questions of our time.

[@wanderingursa8184]

Oh, come on Yahtzee... you should just have brought up the purple goo of Doom Eternal, instant-win.

[@CurtyTails]

Am i the only one who didnt mind the purple goo-the only time i was a bit miffed was in the city section where i remember you had to open the gate surrounded by tenctacles and that part that was in front of the door...just because of the flying demons and the fast sword fuckers that kept coming at me. Only time i was annoyed but it was so short i didnt mind in the grand scheme of things. The only part i cried foul was the Khan Makyr-but every other moment had me smiling and nonstop ecstasy from fun-which is rare-usually there is one moment that has me just be like...this is ok-nope-not one had me stop similing-no game is perfect so doom eternal for me is as close to perfect as you can get for an action shooter

[@CurtyTails]

@Rishi Rajan usually they dont throw many enemies while you are in goo-just tentacles besides the 1 scenario i mentioned and maybe 1 or 2 other scenarios

[@locomotivefaox]

11:19 Meet the sniper

[@Wbfuhn]

Both games are fun and work in their own way. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. D16 is like an upgrade to Brutal Doom while DE feels like an expansion with new mechanics and features. DE has most cut scenes skippable based on how long the cutscene is. Needs an auto skip switch like Diablo 3. (I haven't found it for DE) D16 has an easy way to get specific glory kills. DE is random at times, I can't move around a demon and explore how many glory kills there are. I like the dash, fire/ice grenade, flame belch, chainsaw change (3 with refill vs 7) cheats for replaying levels, textures and skins apply to the campaign now, a light saber (don't lie you thought it too), a super punch that has an area effect, the grappling is creative. Snapmap. I really wanted snap map with the new content but I guess that's not happening.

[@KnordicKnight]

I am really enjoying these and can't wait for more! I would prefer that the actual opinion isn't stated at the beginning though, it can be obvious based on the arguments but I think as the show progresses not knowing if you're personally for or against would be more enjoyable.