Is Mario a Better Character Than Sonic? | Slightly Civil War

[@theescapist]

Podcast - soundcloud.com/user-944993929/is-mario-a-better-character-than-sonic OR find it on Spotify, iTunes and Stitcher. Leave a review if you like it! Watch today's episode on whether or not backwards compatibility is necessary for consoles - www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/is-backwards-compatibility-really-necessary-for-consoles-slightly-civil-war/

[@bullzai018]

9:08 Sonic is also a Freedom Fighter. Though this is equally true for Mario. Not sure how Jack was helping his argument, by calling Mario that.

[@williamcollings7214]

Can we get the podcast in video form on youtube as well?

[@raimyonlinewarrior236]

Btw bowser turned toads into blocks that we destroyed as Mario? Kinda surprised that it wasn’t used in the argument. Mario murdered them!!!!

[@noahwolton7662]

Slightly Civil War should get a moderator, someone to say point to yahtzee after a specific argument

[@fuzzyheathen2095]

Might i reccomend a concept? Debate on if the western developed Silent Hill games can stand up to the first 4. That ought to be popcorn worthy lol.

[@kal6957]

”Were going to scale things down a bit and do a fun episode” 5 minutes later... ”Sonic is the enemy of the working class”

[@DemocaAcid]

lmao

[@timy9197]

I feel like him accusing Sonic of being a terrorist was even harsher lol

[@khalbrando9931]

😂😂😂

[@rory8182]

10 minutes later... Furries

[@MrPerfect2000Z]

@@timy9197 Not really...he's been accused of being a terrorist in his own games lol

[@edzo29]

-"Much like all Sonic talk, this has gone to very weird places." -And that's as good an argument for Mario as any. I can't argue with this. Holy crap.

[@Edwin20er]

@@hanyoukimura Were you looking for Deviating, or Devastating,? both seem equally apt.

[@Rusty_Spy]

This is the same conversation that imagines peach being in a sexual relationship with a giant dragon tortoise. And coming from the save fanbase that became really obsessed with portraying Bowser as a sexy woman. The Mario isn't as innocent as they like to think they are

[@tuseroni6085]

@@Rusty_Spy mario rule 34 is tame compared to the sonic fanbase.

[@Gabriel-zy7ee]

@@Rusty_Spy That is true there are some weird fans when it comes to Mario but it's not as messed up as the Sonic fanart.

[@sethlangston181]

Who here believes that if the debate went on any longer, it would've eventually led up to Hitler?

[@Seestaar]

I'm surprised that Yahtzee and Jack went an entire 12 and a half minute video talking about Mario's character and NOT mentioning how he tends to literally bail on his helper dinosaur if it's convenient for him

[@azzzanadra]

That is the player's work, not mario, you are the bastard!

[@Ming1975]

Mario being a "better" character has nothing to do with him being a good guy. It is establish that Mario is a bully to his brother and kinda of a dick while Sonic needs fan base to add to his character like that "Sonic for hire" series (good stuff).

[@rogercameron6912]

Same reason Miyamoto was vehemently against Yoshi going into castles and ghost houses while later games sport Yoshi in safe closed-bottom segments or contained 3D sandboxes - the idea is that Mario doesn't canonically pull such twisted maneuvers on his friend. ...no qualms about smacking his dinosaur compatriot upside the head to get him to eat, but even that's been retconned into pointing as seen in the later CG renders.

[@seandwalsh3]

MingTuck Chung Mario doesn’t bully his brother.

[@IronicHavoc]

Yoshis reincarnate into their eggs whenever they die. They know they're expendable. That's also why every generic incarnation of a green Yoshi is just referred to as Yoshi. They're all the same Yoshi.

[@justinrolls9526]

Actually, Sonic's speed IS natural. His shoes are just modified to be able to withstand mach speeds without disintegrating.

[@chrissullivan6403]

Yahtz is referring to the original manual that states “power sneakers that give him super speed.”

[@PhantomFearYT]

@@chrissullivan6403 SEGA of America couldn't be bothered to translate the Japanese manual for the release of Sonic 1. So they made up some random garbage on the spot. This is common knowledge in the fan base, the American versions of the manuals and stories for the first few Sonic games are not cannon.

[@chrissullivan6403]

Phantom Fear Yeah I know, but that’s what Yhatz was referring to and he’s not taking this debate seriously whatsoever so it’s kinda pointless to point out his evidence was retconned/mistranslated.

[@fusionspace175]

@@PhantomFearYT I was born in a world where a brown hedgehog exploded Robotniks chaos machine and cobalt waves turned him blue, and that's the world I'll die in.

[@richnolan2744]

@@fusionspace175 Tell him brother.

[@EllieBerryPie]

Oh my god, listen to the podcast. It's on Spotify. Yahtzee has the best fan theory for how all the Mario games work

[@prish98]

And in Yahtzee’s favor: Miyamoto has confirmed SMB3 is a play.

[@gregorycomey]

They have a podcast?!

[@AXLEGREASEframeset]

DAMN YOU, NOW I HAVE TO LISTEN TO IT.

[@lpsp442]

It's actually pretty good, better than I would have expected. It's essentially the Zelda interpretation, many Links and Zeldas etc. with a suitably wry pop-cultural media twist for a light-heighted series. Notice how almost all Mario games present themselves as a stage show - a pop up picture book - a reality tv show - a media spectacle.

[@wake-archus]

I love how Yahtzee’s only argument seems to be speculative at best and unrelated at worst. Where as Jack’s argument actually has a point to make.

[@loginname8374]

Yahtzee clearly doesn't believe his own words and is struggling to come up with points. Heck he has complained about Mario being a bland character with no personality who is outshined by his dinosaur and brother.

[@ceoofceos5219]

They didn’t delve into other Sonic games that would have really helped the Sonic side argument. In Sonic Unleashed, Sonic literally spends the entire game trying to help one dude get his memory back

[@lnsflare1]

And putting the world back together after Eggman cracked it like some round, crackable thing whose name escapes me at the moment, terrorizing multiple human societes in the process until Sonic fixes it.

[@TheReZisTLust]

@@lnsflare1flat taco shell i think is what your thinking of

[@TheOriginalKZero]

And then there were good Sonic games too! Like Sonic Adventure 2.

[@slothfulcobra]

There was actually a weird story in Sonic Adventure 1 that was from the perspective of one of the animals imprisoned in a robot going rogue to save their fellow animals by killing the robot they inhabit. It was interesting. This is essentially a debate of "is a distinctive character better than a blank slate regardless of how weird or bad the distinctions get?"

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

Sonic is fighting for nature against the encroachment of unrestrained industry. Mario is seeking to prop up a monarchy. Working class hero my ass.

[@drdca8263]

Hey, if my choices are the current existing kingdom or an invading kingdom (Bowser is the koopa King, right?), without anything else to motivate the decision otherwise, I think I’ll stick with the current kingdom. If everyone thought otherwise, then presumably kingdoms would be constantly invading each other, and that doesn’t sound pleasant.

[@YingofDarkness]

@@drdca8263 This isn't even mentioning how that invading Kingdom often has its country capital buried in lava

[@charlesdemarest1171]

@@YingofDarkness Nor how Bowser turned all of the "people" into blocks and bricks.

[@bremensims6086]

They said that nearish the end

[@williancruz9657]

@@drdca8263 I mean yeah kingdoms ARE always invading each other lol

[@paradoxical998]

I think it's funny that Yahtzee was stick with Mario. Seeing as he has gone on record saying that Mario has no character. I believe that it was his Luigi's Mansion review, that or the second one.

[@khanhnguyen-tt3ff]

Lol u think he be on sonic side?

[@SamWeltzin]

They were assigned sides to argue for. Doesn't necessarily reflect their real opinions.

[@TheChaoscard]

In the podcast, he also makes it clear that Luigi is the stronger character than Mario.

[@zothOne]

Having no character might be better than having Sonic's character. Besides Mario's blandness makes him perfect to introduce in every imaginable type of game, whilst something like Sonic Golf, Sonic Kart or Sonic Party does not seem to work nearly as well.

[@chrisjones5949]

The things he's had to say about Sonic don't exactly sound like sunshine, lollipops & rainbows either. He's advocated for Sonic to be taken out behind the barn and shot, then stuffed, mounted, and repurposed as a litter-picker. I think Mario still comes out ahead on that score...

[@synthjorisendedraak]

"Jack the Hedgehog" seems a particularly unfortunate one to google...

[@lpsp442]

"Packard the Hedgehog" meanwhile carries a surreal, stock working man vibe

[@Lord_Numpty]

'Cameron the Hedgehog'. I feel some odd combination of disdainful and insulted.

[@confusedmatthew3736]

Sonic is a one trick pony whereas Mario has so many tricks he grew into a horse, eventually died and is now constantly beaten for cash by Nintendo.

[@Owen_005]

The “plumber” part of Mario does not contribute to his character whatsoever

[@BenCol]

Yeah, that was really to give some context as to why he was in a sewer in the ‘Mario Bros.’ arcade game. It stopped being relevant after 1983. But NOA decided to run with it, along with the whole Brooklyn angle. And then DiC and whoever made the film ran even further with it because it was all they had.

[@AVGNROCKS1996]

I mean he was shown fixing pipes in 3D World and is refered to as “plumber boy” by bowser multiple times.

[@gunblade250]

He spends a lot of time in pipes. Just saying.

[@Superschlecht]

Pah, so representation for the working class is no big deal? :

[@WakoDoodle]

Especially since in the donkey kong days he was actually a carpenter. I even have a really old boardgame based on the game, it called him a carpenter. :D

[@TheMedicatedArtist]

Luigi, Peach, and Bowser all have more personality than Mario ever will.

[@printthelegends]

It took a while for those three to develop the personalities we know and love today, though, and Mario himself was always meant to be kind of a blank slate.

[@Some_Cat_]

Mario is the Ryu of the mushroom kingdom.

[@azzzanadra]

not peach, she is even more bankrupt in personality than mario.

[@DeadUnicornClub]

Yahtzee: Jack Pack-ard Jack: Jack Pack-erd Who to believe?

[@Andri474]

Why not both? :))

[@OfficialJab]

I dunno but they're all lucky that Luigi wasn't part of the squareoff.

[@NerdyNooki]

Especially for Luigi. He's a coward, but he'll go through with any dire task if it means saving the ones he loves, not just Peach. He saves everyone he could even if it doesn't concern him. He writes about wanting to impress his bigger brother because he looks up to him even if he gets jealous. He's also a huge goofball I got all this from Luigi's Mansion series, Paper Mario series and Mario & Luigi series

[@buddyboris23]

Counterpoint on the Sonic Wierdness: Bowsette and the princess crown meme. Booette, Chain Chomp-ette

[@Isukatsmsh]

Exactly. Every fanbase has its weird side, Sonic's is just way more well-known.

[@Vedrlaufnir]

@@Isukatsmsh It's not that it's more well known; we got all the sonic OCs, sanic, and lots of weird shit while Mario has bowsette and that's it... honestly Sonic's shit is bigger in quantity.

[@shiknobi2055]

"That is a correct example", "Yes". Lmao, didn't knew the depth one could delve into with these characters, so much research done (do remember to wash your eyes).

[@ewills]

What has been seen, can not

[@BlazeMakesGames]

I feel like it isn't a handicap to disregard Sonic's games. The fact that sonic is still around despite his games sucking ass for years and years, is a testament to his character. If it wasn't for the strength of his character, he probably wouldn't still be around. Hell, I'd argue that Sonic's character is the only reason he's survived this long, good games or bad.

[@AleT118]

If anything, Mario has had a load of missteps during his SNES/CDI days at around the same age that Sonic had his.

[@mdstevens0612]

Like, here's my thing; Sonic hasn't had more bad games than most franchises. As purely bad, there's only 06, Boom and Unleashed, and Unleashed is only bad because the really really good half is handicapped by the half trying to emulate Twilight Princess's success. The rest vary from mediocre to pretty great. But it's funny to shit on Sonic and thus, we must dunk for the memes. Sonic's biggest downfall is that his misfires are much higher profile. Unlike Link, Sonic's biggest failures aren't trapped on the CDI.

[@BigZult]

“Mario is the hero of the story (Maybe)” Isn’t this just referring to the fact that Luigi is also a playable character?

[@seandwalsh3]

I think it’s referring to the fact that Mario will only be the hero if the player manages to get to the end of the game and save the Princess.

[@AVGNROCKS1996]

In the Archie series, Sonic does try to reestablish a monarchy run by his girlfriends father after toppling Robotnik, so I guess they’re both bootlicking fascists. The only true revolutionary is Crash, who serves no master.

[@TheOriginalKZero]

Ehhh the Archie comics got way more complex than defend/hate the monarchy. Dude was branded a traitor a time or five for example and with varying degrees of accuracy.

[@ebievierodriguez3436]

DUDE YOU JUST EARNED A SUBSCRIBER

[@TheChaoscard]

Best comment ever!

[@Rocketboy1313]

Monarchists are not the same as fascists. A big component of Fascism is machismo (read as Misogyny), so the establishment of princesses runs rather counter to that.

[@masterYoshimistsu]

They missed one of the most damming arguments against Mario: in Donkey Kong when he first appeared it was said that he owned DK and mistreated him. So Mario is an animal abuser!

[@radiantfalcongamevision1113]

wasn't even DK, that was Cranky Kong; as the current DK is Cranky Kong's descendant

[@seandwalsh3]

Technically no. Miyamoto said in an interview that DK was Mario’s pet, but the actual game does nothing to indicate that, and there’s certainly nothing indicating that Mario mistreated DK/was an animal abuser.

[@masterYoshimistsu]

@@seandwalsh3 Except in Donkey Kong Jr., DK is trapped in Mario’s cage and the artwork for the game has Mario with a whip. So if DK was Mario’s pet, he took him away from his son DK Jr. and had him in a cage controlled by a whip. That sounds like animal abuser.

[@Gabriel-zy7ee]

@@masterYoshimistsu explain Sonic trapping a wild Orca for no darn reason in a smaller pool than Seaworlds in Sonic 06

[@masterYoshimistsu]

@@Gabriel-zy7ee Easy, it’s Sonic 06. That game had everything in it, including beastiality a la Howard The Duck.

[@but_in_space_though2919]

Today's podcast was 🔥. Absolutely loved it. I'm just sad Jack and Yahtz didn't bring up Sonic and The Black Knight when talking about Sonic's characterization. Since that game had him straight up say he doesn't mind being a villain sometimes.

[@PirateMacDougall]

His Sonic Adventure 1 theme "It Doesn't Matter" is also the closest he's ever had to a true theme song and it pretty clearly states he doesn't always have a clear view of right and wrong but that doesn't matter to him because his personal sense of justice is more important to him. I'd say this is a pretty consistent part of his characterization, I just wish it was shown more often.

[@bullzai018]

As the embodiment or incarnation of Chaos in his universe. Sonic being truly neutral when it comes to right wrong would make sense. It's only due to his upbringing, by learning from positive influences and good examples. That Sonic is the character that he is. If Sonic had been brought up by Robotnik. He could've easily been like Shadow. I don't think he could ever be Anti-hero. Not without some serious circumstances taking place.

[@strubberyg7451]

@@bullzai018 Being the embodiment of chaos will make his alignment chaotic, but not neutral in terms of right or wrong. He follows his own sense of justice, but he follows justice. The closest to not good his attitude brings him to is disregarding others' judgement, and that's sometime an actual plot point (Sonic Lost World come to mind...)

[@lnsflare1]

To be fair, he was talking about how he would be considered a villain for overthrowing a corrupt King Arthur. Though, to be even more fair, his actual end goal in that game ended up being to fight in the service of the kingdom's inevitable destruction because he found eternal stagnation to be even worse. Seriously Sega, remake and sequelize the Storybook series with either normal Sonic gameplay/controls, or hand it over to someone like Platinum or Nihon Falcom to make it into a full blown Character Action/Action RPG series.

[@E1craZ4life]

I was expecting Jack to discuss Bowser's character after Yahtzee discussed Robotnik's character.

[@megaxx5868]

That would have made Mario look better I mean he's rescuing a princess from... Err... Being non consensually snuggled by a giant turtle dragon, if you catch my drift What other reason would Bowser have to kidnap Peach so often you tell me

[@Hillthugsta]

@@megaxx5868 That Peach is not so secretly into that shit? I mean Browser has a ton of kids and the only female Bowser is seen interacting with is Peach.

[@PhoenixNorthstar]

@@Hillthugsta well seven of the eight kids are confirmed to be adopted, but Bowser Junior is actually his biological son, and he consistently calls her "Mama Peach" and she doesn't deny or even question the possibility that she and Bowser have a son (even if Bowser himself puts that into question).

[@rogercameron6912]

Ugh, she was just stunned by the accusation. And probably the mental imagery. Trolling or not, that point is as inane and Family Guy-tier as "Mario does drugs" jokes or "Everyone's Dead" theories.

[@seandwalsh3]

PhoenixNorthstar the Koopalings are not “confirmed to be adopted”, they’re just his minions. If they were adopted they’d still be his kids.

[@bird3713]

We went from “argue about what’s in the manual” to “Mario oppresses underprivileged minorities and Sonic is a sex-positive role model”

[@Pr0jectFM]

I like how these arguments are entirely based in headcannon.

[@njalsand133]

Mario has little personality, Luigi on the other hand

[@alaskanreaper129]

I’ve enjoyed playing more of Mario’s games to be honest, but I think that overall Sonic is just a better character. I may not be an expert on Sonic lore but in terms of relatability and interest then Sonic is just a better character out of the two of them. Sonic has an edge to him, he can be a big of a show off and has a lot of attitude to throw around but he cares about the well being of his friends and just others in general. Mario is just that typical bland good guy who knows nothing but “good and bad”. Mario is the more family friendly character and since he is such a blank slate then everyone can just grapple to him and most of his games. You can tell Sonic is more than just a friendly mascot that is meant to smile and look good in comparison to his arch nemesis. His designs throughout the years have personality to them. His iconic smirk and the way he sticks his finger out speaks volumes to who he is. It’s like Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. Mickey Mouse may be family friendly and yea he’s more iconic in a way but Bugs Bunny just has that wit and charm to him that makes him more entertaining to watch.

[@EllieBerryPie]

To paraphrase Hamilton: Sonic has charchteristics, Mario has none.

[@CDL_Gaming]

*Characteristics

[@jordanloux3883]

Yes, but Mario has consistency. Sonic is always whatever is considered cool at the time he's made, and Mario always has the same gameplay style, whether in 2D or 3D. You can always pick up a mario game and (mostly, looking at you Hotel Mario) know what you're getting. With Sonic it's a gamble.

[@Xfushion2]

But what good having characteristic do if all of them make you cringe? Quality of games aside Sonic is straight unlikable.

[@goff256]

@@Xfushion2 And Mario is a straight up murderer. So I don't see how he's that much better.

[@badmanjones179]

why are you paraphrasing hamilton its not like it has special credibility or anything

[@Mas-cm6cy]

Luigi and mario love each other. They both care about each other. Look at the mario and Luigi games. Heck even in paper mario, Luigi likes being home and dosent mind being in mario shadow

[@therandombats2579]

Mario has more games, both canon and non canon. Also, Mario can stay and swim underwater. And he from time to time teams up with his main villain to fight a greater evil.

[@jedediahhopkins6051]

I mean. Sonic technically has a personality, whereas Mario kinda just does things. But I like Mario better

[@inteligentidiot7233]

This video made me look up "my name" the hedgehog, and now I hate everything. Point to Mario.

[@exospheriaUSA]

All I can say is...at least Mario doesn't make me want to take a long cold shower when I look him up on DeviantArt.

[@necromythos7339]

I think the title should replace "character" with "person", you don't need to make someone morally right to make them a good character,in fact... Those flaws could be the very reason they're such a good character. You two were arguing about morality rather than personality or you were in the end and middle. Sorry for being so nitpicky, things like that just irk me for some reason. I still enjoyed the video!😁

[@animeartist888]

Don't apologize- you're completely right. A villain can be a good character and yet be an awful person. When they're arguing about morality and the possibility of causing furries to exist, well... that has little to nothing to do with how good they are as characters. Being that Mario is a blank slate sort, Sonic is automatically a better character.

[@PiousMoltar]

100% The Joker is a great character, for one example.

[@Sir99percent]

If you use "person", that would be an instant win for Mario: "Sonic the *Hedgehog* isn't a person, never mind better"

[@Play_Dreams]

After playing Luigi Mansion 3 and the Mario + Luigi RPGs, I feel like the Mario Bros. are super charming together. Very wholesome characters. Sonic still has more of a personality though, by design.

[@abaque24]

The sequence in Dream Team where we get to see what luigi thinks and feels and how he sees his brother, give magnitudes of more personality than sonic games XD

[@TheReZisTLust]

Tails has character as well in the adventure era, he even stands up to eggman amd eventually becomes the brains of the group

[@PALWolfOS]

As far as characters go, I really like Sonic in the Adventure games (how he deals with being framed and chased by GUN, his interactions with Knock Knock it’s Chuckles), the Storybook games which get into a more somber side of his ideology of living life to its fullest and Unleashed. I think he’s an insufferable shell of himself nowadays though, a shitty comedian that seems a lot more insincere compared to what he used to be (only really works in that Boom cartoon which is basically a fever dream diss session on Sega after a while) And as for Mario, I’ve grown to like how quickly he seems to accept things when it’s not some immediate conflict A lot of the Mario games’ general lightheartedness stems from how lighthearted Mario is - just look at how much fun he has hippity hopping all over the place, being so eager to get himself into trouble and bounce back from anything. Being framed for vandalism gets turned around into him doing his usual heroic thing. He can have a climatic fight with Bowser one day and go out for drinks later if Bowser was feeling sad and wanted his company The man doesn’t have a vengeful bone in his body, and it’s something I’ve oddly grown to appreciate more and more as I grow up Mario isn’t deep, but he resonates strongly with me

[@rebelappliance771]

*”begun the fandom wars have.”*

[@Shadethewolfy]

"Sonic's powers are all organic" Counterpoint: Chaos Emeralds.

[@officialgagethepyro5391]

Question for the debate: should ludonarrative dissonance be considered when critiquing a game, or is the concept pretentious bollocks?

[@drdca8263]

Proposal: instead of looking for it as a potential flaw, we instead look for examples where the opposite, ludonarrative consonance, is present, as something that could be exceptional and praiseworthy.

[@Pr0manStream]

From individual to individual, the importance can vary drastically. I know of people that don't give a hoot about meta-narrative, the inconsistency of story/gameplay and think that games that sacrifice mechanics or gameplay for the sake of creating a message deserve to get crucified. I know of people that throw a game out the second the ludonarrative dissonance is bigger than the suspension of disbelief they can muster, but I wouldn't go so far to say it's pretentious bollocks, for a simple reason: If your actions done in game do not reflect an existing state that is told by the story in _any way possible_ (or subsequent change thereof because of your actions) it will cause a heavy hit towards immersion, which is something that either kills or saves a game. Below is basically a bit of examples with explainations of some really interesting cases showing both sides of the argument - careful, it's a long read. But to give you a quick takeaway: It's important in the right context. Strong cases where the Ludonarrative Dissonance actually harm the experience (it's after all what is important when criticising games), it deserves a mention and subsequent slap, but if you are actively looking for it however, you could find so many cases that it would become utterly meaningless. I'd like to give out a somewhat recent and relatively simple example to follow for a game that has a bit more than a hairline fracture thanks to this (even one that Yahtz critiqued): Vampyr. You have to fight off many, and I mean *many* different enemies getting from A to B in the streets of London to the point of where you have to wonder how giving so many nameless thugs and/or monsters the slip from the mortal coil can't even remotely affect the districts' overall health. Or how plot important NPCs, hell, even normal NPCs that have no impact into the game whatsoever can seemingly manage to get through all this without ever getting into much trouble in the first place. The player has the feeling that the town basically is going to hell with how much combat there can be just traversing, yet the game's story barely ever reflects that. When the gameplay conflicts with the set elements that exist due to story than you can be taken out of any investment you had prior. I mean, it's not helped by the fact the game is more akin to an audiobook than an actual game, but I feel my point stands. For people that actively look for "any" case of ludonarrative dissonance, you can find it in 90% of games that have a story to drive the gameplay, as there will always be elements that are at odds with the story on display. If you want a _really simple_ take on the matter, look no further than Watch_Dogs: Pierce is visiting the grave of a loved one whose death basically sets up the game's story, and right after the cut scene ends, the game's context sensitive button prompts essentially ask me if I would like to climb on top of my niece's grave. On the other hand, ludonarrative dissonance can be extremely beneficial to a game and while this is not as recent nor as easy to understand, it makes for an interesting contrast: I'm talking about Spec Ops: The Line. You go into a shooter expecting to mindlessly shoot and kill stuff in rediculous ways or unbelievable scenarios, because it's what you've been getting used to. It's fine in principle: hell, everyone enjoys a good shooter from time to time, it's probably why it has become more of a "default genre" than most other genres at the time, but the devs decided to take an interesting spin to it: When the game itself mocks you in your loading screen hints to get an emotional reaction out of you for doing something abhorrently bad and with the game basically keeping score of your misdeeds by actively showing you that you just commited a warcrime that is unexcusable, it's an effective way of drawing in the player through sheer shock value alone because it is so unexpected but also relentless. Subtlety is out the window. You aren't in for the ride now because you want to see how it all culminates from a plot perspective, but because the game has hooked you in with showing you how your reactions actually connect you with the player character and how it makes the character basically unlikeable, morally bankrupt, but relatable as it's nothing but a reflection of you with a different face now. Anybody not even remotely interested in something like it, or not bothered by it in the first place will find nothing but a lackluster shooter with mediocre elements that seems to fall onto clichees more often than not. It's probably also the reason why the game got so critically panned and is often considered an underappreciated gem by the people liking it, and considered a piece of junk that is only overhyped by people in the first category. Another interesting case in that regard would be a game that has been praised across the board: Bioshock. It used the Dissonance between the gameplay and the story's twist to drop meta-commentary onto the player so they can reflect upon what they have done, as they are basically the puppet being strung along for the ride, just as the player character has been. The story stopped being about the characters themselves, but instead shifted towards the people sitting behind it. The characters in game are also absolutely consistent with their behaviour and hints are dropped at it constantly, which is why more observant people could've seen the twist coming from a mile away, even ignoring the room just a bit prior that gave an even bigger hint.

[@CxMegaMan]

You mean pudonarrative pissonance(still getting paid remember)

[@HUNbullseye]

Jack won fair and square, and didn't even mentioned: Mario movie Vs. Sonic movie.

[@TheReZisTLust]

That's unfair lol people actually tried in the sonic movie

[@Gabriel-zy7ee]

@@TheReZisTLust They should do it agian when Sonic 2 and the new Nario movie comes out.

[@castle9165]

Mario: a modest working man A hopeless romantic Iconic Relatable Has flaws like his competitive nature with Luigi outside of the main games But when it comes to saving each other or saving the day they are happy to cooperate. Sonic: Is cool Is just good in general Is a mentor Might be either encouraging a madman to be worse or be actually being horrible

[@JonathanRodd]

Yahtzee how do you know Peach hasn't put out in all these years? I mean obviously they aren't going to show it in the games. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen ;)

[@Mernom]

He's not a father yet.

[@nikxneon6615]

Do you deny the existence of birth control?

[@abdul-rahimdahman3300]

He was rejected in Mario Odyssey :)

[@PaintedBB]

They're staying in separate hotel rooms in Luigi's Mansion 3. And Mario's room is a mess of pizza boxes (as through he's not coping well and eating as a outlet...hmmm...) Maybe they're going through a rough patch in their relationship.

[@rogercameron6912]

We don't. Just like we don't see the plumbers' parents or any bonding moments between any of these characters. Which, hey, I get it, keep the tone safe and all, but geez, show us a little Luigi and Daisy to back up those massive golden statues of the basically-couple (including one of them as babies, disturbingly). Sonic and Rouge could have been in a healthy dating relationship and then split because of her job's confidentiality and his desire for free time, for all we know.

[@tynorstrom2761]

I love how at the end there they were both clearly struggling to hold it together long enough to finish the episode and not just laugh through the end.

[@Rezic]

I was so hoping Yahtzee would be team Sonic.

[@nickburton9366]

"A hedgehog can never be buggered at all"👍 gotta love pratchett references

[@nightcatarts]

Gotta agree that the little animals were definitely having a good time in their big mech suits. I'd go as far as to say that Sonic knows the robotic animals could potentially challenge his speed, & thus he is smashing them up in order to protect his fragile ego. Mario is a bit.. hollow though, as a personality, but I think that's by design. He's the videogame equivalent of Bella from Twilight; a totally uninteresting blank slate that the player can glue themselves onto in order to become more vested in the character's struggle. Thankfully though, he's not all mopey about it.

[@Gabriel-zy7ee]

I like the theory it fits Sonics character.

[@duby3292]

I suppose Sonic has more to his character. But Mario at least sounds like a great guy to hang around

[@traviscunningham7062]

@Adrian Scott Luigi’s Mansion 3 tho.

[@dr2boomer]

My laughter was deafening from the picture of Yahtzee considering the butt plug tail.

[@Stunade_]

I love how smug the caricatures are able to look when Yahtz and Jack make their points!

[@Freakenfishzilla]

8:13 thanks for ruining my childhood with the realisation that Mario's just a simp. Great.

[@DaDMonDCB]

To be fair, Bowser's been trying to kill Mario since diaper days, and with Bowser taking over the Kingdom(s) Mario will always have to beat him up. Being friends with the regent that opposes Bowser just helps matters. And let's be honest; I don't see Peach going so long without giving Mario some.... *cake*.

[@rogercameron6912]

Delightfully twisted arguments on both sides. But let's-a go fast and straight to the point: If you want to count the RPG's (particularly SMRPG), Mario does have a sense of pride in his life-threatening sacrifice in answering a warrior's call while still trying to remain humble and fostering to all. Without the RPG's, you still have a "Man of the World"-trope character that respects many cultures and viewpoints while being unafraid of how he's perceived to simply spread joy and goodwill. ...when he's not the center of massacre, but such is a war to preserve peace in the face of a totalitarian lizard that can't even be evil correctly since Bowser is also a Star Child. That doesn't stop Bowser from being so selfish that he'd risk the entire Universe for his own ends -- Mario's hands are tied as far as casualties go (and Rosalina understood this, too). The fear of losing his special ones forever at any given moment has likely stunted him from being able to form healthy and equal relationships with his love interest and his brother. Sure we see glimpses of what looks like such on the surface, but Peach and Luigi remain on-guard and helpless, indicating otherwise. Mario is a lightly-flawed hero, brother, and friend, but these flaws keep him from being as plastic on the inside as Nintendo's "New" CG renders. Sonic's impatience likely stems from his dealings with others -- whether they're incessantly squeaky and annoying sentient animals or apathetic-to-incompetent-to-evil humans. And the occasional Hot Topic-brand Demigod. Nevertheless, he too attempts to get along with his friends as much as possible and foster additional resilient heroes (which is more than can be said for the state of the Toads, oy vey). For the record, the equally-orphaned Tails doesn't even seem to know the location of his parents per Tails' Adventure. We've at least seen the Mario Bros.' parents' hands, so, I guess they're living in a Mushroom Retirement House, somewhere. Hopefully the brothers visit them from time to time. Sonic is free to keep friends at a length that's comfortable to him (important in the case of someone like Amy Rose), so he's not to be faulted there. Tails grew in capability through the Sonic Adventure games, but Sonic does get protective and lapses back into "older brother" mode as of late. For all of Sonic's self-assurance, he treats Eggman as irredeemable without the stones to do away with him accordingly. At least Mario and Peach have the decency to invite Bowser and his followers to diplomatic go-kart races and sporting events in the hope of patching things up one day. Lo and behold, this combined with Bowser's surprisingly okay parenting of Bowser Jr. might just cement that peace one day when Jr. realizes that his dad's macking of a humanoid princess doesn't bloody compute. Mario is accepting, Sonic is somewhat intolerant (however understandably from a place of irritation resulting from early social isolation that may be). Mario stops Bowser's schemes but reaches out for redemption, Sonic increasingly aggravates Eggman's situation to cataclysmic consequence. Mario sports enough emotional maturity to at least attempt to court and propose to Princess Peach and feel some remorse when he gets in his brother's way, Sonic can't even tell Amy Rose (who'd clearly do anything for him) to put on her big girl bloomers and still draws his friendly rivals' ire to the point of losing basic trust (despite saving them and the world countless times) causing facepalm-worthy backfirings. For all of their similarities as plucky mascots predestined to be the only ones capable of saving the day a suspicious number of times, Mario's number one in this battle of character. Sonic could win out after someone drills some coming-of-age lessons into his head, becoming what Shadow should have been written as -- assuming that Sonic stands still long enough to let the drill do its thing.

[@wafflemutt6281]

Mario Bros. The appearance of his PLUMBER job. Removing crabs, and turtles.

[@BlackRaveBow]

They gave Sonic a pretty massive handicap. They tied Mario’s hands behind his back.

[@NestorCustodio]

That certainly took an unexpected turn at the end...

[@Kiolu100]

Love how Jack's argument went from "Sonic has an actual character" to "Mario is upholding the power structure of an oppressive bourgeoisie" and then arguing the semantics of fucking Sonic.

[@andrewhickinbottom1051]

"A woodland creature who talks, and therefore can give consent" - dear god, no Jack! Ive always much prefered Sonic, but there's no denying the weirdness of some of the fanbase out there... Also, the bit towards the end of the soundcloud talk (i refuse to call them 'podcasts') was brilliant, with Yahtzee discussing the dangers of sonic's carefree woodland utopia, and how Chinese consumerism would be more dangerous than Robotnik :-D

[@novadselir1068]

Got to say Sonic is better, Sonic is one of the most interesting parts of his universe regardless of incarnation while almost all characters in Mario are more more interesting than him.

[@TheMedicatedArtist]

I’m genuinely surprised neither of them mentioned Bowsette in that last argument

[@AleT118]

Or the hundreds of creepy art depicting Mario's harem of princesses and some lady who got abducted by a gorilla in very suggestive and disguisting scenarios in general.

[@novabella4422]

Reminder that Sonic breaks some creatures out of *flying* robots. Animals that can't fly, themselves. He lets squirrels fall to their death in the first game.

[@dnothstylez]

You know it's gone off-rails when even Yahtzee can't contain his laughter.

[@theelike4302]

Yahtzee spent so much more time talking about sonic than mario that should end this argument right there.

[@kacklina]

4:37...well that kills the argument that Mario is the kind of person you would introduce to your father...

[@r.pizzamonkey7379]

So today we learned Mario is a monarchist, Sonic is a marxist.

[@thegstr33t81]

No one said anything about Mario’s abuse of animals. He beats yoshi and sacrifices him on a regular basis.

[@Gabriel-zy7ee]

Sonid does the same to Tail in hat logic.

[@thegstr33t81]

@@Gabriel-zy7ee not really lol

[@metazoxan2]

I feel a bit bad for yatze in this one. He had so little to go off of to defend Mario he resorted to trying to make Dr. Robotnic out to be the hero just to criticize Sonic. Plus when talking about how they treat partners he couldn't even dare to mention Yoshi or he'd instantly lose. Mario may have more success in terms of games but you can't really argue he's a better character BECAUSE HE HAS NO CHARACTER! Although maybe that blank slate is part of the reason his games have stayed so stable over the years.

[@WeeklyMusicalShitposts]

The western versions of the Sonic 1 manual _incorrectly_ stated Sonic's Power Shoes as the source of his power. He's a cool 90's dude with genuine 90's 'tude and his powers are all his own! Mario's bland "personality" can go suck a toad's stool.

[@Andrew-yl7lm]

Well they kind of are, other shoes and his bare feet got destroyed when he ran. Those red boots were resistant.

[@SmartSmears]

I like that Jack is on Team Sonic after he made a video basically called "is Sonic the most overrated character of all time"

[@MrWilson812]

His argument is that since Sonic has a character at all he's the better of the two by default. Mario has no discernable personality traits.

[@oomfoof7294]

Also Yahtzee hates the blandness of Mario.

[@dyacz]

Sonic: Better Mario:..... NEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD

[@ShadwSonic]

Wrong about the shoes there. In all sources I've heard, the shoes are special only in that they can withstand the extreme friction generated by his extreme speed. The only time he couldn't run fast was when he was tricked into wearing Slo-Mo Sneakers, i.e. the shoes were actively slowing him down. Even then, it did nothing to prevent Spin Dashes from being their normally speedy selves.

[@ThatFanBoyGuy]

Dr. Robotnik with a broom as a mustache had me cracking up

[@yotamravid3159]

8:22 Jack could've just said here "well yea Mario is a SIMP." And also, I'm very surprised that Jack didn't go for the "Neither of them has any actual character therefore Mario can't have a better character than Sonic"

[@TheReZisTLust]

But Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 has character lol

[@imtoddhowardandimadeskyrim6553]

Mario is the better character. I'll explain it in 1 word Fanbase

[@robotom6595]

10:24 arguably the best point brought up in this

[@teagan9460]

Didn't Robotnick blow up the moon and split the world into pieces?

[@skynut_6988]

... in the games, robotnick is using the animals to power the robots, they don’t control the robots. I don’t like sonic, but saying his character sucks because he lets animals out of robots they control is not accurate. There are plenty of better argument points against sonic, though.

[@Bmabre7]

9:22 Jack sounded EXACTLY like John Green wtf. Also love this more ridiculous hypothetical debate.

[@ChessedGamon]

I’m so let down I don’t get to hear Yahtzee struggle to defend the character writing of Sonic the Hedgehog

[@TheReZisTLust]

Struggle?

[@AyyDraws]

For my love of ZP, this has got to be my favorite series now.

[@spectator3272]

"your-name-here" the hedgehog well I didn't expect to see such a variety of... hedgehogs?

[@scorpionsdogG64]

9:48 Yatz goes full Red Son

[@the_major]

Sonic has a commercially and critically successful movie under his belt. Discussion closed.

[@13Hyrule]

Jack could have brought up the fact that the blocks in Mario 1's instruction manual are listed as being the Mushroom Kingdom's residents. Hence he's a mass murderer of the general populace.

[@lnsflare1]

If you're going to cite Sonic Adventure, you should bring up the fact that a good chunk of the game is dedicated to how the robots are not controlled by the animals within them, and how one of them goes on a murder-suicide run to free the creatures that were trapped within them against their will. Oh, and the past where Eggman blew up half the moon in the sequel in order to hold the world hostage. Also, I haven't played Sonic '06, but I don't think that Sonic was making a play for the process so much as the princess was crushing on the guy that kept reaching her from an invading Eggman. Conversely, didn't Mario Odyssey show that Peach doesn't actually have a romantic relationship with Mario (or was at least very nonplussed by him making a move on her right after rescuing her from an unwanted wedding)? OTOH, I think that she (potentially) gives Mario a smooch on the cheek under similar circumstances in Super Mario RPG, so, eh... Actually, doesn't Mario Odyssey show that, whatever Mario is, he probably isn't actually a human considering his height and proportions compared to the humans of New Donk City? That said, Peach almost certainly isn't a human either by those standards, and the existence of "Peachette" suggests that she might actually be a female Toad who transformed into that shape because of the crown. But then again, we saw her as a baby in another game and she was human-ish then, so why is the Mushroom Kingdom rolled by sometime who isn't a mushroom?

[@gsgebdbgsgebdbdbxbxb2445]

I think Sonic's the better character he shows more personality and is overall a more interesting character

[@GreatWightSpark]

I love the half-hearted, downward spiral that these tend towards. It's so life-like.

[@ewills]

I feel like Yahtzee held the winning argument, but it was ultimately that argument that gave Sonic the win, for being loved by all the weird folk.

[@rayandanyaanime]

'propping up the bourgeoisie' was NOT the phrase I was expecting when I clicked on the video. 'Talking animals CAN give consent' was, unfortunately, somewhat expected

[@executioner_ecgbert884]

Thanks for making another one guys. Not a huge fan of either franchise but I like your slightly civil wars

[@1Diddums]

The tone of these are great.

[@DevilHunterWolf]

I know this is only the video context, but I think there was an easy missed point Jack could have slung to spin it in favor of Sonic. He didn't bring up the capsules at the end of the stages that frees the animals. It's easy to spin Robotnik enslaving the animals as giving them jobs and mech suits, but what is the explanation for packing a whole lot of them into a single, relatively small canister? Doesn't sound like a great housing project or anything. Almost more like imprisoning them! Can't say they're all fleeing from Sonic since in the first game, Sonic just runs off to the next zone after you free the animals. They run off in both away and the same direction as Sonic. Point back in favor of Sonic. I have to say as soon as Yahtzee brought out the fanbase, he lost the point. It's the characters themselves in their fictional worlds, not the real world perspective. If you're taking out the quality and reaction toward the games and just focusing on their worlds and characters, then bringing up the fans is an invalid point in my opinion. There are weird as hell Mario fans, too. It's just that Sonic is always an easy dunk because Nintendo is Nintendo and ban hammers so much of the deviant stuff. But, making that part of the argument is drifting away from the point of the discussion. I am more a Mario and Yahtzee fan in general than Sonic and Jack fan. Sorry, Jack. I'm just more long time familiar with Yahtzee's Zero Punctuation. But, I still think Sonic (and Jack) wins this one.

[@TALLPANZER]

Mario isn't human.

[@Cirrimus]

Anyone that thinks that Mario doesn't have character because he doesn't talk should play the 'Mario & Luigi' games. It doesn't exclusively demonstrate his personality, but it's the most concentrated collection of excellent demonstrations of his character. (and Luigi's by extension). Then when you go back to Mario 64 and beyond... you see those hints were always there. Mario and Sonic share a similar relationship as Bugs Bunny (Sonic) and Mickey Mouse (Mario). Urban cutting edge vs. Urban wholesome.

[@CyrilOfTheWind]

Sonic's speed is natural, his shoes just provide his feet with protection against instantly destroying his feet with friction, they are designed that way, they do not give him speed.

[@spacewizardpip1111]

“Sonic needs the handicap”, fucking LMAO! It’s true tho.

[@chillpenguin4118]

I did not think that the phrase "Sonic is the enemy of the working class" would be something I heard when I woke up today. Or ever, for that matter.

[@ZetaEntity101]

I was really interested about this and both of these guys have good points

[@subtlegong2817]

Actually Jeff The Hedgehog seems like a typical 90’s grunge rocker. Pretty accurate, if I look at my music playlist

[@TheAdventuresofRussell]

Sonic is the better character. He has a strong sense of justice and is always about the speed. In terms of our world he is the underdog (underhog if you will). That is a quality I just adore.