Was The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Really That Good? | Slightly Civil War

[@theescapist]

Watch today's episode of Slightly Civil War where Yahtzee and Jack debate whether or not Doom 2016 was better than Doom Eternal. www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/was-doom-2016-better-than-doom-eternal-slightly-civil-war/ Get the Podcast: Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/user-944993929/slightly-civil-war-was-doom-2016-better-than-doom-eternal Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/553m016S05GYKGLAJCkvIQ?si=FT_wuURcQCCahp2ibSlzLA iTunes: podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-escapist/id1466955951

[@barrybend7189]

I know a Slightly civil war idea: was Final Fantasy 7 remake really necessary?

[@Duckpo988]

@@barrybend7189 As long as it's not the massive civil war, Aerith or Tifa

[@potterinhe11]

What!?! Yathzee and Human Interation! More please!

[@crazytim8256]

These first three episodes seem promising; both Yahtzee and Jack can very intelligently hold their points in a discussion and have fun doing it. This is not what I expected from a new series with Jack, but I am loving thus far.

[@ChocoBeanChat]

Escapist I never subscribed to this. This is what I saw: Y likes botw while P hates it, but you force yourself to see the other POV 🤔 Am I mistaken?

[@duxnihilo]

Jack: "I think it boils down to one word: Nintendo has shown tremendous courage." Yahtzee: **says what everyone knew he was going to say**

[@WannabeWryter]

that's 5 words Jack

[@adamtapparo2168]

@@WannabeWryter *Ameri wryter: says what everyone knew they were going to say*

[@duxnihilo]

@@adamtapparo2168 Adam Tapparo: *says what everyone knew they were going to say* ^^

[@CZOM027]

Courage in breaking outside the mold of their own creation? That the industry moved from years ago? Such bravery shan't be spotted in this industry again...

[@adamtapparo2168]

@@duxnihilo 😯

[@grantdunn2544]

Debate is about the quality of a video game. Yahtzee: advocated for a free will deprived sci-fi dystopia.

[@zyxluz4645]

Going for that Templar Vs assassin argument

[@cameron9830]

*utopia

[@kidkangaroo5213]

"""dystopia""" Just sounds like Brave New World, which always intrigued me, because many debates can be had over if it's a dystopia or a utopia

[@meestabond7583]

When the strongest argument is 'open world is like USA' give me dystopia

[@bilbeman4125]

@@kidkangaroo5213 While on the surface you could say it's a utopia, the fact that most people are very happy all the time isn't what makes a utopia in my view. Brave New World presents a society where huge sacrifices are made, inflicting suffering to achieve the happiness. Children are conditioned to be uninterested in learning. People still feel ennui from drifting though life aimlessly. To me a utopia is an attempt to envision a truly perfect society, and that is clearly not what Brave New World is doing.

[@Udinanon]

it's amazing how much they sound like they recorded random words and rebuilt the speech from those with some sort of mediocre AI

[@Janiix89]

LOL, this is spot on

[@777Nny]

I couldn't call it "amazing", I'd call it "unfortunate". lol

[@pretends2know]

I feel like the Hero's Journey always needed a part where the Hero spends an entire weekend collecting poop from nine hundred bored forest spirits.

[@ajz2k]

Ah poop on me daddy aahh

[@GreatWightSpark]

Just like in Space Quest, our lowly hero starts as a janitor and gets all the shit (literally) jobs

[@sam_barris]

There were 900 koroks so there would be koroks to find wherever you went, not because the game expected you to find anywhere close to 900 koroks.

[@takuansoho5836]

"Yahaha !"

[@AdmiralAwsm]

It's more like a handful of sperm rather than poop

[@AlejandroSilva-mr7yy]

Every argument is "this game is exactly like everything else" "that's what makes it good" "no" I love it

[@Janiix89]

Ironically my issue with the game is that it doesn't retain any of the things from Ocarina of Time that were so special and memorable... oh well

[@WinstonKillDeath]

Janiix89 honestly I don’t think Ocarina holds up nearly as well as people think.

[@AlejandroSilva-mr7yy]

@@WinstonKillDeath to me it's fine, but having played it for the first time in modern age, it feels kind of empty and lacking in story depth.

[@anagoth9]

@@WinstonKillDeath OoT gets praise for being an accomplishment in it's time, like the original DOOM, Mario 64, or Goldeneye. Games like that were amazing when they came out and helped shape the gaming landscape for years after, but part of being a game with such a legacy is that other games will come along and take what was once bold and new and build off of it. The template becomes refined and the novelty wears off so where once you were a trendsetter now you're just part of a trend, and by the end of it likely not even the best iteration. It's like the "Seinfeld is unfunny" trope. But I think the broader point still stands. OoT established a formula for LoZ games for decades after which BotW strayed wildly from. People praised BotW for breaking the formula but frankly I don't recall many people complaining about the franchise being stale until BotW fans started saying it to defend the new game. It's great that so many people love BotW and I'm very happy for them that they can get enjoyment out of it. I truly mean that. But there are a lot of us who really, really liked the structure of the previous LoZ games for whom BotW just doesn't satisfy. Considering the near universal acclaim BotW is receiving (often ignoring A LOT of reasonable criticism against it beyond breaking the formula) it's safe to say Nintendo will likely build off of the BotW template and continue the next iterations of the series in a similar fashion moving forward. And that's going to make a lot of people happy, but open world games are a dime a dozen these days whereas the formula established by LoZ has fallen out of favor, leaving fans of the original style by the wayside. It's like if Nintendo looked at the success of Pokemon Go and decided that they were going to abandon the traditional formula for Pokemon games going forward. That will make a lot of people who love Pokemon Go happy, but the game is not really comparable to the traditional formula of the series and long time fans just end up losing a series they could once reliably look forward to for a fun experience.

[@austonvarner9142]

@@anagoth9 I'm mostly in agreement, but I definitely remember there being arguments that Skyward Sword was a sign of staleness in the series (although SS also got accusations of changing too much - it sort of fell in that weird spot of changing enough surface-level things to discomfort the traditionalists, while not changing enough under the hood for the novelty-seekers). I'm pretty sure Twilight Princess also got criticized for being very similar to OoT, though that was coming after Wind Waker, which did try a different formula (though not to the extent of BotW). But yeah, the classic Zelda formula was really satisfying, and it would be pretty awesome to get some more games that draw/improve upon it.

[@n0kidneys]

I can imagine how funny it would have been if Yahtzee was tasked with defending Breath of the Wild.

[@shinobidaniel_12]

So much bad luck

[@MasterfulPeon]

Definitely was hoping for that

[@Dr.CaveCurinas]

@@shinobidaniel_12 The issue is in a later one on whether DOOM Eternal is better than DOOM 2016, they remarked that that was the first one that Yahtzee had a position he agreed with. Thus, that would imply that he disagrees with his position here.

[@dragonfire7354]

@@Dr.CaveCurinas I mean, that makes sense. He rated breath of the wild in his top 5 the year it came out.

[@Random1567]

Crimson51 yeah these videos aren’t necessarily meant to be their actual opinions, fans sometimes forget that in the comments and just get lost in what they’re saying, usually due to their own bias lol I think Yahtzee likes it more than Jack tbh, not that I know for sure but that’s the underlying impression I got from this video at least

[@cmdrbratliff6226]

I feel like they need to give them more time to formulate arguments, this and the difficulty levels felt like there was some floundering about a point for a good bit of it.

[@SomeFreakingCactus]

And also none of this coin toss business. I want to see people debate on behalf of what they believe. I want to see passion.

[@thekingofcardboard]

I think they do it like this because yahtzee is already doing a show and they don't want to overwork him.

[@youngthinker1]

@@thekingofcardboard I would argue in favor of protecting his opinion. His show reflects his opinion, which people pay to hear. If it shows in this more serious environment, then people may miss the intense amounts of sarcasm.

[@cmdrbratliff6226]

@@thekingofcardboard I'm not sure how long the show takes, but I'm even suggesting like 30 mins of prep time to get them ready to debate for the points they don't necessarily agree with.

[@PepperKatLancer]

Why can Link not make arrows why must link buy somethings obtain others. Why does swords only last 3 hits wile bows last at least 5 shots?why do Metal weapons cause lighting strikes but not armor? Open world Has been done better in other games. Why does the map not unfold as you go why does it have to be a tower?the stealth just sucks. no fishing game? The story is non existent . Feels like we want to play what happens in the past. Not good music just one new tune really. Zelda always had good music. the min temples does not feel Organic .Collect a monk fart move on.

[@frankcos3333]

I think if he actually tried Yahtzee could make actual argument such as the lack of enemy diversity or how the open world is very bare with not much in it to explore. The shrines are very overplayed. I honestly think the game is good but still lacks in many departments

[@Tamacat388]

There are less types of enemies but the behaviors and capabilities of each individual enemy is far and above most other games and especially other Zelda games where enemies only existed to pretty much do their one attack and that's it. Now enemies have group behavior, can use several different weapons including weapons that they likely wouldn't come across unless you drop the weapon near them, ect. It's not fair to just leave it at "theres less diveristy." That misses WHY that's the case this time.

[@Tamacat388]

@@justletitallend8997 Ok dude. Thanks for letting me know.

[@OzKo]

The open world is never felt bare to me, there was something to do everywhere

[@Tamacat388]

@@OzKo Anyone calling BOTWs open world bare just isn't someone take seriously imo. Its just an absurd statement given how it could be mathematically proven wrong if someone wanted to spend 100s of hours tallying up all the content and activities in the world. Which itself just proves how worthless the statement is. Its equally as nuts as if someone tried to say that Final Fantasy XIII didnt have many cutscenes. Just one of those things that practically an objective untruth.

[@RedsByrd]

I agree that enemy diversity kinda sucks. It’s like the same 10 or so enemies copy pasted with different colored hair dye and massively buffed health pools. I don’t see how the open world is bare though there are plenty of cool little things to do like the various different over world challenges, shrines, the dungeons, side quests (not the stupid fetch quests ones) and even more stuff if you bought the dlc. And in terms of the shrines i feel like the only ones that were severely over played were the combat ones. All the same exact fight repeated over and over again. The puzzle shrines on the other hand we’re mostly unique and allowed for fun little brain teasers/ skill testers to do.

[@opszanski]

I know most people love this game, but I do sympathize with Yahtzee's point that carefully crafted narratives are often lost in the "organic" nature of open world games. That's why I love the Witcher 3 so much; you get the best of both worlds.

[@TheGodofweak]

Problem with the Witcher 3 is its ghastly to play. The combat and horse riding just isn't any fun, no matter how high a level you go, the combat is very bland, and unexciting. And the world is so damn buggy it takes you out of it. There are some great narrative beats, absolutely, but most of the game is built on forgettable "Side-Questing" but thats most of the main quest line in reality.

[@opszanski]

@Tiztu fuckin fanboys...

[@beefybruce7302]

@@TheGodofweak Ive played many hours of Witcher 3, and since its various patching and expansions, I have not encountered any bugs in the open world. The combat is as exciting as you make it out to be. You want to sneak in what hits you can and spam Quen, you can. You want to utilize your various spells to slow and weaken the enemies and chuck bombs at them, you can do that too. I truly believe the combat is as good as it needs to be. Not on Japanese levels of options in combat, but not just swing your sword at the enemy till they fall down either. The horse riding I can agree with. I dont blame it though, its just a mode of transportation and anything more than that I think is a nice little luxury, but doesn't bring down the overall experience for me at least. For the side questing bit, I think you're 100% wrong. Its very clear they've put a ton of effort into making the side quests as memorable as one could expect from "go kill this monster" or "find who burnt down my home". Its not like you can make *every* side quest some fantastical adventure akin to Oblivion's whodunit quest, or bringing the apocalypse down upon a small rural town. I most certainly remember more side quests from Witcher 3 than Skyrim, and I can tell you I did many more side quests in Skyrim.

[@bretginn1419]

@@TheGodofweak Exactly this. I love the story in The Witcher. I thought the characters were really good. The world made me want to see more of it. But the gameplay just feels so god awful.

[@opszanski]

@@beefybruce7302 I know someone who idolizes Bloodborne, and his views on Witcher 3 combat largely agree with yours - it's not as good, but decent enough and still better than tons of shite out there

[@tylerroman4179]

This is interesting, but I feel like it would be better if they together worked to explain both the pros and cons of the argument, because you can tell sometimes one of them doesn’t actually believe in the argument and it detached from it

[@tylerroman4179]

_Girth and I think the content would be better if it wasn’t framed as a debate

[@ligtningdog6399]

Beside it's being a debate, the number of cons is greatly overshadowed by the pros. The one big negative is that weapons always broke. But not only do you have dozens of tools around you at any given moment, some of the really good weapons re-spawn.

[@Resters52_official]

@@ligtningdog6399 I feel like that would have worked better if you could attack with an empty hand, if I enter a bokoblin camp and my last sword breaks on the first hit then I have to run away until I find a good weapon, that would be fixed if I could just turn around and belt them one, obviously it would have bad damage and range because that makes sense and still makes you want a weapon.

[@PirateDuzzo]

@@Resters52_official Or you can choose to not run for a weapon and just fight them with metal objects and magnesis, bombs, korok leafs, horses, exploding barrels...

[@rufusconnolly8489]

The word you were looking for is "detracted" o.o/

[@HCSR2]

Wow this flows perfectly at 1.25x speed. Makes me wonder if they accidentally uploaded the original at 80% speed.

[@jordanj809]

HCSR2 improvised debates don’t flow like the morning wind

[@Yal_Rathol]

jack, you gotta challenge yahtzee more man, you're letting his arguments stomp all over yours. question him, put him on the spot, this isn't an interview, it's a debate. play to win.

[@blueyoshi4211]

Both these guys are fucking around and it’s hilarious

[@Yal_Rathol]

@@blueyoshi4211 fucking around or not, it's not fun to watch a guy concede every point when their are very easy and good counters. jack going "yes, dear" on every line would be more amusing.

[@blueyoshi4211]

Yal Rathol i think the problem is you’re taking this as a real debate when it’s not, it’s a very bad debate, what’s funny is how they posture I think.

[@Yal_Rathol]

@@blueyoshi4211 the number of people agreeing with me in the comments indicate this is not "the problem with me". this is a problem with the series, in part because it makes it too easy for yahtzee and he sounds bored out of his mind because of it.

[@blueyoshi4211]

Yal Rathol I never said it’s a problem with you specifically, I think it’s more of the way of how the series is presented, I was about to click off the video as well until I got the notion of a debate out of my mind and sped it up to 1.25, I don’t think Yahtzee is bored he’s just talking much slower than we usually hear him. Also Yahtzee’s argument are also shit, ranging from “this game has towers” to a philosophical outlook on the importance of freedom. The one argument that’s pretty good is the whole “a carefully crafted linear experience is better” but seriously this whole video just works better if you take the idea of a debate out of your mind, you can tell neither side really believes or has even prepared what they’re arguing and the actual “debate” suffers because of it

[@MrEPIC0CITY]

Miyamoto's own words from IGN interview “I think the story in Breath of the Wild still doesn't break the balance that's been established in previous Zelda games,” he said. “But we also wanted to make a game where, after someone is done playing, their own experience in that game is what the story is, and I think we've been able to accomplish that with this title.”

[@irempilehvarian1674]

ok I am sorry they are trying to have an argument and neither of them brings up the weapon poofing mechanic. I thought that would be a good ammunition for yahtzee.

[@Touching_Zone]

I don't think either of them really had anything of substance to say about the game.

[@Rayen015]

Yahtzee had a dozen gripes against the game in his original review but barely touches on any of them here. That game had flaws but they never get into nitty gritty of the game here.

[@treytucker9948]

or mindcraft being the ultimate free will game.

[@TheOniraf]

Or the not existant monaster variety or the reused miniboss

[@Touching_Zone]

@@treytucker9948 Prob one of the only ones

[@Katzelle3]

10:35 - BotW literally removed that part of open world games. - They placed 900 Korok seeds across the map to eliminate such moments.

[@brendancorey7831]

A second series I'm really into and actually have watched on your website, I'm impressed

[@theescapist]

Glad you're enjoying!

[@brendancorey7831]

Me too!

[@jordanray1537]

@@Onikage55 But it's so they can think their arguments through to make them clear and concise and I'd rather it be on the spot then they have a scripted argument.

[@jordanray1537]

OniKage I mean personally it’s no issue to me, I was just responding to you. And I must‘ve missed the feedback section because I was under the impression it was just an opinion.

[@connormcconnell7881]

@@theescapist the only change I would make is speeding them up to 1.25%in editing

[@SageofStars]

Is it good? Yes, very much so. A reactive world, lots of things to find, and several things to do. Was it great? As a story type of gamer, I found parts of it far more annoying than I should have, especially since there's very little happening in the game directly. Previous Zeldas had you as the center of the narrative. You were the lever making things happen. Here...it kind of feels like things have already happened before you ever show up, and you're not even really seeing the aftermath of them, but more just cleaning up the remains. Also, as Arlo and others note, it needed more to do with all the stuff you collected. A crafting or personal upgrade system of sorts. Something to show real progression, other than the Champion Abilities, which are nice, but they're still limited both due to timers, and in some cases, very specific uses.

[@Befferson]

I can taste the controversy already,magnificent.

[@KingOfDoma]

Yahtzee: The story doesn't even have a hero's journey Mentor! Me: *points at the Old Man from the Great Plateau emphatically*

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

No, the old man just wants a handy. I've heard the songs...

[@CZPC]

Oh yeah he was for the 10 minutes he was around

[@elix485]

He's no mentor figure. He works as the call for adventure and nothing more.

[@skprog]

ya but they have done the mentor thing in other games. owl im looking at you. but they realized that it makes more sense to have many minor mentors story wize.

[@dylansepper]

@@elix485 I'm pretty sure for most people, the call to adventure was Zelda calling to link from Hyrule castle to come and save her.

[@spencers.7605]

This was a complete easy lay-up for Jack and he somehow whiffed, completely. If your best arguments came from the opposition, you lost. Open world games are good because, uh, America? Really?

[@refootage747]

I do believe he was making a joke sir

[@claiminglight]

I'd happily argue that botw is an overrated monument to lost opportunity.

[@yusufahmed3072]

@@claiminglight even though I am a zelda fan, but isn't that the deal with zelda games in general?. People always praise them as if they are the best games ever when in reality they do nothing new and the gameplay and story are always simple. The case with botw is that it had good marketing that made people believe that it was actually something very revolutionary and game changing to game design.

[@iMasterchris]

yusuf ahmed “Anybody who thinks this game is amazing is a dumb sheep who fell for their marketing” is quite the take for one of the most talked about games of the last few years.

[@yusufahmed3072]

@@iMasterchrissorry for the misconception let me rephrase that. I'm not saying the game is bad or that anybody how is loving it is a sheep. The game made new things to zelda games but, to zelda games only. It didn't do anything new to game design or open world games. And what I ment with marketing, is that if the game didn't have the word zelda on it, critics and people would've not gave it the praise that it is getting and would have called it bland and repetitive.

[@ondrej2871]

Yathzee: Jack has it easier because I also agree with his position. Joseph Anderson: Hold my 4 hour beer.

[@hubblebublumbubwub5215]

I don't get it Edit: will someone please explain the joke already? I'm going insane

[@janpawedwa4590]

I like Joe, his "essays", as he likes to call them are fantastic, the latest Witcher one especially, but he really missed the mark on the Zelda and "Merrio" ones. Seems like he analyzed every point to death, but forgot to include whether the game is fun or not into the equation.

[@mayman4255]

@@janpawedwa4590 I don't think so,he criticizes the progression cycle of the games,the shrines and moons in BOTW and mario sucked respectively.

[@chrissullivan6403]

All I know about joe is he said his audience doesn’t understand the basics of communication after he made a video where he poorly communicated his point.

[@eviekujak8393]

@@janpawedwa4590 Joe really liked BotW, even for all of its "shortcomings" -- lack of depth and challenge. But when you're criticizing a popular game, you have to go very in depth on its perceived flaws, or people will just dismiss you as nitpicking outright. I think fun was his most important factor in the equation, as he simply didn't find Mario Odyssey fun, and that's why he was so negative about it. I don't agree, but I can appreciate the thought that went into his positions. Consider that just because you disagree with his conclusions doesn't mean he missed the mark.

[@xLink95]

They made traveling really fun with gliding, climbing and shield surfing. Found myself constantly distracted on my way to main ovjectives. The game didn’t start to feel very repetitive until I played it for 200+ hours. And even after that, I’d go back every now and then. Turn off the hud and just get lost for hours. It was a nice feeling.

[@auditoryeden]

"It's the first truly open world!" Surely Jack Packard has played Minecraft?

[@lloydhedges3011]

Or literally any other survival crafting game.. His arguments about "truly open world" could apply to subnautica, no man's sky, Minecraft, the forest or even any Elder Scrolls game.

[@aaronbasham6554]

I was going to say my main argument is the game can be beaten in

[@salsamancer]

Does Minecraft have a "win" condition? Is it actually a game?

[@Skivenous]

Mans got a point

[@lloydhedges3011]

@@salsamancer technically yes though as far as endings go it's pretty empty. You work towards going to a boss area and fighting a dragon, you get its egg and the credits roll. You get a weird fourth wall breaking text roll and then the game throws you back in to follow your dreams.. Unless something changed in the two or so years since I played it last anyway.

[@BenjaminSteber]

He made Yahtzee laugh. I've only ever seen Gabriel do that, years ago.

[@keanutucker-love6029]

Best joke and it actually had a great point as well

[@fathergetdown]

Well it had to balance out because Gabriel also pissed him off A LOT, hahaha.

[@contrabardus]

This seems lazily done. Yahtzee didn't use half the ammo available to him to criticize Breath of the Wild. The sheer amount of collectables that eventually amount to nothing, the overzealous weapon durability, the uneven difficulty with some rather large difficulty spikes, the fact that there are indeed lots of barriers for the player to areas in the form of high level enemies and walls that are scripted to create rain and keep you from climbing them, the small number of traditional dungeons, the abundance of puzzle and challenge rooms to replace dungeons, etc... The fact that something is possible does not mean that you have "total freedom", as there is indeed a high skill requirement to traverse many parts of the game before you're supposed to, or you need to use exploits, which one could argue is not really experiencing the game as intended. I'm not arguing it's a bad game, just that this seemed a bit too much of a softball "debate" that seems to avoid most of the things that could have been used to argue that the game is overrated.

[@dani4ever]

Rain never stopped me in BOTW, it only forced me to reroute. And it's easy to cheese the climbing in the rain

[@contrabardus]

@@dani4ever I covered both of those things. Scripted rain is BotW's way of saying "don't go this way, find another route", and cheesing is an exploit, not the intended way to play.

[@newellboy2]

Nah korok seeds were great, you're not meant to collect them all.

[@Densoro]

I agree. They spent more time hashing out the abstract idea of open-world games, than digging into BotW's actual mechanics. In general, I feel that the most interesting plays are early-to-midgame, and then shit starts getting metagamey to keep up with the health and damage scaling.

[@dani4ever]

@@Densoro the "real" world mechanics could be tweaked to have more impact. Like throwing enemies off a Cliff, burning them, crushing them. That way, even if you didnt prepare as much for the scaling you could still overcome them with problem solving. I rarely took advantage of explosions.

[@bird3713]

I wasn’t that impressed with this one; I wish they had discussed the argument of a crafted experience vs. an open world more. I don’t like open worlds for this very reason.

[@seef4966]

agreed. and the problem with breath of the wilds open world is it feels extremely crafted. assets and experiences copy and pasted over a vast map that basically boils down to cosmetic variations.

[@Rin_ku]

seej fish I’m not sure what you mean? Outside of Korok seeds much of the world is meticulously crafted to aide in exploration, as discussed in their GDC talk they mentioned how even the positioning of rocks affected the dynamics of gameplay as what we see affects where we go. Breath of the wild is far from a sandbox in the same vein as minecraft.

[@bucwhovian8305]

seej fish that’s what I like about it, you can find bit and pieces of the story as you go along and in any order.

[@bucwhovian8305]

You didn’t give a reason, you just mentioned a topic you wanted them to talk about.

[@greatgoblin3065]

My biggest point of contention for Breath of the Wild is that the fight with Calamity Gannon sucked. The ending was such a letdown after the game built it up so much.

[@Resters52_official]

the initial fight wasn't bad in my opinion, and the second form is fun to play. The only let down for me was the cut scene that plays after he's defeated, I guess it's good for Zelda's whole arc since she finally sealed the evil, but I would have much preferred it if gannon just collapsed and skidded to a stop after the final hit, and if there was a post game

[@tomgeytenbeek2207]

I legit thought it had glitches out when the world resumed with just as much Calamity as ever, I was disappointed that I'd beaten it on my birthday and now I'd have to come back the next day and go all the way back through the fight before I got closure

[@Vvonter]

I wonder if a sequel could explain it. Maybe it was just a Phantom Ganon, and it won in the past mainly because it caught the heroes by surprise and at a lower level.

[@blameitonthedie4321]

Agree on that. The last battle was far too easy, thunderblight was far harder. And the cut scenes (both endings) were something of a let down as well. Not really the sense of closure I was looking for. The rest of the game was amazing though

[@tomgeytenbeek2207]

@@Vvonter you're right on this one- it was in fact a phantom, and the true force of nature it was had long since weakened. Does go some way to making me feel better, though I still wish it'd been at least a bit more climactic

[@phoenixthehound4928]

Only thing I didnt like about Breath of the Wild was the breakable weapons. Its just something I hate in any game.

[@flightlesschicken7769]

Who knew hardened steel was really balsa wood

[@flightlesschicken7769]

@@EinFelsbrocken Plus it doesn't even really force using a variety of weapons as there are basically 4 or 5 types of weapons and a bunch of skins for that weapon. Oh yeah, you could use a broom as a weapon, but it doesn't behave any differently than any other polearm.

[@miyamotomusashi6450]

I think it enhances the game, it makes you think about every battle. There are consequences to just keep hacking away at an enemy. It is also so much more satisfying when you get a weapon that is basically unbreakable.

[@shinobidaniel_12]

It's dumb

[@mr.chrisr-c3767]

They should have used the fallout 3 method of weapon breaks where You can repair a weapone when you have more than one of it and if it breaks yous still have it you just cant use it anymore and you need to pay someone to repair it I think it would have made the break mechanic a little less stressful

[@mattpinkerton6562]

It took Yahtzee exactly 3 minutes and 19 seconds to start questioning humanity, free will, and the notion of working to achieve happiness when asked "Is game good?"

[@henshini]

I really like the premise of this series, but there’s something about Jack’s performance that gives me the impression that he doesn’t care or hasn’t put any effort into this. I assume this isn’t the actual case, it’s just how it comes across.

[@TSalispahic]

Ryan Henshaw well, he is rather newer for the escapist, and yahtz did a similar thing like this years ago

[@chadnorris8257]

I like how calm these civil debates are. Usually when you think of debates, you think of people shouting over each other. Not having a casual conversation over a cup of tea, about opposing viewpoints.

[@rhettorical]

It feels weird to hear Jack talking to someone who isn't an alcoholic Wisconsinite.

[@drew2794]

Save yourself a few minutes and set playback speed to 1.25x since. they. talk.. like. this. for... some. rea.son.

[@wintermanthenforcer]

Well, it's a debate. You have to think, improvise, and reply on the fly, they don't just read off scripts.

[@kinglooper]

It's not. Scripted. They are. Thinking. About what they say.

[@Kaunte]

Thanks, that actually makes it much better to listen to

[@redlord4321]

ya should just edit it like zp to cut out the pauses

[@jordanj809]

Howling MoMo ZP isn’t recorded on the spot and every breath is edited out. Yahtzee has a script

[@sineadthomas2024]

Jack said this games side quests are good. “Hey, here’s another fetch quest with no story attached to it”

[@ARWAKE0606]

Sinead Thomas or is it?

[@FFXfever]

@@isodoubIet everyone knows Witcher 3 have extremely strong side content. I've never seen a discussion that it didn't.

[@Dante-uj5pc]

isodoublet both games are basically polar opposites. One is a crowning achievement in narrative realism, the other one a crowing achievement in exploration and physics systems. The story music quests and side quests of botw are laughably bad imo, but the game gets away with it on the sheer pleasure and fun it brings to exploration. They might as well be two different genres tbh, they have so little in common

[@Chris-mc2dt]

David Niane Breath of the Wild soundtrack is a fucking masterpiece

[@CaptainWumbo]

@@isodoubIet You're right but if people are praising BotW side quests they missed the point. I played BotW first then Witcher 3 and they are not the same genre of game. I tried to explore in a random direction and ignore the main story like I did in BotW and got killed very badly by random mobs in Witcher 3. Witcher 3 really wants you to follow the white line to the next story beat and be near the right level for the quest. When you follow the white line the pacing in Witcher 3 is just fantastic, you get totally engrossed in the dialogues and the story. In BotW even the main story items are hopelessly boring but the world itself and the sense of travel are so excellent that just coming across things and looking at the pretty graphics is itself a lot of fun. It's cool just to climb a big mountain or find a new biome. Witcher 3 sorta actively punishes you for ignoring the quests, you're not quite in the drivers seat and you can end up following the main quest so long you're way overleveled for the content you were supposed to happen across (a million dumb mob camps or buried treasures or whatever). Both really fantastic games but I think people play them for different reasons.

[@webbowser8834]

Imma be honest, the debate was not terribly impressive and turned to a more philosophical argument on the merits of open world gameplay, with Yahtzee playing an almost comical strawman character. Unlike what Jack opened his argument with, truly open worlds have actually been done before with games like Just Cause 3, and BotW is by no means a flawless game. Things the game does well: 1. Best combat in a Zelda game since Twilight Princess, while being difficult enough to encourage players to actually exercise the combat system. 2. Startlingly intelligent enemy AI, capable of doing things like kicking away bombs, throwing their friends into combat, and setting up ambushes for the player. 3. Probably the biggest thing is that Breath of the Wild represents the biggest break we've had from the traditional Zelda formula in over a decade, if not ever. The fact that this experiment was as successful and polished as it was will forever stand to Nintendo's credit, regardless of whatever criticism I may have for the game. 4. And yes, despite my earlier combat stating that a "truly" open world has both been done and done well before, Breath of the Wild did it very well and deserves credit for that. Things the game does not so well: 1. Boss fights were boring and depressingly easy, with only a few exceptions. While I'm a big fan of boss designs that encourage the player to find their own openings as opposed to bosses that present obvious weaknesses to the player (looking at you Twilight Princess....), most of the bosses in this game simply didn't threaten the player enough to stop them from casually drawing their bow and firing away (Thunderblight Ganon and the DLC hidden boss were notable exceptions). This issue is compounded by the fact that most of the bosses were vulnerable to headshot stuns, allowing players to pretty trivially stunlock a boss for most of the fight, which is tremendously unsatisfying (and because most bosses are floating, this was pretty much the only way you were getting any substantial damage on them without throwing a quiver of bomb arrows into their face). I highly recommend the developers look at Kingdom Hearts and/or Dark Souls series for bosses that don't rely on being invincible for 75% of the fight to provide a fun and engaging challenge for the player. 2. While I will praise Bokoblin and Moblin AI for hours on end, overall enemy variety is kind of lame. You basically had 3 "archetypes" of enemies: simple enemies (keese, slimes, wolves, etc), complex enemies (which contain precisely Lizalfos, Bokoblins, Moblins, Guardians(you could argue that these deserve their own category), and Lynels), and mini bosses (which contain Talos, Hinox, and Moldoga). The overwhelming majority of enemies you will fight are in the complex enemy category. While their AI and interesting base setups prevent them from getting tedious too quickly, eventually the player will figure out their quirks, and all combat will start feeling the same to the point where many players start avoiding combat entirely. That ain't great. The Legend of Zelda is known for having a ton of enemy variety, with a steady stream of new enemies in each new area to keep the player on their toes. That was missing from this game, and I believe it suffered as a result. 3. As Yahtzee mentioned, the plot was pretty bare bones even by Zelda's very low standards. There is minimal interaction between Link and anyone else, Ganon went from being a conniving villain sowing discord and strife across the land to just being a big monster sitting in the castle for the entire game, and I was completely unable to invest myself into the world and the people within it. Zelda's story told through Link's memories was pretty alright (even if I don't particularly care for the idea that Link's entire life was centered around a single person), but 9 30 second clips spread throughout a 40+ hour game doesn't really satisfy me all that much. I'm sure a lot of this was a semi-necessary sacrifice to achieve the "truly open world" they were going for, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let it slide. 4. Speaking of sacrifices, one big thing that the open world did was completely throw out any semblance of a difficulty curve. It's basically a flat line that completely drops off after the first divine beast. All the divine beasts are balanced to be fairly similar in difficulty, so while Link is growing in strength and durability (mostly through clothing upgrades and health increases), everything around him stays at roughly the same power level. This makes the latter half of the game, up until Hyrule Castle, feel more like a chore then a game. Obviously, there's nothing stopping you from just going straight to Ganon after the first beast (or heck, just go straight to him without doing any), but the fact that there are significant portions of the game that just don't threaten you after a certain point really removes any tension from the gameplay, and that's not a good thing for an ACTION adventure game. Can't have action without some tension. So yeah, game is by no means flawless and I do think that "Best game ever" is pull of the recent at its finest. While I didn't really elaborate on the stuff BotW does well (simply because I don't feel the need to, not because I can't), the positives absolutely shine past the negatives. I think the most important conclusion anyone can take away from discussing BotW's quality is this: the base the game rests on is absolutely rock solid. None of the flaws I described here are "unfixable"(with the possible exception of 4), and many of them are almost guaranteed to be fixed in BotW 2. This makes me very excited for the future of The Legend of Zelda.

[@BugsyFoga]

Yatzhee being the negative one here in this debate is basically the usual I expect from him .

[@HerMi.T]

Botw is famous for its best exploration and rewarding system. This makes world more immersive than previous any open world games. It give you sense of discovery when you find. It's quests system also force you to watch out environmental details to solve problems. It's terrain hide every secrets. You had to explore every nook and cranny of world to find everything. Best example of this is hybra region which hides most of the shrines and secrets by it's terrain. This makes world more immersive.

[@swguygardner]

The biggest flaw in BotW is Link as a character. He has no personality AT ALL. I get the silent protagonist angle, but he doesn't react to anything with any kind of real emotion or personality. When you collect the photo of the champions and return to your furnished home, a little cutscene plays out where he stands in front of it and some contemplated music swells.... But he just stands there, like a robot, eye's slowely moving apart like a fish suffocating on land. He doesn't show saddness at the loss of his friends, or determination to save Zelda, or anger at Ganon for what he's done. He just exists. Zelda tells us more about what Link supposedly feels in her journals than he ever shows in the entire game, and even that is her own personal interpretation of his bland silence. I care about the other characters in the game, because we see them, their feelings, their suffering, their joy. I genuinely love BotW, and it's an amazing game, with this relatively small flaw. But I did catch myself several times, when being introduced to other characters like Revali or Urbosa, why I wasn't playing as one of them instead? You can use the old "Link is supposed to be an audience surrogate" but then why was everyone, including Nintendo, so reluctant to giving the character a gender option? It seems strange to me that they purposefully make Link bland and robotic for the audience to project onto, but still think he is a developed enough character that he has to remain physically like in every other game? Why not Link a full character creation system, you decide how your character should look, the same way most other audience surrogate character games work? But if Link is such an iconic character that you can't, why not actually make him a character? It's very shallow, and unsatisfying to me. But that's just me personally, I'm sure other people either like how they did Link, or just don't care too much about it either way :)

[@redlord4321]

but hes not a silent protagonist there are dialogue options so hes speaking to other people we just never hear it its even worse then silent protagonist

[@swguygardner]

@@redlord4321 That's a good point. Even then, those "options" always result in the same outcome anyway, so even if you try to form a personality for him based on your responses, it's effectively meaningless, since the other choices result in the same thing.

[@fortunatesoul12]

The animations really add up to the videos. Also Yathzee channeling his Loki with "Is freedom all that great" line. Keep it coming

[@yap_yap_]

Yup it was really that good and I’m ceo of Xbox

[@justcallmeleonardo]

@@ShadowMan64572 He's not a gamer. He's a *EPIC* gamer.

[@axios4702]

Really?

[@mayman4255]

yo man is the new xbox gonna he good?

[@yap_yap_]

Super good

[@krackenkiller9286]

It's completely open world, you can do anything you want, wherever you want. Assuming you don't want to climb something and the game decides to be raining, or just have a sword or shield equipped and there is lightening. Or it's a little high up so u need to have found thermal undies. Touts its exploration as the big draw but makes it a pain in the arse to do so

[@benabaxter]

You can totally climb in the rain. Just time your leap up properly.

[@nohomers100]

I'm sorry but I play games for fun. The new Doom games, Devil May Cry, Bloodborne....these games are great simply because they are FUN TO PLAY. I could give a rats ass about open worldness, at the end of the day stopping game play cuz your weapon breaks or having to constantly eat...etc that's not fun. It strikes more like work

[@nohomers100]

@Tiztu Ammo generally is replenished pretty easily. I've never played a game where ammo was a thing that it was so bad I was afraid of using the weapon. In Zelda the weapon breaking is at the point where you are afraid of using certain weapons you find cuz they will break after 3 swings. Also, ammo will have a count of how much you have left. Zelda weapons needed some kind of health bar to give you a good sense of when they will break

[@Dr.CaveCurinas]

@@nohomers100 Weapons are literally everywhere, though. I constantly wound up getting newer, better weapons and although I wound up saving some of the super-good ones for Lynels and bosses the issue you describe never came up in any of my playthroughs.

[@francissirizzotti7283]

@@Dr.CaveCurinas If you're constantly getting newer and better weapons... what's the point in having them break all the time? Seems like it's mostly an inconvenience mechanism.

[@Dr.CaveCurinas]

@@francissirizzotti7283 If they break, then finding a new weapon becomes more of a reward. Finding another of the same weapon doesn't mean anything if those weapons don't break.

[@francissirizzotti7283]

@@Dr.CaveCurinas Oh, I see - so you're not finding newer better weapons all the time. You're mostly finding the same weapons over and over again? In that case, why bother with breaking weapons? Seems like if there's always an identical weapon lying around, surely that's about the same as just not having them break, right? Except, of course, without the inconvenience of having to walk over to one and hit a button.

[@high.level.noob.]

The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild is different than other open world games and way more original unlike Yahtzee says. You see: in other games if you go around in the open world, you aren’t actually working to achieve any goal. You are basically just playing for the sake of it. There is only one way to progress the game and that is to go the guy to get a linear mission. That is not as open as it gets. In Breath of the Wild: you can go beat the main boss after the tutorial and everything else you do in the world, would it be the quests or something entirely else, just builds up to that final confrontation. So by sprinkling the game’s content, you basically get an open world where ever you go, you are always in the right place. That means you are encouraged to explore the world not just because there is nothing else to do but you are working to a goal. You can even do the missions however you want as long as you get it done.

[@DSzaks]

"True go anywhere, anytime gameplay".... well anywhere you don't need a certain stamina threshold to get to - aka character skill gated areas. "BoTW doesn't have invisible walls" .... except those invisible walls at the edges of the map O.o

[@Andri474]

You can eat food while gliding/climbing to restore stamina, so it's never a problem so long as you stop for 5 minutes to collect some ingredients and cook them. and The invisible walls at the edge of the map do exist, but they make sense, so they have an excuse. I mean, there's no game there, so where are you gonna go?

[@DSzaks]

@@Andri474 Yeah that the same argument you could make about any invisible wall in any game. There is no game past this point so where are you gonna go? The difference is where most games have a the playable area structured out in a specific way to funnel you to the game areas for story or game play elements (like a web or something); BotW just squished that web up to form a single a circle. Don't misunderstand, it is a great game, but Its not really a revolutionary concept. All they did was change the shape of the open world map. Like imagine if GTA 3 just removed the bridges between islands and just stacked each island right next to each other. That's all they did. It is an extremely minor and almost inconsequential point overall but people act like.... well like they reinvented the wheel as he puts it in the vid, when they did not. There are many great things about the game but praising it for having a map that is a big circle is really not one of them.

[@Andri474]

@@DSzaks Yes, well, I get your point, but the video here isn't very serious. I mean, they hardly made any points, it's more for laughs than anything, so when Jack talks about "reinventing the wheel" ofc I don't take him seriously and I agree with you that this isn't the case. I just wanted to say that the invisible walls at the end of the map are justified, while invisible walls from one hill to another, that can be circumvented by the player just going around, are silly and should not exist anymore, which is precisely what BotW does right. No more invisible walls at chest high picket fences or at the top of hills, I can just go over them, so that's neat.

[@syaieya]

So, I did enjoy Breath of the Wild. But my biggest argument against is that about half way through the incentive for exploration kinda just died and I was quickly looking for the game to just end. Enemies and weapons weren't getting stronger. Nothing a normal treasure chest was going to provide me had anything better than I already had on me. I had enough hearts and stamina to go anywhere with enough of the random food I carried healing me. Who needs a horse when you can tower warp and glide anywhere? I still had two more beasts to take down and well over half the shrines I could meander to but I just didn't see much to gain outside the main story. So I cut my losses, finished the story, had half my final fight cut thanks to cutscene. Then watched all the tension go out the window as I shot a big slow target in the middle of a field until zelda woke up and stole the kill.

[@ephemeraldgames]

I feel like both of them were being facetious with their arguments instead of actually going for what they're supposed to be expressing

[@TheWhite2086]

It took the Link's Awakening remake for me to realise why I don't like BotW as much as a lot of people seem to. I got to the end LA and thought to myself "holy shit, that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that game" and that made me realise that my thoughts at thte end of BotW were "that boss fight was a bit of a letdown" and a vague feeling of relief that I was done. Basically I was happy to have finished Link's Awakening, I was happy to be done with BotW

[@theweddingsinger1970]

No game is perfect, but BotW is one of the finest adventure games ever made.

[@errorprototype3172]

....... I'll keep my mouth shut

[@rdowg]

Eh, it's great for walking around mindlessly, but almost every other aspect kinda sucked.

[@metroidcypher]

@@rdowg breath of the wild lived up the the hype and 10/10 for the first few hours but after that it fell apart and became repetitive, an honest 7/10. You can tell they spent most of their time creating the world and physics while combad story and characters were rushed. Even Aonuma pretty much confirmed that they slapped together the the story/cutscenes

[@RealTrachta]

Reddit moment!

[@czarkowskipawelyt]

ahhahahahha, wow, no.

[@R0B1NG5]

I liked it quite a bit and I was honestly surprised. I was really worried when it was first revealed that it was going to be bad. I just sort of assumed nintendo were just now catching up to open world games and they would be in their own little bubble thinking it was revolutionary when it was pretty derivative of skyrim ect and their lack of expertise in the genre would shine through. I only got around to playing it relatively recently and I loved it. I just got absorbed into it for like 150 hours so easily. Cynically before release I had been seeing the towers you climb to reveal the map and the "see that mountain in the distance, you can got their" and "the map is X times bigger than Ys map" mentality they were hinging it on and it all seemed so tired on paper. But actually experiencing it, with the ways they specifically handled the details of the map/towers ect and the subtle differences between them and conventional open world design in other games, it just worked. It felt new and appealing. It had so much more heart and humanity to its design than I am used to from the kind of bulk-produced massive open world game design I had become accustomed to. I never got all the korok seeds, but for the first time in a long time, it didn't matter. I normally obsess over collectibles, but the sheer number and the cut off point for how beneficial they are gameplay wise, which meant i just collected the ones that I found on my way until I was satisfied. The specific ones I found were just part of my specific path through the game, and I liked that. I was okay with not having it all. It was weirdly freeing in a way for me as a player and having some left around allowed the world to still feel alive and mysterious in a way, unlike a lot of open world games which can feel kind of "mined out" and dead after the fact because they expect you to 100% it and mop up every little copy pasted task and icon untill the map is "clean". But as a result it felt more "alive" in comparison at the start when they are bombarding you with map segments filled with icons. I felt I used the botw map as an actual map more often than in most other games. I looked at the topography and thought, "hey that canyon looks weird in this segment, I wonder if there is anything cool down their, I can swing by it since I'm on the way past for this other reason". I didn't mark the "secret temple" icon and get a big 3d orange arrow on the top of my screen to constantly look at and ignore everything actually happening on the way there. I just feel like it was really smartly designed to let you consider the world and cut away the right aspects of the ui and map compared to previous open world game design. I think its easily the best game on the switch and of the year it was released. I think my only problems with it were some control and inventory issues. Personally, I don't like weapon durability in games, but I can tolerate it if it feels justified in terms of the design. I feel like in botw they wanted to add more frequent but lower value items to sprinkle into the world, and give exploration more potential rewards, and increase the value of having more weapons slots which in turn increased the value of the seeds ect. And in that sense the player needs to be consuming things so that finding and holding more of them has value. I think it has come up again with the New Animal crossing where they have tried to do the same thing, but maybe less successfully. I wish I had suggestions but I feel like there has to be more ways to have items hold their value to you without everything tool/weapon being non permanent. So its hard for me to criticize when I don't have an alternative off-hand. But regardless, once I got the higher durability weapons, it stopped the majority of my irritation, it was only when I was stubborn and using a low damage weapon on a higher threat enemy that I disliked the system the most, and it was a pretty small annoyance in the scope of everything I liked all across the game otherwise.

[@RabaalXer0]

No artificial barriers? The last boss literally REQUIRES you to perform a perfect dodge parry to even damage it in one of his phases. A skill that I had literally never been required to use beforehand. and before the fucking omega-betas come in with their "omg fake gamer lulz" yeah I beat him on my first try, but I'm a grown as man with a relatively decent reaction speed and 30 years of gaming experience. I could only imagine the legions of 8-10 year olds raging at that shit as it is not a simple task to achieve. It does require a modicum of skill. My daughter, who it seems is this games target age demographic, would absolutely not be able to do it. It absolutely has invisible walls. It absolutely has areas with skill barriers, lionels being one of the bigger ones. The largest problem with open worlds is once the world opens up (the beginning plateau is a very heavily scripted and hand crafted experience) the majority of the game is almost explicitly trying to GET somewhere.

[@L337M4573RK]

LoZ:BotW does, in fact, have "invisible barriers" in the form of sides of the map that will stop your forward motion completely and/or turn you around and force you back towards the center of the map. Examples of these can be found in the Gerudo Desert and the open sea to the South and East of the map. The rest of the "invisible barriers" exist in the form of a gigantic chasm around the North and West sides of the map that prevents the player from crossing it (during normal, un-modded game play).

[@themanwhosoldtheworld3284]

I didn't like it. I'm more of a linear experience games guy.

[@Dr.CaveCurinas]

Well, that's more a taste thing than a quality thing. I don't like cheese, personally but that doesn't mean that a finely-crafted cheese isn't still good.

[@metroidcypher]

@@Dr.CaveCurinas problem is botw isn't finely crafted

[@606hunter1]

Same but I still respect it. Only 3D Zelda game I never wanted to play because of the open world tho

[@FistoftheSnackBar]

I got bored, I find myself not caring about the quests or story.

[@Dr.CaveCurinas]

@@metroidcypher May I ask why you think that?

[@TARINunit9]

Here's my main beef with Breath of the Wild. It's not just that weapon durability exists. It's that weapon durability is so strict, you are disincentivized from EVER getting into a fight without the Master Sword. Either you take things slow and steady and painfully chip away at enemies with your infinite bombs, or you bite the bullet and spend valuable resources to get rid of enemies faster, feeling the clock ticking away on those powerful swords and spears you've been saving up

[@isauldron4337]

Yeah, it disentivizes attacking enemies

[@coolpika4421]

almost misheard follically challenged for a minute there

[@Kw3350]

I think this series would be better if 1) the arguments sounded less scripted, and 2) the positions weren't chosen at random because an earnest debate would be more interesting. I understand the number of topics to cover might be more limited if both parties naturally agree, but maybe you could bring in guests to provide the counter-argument.

[@rdowg]

No, it really wasnt. I get that people like to explore vast empty spaces, but the dungeons and items (You know, 80% of what makes zelda games great) sucked massively. It's a good game, and it kept me engaged until the final boss turned out to be the worst in zelda history, but it's not that great of a zelda game.

[@metroidcypher]

i think it has to do with this being most people's first open world game.

[@Kaiwala]

I can't help but feel that this episode was all over the place. The last one about difficulty in games had a very concrete for and against argument laid out, why SHOULD we have difficulty settings or why NOT. This episode's basic argument is "Is BOTW a good game" which is honestly a terrible thing to argue about, because "a good game" is inherently very subjective and hard to pin down. Just saying that this game is the "best" isn't enough, you have to point out what it's the BEST at. It's an adjective that describes basically nothing but the fact that it isn't bad, which in itself is also a very vague adjective. I'd prefer it if the argument was more concrete, like "Is BOTW a good open world game" or, more interesting, "SHOULD, botw have been an open world game?" or maybe even "Should we bother with open world games in the first place?".

[@-ZodiacPrince-]

I'll play the devil's advocate here: As someone who's logged over 700 hours across multiple Switch profiles (because they don't give you 3 save slots anymore) I think I'm somewhat of an authority on the game, therefore I'll exercise that authority to express why BotW isn't some godly Zelda game. As I've already mentioned I've had to make multiple profiles just to have more than 2 saves, one of which is blocked behind a paywall as DLC. In every past Zelda game you've had 3 save slots to use freely, alas this is no longer the case. Now you must fill out your Switch profile list just to start again without sacrificing your precious original save. Next is the lack of narrative. The game is front-loaded with narrative, but you can only access it at very specific locations. That's the problem with making a narrative-driven adventure game open world, you lose the narrative when you implement "Go anywhere" mechanics. If you go directly to the castle out the gate (something you can't do till after the plateau, which goes against their go anywhere mentality) you lose out on every bit of story this game has spread throughout the greater world. The DLC promised to fix this lacking story, but it failed and only provided snippets about the characters who you never actually meet in any tangible way. At best you only get more 5 minute memories that Link didn't even witness himself. I could go on, but I don't want to belabor this point. Let's talk about dungeons! There's nothing you could really consider a true dungeon. Shrines? No. Shrines don't provide anything of value to the player or any real challenge to speak of like any past Zelda game's dungeons. Okay, what about the Divine Beasts? Oh, those things you can beat most of without even collecting the "mandatory" map? You can clear at least the western two completely without the map or rotation gimmick. DLC? Which one? the one that's as long as a Shrine or the one that makes you do several mini-shrines at once in a gauntlet and is all about combat? The only part of the DLC that was dungeon-like was the OHO Plateau trial, but even then it lacked a lot of the charm of past games' dungeons. Vanilla only has the Castle, but even then you just rush to the top to fight Ganon, and can avoid literally all of the obstacles by climbing the outside walls. But the world's so full of fun stuff, right!? No. It isn't. It has korok poop, shrines, and random people that don't appear frequently enough. Oh, and bad assassins. If you were to ride the bike through the world you would encounter 1 person every 5 minutes. That's a long stretch of time between encounters, and it's only on roads. No people can be found prancing through fields. The only forest I remember seeing people in was the Hateno outskirts. The world is dead and empty. But the worst thing about this game is that there are never any rewards. "Hah, stupid, there's plenty of rewards, especially with the DLC!" -probably you. But that's wrong. Very wrong, in fact. Let's say you do the main campaign the way most casual playthroughs tend to and you get every spirit boon. most people would think that they were rewarded by getting neat new abilities, but think for a moment if you will: Do you get to use them freely? Can you revive indefinitely and consecutively? Can you put up a truly impenetrable defense that lasts forever? Can you fly up into the air whenever and as often as you'd like? Can you strike down a bolt of lightning during every fight? The answer to all of these questions is no. You're limited by these more than you think. You can't use these powers freely. You get 3 uses of all but Grace, and they have 5+minute cooldowns. Okay, okay, but you can't say the Wild armour set isn't a reward! You mean the armour set that starts out at a paltry 4 DEF that requires Dragon parts to fully upgrade? Yeah, helluva reward... Fine, but the DLC has some awesome rewards! Right? Let's dive into why that's definitely not the case. Let's start with Master mode. This isn't a reward, you bought a difficulty. Think about that. You paid money to get a part of the game that should have been free and in the vanilla version of the game. Okay, but the Master Trials, you get the fully powered Master Sword! Yeah, it doubles the power and uses, but it's a legendary weapon and it still breaks temporarily. It's still just a tree axe and a mining pick because it's the only weapon you can afford to waste. Okay, that's a little pessimistic, but you get upgrades to the Spirit Boons! Oh, you mean the cooldown reductions? Yeah, but they still have cooldowns. That's not a reward. Finally the Master Cycle Zero. You can't say that's not a reward! Actually, I can. With the same DLC pack you get the Ancient Horse Gear, which is immediately more useful as you can get it immediately out the gate once you leave the Plateau. You only get the bike once you already do all of the main campaign. Then there's the fact that you have to use precious resources to refuel it every six and a half minutes. 6 minutes and 30 seconds to deplete the gas tank. You never have to refill your horse! And the horse auto-paths! You can't control the bike easily at all if you wanna do mounted combat. I could go on, but this dissertation is already way too long for a fucking youtube comment, so I'll leave it here for now and watch as all of the stans try to call me an idiot because they lack critical thinking skills and can't allow someone to dislike something they like.

[@emmanueladesiyan2236]

This is more interesting than the video

[@haroldsandahl6408]

So the entire argument you have is "This game is not for me." That is fine. After you kind of go onto unrelated tangents. The story? Breath of the wild is about Zelda. This is a break from convention because usually, it is about Link and his quest to save Hyrule. Breath of the wild is really just the end of Zelda's story. Just about everything in the game focuses on her. Everything you do is about getting to the point where she can finish the fight and seal Ganon. The plot even explains the Shrines because they serve to train the player to get to the point where the story can end. I enjoyed the different take. You didn't, but that's fine. I routinely find the dungeons in Zelda games to be simple. The ideas behind them often aren't hard to get and more than anything I remember getting lost in them as a kid. The puzzles weren't hard, I just struggled to remember how to get to where I needed to go. This experience continues with the divine beasts. It isn't hard to figure out what I need to do, just sometimes it is hard to get to the place. The shrines are different. They can be puzzle focused and harder than most dungeons because there are so many. That allows difficulty changes since not every player will reach every shrine. While some are frustrating, others gave me actual satisfaction when I figured out how to complete them. Your argument that the world isn't full of fun stuff is subjective. If I enjoy running through the world and derive fun in the solitude than that, by its nature of being a subjective experience, disproves your argument in my case. But does that mean you're wrong, no! It just means that what you find fun is different from what other people find fun. Your evaluation of what is in the world is correct, you're just applying your personal biases as to what it means. As you continue in the final parts. Your bit about rewards is dumb. It basically boils down to "I did something and I don't like what I got." Your argument on not being rewarded is predicated that the reward is unconditional at all times. Just because you are not satisfied with the reward doesn't mean it isn't a reward. The entire section reads like a kid complaining about getting free ice cream because he didn't like the flavor. Does this mean I love the game and think its the best thing ever? Not really. It was a fun experience that I might continue playing or might not. You can dislike it all you want, just how about you sound less entitled when you do. (About the rewards. The rest was a good critique)

[@Jp-yd2ke]

Sorry I didn't read all that... but did you say that you played over 700 hours of a video game even though you disliked it?

[@DarknessEmpireLeader626]

Here for comments.

[@Vintodrimmer]

For some reason this makes me very nostalgic for the Gabe + Yahtzee thingies.

[@lordmalachi6]

Am I the only one that felt this was incredibly dry and uninteresting to listen to?

[@Paragon231]

No, you're not. I kept waiting for this to get interesting. No luck.

[@hoooplah]

As one of the few people who both played and didn't like BOTW this wasn't very helpful to me. Yahtzee immediately implies he agrees with the prompt and then still basically out debates Jack whilst mostly making jokes. So I neither got a satisfying confirmation of my beliefs nor a convincing counter argument to them...

[@hybridial]

Yes, Nintendo showed tremendous courage finally taking Zelda in the open world direction about 5 years too later and after dozens of games had shred the idea completely of any novelty, appeal or ground to tread. And also, trying to make any argument for x game that "this is the greatest game ever" is I think a stance that isn't possible to take seriously, that shouldn't be the basis of the argument, just "is this game great?" Then you can certainly have a debate. And yeah from my point of view Yahtzee had the easier task, he wasn't putting the game on an impossible pedestal. And certainly he didn't have do to much to convince me because the open world thing was dead to me long before Breath of the Wild made it out, that and it coming after a Zelda game (Skyward Sword) that I thought was a massive flop and did a terrible amount of damage to my feelings for the series. This wasn't the best debate though, there was a lot more to say on the open world vs focused design argument that wasn't remotely explored here, things that I think are more important than the argument of whether a single game is any good or not.

[@paradigm_sh1ft]

I liked this one way more than the first, because there was some actual back and forth, with good points on both sides. My reason for it thinking it's great is that it is incredibly simple, yet incredibly complex at the same time. It makes it a perfect blend of accessible AND deep gameplay. The game presents you with the tools upfront, gives you solid challenges to test your ability with them, but if you want to, you can find work-arounds to either skip puzzles, or simplify them. The amount of puzzles you can cheese with stasis is fantastic!

[@epicgamer2727]

As Jim Sterling so rightly called, BOTW is a very good 7/10.

[@Togotzi]

Jim sterling did it for views

[@24boss2424]

There were so many arguments that yatzee could have made, he obviously loves the game a lot and couldn’t come up with a lot to say bad about it, here are some faults that I thought could have been talked about -enemy variety, I only remember about 4 unique types of enemies + 2 mini bosses -every dungeon and shrine looking the same -like 20 shrines being a “test shrine” -weapon mechanic (this is something I liked, but I know many didn’t) -the ability to skip stuff because you could just go anywhere -a lot of the world you can explore, but there is low incentive to do so, sure it looks cool, but what do you get out of it? Another major test of strength shrine? A sword that will break after 4 hits? The chance to fight your 20th lynel? -lack of items, and with this physics engine I could see ball and chain being cool -on that note lack of item verity only 2 types of swords 1 type of bow That’s all I can think of rn, but I’m sure theirs plenty more faults in this game, it’s a good game, but I don’t know about the best ever. I don’t think their can be a best game, due to all the types of games, just like their can’t be a best movie.

[@yotamravid3159]

3:20 c'mon Yahtzee the Just Cause series is a perfect counter-example here. Breath Of The Wild doesn't get close to the beautifully absurd freedom and dimension Just cause gets into. In Just Cause you can take over the map from the get-go, travel it upwards downwards and to every side, destroy every enemy base, and get to the giant flotilla before the dictator finishes scratching his mustache

[@nawalpandey718]

You can do this in breath of the wild too.

[@TheGoron3000]

@@nawalpandey718 Yeah but you are locked in a tutorial before you can do anything

[@aem472]

The not-so-secret secret to Zelda games is that they were always fairly open world. Opening up the sides of mountains and tops of trees to explore was fine for a diversion but didn't really enhance the core feeling of exploration and took development resources away from the more interesting puzzles that normally populate Zelda games. Additionally, the metroid-vania style of backtracking (and rediscovering old areas or finally getting something that has been taunting you) is completely lost when every area is accessible from the get-go. Similarly, accessing everything in any order means tiered progression that isn't just higher numbers is basically impossible. If nothing is gated by items, then everything is gated by numbers so when you get to a new area instead of feeling clever you just feel like you have big numbers (which is not inherently bad but we have enemies for that). This is not to say that there were no virtues to open world system. Particularly, the ability to explore areas that were too dangerous for you was fun, but overall I prefer a well curated plot and puzzle exploration to free roaming bland storytelling. I hope future Zelda games go for somewhat of a mix (perhaps keeping some of the open world systems but toned down and with more progression linked to the storytelling).

[@Pallysilverstar]

Breath of the Wild, while a great game was definitely flawed in many ways. I will admit that it is the truest sense of the term open world but because of that, none of the quests interpolated with each other. The only side quests that did anything was the hero quests and I guess building the town. Everything else was minor and only gave you slight upgrades. For example, a slightly better horse, or a slightly better weapon which would break and be irrelevant at some point anyway. The shrines were the only things that gave any real long term benefits since the armor wasnt that interchangeable because you had to wear what would keep you alive in the regions. The map was also super empty with some regions having no NPCs at all in them unless you count the Koroks which I count more as a collectible than an actual NPC. As for replayability, I'm someone who goes for the hundred percent whenever I play a game and did so with BotW completing every shrine and finding all the seeds and besides being super repetitive as I played I cant imagine going back and doing it again. Even someone who doesnt go for the hundred percent probably wont have that much of a different experience on subsequent playthroughs cause they will probably still go to the same areas and do the same things since there are only a few regions that arent annoying to explore and even fewer that has actual story factors in them. Overall BotW was a great first attempt for Nintendo making an open world game and was better than some other ones. But they still have a ways to go in many areas.

[@aurin_komak]

I hope they fix everything in BotW 2

[@Azerinth]

The appeal is in the personal investment of player choice. That sword I struggled to kill that cyclops to claim is significant to me, even though there are likely other cyclopses with the same sword or chests with that sword in it, the memories of how I attained that one particular sword through skill and tenancity engender value and accomplishment. It's similar to Yahtzee's comments on Skyrim, every player will have a different experience and each will matter to that player for that personal uniqueness.

[@allisonwatson3837]

Breath of the wild was great.. But twilight princess will always be my favorite for story and characters.

[@themambawarrior2290]

2:55 "or even just a skill cap" BoTW does have that, in a sort of manner: As an example, in his video on BoTW, Joseph Anderson showed how, directly after leaving the Great Plateau, he headed south (or south-west, I'm not sure), and when he did, he ran into a Lynel. He kept trying to fight it, over and over again, to the point where he apparently could dodge things near-perfectly, but in the end, that didn't matter because literally every weapon he had broke when he was fighting it once he got to that point, and there were literally no other weapons that were accessible to him in the area. So, there was a cap, based on the player's level (or at least their weapon's level). BoTW does seem very open, but the point Jack was making about how it's the first absolutely open world game was guaranteed to have a flaw, and the flaw is stating that it does not have a restriction on where you can go based on you being low level.

[@demigod5598]

"Breath Of The Wild doesn’t have any invisible walls" 2:02 Me laughing but Mount Agaat tho

[@mistergrool3941]

"Oh, this video looks interesting. I don't usually watch the Escapist and don't really know the hosts but I should give it a-" >Jack Packard "AAAIIIIIDS"

[@ReboyGTR]

Two words: *Weapon durability*

[@aurin_komak]

_"If the weapons aren't made of glass, it'll be great"_ -Me, on _BotW 2_

[@LithmusEarth]

10:29-10:56 this could describe the questboard-style D&D game i'm currently making so very well. It makes you think, if you are making the right choice, instead of following a careful story like Curse of Strahd (the last one we played), and how much you should be faffing about in the woods.

[@firstnamelastname816]

>Was The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Really That Good? Yes

[@aurin_komak]

Absolutely yes

[@timm7643]

I thought it was okay when I first started it. After a few hours of play it became my favorite game of all time. The amount of ways you can tackle any obstacle is what makes it a truely unique experience.

[@mudaman7049]

I personally think it would be better if they chose topics jack and Yahtzee actually disagreed on and had them argue that, then they would be more passionate about the debate and would be able to script it a bit better

[@PewPewBeets]

Did Yahtzee get his citizenship? If so, welcome to the United States of America.

[@ThePa1riot]

Sgt.Beets Yeah he’s at least lived here for a bit, and was probably a citizen for at least some of that since he made an immigration joke in his Steam World 2 review.

[@GreatWightSpark]

he got married a few years ago, has a kid now.

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

@@GreatWightSpark yahtzee got married?? Really?

[@CrazyFlyingMonk]

at 10:40 he pointed out what makes botw shine the commute is an engaging part of the game where you can embark on a million different stories built by both you and the creator or if you observe your environment you can find stories hidden by the devs like the lone stand and lucky shot at the base of death mountain or the massacre by fire wiz robes as the villagers fled because the nearby watch tower was burned before it could warn them of the calamity or if you dont feel up to the you can just go on a monster killing rampage or just cut out most of the commute by teleporting everywhere

[@roborampage1414]

Just sitting here waiting for the flame war, don't mind me.

[@ReillyQuizzle]

After watching a few of these (my knew favourite series other than Zero Punctuation) I finally realized that this is, in fact, THE Jack Packard from the hit film "Space Cop". For the Yahtzee fans who used to watch "Let's Drown Out" surely you remember how often he would fanboy out over Red Letter Media; those beautiful Milwaukee boys. How long until Yahtzee is a guest star on "Best of the Worst"?

[@Mikx100]

Everything interesting in botw happened 100 years ago, you woke up too late.

[@aurin_komak]

Post-apocalypse is cool

[@ArtemisWasHere]

10:48 and that is where botw succeeds where all others fail. Firstly it’s much more organic, you aren’t looking at points placed on your map for a interesting place to go, you must spot those points for yourself, scoping them out with the shiekah slate and slapping a pin on it. And travelling to that place is just as interesting as the place itself, if not more so, the world itself is so masterfully crafted with interesting terrain and things to do you’ll likely get far off track on your way to that point you marked down.

[@ThisThingEaten]

You can tell Yahtzee is having a legit hard time with his arguments.

[@dr.perplexed6291]

Somehow they are both struggling with their arguments, even though saying "BoTW is good" is so incredibly easy to establish.

[@imrangr1]

Actually Yahtzee brought legit arguments. He is trying to do in a funny way which looks clumsy. "open world has been done to death", "It's mostly empty without carefully crafted narrative" etc

[@kevinr417]

My personal opinion of Breath of the Wild in a nutshell: loved it to death the first time through, but see no reason to replay it any time soon. Discovering things was what kept me hooked during my playthrough, but I feel like that's going to be hard to recapture. But hey, that initial playthrough made me feel like a kid again, stumbling across stuff and sharing tips with a friend who was also playing through the game. We agreed not to look things up online and only shared information with each other, so it felt very much like interacting with other gamers when I was in grade school. Overall, that playthrough was probably the best gaming experience I've had in the last twenty years. Not perfect by any means, not by a long shot, but what it did well, it did extremely well.

[@FunZies.]

"I mean, is freedom all that great anyway?" LMAO! I laughed way too hard at this. Ridiculous. XD

[@mikerhoa]

This is one is a major improvement over the last. You guys are really rounding into form. Looking forward to more!

[@Blix11]

Yahtzee: "There is a word for it, an open world!" That's two words, Yahtzee. XD

[@g_b0mb-869]

3:17 May the Father of Understanding guide you, Yahtzee

[@toyotatruckmonth4155]

Today is the day Yahtzee will get murdered by an angry mob

[@theshadowling1]

On the open world thing, what about Fallout 3? I could go anywhere on that map from level 1. I just might get eaten by monsters when I try it.

[@murphy7801]

Really think breath of wild is pretty dull plot wise. Enermies respawn based on time which is such an arbitrary way of doing. Weapons break which means you have to farm them which grind. All the sub dungeons suck compared to fully thought out one. Just alot going places slowly for generally little pay off. If exploration had more pay off generally be more rewarding.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

Going over each point myself for a moment. The "True Open World" point: I agree that this is a really interesting factoid, and it definitely is a good one. The "Scared by open worlds" point: I also agree with this thought that.. My first Zelda was Wind Waker, and so the idea of what open world elements it has being tied together by a strong, linear, emotional narrative. I also liked Skyward Sword because of that same fact that its narrative was tightly knit, and I loved that its overworld areas were built almost as though they were part of the dungeon, with puzzles to solve in order to find your way around and reach new areas. The "American" point: I don't have anything specific to say about that. The "Overdone Story" point: I rather like the Zelda Fairy Tale, but I point you back to Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. Both of these had some twists and turns along the way, and the story begins with a much more personal Conflict. The Hero of Wind goes off because of his own courage and dedication to his little sister, The Hero of the Skies goes off to save Zelda because they are childhood friends and possibly lovers (I ship it). The Hero of the Wilds goes off on his adventure because the king tells him he has to defeat the Calamity. Honestly it would've been more interesting to see what happened 100 years ago firsthand rather than just through cutscenes, our hero constantly staying at Zelda's side and trying to reconcile their role as her closest friend, but also the creature that she sees as representing her great failure to fulfill her "Destiny" The "Gameplay as Narrative" point: This is a pretty good point and I do like that there's this "It's the journey" style... But I point back to the overdone story point that I feel like having a more personal connection to the worded narrative would have been nice. And unlike games like Skyrim, because you're following the Zelda Fairy Tale, you can't exactly go off and make your own story up entirely. The "Properly Constructed" point: This is my own point in comparing Breath to Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. There's nothing quite like a properly constructed narrative to string together your moment to moment gameplay. To use a totally different game as a related example. the 2012 Tomb Raider strung together all of its random gameplay moments together with the idea that this is the Origin of The Great Tomb Raider, and with the constant need to survive by finding new things. The "Embrace the Ambition" point: WE can only hope BoTW 2 will embrace the ambition. This is more of an opinion than a point, but I think that they have all the pieces in place to be able to take what bade BoTW great, and then polish it to an ever greater shine. Thematic Replays: That's kinda cheesy because as Yahtzee already said, Emergent Gameplay and the idea of replaying and finding an interesting/enriched experience is interesting, but not unique to BoTW. Overall I'm glad they reinvented the wheel, but they left some good things behind in the process.

[@Cezkarma]

Breath of the Wild is the most overrated game I have ever played. It's a really good game, but it absolutely does not deserve the pedestal it was put on. Here's a hot take, if the Zelda franchise and Nintendo were unknown before BotW, people would have been like "yeah it's an awesome game! Really lacking in a few areas though" and nothing else.

[@aurin_komak]

Breath of the Wild is my favourite game. I'd say it's not overrated, but it isn't by any means perfect. Open world games have often problems that make them boring and uninteresting. BotW fixed nearly all of them, and in my opinion, deserves the praise it has got :)

[@CanadianBaconPwnage]

@@aurin_komak One hundred percent agree. It's one of my favorite games of all time, but there are PLENTY of imperfections and missed opportunities. That said, the things that are bad or underwhelming in the game don't detract from the things that are brilliant. I spent hours with my roommate where we were both gushing about our play experience, while also lamenting the things we wish the game had done better. I hope the sequel builds on everything the first game did while carefully "fixing" what was wrong with the first game. (Anti-Climactic final boss as just one).

[@aurin_komak]

@@CanadianBaconPwnage at least it's confirmed that Ganon will be a hooman again

[@TrixyTrixter]

na na na Ocarina of time is the most overrated game. not saying its bad but it is way overrated.

[@aellalee4767]

I'm not a fan of open world, due to the commute issues mentioned and it's not my favourite. But I do like BOTW, I felt very melancholy about wandering around seeing the ruins of the Temple of Time and Hyrule Castle, thinking about places I've gone through in past games. So it had major feels, especially seeing the Rito and Zora existing at the same time. Makes me sad and wonder what happened that they weren't in Wind Waker. Had good nostalgia value for me.

[@15oClock]

Here's my two cents on the matter: I don't even own a Nintendo, so I can't really say anything.

[@dylankornberg4892]

The argument Yahtzee makes about how when Zelda games climb out from under the shadow of the standard Zelda story, usually while attempting some kind of continuity, makes for the best Zelda games, is I think the strongest argument he makes. I love Breath of the Wild, but no game I’ve ever played quite made me feel how Majora’s Mask did. It’s haunting, genuinely scary, and yet all held together with the story of a tragic outcast (skull kid). And the time mechanics in Majora’s Mask are, I think, the coolest mechanics in any N64 era game, and are among the coolest of any game ever. The three day countdown to the end of the world matched with the pre-established rules of the ocarina of time is GENIUS. Although I probably had more fun for a longer time with BOTW, I think at the end of the day Majora’s Mask will always be my favorite. And it’s all because Nintendo completely abandoned the classic “plot” structure

[@eliorlev4300]

i actually really like the pacing of this new show :)

[@Conahawk]

Jack says that you can go anywhare at anytime but you can't. You need armor for areas like the volcano land and the ice mountains. I think the biggest problems with BOTW is that the wepons brake to quick and your default movment speed is to slow to feel fun