The Missing 411 Cases We Couldn't Solve

[@noahshaq97]

Will never understand splitting up from the group. If something happens by yourself that’s one thing, but to diverge from the perceived safety of a large group to go at it alone is a mind numbingly stupid move. Start together finish together.

[@loridavis5699]

Cocky egomaniac

[@melissacoulter708]

Several of these cases actually just have the missing person going around the corner within 100ft of the other person and disappear. One actually was a woman in Yellow Stone that just wanted to get a closer picture and her husband was just on the same path but was just a little way up higher(there was a winding path going down hill).

[@holliecrawford2647]

Yeah loads of the cases are like the person seen them go around the corner maybe 20 seconds before .. then gone

[@HumansMakeAIArt]

If someone is experiencing overwhelming emotions, being around other people can make it more difficult to self-regulate. You're right that sticking together is smarter, but if you can't understand _why_ someone would split up, I can only assume emotions are a foreign concept for you.

[@iceman22m]

Me personally when I go out into the wilderness, I can see how being around a group of humans could become very taxing. Sometimes you just need to get away from your worries. There's any number of instances where two people can become aggravated with one another over the most trivial of things.

[@iceman22m]

@ 27:23 I have to disagree with you here, I think someone's grandmother would be about four times more effective at attempting to find their grandson.

[@laylav2494]

I agree

[@waymire01]

I actually had personal contact with the concerned grandma (I ran a citizen information group in the area she lived) in the Vallow/Daybell child murder case and let me tell you.. she NEVER gave up. If it wasn't for her those monsters would have gotten away with everything.

[@melissaharris3389]

Many indigenous families and communities in Canada would agree with you as volunteer searches often find bodies of the missing which the RCMF cannot be bothered to even try looking for properly.

[@sallyfeschuk5771]

Canadian here. Can confirm. I'd laugh if they weren't so pathetic and ineffectual. It's actually embarrassing.

[@Kari.F.]

He was very obviously being sarcastic there, so I think you can feel pretty certain that he would agree with you.

[@makenzierose2099]

The idea of being one of the last people to interact with someone who completely disappears is haunting. Imagining being Garret’s father or the friends Jim went skiing with (or literally in anyone who saw the people before they disappeared) is horrifying. How often do they think about how things could have ended differently if they had done something slightly different? That’s got to weigh really heavily on those people.

[@AthenaBaucum]

Not the same, but me and my friend were the last people to see a kid from my highschool and his cousin before he got into a car accident and died. We lived in the same neighborhood and me and my friend didn't really like him so we said something snarky about him and he got in an accident like 20 minutes later and died after being in the hospital for an hour. It was a very haunting experience for me and I deeply regret saying mean anything that day.

[@frysebox1]

@@AthenaBaucum lets hope he'll accept the apology when he comes to haunt you

[@-Ghostess]

My roommate was one of the last people to talk to Joleen Cummings before her disappearance and murder by her con artist coworker. And was the check out clerk for the murderer and her boyfriend in the time between the murder and when they disposed of Joleen's car. He had to come home for mental health for the rest of the day when it was pointed out and the sheriff's office reviewed the store tape with him and the managers. It really messed with his head for several days.

[@pamp4960]

Yes i call it the "What if" cause we all look back when things go bad.

[@maxelldenomie6131]

Yes...even a one minute difference in leaving the house makes the difference...

[@EvelynnEleonore]

As a German, I think I have a pretty good idea of why Germans go missing a lot in national parks- Hiking here is really, really safe. Unless you're talking about going up in the alps or off the beaten path, being out in the 'wilderness' here could give people- especially people who love to hike, and would go do that in the national parks- an unexpected confidence in their ability to tackle more challenging hikes out in the north-american wild. I grew up hiking, and before I read some books by american hikers, I would've probably made the same mistake coming over!

[@blackk_rose_]

as a german, i agree. also, germans are notoriously underpacking when it comes to provisions during hikes (likely because you're never that far from a town or restaurant or supermarket no matter where you are here). hearing stories about the american wilderness with all its predators really makes me realise how safe we are over here. the most dangerous wild animal in most german regions is literally a boar. also no nutjobs with guns everywhere you look

[@Souledex]

I think they mean people of German heritage, which frankly is like 30-40% of the US and kinda just means from the midwest, so it always seems kinda silly to point out especially since post ww1 most people don't really have deep heritage or common cultural practices with Germany in the US. But that is very interesting to learn!.

[@MrSiren52]

@@Souledex Yes it's the most common ethnic heritage among Americans. it would be more significant to the missing 411 if those that went missing were *not* of German decent.

[@FallacyBites]

The story of the Death Valley Germans is horrifying. They made the best decisions they could with the information they had---but they were used to a place where settlements are MUCH closer together.

[@EvelynnEleonore]

@@FallacyBites yeah, that seems to be the exact kind of thing i'm talking about. Fuck, that's sad.

[@MrTigerlore]

I’ve hiked around the mountains in Vail Valley at night. The lights of Vail are such an easy reference to figure out where you are. In fact, I have rarely gotten nervous because the lights of Vail, the highway, and even the snow grooming vehicles on the ski hills are a constant reference point. The semi-trucks are also loud and give you an audible reference point for the highway.

[@glamdawling]

Based on the evidence presented, I think it is Wendigoon who is responsible for these disappearances.

[@PopeOf420]

I have confirming evidence to point out the very same facts.... Wendigoon appears to be our man at large, let's do a man hunt.. shhh.... Be berry berry quiet, it's rabbit hunting season yo, and Elmer gonna Fud up yo Goon from Wendy's, Mister responsible for these disappearances.. Tsk’- Tsk’ ohhhh the wendig’-humanity-’oon. 😳🫡🤫🤫🫠😂🤣🫵😶‍🌫️🤏🔥💨 Don't mind me, I'm just stoned like a biblical whore, so don't smite the messenger;) 😅🤦😎🆒

[@joshuadevey881]

Do you mean a wendigo or @Wendigoon?

[@vincentrodriguez7797]

​@@joshuadevey881yes

[@BluesAuditoryBoogaloo]

he is from Appalachia, so he has the advantage

[@weronikadubiel751]

I agree 100%

[@Perepeteia]

Idk if anyone mentioned it but Tatiana and Tanya are the same name in ru, Tatiana is a full form and Tanya is a shorter version you'd use when talking to a child or - in a casual setting - to someone u r already very familiar w(a friend, a relative, sometimes maybe an old acquaintance). So Tatiana is Tanya

[@raeoverhere923]

That was my thought too. Alexandra Trusova, the Olympic figure skater, is also known as Sasha Trusova, because Sasha is the diminuitive of Alexandra in ru.

[@maryisbleeding]

was about to comment the same ^

[@Lizzybaby30500]

⁹

[@Talia.Ryn710]

Lol i jusr commented the same and then saw your comment

[@AshLilyNeko]

interesting I am not familiar with Russian language and didnt know this! So it's like calling someone named Catherine as Kathy or Katy. cool!

[@ReconPro]

Me alone at a National Park, at 2 pm, without checking the weather, or personal locator beacon, near a body of water, in an area where others have gone missing, etc *"Mr. Paulides, I don't feel so good"*

[@victorianmagnet9308]

"Oh look, a boulder field!"

[@torliebenfels5618]

After discovering your mother's maiden name is Schlughzenberger

[@ReconPro]

"I'm also of German descent, occupation is doctor, IQ of 147, didn't bring a map of the area, did not let anyone kniw of my loaction or when I should be back, my point of sepration was an hour ago, etc"

[@torliebenfels5618]

Woke up that morning outside of the tent with a puncture wound on the back of my neck

[@ReconPro]

​@@victorianmagnet9308Don't forget Granite!

[@KibuFox]

I lived in Salt Lake City when Garret went missing. I remember hearing one theory about his vanishing that suggested he'd wandered off to fish a stream coming out of Cuberant Lake, and became disoriented. He wandered around some looking for the trail once more, only to have it start to rain. It's theorized that he took shelter in an old mine (that area is littered with them), and fell through an open shaft.

[@DC-fx4zz]

If these mines were this common, wouldn’t they have been searched?

[@lolitagrant6751]

It's a "theory." Speculation, as to, what could've happened. At this point, that's all that's left.

[@problems3485]

@@ItsJam3zdrones? Although I forgot how long ago that was

[@ItsJam3z]

@@problems3485 I mean yeah, they might have been able to use drones. But the mines were never thoroughly searched so we will never know what happened most likely.

[@Kingfish179]

Unlikely considering he left the lake because his wet socks were bothering him and wanted to change them due to the discomfort.

[@CombinedProductions0]

18:53 last time i went skiing, which was also the first time i went skiing, on my first run down the smallest slope, i managed to flip head over heels and speared myself on my ski pole - thankfully the blunt side, but directly to my heart. let's just say i didn't go down the slope again

[@henrystewart7365]

I was considering someday trying skiing, and you have convinced me to not ever do so. Just like how these 411 stories have made me never want to go camping or hiking again.

[@cctaryn576]

holy shit, glad you came out of that okay

[@karengibson5418]

Oh man! Glad you survived and here to tell your story!

[@orionpax21]

I think one thing that gets overlooked, or maybe just not adequately addressed, when talking about these kinds of cases, is that people just don't act logically much of the time, especially under duress/stress/etc. We all try to explain possible behavior of these people in these situations, but the simple truth is, the vast majority of the time, other people just don't act in a way most of us would consider logical. And that's not even taking into account panic, anxiety, mental health issues, whatever. We try to explain behavior because we desperately need to believe we are rational creatures; we simply are not. There are still going to be plenty of cases that aren't explained by this, but the truth is, we'll never actually know what happened in most of these situations purely because we are not the person that was there.

[@andrewstanley8945]

I agree with all your points. Well said

[@chriswhite2151]

Put simply, a lot of us are idiots. And even those who are not, can easily fail to realize that we are constantly in a life or death situation in the wilderness. Ten minutes of daydreaming at work, no one even notices. Ten minutes of daydreaming while hiking, you could be utterly lost.

[@kitbotbot4778]

@jeffborders2956 OMG, I know! Well put! As much as I was to go hiking as I live near Yosemite Im scared to death. lololololol ;laughing but serious!

[@patriciareid437]

When I lived in Florida, I spent much of my time fishing. I lived in-between 2 big lakes on the East Space coast Pkwy. This was 1980 or 81. I often went deep into the woods because I loved nature. Once, I went a little too far, and found myself staring into the swamp. I felt a strange pull, to come see. Thankfully I resisted. It would have been the end of me and NO ONE would have had any idea what happened to me. I don't know what that was. Maybe similar to being drawn to a cliffs edge.

[@Princess_Celestia_]

Back sometime before 1990, my grandfather had an employee go missing in Saudi Aradia. He got back from the States and checked in to company HQ, picked up the mail for the crew at the Rig he was supposed to go to and got into a company truck and left to the North, was supposed to head to an oil rig north of their base of operations to relieve another worker and drop off the mail. It was a 4 hour drive into the desert but by night fall he had yet to showed up. The next morning, my gramps called Saudi Aramco and initiated an air search and for 3 days they searched the areas to the north, east and west that he could feasibly get to with the fuel he had but found no sign of him. So they shifted to searching to the south, into the Rub' al Khali. Groups of 3 men, 2 Americans and an Arab who spoke both English and Arabic loaded into trucks with extra fuel, rations and water where dispatched to search the south. One of the trucks ran into a camel caravan, the search party's Arab spoke with the caravan leader and described the truck to him. He told them he saw that truck a few hours south. They found him there, dead under the company truck. At the time no one knew how or why he drove out into the Rub' al Khali, it was a mystery until the company's investigation turned up that he had gone to see a doctor while he was State side where he received a cancer diagnoses. Apparently, he decided to end it all but make it look like a wrongful death, like he had gotten lost in the desert so his wife could sue the company for a bunch of money. At least that's my Gramp's theory on what happened.

[@loremipsum303]

When I was younger, 12 or so, my family went camping in a state forest with my cousins and some of their friends. While my younger brother and I were exploring the trails with another kid, I saw my dad through the trees, gesturing angrily for me to follow him as he walked further into the woods. It was very much him, wearing his favorite shirt and his workout glasses. My brother and the kid didn’t see him, but my brother believed me. We tried not to make our dad angry when we could avoid it, but the kid wanted to go back. We watched him leave the woods and get pretty close to camp before we crossed through the trees to the trail dad was on and followed it to the end, a lakeside beach. He wasn’t anywhere. We started looking around to see where he could have gone when my dad, in a different shirt and his reading glasses, stormed down the trail behind us and started shouting. He’d been at camp the whole time, and was livid we’d sent that kid back alone to go down a path he hadn’t approved of ahead of time. Later that week, my cousin and I had to bolt up a sandy cliff-thing for a half a mile or so to escape from some weird guy who was following us, so my brother just chalked it up to me not getting a good look at the man we followed through the thick trees and actually seeing that weird stalker, but I know what I saw. Whatever we followed, it looked just like my dad. I still can’t explain it, but I’m glad we stopped going there.

[@Yeezy4Prezzy]

Idk if this story is true but it gave me chills. Perhaps a wendigo ?

[@leahtv7778]

Whatever it was takes form of the familiar in order to better lure victims. You are so lucky your actual dad called you back

[@Dripping-Liquidity]

I was never into the strange phenomena and didn’t know missing 411 at the time but I used to go out alone into the woods in North Bend WA at night with little to no gear. I hiked snow lake (where there was a missing 411 case 1 year later) and reached the lake at Dusk. I was exploring around the lake, there were a few people here but I went to a spot where I didn’t see anyone. Suddenly down from the valley way off trail I could have sworn my best friend was calling me by my Japanese name. I yelled back in response and walked towards the call but was weirded out because he doesn’t even call me by that, I just assumed he was doing that to get my attention. I also realized he hates hiking and he wouldn’t have been there anyways. I heard my name get called again and this time it was louder and I knew I was not hallucinating. I ran out of there and for the last two miles of the hike back to my car I hiked in complete darkness. The entire event was extremely strange

[@jwatercrane]

​@@Yeezy4Prezzytotal horse shit

[@Zeunknown1234]

Sounds like some child kidnapper

[@photobombr]

I love how you guys are open to admitting oversight or being wrong and often actually drop revisions and have a open door policy for critique. My favorite "Pseudoscience Channel" 👌🏾

[@deerichardz]

I once asked Aidan what he though of Paulides, his response was he thought Dave was an honest man, that gets things wrong oO

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

​@@deerichardz which is a bit of a surprise since he seems to have made up the Stacey Arras lens cap and that one guy that disappeared while hunting with friends being an alcoholic.

[@deerichardz]

@@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD That would be the Aaron Hedges case. There are so many more instances where Paulides is caught lying.

[@thewitchishammered]

@@deerichardz I think most reasonable people would be quite restrained in their public opinions on Paulides considering: A) you use "his material" in videos and B) Paulides is known to be uncharitable to people using "his content."

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

@@thewitchishammered Deeri doesn't use Paulides' work and neither does Lore Lodge unless it's the only source or he specifically calls out that he has to use it for some reason.

[@platonicvulpine]

Honestly, I can 100% see Jim just starting off, getting lost, and continuing on 'cos "he's on an adventure". I know plenty people like that and I know they would easily bumble into some very dangerous situations without realising it.

[@platonicvulpine]

Tatiana and Tanya are the same name lmao

[@brysonloko2456]

my theories are his friends killed him over there then went to the cabin and lied or maybe the phone call was for him to tell them he was going to explore and thats how he died.

[@RandallMartin-zx6yd]

SO. HOW. MANY. TIMES. HAVE. YOU. BEEN. RESCUED. I. BET. A. BUNCH. YOU. SOUND. LIKE. YOUR. SPEAKING. FRO. EXPERIENCE

[@brysonloko2456]

@@RandallMartin-zx6yd wtf are you going on about

[@RandallMartin-zx6yd]

@@brysonloko2456 MR KNOW IT. ALL. AT. THE. LORE LODGE. SAID. NOTHING. STRANGE. GOING. ON. JUST. OTHER. PEOPLE. TAKING. OR. KILLING. THE. 411 MISSING. AND. I. SAY. BULLSHIT. HUMANS. WOULD. STILL. THE. GUNS. BOWS. BACKPACKS THEY. WOULD TAKE. SOMETHING. AND. TO. TAKE. A. KID. OR. GROWN UP. WITH. OTHER PEOPLE. SO. CLOSE. THEY WOULD. HAVE. BEEN. CAUGHT. BY. KNOW. AND. IT'S. ALSO. STRANGE. THAT. 90% OF. THE. MISSING. GO. MISSING. IN. NATIONAL. PARKS. THAT'S. WTF. I'M GOING ON. ABOUT. DICK SMACK

[@slyguythreeonetwonine3172]

23:53 I'm a son of a once adamant hunter, hunted quite a bit myself as a younger man. One of the absolutely most gut wrenching situations for a hunter, is knowing you fouled your shot, and you've caused unnecessary suffering. You are correct that it is a sign of respect. I've only done it once. Thankfully, I didn't wound that severely. The next weekend the same deer walked out on me and I nailed my shot. It wasn't till I collected my father and we came upon the deer that we realized..... It's been shot twice? What? Then after a few minutes of talking it out came to the conclusion it was in fact the same deer I had missed the previous weekend. Only time I've ever done that, and I almost didn't go back hunting after that. I can't describe the amount of shame I felt.

[@cleanserene6330]

That deer had a death wish lol "PLEASE finish the job!"

[@AP-qc2ll]

I think that the animals would prefer that you didn't take their life either. I would not want to be hunted, wounded or have my life taken and no living creature would want any of this either.

[@davemccage7918]

@@AP-qc2llAny wild animal that died during a hunt, even the botched ones, had a 1000 times better life than every animal that lived on a factory farm. If you’re anti-hunting then you’d better be a vegan or you’re an incredible hypocrite. Even if you’re a vegan I hate to inform you, but deer get eaten alive by bears, wolves, coyotes, cougars and wolverines every day. The deer that survive becoming prey get to succumb to a slow death from illness or starvation. Every animal is going to die one way or another, the deer that get shot are the lucky ones….

[@davemccage7918]

Hunters get stereotyped as hillbilly, rednecks that have a callous disregard for nature, when in reality every hunter I’ve met is an advocate for wildlife conservation. Ironically, hunting has become more of a rich man’s activity in modern times, so the image of a trailer park boy trekking through the woods with a shotgun while chugging keystone light is far from reality.

[@Souledex]

@@AP-qc2ll I would rather die swiftly than starve to death - which is the alternative unless you want to restrain or biologically control the mating practices of every wild animal via AI and ecological foresight. I don't hunt but that's a dumb argument, especially given how most animals are farmed - hunting is actually the most ethical way to source most meat.

[@bigmateria2871]

In my opinion, the one particularly incomprehensible similarity shared by many Missing 411 cases, is despite how massive, thorough, professionally organized and well equipped the initial search and rescue efforts can become, how often they end up just finding nothing, no missing person, no body, or even any viable evidence, despite their valiant efforts... And then, some months or even years later, some unassuming individual or group of hikers hunters, or campers will suddenly happen upon some case breaking evidence or even the missing ones remains, seemingly at random. In cases such as this, obvious questions arise, where the hell were the missing ones during the time between the initial search efforts and when the evidence or body was found? What were they doing in that time? How had they completely eluded the massive search efforts? All of the answers to which are very likely to be as confusing and disturbing as they are horrifying.

[@evanlogan3595]

I mean, dense wilderness is dense; get covered by plants or leaf-litter/end up in an odd place and people could get within a couple metres of you and not notice.

[@dianeinsertlastnamehere7296]

Whenever that happens, I tend to assume that they were murdered and that the body was dumped there some time later to make it seem as if it was a death due to exposure. That being said, many of the bodies mentioned by Aydan were at extremely difficult positions to access, so usually that theory gets debunked with Missing 411 cases.

[@LilyoftheLake14]

​@@evanlogan3595​ What about the many cases where thorough grid searches are done, specifically looking in any and all dense brush or places that could be hiding a body? And I'm specifically referring to the grid searches done where each person is spread out by, maybe 10-20 ft (3.1-6.1 meters) depending on the terrain and density of any trees, bushes, etc... Not only that, but in many of these types of missing persons cases, grid searches are done over the same areas of interest multiple times. Although, before grid searches are done, there's the initial hasty searches of the trail or area the missing person was in, usually done 1st by people with the missing person before they call authorities and then a 2nd one done by authorities when they 1st get to the area. Then after that there are the general ground searches done by authorities, and possible air searches. Grid searches are done for 2 reasons after the initial searches turn up nothing: 1, to gather clues/evidence and/or 2, to find a body. So, grid searches are done last and they're done very thoroughly because they're looking for stuff that's hard to find like a body in dense brush or loose dirt and foliage that could be a fresh grave or any small clues/evidence of the missing person, like their belongings, clothes, evidence of an injury/death with things like discarded bandages or blood. When you count up all the searches (usually) done in missing persons cases (unless you're dealing with the RCMP), you can end up with 2 hasty searches, 2-3 general ground searches, a possible 1-2+ air searches, and another 2-3 grid searches, totaling to 6-10+ total searches of the same area Like, OP pointed out, there are several examples of the body of a missing person or their items turning up weeks, months, or years later, out in the open, in an area that was repeatedly searched. That makes absolutely no sense because the item or body would've certainly been found in 1 of the several searches, as long as the body/personal belongings were in the search area DURING the search. I mean, that's incredibly strange, and the most simple explanation is that someone, who more than likely is the person who harmed the missing person, moved their body/items to the area that was repeatedly searched AFTER the search is suspended. Very strange. 🤔

[@lsuzicosbw644]

@@LilyoftheLake14this. This is what keeps me up at night

[@MakerInMotion]

@@LilyoftheLake14 You have to have faith in the grid searchers that they maintained the proper distance and paid attention the whole time. I could picture volunteers doing a grid search getting into conversations or diverting around thickets they should have bushwhacked. It's difficult to train a marching band to keep formation on a flat open football field. How hard it must be to keep untrained volunteers in formation through woods.

[@NUFAN1313]

Something else to consider, the people that aren't acclimated to high elevations. It may not seem like a big deal, but it can absolutely kick your butt, make you irritable, and possibly disoriented if you're really struggling with it. Olympic athletes come to the Rockies to train because of the elevation. I've seen at least two touring performers have to stop mid-show because the elevation was making it impossible for them to breath. One of them was Lemmy. I'm an experienced high elevation hiker and couldn't make it halfway up an "easy" foothill hike after being at sea level for three years. So, combine extreme cold and high elevation with an inexperienced hiker/skier, and I could see them getting in trouble if they get separated from a group.

[@tehgerbil]

RIP Lemmy. Miss you.

[@Rubybutterfly666-k6g]

Used to live at ten thousand feet in Rocky mountains saw a lot of people collapse we usually told people drink more water ❤

[@StackedOdds76]

Totally agree most people aren’t ready for the altitude changes and it really can cause major problems especially when you are alone.

[@nafachmi709]

I live near the ocean and I’ll go up to my grandparents cabin and I’ll be out of breath from just walking up the stairs lmao you don’t realize how thin the air is until you need to breathe harder

[@jfangm]

Nobody comes here (Colorado) to train due to the altitude. Training here confers no advantage. LIVING here for a year or more confers an advantage in the form of an increased red cell count.

[@tinkerstrade3553]

Late to the party, but on the Dr. McGrogan case, I think it was panic. Under stress I've seen people just spring into un- thought- out actions you would never expect. People that have high stress jobs often can't cope with losing control of a situation.

[@xxxxxxxxxxxxxyz]

Military gas sprayed from altitude..I fell victim and barely made it out ...iwas litterlly a half mile from my house in the woods

[@deerichardz]

I have read in forums, that an actual SAR member found it fairly obvious, the doc just took the wrong turn, summitted the wrong drainage, and pretty much found his own demise trying to reach the lights of the Vale resort.

[@Pewnhound112]

This. It really doesn’t take much at all for a human to panic and start thinking and acting irrationally, when you get down to brass tacks.

[@audrey8275]

The fact he only called once makes me think he didn't want to admit he messed up. Especially since they'd had a bit of an argument before he left. Because if it were me, I'd call until they answered. Maybe he thought he could figure it out, panicked, and that was it.

[@whitemilfcharlene8703]

Dude that’s what I thought. The group COULA had a whole fight they didn’t mention cuz they didn’t want to look bad. And since they fought cuz he wanted to keep going, maybe he felt too proud to ask for help out there struggling

[@sergent40]

Remind me to never go missing in Canada

[@RepentfollowJesus]

Just a reminder. Don't ever go missing in Canada.

[@ralcogaming7674]

Nah I'm going to specifically go missing in Canada. But in a really obvious spot to increase their chances of finding me so they can get a win for once.

[@numbdigger9552]

Remember to never go missing in Canada.

[@RepentfollowJesus]

@numbdigger9552 love like minded humor lol

[@cannologoat]

Hey just thought I'd remind you not to go missing in Canada

[@unofficiallymykie]

The only theory that makes sense to me with Garret's case is that he was taken by someone he knew and trusted. The odds of a stranger forcibly abducting him in broad daylight without him calling out or anyone seeing are slim to none, but if Garret knew the person it would probably be pretty easy to convince him to follow them.

[@Muffin77527]

As a Canadian, I can confirm that the Mounties are practically useless. Thanks for the wonderful video!

[@purpleranger5987]

Why are they always shown as amazing heroes in every show while all organizations related to police in the US are shown to be bumbling idiots? Genuinely curious do most Canadians know how bad and lackluster their searches are?

[@Rjfjwjajfjwdjds]

For Garret's disappearance I've always wondered if the dad accidentally told his son he was going down the wrong turn, a quick memory lapse, so when he "corrected" Garret, he accidentally sent his son down the wrong turn. If Garret was expecting to see camp soon I can imagine his mind wandering (or concentrating on his wet feet) and by the time he realised he should have arrived, he'd walked some distance. Doesn't explain why he wouldn't just turn around, nor why he didn't respond to shouting, but if they searched in the wrong direction to start the rain might have washed away evidence of him being elsewhere. Such a tragic case.

[@AbbeyBink]

One of the adults in camp hurting, killing and hiding Garrett is by far the most likely scenario.

[@cbphoto87]

@@AbbeyBink that’s far from the “most likely” scenario. That’s an incredibly unlikely scenario, while still possible.

[@namedrop721]

@@cbphoto87it’s extremely likely. Visibility was low, audibility was high as tested. If the dad wasn’t involved, the highest probability scenarios are he was accidentally sent down the wrong turnoff and had gone far from the initial search area by the time he was attacked/fell down a hole or whatever. Nobody heard anything. If he was going in the direction of camp, it’s not unlikely he could have been met there or at camp by a ‘known adult’ with any number of ways of luring him away from the location and also hiding his body. Whatever happened to him happened to his pole and his wet shoes and socks wholesale.

[@thejaster4733]

It's quite likely, however I think that rescuers probably had taken this possibility into consideration during search efforts.

[@YoungLiam74]

@@AbbeyBink It's always funny to go into the comments of these videos and see the people with murder mystery brain rot, who think this kind of outcome is even remotely likely. If you really don't think that a 12 year old getting lost in the woods and succumbing to the elements is the most likely scenario you are living in delulu land.

[@gannondodd4698]

With the case of the 12 year old Boy Scout Mormon, I can’t help but think that it’s a modern day Bobby Bizup. He gets close to camp and an adult counselor, probably someone he trust, brings him away, knocks him out with roofies or chloroform or something of that matter, and stashes him away until he moves him off sight and to a secondary location. Essentially I think that case is just a matter of a Predator father being in the group kidnapping the poor kid and nobody being wise to it because he was in the search

[@hybridxtr]

well and his dad being the last to see him it wouldnt be the first time a dad disposed of a kid

[@bariatric-parasite]

unfortunately i agree, seems more likely considering they are searching based on trust

[@CrystalRaye]

Possibly but I think someone else in the group would've noticed them acting off and disappearing for a odd amount of time

[@emh.1178]

I agree, the Mormon church is pretty infamous for covering up sexual abuse. And the Boy Scouts had a huge scandal of the same. Sadly, it seems to fit, poor kiddo:(

[@strawman7428]

@@CrystalRayeIk it may sound crazy if you haven’t had lots of nuanced interactions with them, but Mormons, especially in that area, are SUCH a tight knight community that they have a known history of lying about or hiding crimes/misdeeds in order to protect the members and the name of the Mormon church. The crime that’s covered up can vary vastly, but ex-Mormons have told me it usually has to do with church abuse scandals, highly dysfunctional families (or parents covering for their kids), and ESPECIALLY financial crimes. Basically, even if something fishy did occur, as long as they all stick to the same story, there won’t be consequences. I don’t claim to know what happened, I am just saying I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it ended up being some kind of foul play, whether an accident they agreed to cover up, or intentional atrocity. Also, lots of times, the system will either just take Mormons for their word because they are perceived as sincere/honest, or leave them alone because they know it’d be basically impossible to prod or put the resources into investigating further.

[@psychosparten049.esquire9]

1:06:40 this is literally THE best theory on the matter I have ever heard. It just makes so much more sense now.

[@nancyagne1245]

Explain a child that was found many miles away stuffed on the side of a cliff without shoes or clothes just underwear ..no animal predation marks bruising etc..two cliff climbers had to get retrieve his body

[@AllieHails92]

I was 12 when Garrett went missing. My siblings were onna camping trip with their troop down in Cottonwood Canyon when it happened and when they'd heard what happened from some other campers in the area they left and took all the boys home. It definitely shook everyone when it happened.

[@GloomyYumi]

I know some people complain about the history parts but those are the reason I binged most of your videos. I love when people talk about their interests and it's very clear you're passionate about history so I could listen to you talk about it for hours (and I have)

[@astrid1660]

I might have said this on your original video on the subject, but the skier’s missing gloves make sense. As someone who used to do some casual winter sports, a person can get hot and sweaty even in freezing temperatures. It’s super uncomfy (and even dangerous) to sweat in heavy winter gear. I would often take off my hat, gloves, and even my jacket to keep myself cool while skiing or snowshoeing in the Alaskan wilderness as a teenager

[@jackrifleman562]

Paradoxical undressing (as well as terminal burrowing) is a thing. So strange that people like Paulides see cases where clothing was removed as so mysterious.

[@samanthab1923]

My son would overheat like that. It was always the hat making him boil

[@matthewmarting7420]

Agreed. The missing boots is what makes zero sense to me Winter boots, especially ski boots, are an outright ordeal to get on and off. They're not coming off from a fall

[@NicknotNak]

​@@jackrifleman562doesnt paradoxical undressing usually extend to more than just the outerwear though? Gloves, hats, jacket can all be explained with just getting too warm from exertion.

[@5hatz]

when i’d ski when i was younger my hands would always get cold despite my gloves and when i get cold i have trouble holding things my fingers get numb. I can easily imagine he took his gloves off to stretch his fingers or try to warm them up on the back of his neck or something so he could hold his poles or something better or even to scratch if they were itching from the cold.

[@bananafruit6060]

For Garrett’s case I always considered the option that it was someone he knew. Someone who was with them and who was considered trust worthy. Close enough to the case that they would have an alibi, someone no body would suspect, who took him.

[@Anomaly-uz9pr]

Like his dad

[@oldspicey6001]

But who?

[@Anomaly-uz9pr]

@@oldspicey6001 personally I think it was one of the men at the camp or even the older boys but one thing is sure he was most likely abducted and killed

[@jessegirlb]

I agree. I wonder if he was meeting up with someone he knew on the trip, hence going down the "wrong" path. I bet that person killed him and hid him and his stuff.

[@hilgi2003]

I have never found confirmation that he was even on the mountain. The only person to see him the night they came up and in the morning was his dad. Was he even there? Another youtuber while looking into this case said info on the dad is a black hole.

[@katiemartinez5490]

I just stumbled on this KZbin channel today and I am now hooked. I enjoy the knowledge and insight as well as the humor that has me laughing even out loud at times.

[@justincadieux1535]

The RCMP arent "Mountain Rangers", they are just cops, they aren't trained on finding missing people in the woods. These cases should be reported to Search and Rescue, who are people actually trained in tracking, survival and navigating the Canadian terrain.

[@PetarPopara]

Interesting and new to me. Yeah, the urban jungle and the natural one are quite different environments.

[@HMSPrinceofWhales53p]

Only thing that comes to mind is that for the two who were never found, where there any abandoned wells around? Speaking from actual work experience near abandoned wells if you do know they are there or find them they can be very hard to see and can be in places you would never expect. If there are abandoned wells in those areas that aren't documented or known and they fell into them and died it's possible that they remain undiscovered to this day in areas searched.

[@agdoren]

Especially if the well was illegal. There was a case in either Italy or Spain where child fell into a partially covered illegal well and died. They tried to rescue him, but couldn't. The well was nearly invisible if you were just out walking around and the only reason theu even knew he was there was because another child was with him. If he'd have been alone he would have just disappeared.

[@MrsGypsumFantastic]

Yes this seems very plausible, or even an obscured natural crevice.

[@joshuamueller3206]

There is a high school in my area that has abandoned coal mine shafts on the property, and I had heard of people falling down crevasse left in sand dunes by rotted out tree trunks.

[@hybridxtr]

had 2 wells that were covered growing up on our property was always terrified of falling into them

[@CrystalRaye]

Caves, mine shafts, wells, etc are definitely a possibility but I think it would still be easy to find them. Peoples tracks and search dogs should be able to lead rescuers right to the hole they fell in. Plus I feel like they would find these holes during the search. If they can find something like a candy wrapper or small piece of clothing someone disappeared with they should be able to find a hole in the ground large enough for someone to fall through.

[@amandamacabre]

If you're looking for something new to deep dive, I would love a similar series on the Warrens' and their investigations. I personally think they were con artists but you guys always manage to find information other KZbinrs miss so I'd be interested in hearing them get the Lore Lodge treatment. Similar to how you covered Missing 411 cases and then did the video on Pauliades and his research, history, credibility, etc.

[@andrewkelley9405]

Ed Warren was definitely a con. Lorraine idk.

[@TheLoreLodge]

Once we’re through with Smiley Face Killers we can hit those!

[@TG-fq6vy]

I agree that the warrens were con artist, I also believe that DP has taken to that level as well.

[@DSum.]

con artists for sure IMO

[@amandamacabre]

@@TheLoreLodge awesome!! Thank you!!

[@PalmelaHanderson]

Personally, I think a lot of the time the "searched" area wasn't really searched. Most of the time, we're talking about volunteers who may or may not be putting in their full effort and/or know what they're doing, so when asked "did you search the area," they'll be like "of course I did," when they may have just given it a cursory glance and called it a day. As for badass mountain man (I forget his name, sorry), one important fact that didn't get mentioned: It was said that no bear shit in the area had human remains. Bears can take 12 hours to a day to digest meat. A bear can cover a LOT of ground in 12 hours. So it could still be that a bear ate him. I agree that that would be unlikely, but hey... everybody gets caught with their pants down every once in a while. Maybe he literally did get caught with his pants down...

[@alexs6746]

I feel like if he got caught with his pants down there still would have been a struggle

[@SaintDorado]

Yeah I also think that it's entirely possible for him to have been suprised by a bear. Even masters of their craft can fail sometimes. Sure he's and absolute badass, but pretending that it would make him literally invincible is a little rediculous in my opinion. Although the fact that there were no signs of a struggle does speak against a bear attack.

[@Wynneception]

I also think it’s not improbable that he had a heart attack or stroke, which would explain the lack of struggle and maybe even why there wasn’t blood on the scene if he was already dead when bears/wolves scavenged him. The fittest and most outdoorsy people I know always seem to be the ones who drop dead between 40 and 50 from a previously undetected heart condition or previously unknown genetic predisposition to heart attack and stroke. Like the healthiest person I ever met was a vegan who ran marathons and cycled long distance. Heart attack at 40. Genetics don’t care about how healthy your lifestyle is.

[@brandonpeters1618]

@@SaintDorado People honestly don’t realize how quiet these bears are They have pads on their feet like walking around with giant pillows on your feet, it would make it next to undetectable. It boggles the mind how these massive 1000 pound creatures can sneak up on elk often, I don’t think it’s impossible for an old and out of hunting shape bear could start stalking Bart. I don’t believe it’s a bear since no blood or signs of a struggle, and what about they pad with the depression as if he was just sitting there before they walked up to camp?

[@JosephSmith-lm4ri]

​@Wynneception wait, wasn't there a face mask found with blood on it, which is what initially told his friends that something was wrong? Also, just the way the evidence was found along with what evidence was found just seems absolutely bizarre.

[@OriginalTurtle-em9zk]

The shade against the mounties is just 👌 perfection

[@MattiasSvanberg1987]

You are gay

[@LightBluePhoenix]

You're both Scully and Mulder, and that's a large part of why I enjoy this channel.

[@bryanthardin8481]

I just want to hear Aiden tell his full snowboarding story now.

[@kilroywashere9343]

Can’t remember which episode it’s in but he tells the full story on one of the podcast episodes

[@firefang600]

Aiden telling us his start of his villain arc after an embarrassing snowboarding experience but who could really blame him

[@EthanPatterson4321]

Maybe a video about the mysterious disappearance of his dignity while snowboarding

[@lindasue8719]

😄

[@abigailseaney2608]

I have another theory for Barts death, but not necessarily his remains. An Aneurysm. I say this cause he apparently wasn't at risk for a heart attack or stroke, but an aneurysm can occur with anyone at any age, more common 30-60 years (Bart was 49) and at random. Does this explain the state of his remains? No. But it's a possibility for death in an otherwise healthy person.

[@alexs6746]

That’s a pretty good explanation, but it doesn’t explain what he was doing on that side of the river with his bag and bow far from him, and why it seemed he left his camp in a rush. If he had an Aneurysm wouldn’t while tracking wouldn’t he have been wearing his gear?

[@TheKnightlyScarling]

​@@alexs6746, Constipation? Maybe he was taking a particularly massive shit. However, I have a theory that's based on the condition of one of the corpses' arms, Cannibals /hillbillies. The first guy was likely found out when he dropped into the area, and they likely waited and domed him when he was about to shit, or after the fact. I don't want to think about why his pants were separate from what was found. The other two were probably ambushed in a similar manner. The boy was likely an opportunity grab, where they threatened the kid, and made it seem like the scouts/dad were surrounded. As for the girl, well, there's worse fates than flinging yourself from on high.

[@mastercalabaster9824]

@@TheKnightlyScarling maybe I'm just being ignorant, because I'm not from the US and I've never been to the US. I get that national parks are wild and uncharted, but are they really THAT wild and uncharted for several uncontacted cannibal tribes to go unnoticed for two centuries or so? I know that the US are huge and like much less densely populated than where I am from, but it just seems so over the top to think that cannibals exist in the US in 2024. As I said, maybe I'm just an ignorant European but are the parks so untouched by civilisation? If yes, it must be incredible to see one.

[@WeekndWarriorrr]

While there are parts of national parks that are damn mear untoiched by humans for who knows how long.. It is veryyy unlikely there are cannibals there. I live in America. Dude is either trolling or doesn't know what hes talking about.

[@rosestar1324]

I mean there are places in the US that are so remote that you can stay there for a long time and not be found. If a small group of people wanted to hide in the forests/mountains, there are some areas where they can do that and if they know the land very well, they can hide from search teams. I've seen this in true crime stories where a single suspect was able to hide from authorities in the wilderness because he knew the area better than authorities. Plus we can't guarantee these areas are being 100% searched. People get tired and make mistakes and could miss the important clue that can lead to these areas being discovered.

[@Len124]

One of my profs during my undergrad psychology degree used Missing 411 to provide textbook examples of selection bias, cherrypicking, logical fallacies, and various other psychological and methodological pitfalls that tend to plague research. While individual cases may be peculiar, when it comes to the phenomenon as a whole, there is absolutely nothing mysterious about national parks _seemingly_ being overrepresented in missing persons cases. It's far easier to become lost in a forest or wilderness setting than an urban area, so in countries with these large tracts of unsettled land trafficked by tourists, missing persons cases are going to cluster around these areas. Some of the reasons are obvious, but I'll list them nonetheless because their implications are revealing: it's where large, dangerous animals live, including predators and/or scavengers to hide or scatter the remains, it's where the threat of exposure is greatest, there are numerous environments in which to get lost, lack of reliable cell coverage, it's more difficult for emergency or recovery services to access the dying or dead, there's a lack of surveillance in most areas, and it's easier for child predators to escape with their victims (disturbingly, this also likely explains the removal of the victims' clothes and why they're often folded when discovered by investigators). The presence of berries in relation to some of these disappearances is also cited by David Paulides, but if there is some statistical significance to the correlation, it really wouldn't be that surprising either. Berries are obviously common in national parks, berry-picking is often the reason people go to these locations, berry patches are a likely place to encounter bears, and it's not uncommon to pick the wrong berries. There are quite a few species that appear similar to edible varieties that even adults could confuse, but it's especially possible in the numerous cases involving young children. They can produce deliriant effects that may play a role in the victim's disorientation, or even toxic-shock and death in extreme cases, leading to their over-representation in the sample of missing persons cases. All of the above is just what came to mind and is by no means an exhaustive list. I know there's more to it than what I just mentioned, but a lot of it can be explained by a simple bias in case selection, the natural tendency for people to get lost in the wilderness, and a filling-in of the rest of the picture on top of several fairly mundane common denominators in order to make the evidence fit the predetermined conclusion, rather than the other other way around. Edit: Typos.

[@chriswhite2151]

This comment basically explains the entire "phenominon". People go missing in National Parks because millions of people visit National Parks! Paulides talks about there being rocks and water. Where isn't there rocks and water? It's often a case of fitting the circumstances to the case, instead of vice versa. For instance he talks about weather incidents occuring during a search, as if that were suspicious. It's actually more like that cases where weather interferes with searching just makes it far more difficult to follow a trail or find tracks. The cognitive bias information you speak of is something that should be taught in school. It is one of the most important things I have ever learned about.

[@giocatore_83]

I don't really trust the science crowd for these types of things. Part of science is to always try to explain away the unknown even if the explanation makes no sense. Like people who think 7 foot gold miners with jetpacks and glow in the dark body armor are in peru attacking people. They are so against the idea of anything weird they will think of something that is just as weird but it's natural instead. Science is so against the idea of anything supernatural even if the explanation makes no sense they will throw one out just to explain it away so they don't have to address it.

[@Carlito84Qc]

Berries have deliriant effects ? That's the first time i read about this. Which kind of berries is concerned ?

[@deerichardz]

@jeffborders2956 Yup, he nailed it. I would have added that Paulides is a BSer though, a 'predatorial' grifter, a man that has lost touch with reality, yet chases the ole mighty $$ at any cost.

[@IwonaKlich]

Also - searching for the body is very hard and it's always can just ended nothing. Or you find the body that you not search this time... you can walk over the body and you brain just "forget"...

[@kenziecarter9458]

The missing 411 series you guys did has been one of my favourites, I keep coming back to rewatch

[@k80326]

Lately, I’ve found so much comfort in your videos they’re the only way I can fall asleep. Thank you for your content! So grateful for this channel

[@kathyjacques2688]

I love your story about the hypothetical person who relied on their buddies to teach you how to snowboard n a little girl asked if you were ok, have a backstory like that myself n no, I never went skiing again

[@klaatuNaatu]

The thought of running into mountain/cave people might just be scarier than running into a cryptid when you're alone in the woods just because the former is so much easier to believe. My mind immediately snaps to that ending scene from Bone Tomahawk and that's probably the most horrifying fate I can imagine. Anyway, great video as always! Also I'm stoked to see your films down the road: Wish you both a lot of luck on that! I imagine it'll be daunting at first.

[@petar658]

Oh God, Bone Tomahawk Is brutal.

[@mikemimson4771]

You guys are really good at examining all the facts, watching all these videos most of the time the evidence leads to a mundane answer and you guys accept that. So when you say "its weird this isn't mundane" it actually means something cause you started from a perspective of wanting to find the truth rather than something crazy which is incredibly appreciated.

[@MountainHobbler]

I did not expect this to end with blaming wildlings what a twist I love it! Good points about Garret regarding how a kidnapper would get him back to the highway but I still do not think that he died in the basin.

[@NBuss-x1u]

I just found your channel and I've watched quite a few of your videos and I have to say I'm extremely impressed with the level of your research.

[@annme_87]

"ugh... Looking for people is hard and I'm tired."- The RCMP probably.

[@masturbates]

Don't underestimate the pony police! There are still some Tim Hortons' up north

[@e.b.squared]

Tanya is the nickname or a shortened name of Tatiyana. Like Vicky is for Victoria, or Liz is for Elizabeth. So she was probably just called Tanya as a fond name or nickname, but her official name is Tatiyana.

[@yennefer1986]

I wonder, is there 100% confirmed by other people that Garret really left his father side? Not wanting to accuse an innocent person, but it just baffles me that it sounds like nobody took it as a possibility?

[@kingpaddy9009]

This is relevant in most 411 cases at least how they are presented by youtubers. Some of the most mysterious aspect is the "sudden" disappearance only some meters away from the witness. But rarely people question the reliability of the witnesses. I remember a case of a grandfather If Im remember right, whose grandson was playing in the garden a he left him only for a minute/ moment unsupervisioned and the boy has vanished completely. Was it one minute? Or not three or five? You wouldn't believe how bad the time feeling of people is really (especially, when they are talking to someone) and also there is the problem, that maybe the grandfather is lying not wanted to get blamed on for leaving his grandson alone for too long. What at the first glance seems mysteriously is maybe not so mysterious at all, when adjusting the time frame or even distance.

[@thejaster4733]

I agree that KZbinrs tend to present witnesses as reliable, when in reality it's totally opposite. That's why during the trials and investigations witnesses statements are low in the overall hierarchy of clues and evidences.

[@away2350]

Hey, this is the first video from your channel I've seen. You guys are really well researched, and I appreciate your transparency on sources. I also appreciate your respect for the victims. Some people would definitely not have the same empathy and understanding you do (especially for younger victims like Garrett). Keep up the good work! I look forward to diving into your content.

[@kayjasmr7174]

I am in love with the fact you mentioned artyom from 2033 and the series Your videos are insanely fun to watch, your level of research and attention to detail is impressive and I enjoy hearing the stories you have to share. Keep it up

[@dialecticcoma]

thank you for the paulides photos, i tend to forget what he looks like every 2 minutes

[@truthsandtales]

In the case of Gareth, is it at all possible that it was actually his dad that got the trail wrong? As in Gareth was actually heading up the right trail initially and his dad made a mistake and misdirected him to the wrong trail? Maybe I’m missing something but I’ve not seen that discussed

[@kenw2225]

Maybe. But then his dad found his way back.

[@Princess_Celestia_]

My grandfather was involved in a search for a missing person. He worked in the oil field and when this happened he was in charge of several rigs over in the middle east. He sent a man out to relieve a driller. The route he was to take was clearly marked with 55 gallon oil drums filled with sand and painted orange with arrows point in the direction you needed to go. It was a 4 hour drive from base camp to the rig he was needing to go to and every truck was equipped with 50 gallons of gas and 10 gallons of water, 2 spare tires and a manual on what to do if you got lost or stranded. Well the driller called my grandfather that night asking about when his relieve eoukd arrive. The guy should have been there by noon anx it was already nightfall. The next morning they got some planes in the air and began looking for this guy. They searched the north, east and west, everywhere he could have reasonably gotten that truck. When the sir search failed to find this guy, they decided to search in an area he couldn't possably have gotten to so they sent out 3 man teams in trucks with 200 gallons of gas, 100 gallons of water, 2 weeks of food, 2 employees and 1 local who could speak English and perfect Arabic. One of these teams encountered a trade caravan who's leader told the local interpreter they had spotted a truck matching their own farther to the south. When they got there, they found his body under the truck, he died of heat exhaustion. Turns out he found out he had cancer so he drove off into the desert to die so his wife could sue the company claiming how they didn't have navigation equipment installed on the trucks. Moral of this story, you shouldn't assume something is mysterious just because it's unlikely to happen. Even his wife had no idea he was going to off himself like that.

[@ItsDobbie]

Wow, that’s… not at all where I thought that story was going to go.

[@JosephSmith-lm4ri]

What the hell?

[@davemccage7918]

Un-aliving yourself via heat exhaustion is not what I’d call “ideal”. I think that drowning would be less agonizing that letting the sun have it’s way with you.

[@babydahl9424]

​@@davemccage7918 he wasn't going for ideal, he was trying to find a way his wife could gain from his death.

[@LurkingLeviathan]

I've been obsessed with missing 411 since I learned about it 10 or 12ish years ago. Every answer you come up with can be disproved. It's terrifying. One thing I can tell you, be it a force or a being... it's intelligent, very very extremely terrifyingly bone chillingly intelligent

[@numbdigger9552]

The cases where there are NO reasonable answers are really rare though. Most 411 cases can be explained.

[@earthy205]

Never a single one of your videos. The KZbin algorithm just recommended and I wanted something to fall asleep to. The open sentence was so dark I am cry laughing, now going to he up all night watching your videos! What an introduction! 🤣 Subscribed!

[@randyp9491]

So about the Garrett Bradsley case. I used to work with a guy in his late 20's who's last name is also Bardsley and one time while talking to him he told me that he was from Utah and that he had to escape the cult of the Mormon church and come to California. Now I don't think the Bardsley guy I knew was Garrett, but same last name and both from Utah and roughly the same age......Got me thinking: why if Garrett was only going to change his wet socks would he take his fishing pole with him only to have to carry it back? It seems to me that Garrett had already planned on not coming back and just maybe the reason he went the wrong direction before his father corrected him was that he needed to go that way bc it was how he was going to escape. Maybe he switched back once out of his father's sight and just maybe he had a plan to escape the cult of the Mormon church just like the Bardsley kid I used to work with . BTW about the found sock. What 12 year old boy wears the same size sock as an adult volunteer? there should had been a size difference even if many people have identical nike socks.

[@ashtonbrush9246]

from what i can find garrett’s family was likely mormon, they held his memorial service at an lds church and had family friends who were part of it. and to add, Bardsley doesn’t seem to be a common last name (from what i can tell, only a couple thousand people in the states have it) i doubt it, but it is (slightly) possible u worked with garrett

[@punchbeard]

Definitely possible to planned to leave. Since in LDS young males are often either controlled or exiled by the more powerful older men so they can have all the younger women as their wives, plenty of young LDS men who aren’t well connected enough to be assigned a bride but are free enough to learn about the world will flee the cult before they’re forced out and try to live incognito. LDS is scary like that, a 12 year old is old enough to start realising be’s gonna be ousted. He could have easily hiked down the mountain, following the Hayden fork river to the road and hitched a lift if he’d planned it. From there, who knows, would still be dangerous as fuck.

[@peterfazio9306]

Do you remember the first name your friend used? If it is the same person, might be a clue in the name.

[@randyp9491]

@@peterfazio9306 yeah owen. Also since I’ve posted this comment this guy that lives there in Utah walked in from the trailhead and camped in the location as the Boy Scouts. It took him 4 hours to get there from the parking lot. Over mountains, around mountains and then finally down into the valley where Garrett was camping with the scouts. There’s no way he could had walked off on his own and gotten out of the valley within the 20 minutes that went by before his dad started looking. It would had taken him way way too long to get out of the valley not to mention another 3 hours just to get to a road. Plus when this guy did his hike there were plenty of other people on the trail and even camping in the same valley… there’s no way Garrett could had gotten out of there unnoticed. And because it was a valley there’s no way Garrett could had gotten lost. Yes he could’ve gotten mixed up and turned around but in no way could he not hear anyone yelling his name . Think of the valley like a big deep salad bowl and they were camping at the very bottom center of the bowl. The only way out would be to climb the steep sides to the rim of the bowl so now my only theory is that someone in that group did something to Garrett and hid his body. There’s no other reasonable explanation

[@peterfazio9306]

@@randyp9491 That's my thought as well. The most likely to me seems like the father or one of the other dads.

[@jthmn]

@TheLoreLodge, a takeaway I got from this video that I agree with is that some of these disappearances most likely occurred because of a human being the one to cause the harm or danger to the person who went missing. However, I think we aren’t giving enough thought into the idea of hunting mishaps, it happens more often than you think that two random people are hunting in the same area, wearing camouflage and no orange, one mistakes the other for a deer or prey and shoots them. If this happens in a really isolated location, and nobody knows that the person who injured the other was there, they very well might just hide the body and leave. Like a “if a tree falls down in the forest and nobody is there to see it, did it really fall?” type scenario. Anyways, good video. I hope every one of these cases gets a rational explanation eventually.

[@DestinyKiller]

Even good, excellent hunters have lapses of judgement sometimes

[@GrowingIsConstant]

This is something I have considered on many of these cases. I used to live in a small forested town where almost everyone hunted. Some of those people were not people I would consider responsible enough to own a gun, let alone own up to a hunting accident nobody saw.

[@davemccage7918]

To answer your question “If a tree falls in the forest and nothing’s around to hear it, does it make a sound?” Technically no, it does NOT make a sound. What we call sound is just vibrations in the air that are picked up by the ear, interpreted by the brain and converted into what we would call sound. Sound doesn’t actually exist unless there is an ear or microphone around to pick it up.

[@amandarinker7741]

@@davemccage7918humans are not the only beings with ears

[@davemccage7918]

@@amandarinker7741 Hence the reason I said “nothing” instead of “no one”. My statement still stands.

[@myeyesburn641]

Just wanted to say: I love this channel! Not only is it very informative, it's also somehow very comforting to watch your videos. Keep up the good work!

[@arrowwood]

I absolutely *love* the intense amounts of sass involved in these videos. It absolutely makes the entire experience.

[@DouglasKiper-wf5ru]

Prayers and good will to the families of the missing

[@ethanchilds3775]

found this with 60 seconds to premiere lmao meant to be

[@n2da9]

W

[@cokedreams]

Welcome to the schizophrenic rants of a man we call lore daddy

[@briantomcollins]

Shit... and i'm 2 hours late. 😂

[@lynxface3214]

As someone getting a PhD in psychology, I wonder if some of these cases may be driven by some form of paranoia/psychosis. Several of these cases seem to have people making irrational decisions. Fear can make people do extreme things that make no sense, and extreme situations, such as intense cold from hypothermia, can contribute to erratic behavior. In the case of smaller children being found in places where they shouldn’t have been able to reach, they could have been dragged there by large predators, such as bears and mountain lions. Not as sure on that one, though.

[@alexs6746]

I feel like a large predator wouldn’t go through the effort of dragging them to an extremely hard to reach place if there were other options and then not doing anything else that would have left significant evidence to them being there

[@jeanbherer-simard7189]

Yes, cases where the person 'could' have done the trek should be dismissed, decisions not making sens in the context shouldnt surprise anybody.

[@stephenpmurphy591]

​@@alexs6746Mountain lions consume bones as a regular part of their diet. However clothing would be shredded & blood stained.

[@Jim-Mc]

You might be interested in the 1993 Khamar Daban incident.

[@smm855]

@@Jim-Mc God that incident scares the shit out of me 😱I think it's scarier than the Dyatlov or the Yuba County 5 because there was a survivor that could tell you what they saw 😬

[@tanner4412]

Thank you for such a great and lengthy video! As someone in their senior year of studying forensic sciences, the levels of police incompetence are insane. They are taught some of the same things we are in terms of crime scenes! It drives me insane and needs to be fixed lol

[@joncooke9515]

I’m a lifelong outdoorsman, hunter, and veteran, but I’m new to national park hiking. So beautiful, yet at times unforgiving. I try to learn from others mistakes, number one being don’t hike far alone.

[@lawrencegreenwood2646]

Because of these videos from this channel I've stopped hiking alone in the NJ Pine Barrens!

[@Nate.mp4]

It sounds to me like Garrett was trying to run away. He made a wrong turn on purpose but didn't realize his dad was watching, so he went back to take the right path and immediately went off trail. Hard to say why he'd do something like that, though.

[@alexs6746]

I mean I guess it makes sense, but just how far could he have gotten and where did he go? Also how did nobody see him on that trail if it was literally in sight of the camp? And why hold onto the fishing rod? I feel like it would have made more sense for him to had head into camp and grab some things and drop off the fishing rod then run away

[@navelaviator18]

​​@@alexs6746he also had wet shoes and socks... "he tried to power through it" but couldn't, that's why he headed back to camp in the first place. If you're planning on running away, you don't do it in wet socks and shoes when you can't even fish in wet socks and shoes.

[@peterfazio9306]

It's possible, I guess. I think it's more likely one of the fathers (or maybe one of the older kids) did something to him. Something about the father's story doesn't sit right. Or he could have fallen into a natural crevasse. There's a reason no one's solved this one.

[@BrandonDenny-we1rw]

​@@navelaviator18 ....why would you be unable to fish with wet socks and shoes?

[@navelaviator18]

@@BrandonDenny-we1rw yeah, that's kinda my point. Most kids wouldn't care if their shoes were wet and would keep fishing anyway. But he couldn't do it... I don't think he used his wet footwear as an excuse to go back to camp by himself just so he could run away...

[@RileyRunsWithScissors]

If I put myself in Stacy’s shoes, and I’m gonna run away up in the mountains, you can bet I’d take the same horse I rode in on rather than hiking out on my own. I mean….you have a horse at your disposal, why not take it?

[@ethanbenson563]

Nice work man! Been watching a lot of your content, especially missing 411 stuff.

[@TheHogie2920]

For the Boy scout who went missing, you had said that he originally missed the turn to head towards camp. I imagine that he made that wrong turn when on his way back to his dad and went up that trail heading the wrong way. I believe that is why nothing was left behind, he thought he was on his way back to his dad. However, after that, who knows.

[@cbphoto87]

The lack of a recovered fishing pole has always bothered me in the Bardsley case, but the more I think about it, it’s highly possible that after a few years it was inadvertently recovered by a hiker or scout unaware of its significance. Or just as likely people have stumbled upon it and didn’t think anything of it. There are probably dozens of abandoned fishing poles floating around the Uintas so it’s not something that is necessarily going to draw attention

[@trainman05matthewb.65]

First 4 mins of this video and he's already said "caves not withstanding" and I'm on the floor

[@rubywlwrose8468]

Utahn here, grew up in and around the Uintas. Its pretty easy to get lost if you don't know where you're going, but I'm doubtful theres a society of humans in there. Not saying it isn't impossible, the Uintas are massive and I've only seen bits and pieces of it, but I've never even heard of anyone coming across any signs of humans doing anything outside camping or hiking.

[@Hjeff38]

Hello lorelodge, this channel has become one of my favorite channels on KZbin. I am very interested in the history of indigenous America and your channel does a great job teaching about it. I am from Arizona but stationed in California. I would really like to see a video about the tribes of Arizona, Navajo, Apache, Gila, etc. One thing in particular you may find interesting is the superstition mountain range located about 45 min east of Phoenix. It’s been known to have many disappearances as well as battles between the cavalry and Apache, the lost Dutchman’s gold mine, and hundreds of thousands of years of geological history. I think you would find it very interesting. A couple of channels mysteries of the superstition mountains and legend of the Superstition Mountains do a good job talking about the history of the area. Another great area to look into would be the Apache wars which took place in Arizona and northern Sonora Mexico. If you’ve never heard of The Lost Dutchman’s Gold Mine, I think you would find it interesting, as hundreds of people over the past 150 years have gone out and died/disappeared searching for it. Again I’d like to say how much I enjoy this channel and look forward to more content.

[@kingofhearts3185]

Sounds like my kind of thing. Are you native yourself?

[@Hjeff38]

@@kingofhearts3185I’m not, I just find Arizona history interesting

[@kingofhearts3185]

@@Hjeff38 Fair enough. I'm from Canada and I agree. It's a strange place, and that's why I love hearing about it.

[@thefisherking78]

30:00 This is one of the most infuriating parts of this story, because it proves that six men at a minimum went out there and completely phoned it in. They walked around for a few minutes, collected a day's pay, and got back in whatever vehicle transported them there, and they lied to keep their lazy entitled life going.

[@forever003434]

You’re dry humor is absolutely hilarious and loved the episode

[@ChaosRainLOL]

Have you ever heard of Isreal Keyes? Serial killer who eluded to “letting people come to him” and had kill kits buried in many national parks and camping areas.

[@ChaosRainLOL]

You mentioning early 2000s is interesting in that case.

[@sarahbauer8729]

Exactly who I was coming to suggest. I don’t remember his timeline but I do know he operated all over the us and probably Mexico.

[@ericweaver1731]

Kill kits buried around national parks? Well at least that guy has hobby, he likes that sneaky behind the scenes kind of stuff

[@CrystalRaye]

Possibly but obviously he couldn't be responsible for all of the weird missing persons cases

[@ChaosRainLOL]

@@CrystalRaye didn’t say all

[@TigerLily61811]

I've watched a lot of these missing videos. What I've come to believe is that even though search teams do their level best... when you are dealing with the wilderness, it's simply impossible to look under every rock and tree, in every crevice and ravine. Additionally, I believe people - and especially children - are capable of traveling much much further over tough terrain that anyone imagines. I've come to these conclusions from the many stories of people who are eventually found. Thoughts on these cases: Jim McGrogan was clearly frustrated with how slow his friends were traveling, otherwise he would have stayed with them. They left at 8am and didn't arrive at the cabin until 5:30 pm? That's 9.5 hours to travel 7 miles... so about 80 min per mile - pretty slow considering a leisurely paced walk can do a mile in about 20 min. Granted they are going uphill, but still 4x slower? Anyway my point is at that pace, it's entirely possible they might not have reached the turnoff yet. If Jim believed he was on the right trail, and knew his destination was miles away, it's plausible he could carry on quite a ways before questioning himself. His phone call might simply have been him taking a break and checking in with his buddies on their progress and nothing to do with thinking he was lost. He would have had 5+ hours of travel time before the lights of Vail became visible. That's plenty of time to travel 4.5 miles. And if it was growing dark and he was tired from hiking all day, then it might have been tougher to discern a trail, yet he could have simply kept pushing feeling that he must be close to his destination. If he did begin to suspect he was lost, then moving out of the trees and close to the edge of a cliff to get a clear vantage point makes sense. A tired, inexperienced skier in unfamiliar terrain at twilight, sadly he slipped on the ice and fell. Stacy Arras: I think the key to this one is she went off to take pictures. She may have had the camera to her face, trying to frame a photo and backed up or moved sideways without looking at her feet or the terrain. If TikTok has taught us anything, a 14 year old girl isn't thinking about tripping when she's solely focused on getting a good picture. I believe she took a misstep and either fell into ravine or rolled down a dangerous hill to her death. Given the dense foliage of the area, the places she would most likely have fallen would also be the toughest to search. Bart Schleyer: What's unusual about this one is the remains of part of his skull and a few small bones were found only 19 days after he was last seen. So if he died where he was found, nature made quick work of his remains. They said there were no signs of a struggle and he was found on moss. The moss part intrigues me. I imagine any blood from an attack would have been quickly absorbed by moss, leaving little sign. He might have tussled with a bear at an undiscovered location, fought it off and then retreated to the moss where he succumbed to his wounds. Then he was scavenged. However saying no human remains were found in the bear scat in the area is inaccurate. His remains were sadly found in bear scat in the area. www.outdoorlife.com/articles/will-snyder/2007/09/scientists-remains-found-bear-scat/

[@deerichardz]

The doc took a wrong turn. Ended up in the wrong spot, but could see the lights of the Vail resort. He tried, but unfortunately failed, to correct himself. Stacey, what you say is plausable. Bart, I'd totally agree with you there.

[@bigasspockets]

I think these are all reasonable. I’d be interested to hear your input on the other two cases

[@TigerLily61811]

​@@bigasspockets thanks. The 2 men at the cabin case there simply isn't enough information presented here to spark any thoughts. With Garrett, I noticed they said he wasn't able to navigate back to camp without his father course correcting him immediately. So it seems like he didn't have a good sense of his surroundings.The question I have that wasn't answered in this video is did Garrett change his socks? because that might indicate what direction he was traveling. What makes the most sense to me is he made it to camp, changed his socks, then was headed away from camp thru the woods back to fishing ..set out on a wrong trail and wound up lost.

[@lucyh2528]

@@TigerLily61811maybe you should start making videos about cases like this. I feel you have a good mind to figure out things like this. I would watch!

[@meangene408]

I think that Paulides doesn't honestly believe these folk were abducted by bigfoot or UFOs as much as he knows who he's selling his books and films to. He knows what kind of shows he's going on. I remember way back on his first couple of appearances on C2C (doing the first 411 books) he always stressed that he didn't believe any one thing was to blame. But, again, he knows what his audience is. He's read the room.

[@chriswhite2151]

Kind of like what happened to the History Channel, which turned into the Hitler channel, and eventually reality t.v.

[@brettkilian9855]

He’s on that graham handonmycock grifting game plan

[@alphooey]

@@chriswhite2151”Ancient Alien theorists say …”

[@deerichardz]

When he presented the Robert Hageman incident, Paulides praises the LEO involved and the search effort put in, until the sheriff, a man of thirty years plus service, comes to the conclusion that when Mr Hageman is found that the remains have probably been there since he went missing. Yet, you have Paulides saying he isn't buying that, but will tap, or point at, the UFO poster that he has been sitting in front of for over a year. He made his video about two weeks after the man's remains were found. His room ate it up, they are his ne$t.

[@meangene408]

@pork-chopxpress I think he's done some good work. He brought cases that were being long forgotten about back to the public eye where channels like this can then re-review cases. He's also made a lot of KZbin channels a lot of subscribers based on this subject alone. Again, at the start, I think he was quite open to the subject. I know he was a big foot guy first and a member of MUFON and perhaps this is part of the issue.

[@city_survivor9995]

Dude I remember the first time I found your video. Glad to see You've come back to the 411 cases . . . I've got a lot of catching up to do 💪💪. Keep up the great work

[@Astraydas]

I know this video was 2 months ago at time off this comment, but wow, i love how you present the information and how clear you are! You provide so much information and detail in this-i was both shocked and thoroughly impressed.

[@VMM34]

The most suspicious aspect of Garret's disappearance is that he took his fishing pole with him. Why would he do that if, as stated in newspaper articles, he was going to come straight back after he changed his wet things and catch a fish for breakfast? The fishing tackle was already all set up at the lakeside but he takes his pole with him? I'm not buying that. Did they search for Garrett and his pole in the water? Because that's where I think he'll be

[@Boxman2.0]

I agree. It makes no sense at all that he would take his fishing pole with him if he was coming right back. The fact that dogs were unable to track his scent at all- even though they were on the scene relatively quickly-is another red flag. Something about the official story seems very off, and I’m skeptical that the hard questions were ever asked in this case.

[@coryevert2224]

Maybe he had expensive poles and he had a habit of not leaving it laying around...?

[@BrandonDenny-we1rw]

​@@coryevert2224 My poles are like $20. I'm still not leaving it just sitting anywhere for any length of time

[@cbphoto87]

Because kids don’t have adult brains. Could be he was protective of his fishing pole or brought it with him in case his dad stopped fishing before he came back. Kids do illogical stuff

[@thebutterytoster5721]

When I was younger I was scared if I left something of mine it would get lost or stolen so I would keep it with me. I can see how he would bring his pole if he didn’t want it to fall in the lake or maybe his dad’s hands were full and he couldn’t hold it

[@Kingofstonerrock]

Boys are killing it, I was a subscriber early on, good stuff

[@Black_Heart_Defense]

Been binging y’all and goon the last couple weeks. Love these longer episodes.

[@kayleekittredge4035]

Nice job finding an area that fit all the criteria in the Stacey Arras case. Just found this channel. Instantly hooked

[@abandoninwy1]

A SASQUATCH IN A UFO DID IT

[@zachyowell6746]

You know too much

[@NanaBren]

Hi Aidens, I enjoyed the video. Thank you for reviewing these cases. The fishing rod thing drives me nuts. He would have to have been taken from right beside where the others were, in daylight and without any warning or sound. If he fell into a hole of some kind, he may have held on to his fishing rod at first and then died when he hit bottom. People searching may have totally missed the opening of a cave or well if there was brush around it. It’s the only explanation that seems possible to explain why nothing was found. As for big bad Bart, I think he had a aneurysm and was scavenged. The RCMP are known for their lack of integrity in solving these cases. The two older men may have left the cabin because it’s haunted. Something scared the shit out of them bad enough that they would die instead of going back. The young girl is hard to explain, unless she thought she could get a better photo by climbing up the cliff. It’s something that I would do at her age. The old man slowed her down and she was afraid of missing a good sunset, so she decided to go up higher. After she got up there, she couldn’t get down and probably fell into a ravine outside of the accepted area they searched. That’s my theory of the cases you mentioned. I can’t think of any reason why the doctor would be where he was. Nothing. Wishing you both a great new year!

[@kitbotbot4778]

Yea, but remember on the kid the father saw the kid going down the wrong path and the father corrected his footsteps. So the kid was put on the right way to go and probably had line of sight or the traverse was line of sight. Meaning you couldnt screw that up.

[@NanaBren]

Actually, I took that into account. The kid was directed onto the right path by his father and in that short path was either a hole, cave, or portal. The search assumed that he had again wandered off and we don’t know if they thoroughly searched the immediate area adjacent to the path itself, or just assumed that he would have been visible from their camp.

[@pablojansen2080]

Lovely video lads at the lore lodge Please do a video like this on missing 411 cases that have a reasonable explanation Basicly the missing 411 cases that are not mentioned in this video

[@anarestrepo8402]

Hii aideen, i'm from panama and i think you should look into the case of the 2 dutch girls that dissapeared in Panama around 2014 their names were Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon , hiking up a trail in Boquete (David) called El Pianista, it is a hiking trail in a rainforest and difficult to travel, I have done it myself with a group of 8-11 people and a guide and let me state that its extremly fucking easy to get lost, or fall and die. its a very interesting case and also a sad one. everything around it is weird, from their decisions to their bodies being found, if you want the people's opinion, most think they just died from natural causes or murdered, but when you get fully into it, its very weird, but yeah I have also seen very little coverage of the case

[@Вика-м7ц]

I’ve listened to an interesting podcast called ‘lost in Panama’ about them. Probably, their deaths have something to do with the local gang.

[@Stoned_Silly]

I came here because someone in a comment of another missing 411 video said they leave out information to make it more sensationalized and recommend this guy!

[@ceaton7536]

Hi, I'm Cindy. Im from MI. I just found your channel and honestly I was impressed with your research and with how you present the cases. I also liked your sense of humor, a good sense of humor is a sign of intelligence in my humble opinion. Anyway, I subscribed and am looking forward to making my way through your content !

[@Hoppy828]

Woke up to you and Wendi laughing at Aarons excuse for the Golden Calf😂😂😂. Thank you for all you do. You're making a difference.

[@gryaznygreeb]

2:21 Tanya is like a nickname version of Tatiana. It's common in Russian. Your name will be Vladislava, but your friends just call you Vlady. Your name is Anna but close friends say Anya. Sasha is short for Alex pr Alexandra for some reason. It's like Richard and Dick I guess with US English, or Will instead of William.

[@magisterdeinanis3217]

Watching on premier for the first time and I feel like I finally hit something close to a bucket list item 😂

[@UnicornSpoonie]

Okay I just found your channel and I gotta say that I was quite impressed with your research! And thank you for the many side comments that made me laugh! I’m excited to watch more! And yes I have liked and subscribed! Keep up the good work! 😀👏👍

[@fifacentral6628]

I’m so happy that I found this channel, please keep it up❤

[@AJOlaks]

I believe I have mentioned this story before, but I will tell it again. I was on a hiking trip. a few younger scouts walked off and I was tasked with going and retrieving them, I found them and began walking back (admittedly too fast since I left them behind) I dont remember their being a single cut off on the trail I was on, but I walked for what feels almost 4 times the distance before coming out of a different exit (to the same place I was originally heading back to) then the one I entered from. I have not and most likely never will understand how I got lost in those woods edit: just want to clarify, I got "lost" after leaving the other boys behind. and was thusly not following the buddy system

[@alexs6746]

This is why I don’t go outside lol

[@kitbotbot4778]

@@alexs6746 rotflmao!

[@hopelessromantic3786]

There were a few times as a kid where I got lost in the woods behind my house and somehow managed to find places I'd never seen before despite spending every day out there. Never saw them again after I finally found my way out. It never made sense to me. I'd suddenly find massive stretches of abandoned cars or big empty fields right where I was *sure* a neighbors house was supposed to be.

[@hybridxtr]

​@@hopelessromantic3786the woods are a mystic place makes sense all the folk tales come from them

[@SmallStormFinatic]

dang Jim worked very close (same town) to my house. kinda surreal. a theory i have for some cases! My theory is that animals take away the remains when it is raining. While this doesn't solve all of them, it would make sense that if it starts raining and they die of exposure, animals can take away bits or just the body and that would fool the search dogs. This would make sense considering the profile points of "weather change" and "dogs couldn't track". so yea that's it! i love your content and keep it up 👍

[@joshuacooley1417]

For the Jim McGrogan case, it seems to me the only real mystery is the lack of tracks leading off the trail. Take into account the fact that you're dealing with a guy who is described as "the most adventurous person I know" who is on a dream trip planned for a year. He leaves his friends because they want to rest and he doesn't. Essentially they aren't being adventurous enough, so he wants to go off on his own. Now take into account the fact that the guy is geared up and confident, he's got a phone, gps, and he can literally see Vale. There is zero chance he can get lost. All of the stuff about how inexplicable his being lost would be seems to miss the most likely point. He didn't get lost, he just went off on his own for the adventure of it. The call that happened about an hour after the group strikes me as probably accidental (butt dial) since it lasted less than 20 seconds. That is assuming there was good signal and the call didn't drop. If it was an intentional call, then it could just as easily have been Jim calling to tell them that he was going off trail. He obviously intended to do cross country skiing, given the equipment he rented. It seems quite probable to me that he decided to have a little adventure. The only difficulty or mystery really is the lack of clear evidence of him leaving the main trail. In the Bart Schleyer case, animal attack, or natural causes, seems the most likely probability. The whole idea that Bart was too good to ever be killed by a bear etc, I think ignores some things. First, Bart was clearly a risk taker. Skill keeps a person safe, when it tells them what risks not to take, and they listen. There are plenty of situations you can put yourself in, by taking risks, that no amount of skill can keep you safe in. It should not be surprising, or particularly mysterious, when people who live a life devoted to taking risks eventually run out of luck. It doesn't strike me as a coincidence that Bart's two best friends also died in the wilderness as a result of living their adventurous lifestyle. Skill can lessen risks, but again, there are some situations that no amount of skill can remove all risk from. It seems pretty clear that Bart was all about seeking out those types of situations. Second, in general, hunting bear with bow, even on the ground, isn't that dangerous. However, the reason it isn't that dangerous generally is because it is usually done with black bears, and most bears when confronted by a human will simply run off. It is *relatively* rare for a bear to attack. There are about 11 bear attacks in the USA per year. However, killing a bear quickly with a bow requires a pretty specific shot. You basically have to have a side on shot and there is about an 8 inch circle behind the bear's front legs where you can hit it's vitals. If the bear is not presenting it's broad side to you, the chances of a fast kill shot are very low. What this means is that if a bear is aware of you, and decides to come at you instead of running off, your chances of killing it with a bow are VERY very low, almost non-existent. To make this point clear, this does not require the bear to sneak up on you. All it requires is for the bear to know you are there, and to decide to attack. Even if the bear was a good ways off, there would be almost nothing a person could do. Killing the bear would be nigh impossible, unless you are Hugh Glass, your only chances would be escape, or just hoping you survive the mauling. Escape is also be pretty unlikely since you can't outrun a bear. If you were very very lucky, maybe there would be a suitable tree within reach that you could climb out of reach in time. Generally unlikely though. The evidence available suggests that Bart probably died on his first or second day at the site. The fact that he had only eaten one meal, and he appeared to be scouting out a location to use as a blind for moose hunting. That all suggests he had just arrived. That means he probably did not have time to familiarize himself with the area and the wildlife present in the area. I don't care how good you are, if you row up to a wooded shore and get out of your boat, the chances that there would be something like a moose or a bear that was relatively close, but still obscured from sight seem pretty high. The description of his remains that were found, to me, sound like his body was scavenged by wildlife. I think there is a high probability that an animal like a moose or a bear killed him, but it is also possible, as stated, that he could have suffered something like a heart attack or a stroke which either killed him or debilitated him. It is also possible he might have suffered some kind of accident. In terms of not finding clothing in bear scat etc. Whether it was a bear or not, corpses don't last long in the wilderness. They get scavenged and little is left to be found. IF it was a bear, it is also not terribly surprising that nothing was found in that specific area since bears can have a territorial range of up to 500 square miles. There isn't enough evidence to clearly state what happened, but there also really isn't anything that clearly rules out either animal predation, natural causes, or accident. This is also an example, in my opinion, of how the "that seems unlikely" argument is a bit of a cop out and gets misused. For example, he was a healthy middle aged guy, in great shape. A heart attack seems unlikely. Well, what seems more unlikely, that a middle aged guy in great shape could have undiscovered heart issues, or that wendigo killed him? or some mysterious human killer tracked him down in the middle of the Canadian wilderness and murdered him for no apparent reason? or aliens did it? etc. It may seem unlikely that a bear would break from its normal habits, or that a bear expert would get killed by a bear, but those things are much much more likely than any of the alternative scenarios. Regarding the idea of a human killer (not sure if anyone proposed that or not), if it was a human killer, it would have had to have been someone who knew Bart, and who knew where he was going. The chances that somebody just stumbled upon him in the wilderness and murdered him are pretty slim. Is there any evidence that anyone Bart knew wanted him dead? Or that Bart was suicidal? I of course don't have the answers to those questions

[@loditx7706]

Thanks!

[@woobiehastelly]

This is a great introductory video into Missing 411. It's an intimidating category to get into. Thank you!