Animated Atrocities 145 || Top 11 Worst Animation Cliches (Part 2)

[@dr.altoclef9255]

I liked what Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs did, where the father loved his son but had trouble relating to him, while his mother was better at relating to people. It affected him and his father both, he wanted to impress his father, but his father was already proud, he just couldn’t express it, which is a common problem.

[@CoolG97]

That dad also wasn't stupid, it's just clear that he had his talents and interests that were different from his son's.

[@dr.altoclef9255]

Exactly- He wasn't tech-savvy, his son was a bumbling genius inventor. I mean, if your kid's made something that can turn water into actual food then yeah, you'd probably be a little overwhelmed by technology yourself.

[@carlbloke8797]

so true

[@brianpguil]

Massive spoilers and the squeal did not do the twist villain thing but instead made the audience know chester is evil but not letting flint know until it is too late

[@nanuqo2006]

Mitchells vs The Machines did this too

[@davidspring4003]

I will just say, the original “joke” of the Minions was actually a good one. The fact they all looked so similar, but Gru could tell them apart easily. It spoke to Gru’s character a little, showing he actually cared enough to learn such things.

[@carlbloke8797]

David Spring that's actually true

[@matti.8465]

David Spring Yeah, their relationship is kind of cute and they show something of the main character other than having them stay in another room being funny in a B plot for comic relief

[@KnakuanaRka]

Yeah, that was nice, but the Minions were never intended as the focus characters they’ve become.

[@WaterShowsProd]

The Minions come from a traditional character class from commedia dell'arte: Zani. Zanis are servants who are so stupid that they can do anything that's required, with due vigilance and humorous consequences, until they spot food at which point they forget completely what they were supposed to be doing. I thought they were done very well in the first 2 Despicable Me films.

[@themiller3940]

I liked then when they were in the first and admittedly second one, it wasnt hammered into the ground

[@springfallendeer7236]

I can name a cartoon where the dad isn't a lumbering idiot. Kim Possible. Her mom was a Brain surgeon and her dad is a Rocket Scientist. He's a bit of a dork, but he's hella smart and supportive of his kids.

[@yanivproselkov4555]

Kim Possible is a fucking fantastic role model, I think. I wouldn't know. I'm a guy so I followed the Ron model of gaining unnatural Kung Fu powers.

[@AvitalShtap]

Yes, and don't forget Greg Universe! A great, realistic, supportive dad - who is NEVER an idiot!

[@darwinxavier3516]

Good role models know no sex/race/age/whatever. I'm a Chinese guy and thought Daria was an amazing role model.

[@Arkalidor]

@@AvitalShtap Eh... Greg Universe is a bit of an idiot, but he knows exactly what kind of idiot he is, and he knows when he can help and when he'd just get in the way.

[@DruidsCalling]

Raven from teen titans had good parents:)

[@TheGoldenDunsparce]

#1 is why Stoic's death in How to Train Your Dragon 2 messed me up so badly. I was waiting for the fake-out, and it never happened. This also makes one aware that the series WILL kill a character off in the next film.

[@Mayeur000Donz]

It's established trust with the audience now. If we see someone die, they're not gonna brush it off later. It's not like Nick Fury literally being pronounced dead on the operating table, and still somehow come through fine (though I probably wouldn't be buying all the deaths in Infinity War anyway....).

[@Lauren_210]

I do commend Disney for taking the risk of killing off a comedic relief character in one of their movies since they rarely do that. Dr. Facilier kills Ray in The Princess and the Frog and he doesn't come back to life and stays dead.

[@AnimeArchaeologist]

The one case of a Disney Death done right as a trope would be Gascogne's from Vandread.

[@Barnowl65]

Also, for the last cliche, I'm so used to a character coming back in Disney movies that I was surprised by the ending of The Princess and the Frog. They killed the firefly character, and he didn't come back! And I cried like a baby! They made me feel sadness for a bug! And he still got a resolution, despite dying! That movie is underrated.

[@ryanc5572]

My favourite Disney movie.

[@kyarabarrion4523]

Mine too

[@slightlystarvingartist3952]

How to Train Your Dragon 2 did it also. It was pretty refreshing, actually.

[@mikebarnes7441]

Love this comment!

[@dracomurdock6349]

For Hans, they literally needed to change one thing- make his smile, from under that boat, into a smirk. A confident, self-satisfied smirk.

[@Lukmendes]

The smile from that scene is pretty much what shows they didn't bother to go for any sort of foreshadowing, hell, the only thing that arguably was a foreshadowing was the lack of a villain (Only some random character was saying his evil plans out loud occasionaly, but he didn't affect the plot at any point), but when you need that instead of actual hints, good hints, then yeah, it's poorly done...

[@aaaah540]

It’s because of his genuine smile that MatPat of Game/Film Theory thinks that Hans isn’t the real villain and instead was brainwashed into trying to kill Elsa and Anna. I really hope he’s right. Imagine a double twist villain and Hans being good all along!

[@luizfelipevbf5567]

@@aaaah540 that actually sounds like them trying to justify their lazyness. Like they heard complaints about him and the lack of foreahadowing/good writing and decided to make a sequel just to justify it.

[@aaaah540]

You’re right, but an attempted fix is better than none at all.

[@josephcavanagh7361]

You mean *hands*

[@slenderminion289]

The third act break-up. One character suddenly gets angry at the other for some random reason, resulting in them running off and/or abandoning the other. A cheap attempt at drama that generally doesn't last for 5 minutes and has no impact on the plot whatsoever. I am so sick and tired of it. Disney is especially guilty of this one.

[@arielruh7773]

I know I hate it ,i think it ruins the movie and the game

[@SRLovesPandas1]

LOL and it's almost always a misunderstanding of some sort which can easily be solved by TALKING ABOUT IT

[@adampkalb]

Mr. Enter didn't even like that when it happened in The Friendship is Magic Movie. But he gave Teen Titans Go To The Movies yes credit for finding a better way to pull it off. March 31, 2020, 6:00pm

[@barnilovrek2045]

Idea:Make a character that is relatable,kill it,and don’t bring it back.Now that’s and idea.(For movies)

[@47ratsinahoodie]

@@barnilovrek2045 I'm currently working on a comic with a bunch of characters I've created and one of them is a relaxed alpaca who loves listening to music and doesn't really care about schoolwork and I'm planning to kill him off sometime in the series. And even though my comic will take place in a world where magic is possible, no one will be able to bring him back cause I want that moment to hit hard and hurt the characters, knowing he'll never come back.

[@underplague6344]

Imagine this: a movie that has a parent like buck cluck but it takes his neglect and abuse seriously and the plot has no aliens or anything, just a child dealing with his abusive father

[@itsjoshua2508]

Seems like a really great dharr man video with 10x the torture.

[@alexvaughan1013]

Chicken Little could've done "cartoon animals dealing with heavy, realistic topics" years before BoJack Horseman!

[@pepperonipizza8200]

The initial plot for Chicken Little was supposed to be Buck Cluck learning from his mistakes as a parent. It was supposed to entirely be about baseball and how his discouragement hurt Chicken Little. There was a deleted scene of the Mayor telling him that failing is natural, but Chicken Little still needs someone to fall back on. I really don't know how the aliens got added.

[@BeanBag343]

I completely agree with your number 1. I work with kids at a daycare, and I am often asked: "When people die do they come back to life?" I'm not even kidding. That is like the most commonly asked question I have to answer for my students. I'm only an aide, so I asked the lead teacher what I should say, and she did something remarkable: she told me to sit the kids down, and tell them the truth. The problem is, I've had students break down and sob over the idea that people never come back. I used The Land Before Time as a way to show them that just because someone has died and can no longer be seen, that person can still be with you if you remember what they taught you. It made a lot of the kids feel better, but yeah it really bothers me that no one has ever explained to them what death is. I get it, they're in kindergarten, but when everything shown to them basically says that people don't die and when they do they magically come back to life, it doesn't prepare them for reality. If kids aren't exposed to reality, they freak out when it comes crashing down on them. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

[@Lauren_210]

Wow that touched me. I aim to work with kids one day as a school counselor and it's definitely not easy to tackle difficult topics towards a young child, but needs to be done to prepare them for life.

[@reasyrandom]

Just show them Coco. That movie has probably one of the best ways to deal with Death that I have ever seen.

[@NylaTheWolf]

I completely agree. If we act like the world is all sunshine and rainbows, it'll only end up hurting them when reality slaps them in the face. Seriously, I feel bad for those children.

[@resortinrocha3387]

Show them The Book Of Life, it's a simple and cute way to tell kids that even if a loved one dies he will still be with you

[@schregen]

So who will end up in heaven? 🍄

[@hopefulhyena3400]

“They’ve been doing this since Tarzan” Uhhhhh Clayton was not a twist villain, he was an ass from the beginning and they made it very clear that he wanted to catch the gorillas and that he didn’t put any value on their lives or the life of any animal.

[@Lauren_210]

Hopeful Hyena That’s exactly what I thought! Technically, I’d say Toy Story 2 is where it all started even though at first I was accepting of it because it was rare for Disney/Pixar to do that. I didn’t think it would become a trend within a decade.

[@darksideofevil13]

Funny thing is in the source material. He was a good guy.

[@Lishadra]

Can you imagine how much more powerful it would've been if Elsa had been the villain the whole time, but Anna continued to chase after her to try and redeem her because she loved her, to the point of dying by her own sister's hand? That would have been so much more memorable and such a powerplay for Disney! But no... we got the not-really villain, the twist villain, and the fakeout death. Sigh.

[@davekendall5936]

Lishadra I think people would've complained about Elsa being a villain. "Disney needs to break this cliche!" And yet, people STILL aren't happy with it when they break this cliche in Frozen. People and their unrealistic expectations and double standards...

[@Andystuff800]

Or keep her as is, but Anna dying turns her into the villain for the sequel.

[@MattMcIrvin]

@@davekendall5936 At the time, Frozen got a lot of praise for doing something different from the traditional Disney villain. In the early stages of development Elsa *was* the villain, and usually the story is described as having gelled when they decided not to do that. Of course, all that plot did was cement the twist villain as a new Disney cliche (I guess Wreck-It Ralph had had one the previous year). Tangled actually did it better, by using dramatic irony from the beginning: we all know Mother Gothel is a villain but Rapunzel doesn't. Still has the death fakeout though.

[@YamatoFukkatsu]

@@MattMcIrvin That's something I found interesting with a lot of Disney movies, actually. We all know from the way the movie is advertised that Ursula or Jafar or Scar is the movie's main villain, but then we actually see the movie, and towards the beginning, we see the protagonists casually chatting with these characters like they're old acquaintances (which they are, actually). It isn't until later on that their true motives are made clear and they become the cackling fiends that we see in the commercials. As a kid, this seemed like a MAJOR subversion from the usual "I'm default evil just so the good guy has somebody to fight" villains.

[@Justanothermusicnerdxo]

Yes but then we couldn’t use Elsas nature about being hidden, and the freedom of being open as a metaphor about sexuality. And when you get down to it.. that’s sort of a main element of the movie. To demonize someone is a metaphor for LGBT... probably in bad taste of the modern times. I.E. no need for Jafar two.

[@MrInitialMan]

I'd like to hold up Sesame Street as one who handled death properly in "I'll Miss You Mr. Hooper"--when actor Will Lee died, so did his character Mr. Hooper.

[@tylermannor4290]

Yeah, the entire cast was experiencing the same loss as the viewers

[@spooderman6312]

it was so depressing seeing big bird's reaction

[@paladinjones1833]

Bob and Linda Belcher are probably my favorite animated parents. They love and support their kids, even when the kids' interests are weird or off-putting. Linda especially kind of reminds me of my mom in that way.

[@blakchristianbale]

Paladin Jones although in the weaker episodes they're basically just a reverse of the stereotype.

[@DragonKazooie89]

The only ones I can think of are the ones that are usually single parents like Lois from As Told by Ginger (Divorce) and Greg from Steven Universe (widower because Rose gave up her physical form so that Steven could exist)

[@heskymarky]

Spongebob's parents are pretty harmless

[@pleasedislikemyvideo2101]

but the problem with that is they don't play a very big role in the series.

[@tiffany-chan1235]

Paladin Jones Honestly, I love Greg from Steven Universe and Scrooge McDuck!

[@stephenbrown4698]

I’m honestly surprised that the “if someone picks on you and is of the opposite sex, then they like you” trope didn’t make it. Ignoring Enter’s feelings on the matter, which he has shared before, this trope is very damaging. Bullying is bullying, whether a boy or a girl does it. If you dismiss someone being bullied physically or mentally as the bully having a crush on them, then that’s gonna have negative consequences on their self esteem. They might either believe that the bully legitimately likes them or they might lose a great sense of self worth because no one is addressing their problem with the bully. But hey, according to Ms. Teacher Person, I REALLY like this trope. Edit: I’m flattered by the attention this comment has been getting. Not just the amount of likes, but also the stories that you all have to share. For anyone who has gone through something like this, know that there are people who know that you matter and will take you and your problems seriously. It’s nice to see people come together and talk about this kind of experience. 😊

[@JCBro-yg8vd]

Stephen Brown I was not even aware that was a cliche. I think it comes from a misunderstanding about why people in love still fight sometimes.

[@stephenbrown4698]

JCBro2014 That’s not exactly what I mean. Like, let’s say a girl is picking on a boy. The trope says that the girl does that because she likes the boy. Prominent examples include Cindy from Jimmy Neutron and Helga from Hey Arnold.

[@stephenbrown4698]

darkrage6 That sounds more like teasing among friends to me. That kind of thing is fine, but there’s a big difference between teasing among friends and bullying.

[@stephenbrown4698]

darkrage6 Hmm...that is odd. I don’t know what to say.

[@Reckno64]

It always kinda bothered me in Hey Arnold. I liked Helga and Arnold, but I wish Arnold stood up for himself more.

[@joanahkirk338]

Hans could've worked if instead of "haha! I'm the villain" he actually decided to kiss Anna, nothing happened, so he gets upset, giving up on saving her and then with some convincing from the duke of weaselton, he gives in to the idea that killing Elsa would be the only way to save the kingdom. It would still be a surprise villain without being an entirely new character

[@MelodicDragon97]

Jonah Kirk You just fixed the movie

[@EternalDahaka]

+Adventurous Adventurer Augustus Frozen was supposed to be an adaptation of the Snow Queen. I'm not sure how the original script would have went, but changing the entire plot over a song is stupid.

[@imthesadguyduh]

RHONDA HOWARD so sympathizing with villains is bad now??? Like I mean villains are supposed to be relatable due to to their flaws. Villains weren’t born evil. And I did see how harsh she was on the original story boards but like it would’ve made Elsa have even more depth as a character. Man the writers missed a perfect opportunity

[@GoldStorm07]

Nature vs nurture. Plenty of villains are bad because of their circumstances and how their personalities were impacted, plenty of other villains have malevolence inherent to them. Just as in real life.

[@azurai3934]

This would be much better than what we got.

[@NylaTheWolf]

I'm surprised there was nothing about "Babbling because you're in love" cliche.

[@petormaculan5424]

29:52

[@adampkalb]

@Hannah Papernick-Yudin I know. Enter already talked enough about that in Animated Atrocities #116 and #121. April 13, 2020, 9:26pm

[@PinkPenPlays]

I kept thinking people did that when I was a kid or that I’d do that. Now I just get a random stutter when I’m nervous cuz I thought that was also something. Plus the “if they tease or hurt you that means they like you” cliche. That’s hurt me so much where I’d think that a partner doin things to harm me in any way meant they like me when really it’s a red flag telling me to gtfo or I’d be locked in for a while and believe it’s normal when it’s anythin but normal.

[@lordravenblade]

@marianne mccrank I want to say his mouth was numbed somehow rather than it just being nervous mumbling. Could be remembering a different movie though

[@acerenalds9464]

Lisa: Yes a girl wants to play football Flanders: good we already have four on the team Best stereo breaking ever!

[@christopherwallace7903]

Ace Renalds ?

[@christopherwallace7903]

Phillip Thanks

[@wahlflower3517]

I didn't mind Moana's chicken because at least he was a SILENT comedic side character. I can stand most comedic characters as long as they don't spew minion gibberish or spit pop culture references.

[@Double-R-Nothing]

Press Start His comic relief was done without the use of dialogue, and was conveyed almost completely visually. When he did make noises, it was downplayed because Alan Tudyk knows what he's doing. Yes, Hei-Hei was voiced by the Duke of Weaselton and K-2SO. He's like Josh Gad, but funny.

[@Double-R-Nothing]

Press Start What exactly annoyed you about him?

[@carlbloke8797]

Mr. Snarky ikr that's awesome

[@carlbloke8797]

Press Start that's just the traile

[@onetimeanswer]

He definitely tops off my list in terms of personally tolerating the trope. If for no other reason, than testing SO well in focus groups that he actually upstages and completely replaces the only other "cute pet" character that was even more superfluously added in.

[@CoolG97]

Hans's villain "reveal" is one of the main reasons why I prefer Tangled, Mother Gothal may as well have a sign over her head flashing "I'm Evil" but she was entertaining and given screen time to show how bad she was. Elsa was more a villain than Hans was in Frozen, Elsa doomed her kingdom to become a sub-zero version of Pompei but a song about how she has NO GUILT over it and a shiny dress makes up for it. Also, while browsing the WCHB page for Frozen on TV Tropes I kinda prefer some of the ideas they had when she was planned to be evil, but I guess Female Villains only need reasons to be evil in bad remakes and re-imaginings. Also, Tangled's fake-out death was used to set up a shout out to the original fairy tale.

[@EternalDahaka]

To be fair, Frozen made it clear Elsa didn't know about creating an eternal winter before Anna told her. Still, I agree. Gaining control over her powers is one thing, but there was never any consequences for her even accidentally causing that, and nobody even cared she had powers which sort of defeats the entire initial conflict of the movie. Frozen was originally supposed to be an adaptation of the Snow Queen. They changed the plot and her character when they wrote the "Let it Go" song. I wish they would have stuck with the original version.

[@CoolG97]

EternalDahaka Yeah, that first part doesn't excuse Let It Go being held as "empowering" when plot wise it's almost a literal version of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

[@duncanm4061]

You mean ymnv?

[@CoolG97]

Devil's Advocate I meant the "What could've been" page.

[@acerenalds9464]

They could have totally had five minutes about a scene writing to his 12 brothers telling him he will soon be the leader of the duchy of (whatever kingdom frozen is) and made him a Von Habsburg style villian.

[@kyragthecat177]

You forgot the about the • popular mean girl (mostly blonde hair) • the best friend that is a girl and also a love interest • the character who mean/beats up/abuse the main character but also love interest • the Bart and Lisa siblings relationship • something that has *Z* at the end to look cool • the prince and the pauper story

[@catalinamelo9932]

GOD I hate the second one. I had/have male friends, it's not all pyjama party girly crap for fucks sake

[@adrianharper9462]

I agree with the first and the third one. I despise overly aggressive and downright mean female characters in animation (both in animation and Japanese anime), and I hate how popular they have gotten over the years. Maybe it's my overly sensitive nature (and my bad experience with an abusive girlfriend who I dumped months later), but I just can't stand these characters. The first example is annoying sure, but there are some exceptions such as Pacifica Northwest and Yumiko Miura, but a lot of them fall under the same tropes. But the third one really gets on my nerves so much.

[@kyragthecat177]

Update • the trio that stars 2 boys and a girl either if that girl is the love interest or the sister of one of the 2 boys (I started to notice the trend and it pisses me off either show/movies I like and it's a ship I like or not and it's over use trope) • almost every sci-fi theme either it's for the entire series/movie or a one time episode is a comedy, exceptions are star wars and star trek

[@theadventurechu4546]

There's also the Damsel in Distress.

[@dcb99filmz]

you're telling me Babs Bunny didn't pull the second one off well?

[@slashbash1347]

4:51 Well, there is Treasure Planet, where Jim's father wasn't dead; he just left them! Which was interesting, because in Treasure ISLAND, his father actually DID die.

[@diegorojas2049]

Not to mention that in Treasure Planet, Jim not having a dad fitted into his character

[@nadie516]

And the dynamic that long silver and jimmy made it really significant

[@theadventurechu4546]

And not to mention the fact that when the father left, Jim became SEVERELY depressed.

[@hopecat7466]

Knuckles from sonic boom may be a little slow, but he is philosophically inclined

[@hopecat7466]

and grab you Big Fucking Guns, because that's the only thing that can kill the emoji movie in one hit!

[@Lambda_Ovine]

Too bad the game is fucking terrible.

[@hopecat7466]

To Athánatos let it R I P

[@Rebellion_009]

To Athánatos it’s the reverse of what usually happens

[@IrishPhoenix]

I also wouldn't call Clayton from Tarzan a twist villain. Throughout most of the movie it's deliberately made pretty obvious.

[@Lauren_210]

Agreed. I was 3 years old when Tarzan came out and even I was able to know that Clayton would be the villain from start to finish. His jerky, posh attitude and actions were very clear. In reality, Toy Story 2 was the one that started off this trend, though at the time was a very rare concept for Disney and Pixar films to do (also funny how Toy Story 2 came out the same year as Tarzan).

[@brifox]

Honestly, I'd say Clayton is my least favorite of all of the Disney villains, period. He's just Gaston without any of the charisma or motivation that made Gaston a compelling villain. It really bugs me because Clayton has one of the best deaths of all of the villains, but it feels wasted on such a flat character.

[@Lauren_210]

@@brifox I agree with you on that, though there are other Disney villains I view worse than Clayton, but he isn't the best either (and yeah it would have been even better to have saved that kind of death on a more interesting villain). Despite the Renaissance era having the best balance between interesting heroes and villains for the majority of their films, there were some films during the end of that era that didn't quite reach that level of interesting/engaging villains like him and Shan Yu from Mulan.

[@brifox]

@@Lauren_210 And then there were cases like Hercules and Princess and the Frog where the villain was both the best (most enjoyable) and worst (had little to nothing to do with the main conflict/hero's arc) part of the movie. Shen Yu being just a flat scary videogame boss I was ok with, since the main conflict in Mulan was much more of hero vs society than anything else. Pretty much every main character in the movie is an antagonist to Mulan up until about 5 minutes before the end, so the movie didn't really need a super interesting and charismatic villain like Scar or Jafar.

[@kyleguajardo]

I also think Atlantis didn't really have a twist villain per say. It was more that Milo was unaware that the company he traveled with were the crusader mercenaries that they were, and most of them realized their ways at the end.

[@serenatsukino5252]

With Ariel's father, I don't think that he was too close minded, but rather he was too protective and didn't want her to get hurt.

[@dontspikemydrink9382]

well, too close minded of non seapeople I guess

[@generalstorm8381]

I agree with you, especially since in one scene after he destroys her collection, and sees her crying, he actually feels bad, unlike most of the other parents in Disney movies.

[@ChaoticButterfly]

@@dontspikemydrink9382" Well... when you take into account that humans killed his wife/her mother... and she's the most reminiscent _of_ the mother... it makes sense.

[@briarrosegael2015]

Why the hell doesn't he just his magical trident to turn Eric into a merman, that would have been interesting...

[@catalinamelo9932]

Like Marge Simpson, Buck and many other parents

[@Frikiman_H]

25:44 "This is what makes it more devastating than, say, going to the bathroom; even though both can be insanely painful". This is probably the best toilet humor joke I've ever heard. By far.

[@GatorRay]

Frikiman IKR

[@cameoshadowness7757]

Frikiman yup.

[@carlbloke8797]

so true

[@zenoftw]

I definitely wouldn't say Meg's "fakeout death" is a good example of this trope. Her apparent demise and revival were an important plot point and stepping stone for the character of Hercules. I mean you're dealing with the concept of divinity and true heroism, and I feel that the scene in the River Styx was perfectly handled.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

zenoftw it also gave a way for Hercules to put Hades into his doom

[@retosius7962]

agreed, when dealing with gods death is not truly set in stone like it is in real life, and in a story where it actually relates to the plot, you should go with the revival of a character.

[@supermal112233]

True, we are talking about a movie with an afterlife, gods, demigods and magical objects/powers and all that.

[@WaterShowsProd]

Yes, I didn't see Meg's death as a fake-out but rather the final obstacle the hero had to overcome in the climax of the story; before the dance party scene.

[@david2869]

That just shows that the fake death trope is older than Jesus. Enough already!

[@KirbyKips]

I love how Sonic Boom is so self aware. It’s like they’re roasting everybody even their own franchise.

[@ZbJeeBies]

KirbyKips _FUCKING. _*_GENIUS!_*

[@KirbyKips]

This show deserves an award.

[@halfdemonprince]

I don’t like it because what they’re saying is, “What where doing it stupid we know it’s stupid but we’re doing it anyway, and you can’t insult us because we beat you to the punch.”

[@KirbyKips]

40 XDDD Well maybe that’s one way of looking at it.

[@diegorojas2049]

One scene I loved was when they trolled all of the fanboys and bad fanfictions writers

[@pundertalefan4391]

Yeah, The Sonic Boom cartoon deserves more credit. EDIT: Wow. That's a lot of likes. XD thanks.

[@gman4736]

@GoldenMinecart they called out the fanbase for the fanart

[@Mothlord03]

Yes, people thought it'd be way worse than it was

[@saiyanscaris6530]

@@Mothlord03 honestly its my favorite sonic cartoon series

[@saiyanscaris6530]

also sonic boom cartoon actually did the body swap episode right

[@CrasherX2000]

I absolutely ADORE the Sonic Boom cartoon

[@StrongRex]

Lotso from Toy Story wasn't a twist villain. At least, not in the way you describe the others, in which the twist happens closer to the end of the film. He appears good for the first two scenes he's in, and his "twist" happens early enough that we can accept him as an actual, formidable villain. He's even given a backstory as to why he went the evil route. Clayton from Tarzan I don't believe is a twist villain. His motivation is pretty obvious to the audience from the beginning, just not to the characters until he betrayed them. Which leads me to ask, what made him think he was going to get away with that? What part of his plan gave him immunity from staging a mutiny and HIJACKING A SHIP?? I'm pretty sure they were still hanging people for that in that time period.

[@carlbloke8797]

ikr

[@harlannguyen4048]

StrongRex Funny that you said that people would have been hanged during that period...

[@brifox]

Twist villain or not, Clayton is one of my least favorite Disney villains period. He's not particularly clever, charismatic, motivated, or even all that competent of a villain. It was like they took Gaston, stripped him of everything that made him interesting or compelling as a character, and just doubled down on all of his "jerk" aspects. It also really bugs me that such a bland and boring character got one of the best deaths in all of Disney. Accidentally hanging himself is something that should have gone to someone more despicable like Frollo, so we get a stronger feeling of catharsis.

[@pinkiepierocks6360]

i agree honestly most people probably don't think too much of it since you know it's involving toys but lotso was a surprisingly dark villain in pixar i mean he tortures the other toys in the caterpillar room he lied to big baby telling him daisy didn't love him anymore and he nearly sent andy's toys to their deaths even after they just saved his life

[@maddieclarke258]

I think twist villains work best when the audience knows about their villainy before the hero does, even if it's just for a second before the hero makes the realization. It really builds up the tension towards the inevitable betrayal (if done well), allows the audience to connect with a villain for longer, and simultaneously keeps the heroes in the dark. I don't think people want entire scenes of exposition and the villain announcing their evil plan, but a simple look or a sentence of dialogue that clues the audience in earlier is usually pretty fun.

[@bionichuteagain2583]

Also Hans is worse than Bellwether because there are actual clues to Bellwether being evil, Hans is just a twist for twist's sake

[@reasyrandom]

It's the other way around. Hans had decent foreshadowing, while Bellwether's was minimal.

[@rachelm.4741]

I personally prefer to see Hans as an adaptation of the Mirror from the original fairy tale. The Mirror, created by the Devil, shows the ugliness in anything or anyone that's in front of it. I see Hans as the Mirror because there is a mirror theme around him: some shots in the Love Is An Open Door sequence are symmetrical; when Hans shows "his true colours", he's looking at his reflection in the window; and most importantly, he mirrors some of the characters' behaviour (he's nice and quirky with Anna, he's strict and commanding with Weaselton, he reflects Elsa's fear of being a monster, etc.).

[@PatheticApathetic]

Or, if the rumors are true, then the Hans twist was only because they decided against Elsa being the villain during production, so they just didn’t have time to actually develop Hans as the villain

[@vaymullins428]

To be fair about Hans’s poor character development leading to an anticlimactic villain reveal, the original story goes in a completely different direction so they kinda had to scrap up what they could to create a solid conflict that would require actual suspense to reach a conclusion rather than a heartfelt conversation and a good cry.

[@zooemperor3954]

There is a way to make Hans have foreshadowing as a villain. In the beginning, when he’s knocked into the water, here’s what they should’ve done: make his smile a mean smirk instead

[@HigginsIsHere]

"Oh my fucking good, how are you two even worse separate?!" 😂😂😂😂

[@jamesspinner7764]

There is at least one example of the "they aint coming back" rule. Up. It practically starts with a character dying and ends with another.

[@Lauren_210]

Also Finding Nemo with Marlin's wife and 399 of his children

[@nitromagilou597]

Another example is Ray from The Princess & The Frog.

[@Lauren_210]

Matthew Cool And Tarzan’s biological human parents and Kala and Kerchak’s biological son, all whom were taken away by Sabor.

[@adampkalb]

@@Lauren_210 Yet Finding Nemo still wastes half a minute in the climax with Nemo playing dead after he passed out after breaking a net with other fish trapped in it. April 6, 2020, 10:23pm

[@robbieking4070]

In terms of the spooky stop motion trope: *Kubo and the Two Strings* a whimsical, imaginative epic adventure

[@kittychu7]

igor caique that's not the main focus of the movie.

[@Adamguy2003]

It had plenty of spooky moments, though.

[@kittychu7]

igor caique yes but a lot of the movie is focused on the heroes and family.

[@IrishPhoenix]

I feel like the way to make twist villains work is to have them still feel like the same character throughout. I'd consider Charles Muntz from Up a good example of this. He becomes the villain sometime after we first meet him, but he still feels like the same character afterwards. As Carl's idol, as the neutral character we meet and as the villain, his intention to get the bird and go through any measure possible to do so is consistent.

[@Lauren_210]

"You can't count on anyone, especially your heroes." - Syndrome (The Incredibles) It seems like this has become one of Pixar's mottos. This also happens too in Coco with Ernesto (Miguel's idol) turning out to be the villain the whole time and did fucked up shit to get to where he was and was able to hide and cover the evidence for about 80-90 years...that's a new record.

[@starkamitheater721]

I'm glad that Mr Enter brought up King Candy/Turbo from Wreck It Ralph because I see him to be an example of a twist villain done right. However, I wish he had gone more into detail on what made him work: 1. There are little hints dropped throughout the film of King Candy not being what he seems, all without raising a red flag. Examples being him recognizing Ralph when they never previously met, looking different from the style of the other Sugar Rush characters, the announcer's voice being altered when announcing his name, etc. 2. In the end, Turbo came off as a more evil person than Hans, Bellwether and Yokai, considering that he got two games unplugged because of his own selfishness. His actions of trying to kill Vanellope and Ralph didn't feel like it came out of nowhere. I won't talk about Bellwether or Yokai since Bellwether did drop a few good hints and Yokai was designed to be sympathetic, but I will say this about Hans. He's honestly the worst twist villain I've ever seen in a film. Period. The only hint that's dropped is that he mentions that he wants to find a place in life during his duet with Anna, but that's it. Other than that, he spends most of the film caring for the kingdom, bonding with Anna and even stopped a guard from killing Elsa. Hans would've worked better if Frozen didn't have any villain, and he just believed that killing Elsa would make the eternal winter go away and save everyone. Also, I don't consider Smiler to be a twist villain, since her psychopathic and untrustworthy behavior was shown to be obvious in the trailers and her introduction.

[@WadeAlma]

Starkami Theater I like Hans. You don't need to be obvious to be a villian. Some people hide their intent or thoughts very well. Hans was in a foreign kingdom just to gain it. Why would he act like a villan? Hans had no power until the end. It isn't until you give a man power that their true colors show.

[@carlbloke8797]

WadeAlma uh no you have to see them desire power to see how evil they are

[@WadeAlma]

Carl Bloke Just because you desire power doesn't mean you're evil. There are many people with power who help people. Babysitters have power over the kids they watch but that doesn't mean they're evil.

[@carlbloke8797]

WadeAlma I'm not saying people in power are also evil but Hans doesn't convey anything to the audience that his intentions were pure and his twist felt tacked on

[@WadeAlma]

Carl Bloke But you don't really know who's your friend or enemy. I like that Hans isn't displaying his evil. How do you know someone's true intent? To find out Hans doesn't care about her in this story was pretty big. Her sister avoids her for fear of her safety. Hans follows her because she's naive. The lesson could be interpreted as be careful who trust. You never know who's the wolf.

[@92manix]

I can name good parents: Jimmy Neutron's parents. More specifically, Hugh Neutron's the "dumbass dad", but Hugh is shown to *actually* care for his son. It's pretty clear that he cares for his Jimbo. He is definitely at least somewhat competent and the only real times that he is distracted is when he chases other things like pie or ducks. Still, that's much better than the Fairly Odd Parents.

[@Lauren_210]

Goofy is also a good example of the "dumbass dad" done right. Yes, he can be clumsy and make errors, but he does genuinely care for Max. In A Goofy Movie, he was willing to do anything to make sure his teen son didn't end up as a delinquent (especially out of the fear regarding the electric chair, which would scare the shit out of any parent coming from the principal about their child).

[@MrChaotic4]

Marlin being overprotective of Nemo is completely justified. Coral and all of Nemo's unborn siblings were eaten and Nemo is all Marlin has left of them. I'd be a little overprotective of him myself if it were me.

[@supernova4226]

Hiens doofinshmerts need I say more

[@maxleon61702]

Some facts.

[@robertdelrosario8176]

What about Bob and Linda? Despite their flaws, they seem to show genuine love and care for their children.

[@blazerthedelphox]

Whoever thought up that line for Knuckles needs a raise.

[@softcrab3361]

Blazer the Delphox+ give that guy the biggest raise!

[@NishaPerson]

The Sonic Boom cartoon has a lot of lines like that in Season 2, its actually a really funny show now. Doing stuff like political humor and satire, its pretty great.

[@SpecialBeam]

23:41 You using that clip from Spongebob put the BIGGEST smile on my face. I haven't heard that in YEARS lmaooo

[@andrewdotmp4]

SBCannon dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum

[@kylesoler4139]

Has anyone remixed that yet?

[@djshy3]

Kyle Soler kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3_Pn35si7KgebM

[@hrama17]

hoopla

[@ColossalRay]

I was a tomboy growing up and I sucked at sports and generally lacked interest in them. There is more than one way to be a tomboy! I liked climbing trees, skateboarding, camouflage patterns, torturing barbies and having short hair. Who cares if I sucked at football?

[@LoversComet]

Chell Ray XD. Same.

[@irregulargamer1352]

No one does. I've seen plenty of guys suck at everything athletic. You're already steps above them.

[@usermcskull4713]

Wait, TORTURING BARBIES??! WHAT THE FUCK?!

[@ColossalRay]

Power of L not literally. Just cutting off their hair, removing parts of their face with nail polish remover (my favourite was turning her into an ugly pirate) and hiding her head, legs and arms from my sister. I liked messing them up because people kept buying them for me when I wasn't interested. Plus, it was funny making something beautiful into Jimmy coat hanger leg. I gave her sick tats and left one in a drain for years when I launched it out the window and couldn't get it back lmao

[@usermcskull4713]

Chell Ray Ooh, I thought you just got a knife and than, y'know..stabbed them a lot

[@librasuperstar3779]

I remember hearing somewhere that the reason Alex Hirsch made the primary adult character in Gravity Falls a great uncle was because a great uncle letting the kids do whatever would make way more sense then actual parents doing that. There’s even a joke about this in the wax figure episode (something along the lines of “a responsible parent would have an issue with this...good thing I’m an uncle”) plus grunkle Stan does actually know about the dangerous parts of gravity falls and in many episodes actively fights alongside dipper and Mabel. He actually cares about them. Another reason why Gravity Falls is great

[@isaacstevenson2960]

That’s true. It’s kinda nice to see two kids not deal with parental problems for a change. And just for that and more, I’ll always love and respect Grunkel Stan(as well as Alex for bringing alive one of animations best shows)

[@nataliau.9322]

1. Every female character ever looking like she was designed by Glen Keane 2. Every 3d movie having the same smooth, faux-cinematic, resin-y type of animation with focus on realistic textures instead of original movement or character design (we get it, you can render utrarealistic fur/hair/snow now, nobody cares) 3. Every movie being a fast-paced musical family-friendly comedy or, in case of *edgier* pieces, some kind of stupid, gratuitously offensive, unfunny garbage you're supposed to watch while stoned, oh wait, you already adressed that my bad

[@mayflower6403]

Do you find anything inherently wrong with Glen Keane's art style, or do you just want something new.

[@nataliau.9322]

The latter, because as much as i'm tired of it the style itself is actually great, it wouldn't have stuck otherwise. It's the mindless self-plagiarism that made it lose its charm, imo.

[@the13throse]

Inner Workings looks worse, though. Exaggerated features are good to an extent, but when you make a character 90% hips or upper body, it just looks lazy.

[@1fishmob]

11:05 the reason why the genie, timon and pumbaa, and characters like that work is because they actually HAD a reason to exist.

[@scottgaultney]

And they weren't just "comedy comedy comedy" all the time. They were allowed to have dramatic moments, show anger, fear, sadness, betrayal, and insecurity. They were actual characters who were more than just joke machines because the writers need someone to inject unneeded/unwanted 'humor'.

[@CuteAnimeGirl]

The Pokemon death thing was foreshadowed in the Japanese version by a story told that Pokemon tears can bring someone back to life. It's still bullshit but they foreshadowed it so it didn't come out of nowhere

[@fieratheproud]

Wait, wasn't that a thing in the 4Kids version too? I distinctly remember that being explained. Or was the Finnish dub for that movie actually translated from the Japanese...? no, no, they used the English dub names... weird.

[@Evilriku13]

I miss Takeshi Shudou, esp because I recently watched all eps of Pokemon where he did worked at. And besides 2-3 I really see that he did big things there, thematic wise. And that in most of these episodes Team Rocket weren't villains but assistents and/or are cooperative with Ash & friends. I like also how they give Team Rockets more character with this episodes, and how worldbuilding is something unique to the anime, and by some looks of it, Nintendo had a problem that Mr Shudou did things of his own/had his own vision of the anime/pokemon, as he wrote interesting Details about that in his manga to the anime, explaining what happened to Ash's dad, or why Gary Oak got cheerleaders and why Brock is always looking for a women, which sadly was never explained in the anime itself, etc.!

[@TheRedVoyager]

As someone who doesn't like Ash Ketchum after the first few episodes as a character and doesn't like the show but loves the games, him coming back to life frustrates me.

[@RavenStarMedia]

@@fieratheproud That was definitely in the 4kids version as well, where a story of Pokemon tears was mentioned during the storm. It was more explicit though in the accompanying short The Origin of Mewtwo (where we see Mewtwo when he was still developing as a kid), but that was cut from the theatrical release because of the controversial aspect of human cloning that was being discussed in America at the time, so us US kids didn't get to see it until the DVD for Mewtwo Returns came out a few years later.

[@LegoandmoviereviewsBlogspot]

28:46 I was honestly shocked when Bing Bong in Inside Out died and never came back. I thought the fake-out was definitely going to be pulled. That just makes me respect the movie so much more.

[@deadpoolnerd]

I never understood the trope of showing look its a female doing male things but better she's a badass... why not just write a badass character who just so happens to be female

[@markcobuzzi826]

In other words, how Samus Aran was portrayed before Metroid Other M?

[@aeroblu2002]

I think Vriska Serket from homestuck is a good example of the badass who just so happens to be female

[@chadpeterson5698]

@@markcobuzzi826 and what she became again in future games

[@markcobuzzi826]

@@chadpeterson5698 Yup. Thank the gaming gods for Metroid Dread.

[@NewYorkStar9]

I would watch the hell out of “the Tampon Movie”

[@erickmartinez5631]

New York Star it would be bloody funny

[@WiiMusicBooster]

"It would be BLOODY funny" Hahahah. Oh I'm blissfully unaware of how females work.

[@toribirdz]

I thought Kubo and the Two Strings was super interesting in the way it handled parenthood and death and in how it did stop-motion so beautifully without being Halloweeny.

[@Percival917]

ichibi drop Also, the way it handled it's comic relief character, the beetle guy, as well as how his role went SO FAR BEYOND THAT.

[@angeloffish]

ichibi drop Yeah, I agree. It is a great film that I am glad that I found.

[@pokechatter]

And the parents evolve beyond the nagging mother/idiot father cliche, though we don’t get to see it for long.

[@murciadoxial8056]

nothing says breaking the cliches like turning the mom into an annoying momkey...

[@reasyrandom]

I don't think ParaNorman was a bad movie. Sure it had characters like the Bully, the neglectful father, the bitchy sister and the dumb jock, but it also had good commentary on society and neglectful parenting is part of society. Also, neither of these cliché characters were bad characters, they may have started of as bland, but grew throughout the movie and it felt kind of natural. It's not the next Coraline, but it's enjoyable.

[@wofi784]

You’re the first person I’ve seen who doesn’t like the “eternal kid” aspect of characters. Thank you, glad I’m not the only one.

[@nachoalvarez7171]

Say hello to the Pokemon comiunity.

[@adampkalb]

That is unfortunately the point of Twelve Forever and Meghan Walsh Madsen McCarthy. April 6, 2020, 6:30pm

[@emperorgameling5064]

@@adampkalb Nobody cares about the time you made your comments

[@pop4843]

For #1 (spoilers), I have personal experience confirming Mr. Enter's speech about how this can hurt a kid. My mother died when I was a little kid. I watched some of these movies when I still wasn't over it, and I felt bitter and awful that she couldn't just *poof-* be back. It felt that I was cheated out of something that was supposed to rightfully happen. Doing that cliche in your movie can genuinely hurt a child, especially one who's younger- i.e., a seven year old.

[@gem157a]

I seriously thought that #1 would be the ¨Mumbling Crush¨ cliche. You´ve talked about it A LOT.

[@kyletowers9662]

i was expecting "overly long gags" due to #1's intro

[@bearowl4101]

I was expecting the 'secret fact that the show will never tell you' cliché, like the Krabby Patty formula from SpongeBob SquarePants or Zuko's mum's whereabouts from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

[@PonmonofNuggetor]

I was expecting ‘Status Quo is God’ to be 1

[@jamainegardner4193]

these should've been on the list

[@itayarbel2008]

I thought it would be true love's kiss saving the day, but i guess that kinda stopped being a thing recently.

[@mariokarter13]

Maybe parents in animation are terrible because animators have terrible parents, so they lash out at their parents while relating to children who also have terrible parents.

[@kyletowers9662]

maybe their parents didn't approve of their career choices

[@LikaLaruku]

The dumbass stubborn dad & lazy/clumsy/space-case/nagging mom trope was pretty common in non-animated sitcoms when I was growing up. From The Munsters all the way up to Married with Children.

[@Enchie]

Lieutenant BaconWaffles Other then maybe anime and comics, where isn't it common?

[@Scream_Lord]

I can think of quite a few good examples of parents in animation that don't fall into the nag and idiot trope. K.O's mom Carla in OK K.O Greg from Steven Universe ......That's all I got from the top of my head.

[@Enchie]

Pee Wee Didi Saka and Katara's father. You named the others I can think of.

[@AndrewsMagicandMore]

Funny thing about Homer is that he wasn't always a "Jerkass" dad; in fact, one of the earliest episodes of the show had him asking Lisa why she "refused to play dodgeball because she was sad". There have been instances when Homer did acknowledge his kids and would do anything for his family.

[@debater452]

Homer hasn't been a jerk for two decades

[@viewtifulmorannp6185]

You know, Diego from Ice Age was going to die in the first movie (Take the scene when he tells the gang to catch up with the humans but without him coming back), but they changed it because in the first screening the children cried over his death when the movie ended. I think the movie would've been more solid with that ending and probably would've prevented the dumb-ass sequels (at least the second movie was good).

[@jinhunterslay1638]

*FUUUCK* children!!!! They ruin perfectly good endings!

[@viewtifulmorannp6185]

I think they wanted to but they were forced by the producers to change it.

[@imthesadguyduh]

I like Diego but like dude. You’re right about the sequels. Waaaaaay too many.

[@TeasilaNova]

They couldn't let Deigo rest in peace. Aint that a son of a bitch.

[@tritter15]

Keep in mind that this IS supposed to be a kid’s movie, so changing it because the target demographic didn’t like it is actually justified.

[@PlayerZeroStart]

I think Zootopia having a twist villain made perfect sense, as that movie was more of a mystery than other Disney movies.

[@Max-qd5lq]

Diamond The Hedgehog it did feel more like a Sherlock story than a princess movie

[@StephonZeno]

It made sense, but the twist villain was just very underwhelming.

[@LoversComet]

Diamond The Hedgehog Hmmm... Yeah...

[@DeadAccount33]

Diamond The Hedgehog even if it gets old i kind of see it giving the moral that even the nicest person you know could be wearing a mask to hide evil.

[@CalebCraft10]

Diamond The Hedgehog The problem is that they treat her like a generic villain rather than a legitimate psychopath / disturbed individual. It felt corny.

[@squidleystudios277]

That comment from Knuckles was surprisingly smart.

[@PonmonofNuggetor]

Squidley Studios Ironic how one of the stupidest characters in history can completely destroy any ‘breaking of stereotypes’ argument, but that was probably intentional

[@FixTheWi-Fi]

Worst part is that was the joke.

[@squidleystudios277]

A Person With A Name Yeah. It's sad that it's the only reason they'd let him be smart.

[@Rockymann27]

Most of knuckles incarnations dont have him as being stupid. He was a bit dense at times, but never stupid.

[@fkostyuk]

Rockymann27 Yeah he's more of the mysterious loner type

[@theCodyReeder]

Bet you cant wait for half the characters to come back in Infinity War part 2.

[@haroldbalzac6336]

Cody'sLab What.

[@dreamkind]

I... wasn't expecting you to say that, let alone be on this video? But hello anyway! Big fan of your channel my dude

[@unexpectedinquisition4862]

At least we’ve been given a year to prepare for it. I just hope that my prediction comes true and they kill all the go avengers to soften the blow, in which case I think it could be totally salvageable.

[@gman4736]

Like they would KEEP spider-man dead!

[@Icerope-km9lu]

HAHAHA Marvel scenes should’ve been montaged during the last five minutes of the video

[@Changeling9000]

Here are some of my hated cliches: Kids that are written like teenagers/adults One-note bullies Making classic characters modern and hip Stereotype Siblings (bratty little sister, big brother bully etc.) Playing popular songs instead of actual music during certain scenes in movies

[@thedreamcatcherOMG]

OddBall64 Can you tell me what is meant by ‘one-note’?

[@Changeling9000]

OverHillDreams Bland and stereotypical.

[@taiasoncole8148]

Ugh I hate the kids that are written like teenagers or adults... It is why I love shows where the kids actually felt like kids. (Lilo and Stitch, Bob's Burgers)

[@carlbloke8797]

the thing is though you guys have to consider that they are still cartoons and as such they are allowed to exaggerate. I doubt babies have the ability to talk at such a young age like in Rugrats but that's what makes the show enjoyable, I doubt any kid has the ability to lift houses upside down like Ed from Ed Edd n Eddy but that doesn't halt the enjoyment of the show much like how Arnold and Arthur are portrayed as the straight men in their respective shows they're still good characters and can be relatable to kids with situations kids are likely to encounter. Cartoons have always been about exaggeration so it's not out of place to have characters like Steven Universe or Ben 10(original one) who are children to go on interstellar adventures And who says they don't do things kids would usually do? In Hey Arnold or Arnold or Doug they usually portray activities kids would normally do like baseball, hanging out with friends, buying comics and learning something new for example and even Ed Edd n Eddy have shown to be in relatable situations for kids

[@LoversComet]

OddBall64 I agree with your list. :)

[@BrandonDeriveAncestorEmpire]

6:45 Knuckles reckted the internet

[@ironkevman1513]

Brandon Derive ok I have to applaud the man for that. And so does mrenter given his reaction.

[@themilitantatheist9243]

He earned my respect. :) (The Egoraptor clip was a nice touch, too.)

[@marieclaire6193]

Knuckles is best.

[@thesupersonicstig]

Brandon Derive And the others just look at him like he's an idiot.

[@youtubeuser3343]

Knock knock it’s knuckles He don’t chuckle

[@BewareTheForce]

You do realize that Laika and Aardman are the only two companies that have managed to consistently make stop motion films, right? Laika made all the creepy stop motion you were talking about.

[@timothymclean]

As far as Hans goes...he's a mixed bag. On one hand, he's a brilliant way to convey the central theme of _Frozen_ (that love needs time to blossom); the guy she tried to marry the same day as their meet-cute turned out to be hiding something that wasn't initially obvious. On the other hand, the same qualities which make him another well-crafted thread in that thematic weave also make him kind of a mediocre villain. It doesn't help that the conflict he adds is secondary to the primary tension, but he's still treated as the Central Antagonist over Elsa's personal demons.

[@starforce9740]

I honestly think the true villain would be Elsa's dark side. Yes, she's considered a protagonist, but she arguably would also be the movie's villain. It's a subtle but interesting way to convey a villain.

[@timothymclean]

@@starforce9740 Eh...I see where you're coming from, but Elsa's "dark side" isn't really defined enough to work as a villain, even disregarding how Disney tends towards straightforward conflicts with a specific external threat. I wouldn't even describe Elsa as _having_ a dark side, just a deeply unhealthy headspace and basically no control over her apocalypse-inducing powers.

[@MiyaoMeow588]

I feel like the idea of a *twist* villain works better in a television series that will likely be many, many, many hours long, because you'll still have plenty of time to know that villain *as* a villain than just the lie they've presented this whole time. Unlike a 2 hour (at most) film where the twist happens 5 minutes before the credits roll. I also think there's certain factors that can make it work better. Like if the facade wasn't entirely a facade, or if the villain was already known as a villain from the beginning but just not *as* big of a villain as you might've thought, etc.

[@crashicbrosx]

syndrome for me was the best "twist villain" from disney or at least pixar"

[@SuperLlama42]

Or video games. Tales of Symphonia had like FOUR twist villains and only one of them only got like 5 minutes of development of their ACTUAL selves before dying, while the rest are some of the most well-developed characters in the game.

[@uanime1]

Or the twist occurs in the second act, not the third act.

[@kreepykhris4712]

I think you forgot the classic "winning the final battle with the power of LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP (or potatoes)" cliche

[@Reckno64]

*cough* Fairy Tail *cough*

[@1010ftw]

I wanna see a movie where they win with Potatoes lol

[@PunishedBlake]

That's used in so much shit though. Teardrops for instance are insanely potent elixirs as it turns out. Plus. I guess he didn't add it because it's just such a general thing in animation because the villains never team up so the heroes win because they have friends. For fucks sake, even live/action stuff does that/ Harry Potter survived his encounter with Voldemort through the most ancient magic of all, love form his parents.

[@crono3015]

He's not talking about Weeaboo Cartoons.

[@38procentkrytyk]

Harry Potters begins getting good when it drops cliches like dead parents and deals with more down to Earth stuff.

[@DoofusInc]

Thank you Castlevania. It's adult animation that ACTUALLY has passion for animation. And bear in mind that the budget was a fraction of the big animated shows have, therefore, yes the animation can be stilted at times. It tried (and IMO succeeded since it got greenlit for a second full season the very next day of the release) to make adult animation a medium; it had action, horro, comedy and drama. Hell, it had bigg-ish names as voice actors (notably Thorin from The Hobbit) that I'd imagine would be a significant budget drain for salaries and STILL put effort and money into the actual animation. God, the new season can't come soon enough.

[@STARPHASE]

But it's also netflix and an anime. Many anime shows have great animation quality. Even the older ones. They put effort into the character designs, backgrounds, and the animation its self. Not all anime shows are good, just like anything else, there are A LOT of bad ones out there. But generally speaking, the animation is great, and many of them are adult shows. Castlevania is a beautifully animated show, and even outdoes a lot of other anime shows. But, he didn't include anime for reasons he explained in part 1, which is totally fair. But, if you like Castlevania, check out shows like Fate/Zero, Fate/Apocrypha(Most the Fate/ series, really), Psycho-pass, Blood Blockade Battlefront, Steins;gate(slow at first but picks up in the most AMAZING way), even Attack On Titan, which gets mixed reviews, has great animation and has improved with each season, K project, and Gangsta.(which unfortunately won't be getting a second season) which has pretty good animation through most of the season, and the plot is great and it has a lot of adult themes that are interesting, and the most unforced, diverse cast I've seen in a while. Hell, even Voltron on Netflix has pretty great animation, and the story isn't too bad for what it is.

[@cartoonygothica]

The idiot parents trope is something I'd be happy to see go away. I know not all parents are good parents, but it can't hurt to show good parents in animation! I have mixed feelings about how characters don't age in most cartoons. On one hand, I like seeing consistent designs for characters, but at the same time, it doesn't feel believable to not have them age. One of the things I like about Wreck-it Ralph is that I see a good reason why the (video game) characters don't physically age.

[@Lauren_210]

I'm glad Bob and Helen Parr from the Incredibles films break this cliche since they are competent parents

[@jbcatz5]

While some idiot parents can be overprotective, not all overprotective parents are idiot parents. The non-idiot ones just tend to be bad at communication, or are dealing with children who are impulsive and/or teenagers. Marlin in Finding Nemo has a rough relationship with Nemo because he’s worried about Nemo’s weak fin, and Nemo is annoyed more than he is appreciative. It’s only once he realises what his father will go through for him, and for Marlin to recognise that Nemo doesn’t need constant worry that things get better between them. Triton in Little Mermaid tells Ariel that the human world is forbidden, but this makes the human world like forbidden fruit to her because Triton is not able to adequately explain why the humans are bad. He doesn’t like having to punish Ariel for her interest in human objects, and even signs Ursula’s contract to protect Ariel.

[@cartoonygothica]

That is true. Good points you brought up, there.

[@nobody2996]

I wouldn't count Wreck It Ralph as having a twist villain, from what I remember the character was always made out to be a villain, just not the big, big, villain.

[@PunishedBlake]

Yeah, but it was foreshadowed well enough. They introduce Turbo and the whole notion of a game character "going Turbo". It sets a consequence for Wralph's actions and also lets the audience feel like the sudden reveal makes sense. I mean, it was a twist, but it wasn't a sudden shift in the character of Turbo or that Candy King asshole since they're both made out to be selfish pricks.

[@jamainegardner4193]

emoji movie too.

[@kyuven]

King Candy being the villain wasn't really a twist. King Candy being Turbo was the real twist. Which was part of the genius, since it suddenly made his motivations a lot more clear without him having to monologue about them.

[@JCBro-yg8vd]

Kanassa It's more a twist in his actual identity and motives. King Candy is still the villain even before he becomes Turbo.

[@benjaminwambeke9458]

Kanassa If it counts as a twist at all, it’s certainly the best twist villain in a Disney movie, having the twist already being set up in part of the lore.

[@josiahtheawkward6008]

6:39 That Knuckles rant was amazing

[@whenthemusicsover6028]

+Vicky Barkley Season 2 Ep. 38 "Eggman's Anti-Gravity Ray"

[@benjivenator]

My main problem with Disney Twist Villians is that it means that we can't have any more Disney Villian Songs. Also, Bob-omb Battlefield. Nice.

[@PhoenixRising87]

Honestly, I'll take more compelling characters/stories over more villain songs any day.

[@Raptor_Ren]

But they aren't more compelling, like was said in the video. Seeing 3 minutes of their actual character is a lot more boring then watching them over the course of a movie or series. Look at ATLA (Which I'm admittedly biased towards, as you can tell by my avatar) Look at Zuko, Azula, And the Firelord, while they each had varying screen time (and one turned good), we got to know each for who they were, and remember their characters, motivations, and overall had fun watching them lose or win. Now imagine if, in the last few episodes, Iroh freaking burst in because it was all an elaborate plot to become the Firelord himself. It destroys the character as they had been established and leaves a sour taste in viewers mouths. I feel the same way about Hans and belweather, since we left the movies knowing less about them than if they were just positive, helpful side-characters.

[@IceLena]

Basically a Villian song was suppose to be a quick supporting point on why they are evil or the villian, (Frolo is the best example of this) it went into their over all character story. However over time it became a quick way to show oh this character is evil and not have to do the work of fleshing them out. The Twist evil nowadays has the opposite problem because it's become a lazy way to have a villian without flesh out their motivations properly in the cause of Hans and Bellweather throught the work.

[@wolf1066]

My youngest daughter revealed her jaded attitude to "Disney Death" at age 9 when we were watching a movie - it wasn't even a Disney movie or an animation - and they went for the emotionally manipulative death fakeout. My daughter piped up "don't worry, someone will give him a magic Disney kiss and he'll be all right" - she sounded _bored_ Trying to manipulate the emotions of the audience with a fake death is just disrespectful and overdoing it in the way they have robs death of its impact and completely nullifies any of the stakes throughout the movie. Bad enough that we already know that the hero's not going to be killed off midway through the movie (likewise the villain) regardless of the danger without throwing in a fake death scene as well. My children are already well acquainted with the permanency of death, having lost beloved people early in their lives, so the Disney Death/Fakeout/miraculous resurrection crap doesn't give them the wrong idea of death (it occurs to me that this might be _why_ my kids are so cynical of the trope) but I can appreciate that it could very well give kids a skewed outlook on death and dying.

[@Mickspad]

My biggest problem with the whole "male vs female" stereotype bit is the fact that if people want to have good female characters that show they're strong, they throw out show, don't tell, that's one of the many reasons I actually love the show RWBY, because they just have good female characters without saying "Hey look! We have strong female characters!"

[@lukebytes5366]

this trope is sorta hypocritical in a sence. what this is really saying is that: "if you have a strong female, say it out loud! prove to the public that is can be done! even though it's 2017 and equal rights were here long before this time! GO FEMALES!" hell, media in general even put men down. (not including people of course. fuck you anita sarkesian.) my point is, i don't understand why this trope existed. yeah, there still is some sexism and racism around every corner no matter how much you hate it, but the sexist/racist attack won't happen for a long time. if ever. and if their ever will be, it will most likley be against white men at this point. i hate feminism so much sometimes.

[@Mickspad]

Luke Hqyes which is why Knuckles explaining feminism is fucking genius

[@YamatoFukkatsu]

Luke Hqyes I really despise the whole social justice bullshit myself (and I've been a very huge advocate of GamerGate as a result). I mean, there's just so much hypocrisy and irony in these people's logic. The idea that we should fight hatred and bigotry towards minorities by being hateful and bigoted towards majorities who did absolutely nothing wrong except being born with the wrong skin color and gender. The idea that representation matters so much that they need to shoehorn in a token character that's itself a one-dimensional stereotype (and if said tokenism isn't there, the media in question should be burned to the ground for being Nazi propaganda). The idea that radicalized practitioners of a certain religion being called out for acting highly intolerant (to the point of murdering whoever doesn't fall in line with their beliefs) is highly intolerant. The fact that they're infantilizing the very people they claim to be fighting for by acting as if they're too weak and stupid to have any authority of their own, and if those "oppressed" people dare speak up against this, they're a traitor or they're too indoctrinated with internalized misogyny/racism. I just constantly find myself astounded at how hard it is for them to see that they are in fact the very bigots they claim to be against.

[@Mickspad]

Luna, or T Challa Loud/Mama yeah and it's free online, but warning: the first season SUCKS (oh and the trailers for the show are technically episode 0) they're in the middle of season 5 now

[@Mickspad]

Luna, or T Challa Loud/Mama kzbin.info/www/bejne/poq6Y3qjfadortU First of 4 trailers

[@the13throse]

Yeah, the fake-out death is just annoying at this point. Either kill off a character for good, or don't kill them off at all. Hell, a lot of movies that use this trope didn't actually NEED a character to die in them! Characters should only be killed if it helps the plot or furthers character development, or to show the severity of a situation previously thought to be inconsequential. Not to fill some nonexistant standard or make kids kind of sad for a few seconds, and DEFINITELY not just for shock value.

[@porkyminch1640]

MOTHER 3 does fake deaths right they kill of only 2 characters and bring them back but they are not the same whatsoever, in fact, they are vastly different from what they once were its like they are a whole new person and it doesn't happen in the span of 2 minutes

[@CrasherX2000]

Porky Minch Mega Man X2 did it right because a central focus of the game was collecting three parts of Zero through the combined efforts of X and Dr Cain Which makes Zero’s sudden reappearance in X6 that much more jarring, ESPECIALLY when that reason for coming back is so BAD considering the shape he was in at the end of X5

[@adampkalb]

@@porkyminch1640 MegaMind also did it right because the fake-out death was the point of the plot. April 6, 2020, 6:28pm Metro Man's death fake-out lasted for a majority of the story, and he intentionally faked Megamind out so he could retire from being a superhero, so I have no idea what Enter will make of that.

[@adampkalb]

Would you believe me if I told you that Bojack Horseman had an entire episode dedicated to a fake-out death for Bojack and you did not see that episode? It is called The View From Halfway Down. April 6, 2020, 6:31pm

[@adampkalb]

I always viewed Wonder Park (2019) as a gray area when it comes to fake-out deaths. The premise of the movie is that June's dark feelings nearly consume her and she has to face those feelings to save her Wonder Land when she has to deal with the possibility of losing her mom to cancer. June Bailey faces her dark feelings and keeps that light inside her shining the whole time her mother was away. At the end I was happy when June's mom came back home and survived her cancer. You could argue that this story could play out the same way if June's mom really died before June went to Awe Sum Camp and set the main plot in motion, but maybe Wonder Park's writers saw this Animated Atrocities video from 2017 during production, and figured out how to create good parents in animation who are open-minded to their kids' desires, and how to spare children's fear of death without lying to them or giving them a false hope. We don't need to know what was going on with June's mother, and as long as we don't see what she was going through, we do not have to worry about any death fake-out because Josh Applebaum and Andre Nemec cut out the middle man. We were never led to believe that June's sick mother was truly dead, because we know just as little about it as June. The point of ambiguous situations like this is, we should hope for the best, but also prepare for and assume the worst in case our mother doesn't beat her cancer. April 6, 2020, 6:55pm

[@matti.8465]

I also despice the "conflict based on a misunderstanding for hearing/seeing something out of context at the wrong moment" and i absolutely loved when Phineas and Ferb made fun of it

[@papershadow]

Honestly, that trope is one reason I really appreciate Wreck-It Ralph. Ralph and Vanellope falling out in Act 2 isn't from a miscommunication or hiding secrets, Ralph tells her everything about the situation as he knows it and they still don't agree on what he does, so there is legitimate conflict and wrongs to be forgiven and righted.

[@reasyrandom]

Ralph was manipulated by King Candy, so it's not a misunderstanding at all, it's just Ralph being determined to protect Vanellope.

[@Lauren_210]

The only time I've ever seen the misunderstanding cliche done right and never bothered me was in Brother Bear. Denahi was going after Kenai to stop him from getting revenge on the bear that killed Sitka and didn’t see Kenai turn into a bear. Thus, he thinks Kenai also got killed by the bear just like his brother and throughout the movie, goes after the bear to get revenge on it for killing Kenai, not knowing that he’s trying to kill Kenai. First time Denahi runs into Kenai, he tries to tell him that it’s him, but Denahi doesn’t hear him speak English and only hears animal sounds (which helps to establish the rules of that universe). We the audience follow both Kenai and Denahi’s journeys and we understand both of their sides. We can even feel sorry for Denahi because he’s by himself and is under the belief that he has lost two brothers despite the second brother not being dead at all. It would still be such a tragic thing to go through if you were in his position.

[@Arlesmon]

I don't know if the cliche of "conflict based on a misunderstanding for hearing/seeing something out of context at the wrong moment" is inherently bad. Sure, it's lazy and not a good way to start a genuine conflict that will give a good time, but i think it can be used creatively if done correctly.

[@ikebirchum6591]

@@Arlesmon any trope/cliche can be done well, the problem is that most people dont do it well

[@Clonehunter1]

Technically, both the parents in Treasure Planet are, as far as anyone in universe knows, still alive. Jim's dad simply left, but was never confirmed to have died afaik.

[@dadjokesdaily1529]

Austin Dahlke maybe that’s one of the “less than a dozen”.

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

To be fair, Dil was a very significant character in the movie since he was pretty much the cause of much of their trouble, to the point that even Tommy had had enough. And then we get to the point where he get some character development and legitimately becomes OK.

[@carlbloke8797]

MetroidJunkie yeah at least in the movie Dil actually was meaningful but unfortunately the show completely ruined everything and made Dil contribute nothing

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

Guess they just didn't know what to do with him after that.

[@hunterolaughlin]

@@VGamingJunkieVTConsidering the main gimmick of the show is how babies see and interpret things through their perspective differently from adults, it would’ve been an interesting angle to explore how a few month old baby views the world and considering how limited his vocabulary would be, they could give him an inner monologue-esque voice to convey more of Dil’s thoughts. I feel like I’m putting more effort into coming up with ideas for Dil’s character to do than the writers themselves.

[@TheWilderCat]

There is a reason that all parents die in animated movies. In order for your movie and/or tv show to be successful you must sacrifice at least one parent to the ghost of Walt Disney, if you don't you can also sacrifice a goat.

[@Darkko88]

That's why there weren't any goats in The Incredibles!

[@jaschabull2365]

So, would Hercules have done better if Phil got half-killed?

[@TheWilderCat]

@Jascha Bull I have no idea because I haven't watched Hercules and only know a bit about the original legend.

[@markcambrone8369]

The twist with Hans WAS last minute. Hans wasn't supposed to be the villain, Elsa was and she was meant to reform. In the original script, he wasn't evil, just an idiot. Admittedly I think making Prince Charming an idiot is worse than Prince Charming played straight, but thing is they could have still worked without making him a villain. Around Frozen Fever's release, Disney released a novel called "A Frozen Heart" that detailed his backstory. Long story short, Hans is basically Zuko. His father is a dictator and abusive parent who indoctrinates his sons into being his loyal enforcers. He treats Hans poorly for refusing to be evil and encouraged his other sons to mistreat him to "toughen him up". His mother loves him, but she's afraid of her husband to the point where all she does is smile at her son. Only one brother wasn't a dick and he suggested marrying the future queen of Arendelle as a means to get out of the Southern Isles. Hans wants to rule Arendelle to leave his home and prove himself to his dad. That's the basics of his backstory, but the book made him more interesting than the film did.

[@CoolG97]

Too bad that story isn't canon

[@markcambrone8369]

It kinda is...

[@CoolG97]

Mark Cambrone I sure hope so.

[@LaineMann]

Actually that backstory makes sense. And it brings me back to a plothole I realized like 10 minutes after watching Frozen: why didn't he try and force Elsa to marry him? Tell her that Anna is dead and that if she doesn't marry him he'll have her arrested for treason.

[@MrChaotic4]

They decided to have Hans as the twist villain along with all of the other cliches with the intention of mocking them. It's different when they're trying to make fun of the cliches.

[@liamdude5722]

In Zootopia, the parents became un-closed minded because of their daughter. In How to Train Your Dragon 2, Hiccup's father becomes a much better character. Also, if there was a pointless mother character in Aladdin, you'd complain that Jasmine's mother has nothing to do.

[@Numbuh8578]

True

[@47ratsinahoodie]

Well they either could have given the mother something to do like Moana's mom's (albeit small) role in helping Moana find Maui or they could have made Jasmine's lack of a mom mean something to her.

[@tyrantking9000]

Did we even _see_ Jasmine's mother? It's been forever since I saw Aladdin, but I don't recall Jasmine's mother even being _present_ in the movie at all.

[@nadroji6549]

@ liamdude5 While, yes, at the end the parents become un-closed minded, but for the vast majority of the movie & where they impacted the story & character(s) the most, they were too closed minded to accept their children's lifestyle/choices & that's their character for 90%/95% of the film, that's one of or the main conflict of the film. Also, you're assuming that if Jasmine's mother was added to the film she would be pointless, how exactly? Would she not have impacted on the charcters/Jasmine? Would she just seems like a background character? While it's possible, Jasmine's mother could have also been a well written character & if she was pointless, then having her alive & having her dead would change nothing, you either have an overdone cliche or another useless charter that would be better of not existing in the first place, which would be a legitimate criticism.

[@whitethunder9064]

@@tyrantking9000 No, because she's dead.

[@gin5138]

"Not aging up your characters" **shows Ash from the Pokémon anime** _fuckin' genius_

[@LoversComet]

Cat Scratch Studios XD. My thoughts exactly.

[@barrytone2400]

Cat Scratch Studios wait, is that sarcasm?

[@gin5138]

Barry Tone Nah, I said it was genius because Ash from Pokémon is infamous for never aging.

[@farrelsamuel1164]

Pietro Lucchese and his friends also can't age

[@Raptor_Ren]

It would have been more powerful to see him grow and become the greatest pokemon trainer. It could have ended Ash's journey after a few regions with him finally winning a league, beating the elite 4, etc., and a new character being introduced that is inspired by Ash to try and do the same.

[@EYTPS]

Sally Acorn and Mrs. Brisby is the perfect way to do that female-stereotype-breaking shit properly.... Eh, not so much, Brisby, but that's more than just because she walks around and has information given to her by others until that magical necklace turns on out of never and helps her save her kids.

[@imthescatman3505]

Yes

[@carlbloke8797]

And Sandy Cheeks

[@UbinTimor]

I'm surprised there's no mention of the trope in mostly TV shows where a character in the show get's their house destroyed or something happens to it which causes them to be thrown out onto the street and then the main character offers to have them sleep over at their house until repairs are done or they can move back into their own place. after the character moves into the main character's house they make themselves too much at home (either because the main character babies them or it's just their personality not to give a shit about another person's home) and they start wrecking the place but the main character dosen't kick them out or confront them because they're too "nice" or whenever they try to confront them the character staying at their house pulls some guilt-tripping line of: "I'm so glad I have friends/someone like you to rely one because I don't have friends yadda..yadda.." Despite all their friends or their room mate constantly telling the main character that the person they invited to stay at their place needs to go the main character keeps making up excuses to puss out until finally they snap after it's been week or months and go off on the character who's crashing at their place basically telling them to get the fuck out. and after the main character tells them off the character bumming at the main character's place gets all pissy at them and is like: "Why didn't you tell me to do chores/clean after myself/act like any grateful person should when staying at someone's house/ect ect? my house was fixed weeks ago I only stayed here because it didn't seem like you wanted me to leave." or something like that basically turning the situation around and making the main character the asshole for being mad that their house is being trashed by someone who's overstayed their welcome.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

I forgot the name of the trope, I think it was Hotel Protagonist or something

[@StephonZeno]

I really wish we could have more main characters who are lovable assholes.

[@jbcatz5]

Stoik from How to Train Your Dragon is a bit more nuanced. He’s chief of the people of Berk, and also worries for Hiccup and his future. When he finds out Hiccup has a way with dragons he’s genuinely proud. When Stoik finds out why Berk is being menaced by dragons and the Red Death dragon is defeated, he’s just glad to have Hiccup alive and becomes open to Berk becoming a human and dragon tribe.

[@dr.altoclef9255]

It also helps that there's a completely logical reason for why he feels the way he feels. Multiple, actually... I mean the idea that dragons are always hostile was clearly something that had existed for a long time. And as far as Stoick knew, he lost his wife to a dragon attack...as far as he knew, she was carried off and killed trying to protect their son. The fact that she was alive was a shock to literally everyone. So in his mind, he's restrictive of Hiccup because he's trying to keep his son from being hurt until he's ready...and he's proud when he learns his son can 'beat' dragons because that means he's *safe*...

[@taiasoncole8148]

What I think is the most interesting thing about quite a few of these cliches is how a lot of the ones you listed, were actually made to subvert tropes before them. The dumbass dad was meant to subvert the standard 50's father The tomboy "not like the other girls" girl was meant to subvert the girly girl token (like Smurfette) The twist villain was meant to subvert the evil just to be evil villains It really shows how subverting a trope can end up making more tropes.

[@ItsOver9000000]

Hans being the villain came right the fuck out of nowhere because I guess Disney decided that they had enough evil queens and didn't want to make Elsa the villain so they were like "Let's make the pretty boy evil instead!"

[@jaschabull2365]

Yeah, 'cause that's completely new. *looks sharply at Gaston*

[@PhoenixRising87]

Elsa being the villain would've made the movie so much better (Idina Menzel has the PERFECT voice for a sassy anti-villain character).

[@gregorymelissinos6109]

darth vader, megatron, skeletor, cobra commander, the xenomorphs, freddy krueger and all the marvel villains would beg to differ

[@noahalcantar2431]

Wow that's sexist towards male characters

[@wilsonkierankitsune]

I don't think Judy's parents are bad, they're just worried about her safety and their advice is actually sound "it's alright to have dreams as long as you don't believe in them too much" it sounds harsh but they know her path will be hard and they want her to at least be more realistic

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Wilson Bennett And Judy's dream of becoming a cop could get her killed. They're not bad people, just overprotective.

[@GanzoHasashi1911]

I was hoping I would find this comment

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Exactly, MrEnter likes to harp on Judy's parents being close-minded and terrible, but their fears are well founded, bunnies aren't physically cut out for the more challenging parts of being a cop in Zootopia, and even with extensive training Judy struggles with alot of things in her job, the ZPD was not designed with bunnies in mind. And of course it would be hard for a bunny cop to apprehend a large criminal, and Judy very nearly gets stepped on by an elephant. The fact she graduated is extraordinary but realistically she should have failed based on her physical limitations. Same way Greg Universe is overprotective of his son Steven, like Judy's parents they just don't want their child to get killed.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Yeah, sometimes I think MrEnter either doesn't do his research, or ignores evidence to the contrary of his points, or at least he accentuates the negatives in the media he reviews. Some stuff deserves the hate and to be called Animated Atrocities, stuff like Post-cancellation Family Guy making fun of abuse victims, rape, sociopathic behaviour, etc, or Modern Spongebob episodes like One Coarse Meal, mind fucks like Tentacolino, trite like Puppy in my Pocket, etc, there's not really anything in Zootopia that deserves to be placed in the same category. Just because is uses cliches he personally dislikes, even when it uses them well, he paints them like they're horrible.

[@carlbloke8797]

Greatsaiyakirby I don't agree with some of his points either like you said here but no need to be harsh on the guy. Plus not sure if you know this but Spongebob has actually improved

[@MissFlow]

JOHN silver from treasure planet is more a redeemed villain than a twist villain, really. Or a fusion of that, dunno, he's kinda hard to categorize.

[@Xream223]

Bens grandfather from ben10 (the original) is the only animated parental figure that cares about his grandson and daughter's well-being

[@foxymetroid]

It could be argued that pre-Flanderiation Homer Simpson cared about his family. He was an idiot and had has flaws, but he usually at least tried to do what he thought was best for them. There was also the grandparents from Hey Arnold. They were kinda crazy (especially the grandmother), but they were always happy to help out, maybe give some advice while they were at it.

[@crono3015]

Never seen Wolf Children, huh?

[@TheSpawnfan]

deskman10 if we're counting parental figures, John Silver from Treasure Planet should count, even for a short time, Silver was as a father should be to Jim, Helen Parr also counts i think, as a parental figure.

[@Xream223]

Crono you know that does not count

[@jaredhamon3411]

Both of May's parent's were present, competent and loving in the Pokemon anime.

[@oreyedarez7267]

I agree with everything you said, but I especially agree with the 'Gender Stereotypes' cliche. Like, I never understood why gender has to matter so much. Why is not having a female main character considered 'sexist', but a lack of a male main character is 'perfectly fine'? What? I'm also tired of the fact that animation likes to make the females all 'powerful' and 'just as strong as men'. Like, if you REALLY DO believe that females are just as good as males, then WHY NOT JUST WRITE THE FEMALES THE EXACT SAME WAY YOU WRITE THE MALES? HUH? This isn't gender equality, this is just female dominance/male discrimination! And heck, I'm a female myself!

[@Vitorruy1]

Four Eyed Fairiez it's even worst when they just happen to be single and then fall in love with the protagonist.

[@100lovenana]

It comes down to Knuckles' quote in the video and the phrase "show, don't tell". In animation when a female character is strong, every character (sometimes even herself) makes that a big deal about it because "it's so rare" and "she's not like any other girl". And there's the mistake, it makes strong girls and women look like something unusual when in real life that's not true. One way to make this cliche disappear is to have your female characters be strong without anyone in the movie making a big deal out of it (not even herself), so it comes out as natural and not forced. This also happens with male characters when they don't follow the "manly" formula, one example is Spike in this video as well: by "not being like the other dragons (boys)" it makes it look like a soft and nice man is very rare and the majority are supposed to be strong and rude, that's not true either. There are many men in real life who are kind and friendly, but the trope says that all men should be tough and mean by nature. This cliche also happens in "Dipper vs Manliness" in Gravity Falls, the title says it all, and that's why it's one of my least favorite episodes.

[@pleasedislikemyvideo2101]

I mean you can't write them EXACTLY the same because even if they're just as capable of being a strong character, there are still differences in how the two genders act.

[@Vitorruy1]

PLEASE DISLIKE MY VIDEO Meh

[@GeteMachine]

Thats the problem when characters are only determined on how representitive they are, because then their existence and attributes for why they should exist override them actually being written equally to the other characters. I don't agree that its male discrimination. Its just raising one side of a social stereotype over the lack of stereotypes on the male character in parallel without the exceptional emphasis, hence what Knuckle said.

[@nowyuosee109]

My favourite twist villain has got to be King Candy from Wreck it Ralph. The thing was, you kinda knew he was a villain, so you knew it was coming. Also I just love Wreck to Ralph.

[@reasyrandom]

I agree, he is by far the most entertaining villain from the 2010-era. Proof that you don't need a good excuse to be a good villain (Coco ended up doing the same).

[@meatmeatmeatmeatmeatmeatmeatme]

When I watched it in my 10 I quickly guessed that King Candy was the villain. But it was a REALLY big shock for me that he turned out to be Turbo xd

[@blahble162]

The best part about King Candy as a twist villain, isn't the fact that he's a villain at all, it's WHAT villain he is. You see him early on and you think yeah this guys a douche, but then so is the rest of Sugar Rush INCLUDING Vanellope, , it's a competitive world and you pick him out as the villain because he's king even though he's just kind of a jerk like the rest of the characters in his game. The twist that he was another character mentioned wayyyy earlier and had much grander schemes than we realised was just awesome, it adds this whole other level of danger and threat to him.

[@NicoUnken]

There's a reason why Mr. Enter repeatedly credited him as being the origin of this trope.

[@thanos4314]

Syndrome is slightly better, but yeah

[@eb2k445]

18:30 Oh and don't forget what made King Candy a good twist villian was that his twist wasn't simply him being a villain.

[@TheHero136]

This really makes me appreciate the Incredibles. Great Dad character, amazing villain, female characters who are actually interesting, no comic relief except maybe Jack Jack and if so he easily wins against the others, real tension, and its just otherwise an amazing movie.

[@MysteriousTomJenkins]

I'd say what makes Jack Jack a good comic relief is that he's a baby with no control over his powers so the comedic things aren't due to maliciousness or extreme stupidity, just a normal baby doing normal baby things while transforming into different forms. It's different from the minions doing random shit because they have no brain cells between them or Patrick literally admitting he does stupid stuff on purpose, Jack Jack is a baby, everything he does is merely an accident and the worst that happens is it freaks people out, not holding off the plot to getting characters hurt. As for the female characters, neither Violet, Helen or Edna were 'I'm better than males', Violet was shy and trying to control her powers, Helen was trying to keep her family together and Edna was simply an eccentric genius, even if there were no male characters they'd still be the same where as girl power characters thrive in being better at men and they thus need a man ironically.

[@jaschabull2365]

Amen to that. I'm honestly pretty scared about the sequel, the Monsters Inc. prequel kind of made me nervous about what Pixar could do to their old stories. And what Tom said is part of the reason I prefer Violet to Merida. That and I find her more relatable, being relatively introverted and not all that ambitious.

[@jaschabull2365]

+John Ploopy Even then, that was mainly a "enough moaning and moping around, you're a superhero, act like one" moment.

[@42Fossy]

John Ploopy It wasn't really a "girl power" moment - she didn't say "go and do that because you're a strong woman that don't need no man!", she was saying "you're a superhero, pull yourself together and act like one!" It wasn't gender-specific in any way.

[@jaschabull2365]

The only real "girl power" moment I remember in The Incredibles was actually at the very beginning where Helen was telling her interviewer she didn't want to "leaving the saving the world to the men". Ironically, the rest of the movie made her look like the wiser one by being more able to adjust to domestic life than Bob, whose itch for action was played as a bit of a weakness.

[@reddragon8167]

You know what I wish? I wish the gargoyles from Hunchback were mellow, like soft-spoken grandparents, and at times a little patronizing, and a bit of a downer, and their song was bittersweet, and slow. And they didn't fight back in the climax, save perhaps for some emotional support, or perhaps one says goodbye before falling on a dude's head like a rock and shattering, which would help preserve the idea that they were all in Quasimodo's head. You know, something deep and thought-provoking.

[@markcobuzzi826]

I think it would have been perfect if they simply: A.) Removed that confusing moment where Djali apparently reacts to Hugo making a kissy face. B.) Substituted the anachronisms and modern talk in "A Guy Like You." C.) Had the last time we see the gargoyles be after Quasimodo sees Esmeralda unconscious and fears for her life. That would represent the point where Quasimodo knows what it is like to have a true friend, allowing the gargoyles to peacefully leave through the doorway and never return. Then, once Quasimodo has the acceptance of the people, the gargoyles do not even appear during "The Bells of Notre Dame" reprise, symbolizing how Quasimodo is so amazed by the real people that his imaginary friends did not even come to mind. I am one of the few people that actually liked the Gargoyles for the most part (especially after reading the original book and finding out Quasi DID talk to them in Victor Hugo's story), but I agree that it would have been better if Disney fully committed to the idea of them being imaginary, as oppose to going half-and-half, unnecessarily leaving it ambiguous when a definitive answer that they are not real would have been better. I also did not actually mind them participating in the battle that much, since Quasimodo could have imagined the Gargoyles helping him out against the random unnamed soldiers (and the Gargoyles were still powerless to do anything when Frollo, a main character, came up to kill Quasi and Esmeralda), and I actually liked some of their jokes (like the catapult-mousetrap bit and the Wizard of Oz/Alfred Hitchcock homage).

[@jaschabull2365]

So, basically a bit more like Grandmother Willow?

[@reddragon8167]

I agree completely! In fact, being all in Quasimodo's head would have nearly saved their characters from the Scrappy heap in the eyes of the Nostalgia Critic. I also would like it if they only moved from place to place when holding Quasimodo's hand, or when the ground they are on was falling away. Just some small stuff you don't have to call attention to that both emphasizes their age and supports the interpretation of being Quasimodo's imaginary friends.

[@alecfoisy58]

Even though I didn't mind the gargoyles that much, I agree it would've been a lot more interesting if they were in Quasi's head. It would've been a really dark way to create comic relief.

[@reddragon8167]

Yeah, that alone would have likely helped rectify a lot of the dislike people have regarding them by itself. The story really didn't need magical sidekicks.

[@SpunkyDunk]

I totally agree with #1. The first time I saw Toy Story 3, I was already sick of that animation cliche and expected it to happen one way or another. However, during the incinerator scene I thought to myself, "wait...no...they're not gonna actually do it, are they? Pixar wouldn't just kill off all their main characters and let the bad guy get away...that would be actually good and unexpected...OH GOD THEY'RE ALL HOLDING HANDS, THE MUSIC IS REALLY DARK AND INTENSE, THIS COULD REALLY BE IT FOR THEM...PIXAR, YOU BRILLIANT BAS---aaaaaaand they're saved, pffft...."

[@TheGoldenDunsparce]

When I heard that the ending of Toy Story 3 made everyone cry, I legit thought they'd be incinerated, and their melted remains would end up being made into new toys or something. Picture them being incinerated and the remains being poured into molds for new plastic figures. The viewer would watch as these figures are made, painted, are boxed, shipped, and finally displayed in a store window. Andy is walking by and suddenly stops to look at the figures. Something caught his eye. He hesitates for a moment, then decides to go in and buy it. He got to bring all his toys to college after all.

[@kokorolinkrun2943]

That's kinda depressing, actually

[@djshy3]

TheGoldenDunsparce First of all, HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME FEEL WORSE! Second, that was beautiful and poetic and I love it.

[@LovinaVargas1076]

I have a friend who actually was legitimately angry at the possibility of them permanently killing them off. This wasn't even a "it looked like they were dead" thing or "they were revived" thing, they were rescued at the last minute. I know people don't like last-minute rescues, but it's probably better than "magical revival" (which fairy tales have done for centuries, which is why it's in Disney's Snow White, because that's what happened in the original story, I'm not sure why he thinks it's automatically a pandering cop-out by default)

[@LovinaVargas1076]

@@unicornbunny5439 A cop-out is when you take a lazy solution instead of doing something properly. It's from the Monty Python skits where sometimes the skit would end by the cops coming and arresting everybody. They literally "copped out" of finishing the sketch and completing the joke properly.

[@MikhailKutzow]

I think the worst part of the "fake death" cliche, from an artistic point of view, anyway, is that it's become so absurdly common that I tend to expect a character that dies in most media to actually be just fine. Having a character actually stay dead is now the twist, rather than them coming back to life. And by the point you realize they're not coming back, the moment's usually past to feel much over it. It's a cliche so bad and so overused that it negatively impacts the experience of stories that don't even use it. So I would say that it definitely deserves to be number one on this list.

[@fortynights1513]

I wouldn’t call it number one personally, but I don’t mind it being on here.

[@Arxeu]

There's one cliche in animated movies I hate the most, which you didn't mention here. It's the mandatory sad moment in 3/4th part of the movie. Even if the movie is entirely comedy, there's at least one scene where the main character lied to others/acted like asshole ect. and for the next few minutes we see him being sad while the sad music is playing.

[@Arxeu]

Yes, that's the thing, more or less.

[@taiasoncole8148]

It stuck out like a sore thumb in Moana when Maui got upset at Moana for honestly no reason and left just so there could be a "sad moment"

[@MrTetrisz]

Touko White well he tied his identity to his hook and when it got damaged,he took it as an attack on himself and to lose the hook is to lose himself is my explanation.But I felt that moment felt forced since I saw the " you are the person that defines yourself" lesson the moment he got mad

[@taiasoncole8148]

MrTetrisz I get that... But I don't know why he got mad at Moana

[@JeffreyThrash]

I remember that cliche sticking out in The Secret Life of Pets. A particularly heinous example in live action movies is the incredibly forced fight scene in Adam Sandler's Grown Ups...or Blended...or any of Adam Sandler's recent output...

[@Twentydragon]

I liked Bellweather as a twist villain because her story worked and fell into place as soon as it was revealed. That is an essential part of making something like that work. Hans... didn't. He just popped up out of nowhere, and even his Aside Glances were basically retconned to force him into the role. _Frozen_ would have been a much stronger movie without a villain at all. Aside Glance: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsideGlance

[@MHS-us1qv]

One of the few forgotten animated Disney movie that actually gets the Death fakeout trope correctly is probably Ray from Princess and the Frog. They showed his funeral.

[@reasyrandom]

They didn't show him come back to life, they only showed him becoming a star (if he actually did become a star or not is up to interpretation).

[@MrKlausbaudelaire]

thats not a death fakeout, it's an actual death. A fakeout explicity have the character coming back intact or at least in condition to keep living for a long time. The cliché gets worse the shorter is the time for the character to come back. A character dying and appearing as a ghost, or a subtle implication of reincarnation doesn't count as fakeout.

[@CalebCraft10]

MHS0501 Not related, but I wish something used the character-comes-back-to-life trope in a unique way. Like, have the character remember the pain and fear of death, having them remember it as a traumatic incident forever. Rick and Morty kiiinda did it in Rick Potion 9, but not really.

[@dustinfreeman1451]

That part from that movie was part of a Disney theory that led up to the star in "Peter Pan".

[@ZorotheGallade]

At least Lotso was a consistent character. You start having legitimate suspicion on him when the toys start getting mistreated by the toddlers after he pitched the daycare as a perfect place for them, and by they time he's confronted and revealed as a villain he already knows his cover is blown but by then he has already succeeded in trapping everyone. It's not a "ooh surprise, he's evil now" moment made to clumsily attempt to pull the rug from under you.

[@maxleon61702]

Facts.

[@Ackbar96]

Tom and Sabine Dupain-Cheng in Miraculous Ladybug are some of the best parents I've seen in western animation. They care about their daughter and want her to stay safe, even if they are completely unaware of her superhero life. On the other hand, there's Gabriel Agreste in the same show, who is neglectful and emotionally abusive to his son, not to mention being a literal supervillain.

[@ashbasher22nerd93]

Judy's parents were more concerned for her safety because she was a smaller animal than the rest of the ZPD and other criminals. They tried to warn her about how she will be taken advantage of. They were right. She gets manipulated by Nick Wilde for the Jumbo Pop scam. Eventually they did open their eyes and are now working with Gideon Grey. They are great characters like the rest.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Ashley Grant Exactly and thanks for pointing it out. Mr. Enter mentioning none of that bugged me immensely.

[@willeeuhm]

Would you consider Syndrome from The Incredibles a twist villain? If so, I'd consider that the best usage of the trope, but even then it's not like we see him interacting with the main characters very much before the reveal. The only twist is that he looked up to Mr. Incredible when he was a kid, and then he's shown to be the one plotting against the family later on.

[@papershadow]

To repeat a comment I made on another thread, I don't think Syndrome counts as a twist villain along these lines because the movie never makes a concentrated effort to play him as a good guy and then reverse it. Even when he's not strictly evil, he's still treated as a nuisance and a problem, and he's sinister even prior to his proper reveal. It's more payoff to foreshadowing and a downfall for a once morally upright character.

[@crinsombone5380]

@@papershadow They don't treat him like a villain either. I thought he was more of a joke in the movie when I first saw it

[@ffjreviews9029]

I don’t think so because #1 he was revealed halfway through the movie similar to Lotso and #2 the twist was more of the fact that he was a Fanboy that Mr Incredible didn’t give a crap about, unlike someone like Hans which was cared about by Anna just coming out of nowhere. in conclusion: no, Syndrome isn’t a twist villain, but if he is, then he along with Lotso are the best examples of twist villains

[@somedumbass4197]

I've never really seen the "every stop motion movie must be creepy" trope actually be a big problem, as there are plenty of stop motion films that are not creepy. Some good non-creepy stop motion films are Kubo and the Two Strings, The Boxtrolls, and Ma vie de Courgette/My Life as a Zucchini (don't know if this would cont since it's technically a Swiss-French production). Also, Laika's current production that is scheduled to be in theaters in the spring of 2019, Missing Link, looks to be another non-creepy non-horror stop motion film.

[@kieranstark7213]

Finally, someone said it! Out of all the cliches mentioned on this list, this is farthest from the worst example (everything else on this list is agreed with) because of how underrated stop-motion is that I don’t see anyone, at least not in this comment section, stick up for it, and I thought Mr. Enter would be the type of guy to admit that he loved (a lot of) the examples of the very art of stop-motion. In fact, criticism where criticism is due for this video, there are worse examples of animated cliches Mr. Enter forgot to mention. Popular mean girl/femme fatale (re: Lola in Shark Tale) The best friend that is a girl and also a love interest The characters who are mean/beats up/abuses the main character but she’s also his love interest (Ronnie Anne Santiago from The Horribly Loud House) The Bart/Lisa siblings relationship Something that has Z at the end to look cool “The Prince and the Pauper” story The third-act breakup (like, take for instance, in The Boss Baby) “They ain’t coming back.” (just as long as it were well-handled, it would be like the polar opposite of “the death fakeout”) Babbling because you’re in love (again, Shark Tale, but Oscar was doing it with his ex-girlfriend Lola)