Knowing Your Legion - Getting Started In Horus Heresy

[@LordoftheSwarm]

The Thousand Sons were actually so powerful that the Emperor had to FAQ them at the Council of Nikea to rebalance the game.

[@okonkwojones]

“WHAT!?! I spec’d all my points into psykers and they were hardly viable then, and now you’re just gonna flat ban them? Screw you GW-I mean Dad!”

[@LordoftheSwarm]

@@okonkwojones push and I'll red card you! Haha

[@coot33]

The Council of Nikea makes little sense. Emperor being a psyker.

[@stuartknox9266]

Word Bearers be like - "but you can play whatever edition you want!"

[@TheArchermonkey]

@@coot33 The Emperor is a psyker, sure. But the most powerful mental ability he has is hypocrisy.

[@Grubnar]

"... like Iron Warriors [...] Death Guard, are Legions that are ... and Space Wolves, Legions that have a very low skill cap." Me, who collects Iron Warriors, Death Guard and Space Wolves: "I feel personally attacked!" 😄

[@mrns738]

One of the coolest scenes from the HH. WE vs UM shield wall and Kharn yells "OUR TURN!"

[@tomdamoose2461]

"Get up" "I reject you now and always!" Or Zephon threatening Arkan Land.

[@ravenRedwake]

25:46 “it’s not enough to beat them, they have to know they were wrong to oppose us in the first place” -Gul Dukat, Star Trek: Deep Space 9

[@simonnick8422]

In regard to the Iron Hands, it seems their hightech aspect somehow seems to shrink in the background in comparison to the artisan Salamanders or engineering focused Iron Warriors. Correct me if I am wrong, but they seem to be the legion that fields the largest amount of hightech weaponry due to their generaly high technical skills and Ferrus developed and improved quite an amount of imperial weaponry.

[@jiffah]

yeah, sadly that is not really reflected in their rules at this point. Graviton shredders are pretty much the only special wargear they can get. The High-tech aspect is translated as "more machine than human" super-tough. I am hoping they get some toys when the inevitable "chapter approved/FAQ" comes out. (Like the option to put Gorgon armour on cataphractii command retinue, etc)

[@tomdamoose2461]

They should have got some legion unique automata + praevian as well as more master crafted / twin linked weaponry to better reflect their equipment being far more powerful etc

[@sinenomine7115]

The Iron Hands seem like the only Legion without a real niche. Like, ya sure they are bionic but they don't really have much character other than that because other Legions just kinda do most of what they do but better. The Iron Warriors dominate the tech niche because of Perturabo explicitly being the best Primarch engineer, the Death Guard have the tough niche due to just being biologically sturdier than everyone else, and the Salamanders have the blacksmithing niche due to Vulkan and Nocturne. They're kinda like less fleshed out Ultramarines to me, as even the Ultramarines have a distinct character and general strategic doctrine. I wish they'd given them the blacksmithing niche because it seems like that's kinda their thing, but when you think about craftsmen amongst the Primarchs Vulkan is usually who springs to mind.

[@TheArchermonkey]

Macca, this was a fantastic video. It's rare to see a video with such a great balance between lore and rules in how the Legions are analysed. And both are important!

[@guillermomelendez7950]

The principia bellicosa was written based on the knowledge and experience of the legion so basically the first legion is all the legions. It had to be said.

[@viatka1966]

It would be really helpful if you'd include timestamps in your videos

[@baron.7284]

This.

[@highmarshalbalian680]

2:48 is incorrect. Alpha Legion were the first legion sent out amongst the stars to pave the wave for the rest of the Great Crusade. This is revealed in the Alpharius Primarch book

[@ByzantineReactionary]

But that's a lie

[@TheOuterCircle]

The Alpha Legion didn't have many marines yet at the point when the Dark Angels were out killing Thunder Warriors. The Dark Angels were the only legions operating solo for the first decade of the Great Crusade and the Alpharius Retcon 101 book will never convince me otherwise.

[@highmarshalbalian680]

@@TheOuterCircle that Alpharius book was one of the best written Heresy era book. And was super cool 😎

[@s2korpionic]

That's a future retcon though, so I'd put more stock in the Dark Angels being the first legion to go to the stars in the Great Crusade.

[@Ra.vanZon]

Well yes maybe or mabye not, to trust the word of Alpharius is to trust lies itself nothing is true yet everything is

[@TmsFin]

Me, an intellectual Warsmith: Logistics, that is all.

[@thewayfarer8849]

*Sips tea from Imperial Fist skull perched atop shaking tank*

[@whatevernotmatter18347]

I, as a Thousand Sons fan, find this video well balanced and by no means biased xD jokes aside, really good video, if you got more ideas like this i encourage you to do them

[@OzymandiasRex]

Perfect video to share for people who unsure which Legion they should pick!

[@real-lomas-chenko]

How to say you're a thousand sons fan without saying you're a thousand sons fan

[@giancarlocoia3228]

He’s not wrong though😂

[@MkZuO12345]

He is tho

[@giancarlocoia3228]

@@MkZuO12345 in what way, it makes sense that in a 1v1 a legion that can call meteors form the sky to smash things and has all the armour that other legions have would win in a fair 1v1

[@real-lomas-chenko]

@@giancarlocoia3228 meteors? 🤣🤣🤣 you use your meteors while others are using orbital bombardments and see who wins

[@real-lomas-chenko]

@@MkZuO12345 isn't he just.

[@ruleofkoolwargaming4926]

I will be very interested in your review of the Iron Hands. As a newbie, IH feel like a legion that you are meant to lean into the toughness aspect. Using lots of grav and vehicles with the it will not die rules. They don’t seem to get offensive buffs, so I think it feels like a legion that you lean into the toughness and put all the upgrades on your dudes and tanks, and play against the opponent who will outnumber you, but you’ll last, which evens out the game. I’m sure that won’t be fun to play against, but it also seems to be the intended play style. I’ll be eager to hear your thoughts when you get to them.

[@gringlebandersnatch]

Humans: were just baseline sir, we're meant to be expendable. Vulkan: Not to me.

[@TheAlterspark]

Vulkan, values human life above his own, can't die, was singlehandedly wrecking people on Istvaan V so they had to nuke his ass lol. Horus "Why is my ambush not going according to plan?" Perturabo "Have you seen this man wading through our troops?!"

[@gringlebandersnatch]

@@TheAlterspark vulkan is a chad, a true champion of humanity

[@gringlebandersnatch]

@Zoomer Stasi and yet Konrad fails like he does at everything bar getting killed. Konrad is an amazing character, tragic and pitiful but he's a garbage tier Primarch.

[@dertydan]

excuse me you have alpha legion down as traitors please correct this error

[@jbumgarn]

I was hoping this would help me decide between Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children, and Sons of Horus. No such luck! It all sounds great to me.

[@lucianaurelius2418]

“The TS are the most powerful legion and would beat the ultramarines 1 on 1” Also the TS losing to the SW because of their pets turning into chaos spawns 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@TheOuterCircle]

Not really, you have an attacking enemy, outnumbering you, when you're not expecting a fight, supported by a force in the Sisters that take away your edge and the Custodes. It's a miracle the Thousand Sons survived.

[@lucianaurelius2418]

@@TheOuterCircle the Ultramarines won Calth and won the shadow Crusade in the same exact scenario but instead of outnumbered by a slightly larger legion the Ultramarines won despite being outnumbered 3:1 post Calth “I did the math” and having most of their fleet/titans destroyed! On and that’s another thing your entire legion is useless just by throwing a psychic blank at them

[@falcata91]

I think the wolves represent total loyalty to the emperor instead of being the executioners. In fact, the threefold legion are different variants pf loyalty. The Salamanders to humanity; the AL to the dream of the EM and the SW to big daddy.

[@TheOracleBeats]

Lets go Raven Guard!!!

[@galaththeplaguebringer1901]

This really helps me define my DA force better thanks. Also would using 40k TS be ok if I were to swap helmets and bolters

[@azarael77]

I'm planning to do so, too. At least for veterans.

[@KnightsofTitan]

For the most part 40k thousand models are fine. You would just have to cut of all the demon bits and chaos iconography which thankfully there's very few of. Maybe swap out the heads if you going to use them as non veterans. Otherwise they work very well

[@amg5787]

His getting starting on Thousand Sons, he says you can, and exactly, with a few swaps. If you haven’t seen it, give it a watch.

[@01oo011]

My largest force being Blackshields... FML.

[@colinpenfold9890]

Did they release rules for Black shields in 2.0

[@kylenguyen7371]

@@colinpenfold9890 I heard that a separate codex/"Liber" was coming for the Blackshields, but no release date was given for it yet.

[@Gimo_NET]

Lmao at least blackshields got a mention in the pdf, imagine playing shattered legions haha lmao couldn't be me haha right?

[@colinpenfold9890]

Funny thing is my IW and SoH were designed with shattered legion in mind back in the day I have three basilisks for example one painted in IW colours and the other two in SOH colours

[@hironagamaki9744]

So if I interpret these by today standards: 1)Dark Angel - all rounder knight hospitaller? 3) Emperor's Children - 17th century duelist Nobility 4)iron warriors- WW1 siege and artillery RTS 5) white scars - high mobility warriors like Mongols or samurai 6)space wolves - scouting wolf packs skirmishers 7) imperial fist- tower defence, castle defenders 8)night lords- morally worst kind of secret police 9) Blood Angels- Dragoons 10) iron Hands - heavy infantry Breachers 12) World Eaters - berserkers 13) Ultramarine- general strategy and logistics management 14)death guard- chemical warfare 15)thousand sons - tactical fast action RTS X-COM ( or Dawn of War 2) 16)sons of horus- green beret 17)Word bearers - Church Militant 18)salamander- fire fighters 19)raven guard - jungle guerrilla 20) Alpha Legion - spies and sabetour Feel free to correct me but this is how I see them in 30mins of thinking

[@okonkwojones]

Almost perfect-my only quibble is Ive always thought of Iron Hands as more of the tankers-but like WWII British Infantry/cav tank doctrine-them being the infantry side-where they’re kind of stubbornly inflexible in their roles by design.

[@terrysaunders7107]

The Iron Hands was so overwhelming during the great crusade - their Primarch was sent right to legends for being unbalanced for the setting.

[@guilliman1990]

nuking shit from orbit is a tactic Macca how dare you.

[@thewayfarer8849]

"Know your Legion" UM/IF/EC Players: Yes, yes this is straightforward AL/DA Players: Yes...this has a certain appeal Really enjoying the series, thank you for helping a lot of people get into the meat of the hobby

[@danlewis5491]

ah yes lucius. still waiting on his model.

[@anson6260]

have you even read Prospero burns. The thousand sons were not caught by surprise, they saw everything coming but knew they couldn't win.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I have read them, and they were caught by surprise, Magnus deliberately clouded their vision, hell, half of them didn't have their armour on when the Wolves came.

[@Stix_n_Stones418]

I’m very interested as to why you think the death guard’s rules are so forgiving, and as to why they are an easier legion to play from a rules perspective. Their legion trait has more restrictions on it than any other one.

[@KnightsofTitan]

Movement is a very big deal in 2.0. it can wins games and the fact you can never pin a death guard model is what makes them forgiving.

[@Stix_n_Stones418]

@@KnightsofTitan it is indeed a very big deal but in the way it is implemented there are only a few times it’s actually ever going to be helpful, especially since any kind of alternative move like getting out of a transport or charge cancels all your bonuses and you suddenly are -2 to move anywhere you go and lose move and shoot as stationary

[@TheOuterCircle]

Relentless combined with not being pinned combined with the fact that because you're not pinned you can utilise your reactions better all adds up. Plus their wargear is really good.

[@Stix_n_Stones418]

@@TheOuterCircle you just don’t suffer the movement penalty for being pinned, you still can’t charge or not snap fire, and cannot make reactions. And it’s not true relentless as any kind of movement out of a vehicle or from deepstrike or the like still gives you penalties, leaving you restricted to just units that start their turn on the field, preventing you from protecting them the turn before, making you have to weather a turn just to get any legion bonus.

[@Stix_n_Stones418]

And while the scythe is decent, with the nerf to templates and alchem flamers having gets hot, I see it as much more of a side grade. And don’t get me started on toxin bombs lol, still salty the play test version didn’t stick around.

[@anguswilsonspillane1302]

I am curios now woudl you do a tier list of what legon would be strongest in lore.

[@sinenomine7115]

In terms of general warfare, Tier 1 would probably be Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Sons of Horus, the Iron Warriors, and the Space Wolves. Four of those 5 had the largest number of compliances to their name, with the Iron Warriors being in that tier because they are explicitly stated to be incredibly good at breaking enemies nobody else could handle. After that it's a little hard to judge. A lot of the other Legions were very specialized and as a result had critical weaknesses that any of those top 5 could exploit pretty easily.

[@Michaelkayslay]

What colour do I pick!,,

[@FueganTV]

As much as I'm not a fan of Space Doggies myself, they did NOT fail the assault of Prospero. They would have murdered Magnus and all the remaining survivors if not for the direct intervention of Tzeentch.

[@nukethenatelore]

They almost lost bro. They had the mass of their legion attacking an undefended forces with full surprise who's primarch didn't even come out till the end of the battle. They only won cause they had hundreds of custodians, fuckin valdor himself, and the absolute hard counter to the tsons in the sos. I'd say the tallons won the burning not the wolves.

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@nukethenatelore It literally was a Pyrrhic victory!! Listening to Oculus Imperia's mini series on the Burning of Prospero really opened my eyes. I never knew how close the battle was. The TSs absolutely buttfucked the Wolves and would have won were it not for the SoS.

[@nukethenatelore]

@@jamesespinosa690 people underestimate how fucking hard nulls as powerful as sos fuck over psykers. the tsons sent a few hundred terms to just attempt to suicide TWO sos who were protected by custodies. just two was seen as enough value to warrant a suicide charge. The wolves acted kinda like the guard do with normal sm. they filled in the gaps where custodies and sos couldnt be. And tbh, for an anti astarties legion the wolves have tried and failed 3 times to really fight other legions. WE, tsons, and the sons of horus. All three times russ didnt accomplish his goal. Angron didnt give a shit, mag still lived, and horus still lived.

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@nukethenatelore Russ is a trash Primarch. I like the Legion a lot. But I cannot stand their Primarch. Him getting the "Executioner" title was always fucking cringe, and I knew the moment I first heard it. That he would only ever be a fuck up.

[@rakshithanand8262]

@@jamesespinosa690 The Thousand Sons (and Magnus) were also on their well fortified home ground and being roided up by the Warp juice of Tzeentch, thus many times more powerful than they would have been otherwise. This is like saying that Horus is better than the Emperor because he killed Sanguinius before fighting the emperor too and making him a vegetable. True, but lacking context. As for Russ, he did beat Magnus and later had a fair crack at Horus too. Besides, his arrogance leads to great character development so I really prefer him as a flawed but improving individual rather than a perfect Mary Sue.

[@Azkaellon9001]

Most of this video is Thousand Sons 😂 Sure they're a strong legion but you've gotta understand your own bias, we all know you love them to bits and everyone is the same with the legion they relate the most to. Pretty much every legion is equivalent since they're the best in their own way, except for Word Bearers unless you include Daemon allies as a part of the army. At the end of the day you've got to try and understand your own favouritism and try and exclude it or balance it out, I personally suffer the same thing with the Blood Angels and obviously the books don't quite help with even Horus being... you know what I'm gonna stop there before my bias shows 😂

[@strogg13]

just mechanicum...

[@MkZuO12345]

I think you kinda missed the point on Iron Warriors. They actually are not "brute force" legion (like World Eaters - which I play, or Space Wolves). They are much more sophisticated warriors, they are mathematicians for whom war is mathematical equation needing solving. Yes, they heavily use the artillery, but with surgical precision to exploit weakspots in defenses (It is also the most efficent way - minimizing manpower losses). You could call them "min-maxers" of warfare. They are very good tacticians albeit inflexiable ones. Yes their campaings were always marked with high losses, but only because their campaings were the most gruelling, long sieges. They hardly had campaigns like Luna Wolves (e.g. against Orcs where you just smash whole legion against their Boss and the enemy crumbles in one decisive battle). And they showed this during Siege of Terra. If not for the Horus's gamble backfiring and Loyalist reinforcements, the Palace would fall.

[@TheOuterCircle]

If the maths says they'll win, they will do it, there's logic in there, yes, they won't just go the same strategy, but they will use attrition methods when they don't need to.

[@Zabzim]

Hi can you please give me some advice. I’ve got a DA chaplain in a 20 man Deathwing despoiler squad, should you give the chaplain the Ravenwing hexagrammaton for the run bonus or the Firewing hexagrammaton for bonus against independent characters. I think Ravenwing since you already have the sword bonus but it does make the chaplain less good itself.

[@pimmoh5159]

or just run what you think looks cool and fits

[@Zabzim]

@@pimmoh5159 I’m already building the army to fit the narrative, my question is in regard to you know win some games. The thing with dark angels is you basically give each unit a faction with give then a bonus but your independent character can have a different faction and at the start of every turn you can choose which faction you’ll play as. Deathwing get +1 to hit with swords which is great with despoiler whom have chain swords but I want to know what the best back up faction bonus I should take.

[@TheOuterCircle]

It doesn't matter too much as Dark Angels have a lot of soft bonuses, they are built around flexibility of playstyles.

[@TheRandomNightLord]

NightLords gang with some Raven Guard moments

[@TheOuterCircle]

Charcharadons.

[@TheRandomNightLord]

I forgot they were a thing maybe I should do the sharks next after Raven and Night lord get the emo boy bands going

[@sirhektur7879]

Why is alpha legion traitors, if they have no Traitor units? :)

[@ashlevrier]

After having played several games now. IF are good. But not broken. A list of dreads will walk all over a IF army. We played a mega battle just for fun and 3k Ultra dreads walked and took the whole table. My IF was ignored the entire time. This was a 18000 point game a side. 3 dreads died that game.

[@TheOuterCircle]

To be honest, dreadnoughts will do that in literally any army, to any army, it's a really bad benchmark.

[@Klajnepojken]

A list of dreads will murderfuck anything mate

[@darkmadbat_]

*Imperial Fists aren't as good at breaking the castle* Two weeks soloing the Iron Cage and the best the Iron Warriors can manage is mutual annihilation.

[@razalfraz6618]

This really sounds like a cope

[@rakshithanand8262]

That whole ‘mutual annihilation’ bit comes from the Imperial “history” . You bet that if Dorn could have pulled a mutual kill he would have, he killed Alpharius with a similar tactic. At the end of the day who needed rescuing and who escaped by themselves?

[@rakshithanand8262]

@@Infernal_Puppet Maybe, but I prefer that, at the end of the day, neither understood the other enough to win, so they both lost. Dorn came in with an 'at all costs' Black Templar mentality to overwhelm Perturabo, never respecting him enough to think that he might not take the bait like Alpharius. He failed to take or kill Perturabo. Perturabo let Dorn live at first because of petty spite, only to be blindsided by Guilliman because he didn't understand that they were still brothers and could work together. Plus his decimation of the Fists ironically made Dorn stronger and more prepared for the realities of 40k. He failed to kill or break Dorn's will. The Iron Cage was really won by Guilliman, who saved Dorn and secured his cooperation... thanks to Perturabo.