They shouldn't have been piloting - N452DA

[@humanbeing2420]

If you absolutely must remain in a job you suck at doing, choose a field in which incompetence has non-fatal consequences.

[@treystephens6166]

Like Dishwashing? I can’t seem to do better then that. 😕

[@AirForceChmtrails]

Like politics?

[@randymillhouse791]

Porn actors suck at their jobs....

[@treystephens6166]

@@randymillhouse791 it must awesome to be a porn actor.

[@randymillhouse791]

@@treystephens6166 Sure, with the exception of burning sensations from multiple communicable diseases at once.

[@whiskeybravo91]

In the NTSB report, they had interviews and this flight was actually changed to a positioning flight last minute; they originally had passengers but the pilot's flying and landing in Philly scared them (the passengers) so much they cancelled the last flight and chose to drive instead

[@tchevrier]

is that true?

[@webb3251]

wow

[@PoppysGuitar]

You have to be kidding, right?

[@Tvuvtctoj46fck]

@@tchevrier yes

[@ianhandforth5672]

good call..do they know next weeks lottery numbers

[@samgunn12]

Sounds like this crash probably saved a lot of lives in the long run.

[@sparky6200]

EXACTLY what I was thinking. They were both dead men the day they decided to become pilots, just a matter of when & how

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

@@sparky6200 Whoever passed these guys on any simulator or check-rides should lose their license(s). These guys were clearly horrible, they needed to go back to flight school and start from Day 1.

[@sgtstedanko7186]

@@Skank_and_Gutterboy or just stay away from aviation at all

[@lioncurlew]

Sounds like instant Karma

[@dyates6380]

Exactly.

[@kehreazerith3016]

Holding your airspeed within 5-10kts is the most basic skill taught as you go into being a private pilot, how the hell did these people get into the cockpit of a jet like that. Also pretty much everything he failed at in those tests were the most basic of basic like controlling your plane in basic maneuvers and doing check lists. Normally people fail their stage checks and check rides due to small issues that can be corrected easily but going into a jet simulator and crashing your plane multiple times while receiving professional level training is a massive red flag.

[@josephhaas7413]

It’s crazy how many people let it slide. I mean, if you hold altitude and lower the power setting, in most any aircraft, you’ll lose speed. Guess that was lost on the SIC.

[@bubbaman12289]

I'm at 35 hrs in a 172 Cessna and I can hold my speed within 5 knots pretty decent for my hrs. I would think a nice jet like this would be a little easier to hold your speed

[@fighterace284]

@@bubbaman12289 jets are tough because they don't have instant reactions to inputs like a Skyhawk would. Jets need time to spool up so you need to be ahead of the curve by quite a bit.

[@ddegn]

@@fighterace284 I agree. Based on watching multiple aircraft related KZbin videos (which basically makes me an expert on the subject), I've heard many times speed control in a jet is much harder than in a propeller driven airplane. Jet engines take time to spool up and slow down. After reading comments from others, it sounds like Lear Jets can be a real handful to fly.

[@periapsis0]

Some here point out that jet engines respond slower than props and that is true (but only by a second or two, it's not a big deal for a normal or even novice jet pilot). This SIC was on AUTOPILOT altitude-hold and still couldn't control the speed. All he had to operate were the throttles, no more than an accelerator in a car. This is a one-dimensional equation; fast vs slow, and he was overwhelmed by it. But the accident is not his fault. The Captain requested FL270 for a 100 mile flight in the most congested airspace in the US. No professional IFR-qualified pilot in the world would have requested over 10,000 ft, knowing it was impossible to be cleared for it and would be impossibe to even fly! You can't get to 27,000 before having to descend at that range even if you were in Timbuktu with no air traffic control. Overwhelmed by the circling approach into TEB? Circline approaches are challenging but shouldn't kill anyone, especially in VFR. Just GO AROUND and try again and eveyone lives. The Captain appears to have been incopetent from start to very sad finish. (my experience: 19,000 flying hours, gliders to B767)

[@jamesgraham6122]

The captain had zero situational awareness of just where T'Boro was located in relation to the departure airport..to be requesting FL270 when within 10 min or so of arrival should have put ATC on alert. Something also not covered here, it mentions that the aircraft was on a 'positioning' flight to T'Boro. what it fails to mention is just why there were no passengers. The passengers were due to continue the trip to T'Boro but were so concerned about the performance of the crew that they decided to discontinue the planned flight after the stopover at Phillidelphia and rent a car for the onward journey. Excellent decision.

[@rockymac3565]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but all the reports I've read state that the crew were taking the plane to Teterboro to reposition it for charter flights later that week. The plane started the day at Tereboro and had then flown to New Bedford, Mass, before continuing to Philadelphia. They'd dropped off four passengers and didn't actually need to fly back to Teterboro that day. However, the crew decided that they'd prefer to stay in a hotel they knew in NY rather than stay overnight in Philadelphia. The fact that it was the crew's decision to fly that day suggests there were no passengers planned for the flight. This is according to a statement by the company they worked for. Of course, it could have been that they didn't need to fly back to Teterboro because the passengers had bailed, but I'm struggling to believe that the charter company would have reacted to four passengers refusing to fly by just saying to the crew "Oh well, never mind. Just bring the plane back to Teterboro whenever it's convenient for you!" That said, I'm still struggling to comprehend how the pilots managed to make so MANY bad decisions in such a short time, so nothing should really surprise me! The real puzzle for me about the story of the passengers refusing to fly is that I'd have expected those passengers to be on every news channel saying "We were right" after it became clear what had caused the crash, or for them to have at least contacted the NTSB after the crash to give them useful background information. I've read a lot about this crash since I first heard of it because it's so shocking and perhaps I've just missed the relevant reports, but I'd be genuinely interested in the source for the story you mentioned.

[@stevek8829]

What mental illness causes so many to enjoy writing nonsense posts on social media. Did you need attention? 👀

[@DiCoopola]

😧

[@tgfabthunderbird1]

The Captain's cavalier attitude in part sounds to me like he was showing off his experience to the SIC-0, and this young fellow went along with the chance to fly, despite knowing he was not qualified to do more than monitoring. The SIC must have been eager to prove himself, so he went with it. The deficiencies of the Captain noted at the 9-minute mark show someone barely competent and figured that because he'd passed his check ride, knew it all. Pilots have always earned my respect, for their discipline, attention to detail and professionalism. Then, we have this guy...I feel bad for their families, but here were two people who should not have been teamed up, let alone flying.

[@zromo8994]

Holy shit. In that case, I think it's actually good this happened. Otherwise, they surely would've killed innocent passengers

[@Rev1Kev]

Those pilots were so far behind their plane, they did not arrive on the crash scene, until 5 minutes later……. According to the CVR, not a single checklist was preformed, Pre, taxi, prearrival, Nothing

[@Flightstar]

That's funny, but so tragically true.

[@georgec4917]

Hard to believe a pilot with that many hours was so inept.

[@reginaldgraves1684]

Over fifty years old and less than 6000 hours! That is very low and the incompetence shown here is not surprising.

[@Flies2FLL]

I'm suspecting that there was a lot of "graphite" flight time in both their logbooks. I. E. they fudged their actual time...

[@jmd12127]

@@reginaldgraves1684 It's not about "how much time you have." That's irrelevant and a poor measure of pilot skill and aptitude. I have just over 4,000 hours (I started flying professionally later in life) and routinely fly this very approach in a 3-engine Falcon Jet with ZERO problems.

[@lbowsk]

@@jmd12127 Don't hurt your shoulder.

[@seltaeb9691]

A Lear jet pilot & ferrying top peoples can become lax & a bit Top Gun & they must be professional at all times. This Captain wasn't. It goes on.

[@pilotembgamers4644]

I’ll bet this captain had a known reputation at this company and first officers knew his name. He’s the guy you hope you never see on your schedule. Probably crews complained about him but nothing ever happened.

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

Yep, I'll bet a lot of guys that drew him on the flight schedule called in sick. I feel bad for the poor dude that got shoved out there to fly with him, walking out to that plane would be like walking out to the gallows.

[@carlosa7807]

Probably had some sharp FOs that kept him out of trouble. Paired with an FO that wasn’t as sharp and disaster was imminent

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

@@carlosa7807 Yep. These two seemed to feed on each others non-professionalism.

[@ChadDidNothingWrong]

I think you got it man...I'd love to interview some of those FO's

[@jimdavis1939]

Former Lear 35 captain here, these two guys were dead before engine start in Philadelphia.

[@jimh4375]

The passengers who landed with them in Philly seem to agree with your assessment. They canceled their flight and rented a car because the landing was so bad. Here is the exact quote: They taxied and took off with no problems. The flight was turbulent as they flew through the front but the forecast all day was the front from the northeast to PHL would clear out, and it was clear skies when they landed. He said the landing was one of the scariest he had ever experienced. As the front came through PHL, there as pretty strong winds behind it and the weather was moving through pretty fast. He had flown into PHL before and they always landed on a different runway than the big jets used. This runway was shorter. The wind was from west and they were landing more to the northwest. When they were about 5 or 6 feet off the ground, the plane felt like it fishtailed as if it was a car on ice. The tail fishtailed so much he thought at one point they were going to land at 90 degrees to the runway. His brother sitting next to him grabbed his hand on the armrest and was like “holy cow, what the hell was that.” They landed and then got off the plane. They went into the bathroom, getting ready to get in the car, and his brother looked at him and said, “I don’t want to fly on that plane anymore.” They both looked at each other and “said let’s drive up to TEB.” They did not want to have to go through that again since it was unnerving. They told the pilots they were just going to get in the car, go play in this golf tournament and then drive up to NJ and “you guys do what you gotta do.” An hour or two later he saw on one of the news apps that said a small plane crash in northern New Jersey. That night his brother said to turn the news in New York and they saw the red tail of a plane embedded in a hangar or warehouse outside a runway and they knew the tail number and learned that it was the airplane they had been on.

[@jimdavis1939]

@@jimh4375 Wise choice on their part.

[@wayneyd2]

Brain dead anyway. Just glad no one on the ground was hurt.

[@Chance-ry1hq]

A couple of geniuses in that plane. The big question is who hired them. Lesson learned, never get on a Trans Pacific Jet.

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

Yep, now you know whose planes not to ride. I'd steer clear of the airports that they frequent, too.

[@franfran6152]

Yup! Their actions and attitudes speak volumes about Trans Pacific's standards and hiring practices. It's more likely these guys are the norm than the exception

[@ThisIsSolution]

Dude flew the plane like he did the simulations

[@VictoryAviation]

I couldn't believe his list of nopes from the simulator training. I've flown about 20hrs in FAA approved simulators and never failed that badly even when we cranked crosswinds, turbulence, and lowered minimums to ridiculous levels.

[@begudmaximan953]

Yeah, unbelievable really.

[@Meowface.]

Yank n bank baby Highway to the danger zone!

[@veramae4098]

"... noted the crews' unprofessional behavior." Oh, like cursing at the ATC?

[@Kaanfight]

Just like the simulations…

[@PoppysGuitar]

I had a friend from high school who was training to be a pilot. He was training out of Long Island and he another trainee went up with a CFI that loved to overwhelm his students with dangerous scenarios like shutting off engines at low altitude while performing complex maneuvers, etc. He would flip switches off and then flip them back on, give confusing cross instructions, distract the trainees, induce stalls, shut off fuel, etc. Well one day he so overwhelmed the trainees that he overwhelmed himself and killed my friend and the other trainee. Its here somewhere and you can read about it.

[@davidlanham99]

God, what a lunatic.

[@kylieharrison3782]

😭

[@phillawrence5148]

Sounds like he should not have been training anybody.

[@maxfullerton5228]

Jesus Christ. I get trying to prepare Pilots for the worst but do that sh*t in a simulator !

[@PoppysGuitar]

@@maxfullerton5228 uH WHAT? It wasn't a simulator it was over the Atlantic Ocean. The these guys were in a twin engine if I recall and the CFI had a reputation for really stressing trainees. These guys were working on their professional pilot's license. Apparently the CFI switched the fuel off and then switched off the engine at relatively low altitude and then when he went to restart the engine he forgot that he shut off the fuel and the engine failed to restart the plane rolled and went right in. I read it years ago on some NTSB report but I can't remember all the details. It's out there somewhere.

[@georgemallory797]

My uncle flew Lears for 40 years, from 23's right through the 55. I've ridden with him in a 24A. Highly competent pilot and even he said they are a handful. You could get rusty after just a couple weeks not flying a Lear. Very unforgiving plane in the wrong hands.

[@tamipalin8171]

My dad flew them for 35 years and he feels the same way about them. He loved flying them but stated they could get completely away from you very, very quickly, you really had to stay on top of them.

[@nickinportland]

Interesting. I’d love to see a video by a Lear captain with more details.

[@dustynova171]

Could the 250 knot speed have been too low, and should the airport flight coordinator have set such a low speed for this style of airplane. It sounds to me, no only is there a great deal of chauvinism among pilots, the people directing them aren't trained sufficiently to make certain flight suggestions, ie speed, direction of turns, emergency landing choices, etc.

[@darrylr.4983]

@@dustynova171 They're limited to 250 knots below 10,000. That's for the entire USA. And flying in the congested airspace in the NE USA is a higher workload that other parts of the country. I've flown into TEB more times than I can count and I've had to do the ILS 6 circle to land 1 many times. They use that when the crosswind factor is too high to land on 6. Runway 1 has no instrument approach due to Newark airport being so close. The circle to land at TEB is a handful until you've done it a few times. It was crazy to attempt a turn that close in to runway 6. They should have just gone around when they realized their mistake.

[@future62]

The captain in this plane would have crashed anything

[@BitwiseMobile]

There is a reason why the FAA have identified five hazardous attitudes. These pilots exhibited at least 4 out of the 5: anti-authority, impulsivity, invulnerability, macho, and resignation

[@РоссийскаяФедерация-б4я]

Why do you think resignation?

[@50shanks]

​@@РоссийскаяФедерация-б4я pilot gives up when faced with difficult situations

[@tihspidtherekciltilc5469]

Rent a Car saved the passengers. There were passengers but they witnessed the incompetence and rented a car for the last leg. Imagine that feeling knowing how close you came to being some ink.

[@LuxPerp]

There were no passengers

[@hawkeye681]

There were passengers that flew with this crew on earlier flights and that’s where they witnessed their incompetence…… hence they saved their own lives by driving the final leg to TEB….

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

That's an urban legend.

[@N2KC]

@@Skank_and_Gutterboy Check out the interview with "Murphy van der Velde", found in the "Operations Attachment 1 - Interview Summaries" docket item of the NTSB report. Docket is CEN17MA183.

[@jefflewis4]

@@N2KC Murphy may have mistakenly believed their next flight was with the same plane and crew. The decision to drive to TEB did not prevent them from being on the flight. They were never scheduled to be on the TEB flight. See the Charter document, and the sister's (Patricia van der Velde) interview.

[@hotrodmercury3941]

Not only were they so unprofessional, not even a checklist? I'm a pilot and a trucker. Everytime I go on the road or fly, I check my vehicle. I also run through my checklist because they are there for a reason. I can't believe the language, unprofessionalism and failure to follow procedures. Darwin award goes to those guys

[@GhostWatcher2024]

Seriously. Checklists save lives. And then on top of it... how the heck did this guy maintain speed in a car?? Manually maintaining speed on an leer jet should be pretty easy, and altitude was automated, and this guy handled the plane like an 8 year old that just got his first bicycle.

[@joeymlnarik5805]

I worked for a company that owned this plane prior. I remember during a demo day, the current pilots saying this was the best plane they ever flew. I remember a pilot saying "This plane has good bones." That quote stuck with me for some reason, and I was sad when I heard about this crash.

[@VegasLounge]

Usually I feel some sympathy for the pilots/victims in these cases, but damn if the command pilot didn't squander that quickly.

[@Geigerzaehler]

That poor plane was a very innocent victim!

[@thedeathwobblechannel6539]

I drive a car and even if I was training somebody I would do something like get them out on the highway away from town and then pull over and let them drive for a while then as we got back to town I would switch back what the hell is it with people usually when you're in charge you got some ego going because hey I'm in charge this guy could give a crap

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

@@thedeathwobblechannel6539 I agree, that's why you start them making some basic moves in a parking lot, then move to a 25 MPH street with little to no traffic, and so on. You don't start somebody on the freeway in rush-hour traffic the first time out. The older I get, the more I realize what an idiot my high school driver's ed teacher was in the 1980s. There were no parking lot maneuvers, our first time was on the streets driving a manual transmission with some cracked old man yelling at us the whole time. It was so nerve-racking that every class had people that flat-out refused to attend the class after the first trip out in the car and were re-scheduled into a study-hall. I was damn near one of them but I was really determined to get my license the day I turned 16. As surprising as it was that this shockingly incompetent teacher was kept on as the driver's ed instructor, the principal would rave about how great he was. This guy was getting awards. We used to joke that he had a picture of the principal screwing a pig, that's why he could do anything he wanted.

[@VegasLounge]

@@thedeathwobblechannel6539 I have to ask, given your screen name…Jeep driver? I love my girl but she’s got the wobble, lol.

[@thefez-cat]

That grading on the simulator test for the SIC could have been summed up as "not entirely sure he's even a pilot."

[@SOLDOZER]

Flew Microsoft Flight Sim in 1998....maybe.

[@daveluttinen2547]

Reminds me of that scene with Clint Eastwood sitting in the pilots seat of that 707. "No sir, never had a lesson."

[@OttoMatieque]

on the bright side, no passengers will ever be relying on either of these two pilots

[@chadmichael1773]

Jesus H! As a Private Pilot myself, this is unreal. Fully. I’m confident even I could have managed this issue. I’m lost. Doesn’t even sound like they’re even pilots! The BASICS! Missed em all.

[@davidlanham99]

I don't even know how to fly and I'm thinking I could find the runway and not stall. Since my life would depend on it.

[@bubbaman12289]

20k feet for a 20 min flight.....my boy...damn that flight plan was nutty

[@l337Jeff]

Have been into TEB many times. The ILS 6, circle to 1 is a handful of a maneuver, even when you are proficient in the airplane and on your game. Got to be way ahead of the curve and it can be a somewhat steep angle of bank at a relatively low altitude. My first red flag on this trip was: FL330 for a short repo leg? Wtf?

[@Ryan-re1rs]

Yes, but to stall and crash because you can't fly a plane has nothing to do with the landing maneuver. I can't feel bad for these people, especially since I heard the people that were on this flight were so scared they got off and refused to fly with the pilots anymore.

[@hotrodray6802]

Both of these pilots should have recognized this unstable and untenable approach and done a go around. Continuing a bad approach is ALWAYS a bad situation. NOBODY would fault any pilot for going around. CP 54 years JMO.

[@hardworker1957]

Command pilot won the Darwin Award.

[@mitseraffej5812]

When I was out of work I was offered a job flying an old Lear 35. I had previously flown a variety of airliner and business jets. After having a close look at the Lear I politely declined. No leading edge slats and very little wing.

[@wtfsalommy3250]

Glides like a brick :-b

[@fcaughli]

F104

[@jamesburns2232]

The older Lear 35's autopilots don't have auto throttle and you have to manually adjust power. You have to be able to hand fly the airplane and can't rely on the auto pilot. That makes it a dangerous airplane to fly for pilots used to having autopilots that they routinely use to lessen their workload. 👨‍✈

[@mitseraffej5812]

@@jamesburns2232 I have considerable time on the 737-200. It has no auto throttle and a very rudimentary auto pilot but is a very easy airplane to hand fly. The 737-800 has plenty of bells and whistles but a real pig in comparison to the 200. The Dassault Falcon range are docile once the leading edge slats are out. To my mind the Lear 35 is a plane you would want to line up with the runway 10 miles out, not circle low level.

[@boblawblaw6875]

The airline should assume the bulk of the responsibility for this accident. These “pilots” should not have been anywhere near a plane.

[@eriksimca9409]

feels like aviation needs to put some sort of limit to how many tests you can do until you pass.... being a commercial pilot isnt a joke... and just letting someone keep doing tests until they pass but they still perform very badly aint it.... if they dont pass after certain amount of tests they´re out..... should be anyway

[@memcrew1]

Are you a working pilot?

[@jamespenny9482]

Agree

[@Spiritbomber28]

you’d be surprised at some of the incompetence that still makes it out of the other side of those checkrides even if they did that

[@Halfshanks]

Instructor: "Crashed in a simulated takeoff and landing. Doesn't know how to start engines. Flew INVERTED." Trans-Pacific Air Charter: "By God, put that man on a plane right now!"

[@clayjo791]

In NYC you couldn't even drive a bus with such a negative report from the instructor.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

(Flew inverted) Flight monitor :...Hey, wanna see something I saw in a movie..?

[@htos1av]

Aviation is not like rock and roll, you can't fake it 'til you make it.

[@devinthierault]

"Youre the kind of woman got a heart of stone But watch it break when I get you alone Take a chance, come lay down with me Oh, I wanna make it" "Negative Joe Elliot go around!"

[@williamfeilhauer]

I hate to see that happen to anyone. God bless their souls.

[@i_love_rescue_animals]

Yikes! The incompetency of these pilots is truly scary. I'm glad no one else was on board! - and no one was hurt on the ground!

[@westerlywinds5684]

We don’t even hire these types as bus drivers.

[@todd3563]

Just like a driving test you have people operating vehicles who really shouldn't, but they take the test enough times and barely pass.

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

This isn't the first time that a commercial carrier was guilty of treating bad pilots with the kid gloves and taking the attitude that they'll become passable pilots as they accumulate flight hours, then they go on to crash. I'm just glad that Captain Amateur-Night and his little apprentice didn't kill any normal people.

[@hatman4818]

@Skank_and_Gutterboy The FAA is making it worse with the 1500 rule, putting even more emphasis on hours than quantifiable quality like checkrides. I didnt even know that was a recent rule either, or one only present in the US, but when I first started looking into getting an ATP, I was like... Holy sh@t, who can afford any of this? Why is there such a huge gap between CPL and ATP?

[@robot_spider]

Like the old joke, "You know what they call the guy who finishes last in his class at med school? 'Doctor'"

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

@@hatman4818 I didn't know that was a rule, either. That is jacked up.

[@robot_spider]

If there's one thing I've learned in 3 decades as PIC of Microsoft Flight Simulator, you don't fly a Learjet unless you know what you're doing. Fortunately, my ineptitude has only resulted in smeared pixels, and no loss of life.

[@GeeBee909]

arrogance, name calling and hubris all came together here with deadly results. It figures that the last words heard from the plane were an expletive

[@Dan-oj4iq]

GeeBee: Actually this stands out to me as a main factor in the crash. Although one can have this type of personality behavior and still be a competent pilot, the odds, in the long run, are against you.

[@mikoto7693]

It’s fascinating really. While I cuss all the time while driving, the moment I have a passenger then I keep it in my head. My default setting is to try to work with the people around me. It actually reminds me of a job I had years ago as a cleaner. On my ward I had to have a partner because it was too much for one person to do and for awhile they couldn’t get someone permanent so I had overtime, agency or flexi staff working with me. The typical way was to split the ward in half although if one of us got snowed under by many patients being moved or discharged then the other cleaner would step in to help. And I near perfectly seamlessly adjusted to each person until this one overtimer was assigned to my ward for three days and she never helped me, even when I was in the kitchen doing the legally required temperature probes within the time limit and a bed needed cleaning in my half with the patient already having been sent to the ward and was on a gurney in the corridor waiting. She refused to do it even when the nurse in charge ordered it, seeing as I couldn’t be available for another fifteen minutes. We reported her but by then it was too late and I’d finished the legal checks anyway. The supervisor forced her to do it and helped herself to get this bed space cleaned. I was so utterly shocked by this girl’s behaviour. Afterwards the supervisor took her away and half an hour later a new partner walked in and I never saw the other one again. In our case the patient waited a bit longer, but in a flight deck that could have been a real problem.

[@artysanmobile]

All the hallmarks of cocaine.

[@eradicator187]

We don't have to worry about these two anymore. Sad part is there are many more just like them waiting for you to board.

[@donnafromnyc]

I live up the hill from TEB and something like this has always scared me. Aircraft are vectored right over Hackensack Hospital. But South Hackensack and Little Ferry are most vulnerable.

[@didamnesia3575]

Superman will always save Hackensack

[@LunaticFringeHunter]

Amateur Hour, for sure. The 20 and 30 series Lears are not for the faint of heart, they're powerful, slippery and unforgiving. She's a cruel mistress and, if mishandled, will introduce you to "Mr. Bye-Bye" in a flash.

[@Brian-kl1zu]

Quoting a pithy aviation expression; "the ground rose up to smite them."

[@OlJarhead]

At least these two incompetent pilots didn't take any passengers out with them.

[@Akumasama]

Or hurt anyone on the ground. F for the plane though.

[@dx1450]

This video reminds me of a line from "Airplane!" "He's a danger to everything in the air.... birds too."

[@Whitpusmc]

I’m amazed that pilots with the amount of hours these gentlemen had, had such difficulties flying this plane.

[@markwalton3706]

May i suggest looking for Premier 1 Driver youtube channel and watching how far ahead of the aircraft Greg is at all times ... compare that to the pilots here.

[@jritechnology]

These are 2 people that the NTSB failed to take out of the air, but the universe felt differently.

[@waldoinaz]

The NTSB doesn’t take people out of the air. That’s the FAA’s job. The NTSB is better at cleaning up crash sites and pretending they know something about aviation and accident investigations.

[@ARUSApacecarHAMPTON]

The NTSB only investigates accidents, the FAA is responsible for pilot training and licensing. They definitely missed this one.

[@Chellz801]

You mean the FAA?

[@preparedbleach1815]

🤦‍♂️

[@jahnkaplank8626]

can't really blame the SIC; he was in over his head, because of the PIC.

[@brazenbunnies]

It’s a good thing they didn’t hurt his feelings by saying he was not qualified

[@justsumguy2u]

I guess to be a pilot with this company, all you really need is a few hours of flight simulator training and you're good to go

[@truthylucy7068]

Apparently!

[@jimBobuu]

Guess I need to fill out an application! I always wanted to be a pilot. I fix autopilots instead. But, I have 20 minutes of right seat time in a Comanche, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'm sure I'll get the gig!

[@frozenuruguayball6436]

Well I have been in a 737 cockpit so I’ll call them up and ask them if they need any captains😂

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

Correction: it's "Microsoft" flight simulator training.

[@isabellaangeline2175]

This is what scares me about flying. I know there are a lot of extremely competent pilots, but it’s the occasional ones like this and not trusting the airlines to ensure they’re properly trained that scares tf outta me. Oh, and it’s also the fact that airlines put profits ahead of passenger safety and will wait to make needed repairs, while the FAA looks the other way.

[@Unknown_Ooh]

Your major commercial airlines typically have much more stricter guidelines on training and not passing usually results in you being fired. It's the small private airlines you should be afraid of. That's where all the bad and new pilots end up at.

[@johnharris7353]

Yup!

[@karllieck9064]

Don't fly anymore. I haven't in 25 years and I don't miss it one bit. Flying is dangerous. It's the luck of the draw, baby.

[@largelampard3721]

Yes, it's quite scary but still it's the only way. Driving license were given if you pay enough money where I grew up. So road kill happens way more frequent than crashing planes. Incompetent pilots are everywhere because airlines don't want to invest in pilot training, so who ever can pay the training fee gets to be pilots. But at least planes are build with fail safe in mind and cars don't.

[@MrSuzuki1187]

You should be worried about flying with the airlines! At Southwest and United, they have DEI managers who hire new pilots based on skin color, gender, and gender identity rather than their previous flying experience and capability to fly a jet. The DEI gurus, who are not pilots, are now in charge of hiring.

[@xenimaging]

The 2nd in command "flew inverted when attempting to recover from an unusual attitude in the simulator" lol wut

[@Xmaslightsallyear]

I had an instructor like that. He seemed to be a common bully at heart who got off on repeatedly scaring the living hell out of his students. I was 19 and quit my training because of him.

[@alexr61]

I actually worked on this plane. It was owned by my company the first year I worked there and then it was sold to these people.

[@unfnbelievable3609]

Good thing that incompetent pilots were removed from the air without any passengers. That the company that allowed them to fly also lost a plane is absolutely a bonus.

[@sblack48]

It was first off a command failure. He let the FO fly and was not aware that the guy was painting him into a corner. To be a safe and effective instructor you have to be way ahead of the student. This guy was as lost as his student. His attempt to save the situation by doing an impossible turn speaks for itself.

[@franfran6152]

Well there's three problem, isn't it... that wasn't his student. He was his SIC (SIC-0, actually) meaning he wasn't cleared for any flying duties. Seems the PIC forgot that too. Also, that means there was only one fully capable pilot in that cockpit, which would be below minimum requirements. I think that war the first problem

[@sblack48]

@@franfran6152 the blind leading the blind. I guess he was trying to be a nice guy but he was not up to the task and he badly misjudged the SICs capability

[@ingvarhallstrom2306]

I suspect he handed over control to the FO for the simple reason he didn't know how to fly the plane and hoped the FO would do most of the flying.

[@SOLDOZER]

Should have taken controls when he saw the FO could not even do something so simple as maintain speed.

[@Saabjock]

I spent many years inspecting, fixing and flying around on the Lear 35. It is not an aircraft you want to have unskilled, inefficient pilots flying. It is a very unforgiving aircraft due to it's extremely high approach and maneuvering speeds.

[@BrianWMay]

The examiners needed the courage of their convictions and should have grounded both pilots. I've had to fail crewmembers in the simulator and whilst it's not comfortable ending someone's career, this is the potential result of NOT doing it. Had they had pax or worst still, impacted a residential area it could have been so much worse. The employers' chief pilot also has questions to answer.

[@timjones147]

At least these idiots didn’t kill anyone on the ground

[@johnsim3722]

That was the only good part of this story.

[@wallacegrommet9343]

Other than themselves

[@jahnkaplank8626]

I feel sorry for the SIC; it was not his fault.

[@andyb1653]

Learjets are notoriously difficult to fly. Whoever let these knuckleheads behind the controls of one is who REALLY caused this crash.

[@freshtapcoke]

“The captain yelled an expletive over the radio, which was the last communication received” SAVAGE 😂

[@jimmymiller77]

I have given many hours of instruction in the 25D's and 35's. I have no idea what this Captain was doing. He can't have been a CFI. This is so sad and uncalled for. It seems like too big of ego. Jim

[@stevek8829]

They both must have held ATPs. That's not easy to get. I forgot all about this one but remember wondering how two pros could be so to blame and nothing else. It wasn't two dentists in a Bonanza.

[@PInk77W1]

You have no idea what the captain was doing and neither did he. Sorry, I couldn’t resist

[@Chris-se8fi]

@@stevek8829 The Captain did the FO did not he had 1100 hours and was working to that goal , you need 1500 for ATP

[@romeogolf4]

Sadly, three buildings and 16 vehicles on the ground were harmed.

[@wallacegrommet9343]

At least the pilots didn’t make it

[@SRMoore1178]

I would have felt safer flying with the "Sky King".

[@johnsim3722]

I'm left wondering why the pilot wasn't wanting to take controls? Too much booze the night before? I'd have expected him at the very least to take command on landing, but then even he didn't know where to put down the aircraft! I don't know how to fly, but I'd rather be the on piloting than those two! I'd rate my chances higher. The only good part of this story is they never killed anybody else.

[@mikoto7693]

Seriously, I think a lot of people with a few hours on X-plane or MSFS might have flown better than these two! I’ve tried X-Plane and Aerofly myself just long enough to realise that flying is not for me. I don’t have the patience to learn it.

[@johnsim3722]

@@mikoto7693 I tired some very early flight sims, really early ones! And I managed to land, which I'm happy with. Had these two managed to somehow put down the aircraft and live, I'd never want them to fly again! Even as passengers! Or cargo!

[@rtmdlawncare5774]

Followed the runway one heading too far in and then tried to make those turns ? Absolutely should have gone around and set up again. The pic was a hot head -I’ve flown with this type before. I chewed his ass out (on the ground )and I told them I’m never flying with that asshole again - he’s gonna be the death of someone. Never flew with him again and he was ultimately fired.

[@ChadDidNothingWrong]

Bro, if you fail 4 check rides, you should have to pass 4. This thing where you can just try and try until you finally manage just one safe flight is a disaster waiting to happen.

[@masmainster]

Can't believe that after belatedly taking over the aircraft controls the senior pilot still looked like he was trying to make the landing instead of going around.

[@smaze1782]

Great video. Would’ve been nice to hear the ATC coms though. These guys were menaces to society. How the hell did they last this long.

[@AC-te9dr]

How’s incompetence being a menace? Lol

[@centex7409]

People who have been in commercial and general aviation the last 25 years can easily see how this happened. The Air Force now run what few pilots they train until they're too old for a civilian career.. The private flight schools are just money grabbing schemes to fleece rich families, so they cater to the spoiled brat trust fund brigades.. The few older guys left are the ones that make little sense to me. They're childish like shown in this incident. Behaving more like petulant teens than men. I've encountered many like them across many a tarmac and ramp. It ain't what it used to be. I just stick to tiny nearly forgotten backwater airfields for my Mooney. I'm finally getting old enough that if I catch a ramp check, they just check my fuel level, flight plan and verify my weight and balance and paperwork. When I was in my 20's, it was just a urine sample and rarely anything else. Haven't seen a ramp check in nearly a decade now. Lol! Now that I've noticed that, I'll probably get ramp checked soon..

[@SmokeShadow49311]

Wow. It was like those pilots weren't even trying (to fly or land the plane).

[@Theoriginalbubbafett]

With the current pilot shortage, this may not be the last….

[@mobucks555]

I like when channels like this use narration. It's a PITA having to speed read the text on the other more popular channels. Subbed.

[@Brian-kl1zu]

Speed reading is right. In aviation videos; Some longer text goes past pretty quickly. I dislike constantly pausing the video to read; so end up enduring an Evelyn Woods "speed reading" session. Not saying I'm a slow reader; I'm not. However; a lot of unfamiliar terms appear in the text. No time to think. Unless I....Pause.

[@jcarlovitch]

The fact that the co pilots evaluation stated he did not know how to start the engines would have been a asset in this flight.

[@briansavage932]

The hell was wrong with these people? This is basic shit for a jet pilot, and they were both relatively experienced. Ignoring radio calls? Calling controllers expletives? Not knowing where you are? It boggles the mind how they fucked everything up every step of the way.

[@905Alive]

from NTSB report--- The SIC was enrolled in a 5-day recurrent Learjet training program at CAE Simuflite that began on September 16, 2016. The training plan included 2 days of ground school, 2 days of simulator training, and a checkride. After the SIC’s simulator training session on September 18, 2016, the instructor noted the following: • Struggled with normal procedures • Did not perform takeoff checks correctly or know what to look for during the checks • Did not know how to start the engines • Crashed on first takeoff due to incorrect flight director settings • Unable to control speed and altitude during the stall series • Flew inverted on unusual attitude module • Crashed on landing during an ILS approach During circle-to-land training on September 22 and 26, 2016, the SIC was graded “Not Yet Proficient - Additional Training Required.” ..... awesome

[@jamesroets800]

Its amazing they amassed that many flight hours without killing themselves or others. Karma finally caught up to them.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

That's why the original passengers decided to drive. They said the crew landed sideways on the runway so they weren't getting back on. The plane was returning since the passenger declined the trip back and they ended up seeing it on the news. They would have been dead if they took that return flight. The co pilot told the captain several times to take the controls had he taken them earlier instead of not paying attention they wouldn't have needed to make that turn that bled off all their airspeed. I read the whole cockpit transcript what a disaster. At one point they wanted to go higher in altitude not knowing they were within miles of the airport.

[@southseasflying]

That's not at all true. The NTSB report says that the pilots were returning on a planned reposition leg after dropping pax off in PHL.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

@@southseasflying I read it but it's vague in memory I think part of that someone else said. Either way I don't understand why he didn't take the controls when the guy told him to and was uncomfortable.

[@carrabellicusp]

What do they call this barely passed inadequate pilot ? Captain

[@timrussell1559]

It's very sad that both men lost thier lives. But, how does a lead pilot who consistently demonstrated complete incompetence of his abilities to safely operate an aircraft get approved to fly in the first place? This tragedy could have been much much worse had the plane been full of passengers and the crash site heavily populated. It seems that both gross negligence and pilot incompetence contributed to a catastrophe that was just waiting to happen

[@colingreen1208]

These guys had obviously never heard of a go around

[@fcaughli]

"I'm above that kind of thing"

[@PaulCareyaviation]

Thank God they had no pax & nobody on the ground was killed

[@brianhackert8513]

this accident saved future lives

[@ricepapertea]

Showed up in my feed by accident not realizing this was the crash we saw. There was a Lowe's right there and the people in the parking lot said they saw the plane turn sideways and crash right in the industrial park. I looked out my window and saw black smoke in the industrial park. So sad and scary.

[@Matt-mo8sl]

What a waste of a nice old Lear.

[@randym9147]

Thanks, Man, I love a short, concise video. The ignorance of these two "Pilots" is scary!

[@stevencorscadden5767]

That plane could have crashed into anything. Its incredible that nobody on the ground was hurt.

[@NextToToddliness]

When failing upwards sends you falling downward (real fast). Glad no innocent people were harmed by what was essentially a suicide run. I've seen so many men who weren't at all capable or confident in what they did, but got the job because of charisma and a Y-chromosome.

[@jamestoman3496]

That circle is hard from the right seat since you can’t see the stadium and runway as well. Though what everyone who does it a lot and what towers intention is that you start the circle at TORBY from there it’s just a simple base to final. But new guys to TEB Jack it up daily. I was probably 30 minutes behind these guys into TEB and one of the many that had to divert to HPN.

[@Tinroofdeals]

The fact that two completely incompetent pilots would meet and have this very brief bromance is staggering. Like a Shakespeare story. "My Life At 27,000 Feet"

[@richard1472]

Sounds to me like the PIC was a POS. What a waste of a perfectly fine airplane.

[@timsummers870]

The second in command shouldn’t drive a car, let alone fly a plane. Dude kept on failing his training but strangely was given another chance again and again until he finally crashed a real plane.

[@karaDee2363]

I'm sorry, but the airways are now safer without them in it.. Thank goodness they didn't have any passengers on board

[@347jpb]

Sounds like both of these pilots got their "Participation Trophies" in training. Makes me wonder how many other pilots have received "Participation Trophies."

[@crashburn3292]

Couldn't even maintain airspeed and altitude and he's a captain flying a Learjet? And, it doesn't matter if the co-pilot was flying, (which he wasn't supposed to be) that's on him.

[@kd4pba]

How do folks with this many hours fail basic procedures? This is not just a slip up. These clowns should have never been flying anything.

[@todd5082]

I’ve seen better aircraft management when a pilot had a heart attack and a non-pilot had to be talked to over the radio (emergency) on how to fly and land.

[@copperlocke]

I'm only a few seconds in and already confused, your intro card states this is at PHL in Pennsylvania but then states the problem occurs on approach to Teterboro Airport in northern New Jersey. Teterboro is famously close to NYC, it was in the ATC chatter for the Miracle on the Hudson as an alternate airport the plane could not reach. When I see incident videos, I usually see the title card showing the airport or location where the crash was at, not where the plane took off from (unless it crashed on takeoff).

[@MrPither999]

It's funny that the computerized voice can't distinguish between "November 4" and "November 4th". If you read the full CVR transcript, you'll be amazed these two were anywhere near an airplane.

[@joeshupienis4388]

To make text-to-speech work, you have to spell "funny". In this case a tail number would be typed "November 4 5 2 delta alpha". Notice the spaces between each letter. Otherwise the computer woulwould pronounce "N452DA" as "enn-four-hundred-fifty-two-duh". The correct way to type a tail number would be "November four five two delta alpha". Remember, "The smarter we try to make computers, the dumber they become."

[@VideoNOLA]

Dumb question, but how do pilots remember their call sign? Are the tail numbers printed somewhere inside the cockpit?

[@mowtivatedmechanic1172]

There’s two tags on the “dash” with it and also it kinda sticks to memory if you fly the same plane over and over again.

[@TheFalconJetDriver]

The Captain was in over his head on this flight! He had no position awareness nor situation awareness.

[@TheFalconJetDriver]

Just because you have a Type rating in the airplane does not make you a competent captain.

[@triplanelover]

would have been a different outcome if the captain actually knew what he was doing; once that would have been established, he could coach the right seat but still maintain his awareness and stay ahead of the jet...but it wasn't to be

[@JJAviation]

You cant make such judjment. Its a classic case of violation, like you probably have done a bunch in your car, the only difference is nobody will never have access to it

[@todaylets2583]

Welcome aboard. I want to assure you that the co-pilot and myself have been checked out by your government and we are good to go. Lets get this puppy in the air. Now where are the turn signals again?

[@Patriotgal1]

CUDOS to Trans Pacific, for hiring Diversity Pilots!

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

I’m a student pilot and have a question. Say I made the mistake of continuing on to Rwy 6 until asked by Twr if I’m going to turn. Clearly we’re too close to make that turn (as was the cause of the crash) so in that situation would we go missed for Rwy 6, even though we’re not cleared for that Rwy, or would we level off over Rwy 6 and ask Twr for further instructions. It definitely would be sketchy at that point as the Learjet is at 500 agl and not where it should be. Any decision to act differently from the circle to land at that point would catch Twr off guard, so would the published Missed for Rwy 6 be best, or would something else be better?

[@toddsmith8608]

Jacob, I'd level off and plan on doing the rwy 6 published missed approach while informing tower asap that you're unable to circle to land. See what they want you to do. They might have you enter a right crosswind to rwy 1 or possibly hand you back off to departure to get boxed around again.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

@@toddsmith8608 thank you, much appreciated. It’s amazing in my training how most of the mistakes (especially in instrument apch) are when you’re not entirely sure of yourself and make a rash decision. Every time I do it’s you’re kind of straight and simple thinking that saves me (usually the instructors, lol). I have a habit of overthinking things if I’m not prepared for it. If I’m prepared I can nail it every time, but man thinking clearly after making a mistake is hard.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

@@toddsmith8608 thank you, much appreciated. It’s amazing in my training how most of the mistakes (especially in instrument apch) are when you’re not entirely sure of yourself and make a rash decision. Every time I do it’s you’re kind of straight and simple thinking that saves me (usually the instructors, lol). I have a habit of overthinking things if I’m not prepared for it. If I’m prepared I can nail it every time, but man thinking clearly after making a mistake is hard.

[@toddsmith8608]

@@jacobbaumgardner3406 Well there will be plenty of situations you'll find yourself in that you didn't or couldn't have planned for. Small mistakes are ok if you own them and move on. Admitting a mistake to atc is fine, they are there to help you through it and keep everyone safe, not to police you. Never be afraid to ask for help or clarification. I had a student go the wrong way on a taxi way and I didn't say anything. Tower knew we were a training flight and let us continue until the student realized we were head on with an airliner in the opposite direction. Once he realized his mistake he looked at me to fix it and I said nope, you figure it out. He got on the radio with tower, said "looks like I went the wrong direction" and everything worked out. Some would say I'm a jerk for letting that play out but I think that student learned a valuable lesson. As far as getting frustrated during an instrument approach, you can always stop descending, break off the approach and try again. Many accidents have happened because pilots forced an approach or landing that wasn't set up correctly. Best of luck in your training.

[@toddsmith8608]

@@jacobbaumgardner3406 as for making a rash decision, there's an old saying: "In an emergency, first wind your watch." In other words, slow down and think things through. If the approach isn't going well, abort and try again, or ask for a hold or box vectors while you get things set up properly.

[@dphotos007]

Why were these two pilots hired? They had no business flying a jet plane. Feel sorry for their families.