This Debate Gave Me A Bit Of Hope

[@karatorres2047]

I don’t know if you read KZbin comments, but as a high school language arts teacher: THANK YOU for having this debate. Taxpayers, not just parents, fund education- and we all have differing opinions. We can’t just teach the majority opinion, we have to teach facts. I teach in a semi-rural, semi-suburban conservative district and there have been plenty of parents pushing back on us teaching To Kill a Mockingbird/discussing Jim Crow, reading They Called Us Enemy/discussing Japanese internment, or discussing the following concepts as context for our American Literature course: Native American genocide, slavery, exoticism, white savior narratives, romanticism of historical figures, feminism, Native American boarding schools, Chinese exclusion, the achievability of the American Dream in our quasi capitalist society, redlining, dual consciousness, and more. Should I just lie, or not cover these topics because some parents don’t like them? I am a professional with a masters degree, so why do the parents get to dictate what I teach even if it doesn’t align with facts?

[@karatorres2047]

Also adding on now that I’m an hour in- he believes most teachers are leftist? I actually chuckled aloud.

[@soulman4292]

It’s unfortunate that you as a public servant have to be on the front lines of the war being waged against creating empathetic knowledgeable citizens. The point of public education should always be to create a better society, and therefor a better future. Let’s be honest though, the point of this entire conservative movement is indoctrination, because the uneducated tend to vote on their emotions, and the entirety of the conservative strategy is to weaponize fear, and ignorance. People who understand how to approach a subject critically very rarely will vote, or live their lives in general to hurt others, or climb upon their neighbors backs to get over whatever obstacles they may face. Keep fighting the good fight, and know there are plenty of us parents out here who will be doing our part to make sure that you can actually do the work that you spent so much time being able to do.

[@SixxThirtyFive]

Because they dropped out of junior high school to have kids at 14, so they should know a thing or twenty about education. Not you with your little Masters. Lol!

[@alex_blue5802]

This right here really puts it in perspective. I would love to see actual teachers like you featured on the news as pushback to these bans.

[@alex_blue5802]

This right here really puts it in perspective. I would love to see actual teachers like you featured on the news as pushback to these bans.

[@bethkeenan8800]

This guy conceded an entire argument? On a public platform? During the conversation? Takes guts man.

[@pattyofurniture]

That's the problem, it shouldn't take guts to acknowledge reality.

[@dimasakbar7668]

I really respect this guy. He really engage in a discussion on good faith, and willing to engage different ideas. I would give him standing ovation, even though i was a debater on high school and college.

[@EmmaHopman]

I'm so proud

[@breakingbasha]

God it feels so weird to have a Conservative on who actually understands analogies or at least doesnt pretend not to. Such a breath of fresh air

[@OneEyeShadow]

Best Conservative all year

[@FixtaFernback]

He is definitely one of the most honest conservatives he's ever had on. It took a little pushing, but he was actually talked into realizing how faulty his logic was and admitted it. That's incredibly rare. He's probably an honest person that's just been fed so much propaganda that he never thought to question it.

[@cogadhturtar8408]

I agree, I hate that chat kept getting kind of shitty towards him. Calling him an idiot and a dumbass etc… like yeah some of the things he said were stupid, but he came in good faith trying to discuss things and learn from it. Idiots don’t try to learn they just persist in their beliefs and behaviors.

[@emilne83]

I don't think deep down this guy is actually a conservative at all, even if he identifies as one. He thinks like a lefty who has been stuck in a conservative media bubble being influenced by their lies for too long.

[@TheNeoLoneWolf]

Cool Charizard pic

[@dylanb265]

Too many conservatives frame “political” as “things that are disagreeable to me personally”

[@daraghokane4236]

They ruined that word for everyone that's common vernacular now. Political = bad gay people don't think being gay is political because there pro it

[@purplepotatoes9255]

Then they vote on those things they personally feel are wrong and make them political. Gas stoves were a personal preference for a while now. Now we see conservative politicians talking about how gas stoves are our god given right, and conservative voters taking a side for gas stoves. If, in the future, we begin to see subsidies for gas in gas stoves to make gas stoves cheaper in the long run, and tariffs on imports of electric stoves from other nations, it becomes a political issue.

[@carimavandijk1091]

I'm gonna be very honest when saying, a lot of fucking shit is political. Almost all stuff is political.

[@dinosaysrawr]

The two races: White and Political. The two genders: Male and Political. The two sexual orientations: Straight and Political. The two nationalities: American and Political.

[@meltedWax169]

@@dinosaysrawr based take but honestly seems to be how alot of people viee things

[@phibie8853]

In kindergarten, I was told not to he racist by my teacher quite explicitly. I literally remember it to this day, and it has been informative to my growth as an individual, and that is to say that teachers telling kids "hey dont be a dipshit for someone's immutable characteristics" is actually.... good. Cause childhood is your formative years, and you should be trying to inform kids of how to be good people.

[@Spongebrain97]

Yeah same here. In Kindergarten was the first time I ever heard of MLK and that racism was even a thing which I hadn't considered before. Then in first or 2nd grade I watched an educational animated film called Our Friend Martin that went deeper for kids to understand and those teachings always stuck with me in a positive way. Also in 4th grade was when I was introduced to sorta sex ed but the topic was more so on kids being alert to inappropriate behavior amongst adults and to tell their teachers if they see anything bad

[@phibie8853]

@@Spongebrain97 I think that's exactly as sex ed should be for kids- and it's only as they get older that other pertinent details have to be included into their sex ed.

[@Cancellator5000]

Yeah, the problem with just making a blanket statement about respecting other people is that with racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. there is an element of dehumanization. So, in that situation they might get the message that doing that one thing to a black person is bad and just move from being overtly racist to doing things that are less obvious that are still traumatizing. It's important to instill that everyone is human early on otherwise that default bigotry taught by parents becomes ingrained and harder to change.

[@wynoglia]

A lot of times we say "racism is learned" But what's often left out from being said IS "anti-racism" is learned Just like sharing. Turns out values, both good AND bad, have to be taught Humans are only biologically social. What being social means is dictated by 100% nurture, not nature It's our loss if we think good values are encoded in the DNA somehow

[@TheMahayanist]

@@wynoglia exactly. That was Aristotle's belief. People need to be taught virtue.

[@ingni123456]

This isn't a conservative; this is a person who thinks they're conservative and really just hasn't made up their own mind about anything. You calmly and clearly explain, they say "that makes sense", and then they change their minds.

[@criticalthinker3262]

That _should_ be how it works for everybody, unfortunately most conservatives don't actually even believe any of the arguments they're making in the first place.

[@JWelsh07]

It's a fairly ignorant person who hasn't explored most issues but who mainly listens to conservative media. We are watching him learn about these issues in real time and have his mind swayed. This is why conservatives hate higher education. When you actually learn the facts about many issues you suddenly realize how much better the left-leaning side is.

[@garfieldGG]

A liberal who thinks he’s a conservative lol

[@lazerhosen]

@@JWelsh07 "eckspecially" is a clear indicator of ignorance whenever I hear it. Same with "ecksetra"

[@SaturnineXTS]

funny, on left wing reddit I've been called a conservative who thinks he's a centrist, even though I'm actually left leaning hahah vaush's youtube comment section is much, much better place than reddit. reddit is full of pricks

[@afridge8608]

This guy is an example of how media consumption changes you. He is perfectly ok in his head. He seems probably ok on a personal level. The problem is that his brain has been filled with conservative brainrot

[@eriksvensson6054]

Or maybe he thinks different things to you

[@daraghokane4236]

@@eriksvensson6054 he doesn't have a learning disability. That sounds like something the teacher would say to teach the class not to bully kid with down syndrome,

[@tomaszwida]

definitely the case, like freedom of speech, literally there are countless examples where right wing pushes for policies that goes against the idea of 1st ( i just with Vaush brought the Anti BDS laws that are literally on the books now in the red states!), but somehow he got convinced that the left is pushing for it??

[@raak4070]

@@eriksvensson6054 yeah Stalin thinks different from me, I guess we should be nice and never critisize him

[@kaydenl6836]

@@eriksvensson6054 he thinks different things due to his brain being filled with misinformation

[@owensthethird]

"If that's the lifestyle that you want to live" is such a telling position for a conservative to take. It shows that deep down they believe that anything but the norm is a choice, and not a character trait or identity.

[@funhousemirror8870]

For many people sexuality and gender is a choice. It is the incorrect form to speak about sexuality like this. It's honestly extremely weird to me that leftists who posture as if they read queer theory posit the right to orientate as a linear, fixed and rigid phenomena. It is extremely hetero-normative to imply that orientation is another word for essentialism. If it's not a choice then it's ultimately an injunction and therefore can be corrupted by the state and therefore becomes intrinsically political. This is why being "hetero" is now strangely a political position. The losing theoretic is the "born this way" mode because it gives heteros and their statist guards a formal right to their violently imposed normativity. which is a pseudo fact that must be dislodged from the unconscious of the status quo. in order to unclog this subject from politics, and allow real progress to be made, both sides must forsake their Truth. Otherwise it will always remain a dialectical impasse

[@hand13932]

@@funhousemirror8870 lmao what the fuck is this

[@DoctorWhoBlue]

@@funhousemirror8870 It's not a choice, but it's also fluid. I don't think that's any more contradictory than saying that someone's personality is produced by thier environment and experiences but can change over time. By the same token, people develop basic traits of personality that sick with them as they develop - it's much the same for sexuality and gender.

[@jambott5520]

@@funhousemirror8870 You cant choose to suddenly like something that you dont like, and vice versa. Its also not essentialist to say that peoples tastes arent a choice, you can not choose something and have it change.

[@funhousemirror8870]

@@hand13932 pretty basic terminology, argumentation and logic. nothing profound or even really out there, especially if you read philosophy. if you can't refute what I said then probably don't get your didactics from memes

[@mobmaniac]

Teachers being fired for teaching things that are FACTUALLY true because the people in the town disagree with it is completely insane

[@dinosaysrawr]

Hell, I had teachers who espoused some sussy and factually-untrue stuff, and they didn't get fired for that--because they were sneaky, or because nothing they said ran afoul of the administration or parents. But, yes, fascists and fundamentalists are the epitome of "my feelings don't care about the facts."

[@akira1086]

Amazing video, the dude has some bad ideas but holy shit, he backed off them when he got enough pushback to realize they were goofy... SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT THEIR ARGUMENT AND CARES ABOUT BEING WRONG, amazing, truly incredible, a unicorn of the Right-wing of our time

[@TheKiroshi]

Vaush had been complaining about it being hard/impossible to find a Conservative who will argue, because they're so deep into denying reality that no arguement works if they deny even argueing. But this guy is actually being there as a real human, you can literally hear him pick out points and go "well that's true but it aught to be..." wrong or not, that's a measurable response he's working from. I don't think anyone expected this guy. Good surprise.

[@goldegreen]

@@TheKiroshi A conservative that is willing to self-reflect is often not a conservative for very long

[@phibie8853]

I think this is what vaush means-- debates are only fun when the person actually gives a shit about their beliefs and truth, and a lot of the debates where the person just screetches 5 talking points and joker laughs for 2 hours are boring. Like I dont even need the opposition to concede, they just gotta care

[@TheKiroshi]

@Coral -- going to have to fire back on this, not quite There certainly are normal everyday "conservatives" who take on some opinions and do it with a real admission of problems. But Conservative "voters" are a whole different story.. a lot of what we'd call normal conservatives are not politically motivated and take a whole bunch of ideas from politics they experience but don't think about, so when questioned, they're usually very responsive and stick onto the problem. but a *lot* of [Republican] voters, not just conservatives, are held up on political goals and team-mentality, they may not argue in harsh or scummy ways, but they will outright deny issues or take on the political agenda of their side "Trump made jobs!" Or "we don't know the long term effects on the vaccine" are *nice* versions and not ultimately that common as others. But of course, debates do bring out the worst people, so that's true there for Vaush and our perspective online

[@auroraborealissings2084]

@@imcoral Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this one too. If you find a conservative who will call themselves conservative and actively say something about not supporting Trump, then this may be the normal that you run into. But at this point, most conservatives were Trump supporters and still may well be. After all, despite Trump's record low approval rating, the Republicans usually held at about 90% approval rating of him. Those kinds of people are not people willing to back off their positions. I've spoken with conservatives in my life who genuinely have just off the wall beliefs. I've been told a number of times by certain conservatives that after 9/11, we should've turned Saudi Arabia to glass. The meaning being, we should've nuked the entire country to oblivion. A majority of conservatives are not able to reasoned with. Many of them cannot follow genuine lines of logic and that's because being a conservative now literally requires cognitive dissonance

[@jamesg.1144]

A missing piece of his argument is the counterpoint - if some parents find "teaching gayness" to be objectionable because they pay taxes and don't agree, what about the people who also pay taxes and DO want it to be taught?

[@samiamrg7]

The construction of “the taxpayer” as some priviledged class has been used for a long time to dogwhistle bigotry. It used to be (and still is to an extent) that “taxpayer” was code for “white people” once it became unacceptable to just say that “white people should have a say” over others.

[@samiamrg7]

What about the people who are gay and pay taxes and don’t want to have themselves not represented in this public service? It doesn’t make sense on it’s face, and that is because it is not literally referring to tax payers, it is referring to a privileged class who believe their voice should count for more than others, and I am 99% sure that the guy in this video doesn’t consciously understand that, he is just repeating what he has heard.

[@julesdalli9716]

I have been wondering this myself, recently. Conservative parents forget that there are families with more liberal leaning values. That there are parents, who want their kids to get an education which differs from that of conservative parents. I guess this is merely a symptom of the conservative virus - that in any facet of politics, only conservative values matter.

[@BeSk9991]

Well he could argue "well, majority of the state wants it banned, so it should be banned". It's bad to try to rationalize this with "popularity", especially because often in USA your elections end up 51 - 49. So it's better to use the argument of logic and american values - you should teach kids it's okay to be black, gay, trans etc., because it is fine...

[@jamesg.1144]

@@BeSk9991 I get that but sometimes the first step is to get them to actually acknowledge that other people think differently from them in the same lens tbag they're viewing the problem

[@GameAddictionTV]

I cannot believe vowz denounced every leftist talking point he's ever had and STARTED GOOSETEPPING ON STREAM

[@ajemma78]

Ya hate to see it...

[@holdommi7505]

i gotta say i was shocked

[@daved2352]

I haven't watched the video yet but I have been on twitter once so I believe this whole heartedly or at least will pretend so that people who don't like vowsh will like me.

[@AlexGardipe]

*shakes fist* GOOSETEPPS!!!!!

[@ScrotoTBaggins]

Not surprised. I've never actually watched any Voosh vidyas but I heard he is into Horse and defend PewDiePhiles

[@forgottenredemption4970]

My problem with whole debate in the us is this. Someone's identity is not political. Someone being gay or trans. Is not inherently political. That is just who they are. It is just as political for me to say I have a girlfriend or that im straight. No one's saying that's political to mention you have a significant other of whatever gender. Yet we do with gay and trans. That is not political. We make it political because of bias's people have against them.

[@afridge8608]

Nothing is inherently political but also everything is political to a degree. If you want it to not be political then you must fight and win the politics. Saying that the problem with the gender debate is that it is political is like having a ship sink and saying "my problem with this ship is that it has holes in it". Yes. We know. We fix the holes to make it stop being political

[@binho6600]

Yeah, it's not Inheritly, but as long as opposing them is something a specific political group does, like the Cons with Trans and Gay people, then being in favour, speaking of, and in general talking about them, is Political, because it's against a different political position

[@thenerdyanarchist3492]

Is has become a political issue. Do you understand how politics works

[@BleedForTheWorld]

Conservatives in power make it political for power. Exact same thing happened with the countless debates around the right to an abortion. It's all for power. Liberals in government also use these issues for power but in a different way.

[@sypherthe297th2]

Isn't it? There was a time where being Jewish was very political. Human beings excel at being douchebags. Churches and trailer parks. . . Scratch that because saying trailer parks was redundant. Anyway, churches are breeding grounds for hate and these things vote.

[@MaxHimbigger]

Perhaps the real debate was the friends we made along the way

[@erikeliasson4739]

thanks for the chuckle my man

[@wgo523]

Nah the real friends we made was the debate

[@keel0611]

so true

[@josiahgottschalk2312]

Lmao

[@austinman1712]

Anime ending

[@michaelwerkov3438]

This dude is too nice to be doing apologetics for fascist reactionaries

[@ziontea7045]

Tbh most people brainwashed into that don't have a reason to be unreasonably angry at any opposing thought. Or in this case, just correct information

[@Preciouspink]

Evil,is never nice in the long run. God speed nice people to the apologisties.

[@Sqwivig]

Yeah that's why at this point I consider the entire Republican party a death cult. They use actual brainwashing techniques on people. Good people and misguided people. Like yeah a lot of them are genuinely hateful and evil, but a good chunk of them are just brainwashed and it makes my blood fucking boil. Imagine how much less power the Republicans would have if they weren't allowed to dominate media and the internet so much.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

Ten minutes in you can tell he's having difficulty with this because of the terms he brings up like "ideology" when it comes to trans people. This stuff is hard to get and can certainly be if you grew up conservative (which is, in case anyone forgot, a huge fking portion of the US). Anyone who disagrees with me comes from a life of privilege.

[@connorpeppermint8635]

I live in the Midwest. The vast majority of politically conscious adults sound like this guy. Fascism is a boogeyman and all that matters is that we compromise no matter what

[@Rimpala]

"Around controversal issues is where indoctrination can be applied" ...why is the concept that queer people are people and should be treated as people such a controversal issue? Why has the right made this a controversal issue?

[@kastanie7445]

While people are mad at queer or trans people (or muslims, or jews, or hispanic, or blacks, or ...), they're distracted from getting mad at constantly being fucked over by the insanely rich oligarchs that rule America

[@raspberrybitch4299]

Because it is paramount, in their worldview, that "purity" is maintained, and rigid gender norms are upheld. Trans people are the antithesis to rigid gender norms.

[@AggressiveLemur]

Because if it's not controversial they can't do the genocide

[@dataexpunged93N15]

Uhhhh uhh uh because bible said so (ignore the fact that it's not proven if it's even true because the original texts are hard to translate)

[@TheJake0fTrades]

If a teacher tells their students that they should share, make friends and be responsible, is that the teacher "imposing their values"?

[@drewmarteny1495]

To an extent yes

[@jenjaminbenkins6075]

Absolutely. I think we should impose good values.

[@pedro-pascals-armpit]

yes. only letting toddlers interact with each other Lord Of The Flies style is acceptable. everything else is indoctrination, obviously. /s

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

Yes and it's good

[@rompevuevitos222]

"We mean impossing values we do not follow!" -A rep any time in the near future, talking the quiet part out loud

[@Wastok]

I almost feel bad watching how hard these people struggle to rationalize their back-asswards ideologies to anyone outside the echo chamber but aspire to treat them with greater patience and empathy. Thanks Vaush.

[@Boorne2Kill]

Which ideologies!?

[@Seses209]

Oh TELL me about it. When this guy says something like"Well teaching people about gay stuff would be horrible" and Vaush asks "Why".... and then there is a 15 second silence....

[@UrFavBrunette_dancer]

You said nothing. What you just said was literally nothing. I’m genuinely surprised by how much of nothing can be put into one paragraph.

[@ppeans]

@@UrFavBrunette_dancer I feel the same about your comment

[@pioneershark2230]

@@UrFavBrunette_dancer truly a skill issue

[@shawnhenderson2091]

It is refreshing to hear a dude actually digest the arguments rather than dismiss them out of hand by pretending there is no conflict in stated principles or consequences to their ideological goals

[@simplicitylost]

It is quite unusual for someone to so readily accept evidence in real time and change their opinion. Love to see it though.

[@austinman1712]

Its incredible that any conservative who is trying to be good faith like this guy can just have his whole ideology shook by comments like, “what if this was for black people” and “delta variant lowered the effective % rate.”

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

It really feels like a confidence thing. Conservative media tells people "lefties are just idiots who don't know what they are talking about, we are the experts" and they go with that uncritically despite having 0 evidence given or doing their own research. This isn't even shade directed at them in particular. It's just the way conservative media really seems to take advantage of and weaponize their base. If they tell them all of the arguments are stupid, don't bother looking into them, then it makes people compliant and unwilling to hear out any arguments. It's effective and, honestly, terrifying.

[@mindhackz]

That’s because conservative thinking is antithetical to critical thinking

[@southend26]

To me this guy seems decent if he could change his mind. Shows fundamental honesty. Nice job, Vaush.

[@scipioafricanus5871]

This guy is like freaking Crowder. Change my mind.

[@themachine5647]

This guy sounds like the large percentage of regular conservatives in the US, and this was revealed at the point that he admitted he had made any mental comparisons to the modern equality debate with the civil rights movement. It's a kind of blissful ignorance where they simply "do not like new thing" without AT ALL peeling back aby layers or making the effort to learn more and grow, it's a complete revulsion of the controversy at all, they simply don't care and don't want to care, but actually could be made to care if engaged and pinned down in a respectful manner. This is hard right now because we are all so ready to fight against the absolute bonkers fascists and openly horrific monsters who share these positions. And it's really hard to tell who is who until we'll engaged.

[@accountid9681]

@@scipioafricanus5871 except he's actually willing to change his mind

[@trustyvault13canteen32]

@@scipioafricanus5871 Crowder gets paid to be wrong, he isnt

[@warlordofbritannia]

@@themachine5647My mother is in this same boat, or was. We gotta speak to these moderate conservatives before they get sucked into the fascism, show them an honest portrayal of our side in place of Fox News or whatever. It seriously pays dividends.

[@devinnie7572]

"Maybe we shouldn't charge them with felonies but we should definitely fire them" Someone needs to ask this guy how he feels about cancel culture, his response would probably be quite entertaining considering the above.

[@freeverse4304]

This guy was nice enough, he just has conservative brain worms. Perfect example of this: "Do you think 5 year olds can be gay or trans?" Vaush: "Absolutely". Dude: "Are you sure?" Vaush: "yes, here are examples of that". Dude: "Oh, I guess you're right." Like, they literally have NEVER thought of, or read about, or watched even the most basic real world examples of what actually happens outside of conservative news bubbles. He has never heard a gay man say "I knew I was gay when I was 8" even though he asked that question in a debate to help his own point. Not because he was sure that he was right that kids can't be gay before puberty, but because he has literally never bothered to think about it.

[@TheMahayanist]

They either don't know or understand the real world consequences of their beliefs, or don't care about the real world consequences of their beliefs. Dunno what's worse.

[@samiamrg7]

There’s also the moment where he said he never thought to apply this situation go desegregation. Like, what? Did he seriously spend that little time thinking of this?

[@cursedGalataea]

@@samiamrg7 Probably? Conservatives aren't know for encouraging critical thinking iirc. I knew I liked girls since I was five. Between kindergarten and 9th grade I fell in love with Kaitlyn, Sarah, Kassandra, Louise, Ruby, three female teachers and had a crush on the vice principal. PHUCK I can't believe how much better my life would be if my kindergarten teacher had told me "It's okay for girls to marry each other" instead of only my parents saying "God burns homosexuals in hell" and then thinking I'd have to spend the rest of my life alone because I knew I never wanted to marry a boy and have babies. I'm 30 and I'm still alone, I don't think those scars are ever going away. I went to see The Book of Mormon a couple years ago with a friend. I had to leave the theatre when the closeted character began singing.

[@djixi98]

I don't think he would even question me saying I knew I was straight when I was 5 or so years old. Had a girl in my kindergarden class who wore white fishnets and I could not look away lol

[@jonasstuke528]

@@cursedGalataea that comment hit me right in the feels, I hope you're in a better place now and your future will be bright ^^

[@davidbrobinson1995]

"Kids shouldn't be taught controversial things" I was in school and 9/11 was addressed the next day with an assembly. (I think a few days later) No harm is done.

[@samiamrg7]

Banning “discussion of LGBTQ issues” in books also makes me think of that one Max and Ruby book where Max, basically a toddler, puts on some of his mom’s makeup, jewelry and a dress and it is silly. It is technically drag if you go by loose definition, but by the letter of the law, that book could get a teacher put in prison.

[@Labyrinthfox]

I literally felt gender dysphoria at 6 years old. I was attracted to boys and girls when I was in 5th grade. The only problem is I didn’t have language around those feelings. I couldn’t articulate my gender dysphoria because it’s like conceptualizing a puffalope (do you know what that is? Can you picture it? Whatever you think it is you’re wrong) But if it had been able to talk to someone about those feelings and given language around it years of pain would have disappeared. But sure, let’s trust my mother who advocated at my state’s Supreme Court for torturing gay kids to make them straight to teach me. Thank god she didn’t know and I had the good sense to not tell her about me kissing the neighbor boy (same age as me) or where I stashed my girls cloths in my room. I prob wouldn’t be here to type this comment.

[@TheMahayanist]

Yikes. I definitely know what you mean, I was attracted to guys in middle school, but suppressed it for years because of my religious ideology, but beyond that, there was really nothing in my environment anywhere that said "this was normal, this was okay" except my parents. Nothing else even hinted at the possibility that having sexual attraction or a romantic relationship with another guy was kosher or something that even happened in my environment. If there had been some kind of normalization for me, I might not have been so alienated from myself for so long. That's why these kinds of conversations matter.

[@simplicitylost]

@@TheMahayanist 🤔 Interesting. So, you’d say your parents were relatively supportive then? And yet you still had massive internal dissidence, yeah? Just curious because I feel like I had a similar experience. Curious to know more specifics in your case. Context: I was born in ’86 and grew up in the 90s. My parents were very liberal (but still religious to some extent; we started going to church weekly when I was six). My mom is like one of those “loves the theater” kind of persons. And my dad is an art teacher. Just trying to paint a picture. When I was six was when I first got told how gay people have sex (but it was because I asked). Also, I was into acting as a kid- and I loved playing dress up. I especially liked dressing up as female characters (sometimes old hag women funnily enough), and at one point I really wanted a dress. When I was 5, my mom actually bought me a costume dress to play in. Others thought she was crazy. Anyway, both my parents have always been “we’ll accept you no matter what.” I mean, at one point when I was six or seven and saying things like “I wish I were a girl,” they were saying things like “well, if when you’re 18 and you still feel that way, there’s an operation that can change you.” Now, I don’t identify as trans; I’m just a gay man (although I have had some people tell me I just repressed some of it), but the weird thing is that despite always being told I would be accepted, my mom was very much of the attitude “well, if you’ve never been with a woman, how do you know?” Even to this day-almost 19 years after my mom knew about my first male relationship and about 12 years after “officially” coming out-I _still_ get the feeling that she’d prefer it not be her son. Anyway, I’ve rambled for far too long. Just curious if you had a similar experience.

[@TheMahayanist]

@@simplicitylost Yeah, my parents don't care. I'd think maybe my extended family does slightly but are tolerant enough. But I really think it's just internalized oppression. No matter how accepted we are or not, it's still considered "proper" to be heterosexual, Christian (at least culturally) and white, and improper to not be. That idea that being not those things is improper socially caused us and other people to basically cause internalized oppression of homosexuals indirectly.

[@TheSquareOnes]

Yeah, I was definitely "already bi" in kindergarten and probably had more, uh... curious encounters with other boys than girls at those young ages. Anyone who thinks sexuality isn't an inherent trait that is pretty much immediately a part of who you are is just objectively wrong. Can't speak to the dysphoria aspect but it seems like the same is true for gender based on people saying it is, not that hard to just accept people's experiences at face value when that's all we have.

[@TheMahayanist]

@@TheSquareOnes yeah I don't think anything is inherent, I'd say it's a learned behavior but that doesn't mean it's arbitrary. I learned that I like warm climates, and soup and lemon ice cream. I can't just turn the off switch and not like those things. English is not an inherent trait either, but I can't just turn it off. So I don't agree with the false dichotomy that it's either a choice or innate, it's a learned behavior, I would say like virtually everything, but learned behaviors aren't malleable. Like we learned gravity and object permanence, you can't just snap your fingers and "reset" object permanence by choice. It's not one or the other.

[@eelvis1674]

To be clear. It is FAR better to live in a system where people often have to wait to see a specialist, than to live in a system where people often cannot afford to see a specialist. At least the former is vaguely democratic, and doesn't just filter who lives and who dies by how much money they have.

[@hagoryopi2101]

You just die waiting in line without any other choice instead.

[@eelvis1674]

@@hagoryopi2101 You just die unable to afford the care without any other choice. You should watch your compium intake. Wouldn't want to not be able to afford care if you become addicted.

[@eelvis1674]

@@hagoryopi2101 on a more serious note. If you think people are dying left and Right under decomodified healthcare due to "wait times" you are deluded. People do however die left and Right due to lack of funds in a private system.

[@hagoryopi2101]

@@eelvis1674 when you only have to buy healthcare once (rather than twice after paying Canada taxes only for them to direct you to MAID, or paying Britain taxes only to end up on a two year wait list for cancer screening when you may have only months to live), and when healthcare is actually private so providers can actually offer competitive pricing (as opposed to the highly corporatized American market where regulations protect providers from market forces), providers have to compete for your service by keeping a good balance of cost and quality. That helps keep things affordable. And even if you can't afford it yourself for some reason, there are loans. There's crowdfunding. There's spending your healthier years saving so you have money when you're older and may need more healthcare. There are plentiful options (as opposed to being taxed out your ears for "healthcare" which doesn't actually care). You can argue these are damaging to one's dignity, but I'd rather beg on the internet or the street than have doctors tell me to delete myself in Minecraft because I'm nothing more than a tax and vote cow who's too expensive for them to save anymore, rather than a human being capable of demonstrating my own value in the world.

[@eelvis1674]

@@hagoryopi2101 bro you can throw out as much private healthcare apologia as you like, write an essay 10,000 words long describing in detail every way in which a market and competition makes healthcare better. THE UNITED STATES HAS THE WORST HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD. You simply cannot get around the data. In specific reply to your comment though, healthcare in the US is more expensive than it is in Britain or Canada. So I won't hear shit about how you pay for it though taxes. And wait times are a manufactured problem. Literally all it requires to fix is more money. Which we have infinite of.

[@Jessymandias]

Kids bully kids for being gay on the playground. Yes, in 2nd grade. (substitute teacher here) These laws would make it potentially a criminal offense for me to intervene. and. that's. the. point.

[@daraghokane4236]

When I was 10 I said that's gay for things I don't like didn't know what gay people are. Republicans might actually be pro queer kids getting bullied

[@forloveofthepage2361]

This is a great example of showing a centrist how centrism is dangerous. You can’t give equal air to fact and fiction when teaching facts. Cheers to the debater for keeping an open mind while arguing your point. I can tell your listening instead of waiting to talk.

[@thefonz8373]

I wouldn't necessarily say this is a danger of being a centrist.. Honestly, if anything this is a glowing recommendation to being a centrist. Dude was confronted by facts and he was willing to listen, which is why most people take up centrist positions to begin with. Someone who can listen to both sides and being able to agree on good points and being able to refute bad points is the ideal we should strive for. This sorta covering your ears and not even bothering to listen to what the other side says leads to extremism and people readily are willing to accept extremism(Remember this applies to both the Right and Left in America). There are varying degrees when it comes to this stuff. This dude clearly thought there was something appalling about the idea of kids being taught Gender non-conforming stuff and I don't see the problem. I have never found an issue with this. This coming from someone who has consumed a lot of Right wing media btw. People are different and how much they buy into something varies. But the fact that he was willing to listen and understand is something we need more of. So yeah, Centrist gang rise up 😂

[@forloveofthepage2361]

@@thefonz8373 he is the exception, not the rule. Centrists are fence sitters that only care about what directly effects them, otherwise it can all burn down so long as they don't have to change anything. You don't have to be an extremist to pick a fight you believe in. Centrists avoid fighting for anything, they just kick the can down the road.

[@SlightlyJason]

@@thefonz8373centrists are idiots tbh

[@unduloid]

According to the "Don't Say Gay" Bill _every_ allusion to sexuality in any way is forbidden. This means that it ids already illegal for a teacher to say they're married or have a boy/girlfriend, no matter of the genders involved. So a male teacher talking about his "wife" should already be indicted. I think this is the way this should be approached: have parents complain as soon as any of this happens. Let's see how this will go then.

[@willowwright4638]

C'mon dog, you know they won't enforce it with straight people.

[@thefatherinthecave943]

This guy just knows the dogwhistles and hasn’t put _any_ effort into thinking them through, until you, vaush, simply asked him to explain these beliefs. For anyone that isn’t fully committed to the ideology this is the best way to peel them away from it. The Socratic method always works

[@caseyconnell9336]

It never ceases to amaze me how much conservatives will shout that they care about the constitution and our rights, yet can never understand or support the values and freedom that those constitutional rights maintain

[@Griffolion0]

"I'm pro-gay, if that's the lifestyle you want to live then go for it." Massive fucking red flag.

[@tonechild5929]

Ok I think I might understand why it's a red flag, but I'm not 100% - Can you explain how that is a red flag? Does it seem like a dog whistle or does it seem dismissive of LGBTQ+ rights?

[@redyeti34]

@@tonechild5929 it implies the whole "being gay is a choice" argument, and that argument is always braindead. Thats what i got out of it at least, i don't know if there was more.

[@Johnaii_Steck]

@@tonechild5929 It makes it out to be a conscious and active choice, similarly to how people say "I'm pro-vegan, if that's the lifestyle you want to live". Alternatively it can be read as "You can be openly gay but it would be preferable for you to be quiet about it" which is less common from my experience.

[@wado_ichimonji2311]

@@redyeti34 how tf does that imply anything of the sort?? How can someone be more excepting then literally saying "live the lifestyle you want?"

[@wolfman-zd1ed]

@@wado_ichimonji2311 The implied idea that it's chosen. No it isn't "the lifestyle I WANT to live" This is life. This is Me. There is no getting around it. Stop pretending like tolerating my existence is a badge of honor.

[@renardleblanc5556]

Imagine, in the hypothetical, someone arguing that soldiers should *start* boot camp basic training on their first day in the battlefield, and not before. That would be *ridiculous.* So, when he argues that kids shouldn't have *any* sex-ed before puberty, he's basically arguing exactly that. That kids shouldn't be prepared for adulthood until they've already become adults.

[@bobasaurusrexy]

I still remember my mom telling me in 2nd grade that if anyone touched me and I felt uncomfortable, I need to tell her immediately. It was an easy and sweet conversation. Definitely not too early.

[@bobasaurusrexy]

Also, he doesn’t know how school boards work. He shouldn’t be talking about it. Sounds dumb.

[@rompevuevitos222]

The job of a parent is to prepare their kids for the world, telling them about very real dangers sounds critical tbh The way your mom did it sounds perfect, you don't have to bring sex into the picture but you still get the message across

[@patrickstreetet3085]

This is like a conservative that actually is learning from the arguments and gaining something, I feel like you might actually be able to turn him to some left wing ideology, without insulting his right wing ideology, gosh, this is why I keep watching you, you have an ability to communicate with these people and get them to understand why they are voting against their own self-interest. Own self-interest it's insane that politicians can't do the same.

[@grwood15]

What politicians are you a fan of? Or voted for?

[@patrickstreetet3085]

Sadly I voted Democrats all the way down, but they are the only ones that are putting forward good policy. So it's hard for me to even look at independence or republicans cuz most of the time they don't even put policy forward. But if you really have a complaint that I don't know who I'm voting for then you probably talking to the wrong person.

[@BeSk9991]

Well, I don't know. I am doing a similar thing, trying to turn conservatives in my country into libertarians. I am a right wing libertarian (so pro capitalism, sorry) but I think it's better to at least convince conservatives to be progressive / liberal (conservatism is fine, but they have to be "liberal" as well - in the meaning "ok I am conservative, I don't like gays, but I will not limit their freedom to adopt kids and get married".) But it's really hard to turn them even from conservatism to progressive / libertarian. So I doubt you could move them to leftwing. There are also a lot less arguments for being left wing in economic policies, whereas from my viewpoint being progressive in social policies is something logical and unavoidable, if you are consistent (I dont want anyone to limit my freedoms, so I won't push for laws limiting anyone's freedoms). But I like to watch Vaush for exactly these reasons - 90 % of the time he is making arguments for progressive issues, from which I learn and get arguments for my debates with conservatives. Nothing will ever move me to left wing (well, to socialism, because I support things that make economic sense, so for example taxing negative externalities, antimonopoly policies etc.), but I would rather live in leftwing progressive world, than conservative capitalism. Even though I am cis white guy lol, because I really hate limiting people's freedoms.

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@patrickstreetet3085 There's no shame in choosing the side that makes the better choices, that's literally what democracies are about If tomorrow roles where reversed (as it once happened between reps and dems) and dems started doing the human right violations, it would not only be a good idea to change sides, but the intended way of handling the situation

[@patrickstreetet3085]

@@rompevuevitos222 I wish we could just vote policy, like cover the faces and parties and just show policies.

[@deepakjetly1717]

Tbh its like this guy had all his arguments based on vibes than any actual concrete facts or even ideology. So this debate was more like stuffing this guy's brain with absent knowledge and info than a real mind changing debate.

[@artsyjoe94]

Most people become conservative because of vibes tbf

[@kalks4334]

Todays vibe is radical anarcho-horseism

[@tonechild5929]

@@artsyjoe94 Indeed.

[@Derpalon]

@@artsyjoe94 Turns out the "facts over feelings" crowd is all feelings. What a tweest.

[@wfb.subtraktor311]

@@artsyjoe94 Most people become conservative either because their parents were or because society has left them behind in our collective understanding of reality. That is why it is much more important to have a progressive mindset rather than progressive positions.

[@thinkbeyond3457]

Current Republicans' political strategy: "if we think it's icky, ban it!" 🙄

[@eriksvensson6054]

Based

[@ratewcropolix]

@@eriksvensson6054 hey youre the guy in the other reply section who got destroyed by like 10 different people lol

[@dataexpunged93N15]

Republicans banned pooping now millions are in the hospital for colon surgery 😞🤕 (tbh I'm a little shocked some haven't tried to ban public restrooms all together during this trans restroom debate, it just seems cartoonishly evil enough for them to try)

[@Shittyrapper]

@@eriksvensson6054I’ve doubt you’ve actually read Nietzsche. If you did, you didn’t understand any of it.

[@JaySlay69]

What do you "mind changed"? Vaush turns conservative?!

[@theneutralguy2317]

based vaush?

[@anapaulapedro7025]

He was already conservative duh. It’s why I’m subscribed!!

[@bumblebeeatbreadloaf1286]

No it was the conservative that changed their mind. About horses.

[@DrogozBack]

Vaush good?!?!?!?!

[@unclegumbald989]

Well, when you reach a certain wealth threshold… 😉

[@Just_another_turtle]

A turtle approves of this hope

[@daraghokane4236]

This blobfish likes turtles

[@SirKemzyGodle]

These two are gonna turn the Animal Kingdom into the Animal Commune fr

[@The.church.of.scientology]

Not just another turtle, but rather a magnificent tortoise is how I see you comrade

[@chaoszhul_4d586]

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

[@francisguyman3819]

Dude, as a fellow Virginian who was pulled out of public school because I was taught evolution, this debate is hitting close to home.

[@jarastar6499]

Haha- I was also pulled out of school as a kid because of evolution. Except my parents pulled me out because I was in a private Christian school and they were teaching creationism. My parents are very Christian themselves, but they have no patience for that anti-science shit. My dads a scientist and he’s very offended by creationism

[@lanegeorgeton8266]

Remember this 10 year old kid that thought the word Mexican was a slur . Not too hard to imagine how his parents talked about Mexicans

[@19Szabolcs91]

Same here lol. Different country (Hungary), but my grandparents used “gipsy” as a derogatory term for being dirty, rude and dumb. Then I got into trouble for that when saying it in school, and I had no idea why. I mean, kida said “worse” things like shit-eater all the time. Literally had no idea that gipsy refers to a race.

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@19Szabolcs91 I never understood what gipsy meant, i asked but i never got a concrete answer I ended up thinking it meant those people that read your palm and stuff My family also called some poorly educated neighbors they knew "gypsies" because of their life style (which was pretty criminal tbh). I don't think anyone really knows the weight it has, it's just the designated phrase for that kind of people My father got his mind changed rather recently and he even told me about a "gipsy" he met. The guy talked to my father while waiting to seal a deal over some spare parts (the guy worked at the place, he was paid very poorly but his boss allowed him to steal parts every so often so it apparently evened out?) After hearing some of his life, why he could never learn how to read and write, etc. He just re-evaluated his views In fact, i still wasn't sure what it meant until just now when i googled it I'm still wondering WHY this is the case tho

[@CrazyFikus]

1:02:30 - "Creationism is a good example because I remember learning about the creationism versus evolution debate, and I think that the way that my teacher handled that at the time was absolutely phenomenal. He was religious personally and he said that, but then explained evolution fully and creationism fully, and said people have varying opinions on this." Knowing creationists he probably knew nothing about evolution and explained their strawman of evolution. 1:06:27 - "So I think that when you go that far back into history we're talking about the creation of life, the Big Bang, we don't know what happened and if you look at the science we have proof that humans evolved from monkeys but we don't have proof of how life started." Aaaand there we go, that's the creationist strawman. Evolution explains of diversity of life, nothing more, nothing less. Abiogenesis is the theory of life rising from non-life. Its also one of those theories where you can't really tell if it should be taught in biology or chemistry class. Big Bang is cosmology and astrophysics, completely different branches of science, any teacher that tries to connect it to evolution should be fired immediately. Out of a cannon.

[@daraghokane4236]

He doesn't know what evolution or creationism means so his teacher did a bad job

[@LimeyLassen]

My high school teacher was a creationist too and I got over it after a couple weeks on youtube, this guy has no excuse lmao

[@ianking7511]

"I don't think that ... we're ever going to live in a society where corporations can put people in prison for their entire lives" my dude, may I introduce you to a man by the name of Steven Donziger...

[@eldritchhero8120]

Whenever I think about a good person who is centrist or centre right because they've mainly been misled, this is like the exact guy in my mind lol. Like we even heard an example of how the education system failed him in the debate. I really hope he keeps watching and questioning things.

[@MintTea2005]

One thing I think Vaush should’ve touched on is that what if PARENTS raise their kids being racist or homophobic? They would be causing the same “damage” that people like this guy would be worried about the teachers causing.

[@shaleenpathak6786]

Parents ARE doing exactly that. That's why they don't want tolerance and push for those don't say gay bills

[@christopher6754]

"I think they should eat an entire turd" is THE appropriate response to anyone who says the parents should have direct input over the curriculum in such a way that feels over reals, or just feels in general, overrides the input of people who have an actual understanding of the material.

[@theone4782]

These laws are crazy bro, i can not imagine living in a country like that. American laws are so harsh and the way punish people is just brutal, its like as if the country is ruled by edgy highshool snitches.

[@svinitials]

In the beginning with the whole "but the citizens/parents fund it so they get to dictate every minutiae" bit, does that mean I can go down to my local DMV or courthouse and demand the public servants there do as I say since I "pay for their salary"? Wtf is this logic

[@alex_blue5802]

Right? That's now how taxes work at all.

[@joelsommers]

It's so fascinating to watch Vaosh in this debate, especially past the point when his opponent turns out to be uniquely open to having his mind changed. And btw PROPS TO HIM for not only being intellectually honest about his views, but also being willing to let the battlefield of his conscience be consumed like entertainment by a largely hostile audience. That's the moment the video slipped from the background into my full attention. I loved that Vaosh was patient and respectful but also relentless and intractable. It was a maestro-level demonstration of how we can and do change minds, not because we can pummel bad ideas into rhetorical pulps, but because of the obvious virtue of our left wing ideas. Explaining our ideas clearly is the most convincing thing we can do. Ideas of bad faith, faulty logic, or toxic misinformation all wither in the light actual moral reasoning.

[@jamierichardson7683]

I am paying into that education system with no kids utilizing it. That doesn't bother me because I want an educated society around me. I prefer that education be reality/empirically determined.

[@raak4070]

What's wrong with your dog lmao

[@raak4070]

Also based and true

[@jamierichardson7683]

@@raak4070 😂 Long toothed hound. Or a dog chewing a bone.

[@jamierichardson7683]

@@raak4070 I try.

[@raak4070]

@@jamierichardson7683 oh ok lmao

[@trustyvault13canteen32]

This guy is the perfect example of what bad education does. He has good basic morals, but completely lacks the media literacy and general education to recognize what is good and bad for these morals.

[@RunningOnAutopilot]

Fun fact before ethical science standards were enforced they did a study on of you can trans someone. It was the born a boy raised a girl study and the conclusion is that you can't trans someone even if you start from when they first get language. People get a sense of their brain sex at a very early age and as soon as the option of socialy transitioning to being treated as a boy was brought up to the subject he instantly agreed even though he had never been treated as a boy before that point

[@xxxnapoleon69]

So he’s technically trans?

[@binho6600]

@@xxxnapoleon69 considering he was Assigned Female At Birth... Then... Yeah, kinda

[@alex_blue5802]

Also if you could change someone's gender through sheer force of will, a lot of trans people would have been turned cis. A lot of them grew up in an unsupportive environment and that didn't stop them from being trans.

[@goldengolem4670]

Can i get the source on this, not because of doubt but because i want to see it

[@jaredgreathouse3672]

43:15 this is a MASSIVE Motte and Bailey. "Teachers are like literally teaching kids to be gay, like literally." "Never heard of it, i don't think this happens, and I'm against it if it did happen." "No? Neither have I, but they hang the pride flag up someplace, and that's kinda cringe"

[@StormCrownSr]

He's close to getting it with the school integration analogy, but then he misses it and I just SCREAM.

[@saven355]

Honest discussion with an honest interlocutor is always welcome. This was a joy to listen to.

[@Unhingedanduninformed]

I will say it is good to see someone with a desire to have their mind changed engage in a thoughtful conversation and… have their mind changed

[@younggod5230]

it's always funny to see how stunted these cons are on sexuality. They talk so unreflectedly - as they really, legitimately, never had to think about it. All their experiences were seen as normal and validated, they never had that fish out of water feel

[@lucaslinnell5061]

Vaush was fire in this entire debate. I commenting in hopes to pump him more in the algorithm but more importantly because it’s fire and it needs to spread

[@dumpsterDeity]

Gotta give this guy the credit. He can admit when he's wrong, and that takes guts.

[@alexwray6173]

There’s no such thing as not being political in the classroom. Not mentioning a political topic is being political, just as much as mentioning it.

[@mvslice]

This guy is actually willing to learn.

[@Likeicare96]

My favourite part was when he said his teacher handled treating the controversy well by teaching evolution and creationism as valid opposing ideas, but still (as an adult) conflates cosmology and Abiogenesis as part of the “evolutionary theory”. As someone who grew up in evangelical spaces, and was also taught this, it shows mild indoctrination from a young age. Creationists love to conflate these different fields of science, and treat disproving one (rather not knowing the answers so doing a god of the gaps thing), disproves the other

[@gutterslugiam]

YES MORE DEBATES I FEEL BLESSED VAUSH THX

[@Mudmunt]

No kid is gonna just listen to a teacher saying "don't bully", like what happens if the students ask why they shouldn't bully gay people? How would you be able to say "gay people are good" to someone who doesn't know it's not bad without losing your job and getting thrown in the slammer? It's like that one rick and morty episode where Rick makes a robot that's only rule is to not reveal its a robot, it's ridiculous.

[@thesaltybeard1793]

This dude is a perfect case study that even when a person is acting in OBSCENELY good faith as this person is, so much as conceding a specific point about one part of one argument that you believed opposingly is sometimes literally physically painful/uncomfortable. You could hear it in his voice. I think everyone needs to understand this when talking to people.

[@wulfleyn6498]

It was nice to see someone who actually relented and understood to some degree when their ideas didn't work as well as they thought.

[@JRWO88]

If you have to spend 3 hours for each of them with for that little gain then I don’t see the value in that. It would better if they just don’t exist then having to spend that much effort and time for what decent people can just simply infer with plain old logic.

[@lovelyhomeboy1584]

@@JRWO88 my nigga you are literally advocating for genocide on people who are not even that bad.

[@galacticpigeon2985]

@@JRWO88 I hate to break it to you, but if we changed a few details in your life you would likely be neither decent nor receptive to this "plain old logic". They are still humans at the end of the day, and that is where the value in this lies. The fact you dont see that is depressing on its own.

[@upoverandgone95]

@@JRWO88 And thats why the video gets posted so it can reach millions. Quite a few of them like this guy

[@pacificangel1769]

One of the most depressing things I've read in a while.

[@ArchlordZer0]

This Conservative talks about taxes as if it's the parent's choice to pay them and so then they get to decide how things work. No. You pay taxes in order to participate in the society, build your business on the land the government owns, and use the currency of that society. The curriculum is up to the government and not the parent.

[@connect2437]

Also, we all pay taxes for schools. I don’t have a kid but I sure do want students taught proper information and how to be well developed socially. Makes society better for all of us

[@BurntOutPua]

I think it’s worthwhile to mention that the parents can still contradict everything taught in school, can still indoctrinate the kiddos however at home and in their church of choosing…they don’t lose all control over their little ones’ minds, they just don’t get to make the public classroom theirs as well.

[@LaylaSpellwind]

"I think they should eat an entire turd." I had to pause to stop choking on my drink so I could hear the rest of the video. XD

[@chrisn.6477]

This was amazing, best discussion/debate in a LONG time. It’s been a long time since someone Vaush spoke with was able to listen and be reached - to think without reason, not react defensively and emotionally when views/beliefs are challenged. This type of result requires a calm, good-faith effort and mindset on both sides of the discussion. Vaush often says online “debates” between 2 content creators/people with followings is a largely pointless exercise if your goal is changing the other person’s mind. He instead says, at best, some people in the opposing party’s audience listen to and accept points that Vaush makes - for those people to then continue their journey away from their flawed positions. This guy is a perfect example of someone who could be reached by Vaush debating a conservative personality that this guy follows & has accepted said personality’s arguments/positions to be good and correct. I commend both Vaush and the other gentleman greatly for this example of what has become a disturbingly rare event - 2 people who disagree on issues having a calm, rational discussion that is productive - it is difficult for people to accept when they have been “wrong” or been successfully “misled” into their current position. It is reflex for people to feel attacked, get defensive, and really dig in their heels when they are confronted with the realization that they can’t (and should no longer) defend or support a position they’ve held. This was really nice to see. Take care everyone.

[@tobiashagstrom4168]

1:02:31Here he says his teacher was religious, which does not imply creationist. 1:03:30 Here he says the teacher was a creationist, "because he's was religious", IDK if I should interpret that as the teacher saying or implying he was a creationist, or if this guy is conflating being a creationist with being religious. 1:04:47 If he "doesn't know whether creationism is real or not", then that disproves the previous claim he made that the teacher did a good job teaching evolution. If you understand that life forms are nested in a hierarchy of inherited positive and negative traits, that these lineages can be traced through geological strata, that predictions can be made about them, that this explains many quirks that don't make sense otherwise, and that we know a fair bit about the kind of process through which this change can happen, then it shouldn't really be possible for you to not be confident about the broad conclusions within evolutionary theory, unless you believe in some sort of god-like entity who is trying to trick us to believe evolution is well supported. Now granted, he seems to be suffering from what Aron Ra would call the 6th Foundational Falsehood of Creationism(yes, I am very early twenty-tens youtube atheism-brained, I apologize for nothing), which is the equation of evolution with all established theory regarding the naturalistic history of the world, such as the big bang, or the origin of life itself. When I hear evolution, I think of it as the theory that about how iterative changes to already reproducing life forms add up to radical changes over time, and that probably all living things on the planet are related, and I generally assume creationism to mean "ribwoman came from dirtman, and they hung out with the vegan t-rex until the talking snake with legs told them to eat enchanted fruit, also Noah's Flood happened". But the issue changes a bit depenend on what you assume these terms mean, as seems to be the case 1:06:26 I'm not sure if I've heard someone before defend the idea that a position based on ignorance is fundamentally the same as one based on a true ideological difference, as if not understanding some basic shit is as understandable as having an ideological disagreement.

[@underthethunder]

This debate restored my faith in humanity

[@thevoid3010]

This was a really good talk. We need more debates like this, even if they won’t be all as amicable as this guy

[@morgansubtilis6852]

Parent input to public education is advisorial, not dictatorial. Precisely because parents do not have the expertise needed to decide what needs to be taught both from a societal perspective or from a need to maintain democracy. We also fund the military but do not direct what the military does.

[@sebastianlavallee706]

This guy is such an indictment of the Education system... "I had a really great teacher. He was a creationist, but he taught us creationism and evolution equally, and to this day I don't know which one is true, because he was such a great teacher!".

[@rompevuevitos222]

Being honest, for a religious teacher, that sounds pretty damn good The real issue imo is having religion alongside education. But again, private schools can do whatever they want Altho knowing the US, public schools probably also teach that stuff (?)

[@Rill154]

@NANCOK It's illegal to teach creationism as science in US public schools.

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@Rill154 In ALL public schools? that's nice

[@Rill154]

@NANCOK Yes. Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional, so it's countrywide. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen (if our debater went to public school, we have our example of it happening right there). And a previous Supreme Court decision doesn't mean what it once did. But as it stands, it's currently illegal to teach creationism as a science and to ban the teaching of evolution in public schools in the US.

[@elijahkazan1795]

I'm watching it from Europe and I'm hallucinating. Vaush get most of the points with chirurgical precision and good logic. I'm learning a lot.

[@sethdrake7551]

you could tell by how he paused at different points that he was really actually thinking about the topic not just idly reiterating talking points or zoning out and conceding everything reflexively

[@calestaiezu214]

It annoys me when people who have never had to deal with our health care system try to explain how it works and how medicare is bad. I have been navigating the health care system for 30+ years. I also work at a doctor's office. Insurance has been denying coverage for SO many things at the beginning of the year. They tried to deny coverage for when I needed my gallbladder removed citing "It wasn't necessary." My doctor had to fight them to make sure they paid out. The amount of money Americans pay to a private company to deny them coverage when they actually need it is more than enough money to fund medicare for all. The amount of medical debt people are in will be gone and they can actually afford their medications and maybe even afford to pay their bills, or maybe even invest in physical therapy, or a gym membership, or some other sorts of alternative health care measures. Instead they decide to argue and say that these huge corporations know what's best for us and have our best interest at the forefront, all while there are hundreds of thousands of people that can't afford a simple 10 minute surgery to restore their sight. Don't even get me started about how disabled people aren't even paid a fair wage. Companies use their disabilities as a way to say they don't deserve it.

[@Unhingedanduninformed]

‘I don’t want teachers to answer questions’ Got it

[@pogo8050]

This is like hopium in a can. Never count anyone out. Every person can be reached! Sometimes you just need to help them reach the water

[@seionne85]

Vosshiss's debate game has gone Super Saiyan God. A conservative can no longer hear his smooth tongue and remain unmoved

[@midnightflare9879]

This guy you debated is a legend. Conservatives usually just phase out whenever they hear something that might rock their statements. This guy...he just listened and admitted when he was in the wrong. And he did it in fornt of the Internet. Freaking legend!

[@TheNeoLoneWolf]

I am a 32 year old closeted trans, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that someone can be trans before puberty. Maybe if I ever had a chance to explore it without harassment I would have grown out of it, but at 32 I still think about transitioning despite the social, and economic cost of doing it. I know I would lose my job if I did so, and likely wouldn't be able to get another job in a similar field because its primarily conservatives. I know I started to think about it at 7 because I asked Santa for a Disney princess dress, and the next summer my mom divorced my dad, and moved me to another city to start 3rd grade. She didn't think it was possible for me to have that idea independently either, and she asked me for years for any proof that my dad did something to me. No matter how much I denied it she just thought I repressed it which I don't even think is a real thing.

[@jarastar6499]

I’m really sorry you had to go through all that. I hope you’re able to live your life happily, no matter how you identify now. You’re really strong for getting through your childhood despite being so sheltered and ostracized

[@philosphorus]

You can be anyone, and you can do anything (within reason. You can't fly. But you can get a wingsuit. You can't have telepathy but you can take mdma and lsd at the same time and look into each other's eyes) Be you. There's many wonderful possibilities in the world in love and happiness. Follow what YOU want. Those who love you will understand eventually even if they don't understand immediately

[@danbw8838]

yeah this guy had an open mind. Very rare anyone period is willing to consider and adopt new ideas.

[@briartreecross]

This guy needs to talk to gay and trans people. There are many who knew their feelings before puberty. Kids are a lot more aware of sex and generally smarter than he gives them credit for too.

[@deadman746]

This really happened. When I was in kindergarten, my mother was called in because I always wanted to play with the blocks and not the dolls. My mother explained that I had plenty of dolls at home, but what I did not have were the nice big wooden blocks. Of course those have not existed for decades, but they did. Of course, that was the 1960s, when people were trying to deconstruct gender stereotypes rather than enshrine them, and the teacher's action was merely ridiculous, but it happened and would probably be a Florida felony today.

[@ScarletAquaCrimson15]

I like debates like this one where it isn't constant interruptions and yelling. Even though this guy had some really dumb takes, he came into this open minded and in good faith which I respect.

[@essewaxegard9423]

I remember the first class with my geography teacher, he had a long spiel about the importance of geography then he said, climate denial won’t be taken seriously here and that it was simply a fact. He is a super cool dude and sometimes just because something is a political issue that doesn’t mean it is not also a scientific consensus and something we should agree upon as a fact in education. Education is about learning and if that is inconvenient to conservatives maybe they should reconsider the validity of their positions.

[@bfgfanatic1747]

I like this guy. It's so nice to see someone who's so open to discussion and can reflect on their beliefs with new information. He's got a good head on his shoulders, I'm glad Vaush had him on.

[@hi_austin]

Only an hour in but so far this dude’s arguments are solely based on boomer FB memes.

[@canadagoose8543]

I think Vaush's debate skills increase when he's playing video games.

[@alansiebert7029]

Schools are funded by everyone not just parents

[@notiddymothbirlfriend]

As a kid, I didn't know the word transgender. I didn't know that was a thing. When I hit puberty and railed against growing breasts and wearing a bra, I was called a tomboy, and my mom said I just never wanted to grow up. I was told it was normal for kids hitting puberty to hate their bodies. That it was normal to wish you could peel off your breasts like stickers and never ever take them back. That it was normal to feel that way every day and I was just "sensitive". So I pushed it down and ignored it because everyone felt like that, and I became a properly hateful little shit. Then I got therapy, and after years of unpacking bullshit I internalized and thought was just stuff everyone felt (it fucking wasn't), I got slapped in the face with the realization that I am, in fact, trans. I often wonder how much pain I could have been spared and how much fuckery I could have avoided if someone had just said to me "Some people are trans and that's okay" when I was little.

[@Jim73]

Not every taxpayer is a parent, so right there you can stop. I pay, do I not have a say?

[@priyonjoni]

I honestly think, if this guy had one chat with Shapiro, he would snap back in line.

[@xpirate16]

Yeah, as much credit as I'd like to give him, he might just be really impressionable. Hopefully, this talk sticks with him though

[@TheBioshocksnake]

I was starving for good debates to listen to, this was great nourishment!

[@samiamrg7]

He “wants kids to learn to treat people with respect,” but in order to do that, kids need to be exposed to different kinds of people to learn that despite having some differences, other races, other sexes, other sexualities are still people just like them. They like sweets, they like to play games and have fin, etc.

[@joincamel3937]

EXpecialy grinds on my nerves. ESPECIALLY someone who is arguing about education.🙄

[@jamierichardson7683]

You will get used of it.😉

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

😢

[@hichaelhighers]

I must of grinded my nerves to dust a millionth times alreadily

[@devinnie7572]

Why is it that so many conversations with conservatives (take the medical industry discussion here for example) so often come down to them basically saying "Well yes I agree that there are problems, but saying we should do something about those problems? That's too far."? Very frusterating.