Are Conservatives Just Mad At Kanye For "Saying The Quiet Part Out Loud"? | DEBATE

[@Froggsroxx]

This guy seems to be fighting really hard not to arrive at "wait, are we the bad guys?"

[@Cruizinelli12]

Or he just can’t accept that the republicans in his life probably agree with ye on the antisemitism and racism.

[@thepolarphantasm2319]

Not everybody can pull off that Mitchell and Webb look

[@jaredgreathouse3672]

Exactly. That's all it is

[@asphaltpilgrim]

Hahah good one. Bless him. (Respect for showing up though)

[@EpsilDelta197]

I feel like there was a moment during the stream where it started occurring to him. I hope he will accept that he previously supported the bad guys, but he can change.

[@Liberal_Neocon]

I apologize to everyone for my nervousness and inarticulateness. I am grateful to Vaush for letting me come on and talk with him. This is something I definitely care about, so I genuinely wanted to understand where Vaush was coming from and I wanted to share some of my concerns. This has given me a lot to think about.

[@jackkelly6067]

💖💖 you did great friend,don’t even sweat it. Far better than I would ever do

[@Fuzztooth]

Just keep moving left until you see the tank(ie)s.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

I'm happy to discuss these topics with you over text, if voice is difficult. Doesn't have to be public, doesn't have to be a debate.

[@Liberal_Neocon]

​@@jackkelly6067Thank you :)

[@MunajimaMegistus]

it's alright bro, it takes guts to be on there in front of lots and lots of people.

[@taffinjones8641]

I honestly started to feel pity listening to this💀 half of this was him trying to convince himself he's not voting for literal evil

[@lonelyone69]

It's so batshit that this is what conservative "moderates" are trying to hide that they're secret reactionaries annoyed about "SJWs" immigrants and the LGBTQ+. They just act enlightened centrist and will literally say "well its just logical" whenever asked to defend blatantly bigoted conservative policy.

[@anno-fw7xn]

i sad a coupel of time you can only be evil to vote for GOP ther is no other explorantion, they got pissd and reportet me to the discord mode of the server.

[@TescoValueMemes369]

Hopefully this conversation will help move him over.

[@hrothgr52]

Literal evil might be a bit strong but ok

[@alt3space]

@@hrothgr52 I think it fits quite well. The end goal of neo-Nazis is an ethnostate, and by appealing to them one is helping their goal.

[@fwdcnorac8574]

I'm a half-black guy in a 98% white town in Arizona. I wore one of Beau of The Fifth Columns T-shirts today. The quote said, "The GPS coordinates of your mother's vagina at the time of your birth does not determine your value as a person." A customer walked into my store. A mid-60-year-old white conservative male. He maintained his calm and was more or less polite but he asked me to explain my shirt. I said that it pretty much explains itself but I entertained him and said it means it's not about where you were born, but what you do that defines you as a person. He responded with "wrong. Find Jesus." and walked out. I thought to myself "why is it always the last one of the day?".

[@rainbowkrampus]

There are so many ways to interpret his response. All of them stupid.

[@Cancellator5000]

Yeah, Jesus was big on dehumanizing immigrants :/

[@littlemoth4956]

Ironic, considering “finding Jesus” is one of the merits that proves your shirt correct.

[@MooVeeMan]

That's such a fascinating reaction, because the message on your shirt is 100% in line with everything Jesus ever said, but this man's impression of Christianity is so intertwined with social conservatism that he's incapable of recognizing that. In his view, loving Jesus naturally leads to hating immigrants, probably because his church and right-wing media have pressed into his mind that the two are inextricable.

[@fwdcnorac8574]

@@MooVeeMan He presented himself as a "faith leader". "...Old enough to be your dad and allow me to say...." Like dude, I'm almost 50. He said he was 63. No. Not old enough to be my dad🤪

[@grimmrgoodbar6401]

I don’t want to infantilize anyone but this convo strikes me as someone who got 100% of his political beliefs from his parents and doesn’t like Vaush calling daddy and granddaddy Nazi’s.

[@rainbowkrampus]

💯

[@uninstaller2860]

Yeah and structured on catchphrases that he can understand on the surface

[@Saurawr]

Big agreed. Felt like 16 year old me got a hold of a time-phone and called Vaush

[@DnD_guydude]

Absolutely. It sounds like he goes “republicans good” and works backwards to justify it.

[@lava172]

Yeah he reminds me of myself in high school/early college before I started being exposed to left-leaning ideals, and only knew "obama bad" from my parents and that was the extent of it.

[@thecatinthefedora1201]

I feel kinda bad for this debater, because I know what it's like to have difficulties articulating one's points. If I was in his position, I'd be struggling just as badly

[@Ghee_Buttersnaps]

You are a compassionate soul comrade…

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

Cognitive dissonance is a fickle mistress.

[@connorpeppermint8635]

I'd be better at hiding it but that's how I would feel inside. Social anxiety sucks hard

[@jaredgreathouse3672]

It isn't just nervousness, it's realizing you can't really defend your points to someone who is aggressive in knowing what he's talking about and holding you to it.

[@CynicalBastard]

@@jaredgreathouse3672 It's party politics: holy crap. Like this isn't realy complicated. The guy says "not-all" and it's invariably true: then V. says "but the GOP is untenable, to support is X thing we don't like" - and thus eliminates him as a opponent, really, making him the X.

[@5TailFox]

Always remember: To Conservatives, "Small Government" just means they want to do away with the Civil Rights Act.

[@spartakos3178]

Name one prominent conservative that has stated that.

[@wilburbrickowski]

Complete strawman there.

[@5TailFox]

@@wilburbrickowski Okay, name a policy Conservatives are in favor of that DOESN'T come from the Jim Crow era. I'll wait.

[@5TailFox]

@@spartakos3178 Name a policy Conservatives are in favor of that DOESN'T come from the Jim Crow era.

[@TheMahayanist]

@@spartakos3178 They don't need to say it. It's logically entailed in what the policy does.

[@CuateVolador]

What's the deal with people saying "sure, the GOP had some problem but i'm with them cus i agreed with them in..." And proceed to describe mainstream Dem stuff?

[@jatsko3113]

They're probably continuously lied to by the right about what the Democratic party supports

[@rainbowkrampus]

Short answer, self identification and tribalism taking prominence over moral reasoning. Slightly longer answer, dude identifies as a conservative. The idea that the party of conservatism has driven itself off a cliff is less important for him than the identification. So he uses post hoc rationalizations to justify his continued affiliation and cognitive dissonance takes care of all the icky feelings when he votes for people who are vocally opposed to the things he believes in.

[@Ironraven001]

To be fair, old school "Center Right" politics are indeed modern mainstream Dem policies. Also Dems suck at messaging super fucking hard.

[@periwinkle6676]

brain rot

[@GrayTimber]

"So what are you getting out of republicans? It's Israel isn't it." "I like Israel" I remember this part in the stream and it legit made me guffaw

[@ktgrnhig]

I also expected “The Iraq war” to come up, but he was dancing around too much to just come out and say it.

[@DimaRakesah]

Same, I LOL'd for sure.

[@TheSpeep]

It never looked good, but boy did that age in some way!

[@sonicbelmont300]

The biggest problem with this guy is you can tell a lot of his positions are held due to familiarity, which is why elaboration was so difficult on his end (putting aside obvious nervousness). But like Vaush said at the end, this is clearly approached honestly and in good faith, and I'm glad to see him in this comment section talking about how much he's been given to chew on. A pretty great discussion all things considered.

[@scoople6]

I caught this conversation live and even though it's frustrating I love these kinds of talks, because they are both acting in good faith. It's a lot more human than higher profile debates and it's the kind of conversations that I think can actually change the mind of the person you're talking with.

[@eliastew9636]

Debate is amazing for good faith people really let’s you test your ideas and opens you up

[@JebeckyGranjola]

It would be a lot more refreshing if people like this weren't literally getting us killed.

[@phanatic215]

Homie didn't come in playing talking point bingo. I don't mind this.

[@Froggsroxx]

I mean if you don't denounce or oppose what "your side" is advocating... then yes you are just as complicit?

[@Anthropomorphic]

Haven't watched the whole thing yet, but agreeing and being complicit seem like different questions to me.

[@Froggsroxx]

@@Anthropomorphic yes one makes them a fascist, the other makes them a fascist collaborator. In either case they are not pushing back against fascism, so crying about being lumped in with fascists is their own fault.

[@Anthropomorphic]

@@Froggsroxx Sure, it basically comes down to what we're making claims about.

[@KenS1267]

@@Froggsroxx This. Going along with fascists makes you indistinguishable from fascists. I'm sick of this. I gamed with a Republican for more than a decade until 2016. I asked him if he voted for Trump and tossed him out of my house.

[@ոakedsquirtle]

@@KenS1267 I don't like ruining interpersonal relationships because of politics. In 2016 I was basically anarchocapitalist libertarian. And I voted for Trump because (I thought) Neocon views equalled less government spending and overreach. Even though I was never socially conservative, (and would have gladly voted for an actual libertarian party) I agreed with Trump on building the wall. This was based on a false understanding of how immigration affect the economy. I always had disdain for the Ben Shapiro types who would can themselves libertarian but were just Republicans who are okay with weed lol. Anyways, my current political stance is social democrat, BUT I am not opposed to Communism and would be honestly okay if the US had a successful Communist revolution. Political opinions can change so it by itself is no reason to kick a friend out of your life.

[@savourydiamond3448]

Amazing that he literally sums up his support for the republican party by trying to remember the quote "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" as if that somehow makes his point stronger.

[@DatDude0925]

That is literally only supporting evidence for the axiom that all Republicans are either stupid, evil, or both.

[@michaelnewman7248]

That was ben Shapiro's defense of trump for 4 years. God I loved the Ben Shapiro show during that time, his discomfort gave me life

[@CteCrassus]

Funny thing is, the saying doesn't stop there; It ends with "But don't discount malice either".

[@vincentninja68]

It's a logical fallacy called "argument from ignorance" it's irrelevant. "They're not nazis, they're just stupid" is a really weak argument.

[@tibiademon9157]

Sometimes it's both malice and stupidity.

[@themightymcb7310]

I was this guy once, only for Christianity instead of conservatism. It took trying to defend the indefensible and prove the impossible to make me finally stop and wonder if I was arguing on the correct side. It took some reflection before I decided that I hadn't been and should change that. Edit: I should note I was like 15 when I worked this stuff out and things were greatly helped along by actually reading the bible in search of good religious arguments.

[@TheDiabeticGameMaster]

Proud of you, buddy!

[@ericcolbear2373]

It takes a strong mind to say "maybe I was wrong" and change your mind based on the evidence, then it takes to double down. I'm glad you were strong enough to change.

[@turkeyherder9456]

I was the same way! Then I realized that I was working towards a conclusion and that I should start at an unbiased position. As close to without bias as one can anyway.

[@sing2meh]

I was this guy once, but for conservatism and Christianity. It threw me into a pretty deep depression during COVID (mostly over faith) because it felt like everything in the world I knew and loved was crumbling. After a *lot* of deep thought and learning, I’m still a Christian- though the faith I have now is very different than the one I held before. And I left conservatism behind. This guy has a good heart, he just needs time to say goodbye to his old worldview.

[@jontobin5942]

I had that epiphany at 14 but not because I was trying to defend Christianity. I was too humble and thought I just didn’t understand but came to realize that, no, I Was understanding what the supposedly more knowledgeable people were telling me. They didn’t understand my counterpoints or would get irrationally angry from questions I considered basic scrutiny. I still fall into the trap of coddling dipshits and putting Imposter Syndrome on myself but I’ve gotten better at recognizing it after a bit and telling loud idiots to shut up and let me speak.

[@moorejim13]

This is a perfect example of how political conversation has become less about ways to better peoples lives in America and how it’s all about tribalism and trying to get your team to be better than the other, throughout this conversation I heard nothing about what his values are and all I heard was him labeling himself with these political terms that low key mean nothing

[@joshuapowers4623]

It's because he doesn't know what his positions actually are.

[@aguspuig6615]

and on the other side you have vaush labeling the other half of the country a nazi, i agree 100% we have to stop with the tribalism and focus on issues and solutions, then agin im not even in america but it applies everywere regardless

[@omegatheta1701]

"I dont want Iran to have nukes" ok then why do you have such a boner for the deal that 100% prevented them from having nukes.....? the deal that was verified by basically everyone of any import on gods green earth. like this discussion annoyed me because like, this guy BADLY wants to be a good person but his entire moral framework is corrupted.... i Genuinely hope that he can be brought around.

[@EvilGuacamoleGaming]

The thing with conservative values is that by their nature they are hard to shed. After all, conservatism teaches that being conservative is what makes you a good person. So rather than stopping being a conservative it's easier to say you are the good conservative and everyone else fucked it up.

[@lukajolich7669]

You also have to consider where those values come from as often times they come from one's family or community. In those cases, even if you can see reasons to not be a conservative anymore, you will always have to weigh that against losing favor with the conservatives you know, especially when many often think not being a conservative makes you automatically evil.

[@Ojja78]

This is what it sounds like when you're in the process of deradicalizing yourself. Good on him for doing this. He still has a long road ahead, but he seems to be at least somewhat open to asking questions and receiving answers to those questions.

[@owendavis5420]

Nice when a debate doesn’t immediately become heated

[@cctomcat321]

Is that what this was?

[@bubbafett225]

The “how can you be so sure”’s were a little annoying

[@Saurawr]

It does not matter if the people who have policies that harm opressed races are, personally, racist. I cannot see in their heart and mind, and I do not care to. If your policies cause racial harm, they are racist policies, and I dislike you for holding them. That you also ally with the obvious racists and have the same views, but might not actually feel the same things in your hearts and minds means nothing to me.

[@joelsommers]

Yes! Exactly! It's so frustrating to hear the refrain from republicans that 'Democrats are thought police.' Um, no. Not even close. I am absolutely disinterested in what anybody thinks. My project is to create an America in which being hateful or bigoted is an increasing untenable thing to be in public. We are working for societal standards not thought control. Be as big a racist or homophobe as you want to be....just understand that in the America envisioned by lefties, you'll be met with isolation and condemnation.

[@kimpacheco8466]

💯

[@thejackal007]

I feel this guy at least isn't debating in bad faith but I'd really like to see him crystallize his points before coming on next time. Listening to this in 1.5X speed was the only thing that got me through it all.

[@kelloggserial5414]

An hour in and he still hasn't made a single point or made it through a single chain of logic. He just keeps going back to foreign policy when asked about policy he wants implemented and then can't even describe what he wants us to be doing. This is why he's conservative; he is so disconnected from reality to the point that he can't name any single issue or policy dispute, and when any that vaush brings up work against his point he just fucking loops back to a vague "foreign policy"

[@ShewWoW]

Much respect to this dude for going out there and speaking his mind, even with the nerves Not all the way through the vid yet but gotta mention, Tucker is like the #1/2 news show in the country… what Vaush is saying isn’t generalization. These intense fascistic views are more and more mainstream.

[@NighttimeJuneau]

True, from an outside perspective, just an excerpt of any Tucker broadcasts looks like end-stage insanity.

[@mattglass2933]

“I disagree with republicans on every issue but I like republicans positions more”

[@7TheWhiteWolf]

Come on, we all know Alex and Nick believe everything Kanye does, Kanye is just off his meds and is unhinged enough to say the quiet part out loud, unlike those other cowards.

[@Anthropomorphic]

Nick might. With Alex, though, I think he agrees with Ye in terms of a lot of the details, but disagrees about some of the fundamentals. They see a lot of the same dynamics at work in society, but differ on exactly what they think the core issue is. Ye's stuck on re-centering the conversation around Jewish people, while Alex thinks all of society's evils are actually because of the Godless Commies. I could be wrong, but I don't think Alex was *only* trying to cover his ass when he kept trying to direct Ye away from the Jews, I think he genuinely thinks focusing on the Jews is missing the forest for the trees. That's not to say that Alex isn't an antisemite under some definition, but I think it's primarily because he's willing to make common cause with antisemites to oppose the left.

[@MumblingSolipsist]

lol, nick never was secret about it?! and there's no reason to think Alex is one. Real dumb take you made.

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Never thought unhinged and off his meds would be a description given contrary to AJ.

[@mattjk5299]

@@JebeckyGranjola AJ seems to be very capable of tuning down his unhinged-ness when it's useful to him. I don't buy it.

[@Lucas-cz5to]

I mean, Kanye is not brave though, he is just openly conservative, while the others dog wisthle

[@Haiphong778]

That fellow made me think of myself from my earlier 20's. Back then most of my exposure to "the left" was feminist cringe compilations and I hadn't yet seen how a lot of my viewpoints had been sculpted to persecute people that I myself didn't consciously wish to discriminate against. People being willing to hear me and challenge my views (and myself being willing to be challenged) was how I ended up as a firm leftist. It was a bumpy ride and a brief redpill addiction but now we here frens.

[@joshuapowers4623]

This is exactly why they go so hard with the fake news stuff. Once you can convince someone they don't have to go see what others are saying because you'll let them know what everyone else is saying, you've got them trapped.

[@gallowglassblood]

same here. in my early teens i was deeply involved in the skeptic/anti-sjw community. didn’t manage to get out of it until my sister and female friends started calling me on my nonsense. didn’t realize how much of my thinking was molded by subtle messaging and symbolism until i was called on it. idk if i can claim leftism. more of a pro-gun social dem, but it’s a positive departure from neo-fascism in my book.

[@moorejim13]

its the cognitive dissonance for me

[@dawildbear]

Pre-Trump and Post-Trump republican party are very different. Think of it like an egg and a chicken. Barely comparable objects. But if you start with eggs, don't be surprised when you got chickens.

[@surajbhat5447]

Jc I love that analogy, def gonna steal that one lol

[@HalfBackCrack]

The republican party isnt different though.

[@tylerbarnes8748]

@@HalfBackCrack should we let distinctions like these go if it helps some "pre-Trump" republican de-radicalize?

[@Kropothead]

Yes. They absolutely are.

[@JoeFromCincinnati]

His entire argument was literally, "Please don't call me a fascist. I'm not happy that I collaborate with Fascists...I just do it because changing my political views is hard."

[@joelsommers]

Vaush, you get a lot of credit for keeping the discussion fairly genteel with this guy, who was obviously both very nervous and suffering from a severe case of uninspected ideologies. Not that it needs stating any better, but in my imaginary conversation with this bro--who seems to be genuinely offended by legitimate critiques of republican politics, and who also seems to want to be a good American--here're a couple of points I found myself speaking aloud to my notebook: 1. The republican party, craven and jingoistic though it obviously was before 2016, has absolutely transformed into a dark, dangerous, ideologically bereft shell of its pre-Trump facade. This is evidenced by how the party has systematically purged itself of any remotely dissenting voices like Paul Ryan, Pat Toomey, Liz Cheney, etc. But especially when at the 2020 republican national convention, the party refused to even offer a party platform, because it had fully given iteslf over not to a set of tenants but to literally whatever Donald Trump wanted, this is the moment all republicans gave up even the pretense of being driven by core "issues." 2. I feel for people like this guy, who look at the republicans party and try so hard to see themselves, and not the quislings that actually occupy elected office. It must be disorienting and dispiriting. But the fact is that even if there were some vast hidden majority of elected republicans who *secretly* despise Trumpism, and who are playing Nth dimensional chess in order to hold onto their office so they can work within the party for reform, they are currently failing as badly as they possibly could to do this. And meanwhile, their silence or their tepid condemnation is so milquetoast as to be nonexistent. So what does that leave? It leaves this "establishment" wing of the republican party (which I'm not convinced is even real) as being materially indistinguishable from the Trump wing of the republican party: a distinction without a difference. 3. To just add to the example about the Iran nuke deal: This the perfect example that illustrates how close the pre-Trump and post-Trump republican parties actually are to each other. The Iran deal is something that, had it been negotiated by republicans, would have been lauded by the party as a watershed Reaganesque moment akin to "Tear down this wall" in terms of historic American greatness. But because it was a (center-right) Democratic president who negotiated it, republicans were united against it. Why? Because before and after Trump, republicans have been defined most by their opposition to democrats, often, perhaps mostly, even to the exclusion of what's good for America. "Whoa! Dude, that's a strong accusation!" It sure is. But how else can you assess a deal that had removed all vestiges of Iran's nuclear program and had opened Iran up to the most intrusive ongoing IAEA inspections regime in history? This is a deal that guaranteed Iran would not develop nuclear weapons for decades. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't a deal to address Iran's participation in terrorism unrelated to nukes. But that wasn't what the deal ever promised to do. However, if you're in the business of caring about whether or not Iran has nukes, then you should support the Iran deal. And it's worth noting that after Trump--broadly supported by the entire republican party, including the "establishment" wing,--complained mightily about the billions of dollars we gave Iran, and yet after he pulled us out of the deal, Trump also never got a single dollar of those billions back from Iran. So today, as a result of canceling the deal, republicans have only accomplished giving Iran billions of dollars to... expel the IAEA inspectors and to rapidly reconstitute their nukes program. Today, Iran is the furthest along its program to develop nuke weapons that they have ever been and are billions richer because Trump and establishment republicans nullified Obama's nuclear disarmament treaty. There is literally no way to look at this as a jewel of republican foreign policy superiority, before or after Donald Trump. A world safer from nuclear weapons, an America safer, even an Israel safer--none of these things were worth handing Obama and the democrats a foreign policy victory. What is virtuous about an establishment republican who casually values political gamesmanship over American security? All in all, I really liked this conversation and I really like the respect with which you treated his opinions. That's how we change minds. I hope you guys talk again.

[@Syncopiia]

You can go even further. Ben Shapiro has accepted the premises of systemic racism and a number of other issues on Joe Rogan's show in the past, then went right back to saying shit he conceded to Joe in those talks. You can go back through their past statements and prove that they're conciously lying to their audiences.

[@jaredgreathouse3672]

57:30 "Why was the deal bad?" "I don't agree with it." "Okay. Why?" "It's bad." "It was internationally acclaimed. May have some bad aspects, but why is it bad?" "Uhhhh...." Like Noncompete

[@axnasim]

he didn't want to say "If Iran gets more power, it serves as a threat to Israel" which is a common talking point for pro-Israel types because Iran has been on the forefront of opposing Israel and funds proxy groups to give the country/government a hard time and cause stress. More money means more resources, means more problems, even if that deal could be reneged with an aggression clause, any power at all for Iran is catastrophic. The lens that the Israel government uses is about power and dominance, which is why the IDF is constantly policing Palestinians and patrolling holy sites while the government refuses to give permits for building while encroaching onto the held Palestinianm territories by moving settlers in. This guy presents with the same shit I've seen: hyper vigilance, hyper defensiveness and victimization. He knows what Vaush has said about Israel so my guess is he doesn't want to "expose himself" he was terrified to publicly say he supports a far-right apartheid government, but also that it would make him a target for anti-semitism. That's deep indoctrination shit, I have a feeling this guy has been heavily influenced by his family and is starting to come to his own conclusions.

[@jaredgreathouse3672]

@@axnasim I agree. I don't think this guy is a liar, I thinkhe was being forced to come to grips with the idea that his ideology has fundamentally ugly consequences

[@axnasim]

@@jaredgreathouse3672 yeah true true, he seemed genuine and I appreciate that he came on at all, even if i find his views repugnant. i hope inshallah he will sort himself out and find his own way, it's not easy.

[@MisterRorschach90]

I am choosing to believe that his nervousness and stuttering isn’t a normal thing he suffers from, and that instead he was realizing first person that he can’t defend his beliefs, and that he has no reasons to hold them. However if I’m wrong and he can actually defend his beliefs, the reason he didn’t is probably because those defenses would paint him as just as bad as every other republican.

[@jaredgreathouse3672]

It isn't normal for him, this is likely the first time he's spoken to another adult who didn't do the normal "we'll agree to disagree" thing and move on. This is the first time somebody's ever pressed him, and he realized that he couldn't back any of his points up.

[@underthethunder]

Love me them Vowsh debates

[@ashfox7498]

Luv me debates, Luv me okaybuddy, Luv me babies 'ate anime takes, 'ate video game takes, 'ate movie takes simple as

[@TR13400]

It's Vosh

[@khbgkh]

Vaush, the way you handled this debate was amazingly professional and patient. I was very happy to see your approach reflecting the point you have made many times: debating with a pro in their own arena is always dangerous!

[@Turtletoots3]

This brings back memories of tripping over my tongue back in school presentations. I'm glad you didn't just interrupt him. I know it can be awkward and annoying sometimes but speaking can be so hard in these situations. I'm surprised he had the guts to come on despite the nerves and I give him props for that.

[@BradDoggett]

This is unbearable. I’m out.

[@Crawver]

It was fascinating to listen to when he got bogged down on the Iran deal. All he could say was he thought it was a bad deal that he disagreed with, but when asked to describe what he disliked about it, he kept having to go to vague, general "My background is I'm a liberal conservative". This is all it ever will be. He doesn't have a strong grasp on politics. He likes themes, he likes general ideas, and he has believed that the republicans are better on the things he likes. But he doesn't actually know enough to know if that was true or not.

[@lolwtfbbq111]

I like this kinda measured, calm discussion with vaush and other people. why can't all guests be this decent? Bro is a conservative and I don't like conservativism really but he seemed like a good person. Hope he finds his way to more progressive thought. Good job talking to vaush. Don't worry about the nerves. Public speaking is hard for most of us.

[@joshuapowers4623]

It's because he's desperately trying to convince himself he's not siding with and voting for the baddies. He doesn't want to believe the things his brain is screaming at him.

[@tailsprowerfan2729]

I will never be a part of the far right or far left I will always be a conservative for life

[@jonasharp3]

@@tailsprowerfan2729 good for you. It takes a lot of guts to never change your position regardless of the evidence brought to you lmao.

[@lolwtfbbq111]

@@joshuapowers4623 yup

[@tailsprowerfan2729]

@@jonasharp3 I’m aslo pro 2A I believe all law abiding citizens should have the right to bare arms Yes even people on the left

[@1123elemental]

I love how you immediately knew it was Israel. It's always fucking Israel

[@stuartsmith4369]

Republicans who support Trump are so cringe, I like Republicans who supported Trump.

[@roberteriksen6434]

One thing that really was strange to me back in 2015, was how eager every republican was to throw everybody else under the bus. Like the South Park Yelp review meme, there was a literal army of republicans saying in unison that they alone understood the republican party's intentions were secretly good, but that the republican party needed to please the masses and be racist out of necessecity. I remember seeing an interview with 10 people back to back on a speaker saying the exact same thing, in front of everyone, without a single neuron firing that something might be wrong here. Seeing that same sentiment in 2022 is kinda amazing, it has been a long abandoned talking point since everybody has already falled in line cause none of them believed any of it to begin with. It's like finding a modern Hiroo Onoda. An Onoda that instead of never recieving the call got bombarded by calls daily and were just in denial.

[@ShimmerBodyCream]

These were good questions, I'm glad he's genuine and asked them.

[@fjordojustice]

People made fun of him for it in chat but I was heartened by his statement at the end: he wouldn't support the republican party if he thought they were fascist and that he'll look more into whether that's true. It's the right attitude to take IMO.

[@JebeckyGranjola]

That's what every Republican says. You might've noticed that the people who kicked off this discussion, the ones that Republicans are arguing don't represent them by being openly antisemitic, even those people don't call themselves Fascists.

[@fjordojustice]

@@JebeckyGranjola I don't think most Republicans are actually researching in good faith whether their party is fascist. I think this guy might be doing so

[@steveglynn1006]

...But he would *totally fail to realize they were fascists* because "Well, how can you know that death camps are bad?"

[@SS-xr7jf]

I don’t get why you’d make foreign policy your deciding factor when that’s the part of the parties that is most interchangeable. Establishment republicans and establishment dems are pretty samey in terms of foreign policy. Hence stuff like bush jr and all the wars.

[@djkb125]

I thought that was strange as well. Social and economic issues are also much more relevant to the lives of Americans. Siding with republicans mainly for foreign policy issues, especially since dems are pretty similar, seems like such an irrelevant thing to side with fascism over.

[@Veon1]

It's simple, their foreign policy appears to just revolve around the necessity of war with Iran. Which is what the Neocons were salivating over during the Bush years, but never got because of the Iraq quagmire and the Great Recession. Democrats, for all their foreign policy faults, don't seem that interested in an actual war with Iran. Trump flirted with the idea of it, but he is ultimately too much of a pussy to commit to a full blown war (DeSantis on the other hand....)

[@surferdude6258]

you did great! it was very entertaining, thanks for the content!

[@AVspectre]

Really loved this conversation. Someone sincerely trying to understand things and willingness to critically assess his values. Really agree with Vaush’s comments at the end. This was so much more interesting then a lot of the political streamer content going.

[@Hawkwood96]

I think that intentional bigotry and unintentional bigotry tend to have extremely similar electoral outcomes. At times like this, I remember a time when a middle-aged coworker of mine asked, "Why are black people so angry?" With regards to the George Floyd protests. She truly believed that Black Americans were overreacting and burning down cities. Luckily I showed her that the rioting was overblown by the media, and told her about red lining. She's been an unambiguously staunch soc-dem ever since (following a brief political metamorphosis). Most people don't think they're racist, nor do they want to be. This means that most people, through discourse, can be gently prodded over. Never neglect to speak to those in your life who disagree with you. A lot of people are more reasonable 1:1 than you'd suspect.

[@spartakos3178]

"Black people" didn't burn down shit... Rich Angry white communist college kids burned down black communities. Also... Rioting was not 'overblown' .... Financial damage dwarfing the worst hurricanes in record. ... Stores owned and operated by minorities. Dozens of murders, and sparked a crime wave that is wreaking havoc on minority communities.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

I feel like I'm in middle school again. It doesn't matter what's in your heart, it matters what happens. What you do is more important than what you think

[@anarchohelenism]

This guy just genuinely doesn’t seem to understand politics.

[@theman12833]

do you have any advice on how to understand politics and get better at debate in general? im verrrrry new to this and i want to be on vaush/rosewrist/destiny/xanderhal level

[@jatsko3113]

I'm surprised that at no point did Vaush ask them what they thought fascism was, because I'm not sure they had a solid working definition

[@centrallyintelligentagency]

@@theman12833 Try and read a decent amount. Also watch the content-that can help introduce things. However, be able to meaningfully and critically engage with it. Be ready to disagree but not deliberately contrarian. You know, it’s a long journey and I’ve only been on it a couple years, but reading and consuming all sorts of content has really broadened my horizons.

[@theman12833]

@@centrallyintelligentagency yes but what are some key books to read if there are some

[@centrallyintelligentagency]

@@theman12833 I don’t know about books. I have a particular disdain for theory because I think it’s a lot of BS. If you want books I’d suggest something like “A Very Short Introduction to Fascism” by Kevin Passmore. Short, very informative and well-made. The entire “A Very Short Introduction to” series does extremely well to introduce you to broad discipline-based thought (i.e., politics, philosophy, law, etc.). They’re foundational texts for me that have spurred further reading and research. To that end, use their reading/citation lists to look for articles and things which you may find interesting. You can probably access all this through your local library or university.

[@rcchampion8829]

What would it take for the GOP to do for him to vote the other side?

[@Gundamman]

I'm not going too hard on him. I think he is using vsush to sort through his own feelings, and I hope chat is not going at him hard

[@IWatchedTheWorldBurn]

Alternate title: Vaush helps confused man slowly realize he is in fact not Republican.

[@cctomcat321]

This was just a long, repetitive road of, "well, wait... _I'm_ not the bad guy... Right?"

[@shauavshahga9345]

If MTG was not a good representation of the GOP, why did the GOP elect her as a REPRESENTATIVE?

[@robinvik1]

I'm 10 minutes into the debate, is this entire thing just gonna be the Patrick wallet meme?

[@Crawver]

Frighteningly similar at points.

[@AntiMatterXD]

Nothing to apologize for. Having an in-depth debate with somebody that does it for a living would make anybody nervous, especially if you disagree with him on so much. You did fine! Nothing that you can't grow and learn from 😊

[@centrallyintelligentagency]

1:06:05 This is what I think a lot of people being mean to this guy missed. Good stuff Vaush.

[@betterthanrae8137]

there are people walking around that think there are still "moderate republicans" that blows my mind kinda.

[@broadcastbard]

That was nice. I hope the caller reflects on their beliefs.

[@DimaRakesah]

What would be the point of using euphemisms and dog whistles if not for what they actually mean?

[@wozzstream]

This guy legitimately doesn't know what a dog whistle is

[@soundslikemath860]

Man this is really hard to watch. It feels like a desperate last attempt to save your old ideals from their inevitable conclusion.

[@LimeyLassen]

Holy shiitake mushrooms, this convo is agonizing.

[@jidk6565]

I miss spy kids

[@LimeyLassen]

@Hope Eternal I'm fine with the stuttering, it's more of a content issue.

[@MsScarletwings]

Honestly it’s super palpable compared to the average irony poisoned troll that’s wasted vaush’s time

[@tearsintherain6311]

It’s a bit boring but it was refreshing, wouldn’t have watched any at all if it was a guy being a crypto fash

[@carter6456]

What a great convo, it’s so nice to hear a real person talk to vaush and ask genuine questions sometimes. He seems fairly intelligent and honest, I hope he’s inspired to look into some research and studies and history, and learn a lot. I think he’ll come around on a good amount of things after a bit of looking

[@brogan_live8537]

“My overseas policies are neo conservative” “So what do you want to happen overseas?” “Neo conservative stuff” … like… wars?

[@samhall7385]

This is why you dont hit your kids

[@renardleblanc5556]

@45:30 the line he is looking for is: "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence..." well, incompetence is not adequate to explain the current GoP. (Though, Democrats, I'm leaning heavily toward incompetence).

[@julienmarvin]

Sigh... Listening to this dude struggle with the notion that being comfortable with bigotry or hanging around bigots is itself a form of bigotry was majorly depressing. Honestly this is how most people think. My mostly black conservative mates and family don't see a problem with bigotry or bigots until it affects them personally. Never mind the idea that the ability to ignore and break bread with Nazis (for political gain) is a form of privalge in and of itself.

[@HeyLookItsTrevWay]

the first 3 minutes into this video, i lost more brain cells than i did when i took 2 tesla tablets at rusko

[@Ghee_Buttersnaps]

Peace love respect nacho fries

[@uBastianX]

This is like, uhm, so, uhm, excruciating. But how do I, like, know, uhm, objectively that it is?

[@ibringit987]

I think it's just good that his positions seem to be changing.

[@markd.s.8625]

its not changing yet but it does feel like hes on a precipice about it

[@Crawver]

@@markd.s.8625 It is though. He himself said he was further right wing until relatively recently. Now, given how he's struggling even more to justify his own beliefs even now, he's just going to keep slipping further and further away from his original starting point, which is good.

[@markk7082]

A very civil debate that’s no less frustrating, and not because of the callers stammering, but his ridiculous reasoning and unending charity and support for the fascist party he likes.

[@maxcormier7821]

holy shit this guy believed in nothing

[@raghavpatel720]

better than believing in fascism, he was very nervous. I would hope his party support would change because all he said was an imagined world where the Republican party is not maniacal but all that means to him is if they had more in common with Democrats.

[@dstayton]

To me it sounds like someone who inherited his politics from his parents but has only recently started actively considering his positions. He wants to believe his parent told him the correct party to vote for but is hitting the wall of having to deal with the reality of the Republican Party. I think this is a big stepping stone moment for him to move in the right direction. To hear your dark thoughts told back to you by another person is usually a huge reconsideration point for people.

[@axelotl86]

As a German, yeah, it’s happening again. Right now in the USA. 49:54

[@TheKnizzine]

The individual can just be ignorant but in mass and weaponized by the group it become malice.

[@younggod5230]

I just noticed, this whole "don't generalize the enitre party" point would be laughable in any other country. america is so poisend for this two party system, because in a normal, sane political landscape one could just ask "If you really dislike the far right positions, why don't you just leave the far right party?" but the reality for america is, THERE ONLY IS ONE PARTY. Conservatives mix up with fascists, there is nowhere to go for them. Two party system unironically makes me dizzy, makes me wanna throw up. And obviously ome party can be generalized, otherwise it wouldn't be a party. A party is there to generalize a bunch of members behind a front of political positions.

[@DrHotWarLove]

It was brave of Vaush to shrink himself down to microscopic size to argue with an actual amoeba.

[@lydiaspruhan6029]

He identifies as a Republican but can't say why or even mention what Republicans stand for. He says he's against immigration and welfare, but doesn't acknowledge their link to racism. He says welfare is "big government", but doesn't recognize that border patrol and immigration and customs enforcement are humongous undertakings with a huge infrastructure and workforce. How frustrating to have to fact-check, educate, and correct for over an hour, only to have all of it bounce off and slide away. He says he's Center Right. He says he's socially liberal. Does he know what any of this even means? Does he know what fascism means?

[@edithboozy1000]

TLDR: "Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like."

[@djkb125]

I felt like a bitch but there were so many times I said “omg, spit it out!” I’m sure the guy was nervous but boy was I glad I was able to play this at 1.25x.

[@edithboozy1000]

@@djkb125 I have very little tolerance for "like" people. And this guy pushed it to the limits. 😫

[@fl00fydragon]

This is a bit of the classic "I can't be evil, I am me after all"

[@kogasoldier9379]

What really sucks is both parties can be fascist at times (I'm looking at you Janet reno and the ESRB).

[@joyhaig1286]

I was on my run while listening. The caller was talking about Republicans better on spreading democracy via foreign policy, yet as you pointed out, it’s in fact the Democratic party in regards to Ukraine, etc. The caller still pushed Democrat’s we’re weak and my first thought was, oh he’s really talking about just Israel and you later in the back and forth just said, it’s Israel isn’t it… I immediately said (kinda loudly)exactly!… to the surprised faces of people near me😅… Love your channel and your insights ❤️

[@coastwolves]

it taking the dude two minutes and fifteen seconds to say "do you think conservatives agree with Ye on his antisemetic statements but refuse to say it out loud?" is painful.

[@sodamnclose9203]

Conservative cope

[@markd.s.8625]

literally

[@uncomfortabletruth3831]

Can I buy a syllabus, maybe something in coherence.

[@luismurillo5855]

So is this guy a conservative or just an enlightened centrist? I think his takes are bad, but to be fair he isn't one of the worst people that has came on Vaush's stream.

[@LotharOfTheHillPeople]

At about 1/3 the way in he explains that he's a Mitch McConnell fan

[@LotharOfTheHillPeople]

@@bilbobaggins9451 I used to live in Northern Idaho, so I've met a lot of them. They claim to be centrists or "constitutional conservatives" but then they'll be like "Oh Trump is just so brash, I can't stand his ego! But boy oh boy that Ted Cruz is something else huh!" Fascists thinking they're libertarians.

[@9OutOfBen]

What I don't understand about these socially liberal and "fiscal and foreign policy" conservatives is why they can't just be a Joe manchin democrat ...get the policies you want (or at least the sway on the policy) without supporting the growth of a fascist party. Not saying that's where I want the party to go. But I'd much prefer a democrat party being the main conservative party, and then a more left party being the second party

[@russellward4624]

His argument seems to be "yes the support Trump but they only do it because they have to" but he's missing the they're supporting Trump.

[@traviswettroth4391]

this was painful to listen to, Vaush really shouldnt debate random conservatives on the discord that have bad rhetorical skills. No hate on the guy even though I basically disagree with everyone of his points it just sucks to listen to this stuttery debate

[@DominionSorcerer]

Why shouldn't he? This guy has been responding to a lot of comments, based on them he walked away from the debate with a new perspective forcing him to re-consider his supposed political alignments. That's the point of these debates. If you debate ten guys like this and manage in some way to change the mind of one of them, that's a win.

[@centrallyintelligentagency]

@@DominionSorcerer Great take.

[@TheCountOfMommysCrisco]

WTF is up lately with Vaush interviewing/debating people who CAN'T FREAKING TALK?!? Please, man, start screening these people before you bring them on-stream.

[@josh-oo]

Dude, don't be mean just because they're nervous. That's just gonna make it worse.

[@communistpropagandist4608]

Its the interviewer's job to talk, its the interviewee's job to have a unique viewpoint and express themselves as best they can. If you want to interview real people and not exclusively talk to other media trained people then you'll need to accept a little stammer sometimes.

[@DGAMINGDE]

Starting to say "stop bringing people on, that can't talk" might lead to wild consequences. I have seen many people that spoke completely normal, that are made fun of on the internet and have felt it extremely for myself. Other people starting to gatekeed discussions for people that speak very confident, extremely easy to understand English can't be the solution. Like at all.

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

Jesus dude, he just has a stammer.

[@luismurillo5855]

Vaush has pretty much destroyed all the big name right wingers on KZbin willing to debate him (Sargon, Tim Pool, Hunter Actual Justice Warrior) to the point now where it's hard for him to find any professional right wing youtuber to debate (because they know what happens when they do), so the only ones that are willing to debate him anymore are random nobodies that aren't the best speakers. Big name professionals (Crowder, Shapiro, Jordan Peterson) won't debate him because they would in all likelihood would embarass themselves. So yeah he kinda has to take what he can he even get anymore, even if they're not the best speakers.

[@stuartsmith4369]

No, the good Republicans want to oppose fascism, just not if it is difficult or might cost them.

[@cutmasta-kun]

Here is a little side story from a german fella: BEFORE Hitler was promoted Councelor, he attempted a coup on the german government. He started a "Marsch auf den Reichstag" or something like that, his small party gathered along and they marched from munich in the direction of berlin. But the weimar republic wasn't as downed and Hitler didn't got enough power at that time. He was stopped already in Munich after just a few meters and he was put in prison to Landsberg am Lech. In this time he wrote "Mein Kampf" and radicalized all the way through, like a marinated chicken breast.

[@pash_4904]

I wish Vaush had taken the time at the start to have them outline their position more. I still have no idea what they’re trying to argue.

[@HappyFunTimeMedia]

This is a far cry from talking to Dylan but this was still a necessary conversation..

[@breadeater1194]

If your disapproval of party policy doesn't manifest in votes, then you support the policy. But the guy said he doesn't vote straight ticket GOP, so maybe he's alright.

[@benphillips2947]

I'm at 1.25% and homie STILL won't just spit it out.

[@Tarumarugan]

I clocked out in the first five seconds dude can barely finish a sentence. I’ll come back when I have more time.