This Mythic+ Pug Group Shows why Low Keys are a Complete Mess

[@sunderwire]

It feels like it’s harder to pug lower keys than 10s. The pug players in low keys are an affix in themself 😂

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Absolutely the case.

[@Frosti1338]

The german ß and ? are on the same key on the keyboard. So if he had capslock on it would turn ? into ß. Not sure why anyone would apologize for that but here we are.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Frosti1338 SORRY CAPS

[@beang7045]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Sorry not sorry ITS CAPS CAPS CAPS lets make a song.

[@PeterPan-cy7oy]

@@heythereguysitsMetro dumb ami with a little bit education u would know that

[@Saluuntv]

9:17 when I was editing this for my own channel, I figured out why the wait. He was using the Kiss of Death trinket, where if you don't jump before the buff expires it will stun you for 5 seconds. He was stunned basically. Edit: Maybe that's why he died in the intermission too.. maybe he got stunned mid flight or before taking off the mount

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

He got STUNNED and died to that omg!?

[@Saluuntv]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I'm just assuming so, I don't have confirmation for that, but in the clip with the lust he was for sure being stunned by the trinket. I imagine that trinket is more of a curse than a "kiss" for new players who typically don't use weakauras or addons to track something like this.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Saluuntv thats hilarious!

[@fireraid9173]

Most likely as he was out flying he didn't collect the orbs and was in the dark zone. The orbs refresh that buff unless you're in the city or onboard the dawnbreaker, and if it ticks to zero you instantly die. So that's pretty much what happened, he didn't collect the orbs and died because of it. It supports your theory of him not doing it on any difficulty at all as that's something you learn on normal even.

[@espionn]

​@@fireraid9173 thankyou for explaining the mechanic to us because we too have never done the dungeon before at all

[@damkina_ina]

4:55 in a 5 you don't need purge here - especially as resto mass cc and burn through For the debuff on the tank after - it's the debuff you get for being in the dark I think Limits where you can go before the first boss and in phase transition for final So the tank likely just jumped off

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I thought he might have jumped off too

[@majstealth]

that tank was basicly me 2-4 weeks ago, had been doing delves solo then 5mans because reasons, had complete 619 without touching m+. but i start at m0 and worked up to now 5, not just start there, because i didnt wanted to kill other peoples keys.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@majstealth good perspective on that. Respect for that. A lot of people just want to cut the queue.

[@dominick4820]

I started from heroics to learn the basic mechanics and worked my way up.

[@DietcokeHD1]

That dungeon is very confusing the first time going in. Also if your lvling up and do that dungeon on normal mode , the second boss can be killed at any time with little effort not teaching you the mech. This Dungeon requires you to learn it first over just winging it , hopefully that tank does better next time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh okay good point on the second boss being killable then. Didn't realize that.

[@Kevin97587]

@@heythereguysitsMetro People in normal and heroic dungeons will 99% of the time skip lieutenants and just zerg the boss. And then people 'learn' thats how you do it.. And then they enter mythic or mythic + and dont know anything because the game didnt teach or explain them..

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Kevin97587 Ya, that's a really bad thing to allow to be done wrong wow

[@rerere1569]

@@Kevin97587 yeah, very bad design on normal/heroic to be honest. They could've just blocked the boss somehow until all 3 is dead, so people at least aware of that

[@jonathanwynne6925]

Yeah pretty sure we need key levels like delve tiers so it'd be impossible to run a 5 without having run 0 > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 first.

[@BrightRavenofAcadia]

The tank didn't realize he needed to mount for the first boss. He jumped off because he thought that's what everyone else was doing. I don't know it for a fact, but I've seen it happen. edit: pretty sure the ticking debuff is for being in the darkness that's out of range.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, I thought was it too. Hard to tell.

[@ThomasBachler01]

isn't that the same debuff that you get while flying during the 3rd boss that you need the golden orbs for to reset?

[@dominick4820]

@@ThomasBachler01ya

[@kozstreamstv]

I've witnessed this so many times. I dread running low keys because of this or, i just always tank so I can at least do the right pulls. The challenge is people are afraid to ask for help because they get flamed or kicked. I agree the pally probably shouldn't have been there, but ultimately if they just said "hey follow us, come here, pull this 1 pack and the guy behind...etc" that key would've been smooth. However, the boss survivability is something else to learn. I feel bad for the pally cause he probably will experience this a few more times and either quit, or go play dps. As a main tank I try to help people if they are open to it, but i've also been told to F off by people with 500 IO telling me they know what to do and end up trying to faceroll a dungeon and the group disbands hahaha. The key squish + delves made 2-7 keys obsolete.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's hilarious

[@benji9465]

Its easy to feel bad for the paladin cause hes new clearly, but it also comes down to personal responsibility. He knows he doesn't know the dungeon but still went into a 5. At the end the day, io score is king.

[@GRSH53]

Agreed. I find it really odd for the tank to join a m+ 5 without knowing the dungeon though. Even running it as a dps in a normal or heroic just to see how other tanks run it would help. Joining a heroic as tank and just saying "first time here, can someone guide me" or something like that would make sense to me. I don't even see how this tank could have successfully completed this dungeon before if he plays like this. Metro's comment about people not understanding progression through mythic+ and just jumping into whatever key they can sounds like it would fit, it just feels wrong to actually play like that.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well that's why I said he lacks the "intelligence" to know what he doesn't know. He is obviously new to the whole game, where as if he had years under his belt he would remember how difficult tanking M+ can be, and have done some practice or research.

[@MikeyJ232]

“Player problem” is a common excuse that relieves Blizzard any blame for bad game design. How do you fix the problem that is players skipping low keys with Delves? Ideally, I think there should be some sort of shared m+ rating system so that people can see you’re a 3k player on an alt. There’s a big difference between one 590 tank that is an alt and one that is a new player.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@MikeyJ232 well we talked about that a ton last weekend in that video. I don't think it's fixable tbh. Delves are simply too easy to give any gear at all, let alone hero track gear. But if they have no gear who would even do them?

[@MikeyJ232]

I don’t mind carrying lower ilvl players in keys below like an 8 but 548 is wild. That’s not enough stamina to survive anything. You can go to the delve vendor and buy a full set of 580 for Undercoin if it’s an alt.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@MikeyJ232 ya 550 is a strange item level to be tbh. Idk what's up with that but you see he does have the ilvl to survive. Just also sucks at the game so that makes it hard.

[@Saluuntv]

I checked out the shaman later, he has timed a 10 in 560 lmao

[@justin5002]

@@Saluuntvrofl

[@Kirschbaum2000]

550ish ilvl is what u end up with, if u started a week ago and speed leveled in timewalking.

[@isslavik]

This also highlights the scarcity of tanks. A dps wouldn't have got invited without IO, but people are getting desperate out there.

[@kingtut8367]

Same with healers

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm I don't think that is represented here. This guy is 620, he likely was picked over other tanks because of that.

[@isslavik]

@@heythereguysitsMetro wasn't there a comment about his only key being a +2 SV?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@isslavik correct.

[@Slamdoxicalz]

This key looked glorious 10/10 wouldn't change a thing

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha

[@asdf198]

This is 100% on Blizzard. I feel bad for that tank, there is no bridge between delves/heroic dungeons and low M+ where people like this can learn. The tank may have even tried to prep in heroic, skipping lieutenants in the heroic variant of DB is pretty common. There are genuinely very few listngs below +5, it can be impossible to fill a "0", even for dungeons with mount rewards like SV/NW. I think the S4 M+ level squish was a pointless mistake, I have several friends (casual AotC guild) that just delve and don't M+ anymore even though they liked it prior.

[@darkmenace5878]

this is not really on blizzard, there are AI dungeon where the player can go into it alone and then learn the dungeon/mechanics at their own pace, its the players fault for ignoring the opportunities blizzard has given them. its apparent this player hasnt even done normal/heroic, he shouldnt be touching keys yet.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@asdf198 this one is 100 percent on the players here. But I can understand the want to blame blizzard to some degree elsewhere. But it will NEVER be 100 percent on them. The player should always be seeking information to make them a better player.

[@asdf198]

@@darkmenace5878 I addressed that, "there is no bridge between delves/heroic dungeons", this tank could've very well done heroic and follower dungeons, going straight to the boss is viable there. Nothing hurts in those dungeons, this is basically the lowest level content where things hurt, which is probably why the tank pulled 1 pack at a time. I'd like to hear from the tank.

[@ghosk]

I tried to tank +2 city of echoes twice and got stomped completely. 608 lvl bear. Then I watched videos and did a +0 learning group and we still wiped 4 times. There feels like a massive disconnect between being able to 1-button macro T8 delves and reactively use CDs and low keys where you get clapped if you aren't intimately familiar with all the mechs that will wipe your group--i.e. the alarm shrill bugs in CoE that you can't interrupt, but you have to stun. We can blame the player, sure, but is it good game design to expect that people have to learn a dungeon through external research rather than just playing the game?

[@kevinc8955]

@@ghoskDelves should be where you learn your class…BUT knowing your class doesn’t help you in mythic+ because due to the stupidity of design, you don’t need to just know your character, you need to know that specific dungeon down to pull level. The whole mythic+ system is broken to its core. They looked at Diablo 3 rifts and said “what if we do this in Wow”, but rifts were randomized layouts and affixes so you couldn’t memorize them and they were balanced around that idea. Instead we got classic wows problems. Known content, so everyone knows the comps that are most efficient and excludes everything else. Everyone expects skips and techs that exploit known issues with the content design. Content gets meta’ed and min/maxed to the point where all fun vanishes.

[@Blackfingers666]

The first time I did this dungeon was a +4. Luckily I had a great group and it was fun to learn that way but I think you make a good point about skipping progression and people not learning how to run dungeons properly. Especially if someone is new to WoW/MMOs so they don't understand that there's going to be crazy mechanics that you have to avoid. PS I just got my KZbin recap and you were the channel I watched the most this year. Thanks for making content, it's always good fun! 😊

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Thanks so much for the support!

[@GauloisesGER]

The "+" and "-" is actually relatively common on Eu wether to indicate if you agree / disagree or if you understood / missunderstood. Atleast in the pug groups I am attending I've seen it alot.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Why do you think that started

[@GauloisesGER]

@ I would imagine that it trickles down from the pugs that are somewhere around 12+ key levels. It’s effective communication and an easy overview for the one asking the question. The most common scenario is this: Tank links mdt route and everyone else in the group answers with a quick + or -. This way everyone can quickly and easily see everyone understood and there is no clutter in chat. Another scenario is this: Tank: “CDs?” Person A: + Person B: - Person C: + Person D: + Tank can make the decision to then either go for a bigger pull or let’s say instead of going for tredova in mists he could choose to do the last bit of trash first. Just some examples to give you an idea how it’s being used in EU

[@user-jy8hz5tm1u]

Yep you are spot on at 7:35. + for positive and - for negative

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha funny stuff!

[@stevenm22]

I had a shaman before a +7 GB comment on a hunter in the grp who was 610 ilvl being a carry. The Shaman died on the dragon knock back back before the stairs leading down to the last boss he said "see hunter is being carried," and dropped grp. We had 10 mins left at that point.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

that would have been a great one to record and submit!

[@ThomasBachler01]

But what did the overall dmg look like? Was he actually being carried or did he just wait for the first mistake to do that?

[@DanUpdegraff]

In Shadowlands I healed +15 and tanked +9. It was clear I needed to watch videos on all the dungeons and memorize the mechanics before stepping foot in them. I burned out and gave up on mythics as a result. (Switched to PvP.)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well you'd need to do research on pvp too. The way it works out in PVP is understanding comps, spells of other classes, and timings of CDs and how they work together. But in PVP, a lot doesn't change year over year, so you can learn that once and be good for a while. That's similar in PVE too actually. The dungeons will change, but once you learn everything in Blizzard's bag of tricks, you know it all, and then you just follow DBM or other addon's instructions. Like if you have seen a thing on the ground, and hear addons telling you to move, you know exactly what it does.

[@DanUpdegraff]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Agreed. My burn out came from having to repeatedly "go back to school" every expansion. It just wasn't fun after a while. Also, I always despised dungeons like the one in this video where its super easy to get lost. Reminds me of vanilla Deadmines. Just trying to find my way back to the Deadmines entrance portal after dying (without a map I might add) caused some PTSD my first few years in WoW. ;)

[@Whowhatwherewhyandhow]

@@heythereguysitsMetro This! Ive been saying this forever. WoW mechanics in m+ are easy for most people to understand. Its just whether or not people actually pay attention in the dungeons or not. Interrupt, dodge swirlies, dodge frontals, drop poop outside of group, kill ads. Thats 80% of the mechanics youll see 😂

[@ThomasBachler01]

@@DanUpdegraff have you ever tried to hit dungeons right away when the season starts? I find people are very patient and understand then and learning things together - its just that when you join a few weeks later then everybody has the expectation that you either already learned or did your homework to make up for what you missed

[@kevinc8955]

@@heythereguysitsMetroPvP you’re learning your character (what’s my basic burst rotation, how do I best use PvP talents, how to I get a melee off of me, etc), not learning every single dungeon pull and path. In PvP you feel like you’re improving because you are. Your time to react and which buttons you press when you get jumped by a rogue between 1 hour on a character and 100 hours is night and day. Sure there’s BG strats but you can learn them as you go and it’s not ruining anyone else’s fun if you’re not following it. Mythic+ you learn 1 dungeon and that’s all you’ve learned…that one dungeon (arguably only at that key level). All so you can get better gear and run a higher level of the same dungeon. Blizzard knows the learning curve is miserable too…it’s why they keep repeating the same m+ dungeon rotations instead of introducing new ones.

[@SammyBammy813]

Only people I've seen that don't have an issue with the current Delve/Mythic+ conflict are people that have fully geared Hero gear via Delves and expecting to run 7+ Keys - in other words - skipping progression of experience in dungeons and expecting gear/ilvl to be commensurate. Very well said

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@SammyBammy813 ya sadly it needs to be addressed.

[@JohnSmith-nr3sr]

Warrior tank here. I went from 0 to 2700 by pugging only.

[@Astira359]

+

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

K

[@mintx1720]

Paladin with double wings glyph is completely joever.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

What's that mean?

[@mintx1720]

@@heythereguysitsMetro The glyph makes your avenging wrath use the old legion appearance, thus removing the glow and destroys the aesthetics of the paladin class.

[@Ougagagoubou]

The +/- thing happens at times yes. Most often before keys where someone asks "anyone engi?" "anyone can open door (mists)?" type of situations. Nobody says anything, and then they start saying their minuses.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's funny

[@unsettled1821]

So the debuff for the tanks you get that by eating the line and surviving from it or flying too far from the boat that you're away from the light. I've seen it happen before

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Right, so what do you think happens here?

[@mangomariel]

This happens so often in the 4-8 range. Especially Necrotic wake is a problem. I can invite 4 melees who clearly outgears the content, with like 620 ivlv, so that we have good interrupts and dps. But still me as a mage end up with 30 interrupts and the melees are either zero or below 5. Also no matter how many times I say "pick up spear" "pick up orb" everyone just runs past it. What is weird tho is that it seems they know mechanics, and the meta route, and know how to dps. Just have no idea how to use kicks, stuns, or the items.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, sadly a lot of players are in that range for a reason.

[@Aegea291]

I think this season more than ever has highlighted how crucial having a competent tank is to the success of a key. And it’s kinda blizzards fault imo for not highlighting difficult packs and bosses in m0.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, it certainly has.

[@matrix255]

I'm currently 2800 io on my pally and 2600 with my priest, both are healers. I haven't been playing with my pally that much because he is 632 ilvl and I haven't had the will to keep pugging 12s. So mostly what I been doing is farming crests on my priest, she still needs the pink ones runed something the ones that drop at 4-7. Anyway I have encounter people like this tank. A few warriors with "decent" rating something like 2k you would think at least they have a basic idea of what they're doing but my god they don't. Low rating DHs don't know what to do to live and it feels like they're made of literally paper. DKs are the best low key pug tanks imo. Druids are middle of the pack.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, no shortage of players like this out there!

[@DaikoLP]

love your work!! keep it up 🎉

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@DaikoLP thanks!

[@Baggiolyful]

I’ve noticed when you reach +10 generally people know the dungeons tactics but before then it’s a slog finding a good Group.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, its often common that low keys are just harder than high keys for that reason.

[@kizz5012]

I am a delve mole. I love delves because I go at my own pace and don't have to deal with toxic people. If I screw up in a delve and die it's just me so I can try again without anyone yelling at me for being an idiot. I also run delves with friends on the weekends which make it more fun. Only problem is, my ret pally is now 614 item lvl and I have hit a wall on getting gear but I'm terrified to try mythic keys because I have no idea what I am doing. I got brave and tried a couple mythic 0 ones to just get an idea and watch streams like yours but I am no where near ready to take on any keys and I'm scared of even +2 keys because I don't want be a fool and ruin it for the other 4 players. I wish Blizz would expand on delves so I can continue to be a delve mole or at least give us something like the follower dungeons but for mythic 0 keys so we can practice and learn our roles before actually doing it with other people. I can watch videos about what to do but I'm the kind of person that doesn't really get it until I actually do it myself.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@kizz5012 I would really encourage you to just get in there and try some low keys. As you see, this is about as bad as any key can go and it's honestly not a problem. Unless you are a tank and don't even know the basics, you won't be failing low keys. And if you have any questions at all, let me know.

[@ThomasBachler01]

What level of delves are you doing? Is it only level 8 or are you doing higher delves too?

[@dannyd806]

Naah! Don’t be scared. The only way to learn is to get in there and do it. As a dps you have way less pressure, just follow the tank and hit things. I mean, Watch a guide on the dungeon first so you know mechanics, and just stick to the +2 level until you’re comfortable. You’ll need +8’s if you wanna upgrade that gear any further, hiding from keys won’t help.

[@kizz5012]

@@ThomasBachler01 Yeah, I'm doing the top level delves because I love a challenge even though the rewards don't increase beyond an 8 bountiful. The only upgrading I can do is the 2 runes from each one to save up for an upgrade or wait for the weekly vault and hope it doesn't contain duplicates of what I already have.

[@kizz5012]

@@dannyd806 I'm trying to not be scared of them. I just need thicker skin. I did a +2 and had a shaman dps yell at me at the end for not interrupting enough. Honestly I wish the shaman would have stuck around for a minute and just told what to interrupt so I know for the next time. I was trying to interrupt ones that I knew from watching streams like OneAzeroth but it would already be interrupted before I could hit my button so I was just trying to interrupt anything I could and still got yelled at. Haha

[@eysteinnkristinsson8911]

As a healer working on my 8's, (haven't had a lot of time to play this season and only started WoW in DF s4), I spend a lot of time in 4's and 5's just to practice. The messier it gets, the more practice I get.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You are honestly just wasting your time. You will learn a lot more just doing keys at your progression level. The easier tuning on the lower key will allow you to make mistakes and not fail to them which may enforce bad behavior.

[@MrVaeron]

Around 584 is kinda what you have after buying the Renown stuff, getting the weekly Veteran and Champion from the Chests and maybe crafting an Item via the Heroic Crest from the Story-Mode questline. The problem is, my Shaman did the whole experience. All M0 in the first week, than brutally climbing the way up, while gearing with Raid, Delve Vault, Crafting and M+ to reach KSH and 2,8k. We did 10s for the Vault that lasted 2 hours were we progressed on Bosses like Skarmorag and Stitchflesh for an hour to figure out how to kill them. And my MW got 618 from doing nothing but delves, Timetraveling, crafting a single full normal NP and 4/8 skipped Heroic Raid with the Main squad. Im overgeared but honestly not on the skill level as on my shaman, were i easily did 99% logs and we can boost 2 people in ++10. I have problems in 8-9 M+, especially going from a full range caster healer to a almost full rotational Melee Healer in whats prob. the most healing intense Season since a long And i totally see how people, that dont know a shit about higher M+ fail when doing kinda the same and skipping the overall learning curve, by outgearing M+- The problem is, that this was the case in every other expansion, but those people were just stuck in the 2-12 range, due to there being more keys and especially getting confronted earlier with Fortified and Tyrannical and just die when doing mistakes and not getting up there. Now, even on my lowskilled at im kinda carriying people in +7+8 that somehow dont belong there. Hell, i still have +8 keys were Ele shaman have less kicks than me, which is insane, since they dont have to do anything but stick on a caster, funnel and kick...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well no, this is a new issue. There has never been a system that gives you hero track gear for very easy solo content like delves. It's tricking players into doing strange things all around.

[@kevinc8955]

@@heythereguysitsMetroyou have raider IO as a filter for people who shouldn’t be in those keys. Your problem is a lack of tank’s and healers and having to accept anything in those roles…and too bad. Maybe if your trash-AF mythic+ community werent so awful to tanks and healers, you all wouldn’t have a shortage…eh?

[@_AriseChicken]

Yeah +2 through +6 is easily an ELO hell in itself. With that said though its still entirely possible when you properly vet your team.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Right, obviously all it might take is a group to just have done the dungeon once to triple upgrade your way outta there.

[@rjcoey]

The point about Delves cutting off the bottom end of M+ has been exactly my experience since this is my first expansion really playing any end game content, week 1 got a bunch of hero track gear and then stagnated horribly as I didn't have the experience to tank anything above a 5, spent the last few weeks building back up slowly but my gear has pretty much entirely stagnated and I'm only now getting to the point where I can do the content that gives me upgrades

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, well no shame in that. Its only an issue if you feel entitled to the best gear in the game like some of these people!

[@Gleobrew]

ive said this before, the m+ level squish is really bad for low keys. youd almost never have someone going into a 14-15 last xpac without knowing atleast a littlebit what theyre doing. but now that that is a 5 you have alot of people who might as well be playing with their monitor turned off. add to that that alot of people in these lower keys inv off of ilvl and not IO score. its a nightmare

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's actually the other way around, if you can believe that. We have a lot of videos of people doing 13 and higher without any clue last expansion. What may be missed here about this is simply that this guy has never actually done the dungeon. That's more on delves than anything else. The reason the previous version was worse because the keys were so numerically easy you could stand in mechanics and not die to them for many key levels. So for example we have a video where a tank gets eaten on narraxes on purpose in nelths lair and then says he needs to do that. This is a result of doing that dungeon many times, and surviving the mechanic many times, making him think he is doing it right. Now you can't do that past maybe a two. Before you could do the dungeon on like 12 different levels and still be failing those kinds of mechanics.

[@ChaoticCreed]

Swapped to shaman for mythic progression last. I noticed this situation was more prevalent than my other characters during gearing. Didn’t see an improvement in player pool till I was back to grinding gilded crest. The variance of player skill level in 4-7s is crazy right now.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ChaoticCreed ya it's absolutely insane how players just haven't learned the basics.

[@darkmenace5878]

thats insane to even go into a key of any level without even touching at least normal or even npc dungeons to learn it before you go into it. Blizzard gives players the opportunity to literally learn with AI and able to pull the dungeon at their own pace and people ignore it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@darkmenace5878 ya frustrating really.

[@inallthechaos2774]

To be fair, if you don't rush in with the 'hurry hurry hurry' crowd at the beginning of the expansion, you kind of miss the opportunity for those dungeons to be learning experience. You end up waiting ages for the queue to pop, and then someone that's massively overgeared gets matched to the party like 90% of the time and kill things so fast you don't really get a chance to see how the encounter plays out when you're scaled for it.

[@kevinc8955]

Follower dungeons don’t kill you if you miss a kick. They don’t have affixes. They don’t have timers or expect you to tech or skip pulls. It’s just not the same thing at all. Mythic+ should have been randomized dungeon layouts similar to torghast with randomized affixes. They wanted Diablo 3 Rift system in Wow…so make it. Having the same dungeons we’ve seen already just turns those dungeons into classic wow (metaed and minmaxed to death).

[@darkmenace5878]

@@kevinc8955 it should be implied that most content that come after follower dungeons are going to hit harder and the mobs are going to have more health thats the entire idea of this system. it gets harder, if you cant learn at a decent difficulty or even AI given to you by the game itself then thats on you. you failed to learn mechanics when you could have done it solo, yes you can ignore the mechs but should you? would it be in your best interest to actively ignore playing the game so that when you join other groups you know nothing? how selfish is that?

[@inallthechaos2774]

11:25 a lot of DPS and healers just reap the benefits of more serious tanks learning everything about the dungeon and basically taking them on a step by step guided tour from encounter to encounter, I think. I've been guilty of this myself in some expansions. They may well have never been in a group where the mini-bosses had been missed to find out the consequences of that.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Right ya that's why this is so offensive. You have guys telling the tank he is doing it wrong by telling him the wrong thing to do instead lol...

[@Invhytas]

7:44 yes, on EU servers many people use + and - for agree/yes and disagree/no

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

What about something like √

[@kevinc8955]

If delves are cutting off the low end of keys, just scale the m+ rewards up. Doing a +4 should get you a heroic 610 piece of gear. Take all the awful scaling disparity between 10 and 12 and spread it over the previous keys evenly so it feels incrementally harder between keys instead of warm shower to ice cold shower between 10->12.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That may work but then you'd have the vault at a weird time or lots of keys that aren't giving new rewards.

[@Ragevizion]

Build your own groups, never double up on classes, and use m+ scores to help ensure you're picking someone who should have experience in the keys. For a 7 or above i only accept people who have a 2k score or better. There's no shortage of people that sign up for your keys. They don't always go well, but you'll drastically minimize chances that the key fails

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Ragevizion problem is in low keys many people don't have much score because no one takes the time to farm all the dungeons.

[@crispybaconmatters7160]

The Debuff means he's gone WAY too far OOR. Its the same one you get, I believe, on the last boss of the dungeon when you aren't near "the light" flying from the ship to the ground.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Sure, but WHY does he have the debuff was my question mostly.

[@crispybaconmatters7160]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Honestly not sure. Best guess is he has no clue wtf he is suppose to do on the boss, or in the dungeon at all.

[@loganboyd10]

I have played a lot less after peaking at 3k in Dragonflight and immediately lost interest in pushing after the squish. Not saying it’s a causation but there was a noticeable correlation for me. I used to spam keys on alts and farm portals, now the failure rate it way higher than my interest level in pugging

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, keys are just harder. It shouldn't mean quitting, it might mean ending up at a lower level relative to where you expected to be though for sure.

[@Draghful]

There's something really wrong with the current key system / gear progression. My friends and I were trying to do some easy quick 10s for our alts on the weekend and holy smokes, those keys are still haunting me. For example, we were running a SV 10 and explicitly invited a mage and a shaman to have curse dispels. After healing through the first pull with BL and literally every single curse there was (as a disc), I said "might want to use your curse dispels guys". Which only was replied to with and I quote: "?". After the dungeon was over, I checked details. Not a single decurse was made that day by the shaman and the mage. It's a 10 and people don't even KNOW their toolkit. It's one thing just not pressing it.. but not even knowing that it exists is just wild to me. Idk what happened (probably gear/power creep) but the amount of people doing 10s now, who have literally no idea what they're doing and tanks doing those super spicey MDI pulls, they've seen on stream and just getting utterly destroyed by the pull....I can't even put words to it. After that, we tried to do it in 11s, hoping to get better results... Long story short - we decided to do our weekly vault keys in 12s now because, at this point, our +12 runs just feel way smoother than any run we've done on 10/11 this weekend. It's flabbergasting. I thought Blizzard implemented the key level squish for exactly this reason but it seems it has missed the mark. Maybe we need to go from the key to the delve system, so nobody can queue up for a dawn 10, when he hasn't already timed a dawn 9. Idk, I'd hate it to have to play all keys on 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 for the first week of each season but it'd still be better than what we have now. I'm not even blaming the players. Everybody starts somewhere but the "bread crumbs" as you've described it, just are off. Doing T8 Delves is like leveling. You just scarcely look at your main monitor with WoW on it and pressing a few buttons, while watching some show/video on your second monitor. After having done that, you're incentivized to go for +8s, because you already are full champ geared with a few heroic items. Those 8s will absolutely destroy you, when you have no idea about trash/boss mechanics. The issue is that idk how to properly fix this now, that Delves have been introduced with their current reward structure. You'd either have to severly nerf Delve loot (which I'm not a fan of because... just let people have their gear honestly. If they hate raiding and M+, Delves are their only options and I don't see the benefit of just gear gate them). Or you could separate the Delve loot from M+ and raiding (also not a fan of that for obvious reasons) Or you'd need to introduce the Delve "key level" system as described above, so someone who has never done a Grim 5 can't queue up for a Grim 6 or higher.

[@MrVaeron]

This does not work. Cause with 8 dungeons in the pool, you may not see the key you need in a long time. It also sucks, when certain dungeons are badly tuned, like NW, SV or GB. I was already KSM before our premade got an Ara key at all. i was literally +2 Ara and ~+8 on every other dungeon and we were often stuck with 3-4 NW, since nobody wanted to play that shitty third boss. Also, just do the math. with 10 key level for every dungeon, you would have to time ~80 dungeons until all portals or KSH which is bullshit. I played reguarly since launch and i maybe have 80 completed dungeons at all, of which about 50 are in the +10-11 range.

[@Draghful]

​@@MrVaeron Not sure why it would not work? I'm talking about revamping the key system to the delve system, so keys wouldn't exist at all, so there also wouldn't be any RNG involved with key aquisition. For the second part, you're correct. I usually also don't play anything in the 2-6 range at all and I already stated in my initial comment that I'd HATE to run all 2-6 until I could get into somewhat proper keys. Maybe you could put it into brackets? Like.. have a bracket for key levels before every major breakpoint (where a new affix gets added). Would be something like 1. 0-3 2. 4-6 3. 7-9 4. 10-11 5. 12+ And after 12, you'd stop using that brackets and every dungeon needs to be completed in time on the previous level. If you completed a key at any given bracket, you can queue for the next highest bracket. That'd reduce the dungeons you need to complete by theoretically about 66%, bringing it down to roughly 24. And realistically speaking, you'd have to play WAY less keys this way because while yes, pushing to whatever your skill level is may take a bit longer, the actual pushing higher keys part gets drastically shortened because all the homework keys would cease to exist. Idk mate. I just think that something needs to change because the current player pool doing +10s absolutely doesn't belong there at all. If you can't dispel curses as a mage/shaman and you don't even know that you can, then you don't belong in a 10. Period. In fact, playing anything below 12s felt absolutely horrible recently.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya idk what the solution is honestly but it's a mess. The key squish has helped though in the lower keys. People just skip the learning as much as they possibly can.

[@ThomasBachler01]

@@Draghful You should have a way around that though - as you have with the ilvl requirement for M0. If I am not forced to do the lowest level content artificially if I go in with a premade and this helps overall the pug system, then that is great. But if I have to play +2 on every key and then +3 and so on, then I will most likely quit then and there.

[@Draghful]

@@ThomasBachler01 Yeah I agree with that and I was thinking about some kind of system that would make premades be able to ignore these restrictions but I couldn't come up with a good way of dealing with this while writing my comment.

[@MethielVerd]

This is a perfect example of why i tell my brother he needs to un 2's instead of higher keys (which would get him ilvl upgrades) he has been gone from wow since the end of BFA and never really did any type of end-game content anyways but he feels that his gear is what is holding him back. he plays a fire mage and does reliably 300k dps overall in the dungeons i have taken him into. it pains me that he thinks the gear is his problem when its in fact his ability to play his character.. his reasons for low dps are "things die too fast for him to use his CD's properly" Finally took him into a key with my main (arcane mage that im terrible at) iwas my key and i dropped to an 8 for him to see what it was like in a "normal" key (his words) and while i still did ~1m dps his was once again at 300k and he just said it was my fault for killing things too fast for him. Took him to a normal raid with my guild and showed him logs and his response after i used the "compare" defaults on warcraftlogs (=/- 10s kill time, +/- 2 people for raid side, =/-2 ilvl for same spec) and shoed him that those people who were doing far better were getting 30-40 more casts off for the same duration of the same fights and he just kinda went mhm yea but my haste isnt that great so their gear is just that much better. TLDR: Bad people will find any way to blame everything but themselves for their problems without learning anything in the process I think the best fix is to have some sort of hybrid system for mythic+ content. have keys 2-5 use the current existing group finder system, meaning it doesnt matter how many people you have, you can fill a group out using the system. and then once you finish each dungeon at the "5" difficulty open up a new group finder under the create your own system that is specifically designed ONLY for M+ content at 6+. it sounds like an extreme idea but i think that it may be the best option because there is such a large gap in the skillbase of players. just going off of raiderio mythic+ rating cutoffs 50% of people who have stepped into M+ never even hit 1320 score (which is all dungeons ran at a +2 for US/OCE) something needs to be done and sadly this is not something the community can fix because of the way it is currently designed

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm ya a lot of conflicting statements here especially given the context of the video, but at the end of the day, I can say I do disagree that this is an issue the community CAN fix by simply being more aware of which progression level they belong at, what requirements are present for it, and by respecting those around them.

[@ammertos1517]

I play casually lately. Got my hunter at 632 and all 12s and no ambition to go higher. Wanted to play my Frost DK now. It's at 615 and I have to do 5-7s since you won't be invited. Often I have to play tank to get a group. But you're right, the amount of players, this far into the season, who have no idea how the dungeons work, is mind boggling.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

All 12s is legit! Nothing to call casual. I'm sure however you managed to get your hunter into groups, the DK can do the same. I would always recommend just doing your own key until you hit a progression plateau.

[@greegeree]

Man, my main is 617. I thought I was casual. My guildies on the progression team are in that 624-636 range and I see them as closer to hardcore

[@ammertos1517]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Did you ever try to make a group for a 12 and up with a non meta class? That will take forever and mostly just under qualified players apply. I often watch your videos but not your streams. Do you make your own groups from scratch as a DPS DK sometimes? I would be very interested in the fail rates of these groups. I got my 12s done with friends. No one invites any hunter spec to +12 and up unless they know you. And to be honest, I wouldn't either. I'm done with the season since gearing 619 to 630+ just takes to long. My idea would be that every week from the start a key drops 2 more crests, 12,14,15,16 etc until 24 per run

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ammertos1517 I don't ever do my own key, but I am constantly in groups like that, with people who just list their own key. I admit that a 13 and a 12 are very different right now though for sure. Played with PLENTY of hunters recently though for sure. I ran 13 keys this week, and 6 had hunters!

[@timhundhausen1386]

the Paladin is German. That weird letter after alright is an ess-zett (a German special character that's on the same key as the question mark on German keyboard setting)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Is it important that he is German or just a stray observation? Is it maybe not legal to learn the dungeons there or something?

[@timhundhausen1386]

@heythereguysitsMetro just a stray observation in case people wondered if our guy just randomly wrote a beta in chat

[@ThomasBachler01]

@@heythereguysitsMetro We have been prohibited from learning any kind of fighting related tactics since we went a little bit overboard the last time we did that. Luckily CAPS IS STILL ALLOWED.

[@Zka77-e1f]

2:00 wait, you can pull these 2 mobs separately? :D

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha seems so!

[@supmotto]

the pally tank flew way too far from the boat you can see him on the minimap.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Where did he go though?

[@WritesFantasy]

Haha. Yeah... That's me. I have a 9 key, but don't really want to do it until I have more practice in 8s.actually am pretty alarmed at how easy it has been to jump so high so fast. I've done SV 3 times. Failed 2. Success 5. Then jumped into my own 8 SV, zero confidence. Somehow managed to time it. But I consider only three runs in the dungeon as not enough practice for a real key. (to me that's a 10)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@WritesFantasy ya just get to ten asap

[@trancer03]

This is like half the dungeons on low keys. This is because of blizzard not letting people learn the dungeons at the right difficulty at the right time. They are really just doing the dungeons based on their item level, not based on their knowledge and skill. And we can't even blame them for doing so. In pretty much every game that is what people do. They want to keep progressing their character. So 5-8 keys are suffering from people that want crests that have no business being there because they are clueless about the mechanics. And it's usually most noticable at bosses with mechanics. In some dungeons and this is the worst part of it. This is the most noticable when you reach those bosses that are often the final boss of the dungeon. In dungeons like City of Threads (knowing when to stack and not stack), Ara-kara (the singularity pull mechanic with the puddles), Stone Vault 2 bosses (the duo bosses with the flame vents etc, people killing the little adds on the second boss all at once insta wiping the group , the smash edna does and the debuff being dispelled at the wrong time), grim batol (the second boss the adds exploding by reaching their target, the last boss adss and tentacles and gathering), dawnbreaker (flying to the mini bosses and how blizzard did zero effort at showing where to land), i can go on but after a long time in low keys you start to see the same mistakes happen over and over and over. And it's mostly because they never learned how to do it. If you want to see this for yourself, make a tank or healer, get average gear (so like 610 from delve and a few weekly delve vaults), play average, don't make your own keys but join groups on group finder without being picky about their m+ score. Go straight for 6's and 7's and 8's. Enjoy the show lol.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

We absolutely can blame the players for this one.

[@trancer03]

@heythereguysitsMetro It depends what your goal is. If you want to make mythic+ accesable and enjoyable for as many players as possible, Blizzard should know their player base by now. It becomes most obvious when you see how much focus they are putting on making mythic raids that by the way almost nobody plays anymore. While most people entering mythic+ are in it for the gear progression and if Blizzard attempted to teach these people mechanics and their class better (probably would have to make it a forced tutorial like thing) we probably would all have a more enjoyable experience not having to play with clueless people. If things remain the way they are and people can just jump straight into 7s and 8s we are going to continue to see so many disbands because of failed boss mechanics In games with matchmaking. The high mmr players get matched with other high mmr players. In WOW, anyone can make group finder groups. I myself run into these groups that are grinding gilded crests for mythic raid because this current mythic raid is apparently impossible hard. And what happens? I get these people running and upgrading my key that i have no right to get upgraded, simply because they want to grind gilded crests, i don't really deserve to be carried by them, they come in with their 635 gear. And this gives me fake m+ score. Especially if you host a +10 mists or something like that. You basically get people boosting you. And that even ruins the ability to trust m+ score.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

blizzard really needs to rework the keystone system. it cant be that i have to check raider io frist and inspect other players. i know 1-7 keys are usless gear wise but its really a pain to play even up to +10.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

This video shows why its CLEARLY a player problem, so idk what you would want to see them change honestly.

[@Vis_Electra]

The pain will continue all the way into +12 (and I suspect even 13 and higher, I just couldn't tell you cuz I lack the first hand experience). What would you have Blizzard do? Its not Blizzards fault the majority of WoW players are retarded. Sure, you can exclude them from the game, but then support for the game dries up as its not profitable anymore. (look what happened to SWTOR if you don't believe me)

[@scooter9537]

@@heythereguysitsMetro that blizzard needs to actually lead the players in a constructive way, this was nowhere nearly as bad of a problem in DF players didnt suddenly just start sucking now how the system is set up this expac is fucked that is on blizzard.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@scooter9537 it was a bigger problem than it is now in dragonflight for sure in my eyes. The changes to the game have alleviated this issue heavily between just taking those players out of the system via delves, and with lower keys being harder in general forcing people to fail like this.

[@VDHmain]

Before I tank a key for the first time I watch a 10-minute video on it to learn a basic route. To me, it feels like major disrespect not to do so as it saves more time in a single dungeon than it takes to watch. The time you waste for others is multiplied by 4; if you waste 10 minutes from not knowing where to go, you waste 10 minutes x 4 for the other players, so you wasted a total of 50 minutes. It's just rude.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@VDHmain ya I would agree if this is the output for sure. If you don't know anything you need to do some research. The problem is like I mentioned in the video though. The player is not intelligent enough to know how poorly prepared they are.

[@oldmanbanjo]

The best evidence I've ever encountered of Mythic+ players just REFUSING to learn the game... I once timed a city of Threads +8 with a 620 ilvl ele shaman. I said to my buddy who was also in the group "man what was with his crappy DPS?" Checked details. Dude was spamming lighting bolt and earthquake the entire dungeon. Just those two spells, even on bosses. Guy had 2.5k rating....

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's always crazy how easy it seems to be to get carried as a DPS.

[@Rune__]

I am so baffled by these players. I watched several videos on each dungeon before even attempting them on Mythic 2/3 😂 So i knew everything, mobs abilities, pathing, what to dispel, what to soothe. So many players just YOLO into these dungeons 😅

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, not intelligent enough to know they aren't prepared sadly.

[@Rune__]

@ By the way. I am one of the players who have loved delves this expansion. I usually stop playing WoW like a month into an expansion. But delves gave me such a high ilvl, that i felt the need to go try Mythic+ for the very first time. I did my first one 3 weeks ago and it was Grim Batol at level 3 key, i had ilvl 620 from Delves, crafted gear and a bit heroic raid. I was so overgeared, but holy damn did i need my gear to save the keys from depletion. I am a Resto Druid btw. I completed everything on 3 then 4 then 6 then 8. I now have Grim Batol completed on 10 SoB and Ara-Kara on 8 And all the rest on 9. My goal is to do everything on key 10 this week. I am now 630,75 ilvl And last note, healing a 8 key to farm crest, is so much easier than when i healed a 5/6 key, due to the skill increase from the players in my group 🙆🏼‍♀️ I have 71 keys completed in time and 4 depleted keys. Ara-Kara key 5 Ara-Kara key 8 Ara-Kara key 8 Grim-Batol key 10 I hate Ara-Kara last boss 😂

[@Rune__]

I have no guild btw, i only do pugs 🙆🏼‍♀️

[@jurgenbuntinx1]

They should put a lock on keys, that if you havent completed a +5 you cant go into a +6 etc...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Don't think that works with the current keystone system.

[@Yugelol]

Just a small thing + is just common in EU cuz everyone speaks differetn languages and some use cyrillic (russian letters) its easier to just use + since everyone knows what it means, the EU communication meta is reallly weird Oh yeah, sanguino is essentially our Ragnaros

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

that's funny, thanks for the info!

[@BarrettRTS]

There should be an account-wide unlock for M+ dungeons by doing the M0 version first. I've done M0s with newer players a bunch and they're great learning tools for them. Spending over an hour learning Ara'Kara is absolutely where some people need to be before they progress into timed content. It would be mildly inconvenient for veteran players, but the benefits to everyone below them would be huge.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Sadly no, the zeros are just too easy. Players simply need to be more self aware. If they require extra learning, they need to seek it.

[@BarrettRTS]

@@heythereguysitsMetro If you think 0s are too easy, then you clearly haven't played with the average WoW player in a long time.

[@ThomasBachler01]

@@BarrettRTS 0s are too easy. Its not really intuitive in an M0 if the reason your health suddenly dropped is due to an AoE event or you stood in a frontal for some players. For the players that need to learn the most death is the best teacher in the current way the game works.

[@BarrettRTS]

@@ThomasBachler01 So you're saying it's too easy, but then the reasoning is people can't work out what is killing them? That doesn't make any sense.

[@ThomasBachler01]

@@BarrettRTS When someone says that "the reason your health droped" then that means you didn't die - otherwise they would say "the reason you died". The whole point is that if you lose 50% of your health, while you noticed that you took some dmg - you are less likely to engage with the reason why and more likely to assume that that is just "normal". When you die you have a higher chance of engaging with the reason why you died. Does that make more sense now?

[@Massive-rat-hypocrite]

The way I know the pal tank is new is he still has unsheath weapon keybound. That’s prime real estate.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha didnt even notice that

[@Evilskoening123]

I still have that and i'm 20 years deep into wow :(

[@Telados]

I need that keybind for immersion

[@neriaksoul]

i bound sheet/unsheet! its important! and i got 2.6k rio! ,p

[@isslavik]

Z is an awkward key to press to be fair. I rather press T and G than reach for Z.

[@nathkin3933]

Invite based on IO not Gear score, works out better most always

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly for low keys there isn't a lot of people doing them with any score.

[@nathkin3933]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Good point

[@philburmeister3427]

I guess the + for affirmation and the - for negative is a european thing then. Never thought about it

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Certainly never saw that here, or in any proper written language.

[@brandonwells4772]

its not just low keys, its keys that dont offer anything. 4, 7, 8 and 10 are really the only ones you might have a good level of success. most people still doing sub 4, 5,6, and 9s are people who are struggling to get IO. when i have a 6 key on my alt and im tempted to just downgrade it twice and try to 3 chest a 4 to get to 7. certain keys are just worthless and they take forever to fill.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed. But it's mostly low keys obviously.

[@Fatespinner101]

I have been working my way up mythic+ a healer by starting at +2 and doing every dungeon in the pool at the level then working my way up the plus. I am currently at +5. My big issue is not players with low DPS or accidently pulling mobs but rather not know their kits or the dungeons mechanics. Delves gear should like PVP. I feel delve gear should be higher Ilevel for delves and outdoor content and lower for dungeons and raids. People would have a reason to run the lower-level dugongs for gear again. I like delves but I feel they should be an on ramp for player to learn their kits or a solo content feature. Either way I will keep laughing at the dungeons I record as I make my way to +10’s as a holy priest, I know I am not perfect too that is why I record my dungeons to learn from what I did wrong.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya delves really messed up the low keys. Mythic zeros are the true losers here. They tried to make them mean something and they just totally don't

[@nazupwnsnco]

Why don't you have a door?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

?

[@Ougagagoubou]

Tank's issue was clearly being clueless about game having stepping stones for dungeons. Anyone's going to fail by blindly doing their first Dawn in m+. Despite last boss being easy for tanks, you have to at least know about the flying between part. He'd have just jumped to his death again had they made it that far.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya that last boss would have been funny!

[@Massive-rat-hypocrite]

2nd comment. I bet the healer is also doing a zero to hero content thing. At this point of a season seems like it’s half people on alts making videos and half clown robot players.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm maybe!

[@Saluuntv]

I'm not sure, he has 4 timed 10's already some where he had 560 ilvl still.. but maybe he got boosted or not, who knows.

[@maartenneppelenbroek]

Playing M+ for the loot has always been a bad idea. Get good first, then loot will follow. Edit: Sub 550 is nuts for a 5, just started my Vengeance and did M0 with sub 550. Shit was harder to tank than +12 with my pally, no cap. You would have had fun if I had a recording of my +0 GB... Yes, it's a European thing to say +. If they disagree, the operative words are "noob tank" and they're gone :P After watching the video, I have to conclude that the Resto Shaman's ilvl wasn't the problem.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya ilvl not in play here. Just bad haha

[@maartenneppelenbroek]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Not exactly what I mean, if you were tanking that on an alt (perhaps we'll ever see the day :P) it would have been fine.

[@Rattja]

This resto shaman is kinda pumping though. I mean, he is doing the amount of healing he needs to for this key, and basically the same as most healers I see with way higher gear do at this level. So I don't actually think he was looking for a carry, he seems to hold his own to me. I would never have expected a 550 to pull those numbers, and with a slightly better tank they would have timed this easily I think. Also don't think a higher geared healer could have saved this run. That choice of pulling the 2nd boss was an odd one though, but so is not getting any of the free upgrades to be higher than 550 as well, so I don't know. Knows how to heal at least.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya he isn't holding anyone back at that item level. Was mostly a joke from last week's video.

[@GukleFlamebeard]

Instead of nerf Augmentation, they decide to fuck everybody and Augmentation is still the mandatory for pushing high keys. The cast/stun change is such a failure. It fucked up pug so bad.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm not sure I agree with any of that.

[@artavian2459]

I think to solve this problem is to have a minimum requirement of completing a heroic version of the dungeon before being allowed to join m+ at least once in order to teach people mechanics.

[@blubbermolch]

Bring back proving grounds 😂

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I don't think that really does anything outside of maybe this one specific tank.

[@ThomasBachler01]

terrible idea in my opinion. I don't believe that teaches you anything, particularly if people progress to a high item level and then start with dungeons, which is what we see here. Also, I don't do heroics or M0 ever, jump directly into M+ when its out and would not really wanted to be forced to do them - I don't think restricting everybody is a good solution. I do this by the way because I believe that the opposite of what you are suggesting is true. I think HCs are more harmful than good as they give you a false sense of security and wrong feeling for mechanics.

[@artavian2459]

@@ThomasBachler01 doing one heroic dungeon takes like 10 mins and even if you’re a skilled enough player you do need to learn the mechanics of a new dungeon or even some old ones if it’s been a while and you don’t remember. Also heroics are much faster so you don’t feel like you’re wasting time, perhaps if you have a certain m+ score from the previous season you can skip this requirement like hitting keystone hero. Also I think you’re overreacting to a restriction it’s not like it’s a grind and it’s good for all new and old players to recognize and learn dungeon mechanics. Plenty of bad players who have been playing for 10 years and bad players who have been playing for 1 year.

[@artavian2459]

@@heythereguysitsMetro it definitely can help since you said people who do delves don’t do m+ and just go straight into them without knowing mechanics and this could be a solution or at least a start to find one. Also people who have achieved key stone hero for example in the previous season can skip this heroic requirement. It’s not a grind since plenty of of players new and old struggle and don’t learn mechanics so I don’t see a problem with having people do just 1 heroic dungeon of each to learn plus it only takes like 10 mins to do a heroic so its not like a big restriction

[@reudig123lol4]

Americans write "O K" when they agree ??? thats so 2019... only humans write "ok", real WoW machines only have time for a + or a - no shenanigans in Europe xD

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

good one

[@neriaksoul]

yeah im european and often use + to confirm stuff. We actualy never use - . we write no ,)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Do you use any other mathematics signs? Maybe X for wanting to double down on a previous argument?

[@lightner6924]

I don't think people understand that the actually negatively effect other people in this game. Why play a group based game if you don't know what the fuck you're doing

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Because they aren't intelligent enough to know they don't know what they are doing.

[@Sladed]

I’ve never bothered with mythic plus, and I truly mean that. Since mythic plus has existed I’ve done maybe 3 M+ dungeons. Do I like the idea? Yes I do like the idea of a dungeon with modifiers. Have I felt it was ever worth doing for the reward? No I’d rather do literally anything else than have to go into a harder than normal dungeon and possible have to deal with players that don’t know what’s going on. To add to that I don’t know what’s going on, which is why I don’t put myself within mythic plus groups. I just don’t interact with that portion of the game and I enjoy Wow just fine

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

K

[@Kirschbaum2000]

Hey, got a BiS trinket in your 10? Nice, now go back to 4-7 range in order to be able to upgrade it. Having played tww for 1 1/2 weeks now, that feels just.. awful (i only do dungeons, never bothered with delves). Someone i know calls it community service.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well to be fair you won't ever have a bis trinket outside the vault. But ya I agree it's bad for sure.

[@crackthecorn]

100% most season i get to 2500 io by week 5 or 6 of a season , not this time around i just delved and heroic raided and i couldn't be happier not having to deal with M+ pugs. my alts dont have to deal with low M+ pugs my usual goals of aotc was not negatively affected by not doing M+ as my gear stayed with the gear curve. I can see myself never doing M+ this expac.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Cool, as long as you are enjoying it!

[@saenct]

+ = positive in math aka roger roger sir, and yes we use that in EU alot :D

[@saenct]

if its not roger roger ppldont type - but rather 2 or 3 paragraphs on why someone is trash and then its a disband. gotta admit through typing speed during keys in eu is impressive

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Do you use any other mathematics signs?

[@bynamscott5564]

I blame the shaman that invited this tank to a key because the tank doesent even have like 500 score,is that right? I blame the tank as well and honestly if he is new and the way he plays I doubt delves were very very easy for him, think he legit had challenge in them as a new player so he should be aware of content and progression and ofc blame on him for signing up for 5 It would be cool that we have adventure guide follower dungeons, you que up for a dungeon, you do it with AI and get tactic explained when you reach every boss Helpful thing as well would be to prevent entering higher m+ if you didnt complete previous lvl, for example cant enter a 4 if you dont have at least 6/8 dungeons completed at 3 or even all of them

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya he is 620 with only one key ever done. I think most people see some one at 620 and think they are good to go though.

[@xSiLviCoOk]

I'm so glad i swapped to DPS

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha

[@jonathanwhitehead9649]

No idea why I rolled Tank and continue to play Tank. I don’t do Mythics, just spam LFG for weekly and tend to farm delves. The thought of a Mythic, not knowing all these meta routes etc, just does not look like chilled fun to me, even the word meta makes me cringe, maybe I’m too old for this now at 42 😅

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You might just be overthinking it. Nothing in this discussion has anything to do with "meta." I was just making a joke from the last dawnbreaker video.

[@piffling2238]

People are looking at Delve gearing the wrong way. They look at hero track gear from delves as the big boogieman of M+. However, champion track gear is much more lucrative in M+ and can be upgraded to 619. Only benefit hero track has over champion is being a little upgradeable with gilded crest. Delvers are already starved of these crests so few are going above that ilvl already. Only benefit of hero track is it provides a clear next path for delvers. Get to harder content to upgrade gear. Hero track or no hero track the mere existence of another progression path causes the problem of trying to skip lower keys. Welcome to middle child syndrome. Ultimately this can only be addressed within M+.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm no it can absolutely be addressed elsewhere lol... We will see how they do it though.

[@piffling2238]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Well for starters they need a better learning environment. Look at Dawnbreaker alone. In normal and heroic Dawnbreaker you can get away with doing no lieutenants. You said yourself there are 8 dungeons to go through. A lot to learn. These players are going to try and work the ladder by following the key they get. It can be a while until they get to Dawnbreaker, by the time they do in M+ they are shocked to find out what they learned in heroic doesn't work. Maybe lower keys need to gatekept better. It's not right that a player can go through 5 key upgrades and find themselves in a +6 dungeon they haven't been in before. Perhaps that's part of the solution, a key can only be upgraded to the highest level you timed in before. So after completing a +5 Echoes you may just get a +3 Dawnbreaker because +2 is the highest you timed. Want to go higher, pug it.

[@beang7045]

This video reminds me of Husky Starcraft's Bronze league heroes, definitely bronze league players right there.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, we have a lot of videos like that now haha

[@darbycrash55]

is there really a point to scrolling combat text

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@darbycrash55 in my opinion no. Very outdated concept.

[@Saluuntv]

I've been using MSBT for a decade now so it's just a habit for me at this point, but honestly now that I started to record my gameplay it does feel a bit unnecessary. I might turn off the incoming heals and buffs but I like the notification messages (such as XYZ is ready now) and the low health/mana warning still.

[@bigbassjonz]

This is frustrating to listen to and hard to watch. Because I'm guilty and offended at the same time. I came back to retail after not playing since legion. I had friends that brought me back in. I didn't dungeon grind to 80, instead maxing out in campaign, delves, lfr, etc.. Of course friends were ready for mythic+ and brought me along, understanding I was still new to pretty much everything happening in the game. It was demoralizing and beyond frustrating. I didn't know the dungeons, wasn't used to the modern aoe effects, and various mechanics of the fights, and just generally bad and had a learning gap to overcome. But there wasn't time for that and frustration continued. My friends eventually stopped playing altogether, us having not progresed past even low level keys. I stayed with it and got better, leaning the dungeons and mechanics and finally hit 2k this past week. I think Blizzard has created a problem where the current system is just unforgiving with no ramp up allowed to learn the mechanics and dungeons. And there's no incentive to play them outside of mythics. It sounds like things were better in previous seasons. I do enjoy mythics, it gives me a raid / progression fix without having to commit to a mythic raiding guild. I would like to see them scale further with a bit more of a difficulty curve.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's in a much better state now. The "ramp" is a trick. You want them to be hard enough that you are forced to learn them asap. You don't want players doing dozens of hours of keys before they get to the actual ones that are dangerous. For better or for worse, keep plugging away and learning while you do it. And if you have any questions feel free to ask!

[@mr.u3078]

if it wasnt for delves I wouldnt play anymore, I dont have time for guild raiding since I cant follow a schedule, and id rather piss in my own mouth than do pug raiding at any level higher than faceroll

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

So what you didn't play dragonflight either?

[@mr.u3078]

@@heythereguysitsMetro up to a point, delves moved that point much further down the road in war within

[@Autumn-Rush]

If blizzard designed the gearing progression to basically skip into needing runed crests straight out of delve gear which is 606 needing runed to get to 619, shouldn't the community just accept that mythic 4 is the new mythic zero, and be more lenient toward people in those keys trying to learn? I feel like mythic zero is a bit too easy to actually learn much from, you'd likely get carried through mechanics just from Ilvl alone, I've been gearing up my alt tank which started doing mythic 4's in delve gear and often the DPS/healers are anywhere from 580-600 Ilvl, and they're still timing keys with 20 deaths, if people could just accept it as a learning experience, and enjoy the time spent together trying to tackle a challenge, while still being rewarded with upgrade potential, It just makes me think it's more of a player problem than a design problem

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It is 100 percent a player problem, but Blizzard is in the business of trying to fix those now-a-days, sadly.

[@Plexi_P]

Honestly i dont really agree with the takes here. Imo the problem is not that M+4s or even higher are the new "onboarding" keys, they should be treated as such and the lower keys are to easy with no return (e.g. gear) in rewards. It is just that Delves are way too easy in comparison and give way too good of gear. Gear from Delves (including Crests) should be capped at the start of the champion track, maybe even earlier. Especially for Delves done in groups, cause they are even more trivial. With no or gutted Delve rewards normal raids and early keys are relevant again. Both from a gearing and a learning pov. And people starting M+ in way too difficult keys, due to their gear becomes a non-issue.

[@TMFriedVO]

Dawnbreaker is probably the worst one of this season to go in completely blind. At least run a few follower dungeons first to know what to do Going straight to a +5 as a tank is crazy

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it really is one of the worst ever honestly.

[@Dr0Damyen]

In my opinion this has nothing to do with Delves and gearing via Delves. This is just the way it has been for several seasons. It got only worse, maybe Delves are a reason why it got worse. Maybe the mechanics in the dungeons or maybe other things. A friend of mine got all his portals in previous seasons as shaman healer and didn’t even know he has an interrupt and several stuns. People aren’t learning the game anymore. I had so many runs this seasons and last few seasons where I had as much interrupts as the rest of the group together. The gap between players who know their class and who know the dungeons and players who don’t know is huge. Not speak about players who own their class and dungeons like MDI players and players who don’t. That’s why I like the concept of Delves so much. No drama and just doing my thing. But I don’t like the current gearing and progression from delves. It feels really bad after getting 603.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, its certainly never been worse. This guy is 620 item level and doesn't know how to do this dungeon whatsoever. Almost all his gear is from delves. So that's kinda where it ends. But it could also be from raiding or something like that.

[@Dr0Damyen]

@@heythereguysitsMetro the fact that he is 620 tells you that it's probably more raid gear than Delve gear. This problem isn't new. We already had this problem in the past with raiders joining M+ at a higher level than they should. The problem got worse because on top of those raiders there are also people who do Delves who enter at a higher level than they should. But looking at myself it's not people want to join M+, it's just necessary from a certain item level (for Delves this is 603).

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@Dr0Damyen no you can see his gear on raiderio. It's mostly delve stuff.

[@Dr0Damyen]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I checked all items. It's about 50-50. So not mostly. And with the assumption that the tier pieces are also 50-50. Looking at raider IO he did do the raid on LFR, normal and HC. He just as much a raider as a Delver it seems.

[@francischabot1412]

It's mostly a design problem. There's no learning curve in the mythic+ system anymore it ramps up so fast so you don't have the time to learn. I disagree with saying that those players try to skip steps. It's super easy to start your key a +2 and then get carrier to a +5 instantly and then that's what you have a +5 asking people to downgrade their key to +2 again to learn is stupid design. It is my opinion that the last two seasons have been the two worst mythic+ seasons since the introduction in Legion and the ramp up in difficulty is the main reason. It goes from super easy to toxic hard in the blink of an eye specially since you gonna +3 the super low keys. My alt hunter is 603 ilevel and i already got a +8 as a key. +2 -> +5 -> +8. They don't skip steps there's no steps anymore that's the reality.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

We were talking about the people trying to go right into keys that would upgrade their hero gear. So obviously skipping steps there. I'm not really sure your point either way. If you feel like that range of keys is "toxic hard" then not sure why you have an 8.

[@blark96]

I always type + or - for yes or no... atleast since Legion... idk its just faster i guess😂 Also i think people are just unwilling to read/watch guides nowdays. I have a friend who has about 40h /played on lvl 80, and only ilvl 603 bc he does not wanna "waste" his time watching class/dungeon guides... He is farming rep and Ore when he is online🤷

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Do you use π for anything?

[@limpalex]

In normal it's not worth it fighting the lieutenants, just kill bosses and get XP.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya that's crazy, had no idea you'd be able to do that.

[@XxXStealtherXx]

They should honestly just get rid of being able to double or triple upgrade keys and force people to clear every single difficulty to unlock higher ones. So before you do a dungeon on +3 you need to do it on +2. Because right now new players will triple upgrade their +2 and then get smashed in the +5 because they have no idea what's going on.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

This is such a great solution and it never gets talked about. FORCING everyone to push their key 2-3-4-5 etc, would really help this process a ton.

[@TheUmbrex]

oh my god yes, and combine that with keys not depleting and u have the fix

[@therightperspective8690]

You should just be able to do whatever dungeon you want, on whatever level you want (once unlocked), like delves. Screw all this RNG. It blows.

[@AntGsz94]

Ur practically making mythic plus which is a high tier high end game content a LFG tool .​@@therightperspective8690

[@artavian2459]

sounds very bad since its not the tuning causing problems its just mechanics itself so this would solve nothing if people don't know mechanics.

[@wrongman5495]

+ mean positive

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@wrongman5495 right and that makes no sense.

[@wrongman5495]

​@@heythereguysitsMetro its a math thing, cause in math you use + for distingue positive number from negative number, i think a lot of people use it but dont know why hahaha its remember also the class vote

[@brentwaits954]

gotta get the nubs back in them low keys lol.. they are destroying the middle game

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya honestly.

[@brentwaits954]

@@heythereguysitsMetro you wanna do some keys for fun"?

[@brentwaits954]

@@heythereguysitsMetro getatme#1201

[@asasdsaasda]

+ means yes, - means no, to be honest is a new thing, not sure where this came from but its kinda annoying :)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

What does ÷ or even √ mean then?

[@asasdsaasda]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I never saw anyone use those signs in 19 years of playing this game

[@saali6860]

Europeans actually just say "+" all the time instead of yeah or ok

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Why

[@saali6860]

No idea, I'm just a poor Canadian stuck in EU servers to play with friends

[@MichaBlogtUndZockt]

thats why most players under +10 sucks as hell

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

sucks as hell. Ya, that's why.

[@BryBeanis]

Yeah that debuff at 5:50 is the no-light debuff, basically he must have flown to the ground or just not gotten back to the boat basically.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I just wonder why and where he goes specifically.

[@andrewpaige9152]

That dungeon is fucked on mini map after first boss I hate how the pings randomly to go to location when no one has pinged it. However agreed. I first learnt with heroics then progressing to mythics +2 then higher at my own pace . I already have my AOTC yet can't can't successfully clear a 10+ pug fml. In saying that you'd think someone would of said something guided or asked why that mini boss he would be enraged before killing the other's? If they all have done it before was it a noob group

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya really weird behavior all around here haha

[@Xiknyn]

I don't think the tank doesn't know what to do. I've run into these people in 10s. They're trolling. They're trying to bait people into blowing up at them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You think he is also apologizing and stuff along the way to play some super crazy mind game with these guys?

[@inallthechaos2774]

This is a really cynical assumption.

[@Xiknyn]

@@heythereguysitsMetro It's not even a crazy mind game. They're just griefing. It's like soft inting in league: you play poorly, very deliberately, but in such a way that people shouldn't know what you're doing. A lot of people will lost their key for one reason or another and then go do this to other people.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

​@@XiknynYa no, you are way off on this. You think he just started a brand new character with no M+ progression to troll other people? No shot. And for what its worth, I have done countless reviews of low keys now, and never once seen that behavior. If you have some evidence it exists, send it over. But I have never seen some one act that way and actually stay in the key this long. Doesn't even make sense to me.

[@Xiknyn]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I had someone stay in an ara kara 10 for 53 minutes, trolling the party by continuously dying to trash in the last room and prodding us about how some mystery mechanic was rooting him so he would keep dying to the web bursts. I don't think he made a character 'just' to troll people. I think he was in a key on his main, failed to time it for one reason or another, got tilted and blamed a party member, then hopped on an alt to 'punish' other people. This is a common behavior that we see in other games, and is the player attempting to regain his agency after he feels powerless when someone else causes him to fail. In the case of that ara kara, nobody said anything to the tank for the entire run, even as he pulled one pack at a time or overpulled poorly and wiped us several times. This person had mythic track gear. After 50+ minutes of grinding our way to the last boss. He just locked in and tanked it normally. These people are having a mental episode and this is their way of lashing out and the only way to deal with them is to ignore them. The dps shaman in this video allowed the paladin to 'win' by getting upset.