BROKEN Clock? "He's an ENTERTAINER"; BELITTLED and DISCREDITED - Caedrel on LS - League of Legends

[@pepegababushka3599]

I don't even watch Thooorin to agree/disagree or get informed. I don't even watch eSports anymore. I just enjoy how much he enjoys ranting

[@iwillnoteatzebugs]

Based

[@Ahmed.Hadjou]

it's so important that emphasized the part about the broken clock and 99% wrong takes.. I like Cadrael but fuck me that's a major offence and the "I like LS, he is a nice guy" is pure condescension

[@tiagomota4734]

Thoorins can contradict himself 10 times in the same video...nobody points that out! Hes calling ppl out that are behaveing exactly like he does...how isnit possible to do that without anyone calling him out on it!?

[@psixi7230]

@@tiagomota4734 because that's called self awareness caedral

[@handyman8051]

@@tiagomota4734 and because he never said that hes not controversial himself.He recognises hes flawed and in many occasions he has changed his point of view and questioned his own actions.The difference is we dont care about thorin.Like him or hate him,you can never,as a proffesional, bellitle the body of work of someone else.You can question it sure.But his reasoning has no value since it lacks context.He says stuff that ls never said or he told these things in context to his logic and reasoning.You can like or dislike a teacher whos been teaching math for 10 years straigt but what you can never do is bellitle his ability to teach math or to solve problems

[@abirmahmud2242]

@@handyman8051 so just recognizing he's controversial he can keep on saying controversial things? lol

[@Daisuke177]

​@Dan Beasley You're shifting the meaning of his words to match your narrative. He is not singling out only controversial claims, and saying 99% of only those are wrong. He is implying all of LS's takes are controversial, and that he is almost always wrong. He further attacks his character by claiming he brags about it over and over when he gets his 1% correct. He does not disagree that he is a broken clock, in fact his initial (genuine) response was to completely agree that he is. Immediately after, he realizes calling LS a broken clock is incredibly toxic, and changes to how much he likes LS. Even then, he only says "I wouldn't want to call him a broken clock because I like LS", even more toxic if you ask me. Watch his facial expressions, it's very telling. Stop trying to spin this as anything except a personal attack on LS's knowledge and character. If you're going to defend Caedrel you might as well join the rest calling LS retarded, and agreeing with everything he said, because the angle you're going for is so detached from reality.

[@TeamHahah]

The streamable link you mention is not in the description yet btw

[@Thooorin]

Good catch

[@Guergeiro]

I thought I was going insane!

[@firelaf1284]

16:30 Yeah it's just hyperbole. LS even admits that in certain scenarios Renekton could be a good pick.

[@ByeBaybe]

LS is the type of person to almost die to come up even bigger than before. the guy went all in and never gave up. respect.

[@ReuterL]

Thorin said Caedral didn't earn it yet. What did LS ever do? Caedral was a professional player for many years. Not the best in the LEC but still one of the best players around to the rest of the highest ranked players. LS is just a random guy who got connection to personalities in the scene and he got a short appearance on the LCK broadcast, which he used to flame Thorin, the guy who helped him in his darkest days. LS constantly makes stupid takes. If he wants to harvest the upside of strange takes, he is also deservedly harvesting all the downsides of making outrageously stupid takes. LS is unreliable as an analyst for the viewers, he might have some skills for the pro players teams but he is also obsessed with what he thinks is important. LS lacks the grand picture when analysing the games, he focuses too much on minor things and rants about it. His casting was also pretty annoying for everyone who wasn't a fan. Half his casting was uuuuuuuhhh, ahhhhhhh, oooohhh...

[@gadgas6905]

@@ReuterL he achieved more than caedreal for sure

[@pittaaaabread]

@@ReuterL LS literally was homeless to pursue this career. Caedrel didnt do shit. He's just an ex pro who has less knowledge about the game then LS.

[@pittaaaabread]

@@ReuterL "is unreliable as an analyst for the viewers, he might have some skills for the pro players teams but he is also obsessed with what he thinks is important. LS lacks the grand picture when analysing the games, he focuses too much on minor things and rants about it. His casting was also pretty annoying for everyone who wasn't a fan. Half his casting was uuuuuuuhhh, ahhhhhhh, oooohhh..." sounds exactly like caedrel.

[@Lazyworker123]

Seek to understand then to be understood. One of the 7 habits of highly effective people.

[@neilhanson7672]

Thorin explains things in such an way that even TSM fans will be able to understand

[@crowvii5081]

Thorin out here like the head of the mafia. You pick on one of the family you get holes in you. The information and insight of what you can learn from this video is next level

[@pectoralis1565]

That is what they call gatekeeping right?

[@crowvii5081]

@@pectoralis1565 no

[@drkrn]

Thank you for explaining the "have the cake and eat it" statement. As an ESL I never really knew what it meant, we don't have that in spanish. I thought it meant more like having the cake and then also eating it as a way to mock on those who don't have the cake. I also could've googled but my version kinda worked for the context ngl.

[@Expanses02]

dunkey

[@prawtism]

I thought that someone just gives you the choice and it's a choice. Works out the same, but yeah, his interpretation is the best anyway.

[@AARon11414]

This is brilliant. I also cannot stress enough how important it is that someone with an audience correctly understands and articulates philosophy, logic, and principles of argumentation. Forget the esports, this alone is *massive.*

[@ThePandaThunder]

Thorin fanboys man

[@pittaaaabread]

@@ThePandaThunder caedrel fan boys man.

[@mmccggiillll]

I really miss BluntSmokingAnusDestroyer , I hope he’s doing well in life.

[@Samjie]

F

[@nguyentri3608]

Good bye BluntSmokingAnusDestroyer. Welcome BluntSmokingSexEnthusiast

[@davidwilli5542]

Looks like i missed a funny insider

[@calebrocks83]

Thorin is a homie for backing his boi

[@berksterb8475]

A couple comments on the "Black Swan Theory". IMO, that theory is not important as a commentary about how innovation occurs. That theory is important as a criticism of hindsight analysis. FWIW, I work with cutting edge scientific innovators, and IME great science isn't about hypotheses, but about experiments. In my career, "visionary" hypotheses aren't what moves science forward. It's elegant, brilliant experiments that disambiguate that next little piece. Lasting innovation is incremental. I go out of my way to say this because the popular view of innovation is quite harmful and leads to bad funding decisions, overblown scientific reporting and poor discipline in young scientists. Brilliant innovation is work that can be built on, no matter how small.

[@gostreiver8036]

99% of them are wrong?? what a huge mistake to blurt that out

[@CyrilZhe]

It is almost like he used hyperboly...

[@HYUNSNAKE]

@@CyrilZhe it's almost like the actual % isn't relevant and the statement in itself implies LS isn't a capable analyst in any way, wich is what we're discussing right now

[@ISprayTrolls]

When thorin becomes a great thinker of E-Sports like a e-sports philosopher. I just wanted to say I was there.

[@ruminate5866]

when? He already is

[@3MAR443]

@@ruminate5866 he is the Esport Historian After all :)

[@guffels]

Thorin's breakdown of the 2016 election was better than most American media outlets.

[@CyrilZhe]

Was he talking about the election in Austia? I didn't get it... Why the US media even reports on these kinds of stuff?

[@Invictus-Solaris]

Thorin spitting facts while roasting someone is pure gold.

[@michalkrsik2384]

But is he? This feels like he is just protecting his friend in an extreme fashion. I am going to borrow part of the comment from Reddit on this topic. "He just completely ignores the possibility that Caedrel actually just wanted to have a discussion about the topic and just accuses him of drama baiting and grifting. He even admits in the end that Caedrel's apology was good and that the drama is resolved. Who is drama baiting here? Why make a 40 minute keemstar tier drama video attacking Caedrel's character and abilities then? This is textbook projection."

[@frucks1831]

@@michalkrsik2384 are you fucking delusional? Caedrel literally said LS is wrong 99% of the time. If you think this is the precedent to start a discussion you're absolutely mistaken.

[@colinmcbottle]

@@michalkrsik2384 The same "friend" he blackmailed publicly lmao. Thorin flips his views on people as much FNC 2021 likes to flip their games.

[@The007038]

Caedrel fans should watch some more of thorin content before opening their mouths KEKW or maybe that's why they're caedrel fans

[@noelltv.2667]

@@frucks1831 Have you heard of the word 'Hyperbole"? Go look it up.

[@The_Bomb_Devil]

I now understand eating cake and having it too. What was this video about?

[@vhjvbhjb5280]

Love it, dont understand the point about his takes being to controversial. A take is not good or bad depending on how controversial it is? Statistics on pro games doesnt mean anything, cause there are to many variables.

[@jasonyun2299]

The broken clock comment was probably a twitch chat comment, you can tell from the clip that he is reading something.

[@saintofthechurchofautism8433]

Of course he prepared his script, what you expect?

[@frucks1831]

But he still agreed to it

[@abdullahmohalel8136]

@@frucks1831 he didn't agree he just repeated it , it wasn't given much thought and he later came back and tried to backtrack from it saying no it's not what he meant hence the "I like ls comment"

[@monkeymadness1011]

I’m an ls fan and sadly this video just proves Caedral’s point. There’s such a vitriolic response to any criticism of ls whatsoever, imagine making a 45 minute video on a tweet and a 1 minute clip. Case in point you spent 5 minutes analyzing the use of the word ‘controversial’ to describe ls’ takes when that’s an entirely accurate descriptor. Constantly imputing the worst motives behind what he said and being the least charitable possible. Also don’t dish it out if you can’t take it, the second someone criticizes ls everyone cries but he constantly is extremely arrogant/rude when describing other players and analysts - questioning whether they deserve their jobs, hurling epithets. Caedral was far more civil than LS ever is.

[@luminous3558]

Thats such a retarded statement. Oh if people spread BS lies about LS there is a strong response. So if People always try to frame LS in some sort of bad light then obviously they will keep getting called out for it. Is he just supposed to take it and keep quiet when someone lies about him to harm his career? As a content creator LS is dependent on his viewers and in turn his reputation. As a analyst/coach/educational content creator/whatever LS is also dependent on his reputation to influence the game in a positive way. Imagine if any revolutionary inventor got framed as a talentless hack and couldn't get funding or the attention of the right people anymore. Thats what will happen if LS doesn't defend himself. Oh the guy is just a grifter who says controversial things, no need to engage with his opinions he just wants to make content and be funny and loud. In case you didn't know: Reddit and Twitter have a massive hateboner for LS and have been going after him any chance they get. Caedrel at best acted incredibly unprofessional, but the way he conducted himself seemed extremely fake. First taking a shot at LS's credibility and then backpeddling hard with a backhanded compliment. If Caedrel wanted to know why LS thinks Renekton is bad he could just watch 1 stream of LS, he constantly repeats himself whenever the champ is picked and he is picked a lot. He could even just DM him on twitter and ask him privately. You don't just demand someone to explain you something when you didn't even bring a basic argument or did any research.

[@monkeymadness1011]

@@luminous3558 BS lies? He simply challenged LS's take you dolt, LS CONSTANTLY says way worse/career damaging stuff about other players and analysts publicly, without DMing them first. Double standard.

[@luminous3558]

@@monkeymadness1011 He didn't challenge his take. He said LS is controversial and wrong but then didn't back his claim with anything substantial.

[@monkeymadness1011]

Luminous I’m pretty sure he indicated that he’d be happy to discuss it in depth on Twitter even tweeting LS asking to talk about it, and plus again LS does the exact same thing - you also didn’t respond to the main point which is that LS engages in much harsher and more vitriolic criticism all the time

[@luminous3558]

@@monkeymadness1011 Ok you are somehow incapable of understanding nuance of any kind. LS is loud and over the top to prove a point. When he flames people he flames their decisions and points out the mistakes in their thinking. Caedrel might have used less loud and offensive language but the intent and meaning behind what he said was way harsher than anything LS says on stream. Caedrel doesn't need to have a discussion with LS to understand his opinion on Renekton, he could look into any of the VoDs of the many games in which renekton got picked this split. If he still doesn't find enough he could privately ask LS in DMs about it. Making a call out post on twitter to force LS to respond under threat of drama when he clearly didn't bother to do any research on the topic before hand is not the way to go about it.

[@GothPaoki]

He was and he wasn't. There's a certain degree of truth and a certain degree of lies. First of all caedrel was straight up wrong about ls not having credibility. Regardless if you like ls or not ( I don't personally) you can't deny that he has the game knowledge to backup his beliefs even if you don't agree with those beliefs. However to discredit his whole criticism as wrong is also not accurate. A lot of the things he pointed out are true. Ls tends to be overdramatic and hyperbolic leaning heavily to entertainer which is also why he has a lot of fans lets face it we all love drama to some extent. Those who were watching lck last year know this. He has a very narrow minded approach about how the game should be played and he does tend to call games a lot of times from the lobby just because he doesn't like some teams approach to the game and their picks , he straight up says that some champs are garbage and he fails to see the use of picks like Renekton for example just because they don't scale well. Also what i always found annoying in his lck castings is he monopolised heavily the casting and it would get pretty monotonous a lot of times when guys like atlus just didn't have the time to speak and just laughed nervously to what he said when he was starting one of his usual rants.

[@lanceelopezz223]

Seconded.

[@MezmerizedCA]

@@lanceelopezz223 he always says "this game is lost" from champ select but then adds "if this was worlds finals(ie. the two best teams in the world) one draft far surpasses the other in viability". it's not like he's saying that some dogshit tier 100 na team can't win with a horrible draft vs golden guardians, which is probably worse than like academy teams. he means in a vacuum where things are played perfectly one comp in theory should destroy the other. not in practice where in na there's like 15+ mistakes per game on both sides of the game and no matter what the draft will win vs the other. also when speaking about non-scale champs he also says it's not that they're not viable, he's even said that a much better team should probably just pick renekton vs bad teams because they have the skill expression to actually utilize the champions strengths well vs people who are not good enough/smart enough to punish it. he hates non-scaling champions because if you just turtle games out vs horribly scaled champs(which certain teams are very capable of doing) as long as you don't have any HUGE THROWS usually you can outscale really bad anti-synergystic team comps and win out in later stages of the game. pretty sure his main contention with poorly scaling champs is that it's stupid to even put yourself on a timer vs an opponent who understands this and doesn't just throw into you. not only are you pressured to win by a certain timer, but you're pressured to win HARD, because if you don't by like level 9 or 10 your champion is just outscaled by the enemy champ and slots into the team better. it doesn't win sidelane, and if teamfights are played correctly by your opponent, you can't even get off a spell in teamfights on the targets you really want to be hitting before you're dead.

[@GothPaoki]

@@MezmerizedCA I think the number of Renekton picks and win rate in leagues like lpl pretty much disproves all his claims about picks like Renekton. As for what you say about scaling this is exactly what i mean when i say he's too narrow minded about the game. He straight up doesn't want to understand that there are things like scrapping in the game, skirmishing in which champs like Renekton heavily influence the game.

[@jamescalder5115]

@@MezmerizedCA Yes but his viewpoint comes from a vacuum. If the game was played absolutely perfectly on how he wants to approach the game and he believes the game should be played... then yes Renekton is arguably an over prioritised champion but when you are trying to force that opinion into the game - as if it’s 100% fact then that’s where you are wrong. League much like every game or sport is not a perfect game, there are a thousand different variations and ways the game can be played - Renekton is really good at exploiting the early game and flanks in teamfights due to his high damage, his point and click CC, high sustain, easy trading patterns and his easy gap closer... even if a team attempted to perfectly turtle to exploit his late game weakness - it doesn’t mean they could actually succeed and it doesn’t mean in late game that he would be useless - because playing the game 100% perfectly in every scenario is impossible (even for the best teams in the world) - it’s why Renekton, Olaf, Gnar, etc it’s why picks like that are so successful despite having high variance. (And it’s not just because good teams pick it against bad teams). Every single champion has high variance - picking scaling picks in itself (which is how LS believes the game should be played) has its inherent flaws because while you are “turtling” the opposing team can use that time to exploit the strength of their comp and by the time you scale - the game is already over. Playing the game perfectly doesn’t take into the human element, it doesn’t take into account how the opposing team is going to play the game... even if it was a final at worlds it doesn’t mean those teams are playing the game absolutely perfectly. The way LS views the game is from the standpoint of playing the game perfectly his way - When the reality is draft very rarely decides how a game plays out.

[@MezmerizedCA]

@@GothPaoki sure, i agree that it's a narrow minded viewpoint, but being narrow minded doesn't necessarily make it WRONG. it's true that for how the majority of teams play(which is why he's seemingly such a prevalent and strong pick), he's good but that's not because of the dynamics of the champion itself, it's because of human error. people handshaking stupid plays that they don't need to when he's at his strongest. also lpl is known for fighting over EVERYTHING. 5man teamfights over a bluebuff(and lets be real the game isn't going to be lost over a bluebuff unless you decide it's time to teamfight over it, it's ok to just give it up and get xp/gold in lanes as they rotate 5 to contest a bluebuff or scuttlecrab worth 100g). that's not exactly the pinnacle of STRATEGIC play. that type of play allows worse scaling front-loaded champions to shine in a meta like that. it doesn't necessarily make the CHAMPION good imo. it's just good in those scenarios.

[@Skillet4588]

I like Thorin as a person and the way he thinks, don't agree with everything but this was just him defending his friend lol. A lot of the stuff he accuses Caedral of LS does on as well. He also kind of takes some of it out of context and over analyzes it.

[@Snootz86]

It is what it is.. defending his friend.. getting in on some drama to make a video.. two birds one stone

[@jamesburt7265]

He doesn't just attack Caedrel for stuff LS does too he attacks Caedrel for things he in the same video defends LS for and says that because of his character you can't take on face value. Thorin makes some great content but this is not among it

[@kevinfranz9302]

I was like 15 minutes in and thought "Ok yes. I agree with this, but Idk if I "42 minutes" agree with this" Here I am 27 minutes after I had that thought continuing to thinking "yes ok that makes sense, go on." You win. I'm buying more gamersupps

[@kevinfranz9302]

I still like renekton top

[@jazeroliversy673]

@@kevinfranz9302 defo has its place. Renekton allows stomps top-jg duos like renek elise and renek taliyah. I think he is overused and undercountered, but still has a place in the meta. There are so many games where there is no reason that another top wouldn’t just be better than renekton in the draft.

[@alechintzke7395]

If LS responded to those tweets with the link to this video that would be fucking fire.

[@m1dge250]

24:40 blitzcrank top has a 100% winrate in pro play therefore it is really good

[@TypowyKubini]

Remeber Pyke top, before nerfs? Ah good old times

[@LeoBattlelionskillua]

At first wasn't planning to watch this, cuz i don't really know Caedrel nor did I hear about the twitter drama. But boy was this a banger. Fire content. I am entertained.

[@jakemurray4346]

I think you should watch LS stream these days. He no longer analyzes, he just flames and while he is stuffing his face his co-hosts carry the stream. Then he uploads the videos to KZbin and calls it 'Analysis', when it's just all co-stream commentary that anyone who knows the game and personalities could do. He got here by being like Monte, true. Now he is here though, he isn't doing the same stuff. He just streams to his fanboys who inflate his ego then you watch it rear it's ugly head every 5 minutes. It's actually a real shame. He is an intelligent person, and an original thinker as you say. I think just being cooped up with Twitch chat because of c19 has ruined him.

[@EpicVideoMaster11]

So true Thooorin LS could get someone to pin down and organize streams where he went down on things like that it would also give him a place to point too

[@Ahmed.Hadjou]

I bet all the people that disliked this video didn't even watch half of it

[@Zmargo702]

I hate this guy till he’s on my side and then he’s my favorite person in the scene

[@Linkingx2]

The Ryze example is fire. Absolutly true... No one played him like that and was even closely succsessfull... and even in a broader field in solo q he had abysmal numbers. But Faker played him like the God he is and then he was labeld OP or "faker just one because of an op champ" and BS like that... closely after worlds the champ was even reworked because he was too strong... yeah sure

[@panapunker]

I'm totally agree with that fact that what Caedrel said was wrong and also the way he expressed himself was also wrong, but I kinda want to give him the benefit of the doubt since I felt it more like a rookie mistake when he was streaming in a more informal set up and it blow up way out of proportion.

[@dominicholder7323]

I agree. And I don’t think he is necessarily wrong. LS‘s basis for his analysis are always based on everyone playing perfect. If this would be the case, LS would pretty much always be 100% right but we don’t live in a world where people are doing things 100% perfectly

[@panapunker]

@@dominicholder7323 you are right he's like that in some cases, I remember there was like a draft war that he did I guess it was with Dom and basically he did a draft that in theory was better than the dominate's draft but still he lost it because he didn't count on the fact that his Azir was played by Jiizuke. He has gotten better with this flaw and we can agree that there is no perfect expert in the field but I think we can respect LS philosophy as a coach, pretty much like in many traditional sports having different playstyles based on their coach's philosophy on how they feel what's the best way to play the game.

[@ds703]

Biggest issue with LS's analysis is that he deals in absolutes far too much for LOL

[@nunyabizz3357]

Le Sith

[@Infiltator2]

And it is jabout draft 95% of the game. No real analysis aprt fromn that

[@gabrieljoaobarglini8867]

@@Infiltator2 Saying that shows how you don't pay atention to ls streams, the amount of times he spends talking about itemizations and in game decisions are far more than talking about draft.

[@decotYT]

Especially for a game that's constantly changing due to patches with champion additions, rebalances and item changes.

[@joaquinchua3348]

@@Infiltator2 huh?? he literally costreams every fcking lcs game, start to finish, makes patch reviews every new patch, also how did u think he got the nickname liandrys salesman, he defended buying liandrys over morello that he was called that, He's not always right but saying he does no real analysis aside from draft is so disingenuous to the things he does. Just because you're pea brain can't understand what he's talking about doesn't mean he does no analysis, it just means you don't understand.

[@fathertime7864]

Basically, Caedrel is not an analyst but a spokesperson for the majority of the players that share the same opinion? 😂

[@lolXbogi]

Thorin you got to make a video about the person that threatened/blackmailed LS that one time over a petty argument. Oh wait... it was you

[@alexandresilva3427]

Care to link or atleast reference the occasion in which it happened?

[@lolXbogi]

@@alexandresilva3427 twitter.com/EgorD1/status/1305877276496744451

[@alexandresilva3427]

@@lolXbogi Thank you for coming through! It was a dick move for sure. Not quite a threat tho.

[@Ryan-si1yj]

@@VentiLator7 Not defending Thorin, he can defend himself, but this could be interpreted in different ways; could just be banter. Either way, Twatter is not good for Thorin. Chill man. It's like going to war every time. If you are interested in the truth then explore it rather than bulldoze people.

[@nguyentri3608]

Just going to ignore the way LS acted towards Thorin (in LS’ deleted tweet)? There was a misunderstanding between the two, of which they talked it out privately. But yes, keep creating that drama

[@del46_60]

Definitely agree that LS needs to do a better job archiving his perspective on the game for the sake of his own legacy honestly.

[@tgrabbit8940]

What legacy does he have other than crunching numbers on items and telling which items arw good and bad, which admitely he sometimes does a good at. Did any team or player who used his perspective on the game find success?

[@handyman8051]

@@tgrabbit8940 "what other legacy will a math teacher have other than crunch numbers and solve problems which i admit hes good at sometimes".Kinda moronic way to look at life aint it?

[@NapoleonSoares]

@@tgrabbit8940 He had enough of a legacy as a mind in esports to almost get signed as a coach for T1, the most dominant franchise in the history of league of legends. If T1 thinks LS is smart enough to be a pundit inside the league of legends world, he's obviously done plenty to secure some kind of legacy outside of crunching numbers. This is a horrendous take and you should probably just delete it lmao

[@abirmahmud2242]

@@tgrabbit8940 no don't delete it, you're right, if ls was the best coach/ analyst in existence then bbq wouldn't suck dick under his coaching, no amount of theorycrafting can do well against a team that has better players who are synced better even with mediocre strategy, for example, any lpl team below top 4 can easily destroy any lec and lck teams on a good day, they don't need strategies, they can just play their own aggressive style and win, so ls pushing forth strategies and saying they must lead with that particular strategy in order to win and everything else is garbage is pretty annoying

[@luminous3558]

@@abirmahmud2242 Yep sure BBQ totally just sucked and didn't get multiple game losses due to the malice drama and had their jungler barred from play for some time. They also got all the support they needed from their Org and none of the players were forced to live at LS's place due to failure to provide food, PCs and a place to stay. But hey they didn't qualify for LCK so thats all that matters.

[@Skyace13]

Yo the Tony Romo analogy was legit

[@cameronmele2989]

It was actually incredibly accurate. Obviously LoL and NFL are entirely different beasts but the interesting part, to me, is that I disliked the Dallas fan-base so I disliked Romo; But I’ve enjoyed him on broadcast. I didn’t know who Caedrel was before last year but I like him on broadcast now. I’m just your average gold ranked football player btw

[@airdoty9273]

I watch caedrals stream every single morning. I love his stream but thorin is absolutely right here

[@OverembelliShRED]

Sucks for you.

[@Xilo29]

Remember when it was controversial to say the earth circles around the sun 🤔 But its still a win for Caedrel because he got the attention and drama he wanted

[@hugolager548]

I dont understand how Thooorin always manages to make every video ao good

[@sleven8013]

Caedral is a kid in his field (on-air analyst and public persona) but seems sincere and earnest in his work, though generally naive hence "a kid". Would like to see him on a show with Thorin again just to set things straight. Don't think a stunt like this would burn any bridges in any way. We all have had our public "I am right on this topic and you are wrong" spergs before.

[@brandonwalker5011]

I've managed to go my whole life without such a sperg but maybe I'm weird.

[@sleven8013]

@@brandonwalker5011 yes you are the perfect specimen that we have long been looking for

[@Verlisify]

I love Thorin calling LS an Original Thinker and agree with everything he has to say. LS creating the concept of Piloting champions is such a brilliant way of viewing the game

[@unknown-em6ly]

Oh no, Caedral insulted someone he disagrees with and called him out to argue that unpopular take. Ls needs to step up and explain the opinion with some feedback instead of droning the same thing on and on in his stream in a dogmatic fashion only giving short explanations without any counterpoints while being content to insult and misrepresent something the viewers say about it.

[@xfrixor_2132]

But he literally does, in the Renekton case since Worlds 2019. What is that narrative that LS never explains his takes? He even talked about it with Mikyx last weekend.

[@unknown-em6ly]

@@xfrixor_2132 And how deep did that go with mikyx? a minute or two I wouldn't be surprised. past 5? Past10 mins? no way right. ¨Its in the vods.¨ cries just doesn't cut it, If you are confident in your take you would be excited to put it out there and debate it, to elevate yourself and show it out to all the people of the scene and naysayers like Caedrel.

[@xfrixor_2132]

See? You make the same mistake like Caedrel. You just assume from the get-go that there was no discussion or explanation longer than 1-2 minute. Also why should LS engage in a discussion about a topic he has explained his stance on hundreds of times over the last 2 years, just because someone who is insanely narrowminded and seemingly never watched any content from LS outside of some Tweets and Clips decided to discredid LS entire career and esports existence?

[@xfrixor_2132]

He also talked himself about why the discussion would be pointless: www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/m62guj/for_what_its_worth_here_is_ls_addressing_the/

[@unknown-em6ly]

@@xfrixor_2132 Was i not right to 'assume' ? you avoided the question right, that "discussion" was only 1 to 2 minutes not over 10? Because im pretty sure i saw that stream haha. And again he should do a debate with someone who disagrees because clearly the lol community and pro scene has not acknowledged his logic and views or simply hasnt heard of them. So do the debate with someone or do a proper video on the subject. ls parrots it like religion so youd think hed be invested enough to make a video or properly make a stream of it. just silly to say its too hard to discuss. definetly when you compare to someone like Thoorin here releasing long content like a Hero.

[@lanceelopezz223]

the AUDACITY to tilt. XD

[@higglyjuff]

I have the same criticisms of LS as I do of many "controversial" figures. They lack the ability to effectively explain their opinion beyond the statements they make. I think Riot analysts overall have a huge advantage in this area because they have a monopoly on some of the data. But outside of Riot, this is why I respect opinions like Tim from oracle's elixir, Inero, Impact, CoreJJ, Jatt (although he is largely connected to Riot), Vedius and many others. What makes them better in my opinion is that whilst they often have strong opinions, they are able to explain them effectively even if they are wrong in your eyes. For example with Tim, I can disagree with his power rankings, and still heavily understand why he ranked things the way he does. When you develop and present your analytical criteria or priorities for your analysis, you are more able to disarm the haters. People might still disagree, but you aren't controversial because rational people aren't going to be mad over a take that they understand. With Phreak, he was able to lay out the math of the Liandry's vs Morello debate to a lot of people and elegantly explain the overall nuance of the debate where LS was somehow unable to. LS works really hard, puts a lot of hours in, but he isn't the smartest analyst out there when it comes to actually presenting his analysis. Good analysts are effective at making their argument, at using data, language etc. in a way that will not just get your attention, but help you understand their position. I put LS in a similar vein to Crumbz and Dominate, although LS has much fewer credentials because he was never good enough to be a pro player. They can all make outrageous statements for entertainment to make people mad by not calming the hate down with strong explanations of their opinions. I can watch an episode of Run it and heavily disagree without being polarized against or for Tim. Maybe this is because his opinions are "boring", but I think it's just because he provides solid explanations, even if they aren't perfect, and manages to do it all concisely within a 5 minute timeframe.

[@TheMartinTD]

It’s a lack of intelligence, LS acts like a child who never got a smack when he needed it. So when he makes videos he’s basically playing up for the camera for attention, his analysis lacks any kind of depth or detail it’s just him acting like a clown and putting people down.

[@AiyukIsHim]

@@TheMartinTDif u take that away from him idk what to tell you lmfao

[@jackalcor9966]

LS has actually gone through full-on breakdowns of most of his opinions. He'll ask a question like "why are you not freezing here?" then he'll explain, in-depth, the benefits to what he's proposing and the negative aspects of what the player is actually doing, AND he does it in real-time. He has gone in-depth on what a cheater recall is, how to do it, when to do it, and why to do it. He explained the math on laindry's vs morello. He is actually very good at explaining his ideas in a rational way, BUT, like Thorin said, it's mostly 5/10 minutes within 6 hour vods. He definitely needs a more digestible way of seeing the "WHY" of his opinions. And didn't Dom literally do a 30 minute dissertation on Skarner and why maxing E is pretty much always wrong? xD

[@SaarlaneKretiin]

"never good enough to be a pro player" lost top lane tryout in korea to Khan outjungled na challengers with 220 ping played and scrimmed vs kr challengers and lck challengers yea...never that good...

[@higglyjuff]

@@SaarlaneKretiin Cool. But he was never a pro player. His credentials are minimal compared to many of his peers and especially the people he criticizes, because he has no formal tertiary education qualifications and has no proven track record. As a coach his teams haven't found much success and as a player, has barely achieved anything. His best team was Gravity in 2015, and they performed better without him in Summer. Losing to Khan for tryouts doesn't mean he only lost to Khan. It means he failed to get a spot, and given that he has also never played academy or anything development related either simply tells me that teams didn't even consider him. Also plenty of people in NA solo queue can do well there, even on high ping. In Korean solo queue, reaching challenger is an achievement but I was never aware that he ever reached it, in fact, I am almost certain he hasn't. You can disagree with me, but it is a flat out fact that compared to others he isn't actually much more than an entertainer.

[@KawaiiGonJinn]

Copernicus' takes are way too controversial to make sense.

[@FryTV]

I'll admit I know sweet fck all about LoL or any person he's talking about in this video, but when I see 30+ min vid from Thorin I know it's gonna be a banger so I click, watch, and enjoy pure banter and roasting mixed with crucial thoughts on overall thinking, philosophy, esports, and life in general. Absolutely love this type of content, straight fire! Keep it going, man!

[@gabrielehu3157]

Imagine Caedrel said this in a world where LS was T1 Coach

[@Trivselteknikern]

Yeah we saw how well that attempt was received by the local KR community :^/. LS is a good theorycrafter and is entertaining, but he does not have a good track record as a coach. Many LCK teams straight up refused to scrim BBQ because they would attempt to freeze at every possible moment, which lead to horrible practice and game quality and they couldn't translate it into stage wins anyway.

[@marvinlinardi]

@@Trivselteknikern thats cuz freezing is annoying to play against,because its a valid tactics to win games,i once froze my bot lane for over 10 min in a row,the enemy adc have 50 cs at 15 min while i had 140,thats a huge diff in gold without ever needing to kill the opponent

[@guestofearth]

@@marvinlinardi Yes, freezing is effective. Nobody is contesting this. Teams refused to scrim BBQ because freezing in scrim is wasting both teams time in terms of the amount of practice they can get at other concepts. Nobody in the LCK needs to be taught how to freeze, so it's useless to do it in a scrim from a learning perspective.

[@11DaltonB]

Even still coaches can be wrong on specific opinions or have bad takes. I feel like people want their favorite analyst to be infallible just based on status, which I’m pretty sure LS has said before is not a good way to approach analysis.

[@AbominationalFailure]

@@11DaltonB Abathur said it best "Never perfect. Perfection, goal that changes. Never stops moving. Can chase, cannot catch."

[@DCzero50]

ls did say one time that he'd tried to make content like that but he would repeatedly delete the videos because he felt like he things up for debate and didnt fully close in the argument as well as he liked to and would eventually just trash the concept entirely because of that. I think he really just lacks that fuck it mentality and cares way too much about detractors to even get his first step forward in this direction. He needs someone from his friends or even t1 to just push him forward and say its fine if the video isnt perfect youre standards are just too high and its hurting you in the long run more than a bad reddit thread will

[@LiveErrors]

TL;DR: Be Quiet and Listen, Nephew -Thorin

[@michaelthen5667]

I dont understand the renekton argument. Just fucking play the champ. You realize very quickly how giga useless you are from behind and when even you still aren't that strong. Its only when you get ahead you is when hes truly opressive. Then when you go to proffeseional play where the play should be as close to perfect where consistency is what should be valued some like renekton which relies on variance are probably not the best when you can play something like gangplank

[@luminous3558]

Especially when none of the Pros even manage to properly execute the oppressiveness when they go ahead. Champ doesn't even auto win with 2 solokills.

[@baptisteshorjian9292]

French viewer here. Been watching you for some time Thorin, gotta say, your content is great.

[@olamagnusson8782]

I think the point about hyperbole is moot or even against your argument, Caedrals personal streams are purely entertainment. In LS's case, his hyperbole serves as entertainment, hence him being a good entertainer. But you can't serve yourself up as being an educator and using hyperbole, because that goes against what you're trying to do. I think it's ridiculous to equate Caedrals "quips" with LS suggestions for what to play to reach success.

[@qwejy]

To think that an entertainer cannot also educate is odd. There’s no real reason as to why someone cannot educate and also entertain at the same time, especially if it’s presented in an interesting way (psst like a HYPERBOLE).

[@olamagnusson8782]

@@qwejy Of course someone can be both entertaining and educational, but if you're trying to educate people on what champions to pick you should probably not call them overpowered before you can prove it, like rocketbelt Nidalee.

[@markdude01]

Thorin I love your stuff and have followed for years and years but it’s clear LS needs some pull back. Yes LS is incredibly good for the scene but his ideas are even more useful when people like Caedrel disagree with him. You can hardly call Caedrel sensitive when you’re here frothing at the mouth because he asked LS for a debate.. Just grow some balls yourself ay rather than getting offended on LS’ behalf. LS is more than smart enough to speak his mind himself :)

[@luminous3558]

Caedrel didn't disagree with LS. He made some bad faith argument and backed it up with unreliable evidence and appeal to authority. Ah yes a champion has an X% winrate in a 5v5 game with different champions on both sides each game with various different matchups and generally huge skill differences between the pilots. Add together the tiny sample size and constant metashifts and you have to pretty much carefully dissect all those stats to find anything useable. But Pro players play it! Yes but pro players in EU and NA also fail to pick or ban seraphine every game despite the champion being an absolute abomination. Caedrel doesn't actually have an argument for why Renekton is not bad. He just provided vague evidence that LS would have to debunk first despite the responsibility lying with Caedrel to first bring a proper argument. Its a massive waste of time for LS to do Caedrels research for him. If Caedrel cared to know why LS thought that way he could've asked him in private which wouldve been a lot easier for both sides since they wouldn't have to account for the less knowledgeable parts of the fanbase. Or he could've tuned into any of the streams or probably just searched for highlight clips on youtube or reddit. The renekton thing has been going on forever so there is bound to be easily accessible quotes somewhere. Just because someone sounds nice and reasonable doesn't actually mean he is. It just means he knows how to sound nice and reasonable.

[@juanframetallica82]

That “a fucking average LEC jungler who was never in playoffs“ line was so good

[@Snootz86]

Tbfh what's LS achievements inside of league as a coach? Caedral is also smart in regards to the game and can actualy frame his arguments without coming of like a manchild

[@brandonburt4125]

@@Snootz86 the only manchild is caedrel

[@agreen182]

@@Snootz86 ding ding ding. Imagine defending LS by putting down someone else’s competitive record. LS has done jack shit competitively.

[@Meander_]

@@Snootz86 The most valuable thing was that he was actually approved by Faker personally to be a T1 coach, that should be validating enough.

[@gmnr1336]

​@@agreen182 Didn't LS just innovate the meta for two seasons in a row? Isn't LS in contact with many pro players, many of whom he gives advice to and helps to, MANY of whom initially didn't agree with him, but came to understand and use what hes talking about(Perkz and Mikyx)? Doesn't he like constantly watch LCS LEC AND LCK, not LPL which i get is a negative, but still. What more does he have to do, to convince you that he has a knowledge of the game most people don't?

[@TheBoomace]

its funny that he credits LS with being entertaining (Ceadrel) my own opinion for what its worth is that LS is not entertaining to watch but is worthwhile listening to to become better educated in league. I would go as far to say the opposite, LS is more educational and thought provoking before he is funny or entertaining.

[@TheArrivalCyberse]

The thing is, LS is such a great mix of both entertainment and education that some people can't seem to separate the two, which is why they come on to his stream, expect to be educated like it's a Bwipo stream but instead sees LS telling Fudge to pick Press the Attack Cho'Gath or something and suddenly they have this view of him being a hax. It's honestly sad because after this the only LS clips they will see are from reddit hate threads probably.

[@abirmahmud2242]

that's a stretch lol, you should watch caedrel breakdowns, he doesn't downplay you, the viewer's intelligence in order to explain why something should happen, well that's most analysts other than ls

[@stefanopaolini6117]

LS and Neme go super dramatic and theatrical whenever some toplaner pick Gnar or Renekton. They use very strong and almost insulting words for players very frequently. They are doing it grotesquely on purpose to be entertaining more than informative. And they enjoy doing so, and so does the fanbase

[@TheArrivalCyberse]

@@stefanopaolini6117 Show me an example of them insulting a player, THE PLAYER not the pick.

[@abirmahmud2242]

@@TheArrivalCyberse just watch his stream, any watch along stream, he does on a regular basis, especially during lcs streams, he's said finn's trash, i don't understand how analyst fucks who never made it to pro leagues dare to say pro players are trash, just cuz it's a computer game he's getting away with it, if it was a real sport the fans would destroy him, literally

[@RatWithaTool]

So many bits of this vid should be turned into gifs. Thorin an absolute killer haha, love it.

[@bluesunset9385]

My jungle wanting money and attention: Red buff gets stolen "the game is lost GG Me:"..... Whaaaaat???

[@fillphd]

Hey Thorin I’m a genuine fan of yours but I can’t agree with your defence of LS. I’m not claiming to know anything but I can see that you jump to LS’s defence way too quickly and respond to a bad version of criticism of him. I think it’s a blind spot

[@Trivselteknikern]

Yeah, I agree. Except for the exaggerated "99% of his takes are wrong" part, I don't sense any hostility from Caedrel's tweets at all. This video is just a bad take all together. While LS usually explains his thought process, he never gave a detailed answer on why Renekton is such a garbage pick according to him, when every single top team in every top region still picks it, including the LCK, nerf after nerf. There must be some reason for it and that is the point of the tweet. Instead LS just calls the game lost in draft and laughs it off. Thorin goes on to point out that Caedrel does the same thing, calling things "illegal" etc. but the difference is that he explains why and what exactly is "illegal" whenever he uses that phrase. For example, in one of his latest streams, he said said that the fact that Hylissang's Rell was in the middle bot bush was illegal vs a Morgana, Caitlyn lane. He went on to explain that the range advantage and early game power of Morg, Cait should always have bush control and early game advantage unless you are playing it wrong. The backseat gaming isn't the problem, that is literally the job of an analyst, but you should be able to respond to a claim that you so often repeat, when everyone around you sees it differently. I don't even know what he is getting so heated up about. Not to mention that Thorin's counter arguments are either unrelated Whataboutism or that LS does not need to explain himself or needs to respond on an outlet like Twitter (just like Thorin when he blocks anyone that doesn't agree with him).

[@alexanderschwarz242]

@@Trivselteknikern wow so much text just to tell everybody you don't understand half of what thorin says.

[@klarokomotudo]

I like LS and dont really care about caedrel but damn did thorin fkin demolished him to the ground. Would sound better if they werent good friends.

[@luminous3558]

I don't think thorin and LS talk anymore since the T1 drama happened, could be wrong though.

[@fab1950]

There's some good points that Thorin makes in the video including that Twitter is NOT the medium to be having this discussion, LS will likely get better feedback if he condenses his ideas about Renekton into a content video instead of having to try to scroll through his vods trying to put together what his beef with Renekton is, and that Caedrel is using poor arguments in creating this drama. I would like to say that his take on Tony Romo is holding Romo to a EXTREMELY high standard. When he was playing, Tony Romo was consistently a Top 10 QB in the NFL (out of 32 teams and around 100 QB in the league, not to mention all the 10,000s of want-to-be QBs and the college QBs, etc). That's significantly better than "eh." And he basically uses Tom Brady and Peyton Manning as people who would be better at analyzing the situation, which are 2 of the 5 best QBs in NFL HISTORY. That means of the 1000s of players who QBed in the NFL, hey, let's pick 2 out of the best 5 EVER as counter-examples that Tony Romo ain't that great at commenting about the play. This would be like saying, if Kiin went into commentary, "Hey, he's not that great because I think Faker or Rookie would have better analysis." I mean, yeah, that's probably true, but then, you're not going to be satisfied with commentary from any but 10 or so PEOPLE IN THE WHOLE WORLD. That seems extremely picky.

[@Hanley209]

Anyone know what jersey he's wearing here? Thought it might have been Moscow V but the crest/logo doesnt seem to match.

[@ovs4744]

All because Caedrel disagreed with LS and asked him to defend his statements lol, he’s such a fraud

[@kuriisulol4373]

I mean Caedrel must has negative iq, because LS already explained his Renekton-take over and over again. It was just a move to leech attention.

[@renecardona4806]

@@kuriisulol4373 Exactly, the people who keep asking LS to "Make a video about it" want to be spoon-fed the information rather than doing any research on their own, it's actually disgusting. A couple months ago I made an excel spreadsheet that would calculate how much damage Ezreal's abilities would do pre and post-mitigation against enemy champions based on items and levels (It was pretty sweet, I could just input his level and it would automatically assign points to his abilities) and enemy resistances. I put it on a google doc so people could actually crunch through any potential build path they wanted, but when people thought Essence Reaver was going to get nerfed (the same nerf that is going to happen on 11.7 was originally proposed on 11.4/11.5), they all asked me to calculate how the loss of 10 AD was going to affect his damage output. The link to the google doc was right there above the very comment they wrote. And not only that, I wrote in other threads earlier how the loss of 10 AD means his Q deals 13 less damage, the spellblade passive loses 4, W loses 6, E loses 5, and R loses 10, and yet people were still asking that question. That was with one post for one month, and I was already done trying to explain that the nerf wasn't a big deal, because the component items are what gives him strength, and the mana sustain upon completion just allows him to do it endlessly. Imagine having to do that all the time like LS does. I even made a video explaining and demonstrating that Manamune second item was better than Duskblade in every scenario due to the revised shock passive, and that was actually something I stumbled upon by accident by duplicating a sheet in the original file. But people were still saying that duskblade second item gave more damage until the pros started building Manamune second.

[@S0kki]

Broken clock was a Twitch comment btw

[@prathamsapra9761]

As an LS fan I might be biased, but great work! We really needed this video.

[@lucianoberumen2452]

Why is Thorin simping on LS?

[@jimmyn7t]

cause LS is right and caedrel is wrong, 99% of times

[@MestoLV]

answered by a LS simp lel...

[@jimmyn7t]

@@MestoLV doesn't mean that what I said isn't true and subjectively right. lel

[@Zack_Ev]

Completely agree, but I wonder after watching the clip if the broken clock comment was Cadrel reading chat. But imo he should not read that comment out loud and address it if it was so he is still in the wrong there.

[@mikewallace9292]

Let's be honest thorrin is the tribunal system for esports

[@manassoares]

Brother love your vids. My take on this, which can and is invited to be discussed is: I think caedrael provides good content and information overall to whatever cast he is especially with the pro play perspective and doing a whole video on combating per say his tweet seems a bit excessive. Like I do agree with some stuff you say especially that like "hidden drama" thing etc. but this seems a bit overboard. Besides that keep up the good work

[@charlesw7397]

I love your point about "controversial" opinions/people

[@ThetrentVal]

Specifically looking at the clip I feel this is way too much analysis on something Caedrel said obviously of the top of his head. I am sure if he made a video on it he wouldn't have been so hyperbolic and would have structured his thoughts. He obviously was just rambling on while he waited for his game to start. I personally don't like LS's analysis so I can be seen as bias but this seems a bit much.

[@julu123456]

I think it was more the clip + the Twitter comments. On one hand he did apologize that he came off too aggressive, but when you throw libel at a colleague like that you don’t get to just say “my bad” and not expect a Thorin type to slap you down.

[@teamotivez]

Mate Caedrel has had every opportunity to actually point out his opinions and make a video about. He is literally a colour commentator and analyst, his job is to make content, why hasn’t he done it so far? He has every opportunity to defend his stance, but he hasn’t.

[@randyroo2]

Defending a friend and fellow caster Thooorin honour +10

[@Vekset]

Holy shit, nice.

[@Digbigbombig]

I really like Caedrel, and I do agree with many of his takes about this, but he was really bad at generating this discussion. I feel like he geniunely wanted to spark discussion and try to understand LS’ side of the argument but he did a piss poor job at that.

[@pfc_church]

anyone else watching this for upset thorin? that accent gets real and I love it.

[@erlendode]

I mean was this really the best clip? like he said I understand that you don't have time to go through and check every vod (either did I ofc) but the way he speaks does remind me of other streamers that are tired of the same question so they rush the answer as quickly as possible before their game starts. do agree tho that he made it a bit disrespectful since he wanted it to bang and sound smooth

[@avekakristianto1314]

oh this stuffs still going on ? I thought he apologies like 2 weeks ago

[@abirmahmud2242]

you gotta make content out of whatever you can man, none of them really give a fuck about anything other than content in the expense of others

[@Kiefini]

You English people say "pretend to have a cake and eat it", in Italy we say "it's like wanting the cask full and the wife drunk"

[@ThePolarpop]

Never heard a single english lerson phrase it that way lol

[@Kiefini]

@@ThePolarpop literally Thorin in this video

[@rodrigod.p.serrano6046]

I agree with most of the video, but the context of caedrel's stream where he made those comments, made it almost impossible to actually give insight on, due to being about to start a game. Despite this , his comments felt really condescending and really agressive, while trying to diminish this aggression by ending with some soft words about LS to protect himself. I really like caedrel as a streamer and caster, but this wasn't a good take for him

[@luminous3558]

@@Weirdbrit ???? LS doesn't actively try to discredit peoples entire career especially with lies that aren't based in reality. LS being 99% or often wrong is not substantiated by anything that Caedral said. Lane Ivern sounds troll if you leave out the context of the patch on which he was disgustingly broken and autohitting you for 100 dmg at lv1 while transitioning into a disgusting heal and shield monster with moonstaff combo and his shield that since then got nerfed at least 2 times. Pro players didn't do it so it must've been bad. Meanwhile Seraphine isn't 100% pick or ban in LEC and LCS compared to Asia and SoloQ. Hmm..... could it be that pro players aren't actually perfect? Appeal to authority or unreliable statistics is very disingenuous and it makes the people who use it look very fake to those with at least half a brain. So Caedrel is either stupid and doesn't know any better or he is actively trying to smear LS.

[@groosh7913]

Need more Thorin and LS combined content. Easily two of my favorite creators.

[@arrun5125]

another banger of a video. he just dont miss

[@thtmansam]

Thorin talking at 1.25 speed in this vid.

[@6666Imperator]

personally if I understand correctly then the premise of Rene being bad (in LS opinion) is influenced heavily by the idea that the correct way of playing the game is taking the best scaling composition and playing the game as perfect as possible which puts Renekton on the clock forcing him to end the game until a certain point where he would be outscaled. Under the assumption that the scaling team does not need to make mistakes Renekton will not be able to find the openings he needs and therefore loses. If you have a different point of view on how to play the game most successful then you come to a different conclusion.

[@closteen4184]

I think you have to go back to playing through early game for renek to be good but then you have to lane well and maintain waves well but teams dont know how to play early current meta

[@hesperus2988]

I'd like to have a conversation around this, because I don't understand the argument that scaling has to play perfectly. In my opinion, it is the other way around. When picking Renekton you make a bet that you can get so far ahead that it doesn't matter anymore, we are talking about 5000 gold lead or more, that means you have to outplay your opponent really hard because it's not realistic to get such a big lead just from herald, first 2 drakes and normal CS difference. The thing about scaling, is that even though you made mistakes and are behind in gold by a couple thousand gold, your champions become stronger as the game goes on, unlike Renekton that gets weaker as the game goes on. Therefore, isn't the player picking Renekton the one that has to play perfectly and snowball massively ahead of the opponent? I really would appreciate a conversation, I might be wrong on my understanding of the game/champions.

[@closteen4184]

@@hesperus2988 ding ding ding someone understands finally Ya its such a high variance pick where you HAVE to get ahead People are saying renekton scales because of the mistakes teams make in teamfights and bad positioning

[@karotees]

@@closteen4184 this is a pretty outdated view. while this was true, and i def thought this of renekton for a long time. those same standards havent applied for a good year or two. the billion changes to the game have edged out the scaling problems renekton had back when games lasted 40+ mins on average.

[@karotees]

@@closteen4184 also some of the most pivotal moments of the game (fights over souls/heralds) happen when renekton is very strong

[@DeathChamberSPAZ]

I must be a pleb, I used to go back to the old SI episode with Edward to watch Thorin explain why Gambit couldn't get Visa's. Monte's reaction and Thorin's explanation is pure gold, then add in when Edward says, "No English". Dead

[@bv3365]

Nice to see who still remembers the Edward episode :D remember the genja tear Ashe support segment? Xdd and 6 Doran blades

[@Nonxsn]

Please link and timestamp, i need to see that LOL

[@lolilyminecraft]

The sheep with the least wool is the Welsh man's bride

[@wiryx1]

You don't fuck with Thorin's Boiis, you just don't.

[@heroneededsoon]

I see that a lot of these commenters don't actually watch LS's content, as is tradition.

[@Velereonics]

There are EU players who agree with LS as well, like people who think herald is trash and stuff like that

[@DanikonLUK]

he was just nonstop flaming everyone for picking the best top in the game with no explanation

[@willho4202]

I think what Caedrel said was mostly fair and I don't think there was any malice behind what he was saying but saying LS is wrong 99% of the time and that he's just a "good entertainer" was just out of order.

[@MrDespisedIcon]

Great video. Thank you for calling him out on his bullshit. Even more cringe the whole subreddit is in love with him and goes heads over heels for him.

[@TheMRJAMESEY]

Only came here to have "have a cake and eat it explained to me. Next up raining cats n dogs, explain that turn of phrase!?

[@Makudanos]

Honestly, I like most of Thooorin's content, but this video is ridiculous. Thooorin contradicts himself in this video a few times and calls out Cadreal for things that LS does all the time. A bit strange to see.

[@aliatay5326]

Can you expand pls or give the time thnx

[@sakurapinkful]

The only sad thing about this video is that some people even after listening will only conclude that ”oh thorin is defending LS” and wont even actually listen. For all the people who think that Caedral was just randomly giving his opinion let me tell you this. If you were a singer and someone fking said your voice is just too different and it wont sell but you are a great entertainer would you like it? Even the words good entertainer sound like an insult. I mean yeah he gave his opinion, but dude why give it? There wasnt even a context to give your opinion, he just randomly started to talk about the issues which created the most memes and hottest takes. Then when he got the backlash he tweeted the most politically correct apologies I have ever seen. Its crystal clear it was for attention. LS never spoke about him or his takes, why start giving your opinion about someone? No one asked. People should be kinder to each other and stop blindly chasing cloud. Bet these takes took him back to the frontpage of Redit, also Thorin made a video about him. He got what he wanted on the back of a man, really nice.

[@slix2011]

Sadly we are living in 2021, where attention is all that matters

[@ronaldvandeelen4896]

Addressing reasons why a specific pick is bad over and over again is not the same as having an actual discussion or an argument over it. It seems that Thorin and LS do not understand the difference.

[@Thooorin]

Get well soon

[@ShadowsSurroundUs]

How often do you get annoyed when you have to repeat yourself because someone wasn't listening? I would argue that many people feel this frustration yet can't they understand this is likely the feeling LS has on this topic. LS has talked about the negatives of renekton since at least season 9. Why on earth should he have to have a discussion with someone who won't take the time to actually research his side? LS was calling Renekton a bad pick when Caedrel was still a mid tier eu jungler

[@Invictus-Solaris]

@@ShadowsSurroundUs it seems like you just did a complete 180 just now. Lol

[@ShadowsSurroundUs]

@@Invictus-Solaris in what way?

[@ShadowsSurroundUs]

@@Invictus-Solaris I just don't understand what LS would get out of having a discussion with Caedrel is my main point. Sure, there is a chance that the community could benefit from such a discussion but a) the majority of the community probably wouldn't watch something like that because its a very niche topic and b) Caedrel had already had the clip on stream of him "shit-talking" ls. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure of the timeline (havent watched thorin vid yet). the argument that that clip was taken out of context I've seen on a few other comments doesn't really stand up for me either because I feel as a streamer you have to know that 90% of people who see the clip will never investigate the context while you also have to know that of course your spiciest takes will be clipped.

[@martinstoyanov2145]

Anyone can say whatever they want, Caedrel said what he thinks, if LS was right all the time he will be 1st in everything, World champion, best top, mid, jungle, adc, supp, coach, analyst.. the interesting thing is why people give money to hear someone talking bulshit for 4 hours, just watch without giving money to someone who can only play video games and see how often you will see him\her in future and how relevant she\he will be

[@gigapaw3790]

funniest thing is that LS always says that" no pro is doing xyz' that means that his point cant be reproducted ins stage result because pro players are not douing it and then that translate to solo q because average players copy pros that are not applying his ideas

[@darkman7878]

2 years later renekton is LS' favourite top champion in pro play XDD

[@unknownlife5528]

The broken clock strikes again to only entertain us. and Tommy need more gold stars

[@BotlaneCEO]

I think I missed out something. Where did the gold star meme started?

[@lanceelopezz223]

*Wiseau

[@szymciupol]

@@BotlaneCEO Dom's costream. Dom usually watches LCS team's content (TL's Squad, TSM's Legends etc.) in the break between LEC and LCS. So once, last year he was watching 100T The Heist and Zikz said to Ryoma "Well played Tommy, here's your gold star" or sth like that. And that was all it took, now whenever Ryoma plays chat spams some version of Tommy widepeepohappy and star emoji.

[@alexanderschwarz242]

@@szymciupol It was even worse he got his gold star for having the higest vision score.

[@MoxxeysCorner]

Anyone know what shirt thorin is wearing? edit: its a dynamo moscow hockey jersey

[@coybackus7665]

so thorin thinks caedral is a human centipede segment lol