Thorin's Thoughts - Hardcore Roots of Esports

[@THEnewMyself]

Super Smash Bros Melee is legitimately the last "hardcore" esport game around. Even some of the top players are living under the poverty line going by prize money. The mastery and excellency in terms of movement, technique and decision making are on par with just about any game ever at the top level, its absolutely brilliant to watch. This is coming from a guy who normally hates fighting games and I've been playing CS since 1.3 and BW so PC master race is in my blood. But top level Melee players often reach 400-500 apm on a fucking Gamecube controller. Its the last hardcore esport from the early days that gets decent exposure.

[@Kamadox]

THEnewMyself I think sc2 still counts as an hardcore game.

[@pokeshark]

THEnewMyself of course you'd hate fighting games, you play fucking Smash! LOL

[@JumboBog320]

pokeshark Not sure what that have to do with anything. I really like all kinda fighting games but smash bros is my fighting game of choice.

[@Dirkzy]

THEnewMyself Melee is legit and always has been. There is no other game like it. Melee is so fast and fluid. The skill ceiling is extremely high and knowledge of match ups, stages and players is important. Wide pool of viable characters. Its da bes.

[@Kamadox]

era1337 Hardcore competitive games are SC:BW, SC2, Quake, UT and fighting games. End of the story

[@snowblaze42]

How big is duncan's brain, holy hell not only does he remember every E-sports person and history from more than 20 years ago, he also knows real life history. Great video Thorin!

[@Amoncaco]

Snow blaze I think he remembers a lot but I alos assume he does at least a bit of research before his videos

[@snowblaze42]

lennygel666 Yea just to brush up and stuff but still you know that's a lot.

[@jimmyrustles358]

Snow blaze He is probably the best at what he does. Not only is his pool of knowledge wide, but he is able to relate it back to esports in a manner that makes sense as well as set up context and bring together storylines in a manner that is easy to digest and interesting.

[@aeroslayer2]

Snow blaze he has notes beside him, he doesn't remember it all but it is still impressive

[@Amoncaco]

jimmy rustles I think the fact that he's got so much knowledge on traditional sports aswell really sets him apart from the rest

[@disk0__]

Watching this again made me realize we need more old school content, I love learning about the past

[@job187]

One of the rare occasions where I'm not 100% on board with Thorin. The case of the CPU company associating their product with a pro player and Nike associating a shoe with a sportsman are in their essence the same. It's product differentiation and branding and allows them to charge higher prices.

[@GibbyWoW]

I'm interested in what you think of speedrunning games. The competitive edge isn't as sharp as it is in the esports field but it is very much playing games for the sake of improving your ability to play at all. The amount of attention given to very old games and discovering glitches alone is pretty amazing. I know you're mostly about esports but it would be cool to hear what you think about speedrunning.

[@th3sudd3n]

One of your best videos though! And vCod came out 2003 on the PC and that's where many of us hard cores were born :)

[@Punkledunk]

So many vids! Thorin, your spoiling us :3

[@TheLazaro94]

Jesse Spika you're*

[@schmeed0000]

I really miss that competitive spirit from the early days. Today it feels like most esports fans are nothing more than skin bettors and fanboys.

[@farguc]

schmeed0000 I love when c9 lost and freakazoid just told all the "fans" to go fuckthemselves

[@CrazyBasti13]

Olterior as he said that. I was like: :^) thanks freak, thats why i luv ya

[@stasyszy]

Olterior what ever happened to those personality type people, they are the pure competitors. Need more of those people in esports again!

[@hundredandonenames]

Thooorin: "it has never been about money it's about the competition, but if you like money. ALPHADRAFT"

[@Ziule192]

That's the best thing you could've done .. close out with an advertisement damn Thorin that was the best ending so far at least for me. Great video as always :)

[@Fredagsblues]

Lovely video Thorin! This topic plays back to the talk you had with Lurppis and Pimp where the Pimp said he since 4 years back havent found playing CS funny. it would be interesting if you would dig deeper into the roots of esport and the love of playing competitive. Have someone who plays quakeworld competitive on the show and talk with them about their drive and motivation. The scene has almost died out though.

[@grnd_ctrl8387]

Thank you, Thorin. You have made me depressed. You made me think of how esports is, and how CS, and Quake used to be.

[@maeschder]

growing up i knew mostly of CS, BW and later WC3 we always called the players pro gamers and i will never call them "esports athletes" it just sounds like pure pandering

[@Nuurix]

It's still today, just to the smallest stage. Every pro today started because of that reason. They wanted to compete in ranked and then evolved their competetive drive. Sadly some changed their minds later on and went for the money... BTW: One of you best videos lately. I really enjoyed this one.

[@SugoiGaming]

Great video, however Thoorin has been always very focused on FPS esports titles and because of that is also bit biased about this stuff. I Don't know why Street Fighter and early fighting games weren't mentioned in this video. Sure these titles didn't have those big events, but you had multiple small events across USA, Japan other countries in arcades and peoples homes and stuff.

[@Slothful_]

Fighting game communities have tended to avoid the Esports label for some reason

[@SugoiGaming]

Bravery Default Its same as Old School metal fans don't want to consider Metalcore as part of metal, by technicalities it is metal like it or not. Same thing here, its competitive gaming like it or not, just because you don't like the label doesn't make it invalid.

[@Gothdir]

Sugi Khan Beat em ups arent mentioned because they are not online games, at least not the early games and those werent a global thing maybe in the states and japan but here in europe there wasnt much of a arcade scene because a lot of countries dont even have/had those. Im 35 years old and I have never been in an Arcade because when I was young (at the same time counterstrike, broodwars, quake 3 arena were super popular) there was none. I guess this is the main reason. Isnt even today beat em up tournaments relatively small in terms of money and stage involved?

[@maeschder]

Gothdir Beat'em ups and fighting aren't the same don't get them mixed up. SF2 is a fighting game, Streets of rage is a beat'em up.

[@delatroy]

He's talking about "esports" which the FGC has never embraced traditionally because the scene was arcade meaning no market for sponsors. These days, it's also part cultural where the definitive ports are on console which opens up the market but where the community has retained their underground mindset - resistant to commercialisation. If on the other hand you were thinking about the roots of competitive multiplayer gaming, then it's fighters.

[@Teamgetout]

I think the mentality you talk about is mostly found in the amateur echelons of gaming today. The AHGL is an example of this. Where the opportunity exists for you to team up with people you want to play with and see how far you can go.

[@MichaelBoll]

Nice Video, which let me think about my own esports career and all the good memories. You are right, it was always about the game and the fun and not the (little) money you won

[@wilson4109]

I like how this video came after counter points with lurppis and pimp, where near the end pimp says he plays because it's his job and he hasn't seen the fun for years. I don't think he really meant it like how I put it, but it's just a funny coincidence

[@zombieboy3000]

JRE #777 Duncan Shields (Thooorin)

[@nukeboy14]

I really love how "no fucks given" that sponsorship sellout at the end was

[@IGOTTHESHAKESBAD]

In this channel, we cna't stop talking about the fuckng esports.

[@fakealbino19]

Battlefield 1492 was another early one that got to see some CAL and CPL action, it was around the same time as CS i think

[@kruger7796]

This was really good Thorin.

[@guggenheim5364]

Is there any indepth information about the early days of Quake as e-sports like Thorin briefly touched on? Like for example Transitioning from QuakeWorld to Quake 2 and especially the transitioning from Quake 2 to 3. I started following Quake in 2011 or something and at that point the had already gotten quite overrun by the bigger games. I have found plenty of footage and info from around the time when they switched back to Quake 3 from the 4th edition, but before that time I haven't really found anything deeply informative material. So if anyone knows where to find info or even some VODs about earlier Quake please lend me your helping hand.

[@ridiculousruke]

There's no real VODs of old games with commentary, since most of the games were not on stream. You could scour some google to look for in game demos of some old quake though. If you have specific questions you could shoot some my way in message, as I was an active player through all three iterations of quake/attended a lot of the CPL events.

[@SeekTheMoon201]

I think if talking bout the roots of esports one needs to mention the fighting games like street fighter etc. Thos games allrdy had nationwide tournaments when this kind of games where still playd in the arcades and therefor predate all the other esport scenes.

[@Bynming]

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that playing just for the fun of the game and to prove you're better at it than others has anything to do with purity. There are so many people who could be great but were never given a chance because of the constraints imposed upon them by life, the need to get food and to pay rent. And so when a player says "I'm only staying for the money", I find it difficult to blame them. Plenty of SC2 players say they hate the game but they can stick around and make money doing that instead of flipping burger or doing some bullshit office job 40 hours a week pushing paper like a drone. If I were any good at games I'd sell the fuck out. Perhaps it wouldn't be the "essence" of esport as you envision it but then what really is. Some of these players like Stephano in SC2 really couldn't care less about competition or anything, they were just fucking about and happened to win.

[@Diavolo222]

Carl M If you think Stephano didnt train like an animal because he said so in a tweet you are mistaken:) You dont become the best by cruising along. He just had a personality that you made you think that. But I do agree about that purity part you wrote. A man's gotta fucking eat. I mean look at Dota 2. If you are a player in one of the top teams now, you would be a fool to leave to flip burgers or w/e instead of getting lots of money from the thing that you are actually very very good at. Not to mention in this fucking economy, everybody does what they can. If you are in a position to make money, then damn it make that fucking money so you can be safe later on wen you're 35+. This whole purity shit is kinda like the No True Scotsman fallacy. That no true gamer would play for the money....well it's fucking 2015 and people are broke, make fucking money.

[@gt1752]

I think the key point is not play JUST for the money. Because if you do so, the thing you have got out from it is not permament. If you love the game, you train not just your gaming knowledge but also a personality which will remain long after you stopped playing. Honestly, the way I see it..in order to reach top level, like LCS you must love the game, because you will have to train like a beast to get there. Whats happenning after, like how you be truly stand for your team, or are you willing to go to another team which determines, you do it for the money, or for your teammates, friend etc.

[@dice568]

You're the best, Thorin. I love your videos. My brother once spoke to you about e-sports journalism back in 2003 or so about Counter-Strike coverage. Nice transition to the sponsors at the end. I lol'd. www.huhmagazine.co.uk/6988/nike-co-founder-phil-knight-confirms-the-brands-pronunciation

[@mogyesz9]

Hah sweet memories. I remember setting up hamachi with great pain to play BW againts random koreans so i can be better in our local lans. Also those weekly clanleagues and the "terror" when their 2v2 duo is from their B national team. I miss it :(

[@Tiger1286]

I like how Thorin pronounces 'Nike'. :)

[@mementomikez]

Quake 2, barrysworld... Those we're the days

[@rezinkie]

You're a God Thooorin.

[@Goodpsychiatry]

This was a good one thooorin :)

[@XxJERICHOHOLICxX13]

I remember back in '99 I was pretty pro at CS. I remember playing at a local LAN tournament and winning the whole thing. How much did I win? $150 among the whole team (so $30 was my cut, but I carried really hard so one of the guys gave me $15 of their cut). That and a free pizza and a 2 liter from a local pizzeria... If I would've won that tournament 15 years later I could've made enough money to retire Also as far as Nike goes, they advertise the competition behind their shit, but they tend to not advertise the hundreds of human rights abuses that go into making a single shirt

[@XxJERICHOHOLICxX13]

***** Lol I wasn't wearing a shirt when I typed that comment

[@XxJERICHOHOLICxX13]

***** Yes, but that isn't the point. If we're talking ethics and fair trade, we need to consider the price of what they're selling us. Right here store.nike.com/us/en_us/pw/t-shirts-clothing/bgdZbhk?ipp=120 you see a list of all of Nike's shirts and their prices, as you can see, most of them are marked up to high hell because of that stupid ass swoosh. These shirts were also made using immoral working standards, and they still expect me, knowing that to buy their shirt. I will not allow this because the amount of money they make per shirt on what is practically slave labor is too damn high. The shirt I was wearing was a shirt I got at a punk concert I went to a few years back for around $10. Without even knowing the origins of the shirt, I can already at least feel better buying this shirt, not made by Nike, than buying a shirt that was because even if it was made in a sweatshop, the profit being made off of my purchase is minimal compared to my other options. I'd like to never buy anything made by a sweatshop ever, but realistically, the only thing I can do is by less shirts to minimize my impact on that system. And that is what I do. I work from home, my wardrobe consists of 10 black t shirts 10 pairs of jeans and a custom tailored suit for formal events and that is really all I have and all I need. As much as I would like to completely stop buying anything made in a sweatshop, I still need clothes. I just do my best to minimize my impact.

[@mclaarson]

There have been computer sports before that on some german tv stations aswell maybe it was sat1 i think.

[@129das]

I still like watching Warcraft 3 E-Sport I find it interesting to watch. It is different then Starcraft.

[@KineticFaction]

You missed a shout out to Starsiege: Tribes Duncan :(

[@ThePendoMaster]

its so hard to believe there are people out there that don't understand the hardcore nature of these games

[@user-jc3vy6tc1n]

1:30 Didn't eSportd get popularized as a term by KESPA in Korea for Brood War?

[@ttvdekkz0r]

I wonder if Thooorin ever played HL Deathmatch. Calling it dogshit makes me think he didn't. I've been playing it a lot in my teen years and it was very fun. Anyone remember the map Crossfire?

[@ridiculousruke]

HL Deathmatch was pretty awful in terms of death match games if you compare it to any of the Quakes or Unreal Tournament. Was it fun? Yeah. Was it good for competitive? Nah.

[@MrPatak98]

how do you spell the game that thoorin said is still popular in korea . something like bruduar idk , can someone pls tell me so i can google it ,ty

[@darkmayday12]

Broodwar

[@MrPatak98]

***** thanks

[@chasedeli5461]

How did the korean chicken taste thorin?

[@JTS812]

Being triggered by how you pronounce Nike

[@mitchellwilliam95]

It's true though about having good gear for better gameplay, at least for LoL. I play on a shitty ass laptop, and it's super frustrating when a command doesn't go through simply because I dropped a couple frames during the input. I'm not saying if an LCS level player used my shittop he'd drop from challenger, but it is quite discouraging when you see the play, and make it(or you think you did), but your comp can't output properly. Hell, I drop frames on fucking RuneScape. Gear does matter.

[@ViceFielder]

This is confusing. Duncan always picked so heavy on the likes of f0rest, and always been so fond on the likes of Get_Right. Now, it is confusing because f0rest and mostly all other super aimers out there is, I believe, result of playing for enjoyment. Like that need to be obviously, certanly, utterly better than the guy at the wrong side of their sights. Which is what makes them have rifles as lethal as awps on long range, or making awps as versatile as rifles in close quarters. Then there's Get_Right, and that Pimp dude from whatever team from the latest Counterpoints interview. For instance, Get_Right allegedly is all about winning. On his reflections interview he stated that he would rather play bad and win a tournament than have the other way around. Pimp was the one I think is mentioned here, that he saw his career as a job, didn't really have that craving for playing cs for at least 2 years, and stuff. Jw is pretty much a kid still, and does give the impression of having fun playing still. His playstyle does also seem to reflect that. f0rest and sh0x on the other hand, seems to have all the excitement from the game taken away by the pressure of having to deliver. ESL ESEA finals, shox really didn't seem to care at all. Take f0rest away from any computers for a month, 'til he's dreaming cs and see if he doesn't come back to form. I'm not a soccer fan, but there's an example to be taken from there. That guy Messi everyone talks about. See if he cares so much about winning as he does about scoring. I don't think there's anything more important to him than scoring goals, not even victory, best player awards, or any other bs. You can tell that from how he's hard to take down, and when someone does hit him hard enough to drop him, he's still going torwards the goal on his way down.

[@chinTF]

Thorin has the best segways

[@BamfCross]

This explains your obsession with froggen!

[@Diavolo222]

Fucking adored Warcraft 3. So many good memories. A shame towards the end of the game they let the Blademaster remain imbalanced. Also, you wanna prove you are the best but you also want to eat and move out of your mom's basement:)

[@madichelp0]

There were large tournaments in fighting games years before any of the games you mentioned even existed. How can you talk about the roots of competitive gaming and not mention them?

[@Yatsura2]

tl;dr _"In the past, e-sport was about ambition, today its about money and I dont like that"_ Safed you 30 minutes. Thank me later.

[@FeroMortem]

Lol i never knew that the British accent pronounced Nike.Like n'Ike and not n'Ike'E

[@DarylVincent23]

umm.. how about fighting games? Thooorin arent the japanese been into fighting games since street fighter 2 i for me, it was one of the hardcore roots of esports

[@TheMaad]

isn't esports competetive gambling? i thought dazed and the iBP-guys mentioned something like that...

[@dsxcs]

You thought of this because of the PeacePigeon video and the reddit thread. ADMIT IT DUNCAN

[@Kiloryn]

Not WC3? It was HUGE in china

[@erikpalmenas4532]

uwotm8 WC is derived from "water closet" (flush toilet), and is commonly used on signs to indicate the location of a public toilet :D

[@TheMarkoSeke]

I think LCS is a good example of the "cynical money-making" mentality, new teams don't aim to be the best and compete against the best, they just want to reach LCS to get paid.

[@NinionPC]

lol he is mispronouncing nike

[@Hiom59]

Lol that's how Greek people say it AFAIK

[@DaveSP196]

I haven't heard it yet but it's probably the British pronunciation, or at least some places in Britain

[@gratler]

I agree half-life duel is inferior to q3 duel. but to say it is dog-shit isn't quite fair. search for garpy on yt for example. high level half life 1v1 is insane. too bad it didn't have good maps and decent power ups. its basically as if q3 didn't have armours but instead shards scattered all around the map. (no need for timing, no need for positioning) But if we're talking movement (especially gauss shooting) half life is easily on par if not better than q3. anyway: love your videos :)

[@hazard8617]

You are missing one game. Halo CE.

[@whatgoglikeno6120]

i bet this was video was sparked by pimp saying that he hasnt enjoyed CS for 4 years

[@DetractosPwns]

whatch this at 0.5 speed and waste your time! :D

[@1255674556666]

Halooooo

[@skatezee123]

NIKE he called it nIke i dont understand where people learn to call it that.

[@f3t3rnity]

Not a word about Halo :\ I assume you don't follow anything to do with console e-sports

[@ridiculousruke]

we talking about motorcyles and ferraris not tricycles

[@ridiculousruke]

to be fair, Halo wasn't released anywhere near the 'start' of esports as well, and had severe balance issues that drove the pc community away

[@seancoco]

Fucking cried laughing at the end, entire video promoting the concept of esports being based on competition of simply who is better than who, testing your skills against the best to prove yourself, not about the money at all. Looking down upon those who simply play for money and not for the competition... Then the alphadraft plug comes in hahahaha

[@Heldarion]

You say "cynically" a lot in places where I think "pragmatically" is the term you're looking for.

[@orrino]

Nike is pronounced Nike-e

[@emulsiongaming4461]

HI MUM

[@Soultaker1234567]

its pronounced NikEE not nike

[@TheSNNJ]

I get it, you are butt hurt cause esports is loosing it's spirit and becoming a money game. But you don't even realize how sports became all about money. Do you really think that from day one, or even in the early days it was the way it is right now, money, money, money? Of course not. Say for example football (soccer), in the beginning the was no money, common ppl (bakers, shoemakers, fucking grave diggers) were the ones who made teams, and they would play it for fun on weekends with other same-way made teams. There was no money, no press, no prizes, nothing. But when it got more attention, when more ppl were interested in the game, when more money came in, thats when it became all about money. Same thing is happening with esports right now, and there is no point fighting it, it like fighting against windmills. Thats the way life is, and you can not change it. Love it how you post videos every other day, love the content, keep on doing it.

[@YTspacecadet]

NAIGHK

[@TheGPel]

did anyone ever care about age of empires xd?

[@wujujuju]

Thorin is really good looking, i'd hit

[@baker3423]

Nike is pronounced nighkey

[@jgo413]

reebok pumps anyone....lol

[@Yolomamba24]

no love for COD and MLG? Kappa

[@meauxx]

"eSports had nothing to do with money early on. It was pure for fun." .. "Now, if you want to win money with eSports, there is AlphaDraft!" Not very credible, to be honest. =P

[@iamdbpickle]

Your mum said to make your bed

[@bigboy1295]

the deterioritation of e sports is truly disgusting everything isnt just about money u guise but if you wanna play some fantasy league goto alphadraft,com. lol jk