Tom Friedman on Israel’s ‘Morally Impossible Situation’

This week, the Opinion columnist and former New York Times Jerusalem bureau chief Thomas L. Friedman joins the “Matter of Opinion” hosts to discuss the rapidly evolving situation in the Middle East and the mistakes that led to this moment (he’s looking at you, Benjamin Netanyahu).
(A transcript of this episode can be found at the top of the episode page on the Times website.)
Mentioned in this episode:
• "Why Israel is Acting This Way (www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/op...) ," by Thomas L. Friedman in The New York Times

[@abbafan27]

Tom Friedman supported the war in Iraq because he said the United States would bring democracy to Iraq. Just keep that mind when he predicts the future.

[@tengokuro]

Iraq has a democracy. But as we saw in Egypt and Tunisia, Arabs vote like retards.

[@CentauriSphere]

Yeah it sounds like he learned from that, did you actually listen? His takes were some of the most reasonble I've heard so far.

[@Aan_allein]

Democracy did come to Iraq

[@tegusentertainment8021]

​@Aan_allein they democratically asked the US to kindly get the fuck out of Iraq after assassinating Soleimani and yet they're still in there. I guess you're not wrong, that is America's definition of democracy, partial occupation

[@shibenikvaysyor8309]

I didn't hear him predict the future.

[@arabiccola]

"Netanyahu's life mission was to prove that he can have normalisation with the Arab world without anything for the Palestinians, that he could have his 'normalisation cake' and eat the Palestinians as well. And my response was, you are like a man, who's saying he's adding muscle everywhere, but still has a stomach cancer" 👏

[@carlosacta8726]

Bravo!!!!

[@bdadolph]

If Bibi and his current boobs stays in power then Israel should stop calling itself a functional democracy

[@brittracer]

Tom "Six More Months" Friedman. I realized a long time ago that he and most other pundits don't know appreciably more than what you learn on the evening news.

[@grahamfloyd3451]

Dunning-Kruger effect at work.

[@magoldtube]

As someone who was born and grew up in Israel, I have never heard a westerner (or even a local on either side) displaying such a deep, wide, rounded, wholesome and nuanced understanding of the conflict.

[@jcc152509]

Israel is a rogue Apartheid state. #BDS

[@aquilajedi]

He wrote “From Beirut to Lebanon” about the Israeli occupation of S. Lebanon. It’s a must read for anyone who wants to understand how to operate in the M.E.

[@davidchou1675]

I mean Israel simply doesn't belong in Palestine -- let all our super-wealthy one-percenter Zionist Americans create New Israel out of Germany, Poland, Ukraine, and Russia! Why should Palestinians pay for European crimes???

[@cindymaceda2999]

Tom Friedman has had a finger on the pulse of Israel and the wider Mid-East over the past decades that I have been reading his opinion columns. He has been totally right on all his predictions. He really tells it like it is.

[@cindymaceda2999]

And, incidentally, I have visited Israel, Egypt, & Jordan many times over a 20-year period and have, I believe, a pretty ok idea of how the people feel on the ground.

[@ArtOlson2008]

These people make the conversation about war sound thoughtful and palatable as though they are sharing brunch around a beautiful marble kitchen counter. The war is serious, "slightly" terrifying,.. segue to Halloween horror movie fun!

[@claudesylvanshine6551]

This is how the upper crust views everyone below them and they expect us to lap it up.

[@joepanzica]

Actually, if more of us were capable of either generating or following this type of discussion, there might be fewer atrocities in the world. It’s a shame that more people aren’t saying similar things to what Friedman is saying. And it’s a greater shame that those who do aren’t getting their voices amplified and are not being paid attention. Would you be happier if they were foaming at the mouth and screaming at each other. Would it be gratified if Douthat were to brandish his knotty staff or terrible swift sword as he thundered in THE LORD’s name?

[@ArtOlson2008]

No, I found it palatable to a comfortable life. I thought he was expressing a healthy critical view. But his adamant point about protesting Israel's settlements and not one more brick...is somewhat out of sync or incongruent, as the tanks and missiles rain down on Palestinians. Its a reality distortion. Israel is not overzealously "building", its much worse. Vengeance and fury, killing and bombing as bad as Syria, as bad as Putin invading Ukraine. The Israeli's have killed as many or more Palestinian civilians in response to the initial recent terrorist attack by Hamas@@joepanzica

[@joepanzica]

Lots of us live comfortable lives without contributing as much to both public and elite understanding. BUT...I hear you and sympathize. But Friedman's take has much to recommend it in that it is expressed palatably to a wide range of people who might be open to persuasion. -- Yes, it is rather a bit removed from the frenzy, but, in this case, it is not a fault but an asset to the cause of peace. His view, overall, is well grounded in all kinds of facts and nuance that most of us are not well versed with. Also, I note the passion in his voice when he says, "Not one more brick. Not one more nail." (Even if he were being hypocritical, it is still a useful thing to say and to hear. ) Focusing on the back-and-forth atrocities can inflame passions, making realistic, concrete steps toward peace ever more difficult. In fact, on that level, there is near parity between those in Israel who work so hard to torpedo any peace process and those among the Palestinians who do the same. In terms of atrocities, there is a real temptation to take sides and say which is more vicious, irresponsible, cruel, and counterproductive. But that is a vile temptation from all kinds of viewpoints, incl uding that which puts infinite, incomparable value on any human life. Following the line of argument about which side is worse also feeds into the agendas of those who only want vengeance or who want to keep the region unstable for various geopolitical ends. @@ArtOlson2008

[@rainmanjr2007]

Life is cheap in this Universe and human life is cheapest of all. If ever an animal needed a predator it would be humans. We are our own predator but not doing a good enough job of bringing about extinction. @@joepanzica

[@zergbonbon4770]

...hard for me to accept that of all the security apparatus in Israel, which is almost exclusively pointed at Hamas, totally missed this, which beggs other questions...

[@grahamfloyd3451]

Reductionist thought isn't productive. The world is a rich and complex place. Conspiracies are merely the feeble minded grasping, rather than enjoying life.

[@maxslomoff]

Yes!!! Keep our $ out of Israeli settlement construction

[@jcc152509]

And those settlements are expanding.

[@mohelsalih9026]

It is too late unfortunately -- There are already 700,000 settlers in the west bank. These are enough to the kill the hope for a Palestinian state @@jcc152509

[@mensrea1251]

*"I'm looking for the least bad that buys the most time"* The most sane thing anyone on either side of the debate has said about the conflict yet. Sick and dead tired of the juvenile ideologues on both sides and their insane pursuit of absolute solutions. Solutions do not exist for issues like this because they are almost always predicated on reimagining the past. You cannot change the past because physics. Instead, there are only tradeoffs. Show me a path forward where neither side is particularly happy, but each side can live with, and that is probably the one that may have a chance.

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

I’m very much a supporter of one side in this conflict but there’s no way around it: your comment is completely accurate and should be the guiding principle in addressing the situation in Israel/Gaza/the West Bank.

[@paulajwhite2491]

We need ‘Enlightened’ leaders ( in this whole conflict) who are not corrupt and truly have the needs of their people at heart. Enlightened leaders who can see the BIGGER BROADER PICTURE FROM BOTH SIDES, and understand the ROOTS of this tragic problem. It appears to me that deep unacknowledged Palestinian wounds, dispossession have been simmering and boiling and boiling and simmering for over 70 years. Both sides need to acknowledge each other’s deep grievances, viewpoints and come up with a ‘NEW VISION’. War and killing do not solve anything. They only foster more hatred, violence, aggression in new generations fuelled with the same prejudices, rage, hatred and intolerances of their fathers.

[@KJ-yises]

Name me one enlightened leader you know.

[@paulajwhite2491]

@@KJ-yises I don’t know any at this stage but we can dream. If an enlightened Leader existed, he would give us Hope, and a Positive Vision for Real and Lasting Peace in the Middle East

[@irinastarobinskaya3461]

Not even mention what happened in October 7

[@ThreadandSugar]

Thank you!!! Friedman!!! Settlements need to stop!!

[@barbaradobson9298]

I appreciate Friedman’s honesty. Listen up President Biden.

[@chappellroseholt5740]

Good afternoon from the beautiful SF Bay Area. Thank you for this deep insightful conversation.

[@elax75]

Well that was a super interesting podcast! And that's coming from someone who is not very sympathetic to the Israeli perspective on the long-lasting conflict (for what it's worth i'm not American either so bear with European me). I so wish we'd listen more to the people out there, whatever their side, who are helping us be more intelligent and sane, and less to those who want to dumb us down. As the interviewee very eloquently said "I'm trying to make a difference, not a point". Thanks a lot NYT !

[@Agtsmirnoff]

You European Muslim/Arab apologists are total 🤡s

[@michaelboano7183]

I, like almost all Americans, do not know enough about the Israeli-Palestinian dilemma. Please explain why you do do think Friedman offers an honest & correct assessment of Israeli Prime Minister?

[@user-ln6cc4rf5z]

I STAND WITH ISRAEL, BEST OPTION IS EUROPE ESPECIALLY ENGLAND AND GERMANY SHOULD TAKE ALL PALESTINIANS, AS THEY HAVE PLENTY OF LAND AND FOOD, BECAUSE NOW "JEWS" ARE GONE, THESE PEOPLE ARE "WILD WEST" OBLIGATION

[@sunnyinsanya2]

Wow, if I was US president, then I'd call Friedman as well. Insightful, intelligent and honest.

[@bretshawnclark1589]

The link to "Why Israel is Acting This Way" is not working.

[@onedaysoon3]

Listening to the description of the invasion, I was struck by the denial of reality of the people living in freedom so close to what was called an open air prison, enjoying the peace until it ended.

[@QueenBee-mk8xm]

Israel is the most racist state in the world. No different to the Nazis.

[@hadaslevy220]

They've lived there since the 40's and 50's when Gaza hasn't even been occupied by Israel at all. They've been suffering rocket attacks since the 2000's and continued to suffer constant rockets after Israel pulled out from Gaza completely in 2005. A few years ago Hamas started sending fire balloons across the border to burn the Israeli agricultural fields, belonging to those same people. A large portion of the people who've lived there are left leaning, peace-supporting Israelis, some people who were kidnapped were literal peace activists, Vivian Silver helped people in Gaza enter Israel for medical treatment. Before the Hamas rise to power and the consequent blockade there were actually Gazans working in the area regularly in agriculture and construction etc. because the salaries in Israel are way higher. There was recognized shared humanity and at least a semblance of trust. Aren't you the one denying reality?

[@QueenBee-mk8xm]

You are very deluded. Those lands are not Israeli lands and already had Palestinians living on them for hundreds of years. It was the Jews that were the refugees, taken in by the Arabs as they had nowhere to go, but then they began to murder and steal the land from the Arabs and that has continued to this day. Those fields you talk about belonged to the Palestinians and where the kibbutzes were builit, there were over five hundred Palestinian villages which the Israelis destroyed and expelled, imprisoned, and murdered the Palestinians that had been living there. Get your facts straight. @@hadaslevy220

[@davidshea6937]

His perspective is gleaned from the most important truths of this situation, not just regionally but globally.

[@aquilajedi]

Dear world. You can criticize Israel’s apartheid and still not support terrorism against civilians. The two thoughts can be held in your head simultaneously. If it’s big enough.

[@davidchou1675]

LOL Terrorism has been the Zionist m.o. even before there was a State of Israel. But keep playing dumb for the dumb and ignorant.

[@ak203]

How is it "apartheid"? Arabs in Israel vote, have their own homes wherever they want to live, etc. Lazy bumper sticker phrases are not a sign of analysis.

[@geekonomist]

Aint apartheid!!! Just for FYI. If it were, palestinians could not vote, or practice their religion. Good refutations must upset you!!!

[@noalevylive]

The smartest comment I've seen in a LONG time, I will use that .

[@ranharel7033]

You can criticize Israel's actions without dumbing down the situation to loaded words that distort history and reality

[@user-jd2ek4ny1e]

Excellent. Thank you very much

[@Dieseloutlaws]

Your never going to be able to kill your way out of this mess, and the fact that terrorist believing that they will go to heaven for killing Jews this conflict will never find a peaceful solution 😢

[@christophorfaust2457]

One has to wonder just why such wise men are discounted and ignored by modern society? With all of the Palestinian/Israeli hate that has become mainstream these last few weeks, what is to become of us???

[@BurroGirl]

I like how Tom presented good and bad on both sides.

[@markacohen1]

Friedman has never been better than he has been in his recent columns, every word hits home with the thud of sense. He is also expressing what I hope will become mainstream American policy, and what the American Jewish community can offer to help Israel by way of tough love, and there is no other love worth giving in this crisis.

[@mendoza4789]

like his promotion of the iraq war?

[@markacohen1]

@@mendoza4789 I was just talking about his most recent columns not every word he’s written for the last thirty years. Nor was anyone else commenting here. If you disagree with what he said in this podcast that’s the relevant conversation to have

[@mendoza4789]

@@markacohen1 credability is paramount. neo cons have not been punished for thier wars that cost us 8 trillion and countless lives in the mideast. far from being punished their power has grown. friedman is exhibit a

[@mendoza4789]

friedman cries about the state of the world for his grandaughter (born into wealth btw). what role did neo libs like friedman play in our current state. the iraq war being a huge factor

[@markacohen1]

@@mendoza4789 well the discussion here was about the current situation, I like most commenters below find Friedman a voice of sanity. What do you think about what he actually wrote? And for the record, I give credit to Biden for realizing that they’d all made a terrible mistake and urging Obama to get out of the wars when he was VP and finally pulling the plug when he was in office even if it was badly executed. That may not be radical enough for you but we have an election next year and it’s Biden or armageddon like it or not. I m a Bernie guy but look around at the left in the other Western Democracies, infighting and fielding too far left candidates destroyed us. Israel is a whole other story Hamas’s bombing campaign in the 90s and the second Intifada drove the country to the Right and wiped out the Left.

[@harriemeeuwis978]

I wonder what he thinks of the Chinese warships (six I believe) that China had sent to the Persian gulf, possibly to protect their energy interests.

[@oboogie2]

This was a very enjoyable discussion, and I am surprised at my saying that. I'm not a particular fan of Tom Friedman, mainly because he hasn't really been correct about a damned thing in the last 20+ years yet he is still held up as some oracle. Nonetheless, he seemed pretty on point and tied to reality and, just as importantly, intellectually honest on this talk. Well done.

[@James-ll3jb]

😅. What was your favorite color again?😅

[@junahn1907]

This "morally impossible situation" is one of Netanyahu's creation. The Two State Solution was THE cornerstone of Israeli-Palestinian relations for multiple administrations, but it effectively died with the election of Netanyahu. Not only did he insist on expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank (even through violent, anti-Palestinian means), but the ghettoization of smaller and smaller cantons of Palestinians was achieved through the use of walled highways with apartheid lanes. Not only are Palestinian lands not contiguous between Gaza and the West Bank, the Palestinian controlled territories within the West Bank are basically tiny prison islands in a sea of armed settler controlled territory. He has basically committed to a policy of generational dispossession of the Palestinians in the West Bank and the radicalization of Palestinians in the brutalized, open air prison of Gaza. His policies made this expression of anticolonial violence inevitable. Again, it is a tragedy and the actors that carried out this massacre should, rightly, be condemned with the strongest language. But his actions made any other outcome impossible. When folks ask me "what is Israel supposed to do?", my response is generally "dude, you fucked up a long time ago".

[@Guerita72]

I agree with everything you said, but I'd like to suggest giving a different answer when asked what Israel is supposed to do. Maybe give an answer that will make them think, like, "They should stop oppressing the Palestinians and let them have their own state." Just a suggestion.

[@junahn1907]

@@Guerita72 Yeah. Thing is, folks don't see a connection and are not in an emotional space where they will allow a connection to be made. I get that. Emotions are raw. I am mostly trying to break it down in baby steps for folks. This explosion of violence is the logical conclusion of 16 years of action meeting inevitable consequence. The time to ask "what am I supposed to do" was 16 years ago and many points in between. Acting like it is some sort of impossible moral quandary now is a bit like asking how you are going to pay for all the flood damage after you chopped down all the mangrove trees 16 years ago.

[@raunakchhatwal5350]

This is just peak gaslighting. Yasser Arafat was given very generous two state proposals, but he refused each without counteroffer, and then launched a multi-year stream of terrorist attacks. It was Arafat who killed the two state solution.

[@johnsmith100]

In May 1948, immediately after the Jewish leaders in the British Mandate of Palestine have realized the UN’s 1947 decision, which called for the establishment of a Jewish an an Arab states on this land, the armies of all of the newborn Israeli state have invaded it, even though at this point in time Israel did not occupy even one centimetre of the West Bank (Israel’s war of independence). Why did they (the Arab neighbours) do so (invaded Israel)?

[@alexanderscott2456]

The jihadists aren't interested in freedom, you dupe. They are interested in building a totalitarian Islamist state and wiping the Jews off the map. If you think this is a land dispute land, you're woefully ignorant. It's about a death cult wanting to destory a modern technological, advanced civilization. That is the world ISIS and Hamas want to build. If you evade that obvious fact, you are choosing to ignore reality.

[@portalrene2485]

Bravo Mr. Friedman

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

Look up ANY comments by Norman Finklestein

[@ronaldusfree1]

Wish we go back to Oslo Accords.

[@urkiddingme6254]

Thank you. I've always learned something when listening to Tom Friedman.

[@rochesterjohnny7555]

Good analogy @ about 11:00

[@clairejeannette8454]

Thank you Mr Friedman!

[@pezeron24]

This is by far the most insightful and informed viewpoint I have heard in the past two weeks, and more.

[@19battlehill]

Friedman is a joke and if you think he is good -- YOU KNOW NOTHING.

[@fatemehm2949]

Why do not you listen to Dr. Norman Finklestein you tube recording?

[@JacobStein1960]

The Second Intifada from 28 September 2000 to 8 February 2005 ended any serious discussion of a two state solution. Tom Friedman is living in 1993.

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

Tom has known EVERYONE important in Israeli politics, for 30 yrs. He's right about BiBi's incompetent politicians. Tom gave solutions. You didn't. Then you attacked Tom. Your attack shows your goal is to hurt others, not to protect Israel. Your "thinking" will ensure NO PEACE & no solution.

[@kidmohair8151]

as lovely and vaguely revealing (there are a few prejudices on display) as this laid-back discussion of death and destruction is, if you are truly interested in trying to grasp why the Middle East has become the realm of the merchants of death (they are the ones who profit most from any conflict; indeed they foment them) that it has become, *in my opinion* you can do no better than to find Robert Fisk's "The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East". it's exhaustive and detailed, but worth the trouble.

[@JasonCunliffe]

13:00 > Q: political hard shift right 13:21 Tom Friedman answers.... 13:34 "under one condition.... 14:15 ... BUT I fxxxxxxg Will NOT Do That..." well said !

[@elefnishikot]

It seems to be a matter of complete indifference to these guys that they just printed a lie on the front page of their newspaper, based on a report by a gang of murderous animals.

[@dagmarvandoren9364]

Tiere sind gut

[@elefnishikot]

I am sorry you are right animals are good. I should have said scum. @@dagmarvandoren9364

[@robertcoyle1738]

Outstanding ~ ebenly balanced, great job …good luck you guys are needed

[@omurtasar7852]

I wish Tom was PM of Israel. I am sure less number of people would be hurt on either side. We desperately need peace makers in Israel.

[@olipinsk]

Israeli here. Thank you tom I agree 100 percent. I’ll also add that Bibi is finished here. We might actually have an Israeli government that would stop the crazy dumb thing that is the settlement movement

[@michaelboano7183]

Thanks for your perspective. As an American, I sadly have to say that we r generally uninformed as to many of what is happening in the Middle East. Most Americans opinion on Israel versus Palestinians centers almost exclusively on whether they r liberal or conservative with little or no appreciation on what the important issues and controversies are

[@mensrea1251]

Too late unfortunately. That train has left.

[@michaelboano7183]

@@mensrea1251 haven’t had to maneuver the word menswear since 1977-1980. Wish I could go back 🤔

[@Hellojsm8823]

I have noticed that many mainstream media outlets and social platforms have avoided directly commenting on these issues. Facebook has recently banned and blocked a lot of speech relevant to Netanyahu. The NYT is incredibly brave to maintain an incisive and prescient insight into these controversial and chaotic events. Respect!

[@mediaburn2]

The Channel 4 youtube channel has been great with a neutral view point as well.

[@jcc152509]

The mainstream media is Israel's lapdog.

[@benqurayza7872]

The NYT is not so moral. It encourages Jew hatred.

[@AbuSous2000PR]

dude... try to leave any critical comments at their website it has been years since they accepted any comments for me i come here to give them a piece of mind cheers

[@thewkovacs316]

then you havent been watching cnn or msnbc which makes sense, their ratings are in the toilet

[@mvmkr1]

Thousands of victims of terror have been displaced in Israel.

[@thomasmitchell7645]

Very good conversation.

[@AlfredoLopez-gp6en]

Great stuff thx facts

[@meteor1237]

So agree with TF! Thx!

[@aProudOG]

Is Thomas doing the Sunday talking head shows? If not, he should.

[@F4R4D4Y]

The two state solution is dead. Sorry, Tom.

[@thewrightoknow]

This was brilliant

[@siddhubabaji]

Great talk, even though need to say that there where so many self contradictory things in what Mr.Friedman was saying, but I guess it's just the very nature of this very conflict & what the heck is a perfect war, can people remind me of one perfect war that was fought in last seventy years, may be there were some, but i really don't think there is a thing called a perfect war.

[@jcc152509]

His Israel bias is nauseating.

[@siddhubabaji]

@@jcc152509 I don't think my friend, even though I am not capable of nor it would be right of me in saying much in this matter as I am not dealing with this matter first hand, but I can certainly say that It's a very complex scenario and from the distance I am seeing it I think it would be really easy to blame one or other party solely for this mess but remember what's easy may not always be right & the solution to this problem will not come from easy but from the very difficult process of understanding each other and negotiating with each other fairly and the first step would to owning up to your own mistakes by every party.

[@jcc152509]

@@siddhubabaji This isn't feasible. Israel has all of the power and controls the narrative. They engage in a carte blanche fashion, are an illegal military occupier, and are hell bent on beating the collective life out of Palestinians. If you cage people, starve them, mentally, physically, emotionally abuse, and terrorize them, take their land, use Israeli military courts, create an open air prison and an Apartheid system, have jew only roads, surveil them like they are all criminals, raise their homes, burn their olive tree farms, kill them, control their resources, disallow everyday products products from being allowed into Gaza, limit their access to electricity, raze their homes, evict them from homes, engage in forcible transfers, severely limit their movement, bully, allow IDF forces to permit illegal settlers(hilltop jews) to engage acts of terror, threaten to destroy the Dome of Rock, imprison innocent Palestinians, house children in detention centers, and show utter disregard for their lives. BN said that Israel was going to take all of Judea and Samaria in late 2022 on Twitter. Israel is reaping what they sow.

[@gooddaysahead1]

Next: Listen to Prof. Yuval Noah Harari's comments. He is an Israeli professor of history, and he is an international best-selling author on human civilizations. His books have sold over 35 million copies in 65 languages, and he is considered one of the world’s most influential public intellectuals today. His take is similar to Mr. Friedman's, but he has a very personal perspective.

[@Edo9River]

This was seen coming towards us, however slowly. And we can easily predict that Iran has to eventually get involved. Eventually; but to what degree?

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

Very unlikely Iran will directly enter. They'll secretly use Hezbollah & other proxy groups. More likely Iran, China & Russia will unify their voices. It all depends on Bi Bi the extremist. If he escalates further, then Iran will become more vocal & help their proxies to counter-escalate. Netanyahu is the fool in the middle, who controls whether this becomes a real hot powder keg. He lacks sense.

[@jcc152509]

And BN has been claiming for a long time that Iran is on the cusp of attaining nuclear weapons. Maybe this can be interpreted as though he wants to erase them?

[@ChannelMath]

erase Iran? there's no way. @@jcc152509

[@govindagovindaji4662]

12:40 I saw that video of the Dr. literally chasing D Suliman, by clapping his hands at her the entire time, like you would shoo a dog, off of the hospital grounds as she attempted to talk to a patient (who also was telling her that she was bothering her and her family). It was something to see~! He was yelling and shooing at her like this until she was practically out of sight~!!

[@cunhasantos3014]

❤

[@boazvalabrega1173]

So interesting! why doesn't it have more audience?

[@mambaman9363]

How can the interviewer even think that Hamas wanted to govern Gaza in a normal way? They turned it into an offence oriented military camp. And the whole world supported them.

[@dromgarvan]

May God protect Israel.

[@diraziz396]

Interesting..

[@juliec5798]

"I fucking will not do that." Nice.

[@grozzilla]

Tom truely speeks the absolute truth!!

[@ytqclys]

Is it legitimate to compare what Hamas did to the killings that occurred in the Nat Turner lead uprising, the Haitian Revolution, the Kenyan LFA/Mau Mau rebellion , the Mexican Revolution, etc.?

[@jcc152509]

According to Norman Finklestein, yes. If you cage humans like animals and abuse them in myriad ways, then one should expect that they will do whatever they can to hurt their captor. And Israel attacked the hospital, Tom. If you equate the IDF propaganda with truth, this shows you are a mouthpiece for Israel.

[@ytqclys]

@@jcc152509 We are not going to get an objective investigation of the explosion at the hospital. Both side could have done it by accident, and both sides could have had reasons to do it on purpose.

[@aquilajedi]

Turner didn’t do anything positive for the abolition of slavery. Abolitionist thinkers got the ball moving and the US army did the rest. If anything it scares southerners into supporting the confederacy even more. Haiti ….. i spent 6 months there if you can salvage even the weakest metaphor from Haiti, I’ll give you any of my medals you want. Hamas started a fight that directly killed Israeli civilians and will lead to combat that will indirectly kill Palestinian civilians.

[@browngreen933]

Yes, and also American Indian uprisings where many White settlers were murdered, raped and taken hostage.

[@Ihatehandlesfashyyoutube]

No, this is college level understanding of Israel, Judaism, the origin of the Jewish people, and the origin of the Palestinians.

[@-aussie-]

Wonderful guest

[@buckeye200175]

Yep

[@user-ln6cc4rf5z]

KEEP "POSITIVE" OPINION FOR OTHER TOO AS TRAFFIC MOVES "BOTH WAYS".

[@maureenerwin6485]

Talk about the Israel lobby, AIPAC, and their tactics if you mean it, Tom.

[@simonp896]

This is important to listen too!! Some much needed perspective. Thank you.

[@mikekimveteran]

Damn, Chuck Norris Tom... I dig it. Jokes aside. He is right. Am glad that he is moving towards Warthink....

[@F4R4D4Y]

My favorite horror movie is The Birds.

[@brendatenorio5721]

Shame turns to anger. Netanyahu has turned his shame into complete destruction of Gaza.

[@govindagovindaji4662]

14:37 I hope Tom reads this but I don't think he will. I've been listening to many thoughtful heads like his own; many suggest that a two-state solution is merely lip service as Gaza and the West Bank have very different economic, social and other concerns. At this point they are not going to be able to reconcile these two as one against Israel. It is time to think more in terms of a 3 state solution. There are by now, so very many settlers mixed well into scattered areas of the West Bank, too. How are they going to either get them out of there or what~? They are going to live in a Palestine~?

[@freeheeler09]

However things go, Gaza has a population of 2.3 million people squeezed into a tiny slice of worn out desert that probably couldn’t feed 23,000 people. As global warming and global conflicts worsen and agricultural production is further disrupted, will the world continue to send food to Gaza?

[@freeheeler09]

Gaza will forever remain an unexploded grenade until the population pressure is relieved.

[@aquilajedi]

Valid point.

[@marcpadilla1094]

Mill would say,and Niezscthe, the universal moral thing to do is live.

[@sallycarlsson3710]

Thank you, thank you, thank you Mr. Friedman. Well said.

[@contemplatively]

There is no moral ambiguity for normal human beings with functioning common sense. The moral dilemma comes as a result of us completely losing our moral footing and deforming our minds enough to think subjugation, occupation, genocide, and ethnic cleansing can sometimes be ok. The Palestinians have won the philosophical war long ago and we LOST. We dismally and hopelessly lost.

[@joepanzica]

. “By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, and yea, we wept when we remembered Zion.” About two and a half millennia ago, someone composed a song about the pain and rage of being forced from their homeland. . “We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.” . “For those that carried us away required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us . the songs of Zion.” . “But how shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?” The Babylonians had destroyed their temple and their capital city. They had blinded their king, a descendent of David, after forcing him to witness the execution of his sons. And they were being tempted to accept this reality and try to prosper in this new land between two mighty rivers. . “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.” . “If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.” Nor would they forget the neighboring nation who had allied with the Babylonians to bring about their destruction. . “Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation . thereof.” This catastrophe, this “nakba” befell them in the midst of a great flourishing which may have begun not long before an earlier disaster had struck the Northern nation of Israel at the hands of the Assyrians who were also vanquished by the Babylonians. We know of this great flourishing because of its fruits which we name as the Tanak, the Hebrew Bible, or the “Old Testament,” a melange of prose, poetry, history, philosophy, and promise. Much of the final writing, editing, and assembly of this work probably was accomplished in Babylon, but under the influence and protection of the Persians who had conquered Babylon. This work did not shy away from paradox or contradictions because it preserved so much dispute and contention. It valued disagreements of the differing traditions. It valued the good and the bad in the human spirit… Or it, at least, did not shy away from portraying the worst of human impulses… . O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. . Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Today there is an obscene level of rationalization for the “necessity” of killing “little ones” in the interest of revenge, deterrence, “honor,” or “self defense.” People talk like it somehow “makes sense” to destroy Hamas while limiting civilian causalities to some “acceptable” minimum. Or they acknowledge that there is no way to separate Hamas from the civilian population to justify their lust for killing or exiling the entire population of Gaza. They do this using pretty words or by using the brutal imperatives of their urgency and anguish at the horrific provocation deliberately perpetrated by Hamas to generate apocalyptic atrocities at the hands of Israel. And if challenged, they throw up their hands and widen their eyes to ask “What else can we do?” Or “What would you do?”

[@obtuseangler768]

I'm sorry, books and old songs don't make land yours. Israel are racist, oppressing thieves. We've seen it for decades and we've had enough. Just wait until the US stops shipping arms because of domestic protests...Biden is in trouble and will have to listen. Imagine no more US aid paying for this terror campaign😊 No more Iron Dome ammo, hezbollah has many hundreds of thousands of rockets. Doing a great job making sure the rest of world doesnt give a hoot about what happens over there in the end.

[@stopato5772]

Peace is not on the charter that founded Israel. That is the problem. Genocide was a foundation stone and pillar of Zionitism. How do you change an engine on an aircraft in flight? Netanyahu is no mechanic for this.

[@martinxxx9510]

13:20 !

[@everythingandmore5537]

No mention of the ICC and the ICJ. No mention of commandment an eye for an eye and not a life for an eye

[@leenickshramko1100]

As Hamas’ leader sits in Qatar, how can Hamas be “wiped out”?

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

You're describing their spokesperson. Do you understand the difference between a spokesperson and the leader?

[@stephenkenney5708]

Hamas is/wants to be a proper governing authority?

[@EliDahi]

I am old enough to witness that Hamas was a charitable organisation before Israel was born.

[@stopato5772]

Thank You Tom Friedman for speaking up on halting all settlements and the US taxpayer money/ weapons support package. I hope the Senators listen to this - a reasonable request.

[@brendatenorio5721]

Fair assessment from Tom Friedman.

[@davec6146]

Thanks for speaking the truth. Why do we go "wow" when we hear someone speaking the truth? Because we've been trained to follow and swallow the narrative; the spin. Refreshing and important!

[@cambizkhosravi]

I stopped listening when you said the situation was frozen. You have zero idea what’s going on.

[@MrEyalem]

The true meaning of Palestine is all the land of Israel without any Jew, Hamas is Palestine! From the river to the sea there won't be one Jew free, and almost all Palestinian support him. We, Israelis, finally get it right...

[@BrianFullerPDX1]

Apartheid nation finds itself in a morally impossible situation. Who'd a thunk?

[@rsfaeges5298]

This checks the boxes: knowledge, understanding, sanity, humanity, and he's not here to tell you what you want to hear--unless what you want is the strong sauce.

[@TeaParty1776]

I have denied knowledge therefore, in order to make room for faith -Kant, top modern philosopher, the context of Leftism and Rightism

[@jamesreilly7684]

Although Ed Witten is scary smart my favorite alum because he is both wise and scary smart is Tom Friedman. This podcast was extraordinary. When I was a grad student "From Beruit to Jerusalem" was not only considered required reading for IR/Politics but close to the canonical voice and explanation of that fustercluk the Levant.

[@jcc152509]

TF is blindingly pro Israel.

[@aquilajedi]

It was the most important book I read prior to my Iraq deployment. Absolutely crucial for understanding how Arabs (and other misc) think.

[@ChannelMath]

Do you also understand how Americans think? I've heard Americans think that brown people are less human. Is that true? What's a good book that explains how Americans think? @@aquilajedi

[@aquilajedi]

Sounds like you’re into oversimplified narratives. If that helps you understand the world - more power to you!❤ As far as a book that might help you better understand Americans that’s a tough one. We completely change 180 in temperament and character every 15-20 years so it is much harder to lock down.

[@jamesreilly7684]

Not oversimplified , but one who cannot see the forest from the trees would say that. Also de Tocqueville is still an excellent read about americans and it is 150 years old. I do agree that one thing has changed since Beirut to Jerusalem was written agewise the Israel/Palestine conflict is the equivalent age as the US /Native american conflicts were in 1950 or the US civil war was in 1940. Even if you are 100% pro palestine at some point you have to recognize that it was your grand parents or great grand parents who's land was stolen. No one wants to hear about genocides from 100 years ago. Not the armenian, not the holocaust, not what the japanese did to the interns in the Philippines and not to the Palestinians. Israel, however evil and distasteful to some, exists and is not going away. And thanks to all of the wars and conflict they have the best cyber tech in the world. The harder you fight the stronger they keep getting. Palestine and the palestinians have been egregiously wronged. So were the Carthaginian's, the Vietnamese, the irish, the poles, the druids, the Mensheviks, the Egyptians, the Inuit, the Aztecs, the Incas, the Hawaiians, the Phillipino's and thousands of other peoples. Duly noted, time to move on.

[@nawawil]

Excellent podcast. The guest is brilliant!

[@cindymaceda2999]

Tom Friedman should be referred to as the Oracle of the Middle East. 😂

[@RichardLewisCaldwell]

"There is no once and for all". Wow. hopelessness doesn't bring good decisions. 30:00 There's a thing called the Gentleman's Code. It's based on the concept that those in power have responsibilities far beyond those we expect from the powerless. You spoke of a Palestinian Leader you respected. Imagine yourself in Israel's place. Would you have promoted and protected said Leader? Sent funds through said Leader? You can't blame squabbling "pets" for the fact that those who fight dirty will win without the help of their owner, and as you know, Palestinians live like pets: dependent on their owners for the necessities of life.

[@ricardorosen5308]

It is incredibly that a journalist opinate something like this. He is pro Hamas.

[@faribaist]

What a great GOOD COP interview to smooth things for the bad cops

[@chrisd2896]

So from both Palestinian and pro-Israeli friends I have a common consensus that a two-state solution is dead. And has been for long time. From the Israeli perspective, as Friedman said, the Palestinian government is too corrupt, inept, and such as state would be a security risk. From the Palestinian side, they say any so-called Palestinian state would have to make so many concessions to the hugely powerful partner state that essentially would be castrated right from the start. It would also be utterly fragmented to make a viable state. So how about a single federated state on the line of let's say, Canada where you have powerful self run provinces and a federal government that does stuff like military, foreign affairs, and so on. Canada has the province of Quebec, a French speaking and culture-based, Roman catholic society with laws based on juridical legal system under which civil matters are regulated by French-heritage civil law. Other provinces are English speaking and British culture-based, mostly Protestant society with laws based on the British Common law. This system has worked well and keep peace between the two societies very well. So Friedman followers, what do you think ?

[@dannydetonator]

I'm not Friedman's follower, but if you learn about Arabs, Jews, Muslim Brotherhood members and all their unadulterated history, this seems an utopia. Extremists won't allow it to happen (mostly islamic, with small minority of ultra-orthodx Jews). If extremists were removed, sure it's the best solution. Second best is two-state solution, again, without extremists as they'll never agree, and never wanted a modern state in the first place. They don't even care about lives of Palestinians, none. However if two-state - or Palestinian state were established, 'castration' of Palestinian international ambitions is not the worst case scenario. They do want an Arab league, an empire of fundamentalist Islam. Most do anyways. Vague parralel: if you want to free a serial-rapist, would castration be the price or you trust him on some grounds he'll not do it again?

[@medicuswashington9870]

Successful Communist China and Russia are concerned observers of the Gaza tragedy. The change in the balance of world power has occurred. Anticipate the disruptions and chaos to be prepared. The madness made real continues.

[@safiakadir7695]

Now go listen to Ilan Pappe and Rashid Khalidi to get a better view of things and history.

[@abuaamirah]

How come you can completely turn blind and deaf to the Palestinian situation not only in Gaza but in West Bank? How can you even talk about 2 state solution when you know that everything has been done on the ground not to allow the 2 state solution to happen?

[@andrewharmon2157]

If Israeli children are held captive in tunnels, why is Israel bombing these tunnels?

[@lupemerrit]

I agree on that any money Israel gets should have some strings attached. BTW. Israel has been getting US foreign for years. Look up amounts if you’re interested. I was shocked.