Toxic Femininity? Heather Heying

[@heimdallsgate6141]

Heather is great wish she did more content.

[@nickmagrick7702]

she will

[@EvanGadol]

Agreed. I love her.

[@Zomfoo]

Heimdall's Gate Suuuckerrr

[@heimdallsgate6141]

@@Zomfoo umm ok

[@karamlevi]

Great call she’s center center but not wish washy.

[@agvulpine]

Better phrased would have been that "Women's weapon is social manipulation, lies and bullying, especially on social media, and especially to other girls, but also when lodging false sexual assault accusations against men." "And while physical violence among boys and young men are responded to very harshly by law enforcement, social manipulation and bullying are not so much and mostly falls under civil law and not criminal law."

[@gwynneveireland]

If masculinity was so toxic then kids without fathers should have turned out better.

[@matthewr3986]

Bingo!

[@dwayneeutsey8162]

Thank you for having Heather on. What a breath of fresh air. It's so sad hearing the extremes on both sides dominating the issue. We need more voices like Heather's.

[@pineapplaplatypotato]

As in, women need to call out the extremists of their kind

[@jeffreysegal2065]

Breath is the right descriptor considering her low, breathy vocal delivery.

[@waynepoint]

She is an extreme on one side. She has been arguing for the "boys will be boys" narrative. All or any bad behavior is not "toxic" to her but "natural". And she seems mad that women are calling it out. 😳

[@madrox4132]

@@waynepoint Wat

[@jonteman9328]

One of the most significant problems with the extremes is that they believe that everyone that is against their opinions are extremists themselves but on the other side. Since they hate their opposite extremism they won't listen to what their imagined opponent's arguments.

[@timrichardson4018]

I'm at 7:54. I just had small realization that there is this weird sort of inconsistency on the left now regarding expressions of sexuality. On that front, more left leaning types tend to advocate for freedom of sexual expression while saying that the person doing the expressing has no responsibility for how it effects others. But in the realm of speech (another form of expression), the same group is advocating for holding people accountable for how their words effect others. They are drifting toward zero responsibility for effects on others in the sexual sphere and near total responsibility for effect on others in the verbal sphere. On the one hand, they advocate for near total individualism, but on the other they push for near total collectivism. Of course, a woman dressing a certain way does not excuse sexual violence, nothing does. But a woman with nearly every inch of her chest showing, for example, can hardly blame straight men for paying her attention and issuing sexual invitations.

[@timrichardson4018]

Gosh, how I appreciate thoughtful dialogue on difficult and divisive topics! I don't mind talking to people who have different views than me IF we can have a thoughtful and respectful discussion. I am open to changing my mind upon hearing a compelling argument. As a society, we need to again educate people on the value of dialogue and healthy debate. We need to come back to a view of truth as something that no one group has a monopoly on, but rather something that emerges as a consequence of such things.

[@davidhawley1132]

Power.

[@xpusostomos]

Tim Richardson: no no no, you are confused. The left wants total sexual responsibility when it's a man expressing his sexuality to women, they want zero responsibility for women expressing their sexuality to men. It's all about power, and building their matriarchal authoritarian regime. It's not the sexual sphere vs the speech sphere, it's the allegedly oppressed vs the alleged oppressors.

[@timrichardson4018]

@@xpusostomos I agree. I wasn't trying to necessarily connect speech issues and gender issues directly. It just struck me that there is an extreme of one standard for one issue, and the complete opposite standard for the other. But dealing with the sexual sphere alone, I totally agree. There is a group that wants men to be accountable for how their sexual expressions are perceived AND how they perceive those of women. For those people, if a woman walks out in public nude, and men stare, men are the perverts. I don't hear people on the left advocating for women to exercise a degree of modesty. Again, nothing justifies sexual assault, or persisting in making advances when the woman has clearly said to stop (harassment). But men cannot be blamed for initial sexual attention when that seems to be what the woman is advertising for.

[@davidhawley1132]

Tim Richardson Women want what they want, even if they change their mind later about they wanted and blame you. You can’t run a society that way.

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

Good point: MeToo became a showcase for bad feminine traits, such as relational violence (psychological aggression).

[@YammoYammamoto]

Hypergamy: The difference between women jumping around destroying lives as she's young - vs a man divorcing a shrew to find something new... is that there are LAWS stacked against the man as he divorces the woman. He is supposed to pay her for the rest of his life. THIS is what MGTOW is about. A woman can play around as she sees fit - but if a man does the same, the state steps in and forces the man into a life-long submission at the threat of his freedom. You may equate these from a biological/evolutionary perspective - but doing so without recognizing that the laws ONLY considers ONE side of this argument is preposterous and disingenuous.

[@godislove8740]

I was brought up by my father.

[@lordreyna6924]

Yes but mgtow is only a symptom not a solution and more societal consequences will come from that now that both extremities exist. If we don’t experience them in our lifetime the next generation will and who knows what that will look like.

[@onesquirrel2713]

@flownet07 I would not be so sure that that is the case. A woman only has to get knocked up once, maybe even by deception. And then she has a pretty much free ride for the rest of her life. If the father doesn't pay up, then the collective society will step in. There are no consequences for women's actions, period.

[@jasonsanders8091]

@@onesquirrel2713 That's true in the West, but not so in most of the rest of the world where they have stringent cultural customs that punish women for making those "freedom of choices". But I would say that in the long run even in the west there are consequences...a single woman with kids does end up suffering quite often. She is less attractive as a catch if she has more than one or two children; lack of emotional support etc.

[@arturjcrebelo3275]

@@onesquirrel2713 Collective society are in verge of bunkrupcy (in my country Portugal they are lower the help to single mothers, they start to see if they give more help to them, the numbers grow of single parent(mothers) families) and Only Austria and Portugal are doing something to stop this madness of no marriages and a lot single mothers (that need help from the state). And the women start to see that man with money are aware of this trend and they have a lot of careful about using condom and dispose the condom in the toilet, and a lot more single man are starting to make vasectomies at young age, one dude make one at 25 years he was afraid because in england one bitch lie to him and was pregnant (for his luck because he have a lot of money and do business in UK and Portugal, the bitch have a miscarriage at 14 weeks. And they start to see the consequences by choosing to be a single mother. The young women see that they lose all the sexual power that bring her goodies, they loose a lot of their sexual power (even the most beautiful ones) when they have a child out of the wedlock.

[@david8905]

I agree Heather, the use of the word "toxic" in describing the feminine or the masculine is in and of itself...toxic. The use of this word in that manner is not helping the difficult challenges of relations between men and women. Save "toxic" for discussions about chemical spills or radiation leaks.

[@magepunk7711]

I want to disagree a moment with a point that is made. MGTOW and MRA's are not making generalizations, they are making observations about female nature, family courts, men's issues, and contemporary societal norms. This might be considered "right wing", but as a man who had a DV restraining order pulled on him simply for leaving a woman that I wasn't even married to, I have a right to be a little taken aback when she didn't even have to prove anything in the state of California to frame me as the bad guy. Now I am out 3000 dollars for a lawyer to make sure it didn't become a permanent order and lose my rights and she is out the cost of a TRO, which is a out 35 bucks. All this just to be vindictive for leaving her. The big mistake people make with the MGTOW and MRA community, is they see them as a bunch of incels, or misogynists, when they have had the deepest parts of their trust violated and have no recourse other than to avoid marriage and walk away, or risk being destroyed. For that, these individuals have nobody to talk to. Psychologists generally work under a feminist paradigm. Society tells us to suck it up, and the feminists, who cry about toxic masculinity, will call us misogynist for walking away. It's a no-win situation. So there is no support structure for men, we have been caged by this lie of "Toxic Masculinity" with no way out, While women can cry victim when the entire game is rigged for them. Any wonder men have a hard time regulating emotions?

[@WhoTookMyMirr]

As with any group, people see the most outspoken members of the group first, since they are the loudest and make the most ruckus. By only seeing those who call themselves MGTOW and MRA use actual talking points like "the Old Days were great because women were subservient to men", it paints the whole group as the worst of its members. Not just MGTOW and MRA, though. There are classic feminists who despise the 4th wave intersectionality bullshit, but because those members are the most vocal, they get the most press. Human beings like to read patterns and compartmentalize. Even when it's affecting our perception of others. Just like how you were compartmentalized and read as "aggressive man" by law enforcement and the judicial system.

[@MonaMarMag]

Violence can be not only phydical but also mental , lets not forget about that . Mental violence is even worse because is more difficult to prove it .

[@jembartlett]

The other day I was sitting in a park alone eating my lunch, lost to a deeply engaging daydream. A middle aged woman approached me and aggressively demanded to know why I was taking photos of her. Astounded, I said "what?". She pointed to something I was holding in my hand and said: "you're holding a camera. I saw you taking photos of me." I held up the "camera" in question: it was a small black thermos, filled with a protein smoothie. The woman, upon realising her absurd, deluded, man-hating, error, didn't have the decency or courage to apologise. She took out her phone and pretended to text someone, and just turned and walked off. I wish I could say this was an isolated incident, but I fear it's not. Scary world these days for us men.

[@WhoTookMyMirr]

I think she was just an idiot.

[@jamesbell2682]

So how did you make your camera look like a Thermos and can you share the pictures on line?

[@IllevensKO]

if a scared woman not apologizing to you is a scary world than you're the first person i wouldn't even call a men. I rarely see people so seemingly unaware of what others go through ...

[@stevengruber57]

@@jamesbell2682 He can't take pictures because it's not a camera.

[@fbvamp]

When you get raped or physically assaulted by a woman, when she follows you home and threatens your life for not talking to her, when you are actually threatened with physical harm then you be scared, until then you are just inconvenienced and frustrated

[@DrTWG]

This woman is great. I'd spotted that 'problematic' has become a standard in the lexicon of the lefty-ideologue . Another fav of mine - "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech" - Yep, you're free to say anything _we_ like.

[@chipanndale1468]

A simplified explanation of the point she's making at the 18 minute mark. Men choose their mates for their ability to provide children. Woman choose their mates for their ability to provide for children.

[@infowolf1]

@ chppandale absurd. both choose mates for the ability to turn them on. many don't want children. or not at first. this notion of motive for mate choosing ignores love and passion. such values do exist as you describe, but they are really toxic.

[@Yattayatta]

@@infowolf1 You do not understand biology at all, someone turning you on means you want to mate with them, wanting to mate is your biological drive to produce children. Come on dude, that was a terrible comment.

[@infowolf1]

that is not a biological drive to produce children. that is a biological drive to get pleasured, by yourself or another you are interested in, and that drive is the trap to get you to reproduce. knowledge sex causes babies is not inherent. I recall one humorous, I guess, story of a girl whose family thought that not telling her about sex would keep her from doing it. well, she got pregnant anyway. in a monogamous species, sex drive is focused on a particular opposite sex party. a variety of voles is monogamous but the male if an oxytocin blocker is injected, becomes promiscuous. normally he is monogamous. none of this has to do with knowledge or culture or anything. our prolonged childhood condition makes monogamy likely, indeed only the rich usually practice polygamy though sleeping around is an option in lots of cultures. in Polynesia a long time ago you were expected if female to be a virgin at marriage - but sex with a man who wasn't of that tribe or that island, like a sailor for instance, didn't count. jealousy, sexual exclusivity drive, is found only in monogamous animals, and is shown as a trend in us even when other options exist. in promiscuous "free love" colonies there was always a tendency to settle to one partner preferred over others after a few months or years. cultures that were officially promiscuous nonetheless showed jealousy. animal males usually compete for geographic turf, which incidentally gets them females who like that location. proximity of another male is more a dominance issue than a sex jealousy issue. there are a few exceptions where there seems to be a polygamy producing variation. anyway, your biology fixation ignores that for humans what is a turn on varies wildly by individual and is heavily driven by media and what they are used to seeing, whether to choose that or go for the exotic they are not used to. less boring. lots of women who were plain janes had a kind of presence about them that got them plenty of attention. so it is you who don't understand HUMAN biology - which is variable and driven by several things. history and cross cultural and even same culture different epochs will show that. even the changing popularity of redhead vs. brown hair vs. blondes for one thing, a lot is just a fad. some men want skinny some are chubby chasers. the human is not a simple animal.

[@Yattayatta]

@@infowolf1 Again you don't understand biology, you have needs because your biology dictates it. Men choosing chubby girls, skinny girls, what have you is an adaption, everyone competing for the top female would be a disaster, so you have adaptions where people try to go different routes to reproduce. Your needs drive you, without them your subconscious would make you apathetic, several studies done on people that have undergone severe brain trauma proves this. If you never feel thirsty you wouldn't drink, if you didn't feel hungry you wouldn't eat, if you didn't feel sleepy you wouldn't sleep, and if you didn't feel turned on you wouldn't reproduce. Your conscious understanding of the underlying processes does nothing to alter this. Sleep wasn't understood for the longest time, but not sleeping didn't do you much good. Why does your palate tire of eating the same food every day? Even if you don't know and you can't consciously reason why, your subconscious knows it will lack certain nutrients if you only eat one type of food. Your needs drive you, not your conscious efforts to understand your actions. If you want to learn more I recommend reading the righteous mind by Jonathan Heidt.

[@infowolf1]

sex isn't a need like food and water. sure the biological drive is designed to reproduce BUT REPRODUCTION ISN'T ON THE TYPICAL MIND OFTEN AN EFFORT TO AVOID IT. you understand your actions are the result of feelings the origin of which you may or may not understand and don't care about anyway. all of this is irrelevant to the issue of people trying to seduce each other. glancing at the description of the book, it is yet another effort to tie morality and politics to unconscious drives. sure, that plays a role. but how much the group tribal etc. tendency is biological and how much taught is an open question. human societies vary wildly with external angles a strong driver on how they develop. did you know, for instance, that neither group living baboon etc., nor group living lions do so by biological nature? each generation has to be taught to stay with the group. or they will go individual. and die. apparently these critters descend from animals that were too tied to familiar locations to leave and follow the retreating forests as the great veldts etc. developed. in those days, those that found that working together made them safer from predators, and/or more effective as predators, survived, and taught their young. who taught theirs. etc. loose association occasionally is one thing, organized group living is another. the point is, that reproductive origin of a drive doesn't relate to the drive itself operating or not. a woman known to be sterile or hoped to be sterile is not a turnoff in itself except to a man who is extremely interested in having children, and that is a conscious type of ideological thing. we aren't born knowing these drives' purpose.

[@spartacusforlife1508]

Generalision is a huge problem in the politics of relationships. The idea men leave just to get a " younger model" is much overplayed and the idea men leave simply because their wives take them for granted is much underplayed. Men quickly understand in a relationship that they are no longer first priority when children arrive, logically they can understand that but taking second fiddle to shopping, the house etc etc is not.

[@amandapoyner8141]

Fabulous. Finally, someone having something to say that heals the relationship gap. Heather, thank you for speaking so well … for us all (Men and Women alike). Ha!

[@driveagoodmanbad642]

I'm glad that Heather and Brett have each other. Nothing like a reasonable person to speak to at the end of the day.

[@joer9156]

With respect, I think you are both missing the point somewhat about MGTOW (and for the record I'm not MGTOW, MRA or PUA, though I do find that all those categories are saying something that's worth listening to). From what I can gather, MGTOW isn't saying that men and women can't co-exist collaboratively. They're saying that men and women can't co-exist collaboratively under the current social, cultural and legal framework in the west. This is an important distinction that I think you may have missed. Thank you for your work.

[@ljr6723]

Absolutely

[@Captain_MonsterFart]

Any time I have read anything "MGTOW" all I see is bitterness and whiny resentment, and no acknowledgement that there are two sides to any relationship. The dude had his role in the disaster.

[@hushedtones7168]

It's ok though Islam or china will bring their own framework.. when west has become too weak and confused to fight back. women should help those trying to fix the framework we have here in the west before it's too late and we all have separate working space, mandatory work uniforms, etc.

[@butterflymage5623]

@@Captain_MonsterFart it's not that did t have a role to play, it's the fact that family court predominately takes so much from the guy unless their is irrefutable proof of women doing wrong doing. California for instance if your married for less then ten years then men pay alimony for half the time that they were married. If over ten years then the rest of her life. Literally until she stops breathing and is legally pronounced dead. No matter if the split was without any wrong doing from either party and they just realised they didn't work. No matter if she has a job that allows her to look after herself.

[@seanwilder7924]

true

[@hebber1961]

At around 14:00 she says women don't get together and talk about getting a better man. They absolutely do... a lot. Not all, but a lot. Most of it is some sort of "sisterhood" thing or jealousy that they don't want their friend happier than them so the tendency is to tear the friend down. Seen it ...live, many times and the media glorifies it.

[@ljr6723]

I should think Heather Heying and David Fuller would applaud MGTOW men for NOT using violence, which is their source of power, but rather are walking away. What they are saying in many cases is vile and vicious and nasty, and as applied to all women is not true, as Heather points out. But their actions are just what is best, given their perception of the world, right or wrong. They are abdicating violence by avoiding the circumstance altogether. Do actions speak louder than words in this case? The other point not touched on, which drives MGTOW, is the legal situation, which rewards women for acting badly, and does have the effect of increasing their numbers. And the risk assessment by some men in that situation is such that they have decided not to invest.

[@aali4929]

MGTOW are pathetic losers. But hey, do whatever you want with your lives.

[@CE-vd2px]

@@aali4929 please explain more about why

[@boatrat]

[To LJR AND Cody Evans] "... violence, which is their 'source' of power..." If they (or you) believe THAT... I'd assess that as a pretty good definition of "Loser". They've chosen to concede the whole field of play to those who DO use violence as their only source of "power". "All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."

[@heimdallsgate6141]

The "mgtow" went after Po the person

[@ChristopherHayles]

I like how they dismiss the manosphere as being the reflection of the feminists, but also acknowledge several core red pill concepts. The only one they seem to dispute is AWALT.

[@painbow6528]

If, as a man, I wear clothing that sexualises or reveals my body, I'm potentially threatening to women. If I criticise a woman for wearing clothing that sexualises and reveals her body, I'm slut shaming her. She has the right to wear whatever she wants.

[@stefanfarrell1732]

Heather is remarkable. Unafraid to tackle some of those truly scary questions in the pursuit of truth.

[@boatrat]

I can respect what you're trying to say. But by definition, questions can only be "scary", to those who willfully shun the truth. Or the concept that there can even be such a thing as objective truth. (The latter being just another way of saying the same thing: refusing to acknowledge demonstrable reality. Either for the purpose of clinging to a comfortable delusion, or for perpetuating a tyrannical agenda. Or both.) In short, it's the old aphorism: "Ya ain't gonna learn what ya don't wanna know."

[@stugrant01]

Not that remarkable. Heying says that woman CAN lie, but cannot fathom that Christine Blase Ford was lying because "Ford had no motive to lie". In spite of Ford's "fear of flying" lie while flying to Tahiti, etc all the time. And Ford's "need of an extra front door due to clausterphobia" lie when records show that she converted an area of the large home into an office with its own door in order to rent it out for profit. I would have to call her misandryst.

[@deviantvc]

What's scary here? Heather is brave but.

[@stanleymcomber4844]

One thing that Heather failed to mention is the absolute importance of women raising their young men, and teaching them - warning them of the dangers the young females (can) employ against them. Manipulating and them into situations that are causing (in my opinion) all of the problems we have today between the sexes. One sided marriage laws, social constructs that make men guilty before proving guilt, etc.. The importance of women being home and able to teach and raise her children, equipping them with the tools for success is paramount. It is something that we have lost with the “liberation” of western women. The value and intelligence required to accomplish this is by far more valuable than any position in any company. Are women capable and intelligent enough to run companies? Some are, just as some men are. But this comes back to the cart and the horse, which goes first? Would we have had any of the great men in our history, without their mothers raising them? Success doesn’t just happen. Great civilizations don’t pop out of the ground, and great men or women, don’t fall out of trees.

[@klimtkiller]

a man has his power from his strength and a woman has her power from her sexuality. this is so true. the only issue is that things like physical assault/violence is illegal (as it should be) so men cant use this power; men cannot use their strength as they please. but women can use their sexuality all they wish, and this is the problem.

[@pseudonamed]

the difference is women's sexuality doesn't force men to do anything. men can choose to resist it if they have self discipline. it is not equivalent to violence, hence not a crime.

[@klimtkiller]

@@pseudonamed i'm not arguing that having sexual value should be a crime. i am saying that women have the upper hand in society due to her sexuality. Yes, men can try and resist this, because otherwise men will whiteknight for women, give them validation, treat them better etc. I wish men did resist this and not give women so much attention, but unfortunately this is what is happening. men are enabling women to have a princess complex, with the help of social media & the internet. It is similar to how parents enable their child to be spoiled by buying them everything they want. Unfortunately, this will never happen because having sex/getting a girlfriend is, for the majority of healthy, heterosexual men, necessary for a healthy psychological wellbeing. without it, men become miserable.

[@msabigailflurm1163]

You’re all pretending that women are totally asexual and devoid of sexual needs and wants, and that men are never sexually attractive

[@user-uw3fi2zg4t]

@@klimtkiller having sex is not a need and a necessity for well being, and we all should be able to resist this weakness, and in case of desperation be able to talk to god and fast to ask for guidance, many of us lost this and are helpless but is really all we need, and many times you will just find the woman you need this way.

[@warsofparadigm]

@@user-uw3fi2zg4t "weakness." This is an interesting perspective on a naturally built-in human function. Without this "Weakness" human would go extinct but I think I understand what you mean.

[@warsofparadigm]

Feminism is MGTOW. MGTOW is Feminism. Two sides of the same coin. The only people who benefit are the ones who perpetuate the narrative that these thinking patterns feed on. The real victims are the men and women who don't believe in either but are still forced to navigate through the lands mines that these pathologies have laid in social interaction between the sexes. This dynamic seems to only exist in countries that have been indoctrinated with "western thinking." I wonder why that is. Feminism/MGTOW is nothing more than a psychological trap that countless women and men have fallen right into it. We can talk about it for years but it will forever be the same because we are simply not equipped with the discernment needed to check our egos and deal with the problem as it is.

[@johnsinger9156]

Thanks Rebel Wisdom for providing a quality, unbiased interview with very impressive guest, Heather Heying. I was drawn into a captivating, even-handed, well informed and impressively responsive interview. We need truth such as this to evolve and to transcend the ideologically-fueled mire we presently find ourselves in. Great guest, great questions, superb interview. Thank you

[@billybrooks1]

I love hearing someone talk about how boys are in school and that's ok. Stop trying to change boys. Change the way they are taught

[@Intoxicatious]

She and Jonathan Haidt have really perfected that "telling you a secret in a broom closet" way of speaking.

[@curiousabout1]

The way she winds down into a whisper is irritating to me, but your comment made me lol.

[@edmorrison5645]

Replace "toxic masculinity" or "femininity" with "bad behaviour" and you can make the same points without being sexist.

[@ramsa01Yt]

So, birthrate is dropping, families do not form, both men and women are angry at each other, feminism faights against MRAs and there are many signs that the society is becomming disfunctional (inevitablr economic collapse due to insane amounth of debt usa had taken to serve mostly women’s needs). Everything becomes uncertain to such a degree, that boys no longer want to defend such a system and become openly agressive. What is the hint from evolutional biology perspective for a species to survive? Or is it inevitable for civilizations to end after they let for individuals to forget their gender roles imprinted throughout millenia?

[@Amocoru]

I have an immense amount of respect for Heather for keeping the conversation going without being toxic. Everything I've seen from her is always so enlightening and interesting. This is the type of woman that should be president one day when it happens.

[@Preest80]

Heather Heying interview?! Oh ya!! Always love hearing her take on things!

[@k9px]

I'm a guy and men rarely interrupt me in a debate... but women always do it... because they think that is how they win an argument with a man. Men with men don't do that because they know that if they keep up its gonna result in a fight... but women know they don't need to fear that. These sort of women abuse their power over men...

[@FerociousPhilosophy]

very few men and women are capable of transcending their animalistic natures. for those who are, if you actually find someone else who can as well.... its a temporary magic that very very few people have ever known. there is a reward for having a high IQ, humility, patience, self discipline, and a healthy frontal cortex.

[@ChrisDragotta]

Its all contingent on the man having a big income that is earned with little effort. If its a pain in the ass for him, as it usually is, he will grow to resent the whole thing.

[@swerremdjee2769]

So you are saying people with an high iq or those who say they have a high iq are humble?

[@swerremdjee2769]

What total opposite it is today 🙂👍

[@jacquelinedollard5791]

women while increasingly capable of physical violence, are more frequently violent via psychological manipulation, emotional abuse and passive aggression. I do find it odd that we're still having the same conversation after 60 years with the exception there seems to be less common sense injected into these conversations (generally speaking).

[@A_random_nerd_with_braces]

I love this woman. What a refreshing conversation, I literally feel as if I’m breathing clean air.

[@joppekim]

I actually don't feel very good when I see someone that looks better than me or dresses better. But I suck it up.

[@tinak.p.258]

But the rules of what counts as sexually revealing behaviour change all the time and depend on cultural context. If the norm is enforced that more skin should be covered and women oblige, the theshold for sexual arousal just shifts accordingly.

[@melindabar]

Sexual arousal is a biological phenomenon mediated by cultural factors.

[@tinak.p.258]

The physiological reaction might be, but the stimuli are highly culturally variable. 200 years ago in Western Europe men lost it when they got a glimpse on a naked ankle. In many parts of the world seeing hair is perceived as sexually provocative. If dressing norms become more restrictive or uniform, all that happens is that arousal thresholds become more subtle. The uniform can even become a fetish in itself as it happens frequently with school uniforms.

[@BrianCave]

It’s definitely more complicated than this. It’s the extreme emotional manipulation possible by a woman who moves far from the current standard to get what she wants from a man. Women have always been able to manipulate men through the suggestion that a man might get sex in return. At least those men who are either single or unhappy in their marriage. It’s not common but it’s not rare either and it seems to be getting more common as it it’s stigma is all but gone.

[@lazywhale7364]

@@tinak.p.258 I suspect this is more urban legend than fact. The Victorians and their predecessors were no where near as prudish as we have been led to believe.

[@I_am_Diogenes]

4:30 BS Women are MORE prone to get violent and at an earlier point . Just because she slaps someone and it doesn't hurt them does not mean it is not violence .

[@Varlwyll]

There's no such thing as "toxic" either one. There's only maladaptive behaviors

[@melindabar]

I would like it if "maladaptive" replaced "toxic". Let's start using the new terms.

[@xpusostomos]

Maladaptive? Actually it's adaptive, albeit often annoying for everyone else.

[@dexstewart2450]

Yeah - she makes that point in the first 30 seconds...

[@jimmywrangles]

Well said, I'm going to use that if you don't mind.

[@barkasz6066]

It feels like a pendulum. Women, minorities, etc were way too opressed and neglected even in the near past and there are still perhaps too many instances when it happens in Western society. The answer to that is going to the extreme in the exact opposite direction. The question is, will it ever settle near midway and continue to have small movements to either side, or will the midway always only last for a very brief time before the opposite kind of extreme is re-introduced? As an absolute layperson, I can see a few ways in which the current culture would eventually swing back to the old extreme within a few generations at most.

[@Asha2820]

Heather and Karen Straughn ... really need to talk

[@msabigailflurm1163]

I think Karen has her act together far more as she seems to be far more aware that women are also sexual beings who aren’t just asexual objects

[@HTMR-de8gz]

Collaborative relationships work. We work best when we work together. But you can't work with someone who sees you as a resource, or who sees you as a threat. Have to work together, have to support eachother, and definitely have to enjoy eachother too.

[@Diggles67]

Just watch 1940s film noir and the “femme fatale” to see this played out - Double Indemnity is my favourite

[@Explodezor3]

Heather Heying is all about facts, love her! Thank you for inviting her!

[@vulkanofnocturne]

Stop conflating mgtow and mras please and thank you.

[@iankclark]

@@Whats_in_a_name_1 men's rights activists... different agenda

[@vulkanofnocturne]

@@Whats_in_a_name_1 What he said. Also sometime Men's Rights 'Advocate' for people like me who are not very 'active' lol.

MRA's want fair laws. MGTOW believe that's futile because you can't go against female interest and win (biological impossibility).

[@listener523]

Perhaps you should work harder to differentiate yourselves? Many of the perceptual errors Heather is talking about are repeated by MRAs.

[@jonmulder455]

listener523 they do make the differentiation. Constantly. The problem is that their opposition doesn’t care and the “they’re just evil, radical misogynists” gets exponentially more traction than anything they say.

[@impedimentas9782]

Heather is avoiding the main thesis that the laws in family court are being used as a club against men in large numbers creating an atmosphere of fear and rage. Change the laws heal the wounds

[@bbaattttlleemmooddee]

12:24 On this point: "Most women don't behave that way either." I think that's exactly right, and the missing piece in each extremist camp is that those behaviors, or adaptations, are counter-weighed internally by each individual against the risks those behaviors introduce. One risk that I think goes underestimated is the loss of a long term bond. When men and women pair together they form an emotional bond that provides comfort, stability, and reinforces a positive narrative both personal and shared. In the vein of enforced monogamy, the role of society is to provide the framework where the reinforcing of that narrative is, in fact, considered positive. Sometimes talking about this stuff feels like we've killed the magic of it. Did people in the past need to rationalize the case for love, loyalty and commitment like this before they could love each other? But we're so stubborn in our rationalism and postmodernism that we've forced the adults to sit us down, reveal the mundane explanations before we kill each other and, in doing so, spoil the magic tricks.

[@BeyondSideshow]

Amen to that.

[@davidhawley1132]

The 'loss of magic' I think is part of the 'buffered self' that Charles Taylor talks about. Now everything is optional, and we become aware of our choices and therefore we are slightly alienated from them.

[@xpusostomos]

It provides stability.... Until it doesn't. Then it provides devastation. And looking at the statistics about break ups, not just of marriage but of relationships, this is not rare, this is the norm now.

[@yonchuck999]

THIS RIGHT HERE@@xpusostomos

[@idiocracy10]

The current state of education in America infuriates me. Males are physical beings. They must learn to move, to wrestle, to fight, to control their appendages. This is our evolutionary burden, it is what we evolved to do. We also have to learn to use our brains, to make tools, weapons, shelters, etc. Society has advanced to this point where the baser uses of the male skill set have become obsolete. BUT, if this skill set is lost, ignored, or no longer honored in a society. When that society meets a set back, such as an existential crisis in the form of a war, tidal wave, super volcano, CME (carrington event), or some other more mundane thing like a swine flu epidemic, drought, etc. the society will not have the men to meet the challenge, and the implosion it experiences from the crisis, will be exponentially worse, and possibly become an extinction event. The big question is, when a society evolves to abundance, what can it cast aside as no longer necessary, and what must it continue to honor and support, even though it no longer needs it for its primary source of sustenance.

[@chrisjackson9626]

I find Heather one of the most engaging people on the planet right now. Great all round interview. It's just nice to see two people conversing like adults.

[@gbiota1]

Poundmetoo was never going to do any good. The justification of abandonment of due process, "I believe victims," wasn't born that day. It's been about a decade since I discovered radicals were claiming women never lied about sexual misconduct, and that any innocent person sent to jail in service of their social movement was a necessary sacrifice. They were adamant that they were not mistaken in their phrasing, they didn't back down year after year, and the desire to erode western traditions of justice could have been nothing but intentional having been sustained for so long.

[@jamesdoss1017]

What a freakin sweetheart oh my god.

[@kakn4129]

In the interview the subject's surface is only "scratched". What about the female emotional blackmailing and abuses, present themselves as victims in order to gain control and all associated falseness, which is actually something disgusting.

[@angusmcangus7914]

I could listen to this woman all day. A voice of sanity in the insane wilderness.

[@olivershannon9104]

It’s not toxic masculinity or toxic femininity It’s just toxic people

[@QuetzalcoatlOdin]

Even this rational woman at just before the 14 minute mark, has to think hard about toxic femininity, how do identify it, and what to call it. Sexism is alive and well, and it's against men not women. At least in the West.

[@markmooroolbark252]

I noticed the same. She was scrambling to think of something a woman might do that could be considered toxic. I could have helped her. False accusations, paternity fraud, child abuse/murder, cyber bullying.....

[@infowolf1]

add overprotective and femininity encouraging "masculinity" aka tomboyism discouraging often subtly towards girls, quick to help and sooth instead of encouraging courage and overcoming pain and figuring how to handle difficulties and obstacles in experiments with toddlers and parents.

[@paulwary]

It's simply not true in the workplace that men interrupt women. If a man and woman start talking at the same time, the man is expected to shut his mouth. I've had instances in meetings where, after 3-4 attempts to say something and being spoken over, I have eventually had to keep talking to say my piece. I continued for maybe 5 whole seconds before the woman would stop talking. And of course, at that point, everybody looks at you as if to say "wow, what a cad you are". In the public service particularly, woman can dominate to the point of abusiveness, and play the victim card simultaneously.

[@ethanfrye31]

Why is heather one vocal tone away from whispering the whole time? lol

[@andrewhurst5511]

Really enjoyed Heather speaking for me she delivered what she wanted to say in a calm intelligent way, that felt good to listen to. Thank you.

[@PeterLewisArt]

Great analysis. Carefully considered and non-blaming. Unfortunately this calm discourse is an island in a boiling sea of gender-driven angst.

[@redmoonx]

One of the bests channels out there for people who want to educate themselves in this times of blatant media polarization. Bravo! Congrats!

[@ALulzyApprentice]

I'd like to hear Heather speak about the pill and how it affects women and society.

[@iankclark]

Yes this was little more than a sketchy intro.

[@amac1010]

It is not only "not doing any good for boys" but in fact is doing harm.

[@marsipan8665]

Thank you for this video. And spoken by a woman. It’s important for these taboo issues to be spoken about and from an unbiased view, critical view. Both sides are guilty and we all need to take responsibility. Thank you so much for this

[@AnotherGlenn]

My mother was very violent. She attacked her drunk husband nearly every evening when he got home. Somehow, everyone overlooked her violence because she was a woman and claimed to be the victim all the time. She was trying to get him to beat her so she could call the cops. Sometimes, she did call the cops, even though she had not a mark on her. Years later, she raked his face with her nails, leaving him scarred. If I could go back to my childhood, I would beg him to leave her and take me with him. I get the impression, from the women I've been with, that men are viewed as a means to an end or a tool to be used.

[@iankclark]

On the point about men and women NOT competing with each other traditionally... isn't that the problem now? That they're forced to compete with each other? Rules of chivalry and courtesy be damned?

[@lisamontez9401]

I don't like using the word 'femininity' to describe this phenomenon. Femininity denotes kindness and gentleness, whereas the toxic feminists are anything but. I call it 'toxic feminism'. Or I've heard them caledl 'feminazi's. That works too.

[@annarboriter]

I think she is still apologizing for women by equating it with the trophy bride phenomenon. Women of all classes engage in hypergamy; whereas, only a small percentage of men can ever consider finding a trophy bride, of whom an even smaller amount actually do so. How soon after her divorce is the stbx Mrs Bezos going to be dating again? And does anybody imagine that he will be anything less than a crowned prince or an investment banker?

[@pseudonamed]

as many men will try to date women more attractive than them, as women will try to date men more wealthy than them. Just as most men know they can never get a trophy bride, most women know they can never be one. but everyone can try to get somebody at least a bit better looking/higher status than themself.

[@deirdredowling2251]

Heather you mean well. You are missing so much because of your journey in life.

[@tobygoessailing]

9:49 "Monogamy is enforced by women". 10:02 "When monogamy emerges, usually out of a polygynous system... it is the women who are enforcing the monogamy... It is not enforced by men." Interesting. But this isn't explained at all. How do women enforce it?

[@pseudonamed]

how come in most societies it is women who must be monogamous (or suffer very bad consequences) but men can screw around without punishment.

[@pelonp3691]

Toby I suppose they enforce it simply by choosing not to mate with men who have multiple partners.

[@pelonp3691]

R M. I think it has to do with paternal uncertainty. It’s why men are more concerned with sexual cheating whereas women are more concerned with emotional cheating.

[@LLlap]

They stop fucking around and learn to control themselves like adults should

[@earlliotti5316]

So nice to hear/see healthy Liberalism. I am a Conservative, and I can agree with her on the majority of important points; she nails it all correctly.

[@cango5679]

why label her, and yourself? She's human and you too. And agree on important issues. Is that not enough? I mean - bridge - not divide?

[@earlliotti5316]

@@cango5679 Essentially, yes, on all accounts. That's my intent; to support the bridge, point out common ground. I use labels here to support that point in a specific way, calling attention to two people agreeing, who also having differing points of origin in their perspectives. i.e., I made it political specifically to point that out; no intent to overuse any label. I'm not a big fan honestly of lables, and do approach people "where they're at." However, it would be naive to ignore that liberal/conservative mindsets are part of the human equation, and that perspectives are formed from that inherent bias, and often we are searching for agreement between differing perspectives. These labels do have a place in helping us catalogue behavior...and, I can't believe I just supported using labels lol...well, there ya have it.

[@cango5679]

@@earlliotti5316 Thanks for your answer. Take care.

[@frizzlefry5904]

Sadly you do not understand MGTOW, please ignore the idiots and distill it down to the truths... mgtow saved me and helped me understand my place after a 27 year marriage and being dumped via an affair, im good now thanks too. I also think Heather is over simplyfing and fudging real issues, she spoke alot but said little.

[@WTFSt0n3d]

yes they don't understand. a real MGTOW would never interact with a woman. not even to insult her. i heard some have no human contact at all

[@EsotErikka]

@@WTFSt0n3d no true Scottsman fallacy

[@jesshills6976]

Unfortunately, I was an attractive young woman. Wearing moderate shorts and a tank top was not me asking for attention it was me trying to stay cool in the summer. I did not ask for men twice my age to stare at me and make comments about my body. This made me feel POWERLESS in my own skin. I did not respond favorably when guys my own age or my type did the same things. It's rude and uncomfortable. And we are taught that if we are too aggressive men can respond with aggression. So who defines who is using their feminity as a weapon?

[@telemarq7481]

What a wonderful woman!

[@brendangriffin2677]

Just call it BAD Behaviour! Don't lump it into masculinity. People behaving badly should be addressed accordingly. There is nothing wrong with being masculine. Just like there is nothing wrong with being feminine.

[@someguyontheinternet7856]

I could listen to Heather Heying all day. She provides interesting and well thought out perspectives.

[@ljr6723]

Incidentally, Jane Austin wrote a whole series of stories about hypergamy, in a society where it was expected.

[@mcanibsa3036]

Why cant we have these types of rational opinions in the mainstream? This is so intelligently addressed. Both extremes are wrong and at a common sense level that is intuitive. Great discussion here.

[@Bocbo]

She is wrong about NAWALT. A man's odds for finding a lifelong mate is 1 in 5 from 18-24, 1 in 20 from 24-32 and not a chance in hell after that. NAWALT? Yeah well enough ARE to make it a losing bet. Edit: women's odds are 3 in 5 no matter the age.

[@mgk2020]

Please cite the peer reviewed statistical source of your evidence.

[@Bocbo]

mgk2020 Yeah how bout please. OR...maybe you realize that I was not put on this earth to do other people's homework. I presented something I believe to be truth. If you care to prove or disprove it that's YOUR job. Don't come to me begging for help. Edit: thank you for adding please to your request.

[@kennethslayor8177]

I concluded 30 years ago in college, after taking a course on Female/Male Miscommunications, much the same thing she is describing as Toxic Masculinity and Toxic Femininity. Males are encouraged to personify the natural traits of being physical and sexual. Females are encouraged because of natural traits to be intellectual/verbal and emotional. Individual occur across both, but the trend remains true statistically for identification of sex traits. We grow up with little interest in common as children because of these biological traits, and then in our mid-teens we are unleashed at one another speaking the same words but not the same language because of nuance and rational and necessary differences in experience. When conflicts do occur both sexes fall back on the arena in which they are most comfortable to defend their position and to attack their opponent. For males, this can lead to physical or sexual abuse. For females, this can lead to intellectual and emotional abuse. Of these kinds of abuse or assault, the easiest to recover from is physical damage which can be treated medically. Sexual assault is more difficult to recover from. Intellectual abuse and assault is harder to recover from than physical or sexual abuse. Emotional abuse is the most difficult to recover from of these four, as I studied it in college. The axiom, that it takes two to tango, is generally ignored in domestic conflict situations. Men are treated as the personification of evil, by both women and men, while the harm women do in intellectual and emotional abuse is ignored or treated as deserved by the male simply because he is male. The only aid a male is provided in such a relationship is that he must "suck it up", "take it like a man", and "deal with it" because she didn't hit him. It does not matter to society that a woman berates and belittles a male with psychological abuse without relief, because society will blame him for not being able to take her malice: they will blame the victim who lashes out, or back, the only way he knows how to gain relief after being cornered and abused - with physical violence. These are my observations, and I am fortunate to have witnessed this particular pattern of abuse happen without being the direct recipient of it. The damages in my childhood were different, though I do remember generalities that were also abusive. For example, I remember asking about ERA. The answer I was given by my mother was that it was a law to make men and women have to live according to the same standards. Then she stated to her son, me, that she did not want ERA to pass because she did not want to live down to the standards of being male. I find this condescension and denigration of males to be typical of today's feminists who are female supremacists.

[@Pengalen]

I can believe Heather may have encountered "toxicity" among mgtows, but I have a harder time believing she's ever actually talked to any MRAs if she makes that statement. I suspect she is not well informed enough to distinguish the two. Apart from that, Heather is so very real, and I love this about her.

[@Chloe2000mm]

This is by far the most balanced and intelligent discussion I've heard on KZbin regarding the various issues associated with relationships between men and women. To some extent, one of the byproducts of social media algorithms is the tendency to offer and promote videos with more extreme, negative content to viewers. Of course, the ability to be completely anonymous contributes to this as well, as Heather Heying explained. The result is that people expressing moderate viewpoints get drowned out by the more aggressive ones on either side. Hopefully, discussions like this one will begin to get more attention and feedback.

[@Zomfoo]

Very mixed bag interview. Many good things said. Many inaccurate things said. Ultimately the issue is this: what men want matters, too. Women can’t decide what we desire. Right now the western woman is, especially in the current socio-legal context, unappealing to a growing number of men.

[@sandibrockway7680]

as the pornography seems to be more popular than ever. have you checked out the sex robots for men?

[@bbaattttlleemmooddee]

The problem with the idea of toxic masculinity is that it isn't accompanied by a realistic notion of healthy masculinity. Part of the feminist notion of healthy masculinity is that a man should be comfortable in his sexuality, femininity or to abstract it all the way, his individuality, regardless of the consequences. REAL manliness, they imagine, is not giving a fuck about what anybody else thinks and behaving as such. I think this is a low resolution interpretation of men that reflects the limited information that many women are operating with. Here's the evolutionary picture that I must have picked up from Jordan or Bret so I'll try not to butcher it. Men, as the stronger and more expendable sex, interact directly with an ever-changing and threatening landscape of nature, then they determine what is valuable in nature to pursue, and then compete and cooperate with other men at extracting that value. Women need to select the men who are at the top of the hierarchy, but they aren't particular about what exactly the men are competing over. They're only particular about where on the hierarchy the man is placed. So they've evolved to identify when a man is high value, but not what makes the man high value or to particularly care what that thing is. I think that's reflected in the way "confidence" is invariably named as one of the most attractive traits. What exactly is confidence? Feminists have told me, I gather from so many of their words, that confidence is the absence of insecurty. But confidence isn't the absence of insecurity because confidence stems from the ability to integrate one's insecurities. Like the term toxic masculinity, confidence is a low resolution representation of what it is that women are selecting for. Though it's easy to imagine why women might be the authority on identifying masculinity, it turns out that women do not intrinsically understand what masculinity is, and the term they've invented to characterize it demonstrates that misunderstanding.

[@shakesvenkat6651]

Well put !

[@alexnorcal3209]

Very balanced, PBS could only hope to be this enlightening

[@Supreme_Lobster]

What's PBS?

[@Onlinesully]

I had never heard this lady speak before. She presents a good balanced discussion. We could all do well to discuss big subjects in a similar manner. Find her topics difficult and she discusses them in a balanced way best she can.

[@debrapurvis4408]

Great conversation. Have one with Camille Paglia :-)

[@allanbrent3643]

Debra Purvis - seconded!

[@gabrielsyme4180]

Then a conversation with Heying and Paglia.

[@challengerbrant]

yes, I like Camille as well. She's one smart cookie and her perspective on the social sciences aligns with reality. Well, I think anyways.

[@gabrielsyme4180]

challengerbrant - I LIKE COOKIES!

[@applesandpears9756]

Oh, God!!! Okay, okay, okay... Arghhh.

[@black-aliss]

"But some men gossip and that means toxic femininity OR FEMININITY isn't a thing," argue pseudo-intellectual breadtube pundits.

[@starsine9062]

Heather has brilliant intellectual integrity and honesty. 👨🏾‍💻

[@stellario82]

I have no words to thank you for this.

[@TheFinnmacool]

Men interrupt more than women? News to me.

[@meridiable]

Heather Heying is one smart cookie. LOVE HER!

[@brucebennett8073]

the one natural inborn trait that tends to come from men is "integrity" or "your word is your bond" coupled along with "follow through" which is something women are often lacking in many aspects of their lives.. Women simply don't believe in this "integrity" idea, which falls right inline with what Heather is saying in this video. to most women, words are a tool to be used at their convenience and what they say today has little to no bearing on what they say ( or do) tomorrow as this allows them to keep social circumstances "fluid" thus aiding their subtle yet insidious "manipulation" of people and circumstances for their own gains. So far, I've yet to see a woman that displays this "Integrity trait" naturally. They even tend to resist learning it. and are often quick to suggest that a man should "just leave that job" or "you need to get out of that contract" because following through with the harder than normal jobs, is not what women see as having any value. but all men know that if you don't do what you say, your social trust erodes at lighting speed. Men know instinctively that having a strong "Word Bond" and keeping up with that, regardless of what has to be done to achieve their goal, is nearly paramount in a mans world of business and networking. in many cases its the only thing that can save you when you find yourself in a pinch. Women don't need that type of social trust, as they were never "trusted" past bearing and raising kids & keeping the hearth anyway. Women have a natural sense of dis-trust, no doubt reinforced by schoolyard relational aggression treatment of their peers. They dis-trust everyone as if on auto pilot, so therefore, they shouldn't be trusted either. Only the very few exceptional women have risen above these inborn traits, to a position of trust that can put them in true equality with men.. its not that it was ever difficult to do either.. they just naturally refuse to see it as worth doing. But you can simply ask any man.." Do Actions REALLY speak louder than words"? and he will say "yes" instantly. women on the other hand rarely if ever answer this question with a yes OR even with any kind of conviction behind it at all.

[@BritishPolak_303]

There it is finally! I've found the true voice of reason. What a Clever person this lady is. I'm going to be following her (in the non toxic internet fashion).

[@williamcabell142]

I know this is very superficial...but could that dude dress a little bit better,since he is going to be on camera? Just asking!!!!

[@tommcfadden5232]

Yeah. You're right. You're shallow.

[@msabigailflurm1163]

He and Heather apparently both believe that men don’t need to look good. I agree with you, William. This interviewer is dressed poorly. And as a heterosexual woman, I also like my men to be eye candy

[@squeet6831]

She is wonderful! Exceptional answers!

[@eran5005]

Men are bigger so they must be more aggressive physically? That's not apropos. Men have more testosterone which promotes aggression. And don't get me started on her misunderstanding of MGTOW. I'll just say this: When the older woman gets left by her man for a 20 year old hottie, she gets her weight in gold in alimony and usually the kids too. When a woman dumps her man for another man? She gets her weight in gold and usually the kids too and are you seeing the pattern here Heather?

[@tasfa10]

How incredibly REASONABLE

[@YammoYammamoto]

Fantastic interview... a women that I could almost respect. Just a note on your final word... MGTOW aren't yelling. They're just walking away doing their thing, while women are shreeking shaming words at them. Coward. Nerd. Be a Man. Weakling. Never understanding that the men are stronger than these shreeking women can ever imagine.

[@trog.lodyte]

they cannot handle the fact men can decide for themselves that women are not worth the effort, very threatening to them and their innate insecurity

[@tommcfadden5232]

Amen brother.

[@AlixPrappas]

Thank you for this wonderful conversation and share!

[@friarnewborg9213]

FINANCIAL RAPE ! That is something we need to talk about. Financial Rape of men by women... is all too common, and hardly ever discussed. Which is worse: Financial Rape or Physical Rape? It can sometimes be the Financial Rape

[@tommcfadden5232]

"An epidemic of gold digging whores." Bill Bur