Transforming Identity: The Power of IFS Therapy and Ancient Wisdom | Paul Vander Klay

[@lcbee1]

I am a registered psychotherapist with almost 15 years of experience and I offer Parts Work. I can attest that parts can mislead, they can be self destructive (actively suicidal, self injuring) and they can absolutely reveal the presence of internalized perpetrators. Self destructive parts are trying to solve problems in the best ways they know how, and yet they need to be tended to, and taught new information. Self destructive and resistant parts typically do eventually respond to care and to help. I agree with what you said John about the (Capital S) Self as the part that brings forth integration and is oriented toward that which is real. The part that is able to tend to the parts mediates between the various parts of internal experience. It also has the capacity to facilitate an encounter between internal experience and transcendent things. Absolutely compatible with spiritual practice and belief.

[@jonathonray6198]

Its that mediation that is key. We and (all our parts) need effective mediation.

[@DelphineBrooks]

Hi do you take new patient? I m in NY and looking for a IFS therapist.

[@DrPeterMarsh]

Hey thanks for dropping this. I don’t fully understand but it’s helpful.

[@Tom-jz6st]

As someone who found themselves walking through these waters alone ten years ago, it means so much to hear people speaking about this. Thank you for your courage John in sharing this. I know both its importance and the difficulty in brining it to others. Thank you so much.

[@HardAtWorkPainting]

As a layman getting in all of this, having vague notions through youtube and recent reading. I love hearing conversations like these where I have to make an effort to even remotely follow. It's mesmerizing like watching a fire, but more rewarding when you connect some dots. Thank you both!

[@davidcadogan2696]

In terms of what follows modernity, it seems to me that Ken Wilber’s Integral model may be useful in understanding the individual and communal aspects in a changing dynamic.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

Massively so - although he does some damage to the integrity of the Spiral Dynamics model by attempting to synthesise with Jean Gebser's philosophy, or the chakras, which naturally are not identical.

[@grailcountry]

Nice to see the two of your together again.

[@CoranceLChandler]

Where in the name of Neptune's Frozen surface have you been recently?

[@bobfalconer]

hi i have written an entire book about working with entities in IFS. the others within us. dick schwartz wrote an introduction to this book. this book is a big reason why he is now publicly speaking about this stuff. he used to only talk about it in advanced trainings because he feared that it was so odd it would be used to discredit IFS. i believe working with this is crucial both for healing and for the understanding of mind. thanks for all your great work and videos...bob

[@johnytolkirsz3069]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGOqfZymj6eLhtEsi=gvey45izYLA1wHf7 … and appeared on the STOA for a “shorter” (~90min) introduction here on yt

[@wholth]

And it is a super book of great depth, @Robert Falconer. Also, check out the book Deep Healing and Transformation by Hans Ten Dam, which teaches parts work as inherited through the Brazilian. spiritists and so covers and accepts any manner of entity that might be present in the psyche, from dark to light to alien to personal to archetypal. I am so glad to see good minds broadening to explore their limitless dimensions.

[@suburbangothic_sublimedivine]

I love this conversation between two men I admire. I've long pondered these type of things from jungian and Xian points of view. The issue of [self ?] deception is a difficult one, something I conceptualise like a Mobius strip. Sometimes i think the systemic integrity of the self guards against extreme splinter psyches, and other times I wonder if it just takes other forms. Ah, to have the gift of discernment of spirits, ;) When I was listening to you John last week last week, the image that came to mind was the Last Temptation of Christ, the grace offered by the little girl at the foot of the cross. Its cuts to the crux of this dilemma. The real grace point, is that even if we are mistaken when motivated by truth and goodness, then its imperative that we lean into a grace and compassion that holds for this too. On the other hand be careful when Poodles or Laughing Gnomes follow you home. Dont let them stay too long. "Das war also des Pudels Kern!" From an old piece I wrote on Bowie and Jung: "Jung believed all people have complexes; clusters of emotionally charged images, emotions and ideas “…derived from one or more archetypes, and characterized by a common emotional tone” that influence behaviours. Jung would write “…there is no difference in principle between a fragmentary personality and a complex… complexes are splinter psyches”. In becoming conscious of our complexes, “…provided the ego can establish a viable relationship with a complex, a richer and more variegated personality emerges” (Samuels, Shorter and Plaut). Yet Jung also warned that “…what is not so well known, but far more important theoretically, is that complexes can have us. … The unity of consciousness is disrupted and the intentions of the will are impeded or made impossible”. Powerful complexes split off as autonomous archetypes, like possessions, had “...a powerful inner coherence, it has its own wholeness and, in addition, a relatively high degree of autonomy, so that it is subject to the control of the conscious mind to only a limited extent, and therefore behaves like an animated foreign body in the sphere of consciousness. "

[@dalibofurnell]

This was lovely, thank you, gentlemen ❤ God bless you

[@bencribbin7744]

A pleasant surprise to see Paul here talking about this with John. Paul is also an excellent listener.

[@UpCycleClub]

Awesome! Looking forward to listening to this talk! Thank you, PVK and John.

[@BarefootPhilosopher]

Professor Vervaeke, you've been a blessing in my life. I've been watching your videos for years and have been trying my best to internalize and embody and enact these teachings you've bestowed upon me. I just want to thank you for the light you've brought to my life, and to so many others, undoubtably. Your insatiable curiosity, deeply honest and courageous questing, and selfless desire to share yourself with the world is truly remarkable. I aspire to be like you, and internalize the sage of Socrates in pursuit of the Good. Thank you, sincerely, for your time and attention.

[@BarefootPhilosopher]

This summer, I've read, per your recommendation, The Sovereignty of Good, Bearing Witness to Epiphany, and The Courage to Be. Truly transformative books. I am surprised to say that I am most enamored with Murdoch's work. The way she so straightforwardly frames attention, beauty, and love as fundamental aspects of our daily experience is astounding. Platonic philosophy given a modern poetic elegance that I imagine is hard to surpass.

[@kaydappa]

Vervaeke’s description of the Self reminds me a lot of Robert Assiagoli’s understanding in psychosynthesis

[@Federico_]

Vervaeke, I think the ideas of Dr. Micheal Heiser, the biblical scholar, will be very enlightening to you when it pertains to the biblical context you’re trying to grasp in your relationship with Hermes. I suggest starting with the Unseen Realm.

[@geoattoronto]

IFS: Internal Family Systems which is working with parts = personified aspects of people such as: Parent, Inner Child, Critical Parent, different ages like the ‘eight year old.’ Note there is self therapy and it can be done with writing rather than active imagination.

[@GThomas-qq6mp]

I've been noticing synchronicities. Normally i don't pay particular attention to it as but it seems like a constellation of synchronicities, as I learned from a podcast yesterday. It may be a guiding principle because I've been thinking about what these in depth jungian psychologists online said from "JungToLiveBy" about it being a teleology, a door. This afternoon a fuel truck crossed me on the road with "Vervaeke" as i was dreaming while driving . Another INTP which I love hear speaking and I'll continue to do so. Thank you John for your commitment.

[@GrimGriz]

FINALLY!!!

[@matthewparlato5626]

Yes...this timeline actually frustrated me a bit.

[@strangetheology]

This week man!

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

Hey I know you!

[@IDdrummer39]

🫡

[@christianbaxter_yt]

1:13:15 Yes! Peterson/Pagaeu/Vervaeke/Vanderklay

[@lukedmoss]

If you're interested in understanding self in terms of dynamic systems, I recommend "Complexity of the self" by V. F. Guidano from 1987. It's dense on theory but imo is a mature contribution to dynamic processes of selves and argues that systemic coherence is the main role that self plays in regulation and monitoring, and that a developmental approach is necessary to truly understand. My pitch here isn't great, but it really tries to address what John said he was still working through with his emerging new ontology of self as not monadic or fixed.

[@DragonNo1]

Thank you both; I follow you both because you're helping me in my journey. Encountering IFS confirmed what I was doing intuitively for years. After reading Schwartz and Falconer I came to a similar conclusion as John's regarding the dangers of IFS as a spiritual practice. Intuitively I started praying, and today to my own surprise, I reacted to a short claiming that certain women didn't deserve to be loved that "as a Christian", these women were creatures of God. This is the first time in my life I recognize intimately my conformity with this belief. I'm still far from attending mass at a church, but if there's something I'm grateful to IFS (and you both of course - I'm an autodidact), it is that it opened me to the embodied experience of love and compassion.

[@DeadLevelled-ku8tq]

Robert Moore's neo-Jungian work on the 4 primary archetypal circuits of the Quaternio/diamond body, and the relational axis shared by the ego, the system-self and the Archetypal-Self would help map out these structures.

[@jason-iy7vs]

Woahhh Jordan wants a JP JV JBP PV convo! Can't wait

[@sean2662]

Regarding parts' potential for lying - perhaps there is some allegiance each part owes to a specific outcome

[@sean2662]

Perhaps all oil has allegiance to fire and wont mix with water.

[@CrunchyBuncher]

I totally get why john is hesitant and careful about talking about the nature of jesus, but... he's expressing something so profound and real. More real than was ever articulated to me growing up as a catholic (I'm a none). It's a shame that people might interpret that as being heretical

[@Holybosss]

Anyone know which ifs self therapy book he’s talking about ? 6:30

[@GrimGriz]

27:33 - Meaning Crisis as Ego Death is new take to me...

[@kanenas9607]

My Daemon is Hermes also. I’ve read maybe ten books my whole life. I’m 47 years old. I can tell you this for a fact. The teacher will appear when the student is ready. The student is ready when he acknowledges the teacher. From that point on, for humility the teacher will give the student all the GNOSSIS and for gratitude the teacher will give the student all the SOPHIA. The student will then have both the arrow of gnossis and the bow of interpretation then he will hit the target of rhythm with reality across time. Bounded by it and infinite. Remember this. Our experience is limited by the formation of our structure. Just turn your head or learn something new and your experience changes. The infinite is beyond the curtain of our inhibiting structure. We think that knowledge is in the brain yet the brain is last to get the information and is on a need to know basis. The body is the true GENIE. Reality is alive and breathes light. The entire thing is intelligent and alive. We are instruments singing in the winds of consciousness. Telepathy is the true communication. I talk to the sun, the moon, birds, trees and they are all my teachers. Reality inhibits therefore aims. Match the aim and be favoured by time. The only judge of intelligence and truth. All things serve their origin therefore the truth is not ahead of us… it’s behind us. Enough for now… Enough for you to circumambulate. John, if u can find me… call me.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

Love Paul and John discussing this! I had a clarifying vision after therapy once. And several intense images durning emdr sessions.

[@sylvanbear7125]

Paul is the Christian for whom non-Christians feel a great deal of affection, almost as much as they feel sympatico with Jonathan Pageau.

[@jeremyfirth]

Regarding the question John asked at 54:00 about finding internal unity so that you can be more externally unified, and is that rols only played by Christ for a Christian, i wanted to mention reading the lives of the saints as a practice for unifying my internal self. The saints point us at disordered parts of ourselves and call us to integrate ourselves into the vision Christ has for us, both individually and collectively as his body.

[@jeremyfirth]

Ah you mentioned it a few minutes later. Thank you for sharing your journey with us.

[@logoimotions]

Jeremy, Did that contemplation include dialogic elements? Theresa of Avila had a dialogical element to her relation to Christ. Feels like contemplation can get close to that practice through a type of moment of insight

[@VigiliusHaufniensis]

Dear John, A lovely conversation, IFS is beginning to make me really interested. As somebody with a more freudian frame the idea of comunicating with defenses instead of analysing them is very alien to me, but if this works it would be great because analysis is expansive and long, and IFS could be done on ones own just with a book, which sounds almost subversive of the whole analytic tradition to me, very exciting idea. Yet, you said, it might be a way of bullshiting oneself, and it somewhat sounds a lot like magical thinking, animism and omnipotence of thought. I'm very grateful that you are critical despite the very promising outlook. Anyway, i really hope you do a talk with Anderson Todd on the topic of IFS, would love to hear from him again since his channel seems to have gone silent, sadly.

[@VigiliusHaufniensis]

I mean, next to the problem of infinite regress of parts (a finite structure of parts may produce an infinite metonymy, a cacophony of schizoid discourse in one's head without endpoint), I feel like talking about parts in the sense of subpersonalities is an unnecessary doubling of worlds (or so Aristotle said about the ideas of Plato). If we observe the behavior of a person through a Freudian lens, we may claim that a certain motor output was caused by an active wish. IFS would say the motor output was caused by a subpersonality having an active wish. The same goes for fears, beliefs, and so on. I feel like the notion of subpersonality falls prey to Occam's razor because they seem to introduce an entity that is unnecessary to explain behavior. The same behavior can be explained quite well without making use of this new entity (part/subpersonality). Dr. Vervaeke, I know you are a philosopher and hence familiar with Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations. I have the slight suspicion that a concept analysis in this sense would reveal these parts as linguistic entities, artifacts of the way we use our language in talking about ourselves. Also, how exactly does IFS define personality? Because we could as well observe a person from the outside with all their different behaviors and emotions and then say something like, "the whole of all these expressions may be the personality (all the stable wishes, defenses, and so on)." To talk about subpersonalities doesn't make sense because as the protectors don't have defenses but are the defenses themselves, they may be thought of as a piece of a personality (although these spatial metaphors for the psyche seem to imply that it has an extension into space) but not a personality themselves, since we would define personality as the whole of the parts. If we then claim the parts themselves are personalities because they themselves are made up of defenses (which IFS views as parts themselves), we have an infinite regress of yet smaller subpersonalities disintegrating into yet smaller ones and so on. I guess what I'm trying to say here is, I can't see what predicate the part has that makes it different from a desire or fear or anything of that sort on its own. I feel like it might be a purely linguistic entity, a way of speaking in the language game of IFS, the introduction of an unnecessary entity to explain something we can explain with fewer terms just as well. It also seems to be characterized by a sort of libidinal introversion, a turning inward of interest as if oneself was an autarkic whole being, able to fulfill all one's own wishes purely through fantasy (you see the Freudian mechanism of dreams and fantasies of wish-fulfillment at work here, hence it might be a way of bullshitting ourselves into schizoid daydreamers-I'm exaggerating here of course, John) and independent of the external objects. I hope this wasn't too convoluted.

[@corvinrick3644]

@@VigiliusHaufniensis It is only an unecessary doubling of worlds if it turns out to be useless. If a Language Game offers me the opportunity to come into a different Relation with the World, it should not Fall prey to achieve explanatory parsimoniousness. This is the difference of the „Language of explanation“ vs. The „language of Training“ outlined by Vervaekee.

[@VigiliusHaufniensis]

@@corvinrick3644 thank you, do you know where he talks more about these types of language?

[@jrhemmerich]

At 109:30 there is the question of whether an internal part can lie to us-maybe tempt us to self-deception. I’m not sure but what this makes me think of Jesus’ admonition that we beware that the light within us not be darkness, for then how great is that darkness. (Mat. 6:23). This was in the context of a deceptive self-righteousness. A kind of teaching that thought it had arrived but had not. Now, this doesn’t seem to be an argument one can never come into the true light, but the caution, that there will be temptations to miss-locate it. As an example Moses said in the law that there was one coming who was greater than him, and Israel should listen to him. And Jesus claims to be that one, and so he warns the religious thinkers who ponder the law, that they be careful that they not see the law as an end in itself, but as pointing to this greater light, this coming one. So it’s not that the law had no light, or that John the Baptist has no light, but that their light was to point the way to the light. There can be many false lights that can become dark if they don’t function as they should to point to the true light. So the Apostles John warns, “little children, keep yourselves from idols” 1 Jn. 5:21

[@debrab2766]

You are a great minister but when you have guest visitors, the conversations are very difficult to follow as we are simple folks with no university degrees. Is there any way to dumb it down?

[@DeepTalksTheology]

I could see this conversation being enhanced by adding some voices from say a non-Western Pentecostal context where engagement with transjective agencies never disappeared. The question of whether parts/“allies” could deceive you or lead to your bondage & the ruin of others would be find a long list of cautionary anecdotes that could add some beneficial opponent processing.

[@flagshipson]

Like who?

[@johnmartin2813]

Is there any difference between IFS and writing a novel?

[@gregoryvee4304]

“Isee the Middle Kingdom between Heaven and Earth Like the Chinese call, the country of their birth.” (Territories - RUSH - from their Roll The Bones album)

[@kipling1957]

Paul goes off on so many tangents I loose track of what his point is and of the original question he is trying to address.

[@kipling1957]

I can’t square IFS, where we treat agential parts of us as helpers from when we were traumatized, and the Christian idea of sin.

[@leedufour]

Thanks Paul and John!

[@rodcameron7140]

This was a very good conversation. Way too short for the amount of topics/ideas that I wanted to see unpacked, but good nonetheless. IFS is new to me, so I paused to do some research before continuing. I would have liked to have heard your thoughts on how the IFS concept, though obviously useful, can serve to obscure the achievement of the integrated self. (With the integrated self being our present understanding of ourselves coupled with the tools needed to be able to identify and integrate/grow from new realizations about ourselves as they are uncovered.) The concept of IFS seems to lend itself, far too closely for my liking, to a psychological undercurrent of a lack of responsibility for ones self and ones growth. (Yes, I am going to do far more research on IFS before I form anywhere near a firm stance on that.) I also find it difficult to follow when people start talking about the (capital S) Self and "part of the one" concept from different religious/philosophical beliefs. Simply because I see my "self" or "consciousness" as a mental process that receives compressed inputs from various subconscious and unconscious processes that, as a whole, make up my self and my motivations. The idea of giving up our agency, the eternal infancy promoted by the idea of a savior, and more on what are our basic motivators as humans. All of those concepts I would love to hear a dialogue on. But hey, loved the video! Thanks.

[@EricYoungArt]

Just finished it, beautiful conversation. Will need to listen over many times.

[@EricYoungArt]

Finally! I've been looking forward to this conversation. 😊

[@elektrotehnik94]

30:28 "...and it's like no no!... Choose, choose." 🏆❤️ GrimGriz, this clip is for you ; you have officially successfully colonized. 💪 Well done! ❤

[@salkhan3105]

Instant download to listen on the walk tomorrow:)

[@Joeonline26]

Paul Vander Klay really does have the ability to talk for hours without ever actually saying anything...

[@mattspintosmith5285]

If a Unitarian is allowed to defend a Calvinist, I respectfully disagree about PVK.

[@evanhadkins5532]

For any Christians here, we need to think hard about 1Cor.12:12ff - Paul's vision of the individual in / making up the body of the Christ.

[@Angel-cu5mf]

what are you thinking ?

[@evanhadkins5532]

@@Angel-cu5mf In modern secular terms Paul ends up with a combination of virtue ethics (each body part and its function is valid) and care ethics (each member is entitled to equal care). I think this promises a way forward for modern politics - a harmony that sees diversity as a positive from which all benefit rather than a threat.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

As a former Cognitive Behavioral clinical psychologist and now ten year Orthodox Christian I am leery of psychological models coming out of “science.” I have adopted “Orthodox Psychotherapy” which is also a great book by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos. I am the sick with sin patient and repentance with cleansing tears is part of the healing medicine discovered by ancient desert monastic saints who wrote the Philokalia to describe the complete system of healing. Oh, and demons exist and can come into a person and influence the person. I went through some IFS in my own therapy BEFORE I became Eastern Orthodox and of course it helped. Now I’m only interested in COMPLETE healing now which requires receiving the real Body and Blood of Christ and the ascetic struggle towards Theosis, becoming more “like” God, BY His Grace! I had THREE formal exorcisms before my Orthodox baptism… I had a past full of idolatry in a Hindu group. Don’t mess with entities. Come to God in The Ancient Faith! Christ heals COMPLETELY. We have to let go of our idol worship of our intellect too!

[@Secretname951]

Isn’t there something in the bible about testing spirits by asking if they recognise Jesus Christ as lord? Are those spirits able to lie?

[@AphraelPilotson]

Really enjoyed the convo and seeing so many familiar faces in the comments section 😊 The clip harvest was bountiful!

[@ash_leigh_robyn]

Such an interesting conversation but John your microphone is awful. Or the settings or something.

[@septillionsuns]

We are diagnosing the future awakening as schizophrenia because the demiurge is terrified of us freeing Sophia.

[@KairosDBT]

Another edifying episode. As a human being who is also a therapist and an Orthodox Christian. Wonderful stuff.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Why is it wonderful? Especially for an Orthodox person… really curious…

[@jason-iy7vs]

I too have been waiting for this!

[@Atopos333]

John talking about Theurgy ??? This made my year

[@MaidenMonster]

I agree with Marc about IFS. It has been world changing for me over the past few months. It’s what finally got through to my brain how to process my feelings and emotions and move forward and grow through being in communication with all the parts of myself. And it was your conversations with Seth Allison that finally moved me to seek out IFS. I’m so very grateful.

[@grahampilger6621]

I think of the Self in IFS as a participatory agapic metaphor that affords someone to change. In many ways, I've experienced and thought that IFS secularizes the internalization of a relationship with a voice of agapic love the same love acted out by Christ. I feel as if you could easily replace the relationship with Self and being Self-led as the relationship with Christ and being led by Christ.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Real relationships with Saints are possible! I talk to the Theotokos and especially St John Maximovitch…among others…

[@memanjack]

Wonderful conversation. So much of what I'm hearing seems to be parallel to the machinery of creativity. The boundaries, imaginal, dialogical, flow, meaning making, all are practiced in a creative life. The within us and without us playfully in relation in the making of meaning. Beautiful, true, and good!

[@KillerKabel]

I wonder if all cultures have something akin to muses? My best work never feels like 'my' work.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

45:49 less scientistic ways of understanding “the self” and “identity” is happening for I’ll and for better currently. Tim Keller, six months before he died said he wished he would have enough time to write about identity, also Peterson had an excellent recent conversation with a German organization about identity as well.

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

Oh yay!!!

[@EmJay2022]

Having been around Paul's corner for quite awhile now, his judgment may be influenced by his desire for effective interlocutors and engaging conversations, leading to disingenuous amounts of charity, even if inadvertantly. With that said, don't you think it might be beneficial for you to seek out a pastor or priest who holds a more adversarial perspective on Hermes in order to avoid reinforcing your own biases?

[@oliverjamito9902]

In the beginning there was a Word ("i" AM) and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Same in the beginning with God the SINGULARITY the I AM. The creator

[@cattoes1609]

I am only 12 minutes in and not familiar with IFS, but this sounds a bit like how I was taught to connect with spirit guides. I'm an not a deeply "whoo" person but I did find comfort in the practice.

[@ShannonBoschy]

And the new age has sensationalized this to the point we overlook how simple and obvious this kind of practice is. It’s wrapped in turbans and adorned with baubles and as such is hiding in plain sight, and we are spiritually impoverished for it.

[@jgarciajr82]

So the Self is Being? 🙏❤️

[@MarkDParker]

(1:13:13) The "by the way" heard around the world, or at least throughout the Corner.

[@RonCopperman]

24:20 Huston, ...we have contact.

[@mcmosav]

I forgot what Paul sounded like before he got that leisurely tone from Roman celebrations.

[@ToddCrosby-e2s]

Agree that IFS is powerful. But it's not new. Of course this is all rooted in classical Jungian approaches of Active Imagination. I think that this idea of an otherwordly spirit guide is very typical among peoples like the Native Americans. Often Shamen have guides that are beyond this world that teach them. Through my active imagination, I have had experiences such as yours with Hermes. Notably my interactions have been with Isis/ Black Virgin. However, I have not been able to engage in a sustained interaction ...so am a little jealous. I think that my conservative parents would think that this is very dangerous territory. But i think really that this is the heart of true mysticism...the living heart of all the world religions. And for me, it has imdued me with a renewed faith that i had lost long ago. Now i believe there is certainly something beyond...something bigger and something other. Therapeutically, IFS has helped me completely resolve many problematic complexes. So in that regard, i would say it is truely transformative.

[@colorfulbookmark]

The faith is very often internal (self) and disruptive (by others) and timely manner it is ceased by the progress, when it is very illuminative, it is killed by others's will. It is so said later "internal and disruptive" which symbolizes how it is deceived through longer times of experienced painstaking. The painstaking is involved with not single factor, but pouring of others's will to disrupt it, often came up with intentional omission of "subject in sentence" and mixture of every imaginable but unanticipated constituents forcibly took place. The things of these are ceased by timely manner when people who do not have emergent memory decayed, and really good personality is persecuted, and really evil personality persists. The religious faith are also ceased by this progress, and tortured more than 40 years. It should be aligned as how they did to.

[@projectmalus]

Sure, those who stick up tend to get hammered down, but why? Is the entire species a hyper object and why would that have internal conflict? In your first sentence "killed by other's will" I think there is a distinction there between the person's self as taken or given away where objectification is to be avoided and this makes sense of it, although it does seem like a lot of reverse psychology. Power vs intelligence, on what level? I would say killed by objectification of self, and in that trigger is beautiful information brought right to one's door, your choice to accept and acknowledge, a fine word that slightly objectifies knowledge within a personal space, in order to praise. How is one being attacked, how does one respond. A third thing which can go two ways (objectify or non-objectify) which is a leap or not, but the leap transcends to understanding. Information, knowledge, understanding, giving. But I think there's a hyper object inside the human object (collectively speaking now) which makes a roiling inside. Humans aren't really that intelligent, they are clever and reflect intelligence already there. This cleverness began the information flow, it progresses to knowledge and there's a trigger gate at that point.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus Why you have extracted "objectification" which I didn't say?

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus I didn't say "internal conflict" which I said "internal self was disrupted by others", you misread my replies continually ^^ How one is trapped into this condition is that metaphor was abused by people who intended to abuse conceptual hierarchy, metaphor at the first place would be lie by someone who would like to empty their wrong actions. In this condition makings, man had to exeprience painstaking mode more than 40 years, and when it is requested later to be re-presented, the appliers do it by deception. If you can't see appliers are closed people, you fail to objectify you are using. The conceptual hierarchy abuse is often backed up by principles--this is why one's life is tragic end and laughable by some people.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus The metaphor, if used to do victimization, it is lie that misled people to doubt on someone's personality, then victimized man cannot say it explicit while he is experiencing victimization. It is often abused to fill someone into others's way of thinking, after physical enchroachment applied to the man. So, metaphor and imagination are two important factors to understand one's life, not as you misread my replies as matter of choice.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus Why man is pushed to pit is that metaphor works differently according to know "who he is" and "who he is" is made by conditioned his life. Metaphor works differently by this way: Appliers used metaphor: at the first place, metaphor's ambiguity makes doubts on victimized man, often followed by failure and the failure strengthens the applies Victimized man used mataphor: it makes severe experiences as not known explicit So, victimized man's painstaking mode is compensated to learn things to defend him. These two different thing is predicated "use of metaphor" so it is similarly appreciated as you say "internal conflict" which I say "internal self was disrupted by others" and this is remnant how I was experienced more than 30 years total 40 years, some people intentionally disrupt people to understand it. Please invoke my body has been challenged by such lines of abuses of others's will, but I have been living life without against it many years.

[@jeremyfirth]

1:12:00 or ao reminds me when, in the recent rogan podcast with leterson, Peterson said "let's hope theyre the right slirits" and rogan said "all the apirits are good." In that moment i saw the dangers and naivete of using psychedelics divorced from a cultural framework and a long tradition. Even in that context, these tools are extremely powerful and dangerous. Worse than fire.

[@PsychoBible]

I didn't know Paul would know anything about IFS, so this caught my interest.

[@IDdrummer39]

1:31:46 The fever pitch of this conversation really. The on the ground reality of this thing initially will be dominated by the autobiographical auto-didacts. You wonder if this will have a much slower and more steady churn until some of the conclusions from IFS start to lead people down a path that is more than just keeping the union between my parts, but how to spread that union meaningfully through time and throughout a given community. Then the real WOOSH of IFS will be seen as these things tend to, looking back at them, and going places that we didn’t really expect.

[@athomson8949]

The 'spirit' of the abuser is definitely within. The part adopts the same role as the abuser in order to subjugate other parts which might provoke the dangerous external abuser. The part stays the same age that it was when it first adopted this means of 'protection'.

[@geoattoronto]

I agree. Well put. Thus the inner voice of the abuser is bad - a bad part.

[@monicawilde7107]

Schwartz talks of the IFS concept of Self as constituting both photon and wave of the force driving an infinite and creative Universe.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Beloved a little Child born "i" the Father God of the Living so delight and well please!

[@anthonygarciaguitar]

I think scalability is dealt with through the ecology of practices that’s been referred to by John. From my perspective, particularly ‘mindful arts’ practice mostly supported through music-making. But this can be achieved through surfing painting acting dancing - many of these things are truly supported by Music. Physical challenges, the emotional expressivity the openness and channelling ideas that come from ‘the other’ or ‘our parts’ offer people from all walks of life & skill levels, cultural backgrounds, religious persuasions opportunities to explore and experience and grow through this process in less intellectually define ways. That’s where I see scalability - ironically however I feel this kind of transformation opens people up to philosophical and intellectual reflection.

[@oliverjamito9902]

How else can the SON OF MAN knows?

[@MoeGar-e6e]

I am Legion......😮

[@oliverjamito9902]

Gratitude and Honor unto thee all my Forefathers!

[@joshgarrison7779]

I hardly recognized Pastor Paul on the thumbnail! You clean up nice Paul! Great work John V!

[@PaulVanderKlay]

That's an old picture. I cleaned up younger in 2010 too. :)

[@logoimotions]

Excellent. Thanks men

[@Donni2024]

Finalllly

[@strangetheology]

17th

[@bobfalconer]

Thanks for this great talk. i should have waited to write my first comment until i listened to the whole conversation. Paul, i am glad you were reading my book and i would love to hear your comments . my website is robertfalconer.us

[@oliverjamito9902]

Hosts shared "i" AM will say, if can't recognize the SON OF MAN. Likewise will not recognize Thee!

[@richardmagee9928]

I've borrowed the term 'black-market' as described by Delsol in her observations on the emergence of ‘figures of existence’ despite their supposed illegitimacy: Delsol, C. (2003). Icarus fallen. Ganeri argues that there is actually a 'self' implied in the 'no such things as selves existed' (Metzinger et al.,) camp. Others will avoid making 'metaphysical statements' (when talking about self-disorders) but smuggle a 'black-market self' through the back door, which follows hard materialist intuition on a naturalizable first-person perspective. Ganeri's taxonomy of approaches to self is very helpful.

[@corykobel6117]

Yes! Wonderful!

[@ALavin-en1kr]

Consciousness; Mind; Elements. It is important to see reality; the Universe, and the human as triune. Three dimensions; not one. As ancient philosophy has it; nothing happens without three. There is a movement, (Eliminative materialism and trans humanism) similar to the idiocy of behaviorism of the last century, that attempts to reduce reality to one dimension, claiming that there is just matter; only the material exists, being fundamental to all else. It is important to push back against this idiocy and false narrative that attempts to gain traction as behaviorism attempted to gain traction until it as totally defeated by Noam Chomsky in the last century. The three realms are Ideational: Ideas; Astral: Energies, Physical; elemental (elements; macro and micro). Each is its own dimension. The physical; the elemental is the coat; the energy is the force and the ideational is the blueprint. To define what is real, what it means to be human, is important as false ideologies are always attempting to control the narrative, which similar to communism can cause confusion and suffering, as false narrative are prone to do.

[@louisnault7333]

Really glad John had mentioned the risk of sophisticated self deception in IFS 1:11:00 I’ve worked mostly alone in IFS and self deception has been a significant barrier.

[@gagemurphy777]

John, would love to hear you talk to Martin Shaw. I think he would add to this conversation quite a bit.

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

Bernadette Roberts wrote a great book called What is Self? An Inquiry into the spiritual journey in terms of consciousness. Self IS a function and it is one that can cease before the bodily organs do. Living proof was Bernadette roberts.

[@jakell99]

Paul looks about 30 in the thumbnail (except for the hair maybe). Did he discover a magic spring in italy or something?

[@StephenEmmons-mx5yz]

Would love it if you had a playlist on your channel for IFS videos! Thanks as always!

[@Angel-cu5mf]

it sounds to me like JV is drifting into gnosticism, basically. parts therapy is great but it's a model for treatment not an ontology reality. the gospel of the self or Self tries to do everything apart from God. it's subtle, but it's really enmity against God in the big picture. God is looking at our hearts though, and has great grace towards are errors, thankfully~!

[@rsandy4077]

Last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me 24 and said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul. You must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you.’ In the protestant tradition as well others we believe in these encounters, it seems this experience was like the Damascus road in which the rest of people did not experience it as Paul did, meaning it was ‘internal’ or a particular revelation transcending the location. I believe angels talk to us too but we take it as ourselves.

[@jessezandee9282]

Would love to see you both with Peterson and Pageau

[@kacper3240]

I know a case, where an IFS instructor actually committed suicide, and that actually shocked me as Im a big fan of IFS, but on the other hand I know of case where a instructor of NVC (non violent communication) kept abusing and beating his wife to the point of a divorce. So what Im saying, you can be an instructor or a teacher of a practice but you need other people, to be your mirror. These are great points to wonder, and these kind of questions could further help develop IFS into not only one of the best dialogical practices for healing but bullet proof it for self deception.

[@SB324]

I would love for John to talk to Joscha Bach about IFS. I imagine it would be very enlightening.

[@tgrogan6049]

It's the guru club!

[@TheCoyotemonster]

Two of my favorite podcasters! I echo PVK's closing words. Much love to both of you. I am getting more interested in IFS.

[@oliverjamito9902]

What else ye expect?

[@richardmagee9928]

Ganeri's Triune theory of a naturalised Self should be important in this discussion. He's also a UofT professor, but I haven't heard his name mentioned. There could very well be good reason that I'm not grasping, but his book The Self is pretty germane to John's work.