Travis Stevens on Adapting Judo or Wrestling to Jiu-Jitsu

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In this segment of the BJJ Fanatics Podcast, Olympic Judo Silver Medalist Travis Stevens gives valuable advice for BJJ players who want to explore Judo or Wrestling to improve their take downs. Full episode available on all podcast platforms!
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[@schenksteven1]

Former college wrestler, BJJ blue belt. I have to agree with him. I have yet to roll with a BJJ practitioner who even reacts the right way in the stand-up game (unless they are originally a wrestler too).

[@JustinColletti]

The interesting thing is that they are probably reacting in the “right” way for the sport of jiu jitsu. The setups and stance are totally different. And although it’s true that guillotines and triangles and sumi gaeshi counters aren’t “right” in wrestling, but they are sure right in jiu jitsu! :-) Just as it would take a jiu jitsu practitioner a good amount of training to adapt his single leg and double leg for the sport of the wrestling, it takes some time for a wrestler to adapt his single and double for the sport of jiu jitsu. What makes for a good wrestling technique in the sport of wrestling just isn’t always the same as what makes for a good wrestling technique in support of jiu jitsu. The story with judo is similar. A judo guy who has great judo throws and trips for his sport doesn’t necessarily have a great judo trips and throws for jiu jitsu right out of the gate. …And vice versa. Controversial but true: A BJJ practitioner *could have better judo throws and wrestling takedowns for the support of BJJ than an actual wrestler or judoka who has never studied BJJ before*. Of course that doesn’t mean he can out wrestle a wrestler in the rule set of wrestling, or out throw a judoka in the sport of Judo! But this works both ways. Due to his background, Travis only seems to only focus on one half of that equation. He’s not wrong. I just think he’s leaving out part of the story.

[@schenksteven1]

@@JustinColletti you’re correct that wrestling takedowns and judo throws need to be modified to work in BJJ. You’re wrong when you suggest that their failure to react is somehow because they have done the work of modifying wrestling techniques for BJJ. What I’m talking about is BJJ practitioners failing to respond to takedown feints at all, which means they don’t have the reaction to stop a shot at all. It’s the equivalent of boxing someone who has their eyes shut. Im talking about a complete lack of hand fighting or head fighting, again, which is like boxing someone with their hands at their side and their weight on their heels. I’m also talking about wild overreactions to hand fighting: ie standing up when I work a snap down, so that they completely open up a shot opportunity. These aren’t modifications from wrestling to BJJ, but rather they are simply a failure to understand even the basics of the takedown game. And I am talking about purple belts, brown belts, and even black belts. It feels so much like cheating that I just always pull guard at my gym unless I’m rolling with another wrestler, or with someone who has specifically asked me to help them with their takedown game. Out of the hundreds of people I’ve rolled with I can count on one hand the number of people who don’t fit into the scenario I’ve described.

[@JustinColletti]

Oh, for sure, I wasn’t talking about reactions to takedowns, only the execution of takedowns by BJJ players who believe they are good at them for the context of their sport. As far as reactions to takedowns, you’ll find all sorts of things. There’s a big gradient skill level there. Even at any given belt level. No question that a lot of BJJ people are terrible at standup! I won’t argue with you there for a minute. There are black belts with good standup games and black belts who are terrible at it, no doubt. And sure, the ones who are less good at it are probably the majority. My only point was that some BJJ practitioners who believe they have good wrestling-style takedowns for BJJ may be correct. And their takedowns may actually work better against intelligent, competent resistance in their sport than that of a good wrestler who just started BJJ. I am assuming that we are talking about BJJ practitioners who take standup seriously enough to believe that they are “good at” wrestling in the context of BJJ. Because that was the context that Travis set. So that’s what I’m speaking to. As far as reactions go, I will often purposefully NOT react to feints from wrestlers as an intentional strategy. I find that one of my most effective techniques against good wrestlers is to take too upright a posture, show no clues that I know anything about wrestling, and make them think I am totally unprepared for a takedown attempt. This way, I can persuade them to take a bad, overzealous shot that I can sprawl out on and use to snap them down or guillotine them or the like. It’s 100% a trick when I do it, and it totally works way more often than it should. That said, you probably also run into a lot of BJJ practitioners who do the same thing because they actually are clueless :-) But surely you have run into at least some people like me as well, who are trying to get you to confidently take a shot that they can intercept in some way? That said, in my experience, more clueless BJJ practitioners are more likely to quickly adopt an extremely bent over stance that isn’t as great for shooting on, but is good for pulling guard. Though there is some variation in that as well. I don’t for a moment doubt in your experience that you run into a lot of colored belts who don’t know how to defend takedowns. My point is that if you run into a colored belt who is good at defending takedowns, a BJJ player who knows takedown modifications that are good for BJJ will have a better safer shot than a wrestler who has just recently started BJJ. Does that make some sense? For example, in those cases where you do actually find intelligent BJJ resistance to your wrestling, I’m sure your wrestling now leaves you open to far fewer counters than it did when you first started out in BJJ, right? I find that something like that is the experience for a lot of wrestlers. They can very quickly develop modifications that keep good BJJ standup players from countering them easily. But not from the very first day. Those BJJ players who are believe they are good at takedowns for their sport probably do take these things into account, and a good number of them are probably correct.

[@schenksteven1]

@@JustinColletti Yep, we are largely on the same page. Although I would say that someone who has "good BJJ takedowns" still won't be able to take a decent wrestler down even in a BJJ ruleset. Check out the takedown on this video at the 3:24 mark: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWHNoH53gLagqqM This might work against a newer wrestler, but the average varsity HS wrestler would stuff this guys shot really easy. He has no head pressure, no sustained drive with his legs, and turns the wrong way into the (non-existent) sprawl. If the defender knew what he was doing this would have ended in a front headlock or worse. Also, yes, people have tried that trick on me. It definitely worked at first, with people baiting me into chokes. To your point, this is where I have had to modify my wrestling to make it work in a BJJ ruleset; and this is the biggest modification needed. I have largely addressed this by avoiding "mid-level" shots, and stick with "high-level" (head in the chest) or "low-level" (head around the knees) takedown attempts. It negates any real choking opportunity, and most other takedown defenses are not specific to BJJ, but have to be dealt with in a wrestling context as well.

[@devonvancura81]

@@schenksteven1 As a former college wrestler and blue belt myself, I totally agree with all of this

[@jonmoris9354]

from someone who did judo for 10 years and bjj for 5 years with some wrestling i couldnt agree more with travis, literally everything he says is true

[@urgilesbarragan]

Came for the video, stayed for the comments. Honestly, I've never came across a video in which the comments are so articulated and respectful. Congrats people!

[@ookami112]

Picasso once said “Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”

[@maitrekano]

very good , and thanks for sharing this quote , i will remenber it .

[@bigro4444]

This is so true. I’m a brown belt in judo and blue I’m BJJ. BJJ stand up has some of the same dynamics in judo. But setups and combos are hampered, Grip sets and setting up angles also become odd. The point Travis made about skill disparity is so true. Often times I’m throwing people as softly as posible because let’s say I do go heavy on a throw there’s a high chance they might land wrong, or hurt you by spazzing out. I’ve had to adjust all my judo setups and grips for BJJ.

[@dylan_krishna_777]

True man you would smash BJJ players like crazy becouse they aren't use to it and they dont know how to do ukemi good enough! is it not difficult for you to get good grips becouse the GI of BJJ is different then a Judo GI?

[@bigro4444]

@@dylan_krishna_777 If anything getting grips is much easier, however in judo you have to be very aggressive and defensive against solid judo guys, bjj guys just grab, so its easy to just break and get a better set, but I oftentimes find myself overthinking grips in BJJ, they don't play the same grip game standing. So I just have a much simpler set for bjj guys.

[@dylan_krishna_777]

True man a judoka 's have a great mindset for street self defense in a way of i need to do this trows or this submission as fast as possible with or without technique ( brute force) Travis Stevens said that once and that BJJ is like a game we play and that doesn't exist in Judo. So for a judoka it can be easier to go into BJJ becouse of the better grips and set ups for trows then vice versa.

[@lamesurfer1015]

@@bigro4444 BJJ players are harder - but for different reasons. For one, I can't blast them with confidence like I do wrestlers or Judoka. I have to hit them with something controlled like de-ashi-barai, O-Uchi-Gari, or O-Soto-Guruma. Second, they live in jigotai. So I have to break their frames down methodically, then go for the throw. That said, not one can get close to taking me down.

[@gianttigerfilms]

I definitely have to use safe controlled throws in bjj, I’m so scared I’d hurt them otherwise.

[@alexneville8168]

How can you compare a BJJ competitor with a collegiate wrestler? Thats like telling a good wrestler, "Your BJJ sucks. Try grappling Rafa Mendes or Gordon Ryan in a sub only tournament."

[@PJ-wi8to]

Always love listening to Travis. Great knowledge

[@JustinColletti]

I have tremendous respect for Travis’ accomplishments, and his teaching. And there are definitely some good insights in here. That said, there are a couple little things I didn’t really understand about his take on this one. When a BJJ practitioner believes that they “have good wrestling” they generally mean that they “have good wrestling techniques for the sport of jiu jitsu”. They generally don’t mean that they believe they can outwrestle a wrestler in the sport of wrestling, under wrestling rules, which they haven’t trained for. I don’t think any of them would argue that. However, it might very well mean that their wrestling-style takedowns *translate better to the sport of jiu jitsu than an actual wrestler’s do*. To his credit, some of Travis’ remarks implicitly acknowledge this, though he doesn’t appear to say as much outright. We all know that wrestlers and judoka who are VERY good at their sports routinely come into jiu jitsu for the first time and find out that their wrestling or judo is not very good for jiu jitsu at all. (At least not at a high level.) At a minimum, it will take them months to adapt their skill set to serve them reliably in the sport of jujitsu… Just like it would take a BJJ practitioner with good takedowns for jiu jitsu quite some time to adapt their skillset to the sport of wrestling. As Travis correctly hints at, great wrestlers can find themselves constantly guillotined and triangled and reversed, and judoka can find their setups stuffed, their backs constantly taken or can be rolled through to bottom, making their throws unsuccessful in BJJ. While their wrestling or judo may be very good for the sports of wrestling and judo, it is not so good for the sport of BJJ. But in the other hand, a BJJ practitioner who is far less proficient in those sports could have “better wrestling or judo for jiu jitsu” than a more accomplished wrestler or judoka. Of course, that same wrestler or judoka could probably learn fairly quickly how to adapt their skills for the sport of BJJ. But it will not look identical to their standup skills in other sports-nor should it. It will start to look a little more like the standup of a BJJ practitioner. Similarly, a BJJ practitioner with a good single leg and double leg for their sport could probably learn relatively quickly how to adapt their skills to sport wrestling if that was their ultimate goal. Some of this Travis seems to implicitly acknowledge, so it’s not my real point of disagreement. What I found more questionable is the suggestion that BJJ practitioners should learn the sports of wrestling or judo in their pure forms, assuming what they really care about is success in BJJ. That doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would you want to learn how to wrestle for the sport of wrestling, or how to do judo throws for the sport of judo, if your goal is to be good at takedowns for the sport of BJJ? Wouldn’t it be wiser to learn the iterations of those techniques for the sport of BJJ so that you don’t have to relearn them later on? An approach where you first learn pure wrestling or pure judo seems like it would needlessly set back your standup skills for BJJ by many months relative to just learning proper iterations of those skills for BJJ. This becomes even more obvious when you substitute the term “MMA” for “BJJ”. If you were training an MMA fighter, would you make sure he first knew how to wrestle in the sport of wrestling, and how to do judo throws for the support of judo, and then later go back and correct all the things he’s doing wrong that don’t make any sense for the sport of MMA? No, you would probably just teach him wrestling and judo for MMA! Wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t you make him focus on what kinds of shots work with striking in the mix and what kind of trips and throws work in an MMA clinch? If that is the sensible approach for MMA, why would you approach BJJ any differently? The last point he makes that I don’t really understand is this: he seems to be suggesting that BJJ practitioners don’t call wrestling style takedowns “wrestling“ or judo style takedowns “judo“. To me, that would seem MORE disrespectful of those sports, rather than less. Acknowledging the tradition from which those techniques come appears more respectful of those sports. At least it seems that way to me. Calling a double leg that is good in the context of jiu jitsu a “jiu jitsu takedown” would seem MORE disrespectful to wrestling then correctly calling it “wrestling for jiu jitsu” or “wrestling that works in jiu jitsu”, to my ear. Same goes for a modified judo throw that works better in BJJ. Should we refer to it as a “Brazilian Jiu Jitsu throw”? Isn’t that more disrespectful to Judo than calling it a “judo throw that works in jiu jitsu”? That’s how it seems to me anyway. Though, I suppose that’s an aesthetic preference, and there’s no real arguing about taste. Hope that makes sense! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it Travis. It was interesting to hear your take. Certainly a perspective I hadn’t considered before.

[@furiousfellow1583]

maybe because even black belts have pretty bad stand up/takedowns I think his point is you aré better learning proper Wrestlin/judo and then adapt than learn a bad technique from a bjj black belt, I for example had to learn proper bjj and then adapt into judo what was useful to get an edge on the ground on judo tournaments

[@merkins87]

When you learn an art form for the sake of the art itself, rather than to help with another discipline, through deliberate training & repetition you'll be able to develop your game/applicable abilities to your original discipline far more efficiently. If you cut off the second art altogether/very selectively pick & choose, you will learn isolated techniques that may be helpful but you won't be able to spot as many opportunities/be able to fully utilise your skillset. Case in point, me: 15 years of bjj, tried learning "judo for bjj" 10 years ago, didn't stick it out because I wasn't able to use my typical moves. Fast forward 8 years, started judo 2 years ago for judo's sake & it has helped my gripping, my footwork, my timing, my combinations- & my throws so much more, because I've had to almost "ignore" my pre-set beliefs/skills, to take on board new information & then with my years of bjj I've been able to find far more easily what moves apply & where. & I've really enjoyed judo too!

[@Michael-ei3mh]

I'm just starting bjj after a lifetime of wreslting. I think what he means is that if I came to the bjj gym expecting to continue to outwreslte my opponent i would suck at both for much longer. I am currently finding more success trying to forget wreslting and learn proper bjj technique (for now). Once I understand each position better I will be e to utilize more and more wreslting techniques. There are overlaps I already am learning from but the pressure and opponent reactions are totally different. Example. Riding legs in wreslting works only because the bottom man is fighting life and death to not go to his back. In bjj throwing in a hook = the bottom man flipping to his back. Seat belt works in bjj, but will loose you a match in wreslting. There are similar body mechanics but the rules dictate almost opposite pressures and reactions in each sport. Respect to all the grapplers and judo Champs out there. Each sport requires extreme discipline and commitment.

[@brojitsu]

Agreed 100 percent. Literally with everything you just said, because what you say is simply reality and not an attempt to preserve to ego of any specific art. The fact of the matter is, jiu-jitsu has the least restrictive rules (with the exception of leaving the mat as Travis spoke of). Because of this, it makes very little sense to restrict those rules and learn takedowns that don't consider the dangers present previously. For example, leg attacks for takedowns are not legal in Judo. That leave Judokas at a clear disadvantage against folk and free style wrestlers, especially when they stay high on their toes and lean inward with their hips to defend against or use upper body throws. The wrestlers are at a clear disadvantage when the fight goes to the ground because Judo does teach some submissions. Both are at a serious disadvantage because of the near endless amount of ways to submit in jiu-jitsu, as that is always the end goal. The reality is, when there are no rules between two opponents, jiu-jitsu has the best answers for submitting your opponent. Unless you get thrown on your head of course lol. In the end, they all have great methods for their goals, but restrictive rulesets cause serious problems, for those usually practicing under them, when those rules are removed.

[@pawelmurias]

His point is that they aren't really good at the "wrestling" part of "wresting for jiu jitsu" but they just rely on mixing in enough BJJ specific stuff to make bad technique work. Like countering people taking them down with submissions and taking doing people who like have no wrestling stance or want to pull guard and get hit with a fake foot sweep.

[@aircombatmaneuvers]

I think most of the people did not understood what travis said. He said 1) train judo as judo and enjoy judo. 2) train bjj as bjj and enjoy bjj. 3) if a judo guy teaches a bjj guy judo moves and the bjj guys tries to apply them at bjj it wont work because he is a bjj guy and he lacks a lot of spetialized stand up judo knowledge and lacks the judo body/mind coordination into his body as to do it instinctual. 4) if a judo guy tries to apply judo throws to a bjj guy some may work and some not as the bjj guy will not be in the position or doimg the right reactions or predicted reactions for these throws to be effective, as he is willing to take the fight to the ground then de la riva, berimbolo, single leg x etc. 5)if a bjj guy becomes a judo guy he will be able to adapt some judo throws and takedowns to bjj. So cross training in judo for a bjj guy is always good as any judo throw is legit in bjj ruleset. But for a judo guy to train bjj will not be helpful for judo as judo sports rulesets are very restrictive. For self defense or street fight both judo and bjj are good to be learned and cross trained. Now jocking a little bit dont forget to cross train muay thai, as if you approch a thai in a judo way he will low kick you to the ground and if you grab him he will elbow you or knee you. And for a muay thai better to learn judo and bjj as if he gets to the ground it is better to know what to do or how to escape . And if some idiot has a little knife, nothing will help you except argentinian esgrima criolla or kali knife fighting system or having a long sword, and if the other person has a gun...and if a group of friends have a machine guns but someone has an attack drone or an apache helicopter or a b2 stealth bomber with nukes etc....the point is humankind has already devised many systems to kill/defend themselves beyond th old grappling and striking systems , also preventive deterrent systems like police and justice jails , death penalty and cameras watching you everywhere. Conclusion: Just do bjj and judo as sports under their rulesets and take care of your body. And ask yourselves in these last 10 or 20 years how many times did i have a fight on the street...0? 1? So in the next 10 to 20 what are the odds that i will reallu use all this martial knowledge?....the answer is most of the time: zero. You practice for the practice nothing more. Because you enjoy it.

[@jonmoris9354]

also this is the reason i tell the young generation that are coming up, you need to cross train bjj with either judo or wrestling and do it early in your journey, within the first year that way you will learn to apply it better for your chosen ruleset

[@jacobwilson7030]

I was a decent high school wrestler 10 years ago. When I started BJJ in February I was already mauling fellow white belts on my first day. Now I’m having good rounds with blue belts and occasionally a purple here and there. Wrestling is a chest code

[@JustinColletti]

Good wrestling is absolutely a cheat code against white belts. Yes! But it is not a cheat code against people who actually know how to do jiu jitsu, until you refine your wrestling for the sport of jiu jitsu. (As I’m sure you’ve discovered, having likely been guillotined and triangles by upper belts countless times. :-) That said, it probably gives you really good base, making you much harder to sweep than other white belts, and probably significantly improves how well you can maintain top side control even against good people. Wrestling is a very good base to have for any martial art. If you continue on with BJJ and want to learn to play a new game, the instincts you have learned there will serve you well, even if many of the techniques need to be altered and adapted to work against better people.

[@chuckgreen3629]

@@JustinColletti Nicky Rod came 2nd at ADCC as a blue belt, Jeff Monson won gold at ADCC as a white belt, Karimula Barkalaev came from Dagestan and won ADCC gold, etc. People forget how developed wrestling was before sportification, JJ just reintroduces the lost submissions.

[@alejandroruedaaa1154]

@@chuckgreen3629 nick may be blue belt in gi but in gi he is pretty much a black belt.

[@VoltedSoldier]

High school wrestler 10 years ago? Lol and you give purple belt rubs? Find a new gym.

[@HGFED321]

You're bragging about sanbagging whitebelts while you have years of experience as a grappler?

[@dylan_krishna_777]

I train bjj with my stepbrother and sometimes we do stand up . i did a osoto gari in a sparring match so basic sweeps from judo can work in BJJ but more advance trows like ogoshi- harai goshi- koshi guruma are more difficult to apply in a sparring match becouse you need to understand the setups of judo and the footwork. Also the Gi of BJJ players are very difficult to get a grip especially around the elbow part and that is like the most important grip point if you want to set up a judo trow. I respect judo as a art and you can use it if you study the footwork and the setups of Judo long enough.

[@christophertaylor3150]

I am glad to see these three sports helping each other grow

[@jermaineandersenii5552]

I agree with all of this, and what it boils down to is ruleset. Especially with that ADCC example. The stand up game in jiujitsu at all levels is genuinely terrible, but the exciting thing of how open the ruleset is that it allows you to not be advanced at wrestling and judo, if you can be moderately competent with a few takedowns and throws that compliment each other you will find the hole in your opponent’s understanding and get them to ground. The worst mentality in jiujitsu stand up is pulling guard because you can’t get your opponent down. You deserve to stand there for 5 minutes looking ridiculous and loss 0-0 because both of you suck.

[@joseluki]

BJJ is the only real martial art that promote something that you never want on a self defence situation.

[@furiousfellow1583]

"You deserve to stand there 5 minutes looking ridiculous because yoy suck" im gonna steal that😆

[@CJ-tz1iw]

I really agree with Travis’s last comment. Stand up game has to be instinctual. As an older judo bb I found adapting to bjj v tricky. Main difference is bjj guys pretty much on their heals and crouching so vulnerable to ashi waza, especially Kosoto gari or osoto.

[@rickfinsta2951]

When new guys come to Judo class, our 6th Dan has me go through Ukemi, some basic stance and grip stuff, and usually Marote Seoi Nage, with them so they can participate in classes. Many are crossovers from the BJJ classes looking for some stand-up experience. I kinda tell them the same thing - Judo isn't just stand-up for Jujitsu, it is a different sport, so don't think that we can teach you a throw and you can go bomb all the BJJ guys at tournaments with it and win matches. I was showing a BJJ newcomer basic gripping today (steal the sleeve in particular) and how easy it is to simply drag someone to the ground (versus dedicating the time and effort to perfecting a Judo throw that may not work in BJJ anyways) but it occurred to me that a BJJ player isn't necessarily going to be reaching for the lapel like a judoka would; "steal the sleeve" may well also be moot. Just like when I am in BJJ class I tend to fall back on my highly developed defensive ne waza techniques since pretty much all my offensive ne waza starts during the transition or when my opponent turtles or prones out. The BJJ guys don't know how to deal with someone that has a totally different approach to ground fighting, and I'm not convinced they necessarily should. Now I need to finish this mojito and go do some drunken uchikomis (train like you fight, right?!).

[@daviderusso1238]

Agree. I'm interesting in the contrary. Adapting your BJJ to Judo is possible? I'm a Judoka now, but Judo has a different way of moving and a different set of rules, Kumikata and different posture in standing work. Also ne waza is different, as you said, because the goal is different. BJJ groundwork is more creative and dynamics because you don't have mate and osaekomi. Thanks a lot! ;)

[@rickfinsta2951]

@@daviderusso1238 I think that if nothing else it is a great way to get defensive Ne Waza practice against skilled opponents. I actually spoke to the lead instructors in the BJJ class before starting and they told me to go ahead and pull defensive moves. Turtle, prone out, use choke defense, etc. and then the BJJ guys will get better at attacking for having dealt with really difficult, defensive players. I think for me it will give me attacks from losing positions on the mat instead of just breaking Osaekomi and looking at the referee. LOL

[@daviderusso1238]

@@rickfinsta2951 : it's true and you are very smart and lucky in that situation. I'll try to do the same idea in my class: to deal with very difensive players. You're inspiring me. Thanks! :)

[@christophertaylor3150]

Thanks for your insights

[@SnitchyIncognito]

Travis vs. Craig Jones in a freestyle wrestling match would be interesting

[@alejandroruedaaa1154]

Travis easily.

[@mecateman]

Travis is spot on

[@Joecool20147]

Gordon Ryan did wrestle 2 top level guys to answer those questions, and predictably he got wrecked in take downs and then wrecked them in submissions. I don’t think BJJ guys are going around thinking they are actually great at wrestling or Judo.

[@steventheslayer]

Weren't they jiu-jitsu matches? Should Gordan do wrestling with only wrestling rules?

[@Joecool20147]

@@steventheslayer he did one against Bo Nickal that was still grappling, but where he wasn’t allowed to pull guard or do leg locks. In that one Gordon was completely unable to take Bo down, but Bo was also essentially stalling because he was afraid of Gordon’s submissions. Eventually Gordon resorted to shaking his ass in Bo’s face, to shame him into Suplexing Gordon. Then Gordon played guard and Triangled him. A different time Gordon actually put on a singlet and did a Freestyle wrestling match with a US Olympic wrestler, I forget his name. Gordon got taken down and rolled for the Tech in like 40 seconds. Then the same guy did a sub only match with Gordon and Gordon tried torturing him like he does now, so the wrestler just tapped to a power half Nelson.

[@barrykee8876]

I think jiujitsu was/is essentially a martial art devised for self defense. No one claims to be wrestlers as we all have been the unfortunate victim of skilled wrestlers transitioning to bjj. BJJ practitioners should be able to take an average person down in self defense situations but the magic is in positions and submissions. Apples and oranges really. I'd rather be able to fight from the guard than be able to take elite level judokas/wrestlers down. But hey, like most everyone else I'm just a hobbyist that doesn't care to play golf

[@ethanchaney1139]

@@steventheslayerIt was a blended rule thing to help each competitor not to heavily be favored.

[@raymondr2821]

Travis Steven he's the man Olympic medalist 🇺🇸

[@slavicvolk]

Full interview?

[@MrNickW123]

I'm lucky to have 2 really good wrestlers in my jiu jitsu school that requires you to get better at wrestling

[@ethanchaney1139]

Something I learned from doing jiu jitsu prior to wrestling and trying to learn wrestling for jiu jitsu is that the reason wrestlers are good going into jiu jitsu us because they are first good wrestlers, then adapt it to jiu jitsu. So I dedicated myself to learning wrestling and how to wrestle without jiu jitsu in mind. I’ve recently started doing judo and am having to force myself to learn and appreciate judo for itself, because learning a sport for the sports sake is what makes you better, and if you learn judo only for jiu jitsu you’re somewhat skipping the understanding and just learning a jiu jitsu throw. Another aspect is the genuine love for martial arts and learning something new too lol However…jiu jitsu I like to refer to more so as grappling. Jiu Jitsu is new and unrefined, in that unless you’re in a tournament, it’s so young and free of rules that it is a free for all, and it’s honestly a blend of all grappling styles more so than it’s own.

[@bryancaceres439]

They should just do a full submission grappling tournament of the top guys in each sport and see who wins. The whole objective per his interview is translation to a fight. Well a fight doesn’t end with someone’s back on the mat. It ends with someone for most part, being submitted, knocked out or tired out.

[@gnnguy]

That's ADCC

[@dalroache]

Awesome

[@1234kingconan]

Travis is the only guy I will listen to on this topic. So many irresponsible opinions out there from every random person on this topic.

[@stefanocioni2587]

i do bjj and i agree. at the bjj schools nowhere near enough emphasis is placed on standup; guys bjj teachers, please adapt the protocols to suit a standup game; in the street a purple belt or even higher has no chance against a good striker or judo guy

[@pricepatrick644]

The best phrase is, each has its own identity. Japanese Jujutsu, Judo, Wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu all have their own identity. Keep them in their own divisions.

[@harrygreb3457]

Travis Stevens vs Bo Nickel

[@jaylee2267]

You should try ballet it’s dope for bjj

[@andrewsp8838]

Remember when Flograppling made an article saying that Yuri Simoes can hang with Kyle Snyder in a wrestling match? Lmao

[@jackolman]

He he drop seoinage reminds of a video in rickson' garage where he does this to a guy and he just flops over.

[@joseluki]

BJJers saying they know Judo and Wrestling, but never compete on Judo or Wrestling rules, and think that pull guard and scraching your butt on the mat is the epitome of self defence. That is why you see a lot of BJJers that have barely athleticism but a Judoka of the same level is way more explosive and strong.

[@tinoslaponi8514]

Helio Gracies vision for Jiu jitsu was a self defense art to be utilized in a Vale Tudo ruleset. Wrestling and Judo, which are amazing, but are Olympic sports. They have no consideration for a match that may last 1 hour or more. Thus they are afforded the opportunity to commit displays of athleticism that would be very unwise in a Vale Tudo match.

[@---tx9xx]

Yes but now that original Gracie jiujitsu hsa fallen into the same sport trap, witness IBJFF/NAGA guard pulls, 50/50, butt scooting

[@MattOriginalP]

Cross training will never NOT help. I think he puts himself on a pedestal sometimes as a Judo Olympian and danaher black belt. But there's a reason why double legs work, tomoe nage works, and the concepts of pressure and pace work. He needs to get over himself a little. Go cross train. It'll help your jiu jitsu

[@MattOriginalP]

Fyi this is coming from a Travis Stevens fan. He's part of the reason why I cross train Judo. So hearing this is pretty stupid to be honest

[@schenksteven1]

I didn't hear him saying DON'T cross train, but rather, don't PRETEND to cross train. If you are going to learn Judo, learn it in a Judo class and develop until you can be successful in competition with other Judoka. If you are going to learn wrestling then go test your wrestling in a wrestling tournament, under wrestling rules, against another wrestler. Once you have actually cross trained, and built up some success in multiple disciplines, then you can start to truly mix your martial arts. Again, I didn't hear him say not to cross train, but rather, learn the discipline before you try to modify it and adapt it for use in a different rule set. Specifically, (to your point) I don't believe anyone will takedown a wrestler with a double leg that they learned and "perfected" in a BJJ context. And no one will perform a successful tomoe nage against a Judoka if they learned and perfected it within a BJJ context.

[@fennec812]

@@schenksteven1 Yeah, quite the opposite, he seems like he’s very much advocating for cross training. In fact, going one further, he’s saying master 2+ arts. The fundamental problem he is pointing out is that BJJ really is just doing surface level imitation stuff on average. Yes, there are some takedowns that are working, but by the standards of their original contexts they are pretty shitty. And more damning is that the average BJJ guy doesn’t even realize that because they don’t really understand why things do or don’t work or how they could be better. Which is why he’s saying go and master this stuff under a guy who is actually a master at it. Understand it on a deep, mechanical, and fundamental level against people who have that same understanding. Then-and only then-should you really be trying to adapt anything to the needs of BJJ. The big take away here in my understanding is that he believes BJJ stand up is trash because it leans on the expectations of the BJJ context and the reality that the general skill level in stand up is pretty low. That’s basically a foolproof formula for never getting better because of course you can hit takedowns on someone who is trash at stand up and already half way to the ground because they’ve been considering pulling guard since you tapped hands. So just go train under someone who has a deep understanding until you get one yourself and against people who are going to fight tooth and nail to stay on their feet. Without that, BJJ takedowns are doomed to be in stasis.

[@kenn.alexander]

There is a difference between a high level competitor and a person who trains for recreation. Travis is a high level competitor, most people (including myself) train as a hobby. For hobbyists, knowing a little of everything is great but the high level competitor needs to be a master of one thing. The rule sets of judo, bjj, and wrestling are counterproductive to one another for many reasons. One example, bjj favors grappling off of your back while you lose on your back in both judo and wrestling.

[@schenksteven1]

@@kenn.alexander while you are correct that there is a world of difference between an Olympic medalist and a hobbyist, that doesn't change the basic premise of what he is saying. His point stands with below average wrestlers, too: I can take the average 3rd year wrestler, someone who might be good enough to make varsity on the local HS team, and his takedown game will be on par with plenty of BJJ black belts. This isn't about being world class, it is about reps against genuine competition. Over the course of a single season, the average wrestler probably has contested 2,000 or 3,000 live takedowns. (Approximately 30-50 per practice, 5 practices a week, 15 weeks on the season, and that doesn't include another 2-5 takedowns during each of the 30-50 tournament matches) There are guys at my gym who might fight for a takedown once a week during BJJ rolls. The difference is that a wrestler lives and dies by the takedown, and many BJJ practitioners barely even consider them.

[@kallepikku4991]

This is so brutally honest, I burned a hole in my gi. Haha! 😅

[@jessep9330]

Tell us how you really feel Travis!! Hahaha

[@Carnemexada]

Why adapt to Jiu-jitsu when you can just learn catch wrestling?

[@tomwalker389]

I can pull a Sumi off a Single Leg.

[@uncircumcisedcircus]

Judo has a very steep learning curve compared to wrestling, also once someone is airborne you don't really have any control over them. And unfortunately, the Olympic committee makes the judo ruleset worse every cycle. Youre better off learning Jiu Jitsu and incorporating some judo and wrestling into your game especially if you are training later in life. I will admit im biased because I hate the idea of a Gi, but the Gi and grip fighting adds another layer of complication that an athlete doesn't need.

[@jorn0607]

Travis is great, but he always makes me feel like shit for not doing it right

[@kickinwinghotboi883]

Yeah they're the same but they're not the same, ok

[@Luisfigueroa999]

Your point gets lost with your arrogant delivery.

[@kananisha]

First

[@TheBlackHarrington]

Weird guy. Very angry

[@---tx9xx]

not anger, intensity