Trope Talk: Mind Control

It's insidious! It's omnipresent! It's the number one way to justify two of your heroes kicking the crap out of each other! It's… apparently mostly a thing in superhero media, judging by the examples in this video. Either that or I just watch too much superhero stuff.
Got a favorite mind-control plotline? Drop in the comments! Debate their validity! Fight fight fight!
Thanks to patron Devin Hoffarth for requesting this topic!
EXAMPLES USED (in order of first appearance): Supergirl (s1e16), Inuyasha (e132), Batman: Bad Blood, Justice League (s3e9), one of the super mario comics, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Justice League (s2e21-22), Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, Transformers Prime (s1e14), Trollhunters (s2e10), Yugioh (e78), Inuyasha (e60-61), Teen Titans (s1e10), X-Men: Evolution (s2e12), Justice League (s1e10-11), Batman Beyond (s1e10), Adventure Time (s5e14), Legion of Superheroes (e25-26), Batman: Arkham Knight, Voltron: Legendary Defender (s6e5), Order of the Stick (page 1009), Inuyasha: The Final Act (e21), X-Men: Evolution (s1e11), Trollhunters (s3e1), Young Justice (s2e18), The
Spectacular Spider-Man (s1e12), Teen Titans (s1e6), Superman: The Animated Series (s3e12-13), Captain America: Civil War, Spectacular Spider-Man (s1e13), Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, DBZ (e229), Trollhunters (s3e7-8), Avatar: The Last Airbender (s2e37), Inuyasha (e24), X-Men: The Last Stand
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[@assaultspoon4925]

"You have to stop being evil!" *"I... I cant!"* "But we're friends!" *"Oh. Well, that changes everything."*

[@edenisok894]

Assault Spoon also “I was evil the whole time!” “But we’re friends!” “Oh yeah, right, sorry. I’m good now because something!.

[@edenisok894]

Wait, does my comment even make sense? Darn, I am so confused. I took a three hour nap in the middle of the day and I don’t know if my sleep schedule is gonna get better or worse

[@ninjafish6185]

Assault Spoon I can’t tell if that last sentence is sarcasm or not.

[@marblesoda2081]

Assault Spoon 🥄

[@besquareorbethere2680]

Hero: "Stop!" Mind Controlled Friend: "No" Hero: "We're friends!" Mind Control: *'Understandable, have a great day.'*

[@LawkzBro]

i think it's worth mentioning the "i resisted the mind control but i'll pretend to be mind controlled" which is my favorite

[@StarrTheWitch]

Pedro Vanderlei i was waiting for that one

[@navyarao5553]

Emily the raccoon and the hero knows his friend's being mind controlled, but acts like he doesn't so he can become a part of the villain's plan and face him

[@TubezThe1]

Jessica Jones at the end of season 1

[@TubezThe1]

Emily the raccoon once again. Jessica Jones. Man they really thought about the mind control in that show.

[@ztslovebird]

Pedro Vanderlei Those ones can be fun, like when Cyborg did it in Teen Titans.

[@coffeewolf5789]

I like this trope but I really want to see one specific example of this just once in my life or after life. “Oh no! Our leader has been mind controlled!” The lance: Don’t worry, I have a full proof plan to see if they remember us. *Walks up to the leader* The lance: Hey buddy! Remember me? *tries to murder them harder than everyone else* The lance: Well the good news is that they definitely remember me.

[@moonfirearc6793]

i love this

[@warlynx5644]

Coffee Wolf No don’t do it, you’ll kill people by laughter

[@catalyst455]

Justice league

[@jenilynneful]

Fool proof

[@tatumfowler3603]

"Hey, bub, remember me?" *gets backhand slapped* "Well, I guess they do."

[@isitnotwrittenthat1680]

So there is another mind control trope: the "back seat driver" a passenger as you would, that sits in the back of their mind and makes suggestions, possibly posing as the conscience or subconscious, with generally little true control, relying on manipulation and psychology, examples include borrowing in disc world as a high control version

[@calimorales9880]

Seems interesting

[@SomethingWittyRW]

Joker in Arkham Knight

[@henrypaleveda7760]

That's what I have in "the smart guy" for my Sci-Fy story and it does normally come out in high stress situations. In this case, the back seat driver is constantly egging on the smart guy, playing off of insecurity, trying to get him to say something to deliberately piss off people around him, and even tries to take control when he's worn out or otherwise exhausted and n occasion they both agree on what to do and approach the problem or situation in sync.

[@aiiiia9971]

Hahaaa yessss

[@allisterthebirb4142]

So intrusive thoughts but a mind clown?

[@cking4869]

“Haha, I have deleted your friend’s personality and took over his body!” “I know you’re in there!” “No, he really isn’t- oh no, he came back somehow, crazy.”

[@ihopeicanchangethisnamelat7108]

“I know you’re in there!” “Of course I am, I literally just explained I’ve taken over his body.” “I meant my friend!” “You really are dumb, aren’t you?”

[@HeadCannon19]

The Flash season 4

[@standardhuman8675]

*coughs in Keebo*

[@Hazyla]

@@standardhuman8675 JDGGFUDOAKANAJAKOALAXKNXXNA

[@negativeiquser5295]

"huh, wonder how that happened" plot: yeah, crazy.

[@cookiesnqueen2625]

Here's an idea: A villain possesses someone in the hero group and just starts acting like a jerk with the intent of causing chaos and disorder in their group dynamic, as one does. But then after experiencing firsthand the kind of familial love and unconditional support and forgiveness the group has for each other, realises how alone they really are and how much they want to be a part of that for real; and with the turmoil of emotions and confusion such a revelation would bring, release the victim and/or reveal themselves and gtfo back to their evil lair to mull over what just happened, leading into the oh so coveted Villain Angst™ and potentially the reformed villain trope.

[@maf7742]

It's kind done with Greed from FullMetal Alchemist except it's of the possession variety

[@thechainwarden]

Even better they indulge their fantasy and keep controlling the person and developing and emotional bond to the characters trough the person being controlled. And when the heroes eventually find out to the villain it feels like being cast out by loved ones. (you can add the self reflection and angst on the villains part here).

[@shinysugardrops]

Okay now I wanna use that in my story--

[@blinkachu05]

Isn't this just the Superior Spider-Man arc? Yeah that's a good example.

[@theArab__]

Or that were the mind controller turns out to be better then the real guy

[@Dmobley9901]

"They usually can't fight it off completely...unless they're Batman-" This is one of my favorite quotes because of how true it is- This guy shrugs off hypnosis, fear toxin, hallucinogens, mind control, body and mind alterring diseases and more just by the virtue of being who he is-

[@sakurafan771]

Because I'm Batman.

[@kinagrill]

HE. IS. BATMAN!

[@mrobligatory.5234]

Batman’s power is knowing that he has crazy plot armour

[@pixwool]

LJ Clyburn Nah, his power is being Batman.

[@TheTrueAdept]

@@mrobligatory.5234 no, it's partly through his own willpower and training that allows him to heavily resist that sort of thing, but he also knows that he isn't invulnerable so he makes sure that his allies and friends know the protocols to stop him just in case he is mind-controlled.

[@stevemanart]

10:50 irl there is a legal precedent that my apply here. If you are impressed to perform a crime under pain of death, you are not culpable for that crime, and the person who did force you to commit that crime is guilty of both the crime in question and forcing you to commit a crime.

[@thecourtjester2610]

Oh ho ho!

[@phastinemoon]

In a weird way, sorta insanity cases - it basically makes the argument in court that YOU weren’t in control of your own actions and that should absolve you of blame (admittedly, it’s not a “get out of jail free” card - if you prove in court that you’re not in control of your own actions, they put you in a mental ward, usually for life) and it’s... kinda comparable to the discussion about “to what extent are our beliefs and emotions under our control”... sorta?

[@henrypaleveda7760]

thanks for pointing that out.

[@brandonporter8509]

But I thought the Nuremberg trials established that you can’t use the excuse of “I was ordered to commit a war crime.” Thus making nazi soldiers guilty of their war crimes even though if they had disobeyed they would have been committing treason and likely sentenced to death.

[@willieoelkers5568]

The issue can be proving it was under duress, particularly if there's a masquerade in effect so you can't just tell your muggle friends "oh yeah, the evil overlord possessed me to infiltrate/destroy this secret society I'm a part of" or if the mechanism was subtle enough that it's hard to tell where the victim ends and the controller begins. Also, people aren't always reasonable, and if someone witnessed you do something that hurt them on a very personal level, often attacking/killing a loved one, it can be hard for their rational mind to overcome the "I saw you standing over them with a bloody knife" reaction.

[@trimmien2350]

Don’t forget the “pretends to be mind controlled so they can get closer to the villain when in reality they’re still the good versions of themselves”

[@Attaxalotl]

The Cynder "Boss fights" From the Legend of Spyro Eternal Night, when really it's just you making it look like a fight while Cynder lines up to ruin the bad guy's day.

[@bismarsyauqie7885]

@Trimmien Aruto from Kamen Rider Zero One for example

[@coltonwilliams4153]

Milim Nava from That Time I got Reincarnated as a Slime. Clayman was so convinced that he had her under control that he went on a full power trip in front of everyone. Only to realize that the seemingly stupid wild child of the demon lords was playing him like a fiddle the entire time. And the best part? She’d been setting his ass up ever since he approached her for the Orc Lord project. That’s why she brought Frey along to those meetings.

[@lundylow]

I absolutely love that you don't demonize tropes/equate them to cliches. KZbin's crawling with Everything Wrong With, and I'm glad to see that even tropes that at face value are poorly used and misrepresented, not only do you talk about how it could be used in a compelling way, but also how, even when used in a shallow way, you understand why the creator may choose to use it. You're awesome.

[@ButWhyMe...]

I know right. The internet is filled with uncited opinions.

[@tami7992]

That's what I love about her trope talk videos

[@wizwitch5318]

My favorite example of mind control being used purely to mess with character dynamics: When making the Phineas and Ferb Star Wars special, Dan and Swampy wanted to have a light saber duel between the titular characters because of how awesome it'd be, but they couldn't come up with a way for them to realistically have a fight So for the subplot, Doof wants to be a powerful Sith, and he builds a machine to achieve this goal. However, Ferb gets hit with this, which turns him evil, and when Phineas refuses to join him, a whole fight happens I love to describe it as "they realized the brothers get along too well, so they blasted one with evil"

[@calimorales9880]

XD

[@blueteller]

The most hilarious part about that was that they made Ferb talkative when he was evil. Like, if FERB MONOLOGUES, you know he isn't in the right mind... xD

[@wizwitch5318]

@@blueteller his eyes also are the same size during that scene. I found someone pointing that out with a comment of "Yknow what's disturbing about Darth Ferb? Other than trying to kill his brother, I mean"

[@HeadCannon19]

@@blueteller Well he's monologued before in the regular show. The one at the end of the Lake Nose Monster episode comes to mind

[@carmenmercedes9903]

that's a really funny way to put it. and that NON CANON SPECIAL is the most I've ever heard Ferb talk lol

[@icerius692]

Character: is mind-controlled The power of friendship: exists Mind control: *_Understandable, have a nice day._*

[@zizikaminarithequeen4090]

that doesnt always work

[@eliyahmcneill9302]

I know that refrence

[@toasterstrooder8628]

"I'm so hopped up on evil and angst! Nothing short of a _dramatic love confession_ will snap me out of it!" "Well good because slow burn was getting _really_ old" I love how sarcastically the drawings in this series demonstrate things.

[@softichill]

Toaster Strooder Well, it is an _Overly Sarcastic Production._

[@demonguysayshi2666]

Just imagine that the possessed character says that and the the mental parasite starts laughing and he the character just starts screaming *Shut up!*

[@ascaredmilipede7971]

Or on the other side: Mental parasite is overly afraid of physical affection and awkward situations. So you gotta hug the guy once in a while to snap him out

[@skyhideaway]

I would actually like to see the conversation happen like this in a story.

[@jajajasputin8927]

This is my favourite trope. An absolute guilty pleasure

[@zer0w0lf94]

Ja Ja Jasputin Have you seen Code Geass? The MC obtains the power to make anyone obey him and uses it to lead a revolution against his father’s empire.

[@mediatorraptor3349]

Same. One of favorites for no reason

[@221bornot2b]

Same. I have no clue why

[@im_tired1439]

Ja Ja Jasputin, same here. I write this trope to indulge once in a while.

[@arthurdhermy4946]

Same. I blame Digimon.

[@KellyPattonBKNY]

I’ve seen an I-know-you’re-in-there-somewhere fight where the end went like this: “You’re not a supervillain, you’re a stupid brother! You’re MY... stupid brother” “Hahaha!!! You think that’ll work!? That’s so overdo-“ *SLAP* and then the brother snaps out of it.

[@Emily-ye1rj]

This sounds like it'd happen in ben 10

[@mediatorraptor3349]

I wish I knew where this come from.

[@KellyPattonBKNY]

@@mediatorraptor3349 oh? Just a gacha story I saw one time. If you wanna see it, it’s by LunarSun Studios, and it’s a 6-part series called Stronger Than You Think. Don’t worry, it’s not gacha cringe.

[@mediatorraptor3349]

@@KellyPattonBKNY okay I'm going to watch it.

[@SCP--rj8hm]

@@Emily-ye1rj It genuinely does.

[@funky2670]

"hypnosis is the most kid friendly mind control" me: *writing a story where the main antagonist has killed over 900+ people by hypnotizing them to kill themselves or others* ah

[@kreeesqeeel]

Axolotl Hamilton I think with hypnotism the mind-controlled one cannot be forced to do something they really disagree with

[@bloopsagain]

Well, the Puella Magi Franchise has the Witches do just that, subtly influence people to do their worst to eachother and themselves.

[@kreeesqeeel]

bloops oh I didn’t think it could be used that way, thanks!

[@chipsleftwing]

yo can I read that

[@chadchaddington7453]

Is it out yet? I wanna read it!

[@spamus5243]

You did miss one variant: where the victim is willingly mind controlled. A character who has been subjected to mind control in the past finds themselves in a dire situation that they can't get out of themselves, so they willingly submit to whatever being or consciousness is controlling them because they know that being will be able to get them or their friends out. Usually a desperation move, though it could be part of the elaborate game plan leading up to the climax. One thing that can be done with this is when the being controlling them is not aware of the perceptions of the controlled character while they aren't being controlled, and so the good guys hatch a plan to trick said being into becoming a pawn in the aforementioned game plan.

[@matthewmuir8884]

So... Greed-Ling from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood?

[@C0C0L0QUIN]

I think this trope (The symbiote?) deserves its own talk, since is a rather different kind of control. This is not only about changing the "controlled" character, its generally about the relation between the character and the "corrupting influence", as it is usually a character on its own. Venom is the most obvious example, but its a very common trope in shonen too, with the nine tailed fox from Naruto being another example.

[@letmetakeajormungandrattha8591]

Oh yeah

[@andrewphilos]

@@C0C0L0QUIN The most well-known version of this being Yami Yugi from Yu-Gi-Oh! Or as Marik puts it in Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged: "Oh, right, because when I take control of somebody...that's pure evil, but when you do it, it's like you're Mother-friggin'-Teresa!"

[@willieoelkers5568]

​@@C0C0L0QUIN "Possession" maybe? No, wait, "The Inhabited". Broader and more neutral.

[@sukikurai]

One thing she didn’t mention is the “I’m good! I’m back”👍 “Are you? Or is that the evil guy trying to trick us?”🤔

[@whafflete6721]

Plot twist:The person asking the question is the one being controlled.

[@mckaylamarille8630]

@@samrevlej9331 Plot twist plot twist, the controllee works with the villian under the guise of being mind-controlled.

[@mckaylamarille8630]

@@samrevlej9331 True.

[@richardgibson8403]

Gold Dawn the group destroys itself in an among us style branch of mistrust and voting out

[@ihopeicanchangethisnamelat7108]

@@mckaylamarille8630 Plot twist to the power of four, there’s no such thing as mind-control, and everyone who had been ‘mind-controlled’ and executed in the past (after it was proved that nothing of the original occupant of the body remained) had really discovered the truth about the government’s corrupted plans, and claiming they had been mind-controlled by the enemy was an easy way to dispose of them while enforcing society’s belief that they are the good guys, and simultaneously preventing people who know the truth from speaking out under threat of reaching the same fate. **gasp for air** by the way this plot line is taken by me don’t you dare steal it anyone I’m warning you **passes out from oxygen deprivation**

[@teagannam]

The I Know You're In There Somewhere Fight™

[@spencerokeefe438]

I groan every time that comes up. It's just too cheesy and cliche.

[@ingonyama70]

why?

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

Spencer O'Keefe Idk I'm always pumped fir the fight for control. Especially if it goes into the person's mind

[@CrazyLikeUhFox]

Fräulein Zuckerguss How can you be pumped for something so predictably overdone? I almost envy that, not even joking.

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

CrazyLikeUhFox Idk I just enjoy it I guess. There are many other overdone tropes I'm really tired of but for some reason this one still catches my attention

[@TheAwakeOrangutang]

I get the feeling Red likes a lot of things classified under "knife-twisting fun".

[@Kimikachu22]

TheAwakeOrangutang Pretty much me

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

TheAwakeOrangutang knife-twisting fun is the best fun

[@letmetakeajormungandrattha8591]

Yep

[@richardgibson8403]

TheAwakeOrangutang red’s favorite undertale run is the genocide one.

[@isa-belva]

@@richardgibson8403 everything is adding up

[@anyaklum8757]

And then you have Ling Yao who befriends the entity possessing his body and uses their combined skills to get even cooler

[@SingingSealRiana]

I hated him before but loved greed . . . Andvthan he started to become cool in that bromance . . . I cried so badly . . . I loved greed so much

[@hanaomer4419]

Serena Odonata you hated Ling? I didn’t even know that was possible

[@SingingSealRiana]

@@hanaomer4419 I have a tendency to dislike highly popular characters or franchises... Don't get me started on star wars, one day someone will lynch me for it ^^ Greed made him a way better character and gave me something to sympathise with him. Like my reasons to love Roy are Riza and mostly Maes. Just beeing cool or badass will not make me like someone, I m not one for heroworship, you have to get me over emotional and neither revange nor ambition are things I get or get me.

[@hanaomer4419]

Serena Odonata I understand that. Most popular franchises I haven’t even seen including Star Wars so I’ll probably be getting lynched with you. And being a badass can make me like a character, if they’re a villain. I liked Ling though because he was just a straight nuisance. I loved how everyone else found him at least a little annoying even his own guards.

[@SingingSealRiana]

@@hanaomer4419 I just found him annoying for that ^^, i love annoying characters, if there is something to it, like Jane in Mentalist, where it would be so easy for him to get everyone to like him but instead he tries everything to make them hate him... And they still end up utterly loving him... I like guilt for some fucked up reason. I really love Obi Wan Kenobi, who totally trolls all and everyone, but him annoying people is just such a minute detail in who he is...he is a total badass, but he is not characterised by it, Izumi is not defined by that, there characters are built on much more depth, so I actual enjoy them eradicating there foe cause it does not feel like a cheep tactic to get me to like them... A problem I see in various Star Wars characters, James Bond, Indiana Jones, Neo, various superheros... You have to get me over geniuen feelings, not special effects and telling me how great someone is I'm bad at discribing it, I hope you still get it ^^ I started to love ling for the depth his relationship with the already very interesting Greed provided.

[@LynMusic]

I appreciate the "no need to have a civil war over it."

[@pretzelbomb6105]

My favorite type of mind control is the one where you just amplify what’s already there. You don’t even have to have it be full control, just turn a character’s emotions up to 11 and watch as every small slight, every little grudge, every jealousy and desire, comes to the forefront.

[@Door227]

“YOU ATE MY SANDWICH JIMMY” *disentagrates jimmu

[@SomeDude518]

Bonus points for when the villain has control over one but not the other, until person A snaps person B out of it; only then to be able to mind control A. Although this would require A not knowing B was mind controlled. Instead of a snap out of it fight it would just be an I know I can save you situation. Also the villain would then have to have the ability to coerce Bs actions to be able to successfully mind control A. A seriously agnsty subplot could be developed where B then sabatoges the effort, probably out of a intense feeling of guilt that their actions, even though not really representative of them, set in motion the second part of the main story. SUPER ANGSTY and I could see another sub plot of a redeemed villain when 'the power of true love' foils their plan but their plan was done to save the villains loved one and the whole situation leaves the antagonist questioning everything.

[@AishathFauzaaIbrahim]

Medea does this to Jason and Leo in the lost hero, leading her and piper to have a charmspeak fight. In the riordanverse, charmspeak is basically hypnotising someone else with your voice to get them to do what you want. It's extra hard if the person you're trying to control knows you're charmspeaking,and works better if they find you attractive. Piper is the daughter of Aphrodite, greek goddess of love and beauty, and she's one of the few of her mother's children who can charmspeak. Furthermore, she's extremely powerful, bffs with Leo, and dating Jason. As for the fight itself, Medea simply brings out the two boys' inner insecurities, like how Leo resents Jason for being the perfect golden boy who all the girls like, and Jason being mad because Leo always cracks jokes and is annoying on purpose.

[@AubriGryphon]

Version 8; Sokka's On Drugs Again "Cactus juice! It's gonna quench ya! It's the quenchiest..."

[@clouddd8053]

Lol I remember that

[@dogocatostudios8719]

Lol

[@lmbusiness5300]

I don’t remember this but I want to

[@geekgal3477]

It's a giant mushroom...MAYBE IT'S FRIENDLY!!!! XD

[@MEZMR.hypnosis]

@@geekgal3477 or the guy in the southern watertribe that's always in the background seen talking to inanimate objects

[@km1dash6]

There's also the kind of subliminal mind control, where a person is given a command, and they execute it, but don't always realize what they're doing (like a character putting poison in food, then forgetting they did that and acting normal). There's also the problem of people not believing a character was mind controlled, and holding someone responsible for something they had no control for (like when someone's in prison for killing a guy, but they were possessed when that happened).

[@letmetakeajormungandrattha8591]

Yeah

[@messofabeing9392]

There's a drug for that, I think. It's called Devil's Breath and it makes the victim do whatever they're told but forget all about it once it wears off.

[@cleverpsyche115]

A sub variant is the one people don't forget about, but rather don't know that they are being manipulated through a phrase or keyword. I call it the "Would You Kindly" Mind Control.

[@zer0w0lf94]

Lelouch’s Geass in a nutshell.

[@calimorales9880]

@@cleverpsyche115 winter soilder

[@daviddaugherty2816]

There's two main ones I can think of that she didn't really mention: Emotional Manipulation: the character is in full control of their actions, but their emotions are changed by an outside source. It's the classic fairy tale one, and is usually either played for laughs, serious angst, but not much in between. Direct Coercion: the character is in full control of their actions, but they are compelled to obey the commands of another. Characters in this situation have a habit of finding loopholes in their orders whenever they can just to stick it to the villain.

[@briansanders8122]

How about a Trope Talk about the 'Ultimate Form'?

[@MiBen773]

Brian Sanders I say YES

[@RushieCat]

This isn't even my final form!

[@Udontkno7]

YES

[@maxbaugh9372]

Calm down there Frieza :P

[@brunop.8745]

As in "Frieza" or as in "Kars"?

[@thehopeofeden597]

It sounds obvious to say but *mind control is freaking horrifying*

[@Leivve]

You should see it in a dark fantasy story where the person is more then willing to embrace how horrific it is. You thought by killing the bad guy you'd free your friend, but now he's just a vegetable cause there is nothing to give him orders.

[@barsni4779]

Psst! Now think about it: love potions are mind control, yet widely considered harmless and all pink and fluffy and romantic!

[@TheJaredPunch]

Awsamazing Eden more like fake memories

[@centaursapocalypse7259]

Love potions are date rape drugs. It's clearly shown in Harry Potter and it's one of the reasons that (unpopular opinion) I'm not exactly a fan of the Weasley twins, because they basically sold love potions in the half blood prince.

[@darkflame728]

Leivve Oooh! That sounds interesting and horrifying! I like it! :D Now imagine if the one of heroes knew this would happen so they end up not killing the villain in order to keep their friend alive, causing the deaths of hundreds as the villain wreaks havoc.

[@samuelbarber6177]

I think Mind Control is one of the most horrifying tropes, just down to the basic concept of not having control over your own actions, especially if your conscious of what’s happening.

[@typhoonzebra]

One approach I really like happened in a book series called Mistborn. A guy was being controlled by a voice in his head but he was never forced to do anything. The voice deliberately convinced him that it was a figment of his imagination brougbt on by madness. Once he was convinced he was mad, the voice never commanded him but stressed him at certain times by saying certain things to make him more likely to do what it wanted. Anytime the voice said "kill him," the guy would ignore him but the voice didn't want him to adhere, only to be brought closer to actual madness by it.

[@typhoonzebra]

Hamburger Helper And it fulfills it. I personally, very much recommend the trilogy.

[@C.O.R.E_Supermacy]

Ahh Zane, the edgiest character in a world where the sky literally rained ash, the sky was blood red, and the world was ruled by an evil overlord with bullshit OP powers.

[@C.O.R.E_Supermacy]

I'm not saying it wasn't done well, cuz we all know how well Brandy Sando constructs his worlds and characters, just pointing out that he was the "edgy, cool dood who the girl will totally fall for".

[@keisha8270]

I loved mistborn

[@angeldark404]

Im going to point out that this rings loudly of Schizophrenia. I appreciate the recommendation for the series. I love psychology. ^^

[@socksbigadventure4910]

Voltron: where every relationship is "debateble"

[@Kimikachu22]

Tramblis Green And the shippers are more toxic than nuclear waste. And more cancerous than radiation poisoning.

[@socksbigadventure4910]

xD

[@caitlinbrewer4843]

@@Kimikachu22 well, you're not wrong. There is a reason I Voltron Tumblr tag.

[@AstraIVagabond]

... Pretty sure that's just the fandom.

[@AstraIVagabond]

(Except maybe in that scene/with that relationship. Haven't watched as far yet.)

[@aldergodric4324]

Me: "I know you're in there fights" are a foregone conclusion Madoka Magica: hold my beer

[@KingOpenReview]

F

[@mr.scarytheterry5039]

F

[@wwhatsthis4168]

F

[@wylee9]

F

[@GlitchyPixExtra]

F

[@sylendraws1249]

I wanna see someone try to overcome mindcontrol through the power of friendship only to have them immediatly get killed because that's not how flippin mindcontrol works

[@kemiography708]

heh.

[@matteussilvestre8583]

Like with Kilgrave's form of mind control from Jessica Jones? IIRC it's "friendship power"-proof.

[@andressotil4671]

Hamburger Helper BtVS season 2 when Angelus kills Jenny right after she finds a way to restore him

[@TubezThe1]

Matteus Silvestre that never really got broken by the power of friendship. A lot of those lasted a long time (the longest he said being either 12 or 24 hours), had certain restraints (using Luke to get close to her), or we're broken through a loophole, like when Killgrave told Trish to put a bullet in her head and Jessica put one in her mouth, ergo bullet in her. head.

[@luisabravo1438]

How do you know that? There have been many scientific studies that show that mind does play a role in treatments

[@tariqthomas9090]

I wonder if there’s a story where the mind-controlled character actually succeeds in killing their friend. I’ve seen it when characters turn evil more so than being mind-controlled.

[@nelsinki5177]

The old-man Logan story it's based on the premise he (or his perception) was controled and he ended killing all the other X-men and a lot of the Avengers, leading to a postapocaliptic world. In anime you had Trigun wich I won't spoil if you didn't saw it, but it was dark and sad every time. That goddamn Legato.

[@luisabravo1438]

Yes there is. And there’s plenty of lovely knife twisting angst after that with the hero’s remaining friends being unsure of what to do with them and the hero being unable to forgive themselves.

[@DragonLandlord]

The last arc in the Shonen Onmyouji anime is. Long story short; the strongest of the group, bf/big brother of the main character, is under a spell that can only be lifted if the mc is killed. The mc cast another spell before he dies so the bf forgets all about him, gets resurrected and is brokenhearted they don't remember while the rest of the team hate the amnesiac bf.

[@jonsnor4313]

The series lexx does it. a guy fights the great villain, just to be turned into an immortal assasin, and gains his coniousness back via a freak accident. And he just gets used as a general assasin for thousend years, the villain is practically immortal.

[@darkflame728]

Yes. This usually leads to the formerly mind controlled character having a ton of guilt afterwards, even if the mind control made it so there was no possible way for them to resist. Or, the mind control could still be in affect after the fact, so the guilt the character feels breaks their will so much that the mind control is made easier. Why keep fighting the mind control when everything you love is dead, and you let it happen?

[@Throwawayyyyyyyyy]

What about body swapping? When two characters have control of each other's body and mind, does it still count as mind control? And also, does things like love potions still count as mind control?

[@calimorales9880]

I would think yes

[@generalr1700]

I’d say that love potions go under the category of brainwashing

[@theunfortunateone7488]

I think it would be body control and brainwashing

[@HuneeBruh]

I don’t think love potions are really kind control, I think it’s more like if an alteration of a few thoughts, not a full control

[@user-dl3vn8ze9n]

@@HuneeBruh But aren't they typically about LITERALLY ALTERING YOU TO NEVER THINK OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE PERSON IT MADE YOU FALL FOR TO WHERE IT'S DEADLY? Yep, just a few thoughts.

[@girlthatisagirl2538]

My favourite part about the mind control stuff is when the person who has the power to control others tries to control a certain person and ends up seeing such insane fucked up stuff that they have to back out of trying to control them.

[@snapgab]

Which frequently happens to people who try to mind control Batman ;p BECAUSE HE"S BATMAN!!!

[@connorschultz380]

snapgab or the joker

[@shadowpod13]

The scene I thought of when you said this was in Naruto. The Sakura vs Ino fight during the chunin exam.

[@meepbeep2464]

I need more examples of this lmao. I just really love the idea of a villain questioning why THEY are the villain and not the F'ed up hero with a darker backstory.

[@pipedream2556]

I can't remember where but I'm sure I saw a version of this where that kind of set off a villain redemption. Like they were the kind of villain who is convinced that bc of what they went through they had no choice but to become this bad person they are now, and the fact that they feel the need to prove so in various ways already told us that they weren't as ironclad certain about this as they claimed. Then the incident you described happened and they had to stew on the undeniable fact that their belief has been proven wrong and nobody else knew that they knew, even the other good guys didn't seem to know how messed up one of their friends was. The fact nobody knew meant they couldn't be confronted by anyone about it, they could pretend nothing had changed for them, but it had, this was bugging them no matter how they tried to ignore it and that eventually led to them, totally in their own, talking themselves down from their villainy.

[@floffy2695]

I'm sorry but the "Character B refers to fight Character A who's under mind control, but character A ends up hurting them anyway and then is guilt-ridden when they come back to their senses" trope is GOLD AND YOU CAN PRY IT OFF MY COLD DEAD HANDS

[@elizabethbilyeu3031]

Mmmm, the angst is strong with that one!

[@ToweringPsychic]

Any recommendations?

[@danicajekic1595]

Power move: have a mind control scene that evolves into an "I know you're in there" fight, and the hero knows that their opponent can be snapped out of the mind control, but they deliberately kill them anyway.

[@calimorales9880]

*OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH*

[@ViewingChaos]

That is a completely evil move. -I like that twist... Perhaps the hero is too angry to bother forgiving the person, or that they are starting a spiral into evil...

[@jordanfleming7022]

You could make it so that for the mind control to work, the villain must bind their soul/mind to one of the protagonist’s in order to control it. But because of the bond, if the protag dies, so does the villain. One villain could set out to kill their rival, and kill one of the good guys in the process - a double whammy.

[@mckaylamarille8630]

@@jordanfleming7022 And the snapper-outter decides to sacrifice the life of an ally to defeat the controller. Definitely a hard choice for the hero, depending on their morals, and nice window for the audience to question and interpret the 'for the greater good' argument.

[@sand_sand7304]

@@jordanfleming7022 or a minion

[@skyhideaway]

I love to see a mind-controlled instance in a story where the character's love interest is earnestly yelling "I know you're in there somewhere! Don't you recognize me? We've been together for so long, I can't afford to lose you! Not again!" then one of the other members just strike the mind-controlled person down with a pipe.

[@DDlambchop43]

I know an instance of character A is mind controlled but knows it and can't do anything about it. Character B does the "I know you're in there, fight it, you're brainwashed" stuff, and A says, " I know, but it doesn't matter" cause they can't break it. At All.

[@digestivecookie7026]

Ok but what if “the virus” is a genuinely likable character and, over much angst and slow development from anti-villain to anti-hero and possibly to hero, all with the overhanging truth that they’re inhabiting another character’s body and are going to have to let go of that at some point/there is an active time limit they just have to wait out (which offers a lot of existential angst, although having the virus give it up themself is a really compelling idea if harder to execute), all while the real character is kind of begrudgingly going along with and maybe getting attached to this idiot’s bumbling between villainy and heroism because they can’t do much else but give the virus headaches the villains are angry at the betrayal, the heroes are upset at corroborating with this thing that looks like their friend, it’s great Maybe you can throw in a metaphor about life itself and how it’s all about “the struggle within the cycle” or something The closest thing I can think of to this is Ling from FMA:Brotherhood? Which sort of applies, I would say

[@richardgibson8403]

Digestive Cookie solution, put thing in artificial body, solved

[@thebookworm5048]

@Digestive Cookie try Jack Blank by Matt Myklusch

[@digestivecookie7026]

@@thebookworm5048 I’ll have to check that out 👀

[@allisterthebirb4142]

This makes me want a version of the virus trope where the virus accidentally inhabits someone and didn't even realise it (the virus) was alive. At first it tries taking over the host but eventually just sits back in the mind and lets its host do its thing. Also it's super snarky and cracks jokes a lot so there's these random moments where the host's friends are wondering why it's laughing for no reason and the host can't explain it's The Virus™ else it'll get evicted. Maybe throw in some emotional moments where The Virus™ helps the host get through some emotional times and give it some pep talks and in general just becomes a great friend to its host. Eventually becoming a kind of moral compass? Or the virus is actually malicious and does the stuff above to get close enough to the host that it can take over and manipulate them easier. Villain one goes 1 of 2 ways: - There's a nature vs nurture subplot where it thinks it has to be Bad™ because it's a virus. - Emotional moment where the host has to destroy their virus pal or else it destroys/harms a lot more people.

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

"You killed your friends, Greed!"

[@ms.bumblebee7975]

Another sub genre for this trope would be the hivemind, where several people are being mind controlled by one villain and it’s almost always an essential part of the plot instead of a one episode thing. This version could also evoke multiple I-know-you’re-in-there-somewhere-fights. Unsurprisingly, it can be very angsty.

[@metaparalysis3441]

haha scps go brr (you know how many hivemind scps there are)

[@meepbeep2464]

I actually wanna more about this, I've been trying to describe it for a very long time but couldn't find the word for this, so thank you!

[@wilburdbrewer2409]

The egg

[@HOLDENPOPE]

*Cybermen* *Flood*

[@wilddragonsong2994]

Ahh yes, for the glory of Horde Prime

[@matthewmuir8884]

Great video. One thing I'm surprised you didn't mention was the trope: More than Mind Control, where the villain, instead of fighting the mind controlee's free will, is actually utilizing it. This enables the villain to taunt the hero by saying, "I'm not making [them] do anything [they] didn't already want to do."

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

Matthew St. Cyr Can you give me an example where that happens?

[@matthewmuir8884]

Sure. If I'm not mistaken, a lot of hypnotist antagonists in recent media fall under this category; they usually combine hypnotism with "getting inside people's heads". The Mad Hatter in Gotham, for example, utilizes Jim Gordon's depression to hypnotise him into wanting to kill himself whenever he hears a ticking sound. A similar thing happens in season 1 of Agent Carter. For a possession example of this: Prince Takumi in Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest. Anankos worms his way into Takumi's mind and slowly possesses him, but was able to do so because of Takumi's resentment of the protagonist. But I believe that the most notable example may in fact be the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings. It corrupts the minds of those who wear it (or even simply near it in Boromir's case), but it does so by finding something about the wearer that it can exploit.

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

Matthew St. Cyr Thanks, those are some very good examples

[@matthewmuir8884]

You're welcome. To be honest, one reason I was hoping Red would mention this trope is that I personally find it far more interesting than regular mind control. I feel the fact that it acknowledges that humans can't overpower other humans' free will gives it more plausibility, and it opens up more to explore in terms of what it can and can't do, as well as the angst that comes as a result; because there's the question of how much did the person really want to do those things.

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

Matthew St. Cyr Yeah instead of mind control it's more like hypnosis/brain washing. You see, I once watched a video specifically touching upon the subject of brain washing and hypnosis was actually a sub-category if I remember correctly. But to actually make my point clear: There is a type of brain washing called "Suggestive" and it doesn't force you to do anything. Like the name says it suggests something and plants an idea in your head, how much you give into the idea is based on your own desires. I think that would really fit what you're talking about.

[@JustinY.]

I think I've heard a hentai about this

[@skilletlord3800]

Justin Y. I sense a disturbance in the force

[@sparkyceasar8859]

Justin Y. Sup

[@XONIXSM]

Heard?

[@JezzyJango]

Ugly bastard?

[@ruikirisame1744]

L o n e l y K n i g h t, we don't talk about nyuu here

[@SaurierSlash]

One of my favorite types of mind control would have to be really subtle, paranoia-inducing brainwashing. Imagine a villain uses some sort of magic trick or magic science in order to alter the personality of a hero, but in a really, really subtle way. Like, they make decisions preprogrammed by the brainwashing that further the villain's evil plan without strictly contradicting their personality. An example would be an otherwise reasonable character saying "Let's split up gang!" in a stressful situation where people are likely to make mistakes. In a universe where mind control is known to exist, this is a guaranteed recipe for character drama. People accuse each other of being brainwashed, but they can neither conclusively prove nor disprove it. There might be quarantine measures for everyone even suspected of being mind controlled. A story told from the POV of such a brainwashed character would also be fascinating. Like, if you are brainwashed like that, how could you even tell? The character would have to critically analyze their past actions and constantly second guessing themselves while searching for evidence of mind control. Pure paranoia fuel. Sadly, it's kinda underused in fiction. Worm's Simurgh is the only example I know of. Blindsight by Peter Watts also did something in this direction, but didn't milk the paranoia fuel to its full potential.

[@juliasnyder7284]

"Let's split up, gang!" giving me Scooby Doo vibes over here

[@DavidbarZeus1]

There was something SIMILAR to that in the Superman series Smallville. In the episode Sliver, Clark is infected by a silver kryptonite that slowly builds his paranoia to delusional levels. Only his college professor, Milton Fine is able to help him because he's Kryptonian. Naturally, at the end of the episode we find out that Milton Fine is actually Brainiac and the silver kryptonite was actually part of him.

[@paintedcrow]

The webcomic Girl Genius plays with this a *lot.* It's really good!

[@UnluckiestPleb]

you get it

[@monikakavaliunaite8017]

Would "reverse amnesia" count as mind control? Let's say a character doesn't remember anything that happened before like 5 years ago. In those 5 years they become great friends with the other protagonists, but then the bad guy somehow cures the amnesia so the character suddenly remembers their old evil morals and beliefs and therefore become evil or at least antagonistic

[@meepbeep2464]

Doesn't really sound like mind control to me because the bad guy isn't really controlling how the character to think or isn't really controlling anything at all, The antagonist just chose to bring back the darkness inside the character, but the character chose to control their actions not the antagonist.

[@tylerwise866]

Overly Sarcastic Productions, have you thought about tackling the "there can only be one" trope?

[@covenawhite4855]

The Chosen One Trope has been done on this show. You Tube Search Trope Talk Chosen Ones for a nice 15 minute videos on multiple types of Chosen Ones and how they affect a story

[@tylerwise866]

Covena White I was referring to when two characters with the same abilities or goals fight it out to see who is the best in that criteria because "there can only be one". ex, Highlander, Yakuza 0, Yakuza 2, The Flash, etc. This isn't as prominent as the chosen one trope but could still be explored.

[@tylerwise866]

"There can only be one" is usually applied to major/minor villains and in battle royale stories. Rival characters can sometimes fit within the trope but have such a distinct criteria that they probably deserve their own trope talk.

[@CallenExile]

It's similar to rival, but the rivals have to be killed or stripped of their power in order to fulfil the trope.

[@silvertonguer]

I love mind control in animation. I always look forward to those episodes. Every kind of mind control is good content. I love the angst that comes from it. I have seen minds being controlled by music and that's one of my favorites.

[@thedorkknight9684]

YES!!! Mind control songs are ALWAYS AMAZING. Hightly recomend "You're Mine" from DC super hero girls 2019 (rock ballad with surprisingly creepy visyals and amazing lyrics, what else do you need), and "Under our Spell" and "Welcome to the show" from Equestria Girls: Rainbow Rocks. You got any suggestions? I'm always open to more!

[@Jashin325]

Would you consider doing an episode on the trope of the "mysterious past come back to haunt them"? Its hard for me to explain but basically the [Hero/Father of ___ has to leave suddenly to protect ___ because ___ from their past has come back for unfinished business] like in a handful of anime or like the newest god of war

[@yanshero42]

Wisecrack also made a great video reviewieng that!

[@jonsnor4313]

Someone from the past and no one knows if it is the real person or a trick(scifi). Yes.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

So, basically the plot of Deathstroke: Knights and Dragons?

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Well it looks like a Jedi Mind Trick is a form of hypnosis! How amusing, I never though of myself as a hypnotist!

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Is it? The way it is depicted in the movies, the Jedi Mind Trick is more like suggestion. It makes people think they had the idea themselves.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

It is still hypnosis then, for it allows me to take over their mind for the brief moment, give them an idea or action they cannot refuse (unless they are strong minded), and then leave them to act on that idea. It's just done in a subtle way so to not key in other people that the target is a victim of a Jedi Mind Trick.

[@MorganMalfoy13]

Waving away taking away people’s free will by going, oh it only works on the weak minded, is so fricken problematic. And these are the GOOD guys?!

[@Alforbia]

Real-life hypnosis is really good for giving people the impression they had the idea themselves.

[@tsarzamancorpdna]

I mean you mind controlled somebody to stop selling death sticks and rethink their lives

[@idontcare6736]

Ah, mind control It left a very big impact on young impressionable me I now have both a deep-seated fear and a strange fascination with it

[@icepawtheyugiohdumbass9955]

Same

[@mediatorraptor3349]

Same

[@AnimeboyIanpower]

Same. Particularly with hypnosis.

[@malaizze]

Same but in a deeply erotic way

[@ArchbowMistress]

Same but with Possession

[@viktorayy]

Yes, another Trope Talk! *My favorite!!*

[@blueraven9661]

One of my favorite tropes, tbh. It's like a guilty pleasure for me, lmao

[@ambiguousmax7478]

Same, love me some angsty mind control

[@justplantthings9829]

Saaaaame

[@Emi-kr9no]

its just got so much angst potential and awesome character interactions we would never be able to see otherwise

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

Blu Raven Same tbh but I have have a hard time finding anything compelling in terms of this trope. Do you know any movies or series where there's a good storyline including this?

[@Emi-kr9no]

I find the spectacular spiderman venom plotline with this trope very interesting. Its got a lot of layers to it, Of course that may just be me

[@TinyAquaticDinoThing]

I've loved mind control tropes since I was a kid. It was the first trope I truly understood at a young age. I think this just speaks to my overdramatic and controlling nature as a perrson

[@malaizze]

I loved mind control because I’m a sub but to each his own

[@electroflame6188]

How about the case of 'there is no way to break the mind control at all so the one being controlled has to be killed'?

[@TurtleTime26]

I think at that point it almost becomes a Fallen Hero trope, especially if it falls under the brainwashing or virus category. If there's truly no way to break out of the mind control, it probably means that the person has stopped mentally fighting against it and has been completely overwritten by this new, other personality. The body is still theirs, but the mind is all but gone.

[@thechainwarden]

@@TurtleTime26 This sounds like victim blaming. But in all seriousness it can work with possession for example the possessing entity has taken over the body completely and the original person is just stuck in a small corner of the mind not being able to do anything. Basically the "I know you are in there talk" can't fix everything scenario.

[@maramnaina6493]

Kind of like that in Re:Zero except it's possession not mind control

[@YataTheFifteenth]

@@maramnaina6493 but Subaru just Re:Spawns in Re:Zero

[@ForrestFox626]

Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest

[@rachellebirch244]

“To... debatable?” REAL FUNNY, RED.

[@ZebraGirl-bk5fq]

Micah Roland Voltron is Voltron bleb

[@morganjohnston2179]

Accurate though

[@alexartemisia]

"No need to have a civil war over it" LAWL The best part is that neither Cap nor Tony were being controlled...

[@calimorales9880]

They were just really mad

[@BE-fw1lr]

The point was that they were arguing over whether to blame someone that was mind controlled, not that either of them were.

[@meloneatingwolf1882]

Yeah but… Bucky was and that was they were fighting over.

[@pavise6333]

Zemo played them like a damn fiddle

[@an_angels_grace2685]

"Bucky?" *Multiple movies later, and for a different reason* "Steve?"

[@caitlinbrewer4843]

Gracelyn Casas GO SIT IN THE CORNER!

[@an_angels_grace2685]

Caitlin Brewer NO

[@madammurdock]

W H Y

[@StephanieDev]

Ouch!

[@an_angels_grace2685]

Crescent Animations BECAUSE IF I HAVE TO SUFFER, SO DO YOU

[@coldwind]

When you were going over the forgiveness of the other characters, I got to thinking about the character's ability to forgive themselves, which can often be even harder.

[@miraculoustherainwing8397]

The “I know you’re in there somewhere” fight makes up like 90% of kingdom hearts.

[@FatallyParasocial]

VULPIX used FACTS!

[@slwi7589]

A story im writing did the possession trope in a different way: a soul (that just so happens to be one the most skilled swordsmen) possesses the mc's body and instead of taking it over they agreed to have a symbiotic relationship, to other people it looks like the mc has done a 180 in personality everytime they "switch", the soul even agrees to try not to give the mc a bad reputation (because if anything happens to the mc it also happens to the soul since they now share the same body). In fights the soul gives the mc advice on the battlefield and if the fight is too dangerous the soul takes over. At one point in the story a dark mage hypnotises everyone in town (even the mc) to be his mind slave but the soul still regains his conscience so he took over the mc's body and defeats the mage to undo the spell. There's also a lot of fighting in the mind involved however the mc doesn't fight the soul for his body they just use it so that the soul trains the mc in using a sword, they can also do a lot of things in the mind like generating any kind of object out of thin air, simulate a strategy or even summon meteors just to see what the destruction of the world looks like, they're pretty much gods in the mind. But gradually overtime the mc develops "special needs" in his body (it's not serious like how a vampire needs to drink blood) but it's more like an itch. I tried doing the possession trope differently because majority of these the controller forces the mc to do bad things so this time what if the controller makes a deal with the mc? "I'll help you out in __ if you let me have a body to use." PS: English is not my native language sorry if there are grammar errors.

[@superduper1456]

Your english is great! I never would have guessed english wasn't your native language, and have read things by native english speakers with worse grammar.

[@DaizoDeeVonOfficial]

Greed from Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood is a sort of subversion of mc. While it's still malicious at first, overtime the two souls trade bodies to duel effectively, and there is a genuine bond the two share when it comes to friendship.

[@the_unholynjh3513]

This sounds like a really clever way to use this trope! Good thinking!

[@knweeb514]

So kind of like yuuji and sukuna from jujutsu kaisen

[@THTB_lol]

split personality cmhb

[@legateelizabeth]

For extra "Oh god why" storytelling, what about a character who is mind controlled, and remembers how they felt when they were bad... and enjoys it deep down, despite themselves? That's a lot of personal conflict waiting to happen if they can look back on cutting loose and going bad because they were pushed to or forced to do it, and know it's wrong, but find it freeing or just enjoyed being bad. They don't embrace being a villain (at least, not for a little while...) but have a ton of self-resentment because of not what they did, but the fact they relished it. The character who's polite and keeps the team together got to be brutally honest, the overlooked character or comic relief got everyone to respect them because they could fight properly, the shy character got to be confident, etc etc; if that life has something that tempts them, being able to experience it even after everyone forgiving them for 'not being themselves' when they were still aware and didn't' resist as hard as they could because they enjoyed it could be an arc for personal development... or even the first step on the path to the dark side.

[@jonsnor4313]

Angel the vampire in his good series.When he looses his soul.

[@martiqueheisler5959]

I like that idea tbh

[@Sorain1]

It's an effective way to get a character to a personal revelation or acknowledgement of some aspect to them. Unrealistic, but useful when your realism is low enough to use it without breaking SOD in your audience. Another use I've been looking into is 'Setting Down the Moral Load'. Basically, when you are not in control of your actions, of the power at your disposal, you are not shouldering the moral/ethical burden it carries with it. Throw Superman's powers on someone and they are now stuck shouldering the moral burden of all that power every second of every day. The reason the World Of Cardboard speech resonates with people IRL is that we all shoulder the moral burden of free will all our lives. It's easy to understand how having so much more power brings with it so much more burden and sympathize with that. An example I'm working out how to use is an (effectively) cyborg character who has a totally amoral 'normal mode' which is effectively not them anymore, just a machine for carrying out combat. So where as Ico (the character) has to constantly consider the impact of throwing around firepower in a populated city, or what the consequences to others are if Ico flees a fight? Normal Mode has no such issues. Hostages, collateral damage or the potential harm to teammates isn't even considered by it's logic engine. Horrifying enough, but it is effective at fighting and it's the only time Ico can put down the moral burden of all that power. Being asleep you can't enjoy that your not carrying that load and that is the only other time it isn't a constant weight on Ico. There has to be some temptation to think "well this situation is safe enough' to turn on Normal Mode to resolve a situation. It's not like it can be enabled outside of combat to set aside the burden safely, so it's less 'addictive drug' like in character problem. I'd only realized how freeing that would be for Ico a few days ago so I'm still trying to figure out how to handle it.

[@KyluxWolf]

I think Lapis of Steven Universe did that, after being released from the Malachite fusion she realized that she actually missed it, even knowing it was a toxic relationship

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

Sorain1 So Ico activates it himself?

[@Thestin]

Something I would love to see would be a bad guy disguising as a good guy, and when he starts attacking everyone, they think he has been mind controlled, and try to snap him out, but then the bad guy realizes he would probably die if he stayed a bad guy and pretends to snap out of it.

[@uncroppedsoop]

First half is Omniman, but he really committed to the whole "killing the heroes" part

[@astrobookwormsinger]

I think one struggle all creators struggle with is the signs and proofs of whether or not a relationship is romantic or platonic. The thing is, romance and friendship have a LOT of overlapping signs that can signify either one. This is why we have all these ships between characters which are canonically 'friends' in pop culture. Could you please elaborate on this? Thanks a lot :) You're doing an amazing job. Keep it up ♥

[@emilleanthonette]

Clara L. Young Trope Talk : Romantic Subplots. Check it out.

[@gliscorpropagandaaccount1764]

To quote the summary of a handful of episodes of my favorite podcast (written by a member of the podcast), "They aren't dating, but they totally are." _-Then again, Kyle also said Hop and Lorraine were dating-_

[@valkyrierain313]

Mind control villain: Exists Cat Noir: "MY TIME HAS COME"

[@adolphaselrah9506]

Rosalind McCollum (929RosMcCo) When is Cat Noir not being mind controlled by a villain?

[@221bornot2b]

Cat Noir and Tuxedo Mask: *Hypnotized so our girlfriend can save us to switch gender role norms* HIGH FIVE!

[@BM-ts1yi]

@@221bornot2b Dang it, now I want fanart of that.

[@the_unholynjh3513]

This is depressingly true

[@jasonbell8515]

You mean King Dedede

[@gamongames]

10:38 One thing very similar to this exists and real life, with very controversal ramifications, that is mental conditions. There's this famous story about a guy that had a family and a job and a normal life and suddenly started becoming more aggresive and abusive and his behavior changed almost completely to the point his family said he had a different personality, he assaulted his wife and kids and ended up in jail, where they discovered a brain tumor affecting his behavior. The tumor now removed he quickly faded back to his old self, but now serving time and having lost the love of his family. Was he responsible for his own actions? Tough call. That right there is almost a cliche show plot and totally terrifying.

[@stormyperson44]

Type 1: Geas Type 2: Dominate Person Type 3: Command Type 4: Charm Person Type 5: Seeming Type 6: Long-term roleplay

[@Daemonworks]

The Mask presents another version: Corruption. In the comics, anyone who wears the mask becomes pure Id. No sense of self control, shame, restraint of any sort. You just act on whatever impulse you've got with no regard for others, consequences, etc. But unlike others, it's still very much you in the driver's seat. It doesn't /make/ you do anything... You see weak versions a lot combined with other forms of mind control, but in it's purest form it's generally the most terrifying.

[@messofabeing9392]

It just gets rid of the stuff in your brain that hold you back? That's cool

[@aster-naut]

Reminds me of Jekyll and Hyde (some versions more than others)

[@richardgibson8403]

@Mess of a Being if you get slightly mad at someone you might just fucking kill them because of a single moment of anger. Not cool.

[@adelaestrella3338]

I've come up with a version of the mind control trope: the hidden redemption fight! In this the charecter is already evil and is now showing there true colors,the hero then trys to initiate the "I know your in there somewhere fight" But during said fight the charecter sees how much the hero cares for them and thinks "Hey,I actually like this guy,you know what screw being evil I'm going to join there side" and loses on purpose.The hero thinks they snapped ther friend out of it they continue on there merry way,never knowing what truly happened

[@sopand2489]

This could have a neat guilt arc with the "mindcontrolee"

[@completely_original9760]

as someone very much in in the voltron fandom, i can say i thoroughly lost all my shit at 8:40 thank you, red

[@astrobookwormsinger]

completely_original Relatable, I'm a Marvel Stan 😂

[@ingonyama70]

I'm both so this was DOUBLY soul-twisty.

[@eggtime6261]

oof

[@caitlinbrewer4843]

Exactly!

[@matteussilvestre8583]

The dislikes must be coming from Hawkeye.

[@f.i.r.e.5119]

I approve of this comment.

[@Sleksin]

I like the idea of someone breaking the mind control on themselves due to essentially narcissism. Someone is able to overpower their mind and control their actions, making them do all kinds of horrible things, but when they get cocky and try to force the subject to submit to them more literally or do something that otherwise hurts their pride/ego, they immediately snap out of it and proceed to beat up the former mind controller.

[@linwong1494]

Majin Vegeta basically. Dude's too narcissistic to really be controlled, he was just on board with getting the extra push to commit murder.

[@kuro02kuro]

omg this is so good

[@viktorayy]

Mind control? *I hope Red talks about the dude from My Hero!*

[@rougestarlight4308]

Same 😂😂

[@ssj1k564]

viktorayy :D 【animated】 lol I was thinking the same thing

[@chicnuggs8238]

same

[@rachellebirch244]

Shinsou?

[@waterfox2110]

SHINSHO HITOSHI!!!!!

[@aceofthorns7944]

That versions of mind control where the character slowly loses control over their minds just freaks me out. It's insanely scary to me.

[@yin-sin]

And there’s the “person who was mind controlled doesn’t forgive themselves while their friends/teammates forgives them”

[@demonicgamerazazel9866]

Ive always been a bigger fan of the "More than Mind Control" trope, where the character is having their genuine darkness inside them, one theyd never act on normally, exploited to turn them into truly evil beings

[@ninanightmare6298]

I’m actually planning on making a few mind-control stories with my character except with what I would think would be a fun twist: Instead of what you call an “I know you’re in there somewhere” fight, my character will spiral out of the villain’s control due to a curse put on them and then becomes a primal beast that will hunt down their manipulator and attempt to kill them regardless if they plea for their mercy or whatever would stand in their way. As for the heroes accompanying this character, they sometimes wouldn’t even recognize their savage comrade because of how drastically different they act and appear; and if the heroes think of stopping their rampage, they would be killed on sight, leading them to try and survive the night until the sun rises and the character reverts back to normal. What do you think?

[@mediatorraptor3349]

Do it. I been wanting to see fun twist with mind control for a long time.

[@MagpieDynamics]

"Good, clean, stupid knife-twisting fun" There's a rare sentence.

[@scifikoala]

Is it embarrassing that this was my absolute favorite trope when I was younger? The ANGST

[@fictional-girl_05]

Nothing like an emotional line to snap the character out of it! ("Family, Luke. You promised.")

[@sopand2489]

And....... you re-broke my heart. Ya Percy Jackson fandom!

[@RealmsCrossMyths]

So… What about the other side… Good guys mind controlling the bad guys…? You want examples? • 7 Deadly Sins • My Hero Academia Both have heroes who's powers a specifically called out as forms of mind control.

[@MiBen773]

that girl Are you talking about Shinso ?

[@SepulchureValen]

Star wars is easily the best example of this.

[@Sorain1]

I think the single worst power type you could get in fiction is some variants of mind control. I mean, what are you going to do with that? Never use it? What happens when the plot inevitably finds you and now you have someone enthralled to your will? What if they're a terrible person, do you let them go? There's a few 'no win' scenarios out there and when your only hammer is some kind of coercion, everything looks like a nail pointed at your wrists.

[@thewhispererindarkness9117]

Sorain1 "What if they're a terrible person, do you let them go?" You could make them confess their crimes and break control after they've been arrested.

[@Kimikachu22]

Star Wars Old Republic. You are once a Sith brainwashed to becoming a Jedi. Is what the jedi did morally good? To turn a once bloodthirsty monster into a force (pun intended) for good by... well, force (hahahaha)?

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

Aaaaaaaand here's a like. Don't worry. I'm doing this of my own free will...Am I? Yes, I am. For sure. *looks away in concern*

[@wlll1235]

Now I'm just picturing some protagonist who's being puppeted, but they know what they're about to do, so in the "I know you're in there fight" the protagonist is just calling out what they're about to do, and the secondary protagonist is just effortlessly blocking, dodging and parrying hits. Eventually the puppeteer just gives up in this scenario.

[@THTB_lol]

doc louis' punch out

[@cathalhughes5996]

The problem with using hypnosis is its irl flaws like the fact that the person needs to want to be under the trance and they can't be told to do something which is against their nature. If anyway hypnosis is the weakest form of mind control. Although it could be used to show that a characters true nature is evil. Lets say a person is put under hypnosis but everyone thinks its brainwashing cause of how brutal they are acting but then it turns out the character actually liked the feeling of killing another and then slowly turn to the dark side

[@bipedleek241]

Stonersloth Hughes if I was writing a story with hypnosis I’d combine it with changing perception to fix that

[@Monderoth]

And yet the hypnosis communities online have no shortage of abusers. The unfortunate thing is that everyone wants things that may be blatantly unhealthy for them or could be twisted into something unhealthy. Guilt, vices, addictions, doubts, self destructive behaviors, and even morals especially may be exploited by an abusive partner. The only thing that makes hypnosis different from the average abuse is that the hypnotist may better ingrain it within the subject to cause them to internalize their suggestions. That kind of trauma is massively destructive to the person, and even if they break off the relationship they may never fully recover when the abuser's words follow them everywhere. To provide an example of exploiting morals, it's easy to convince your partner that they should be beaten bloody if they're convinced that they deserve it.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

Depends on how you go about it, I think. I believe that hypnosis CAN make you do anything, all you need is the proper amount of time. Hypnotize someone to do something that they normally wouldn't do but sets them on the road to doing what you REALLY want from them and then just keep reinforcing the hypnosis pushing them down that slope.

[@ButterflyScarlet]

The perception change thing is really interesting, and it's one of the hardest things to prove in the Law and Order: Fictional Victims Unit (dun dun) because if a character murders someone while in that state, how do you prove that they were being manipulated? It's not like real life where certain chemicals do make you hallucinate and act violently and it's actually possible to do blood tests. I think the most heart-wrenching version of this I've seen was in RWBY with Emerald's semblance

[@MercuryA2000]

to be fair Ruby diiiiid tell her to break a leg. Sorry...

[@Limrasson]

Well, you could employ a cipher, I guess.

[@jessiec3390]

Zone Doll I liked how this was addressed in Harry Potter. The ministry can‘t separate the people who supported Voldemort and those who were under the imperious curse so they all get off, including Lucius Malfoy. It showed how hard it would be if this existed in real life.

[@endy7630]

Also, can we stop the super obvious eye changing whenever someone is mind controlled? We all know what's about to happen whenever some normal-eyed anime dude suddenly gets bright red eyes with no pupils, they're either mind-controlled or evil.

[@pinkajou656]

Well, it’s a realllly really helpful visual clue that helps solidify the mind control for the audience. It also helps make it clear when they’ve snapped out of it, otherwise it could get very confusing. Although this isn’t true all the time.

[@uncroppedsoop]

@@pinkajou656 it feels like hand-holding though

[@StarDustedCloud]

It probably is something about the "The eyes are the windows to the soul" thing, but that's just a speculation

[@thatrandomweeb]

@Pinkajou I totally agree. One of my characters gets completely possessed by the BBEG and the main way you know if he's in control or not is if his eyes are a normal blue, or red with black sclera

[@thesilverprincess]

It depends for me. Sometimes it’s a visual cue that’s really helpful so you can tell easier, sometimes it’s annoying.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

After seeing this video, Anakin's fall somewhat resembles the "virus" type of mind control with the Dark Side slowly twisting his mind until he became the very thing he "swore to destroy". We even have a dramatic battle where I try to break though to him but to no avail. Granted Anakin still had free will and made the choices that led him down that path but the Dark Side was always meant to be addictive and alluring. Perhaps it's a suedo-mind control, where Anakin made the moral choice to allow the Dark Side in and did not fight the Dark Side out of desperation even when he knew he was committing evil. By the end of his fall, he feels that there is no point in still fighting and that he is too far gone to come back. At least Luke managed to "cure" and he had the heroic sacrifice at the end. :-)

[@Alias_Anybody]

The dark side is basically a very addictive drug.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Yeah, the Force was always meant to be a metaphor for morality, with the Dark Side repenting evil and the good represented by the Jedi. Once you start to do bad things, it become easier and easier to keep doing bad things and the harder it is to convince your self to do good again. The Dark Side can stand in for any number of evil things like drugs, killing, stealing, lying, hating, etc.

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Obi-Wan Kenobi Tell that the Grey Jedi freaks. They are the trope "Golden mean Fallacy" incarnate.

[@kanecarlton7460]

Suede mind control is the most fashionable type of mind control.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Didn't you know we Jedi are hard core fashionistas? All our robes are made from silk and we only use lightsaber colors that match our outfits. (Seriously though, thanks for helping me with that accidentally amusing typo.)

[@rocketlanterns]

In your chart of "types of mind control vs accountability of character", Hypnosis should be a bit higher because during suggestive hypnosis (which covers anything short of outright reprogramming a person) still allows the subject to reject the suggestions if they don't approve of what it is. i.e. if someone is under suggestive hypnosis and is an asshole, its because they aren't morally against being an asshole.

[@CareerKnight]

That's how hypnosis works in real life (when it works at all), fiction usually completely ignores this and allows people to be hypnotized into doing anything regardless of who they are.

[@SCarr8813]

squaswin they did kind of touch on this Supergirl and other shows have handled this well. Where the friends and family let go of the painting because "oh ok, mind control sucks" but the victim is left with the knowledge that it "They just pushed me, and I leapt into it." It's definitely not used enough but it is dangerous because it leads into the very adult conversation about what we think we want then being manipulated into doing it when we know we don't really want to.

[@moonleafteaofthemonth]

Did Jet just...die? You know, it was really unclear.

[@elizabeths123]

Mind control is one of my favourite guilty pleasure tropes. Sure, often it's a cheap way to create drama, but it's also a great way to have characters act OOC and explore different dynamics with other characters. It's fun angst and rarely has lasting consequences. That said, my favourite uses of the trope explore the consequences afterwards, like with The Winter Soldier.

[@scarlettkara2762]

I'm very surprised that Jessica Jones wasn't brought up. I feel like Kilgrave would be a very good example of some of these tropes

[@a.half.cadence]

Exactly! I have been searching for a comment about this for ages! I'm glad someone else noticed. I think Kilgrave was a really interesting take on the trope because it utilized the concept that the mind-controller might not be in control of their control... if that makes any sense? You know what I mean... right?

[@scarlettkara2762]

@@a.half.cadence Yeah, I do -- although I think in Kilgrave's case, while it started out that way when he was a kid, he slowly gained more control of it until that was the only way he knew how to live. I think the interesting aspect of him falling in love of Jessica is that he recognized that he didn't know how else to live -- making the effort he went through to change (before the tank and his mother and father) that much harder, and Jessica's 'betrayal' sting a whole lot more. Kilgrave, after running away from his parents, learned that he could get whatever he wanted by just asking -- making him turn into a spoiled, manipulative child that he never grew up from.

[@ben2184]

Would a siren song be considered hypnosis?

[@ssj1k564]

I came here faster than Iida

[@Zoopadoopa23]

SSJ 1K i came here faster than all might

[@viktorayy]

I came here faster than Deku using metal and mines to move faster than iida

[@ssj1k564]

RAZZA I wanted to say that but no one says Iida anymore

[@ssj1k564]

viktorayy :D 【animated】 ok that's a good one

[@Zoopadoopa23]

viktorayy :D 【animated】 thats still slower than all might tho...

[@leoryff979]

It's also a very popular theme for sexy pics and OOC stuff on deviantArt. ...Not that I would know too much about that. *cough*

[@megamegatron99]

if you're indeed into lewd mind control, then might i suggest hypnohub.net

[@lmbusiness5300]

Ahem

[@novameowww]

That's just rape with extra steps

[@calimorales9880]

@@novameowww maybe...

[@calimorales9880]

@@lmbusiness5300 best not give my computer viruses

[@the_furf_of_july4652]

I remember LEGO Ninjago, they used hypnosis, except it was more dormant and lasted long after trance broke. Antagonist was able to use the affected character as a spy (seeing through their eyes) and during a later confrontation turn the affected character against his friends much like the effects of brainwashing/possession. I love this use of it, it’s much more insidious.

[@mediatorraptor3349]

Spirit Animal did something like this with one of main character being mind control to be a spy. It explained why the villians were always ahead fo them in their missions.

[@juliasnyder7284]

that show gave me so much emotional trauma and I have no idea why

[@thesilverprincess]

I swear, that was my favorite episode, and as far as I’m aware, they never let a MC get mind controlled again. Disappointing

[@thedorkknight9684]

Scales and Cole in season 1, right? I'd also like to bring up how the Morro Incident had an amazing possession arch with Lloyd.

[@ItsGemystic]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the “seeing through his eyes” part! Insane that I did, considering how obsessed I was with the trope as a kid (and still am, in a way)

[@sinjinreed2091]

I got an ad for hypnotism before this video. Coincidence? ...

[@noniekangas3142]

Ok. That’s just creepy.

[@novameowww]

+Nonie Kangas Nah it's just google. Nevermind, we're both right.

[@richardgibson8403]

Sinjin Reed I THINK *NOT*

[@calimorales9880]

@@richardgibson8403 I wanted to say that...

[@richardgibson8403]

Callie Morales TOO BAD, you can still say it, and people can see my reply to know that I gave you the ok 👌

[@smugsneasel]

Oh my God it's my favourite trope. I feel extremely giddy about this. I'm always interested when mind control is a factor in media. Now that I think about it, it might be a fetish... I blame Totally Spies.

[@EternalKHFan0]

Smug Sneasel I can relate to that.

[@nickhuwe3413]

There are over dozens of us!

[@justafaniv1097]

I swear, someone got hypnotized/brainwashed/mind controlled every other episode. Pretty sure one of the writers had a fetish.

[@mundanespecter4970]

That show sparked a lot of fetishes

[@spiritofchaos58]

pppppst friend look up hypnohub if you REALLY have a fetish.... but you didn't hear that from me

[@ToontownAndCpenguin]

I love that the show Miraculous pretty much goes with the virus type control, in every single episode, & yet, all is forgiven in the end. Yeah, it's a kid's show, sure, but still, those controlled should accept some sort of consequences. In the show, someone somewhere in Paris will go under some extreme emotional distress, a good amount of the time, caused by Chloe who you could argue is almost the main villain of the show given she unknowingly fuels the main villain, but cases do vary from one guy being yelled at by an officer for feeding the pigeons or a kid having a nightmare, anything that causes a strong negative emotion is good enough for our villain, Hawk Moth, to send out his evil butterfly (akuma) to evilize the person suffering from this emotion. The akuma will go into some sort of object that the person has & they turn evil. Hawk Moth has some control but not much, he does have a psychic link with the person & will threaten to take their power away (when they turn evil, they get some sort of power & can use it to seek revenge on whoever did them wrong) if they don't comply with his demands which is pretty much to get the miraculous (an accessory that gives them power) of Ladybug & Cat Noir. A fair trade, most people take it, grab the objects that give our heroes their powers & in exchange, they can do whatever they want with their new given power. It's still kind of a mind control, they go upon actions they wouldn't normally take & they do forget everything that has happened once they're freed from the control & freeing them is destroying whatever object the akuma is in & Ladybug restores everything as well as de-evilize the akuma. They always regret that they did what they did even though they don't remember it but like, everyone always forgives them even though they had a solid level of control. I guess you can say they're not in the right state of mind which does help people to forgive them but still, come on. It seems that their free passes does get some explanation in an episode where this super nice, apparently nearly perfect teacher (that had almost no spotlight on her before) gets possessed & she actually fought it in the beginning. She knew what was happening & didn't want to turn evil, it was kind of a weak excuse for her to be the target because the original target was Marinette (she's Ladybug) but the teacher, Ms. Bustier, brings her out of those negative emotions that the akuma was targeting. Everyone there knows what an akuma is & what it does, she saw the akuma & got scared, scared that it's going after one of her students & it was apparently negative enough emotions that it could use that. She did try fighting it, she was strong, she still lost. I guess it shows no matter how much you resist, you will be overtaken which helps in giving them a free pass. They still side with the villain, I feel everyone at least needs to get a slap on the wrist or something, maybe have them serve some community service or something. I don't know, it's probably the only example of a low stakes virus type of controls out there & it is unique in that. Maybe watch a few episodes to get an idea of what I'm talking about then form a solid opinion on this type of control & how it can easily be forgiven. Maybe it's because it is low stakes, everything does get repaired in the end & it could happen to anyone, but the show doesn't exactly explain these things, you gotta work at finding some sort of conclusion yourself.

[@letmetakeajormungandrattha8591]

I tried reading all of that, but I might have skimped on some things. I remember Ivon getting teases in the origin episode, but that’s all I remember for now.

[@moonfirearc6793]

It's probably because of the fact that they expect Ladybug to fix everything. Chat Noir's cataclysm? MIRACULOUS LADYBUG. Property damage? MIRACULOUS LADYBUG. Chloe's personality? Nope because she had that before the fight. Since Ladybug's red sparkly jets of light fix everything after a fight and the fact that Team Miraculous is expected to ALWAYS WIN, no lasting damage whatsoever.

[@pRahvi0]

@@moonfirearc6793 ...except the indirect damage, such as the poster of Adrien that was vandalized by Chloe's friend who was hit by the hate arrow shot by Dark Cupid*. Still, non compos mentis - and I guess the ever increasing number of people getting akumatized themselves encourages public forgiveness. Since it can be anyone and there's little to do to avoid it, there's also no point in punishment. *Good thing Hawk Moth is only after the Cat Noir and Ladybug's jewls; because if he wanted to, he could burn the world via complicated enough chain reactions, which no amount yelling with lucky charms could repair. O__O

[@letmetakeajormungandrattha8591]

@@moonfirearc6793 Okay, so, I've been wondering this for a while, and... does "MIRACULOUS LADYBUG!" all bring back people who were killed during the period of the fight, or no?

[@moonfirearc6793]

@@letmetakeajormungandrattha8591 if it wasn't a kids show and people actually died on screen... Probably. I mean, MIRACULOUS LADYBUG fixes all physical damage so... I assume so? But it's a kids show so no deaths!

[@FishfaceTheDestroyer]

Fun thing with mind control that nobody ever does: I'm running a tabletop campaign where one of the friendly NPCs is actually a brainwashed sleeper agent with powers they forgot they had. One of my players figured this out, and then brainwashed them herself into forgetting their existing trigger and unlocking their powers while she was at it. She also brainwashed the NPC into being her sort-of girlfriend because she's a dubious little fluff ball of Chaotic Neutral hijinks like that.

[@Kimikachu22]

I think I saw this once before. I believe Star Wars Old Republic kinda did that with the main character where you are once a feared bloodthirsty sith and after a defeat you are taken a brainwashed by the jedi to become their weapon against the sith, which opened up tons of questions whether or not what the jedi did was morally right since while they did indeed brainwashed you they brainwashed you to become.... well.... less evil? It kinda turned the whole brainwashing thing around since it was the sith whom are trying to snap you out of it, this time not with the power of friendship, but instead with the power of good ol R E V E N G E !

[@verdethestarwarrior1088]

Since you've done the Five Man Band, maybe next you could discuss the Five BAD Band?

[@icecube815]

You talking about a villain team up? She talked about that a lot in the "Power of Friendship" video.

[@jonsnor4313]

Isnt that the same, with villains.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

Has she covered the Four Generals trope? I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but there always seems to be four evil generals. I'd be down for some Revelations on how that got started.

[@fictionfan0]

+Ned Barks Kinda, but with usually a twist, like how the Evil!Lancer is more like the extremely loyal general rather than someone who's character is defined by his relationship to his Leader, or how the Evil!Heart spends a good chunk of time trying to break the hero team apart rather than be a moral (or *im*moral, as the case may be) center for her own.

[@AnimeboyIanpower]

@@fictionfan0 I think the Evil!Lancer goes by the title "The Dragon".

[@Monsuco]

Are there any works where a mind controlled character actually wins the "I know you're in there" fight and kills off a major good guy character only to be snapped out of it afterwards (possiblity right afterwards by the realization of what he just did)? That could be gut wrenching.

[@lemonsqueezy444]

How to Train Your Dragon 2