Tuvix: Did Janeway Murder an Innocent Man?

[@garym6315]

I love how the transporter had enough fashion sense to give him a merged costume that looks awesome.

[@AngelSebastianLeon]

Transporters and replicators have the same technology and we know transporters can save patters so... Yes, transporters could have some fashion subroutines.

[@MichaelBuieFilms]

I thought that was nice attention to detail, too.

[@alecott2745]

How about saving a copy of Tuvix in the "pattern buffer" and then after separating the two, materialize Tuvix back to life? There were two Rikers after all. And if they didn't want him as a re-occurring character, there are all kinds of "tragic" ways to get rid of him.

[@AkuTenshiiZero]

Star Trek has a bad habit of forgetting they can pretty much clone people at any time.

[@RatchildUK]

A clone isn’t the original person, it’s just someone else who looks like you.

[@Grabthar191]

@@RatchildUK ... who secretly wants to murder and replace you with themselves... :P

[@maxmercer1931]

This

[@anaudio]

Exactly what I was gonna say. Other than that, I don't care about these things. xD It's just a tv show, especially in this case. I would've done the same as Janeway. Especially if it was as easy as shown.

[@BlazingOwnager]

I think the ultimate reason this constantly comes up is not the choice they made. But the fact someone is running around the bridge begging for their life and everybody cold shoulders them like they're in a sadistic episode of the Twilight Zone. And it's never mentioned again..

[@shauntempley9757]

No, everyone cold shouldered him, because he was an accidental creation. They all agreed with Janeway, that Neelix and Tuvok should be restored. Tuvix had no right to take the place of both men, or make decisions on behalf of the other men. In many ways, Tuvix is a violation of the Prime Directive by his very existence.

[@tenkenroo]

@@shauntempley9757uvix was an accidental life fully formed with bodily autonomy. He didnt personally rob anything. It’s not his fault he was made. He was 100 percent murdered

[@oddish4352]

That's because Janeway has cult-leader level charisma, inspiring blind allegiance. She puts the Maquis in Starfleet uniforms... they're eating out of her hand in weeks. She destroys Harry's Starfleet career by keeping him at ensign for 7 years... he still reveres her. Voyager visits a human colony where the crew can live out their days in safety... no one stays. Not even the Maquis or Joe Carey, and need I remind you that Janeway promoted Torres to his job after the latter assaulted him. Janeway could have demanded that they make Tuvix into soup and eat him, and they'd have done it.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@oddish4352 Remember Thomas Riker's fate with the Cardassians. That happened, because the Federation Council ordered it. Kira was commanded by them through Sisko, to take the Defiant, the rest of the Maqui crew into custody, and turn Riker over to the Cardassians. The Council did that, because they did not recognise Riker's existence, because he was created by a transporter accident. They made that decision after the Kirk one, when he was divided. The Council made into law, that Federation rights only exist for that person, and that person only. If that person is changed by a transporter, then those rights are instantly suspended, until the issue is rectified and the original person is returned. If Tuvix had happened in the Alpha Quadrant, the Council would have ordered what Janeway did anyway, and the Vulcan Science Council would have been furious that it took so long before it happened. This issue would have had her at a court martial, on the Vulcan's complaint on that point alone.

[@Johnny_Nitro]

@@shauntempley9757 Do you even Star Trek bro? Tuvix IS the very definition of "new life". IDIC is how Tuvix was created. There was no malice when the accident happened, Neelix and Tuvok simply merged into something new. Tuvix begged for his life and Kathy was like "naw, I miss my butler and cook, so time to abort this baby." Janeway is sociopath. Picard would have kept Tuvix alive. What brings my piss to a boil is how Kes the child bride and her crying decides the fate of this poor victim of circumstance.

[@ChrisParrishOutdoors]

Janeway's attitude was 100% a a defense mechanism. She was steeling herself. She came across like a cold psycho because she forced all emotional detachment so she could make the hard call. Chakotay doesn't question her in front of the crew anymore by this episode so doing so at that moment wasn't an option. It would make more sense for Tom to do so as he doesn't usually care about that sort of thing.

[@fidelperez4837]

Chakotay would have asked to speak with her in the ready room, but I also agree that Tom would have said something right then. Can't remember if this was before or after the demotion so maybe that might have been part of Tom not speaking up.

[@tdegrddeehjgd]

@@fidelperez4837 it was like 3 seasons before his demotion.

[@BlazingOwnager]

Nah, Janeway is crazy AF and not in the good way like you want.

[@fidelperez4837]

@@tdegrddeehjgd that's right. i think Neelix was way gone before the demotion

[@Bjorick]

@@fidelperez4837 no, that was in season 5 - i think neelix brings him his food and the pad to write a letter, but neelix is the one who relays the captain's orders - tuvix is season 2 as kes is still there i really think the issue with voyager is that they wanted a woman captain, but they didn't ever stop to think if they could write for a female captain - and they weren't willing or able to do the work - voy had a great premise, but the execution is flawed, too much trek and not enough voyager - they never (other then one off episodes) have the weight and consequences, the ship ALWAYS looks like it just came out of spacedock

[@kerravon4159]

It was a mercy killing, being merged with Neelix is literally a fate worse than death.

[@SansoHumar]

Oh come on. Neelix isn’t that bad.

[@Thomas-VA]

Yours is the only argument I can get onboard with.

[@eyesonthey]

Janeway had the responsibility to do anything she could to bring her best friend back - and Neelix.

[@chidoman1595]

He begged for his life and no one moved an inch to help him. That always messed with me.

[@projektkobra2247]

That was badly written..but look at Uvalde...400...(FOUR HUNDRED!!!!) useless pig cops did NOTHING as CHILDREN were being shot and bleeding to death in agony. There's a century's worth of psychological studies right there...along with the Milgram Experiment or the Kitty Genovese case.

[@meris8486]

Especially given half the crew are Maquis

[@ryancarroll3957]

I like to think they were frozen with uncertainty rather than not giving a fuck. Otherwise you cant look at um same again

[@clintonwilcox4690]

@@ryancarroll3957 Indeed, but as Dave pointed out, that wouldn't explain why Chakotay didn't pull her aside and advocate for Tuvix' life.

[@Noemo2000]

I think it’s pretty clear. They WANTED Tuvok and Neelix more than Tuvix, even though they liked Tuvix. They maybe didn’t even realize it … but they just needed some cover to express it. Having Janeway be the heavy, all they had to do was be … obedient. Then it’s not them doing it. They’re just being good soldiers. I find them reprehensible because of their cowardice in NOT admitting what decision they were siding with more than a perceived inaction to prevent a wrong. Right or wrong isn’t really the point I’m making though … just that there is a choice before them and they chose one, they just didn’t want to admit it. Or do the work of enacting that choice.

[@SaturdayNightStitch]

This was one of my favourite Voyager episodes. It was thought provoking.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

My wife and I were guests at Paramount in 96 and saw Tuvix being filmed. And Kes smoking. We visited both Voyager and DS 9 sets. The DS9 episode was a mirror unuverse story.

[@dasparado]

Must of been fun

[@aliciabell6688]

Did you see the neelix actor around?

[@brettcooper3893]

Ha. Crazy 'ol Jennifer Lein smoking.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

@@aliciabell6688 Good aftternoon. Yes, we saw him. It was mid afternoon and both actors were outside the set, Kes smoking. The guide told us a rough outline if the plot. They did not speak, although Avery Brooks said hello to my wife. I am not Bs ing here. Not many know we have been on the sets. Not many are interested. I only mentioned regarding the subject of this video. One thing I recall was the rotten fruit in the Kitchen where Neelix cooks.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

@@dasparado Hello, yes it was very interesting. I knew a chap that was an assistant of one of the actors. That was how we were able to visit.

[@michaelt2974]

I don’t think Picard would have done what janeway did. He would have gotten some advice from data and then let tuvix live.

[@Alexander_Kale]

Depends on the situation. In that episode where Troi takes the leadership evaluation, they outright state that at some point, officers may be expected to order crewmen to their death. Not order them to take a risk, but to take an action that will one hundred percent result in their demise. They are allowed to do that, they are EXPECTED to do that. So yeah. Given the right circumstances, Picard would have done the same. One can only hope that the writer of that hypothetical episode would have more skill in pulling it off..

[@stephenschneekloth1535]

@@Alexander_Kale Big difference between having to order someone to their death to save the ship and ordering someone to be sacrificed to resurrect two already dead crewmembers. Picard would have never gone along with murdering Tuvix to bring back Neelix and Tuvok and if this was a Next Gen episode Tuvix would have made the choice himself or had some unavoidable circumstance force him to do so at the end.

[@Alexander_Kale]

@@stephenschneekloth1535 Janeway makes a somewhat credible argument to this regard. She needs Tuvok and Neelix both, and their absence endangers the ship more than Tuvix' presence helps it. She has a way to get them back, and this will unfortunately kill Tuvix. Iffy decision? Probably. But presumably inside what a captain is allowed to do and at least somewhat justified. I don't actually have a problem with the Call Janeway ultimately makes, my problem lies with how the writer chose to portray it happening. The only problem - though it is a bog one - now that I think about it, is that Tuvix as an individual is not actually a member of Starfleet, so Janeway might not have had jurisdiction over him. ^.^

[@Tokmurok]

​@@Alexander_Kale Every decision made by janeway is always so psychotically pragmatic she ignores morality for a perceived tactical advantage no matter the cost.

[@NativeNewMexican]

The appropriate solution was to restore Tuvak and Neelix then kill Neelix because his character was the most annoying in Star Trek since Wesley Crusher.

[@alsmith9853]

💯🤣🤣

[@Timrath]

Come on, Neelix is way worse than Wesley. As I see it, the most annoying characters in Trek are: 1. Neelix 2. Michael Burnham 3. Sylvia Tilly 4. Jake Sisko 5. Keiko O'Brien

[@VanaeCavae]

My take on this would be more practical. Tuvok is a trained star fleet officers with decades of experience and Neelix was a native of the delta quadrant and he knew planets and the native races located there. Both would be useful to Janeway in her mission in returning back home. Could Tuvix do the same for her ? Janeway was thinking about her crew returning home. She weighted her options and decided to sacrifice Tuvix so that Tuvok and Neelix can return so that her chances of returning home becomes higher. The captain of the Equinox did something similar but on a larger scale. Both were driven by practical concerns over humanitarian concerns.

[@09Ateam]

Janeway's action over the entire show prove that she was the most immoral of the Star Trek Captains, at least until NuTrek.

[@OmegaReaver]

Insaneway isn't just a catchy nickname...

[@GrandmasterFerg]

She was in the worst situation

[@OrbitalHUB]

You've got problems when women are in leadership positions...nine out of ten times.

[@bigben8502]

(guy who didn't watch Sisko chimpout against Eddington)

[@pt29999]

@@bigben8502 Why do people here keep bringing that up? This is a vid about Janeway, why does what Sisko did have anything to do with what Janeway did?

[@w9ill856]

I usually describe Janeway as running a pirate ship and Tuvix is yet another example.

[@MaxIzrin]

I would offer a third view on this: This all depends on how "the self" is defined, and continuation of said "self". Both points of view presented assume that the self is lost for Tuvok and Neelix, and that Tuvix is new and unique, but what if it isn't so? What if Tuvix is a condition suffered by Tuvok and Neelix, that still exist, just in a different form? From this point of view, Tuvix's objections are akin to the objections of a madman refusing to take his pills. This completely legitimizes the separation, and there is no moral dilemma. Of course the question at the heart of this is: what are the boundaries of the self?

[@Bjorick]

i'm just amazed by the vid saying that janeway's correct choice was to let tuvix be? In trek, isn't spock considered one of the voices that define the series, the same man that commonly says - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one ignoring the crew completely, just looking at tuvok, neelix, and tuvix, the logical thing to do is to split them, as there is NO reason not to - there is no risk for them to stay together or split them, and the ONLY perspective we get is that of what could be considered the 'assailant' in this case - or as you mentioned, the sickness a mental sickness can make you more outgoing, more talkative, more friendly, more welcoming to people, and while we didn't see any negatives to the bond, tuvok is shown repeatedly to flirt with his emotions in the series, and always to the long term detrement to himself and those around him again, no matter how you look at it, even if you call it murder, it was the right choice - tuvok and neelix didn't have a say in the matter except through a lenses that had it's own agenda

[@conan2096]

if they didnt just hit the reset button each ep, they could have had serious psychological ramifications of this come up. this could be what made tuvok sick, and neelix could have become more rational and less annoying. they could have to deal with having 2 sets of conflicting memories.

[@edwardperkins1225]

Good point. The episode didn't properly hint at the idea that they could be the same 2 selves crammed in one different form. It comes off much more like Tuvicks is a unique life. When Spock was in McCoy's head in Star Trek 3 it was protrayed clearly as 2 selves in one body, though there's still the new Vulcan body which should be a self before having Spock transfered. Spock should be like Tuvicks after that though that Vulcan would be closer to a blank slate.

[@jhoughjr1]

Brilliant viewpoint.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@conan2096 that wold have been great.

[@STNeish]

My problem with this episode isn't that Janeway "murdered" Tuvix. Indeed, I do see her point. What bothered me is that NO ONE rose to his defense.

[@Seastallion]

I never felt that the decision was an emotionally easy choice for Janeway. I felt like she WAS conflicted about it, but also resolute that both her crew members (one a very old friend) deserved to live their own lives, and secondly that Voyager's odds of success was considerably higher with the two lost crew as opposed to the one individual. Crew compliment is a very real thing, and frankly more can be accomplished with two individual bodies than just one, no matter how talented. Janeway had not only the responsibility to protect her crew, but also to see to the fulfillment of their mission. Honestly, Tuvok and Neelix contributed more to the likelihood of success than Tuvix could do alone. I think given the balance of Janeway's responsibilities, she made the logical choice. Notice, I didn't say "moral". I'm not sure there was a truly moral choice in this scenario. It was just unfortunate all the way around. It might be easy to condemn the Voyager crew for moral cowardice, but frankly this scenario is so far out of human experience, human morality has a difficult time even digesting this, much less coming to a clear-cut judgment. The story could have concluded as suggested in the video, that would have been nice. Unfortunately, that's not what they did.

[@marley7868]

that is a good point shame the show tries to sweep it under the rug you think anyone would wanna kill her over this maybe tuvok maybe neelix feel like those two might have a opinion on murder

[@kev3d]

There is a moral choice, a CLEAR moral choice: Leave Tuxiv alone. We don't grab people off the street to harvest their organs simply because the "needs of the many..." even for "old friends" in need of, say, a heart or liver. Sad as it may be, Tuvok and Neelix knew the risks of service. As for "logic", that went right out the window when the crew diverted valuable (and scarce) resources to operate the Holodeck, or for Tom to build his Delta Flyer (and enter a race, if I recall). In a life or death situation these are seriously illogical wastes of time and energy. Even in this one particular episode, it wasn't logical to have Neelix, who isn't a scientist, join the away team on an unknown planet.

[@Seastallion]

@@kev3d Clearly you ignored the 2nd paragraph in my comment. I never said it was the "moral" choice, just the logical one. Also, show narrative inconsistencies doesn't change the fact they were stranded at least 70 years from home, with crew numbers being a real concern for operational capability. The "magic" of replicator technology gives them near unlimited resources (so long as they have sufficient energy), but it never fixed their distance or crewing problems.

[@kev3d]

@@Seastallion I did read your second paragraph, in which you wrote: " I'm not sure there was a truly moral choice in this scenario." Clearly, there *IS* a moral choice. And it isn't difficult to understand if one has the slightest understanding of rights.

[@alanmark12345]

@@kev3d I think an opportunity was missed because I agree with you that it is clearly immoral to kill Tuvix. But what the episode lacked was selling that immoral action as necessary or desirable. A personal reason getting in the way of that clear moral principle, the idea that Janeway or others need Tuvok or Neelix in their lives would have made it more poignant or at least understandable. That's really what's missing in my opinion, a clearer justification of why this needs to be done as opposed to what unfortunately comes across as we just need to reset the next episode.

[@Zeoran]

The whole premise was stupid. They've already proven in STNG that transporters can create more than one version of a person, since it's just digital information transformed into energy and back. Why couldn't they keep Tuvix and still beam back Tuvok & Neelix from their reserved data patterns that the show has repeatedly told us that is being kept in the ships computer.

[@SaviorMachine84]

At the end the day bringing back neelix and tuvok means executing someone. I also found it pretty jarring that everyone except the doctor were relatively ok with this.

[@joncarter3761]

Never forget Jayneway got her crew home early and changed the entire future, most likely killing hundreds if not more by altering the timeline recklessly. I guess my point is this psychotic flaw in Jayneway's personality gets worse as the series continues, by the point of the Equinox she was quite happy to turn off the protective shields and let the aliens attack one of the Equinox crew so she can get some answers. This was probably one of the first red flags that Jayneway has a sinister/dark side and it got worse the longer they were trapped in the Delta quadrant.

[@jamesbizs]

It’s still an argument of whether timeline changing actually means killing. Let alone, whether every timeline still exists. They just created a new one.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

I reckon the consequence of trying to write a female character that exudes a strong feminist message and is meant to be an example and which yet becomes very unlikable and flawed? Just take Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Meant to be an icon of stronge female empowerment to other women and yet she is one of the most f***ed up characters in fiction. Her love life alone makes her the postergirl of what NOT to do as a woman. Still, at least she had a character and flaws, unlike the Mary Sues we get today.

[@anno5936]

It all started early in the show, when she was asking for her "animal counselor"... Even a teenager, I understood that this series was going to be messed up

[@TheDrewThornton]

Janeway was a homicidal genocidal maniac

[@OmegaReaver]

This is why she was made an Admiral over Picard.

[@DeltaAssaultGaming]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

[@anthonyju6392]

Archer: "How long have you been a doctor?" Phlox: "Nearly 40 years. Why?" Archer: "In all that time did you do anything unethical?" Phlox: "Twice." Archer: "I am about to step over a line. A line that I thought I would never cross." Phlox: "May I ask what you are planning to do?" Archer: "There could be more casualties." Phlox: "I'll be ready."

[@OldMovieRob]

This was an excellent analysis, and one of my favorite Voyager episodes. I think what made the ultimate decision so much more complex was that Tuvix was a genuinely likable character (I thought) through the episode and left you pondering a lot of "what if's..." after the episode was over.

[@krixpop]

Did you read the other comments? With the already known and shown ST technology, they could easily keep all three of them Tuvok or Neelix and Tuvix. The "hard moral choice" is solely the result of the incompetence of those that wrote the episode.

[@boobah5643]

@@krixpop Except that they can't, because that's not how transporters work or they'd regularly keep backups of people. Or, in a darker view, you'd see Cardassians and Romulans using them as an interrogation tool.

[@krixpop]

@@boobah5643 William Thomas "Tom" Riker. Memory Alpha. Clone / Duplicate of W. Riker due to transporter *Accident* . Tom Riker was accepted in the Federation with full rights as a human being and as a citizen ! Thus in this *Accident* , Tuvik could have benefited from THAT experience which was well documented in Voyager's memory banks. Now that could have been indeed a truly interesting development and not the idiotic Cpt. Janeway out of the blue "hard core choice" because Writers' incompetence.

[@noelcalvert768]

@@krixpop All of this!

[@odin1185]

This episode was harsh for sure he was such a likable guy and begged not to die.

[@PoolKid75]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

[@RossTheNinja]

Once again proving that Janeway is less moral than the Borg

[@Unknown.NotRegistered]

Yes, and why not do transporter cloning? Remember Riker's twin? There was a third option that would have been far more entertaining. Get all 3, Tuvok, Neelix and Tuvix ongoing. That would have been a riot to watch.

[@projektkobra2247]

I often thought they should have kept that one "robot" character that Belana had saved and restored...would have filled in the 'Data" role better than that distractingly hawt 7of9. Also would have negated the awkwardness of Brent Spiner getting old and fat.

[@Nodux359]

One of the great ideas surely every second watcher had, but the writers never realised because Voyager.

[@prolamer7]

Maybe they feared it would stuck and like 20 Neelixes would stepped out :-DDD ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP, IREPEAT ABANDON SHIP NOW! THIS IS NOT A DRILL

[@AndyG73]

You beat me to the punch on that alternative ending. Whilst Dave's proposed one is the more satisfying from an ongoing plot standpoint, the other would be perfectly acceptable, especially as the portrayal of Tuvix by actor Tom Wright was excellent.

[@carlrood4457]

But, you'd just have 2 Tuvix's who didn't want to be separated. Just like both Rikers were equal individuals, both Tuvixes would want to live.

[@SethBrundleify]

He didn't even have a fair trial.

[@TaliaIGhul]

Aside the canonical argument about the Kurtzman Star Trek shows, this is probably one of the most heated debates among Star Trek fans.

[@babcombob]

Thanks!

[@katsuro76e]

Tuvix just needed to wait 30 minutes and they would’ve defused and tried again! Lol

[@SumDumGy]

The suggestion you made for an alternate take was essentially done in the Sim episode of Enterprise.

[@politicalfisticuffs9531]

Tuvix didn't die. He still lives in Tuvok and Neelix. Just like Tuvok and Neelix didn't really die.

[@andrewminter3450]

yes it shows that the Voyager crew is messed up they go from laughing and helping him to murdering him in five minutes and isn't the federation supposed to protect innocent people and the worse part is that at the end he realized that no one was there for him they just wanted their friends back

[@prolamer7]

I always hated so much that Janeway always acted like she is moral beacon of whole humanity... then next hour he orders execution, creation of mass dest weapons, errase timelines.... O_O worst was Equinox eps where that crew did some ugly killing in order to survive only to being lectured by JANEWAY on how super moral SHE is and how they disgust her. If I were crewman of Equinox I would sprung and started to choke that mad b.... .

[@GodwynDi]

Janeway just proving why she is fit to be captain, and many others aren't. She didn't just choose two lives versus one. She chose two of her crew versus a new stranger that has appeared. Whether it was morally right is a great discussion, but I can respect her making that hard choice.

[@JoeSReptiles]

Tuvix would have been a cool new addition to the crew, like when they added Seven. They could have easily re-polarized or inverted the transporter to clone Tuvix.

[@joylynch5204]

Right I agree

[@tayloroc1]

This episode went upside down QUICK! I thought that they would clone him and then separate them. I never thought it would go the way it did. This is the most F'ed up episode that I have seen so far. (I'm watching them in order.)

[@eanobin9394]

I think that this episode was written to do what it has done for the last 20 years. Namely, stoke debate, similar to how 'Measure of a Man' is shown in philosophy 101 classes. From this perspective, the writing is absolutely brilliant, as the episode solution where there was cellular degradation in Tuvix or some other thing, would have turned this into a somewhat forgettable story with a convenient solution. Great Trek writing isn't just about telling a story, but it is also about contributing to philosophical discourse beyond the show. I can think of no greater example.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

Aye. Although I wonder if it was intended or not. It was after all Star Trek Voyager. That was when the rot began to creep into the franchise. i wouldn't be surprised if the writers actually had a particle of the week episode in mind and by accident painted the Voyager crew in this controversial negative light.

[@Grabthar191]

Didn't they do something similar in TOS when Kirk was split into his evil decisive self, and his goody two shoes indecisive self? I think at the end of that they remerged them, but that they had to force the evil half to do it. Would that be the similar to this situation?

[@davfree9732]

Well, I know my views on Tuvix. But like has been said... The debate is King. While I have my views, they can be challenged and tested. Flaws revealed that require a rethink and thinking unbowed by lesser logic... But, is it lesser when the originating point is different from your own? Tuvix at the time spurred debate in the infancy of social media, but also in face to face discussion. People didn't have group's they could nestle into and feel 'safe'. We had to hold our own against individuals. Good debaters considered not only the points in a discussion, but why people held those points. Weather they were logic based, emotional, set by life experience that in itself had context as to what happened... In the end, Tuvix lived at the expense of two men. And Janeway couldn't get back home if she was going to sacrifice the many for the few... Or the one. And while in later episodes she goes against that ethos for others in her crew... I can't help but think Tuvix had a profound effect on Janeway that maybe... she made a mistake. And living without guilt or regret is just as important... But she had a choice. Lose Tuvix, or Tuvok and Neelix. She regretted losing Tuvix. But had she not done what she did... She'd have regretted not bringing back Tuvok and Neelix whose lives Tuvix could never replace no matter his good intentions or how much he tried. In the end, there was no right answer. Only a wrong one that served the ship and crew better in the long run. Neelix would eventually leave, Tuvok would stay.

[@eezonly1sand0s54]

Dave should pin your comment. As he searches for a more palatable solution, he neglects the origin of the visceral response that he has over this episode. THAT is the point. I suspect that the unstated esoteric meaning behind Tuvix is one similar to the abortion issue. In this case, all three are innocent parties so who is to be saved, the fusion of the two or the voiceless victims of a tragic mishap? Dave needs to realize that the point is, regardless of the outcome, NO one truly wins.

[@Grabthar191]

@@davfree9732 I can't remember. Did Tuvok and Neelix both remember being Tuvix? Did they retain the memories of being together? If so, is Tuvix really gone?

[@allank534]

The 2 things you need to realise about this episode are, nobody dies and there is no right answer. If you can understand that then you'll understand the episode, if not, then you probably need to use your brain a little more. Look at it this way, if the 2 of them had been abducted and merged by an alien race, would you have just accepted it or done everything you could to get them back? It's the whole point of the episode, to make you go round in circles as there is no one solution. A superb episode.

[@allank534]

And Lower Decks confirmed this. They did exactly what Janeway did and brought everyone back!

[@JohnnyOrc]

The reason why the doctor is a hologram, is because had he been flesh and blood, his massive balls from standing up to Janeway would have screwed with the artificial gravity of the ship. Tuvix is absolutely a sentient being in his own right, and being murdered to bring back Tuvok and Neelix, on the basis of experiments that have only been done on *plant life* isn't right. And your potential solution is much more palatable. The real crime is the fact that this murder was never brought up again, but that's par for the course in Voyager, and one of the reasons it's one of my least favourite classic Trek shows.

[@insensitive919]

I think he was my favorite character on Voyager. As annoying as he was as the Frasier of the Delta Quadrant, most of the other main characters annoyed me a lot more. At least he was consistent.

[@bigben8502]

What is wrong with you freaks?

[@HarosOfStyx]

no she didn't because Tuvix was a selfish abomination. She had to correct the accident, and bring back the people who were actually born.

[@sid2112]

Yep, alien version of a souless ginger. (Ginger's, I'm kidding, I think you're adorable)

[@Playlist849236]

Blah blah blah. Tuvec stole Nelix and Tuvoc's bodies.

[@ThePhrog714]

he didn’t steal anything, he couldn’t help his birth.

[@stevenscott2136]

It's a valuable part of the "Breaking Janeway" arc that runs through the whole series. She might have been an excellent chief engineer for a full career, but ambition led her to pursue command even though she isn't suited for it. She might have even been an adequate commander, but she ended up in one of those freak situations that requires a Picard or Kirk. As a result, the stress caused her to slowly go "Heisenberg", fluctuating back and forth between the idealistic techie she always thought she was, and the sociopath that had always been hidden away by the lack of need for it in normal Fed society. To a lesser extent, the whole crew is cracking, as seen in their failure to even voice any objections to her intermittent reigns of terror. Maybe this incident is what made Chakotay realize he was going to have to be Janeway's moral compass, as hers was starting to spin aimlessly. The show might have been better if they really picked up on this -- sort of a psychological version of "Year of Hell" stretched out over the whole voyage.

[@benjamin6194]

That would have been a good show. But I don't think the writers committed to it enough to make it clear that what's they were going for. I got the impression the writers simply think Janeway is in the right.

[@MRF1983]

The Janeway is ALWAYS the "right" way, apparently.

[@zkeletonz001]

This was either a poorly thought out episode, or an extremely clever way of someone on the inside being very subversive and showing how they really felt about Janeway as a character. Janeway is the only one of the captains that would have chosen this solution--I'm not including any of the new captains in that of course.

[@Ankhtowe]

@@zkeletonz001 Yeah, every single NuTrek captain would have killed him in a heartbeat. They probably would just stun him while making a snarky joke about how annoying his whining was and then their whole bridge would clap.

[@jhoughjr1]

It makes sense for Chakotay to do that as he was a federation rebel, the kind of person who will only sit by and watch so much shit before making a stand.

[@Dharzjinion]

If Tuvix had become unstable and sacrificed himself for the other guys... we wouldn't be talking about this episode today. It played out exactly like it needed to and yes, that also means the Crew has loaded guilt on their shoulders.

[@johntowers1213]

agreed 100%

[@martynvaughan7196]

Agreed. The fusion failing naturally would have been a much better resolution. I suspect they wanted to show how tough Janeway was.

[@johntowers1213]

it would have been a much safer ending but I'd not say better.. For all the uncomfortable questions it raises by how it did actually end, not gifting the characters the usual get out of jail free card that is so often played with these sort of moral dilemma's where circumstance steps in to remove the difficult choice, was the better choice by far... not all resolutions have to be happy ones...

[@joelellis7035]

I'm of the opinion that the writing just wasn't quite there for the 2nd season. The idea of having some kind of time limit to Tuvix's existence didn't cross their mind. Also, possibly, the writers wanted the poignant ending that seemed little questionable. I remember at this time in the overall star trek franchise, the producers were looking to move away from the perfect endings that had been seen so often in TNG.

[@greggstrasser5791]

Showing how tough Janeway was is a side effect, not the main point.

[@boobah5643]

@@johntowers1213 The thing that grates is that the wholly artificial person is the only one that seems to have _any_ question that they're doing the correct thing. I don't have a problem with the characters having to make a hard choice... but _everybody_ was resigned to Tuvix's destruction. Not helped in the least by _Voyager's_ lack of continuity.

[@johntowers1213]

@@boobah5643 yeah.. a schism within the crew would have really raised it to another level... the fact the only member of the crew to object was the Doctor a character which at that point probably would not be considered a sentient being by most of Star Fleet was rather telling.. Now imagine if Kes has objected as well as the doctor.. that would have been really interesting to unpick where even though it meant the permanent loss of Neelix she instead stood by Tuvix's right to life...and how that would have impacted Neelix when they forced the procedure anyway.

[@dannya8614]

This dilemma and conundrum combined for Janeway was, and still is the edge of one's mortal soul.

[@JohnCastleSmokeless]

I think your solution -- the cellular degradation leads Tuvix to voluntarily sacrifice himself to restore his "parents" -- is an absolutely fitting way in which the episode should have been resolved.

[@SumDumGy]

The needs of the many... Declaring Tuvok and Neelix lost in the line of dirt would actually require them to be “lost.” They were not.

[@johntowers1213]

of course they were lost.. they were dead that like saying a recipient of a heart transplant should be killed if it meant the donor of the heart could be returned from the dead...

[@SumDumGy]

@@johntowers1213 If they were dead, the procedure to restore them would not have been an option on the first place. If you have an issue with this, blame the writers for making that possible. This is why Enterprise tackled this story better.

[@MonCappy]

I am of the opinion that this episode is not an example of the Trolley Problem at all. Tuvok and Neelix died in the transporter accident that created Tuvix. They're dead and Tuvix is essentially their offspring of sorts. Janeway's decision to murder Tuvix in order to resurrect her deceased crew members (who admittedly died tragically) was entirely unjustified and definitely murder. On another note. I think your solution of changing the end to give Janeway an out to avoid making the decision to murder Tuvix would've made for a weaker episode. The thing that makes Tuvix such a memorable episode and such a gut punch is the fact that Janeway has to make that choice. That she has to choose between Tuvix living his best life or murdering him in order to resurrect Neelix and Tuvok. Her being forced to make that choice, no matter how horrible it is makes for more compelling television than circumstances giving her an out that allows her not to make a decision.

[@PorkFork]

I remember seeing something saying that Kate Mulgrew fully expected her character to be on trial at the end of the show, episodes like this are a great explanation of why that'd be.

[@oddish4352]

In my opinion, if Tuvix had been created in a transporter accident within the Federation proper, and he had appealed for his right to live before a proper Federation court or Starfleet tribunal, his right to live would have been affirmed. And after that, he would have enjoyed the protection of Federation law. However, because his rights as a sentient being in his own right had not been legally established when Janeway separated him, I don't think she could be found guilty of murder. A useful parallel would be if Picard had not fought Maddox in "Measure of a Man", and Data had been destroyed by his experiments, Maddox could not have been charged with a crime.

[@noelcalvert768]

@@oddish4352 The doctor refused the separation. That tells you without a doubt what the Federation has to say about the situation. Watch 'Twovix' Lower Decks & its made quite clear though people misunderstand the ending was to avoid this moral dilemma later.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

I have not read that, but thought of writing a script about the trial. It could still be done. The crew covered it up, but a tape surfaced.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Plus the gross misconduct of the finale. And forcing Torres to receive treatment from a Cardassian Hologram.

[@allthingsnerd.4484]

@@Briellen_Mellottaccording to the season premiere of Lower Decks season 4; it’s not a secret how Janeway handled the Tuvix situation.

[@michaeldevlin5101]

I agree. This episode never sat right with me.

[@JoTheVeteran]

"The needs of the many, out weight the needs of the few, or the one, Harry" - Gandalf

[@MrWiggsy4]

That's from empire strikes back right?

[@JoTheVeteran]

@@MrWiggsy4 no it's from blade runner 2077

[@MidnightAspec]

This was the most disturbing episode of ST:Voyager ever. I didnt envy Janeway's predicament.

[@jceggbert5]

It's been a while since watching this episode, but if I remember correctly, she was like "this is not the optimal solution but I really need my chief security officer [since we're stuck here half a century from a restaff]". It felt more like an unfortunate decision made from crisis (being stranded) made for the betterment/survival of the crew, not something that she would've done if she could've warped back home in 2 weeks to get a new security officer and then reassign/whatever Tuvix. Just because he had Tuvok's memories doesn't mean he could entirely perform as Tuvok, and janeway *needed* Tuvok. Again, if memory serves, she arranged it so that all of the blame for his death fell on her, not the doctor, not chakotay, etc. It was her decision of "there's a way to have tuvok back, I need tuvok" and hers alone. A captain looking out for her entire crew at the unfortunate demise of a crewmember (though restoration of two lost ones). An interesting variation of this episode would be that the split failed and they lost all three. No tuvok, no neelix, no tuvix. Then she has to live with herself for sorta committing 3 murders. A bit dark for voyager but could work in one of the newer, darker treks.

[@jceggbert5]

or, another interesting plot could be that the split works but they're both vegetables and they have to find some wacky treknobabble solution to rebuilding tuvix and making him permanent

[@carlotta4th]

I agree. People saying Tuvix was "just as good" are ignoring the fact that he can't be in two places doing two things at once, while two individuals can. Voyager is incredibly far from everything with a limited crew and no options to pick up more people--willfully losing two great crew members in exchange for one is a huge downgrade to their chances of survival. Practically she didn't have much of a choice, she can't afford to lose crew members to accidents.

[@jceggbert5]

@@carlotta4th and who knows how long tuvix would remain stable (biologically and psychologically)

[@TheKain202]

@@carlotta4th If we're going that route, it's not like Nelix was particularly useful. I mean he could make you some good food but that's it as far as utility goes. Anyone can learn how to cook. Meanwhile Tuvix was essentially an upgraded Tuvok 2.0, who was even better at his job than the original, because he listened to his hunches AND could whip you a mean gourmet in a pinch.

[@allthingsnerd.4484]

@@TheKain202Neelix wasn’t just the cook. He was their ambassador to other Delta Quadrant species as well as the nearest thing they had to an expert/guide to the Delta Quadrant. Tuvok was an outstanding tactical and security officer. Tuvix was neither.

[@ArtturiSalmela]

I thought it was very jarring when they told him that the two men could be restored, and he responds with "I don't want to die," and they go on killing him anyway. The choice to restore the two should have been his.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

This has come up again thanks to Lower Decks. :D

[@kuuphone3193]

I think you can see "Tuvix" as more of a mental illness than a sentient being. Imagine someone is suicidal. Do you believe they deserve the pure right to kill themselves? Or do you understand that they are not well, and wouldn't normally choose such a thing, and therefor you should work to help them. You can say this about many type of mental health issues, episodes people have, etc. Tuvoc and Neelix were clearly okay with this in the end, and it would be, in my mind, them, who could counter the idea that it was or wasn't okay to do in the first place. Tuvix, in my mind, was not a "new being" but in fact, two beings trapped in a state they couldn't properly escape from without help, but like many who are ill. The option to help or not is less of a question of allowing Tuvix to live, and more of a question of when you should take someone at their word. When they're in the middle of a health crisis, or before/after? For me it's not during. Someone going through something, not in their right state of mind, isn't the version of them you listen to. They want to die, they want to hurt themselves or others, they hate everything and want to ruin their lives, or want to throw away their possessions or money or relationships, who knows, but that's not "them", correct? Same thing here. He wants to start anew. He wants a new life. He wants to be this new person, but he's not, in fact a new person, he's two other people who, once cured of their illness, wouldn't agree with that version of themselves. Also, as a side note, I feel like people really misunderstand and misjudge Janeway, and completely forget what she's going through, and where her and her crew are. This is not a normal ship captain going about normal routine activities near Earth. Her actions always spoke to me as someone having to be in charge, FULLY, of EVERYTHING, and having to deal with that on a day to day basis with absolutely no reprieve. I get a bit dejected listening to people attack Janeway's character over these things.

[@ricknineg]

Tuvix was created from another two separate beings. They had their own independent life and freedom to act as individuals. They did not choose this merging into a new life/new being. They were essentially “trapped.” In order to save the two, the one had to be undone. The greater good for the greatest number of people. It’s similar to a parasite growing inside you. Yes, it is a new sentient creature but the host will die if it is allowed to live. If the host dies, so does the parasite. Tuvok and Nelix needed to be saved. While you mentioned, in the second school of philosophical though that Tuvok and Nelix were “deceased”, they were not. They were merely trapped as they were brought back. PS- I was and am not a fan of Janeway

[@CheeseDanish85]

I don't think it's that simple. You can argue that precisely because it was a random event, it is not Tuvix's (or anyone's) fault that he was created either. Yet he NOW exists whereas the other two men no longer do. Being able to bring back both men does not change the fact that Tuvix now exists, and no longer will once you do so. Events exist in a linear relationship - just because you can undo something, doesn't mean you should, or that the thing undone never existed.

[@sandman_says_runrunner4701]

"Greater good", is a term used by people like Stalin, Lenin, Mao,... though I can understand why you would use it since the West is being overrun by Neo Marxists. The SECOND we trample on individual rights in the name of group rights is the second we lose freedom. There is no justification for taking an individual's rights... none. Was Tuvix cowardly... maybe, but that still did not give Janeway or the crew the right to murder him.

[@benjamin6194]

They "need" to be saved? It seems to me I could apply your same logic to other situations, where the outcome would clearly be wrong. Let's say that 2 people are dying from heart and lung failure. They have their own independent lives and the freedom to act as individuals. They "need" to be saved. I could save them by killing you and taking your organs for transplant.The greater good for the greater number of people. Seems like by your line of reasoning, that would be perfectly ok. I don't see how you can logically oppose that line of reasoning but still support your original statement.

[@johntowers1213]

The greater good argument is one to idealize the act of self sacrifice for others not the sacrifice of the innocent to the benefit of a greater pool of innocents... the second is the argument of tyrants and monsters that pick and choose who gets to live and die based on some arbitrary sliding scale of Worth.

[@johntowers1213]

@Dominik Holewinski Actually no.. the Church does not consider such an act suicide instead Christian ethics, permits sacrificing one's life to save even a single person based on the model of Christ's self-sacrificial love.

[@alanmark12345]

Its actually a great dilemma that's hampered by the need to reset the series for the next episode. I don't even mind if Janeway pulled the trigger, what was missing from the episode was a degree of reflection, an admission maybe that this was the wrong choice, or that it was influenced by personal desires. It is a wholly un-starfleet and immoral choice. Just as Sisko murdered a senator to bring the Romulans into the war but he is able to justify it to himself and the audience. Whats lacking in this episode is that end of episode sell, how the character decides they are able to live with it.

[@williamwelch7]

Thanks Dave. Tom Wright gave an excellent performance as Tuvix! It was uncanny how he seemed like both. Your solution of Tuvix dying and sacrificing himself is great. It would have left the crew in mourning, and shown them all in a better light. Too bad they didn't think of that at the time, and too bad you're not involved in any new Star Trek series. As an original fan I think your take on ST is spot on. ST would be much better if they listened to you!

[@cmedtheuniverseofcmed8775]

I absolutely agree. Tom Wright did an amazing job being two characters in one. :)

[@williamwelch7]

@@cmedtheuniverseofcmed8775 I think the only performance that tops it, is Tony Todd's performance as the elderly Jake Sisko in the DS9 episode, The Visitor. Possibly the finest ST performance of all...

[@Elfrunner]

Ever see Tales from the Hood? Tom Wright got revenge on some corrupt cops. Cool sequence in an otherwise awkward anthology movie.

[@surlyunicorn9461]

@@williamwelch7 Tony Todd was fantastic in anything he appeared in.

[@johntowers1213]

completely disagree about the alternative ending idea, having a last minute rug pull like that would render the entire episode toothless...sometimes there are only terrible choices having circumstance step in at the 11th hour and remove the need to make those tough choices as a way to keep the characters hands clean would miss the point entirely... great episode... because, not in spite of the way it ended..

[@Fwibos]

Janeway? Aggressie, Callous? Unempathetic and irrational? Color me surprised. it's a wonder she made captain at all. They could have made her a Lt Com. and had her become de facto Captain and have to learn and grow, but no, she's an inconsistant mess.

[@douggraham5082]

Yes. Yes she did. She also saved Tuvok and Neelix in the process, but at great price. This is one of the best VOY episodes ever, as it really created a conundrum for Janeway. Truly one of the greats.

[@jamesbizs]

Did she save them? They were gone. Dead. Not really saving. She recreated them

[@TentaclePentacle]

insaneway saved no one, insaneway resurrected tuvok and neellix by taking the life force of an innocent.

[@httohot]

They were a part of tuvix they were not dead When you use a teleporter you dont kill and then recreate people idiot….. Your logic would make every teleporter use murder. You just blindly hate janeway. Be more objective

[@BryceByerley]

It would have been greater if there were consequences down the line for her decision...but like Dave says, it gets forgotten at the end of the episode.

[@takerdust]

@@TentaclePentacle the "innocent life" was split into the original 2. Nothing was lost.

[@solidoffortitude]

No matter how much I try to how much I try to sympathize with your logic, I've always been on Janeway's side.

[@HM-rz8nv]

Same, heh. This guy certainly takes a side, but i just can't agree. I find people who are against Janeway here are being unnecessarily self-righteous and judgemental. People who disagree with Janeway here should take a good long moment and imagine if two of their close friends or family members got merged like Tuvix, and ask themselves what _they_ would do if they had the opportunity to restore their two original family members who are being 'trapped' just to maintain a different 'merged' person. suddenly it wouldn't be so simple to these people, i think.

[@LordB-dg8ks]

But it fits Janeways character so well! Remember when she basically murdered an entire timeline because her pet Borg died? Also Enterprise did it better with the clone organ donor for Trip in every way, especially the emotions involved. Sim had a whole life, Tuxix was just kind of there.

[@prolamer7]

I always hated so much that Janeway always acted like she is moral beacon of whole humanity... then next hour he orders execution, creation of mass dest weapons, errase timelines.... O_O worst was Equinox eps where that crew did some ugly killing in order to survive only to being lectured by JANEWAY on how super moral SHE is and how they disgust her. If I were crewman of Equinox I would sprung and started to choke that mad b.... .

[@patterofheads256]

Not only did she erase an entire timeline because she missed Seven, she didn't even have the forethought to go back 2-3 weeks further to before Joe Kerry got murdered. Poor guy had a wife and children waiting at home.

[@infinitelybanta]

That Enterprise episode is fantastic. I rewatched recently and when clone Trip tells Phlox he was a great father right before dying, I choked up something fierce. I even commented at the time how most media is a complete flatline for me nowadays yet a random episode of Enterprise can make me tear up.

[@endtheliesnow5906]

Janeway was always a cold fish.

[@clintonwilcox4690]

And that was arguably a more poignant moral dilemma. It wasn't just "should I kill this man to get my friends back?" but "can I justify committing an act of murder to increase the chances of saving the lives of millions of people on my planet?" Janeway justified it by saying she needed her tactical officer to get her crew back home, but Tuvix had the memories of both Tuvok and Neelix, and could have resumed tactical duties in Tuvok's place.

[@Dimension137]

captain Janeway did the right thing she made the right decision and no I don't think it is murder he wasn't supposed to exist in the first place

[@IPA300]

This episode is terrible because they had a perfect opportunity to write Neelix out of the show, but squandered it :( In all seriousness though: what frustrates me about this episode is that Tuvix is too perfect. He is largely portrayed as being just an upgraded (if slightly more annoying) version of Tuvok. What if the “positive” aspects of each character was negated by another trait of the other person? For example, the actual inciting incident could’ve been something like Tuvix losing his shit over some petty argument that got way out of control because Tuvok’s Vulcan strength and powerful emotions mixed negatively with Neelix’s emotional immaturity and lack of focus and control, thus resulting in a fight.

[@alexanderyakubik2289]

While I do believe that Tuvix as a sentient being does have an inherent right to decide what he does with his life.... It wasn't just his life. Honestly it wasn't even just Tuvok and Neelix lives either, both men had families, friends, loved ones, should we just push aside them. I'm new to the debate regarding this character, and I understand why people say Janeway is cold about it. But it's easy to disparage someone for a choice (even a hypothetical one) that you will never have to make, or call others cowards in a situation you will never be in and with way more of a personal stake in the situation. It was either kill a new life or let 2 other sentient lives, both of whom trusted Janeway and the crew as friends, to simply avoid any guilt. There was no right answer, and I think it's the luxury of an outside perspective to criticize the action taken, in this and any situation.

[@PCat2385]

I had no problem with this episode. It did what many other well written Trek episodes did pre New Trek. Made me think and had many interesting thought provoking conversations with friends. Is it in my top 20 Trek episodes? No but still made me think and that’s what Trek used to do

[@cawheeler27]

It just made me think they the entire crew should get a life sentence.

[@Alexander_Kale]

Meh. The conflict itself was very interesting, but the resolution of it was so poorly executed...

[@PCat2385]

@@Alexander_Kale agree how they showed resolution wasn’t as good as could have been. I just felt the dilemma led to interesting conversations

[@allank534]

Yes yes yes!

[@cyrussmith4744]

I think that yesit tried to do the classic "moral choice" from a Star Trek episode, but this time it failed to deliver, especially considering that it didn't have any repercussions

[@-haclong2366]

00:08 Every few weeks, I blame the fact that they cast a great actor. Had they cast a less good actor more people wouldn't care.

[@Vesnicie]

Every kid who's been told they were a mistake really feels this one.

[@jkrunch2166]

So this is an incredibly hard moral dilemma, one i don't think actually has a morally correct answer. With that in mind, cold, calculating logic is the only way to determine which path to take, and in this case, I am on the side of separation. Why? 1. Tuvok and Neelix are both not deceased, and were both involuntary participants in the creation of this one new being. It comes down to simple mathematics - does one, new lifeform have the right to exist at the cost of two, or vice versa? 2. Tuvok and Neelix both had unique and important tasks on Voyager, a stranded ship with an already dwindling crew. Each life matters tactically, and losing either of these crucial members makes the odds at success even more slim than they already are. 3. With Tuvix being a haphazard merging of two entirely different species, one of which was only recently discovered by Voyager, there is the distinct possibility of massive physiological problems arising that could result in Tuvix', and by proxy Tuvok's and Neelix's, demise. Voyager cannot take up new substantial risks like that, given the aforementioned dire circumstances. Therefore I agree with Janeways' decision. That said, very little of what I mentioned was conveyed in a cohesive way in the actual episode, and by the end Janeway came across as cold blooded, rather than as someone who had an impossible choice to make and felt a modicum of empathy for Tuvix. I appreciate the moral dilemma the episode poses, but not how it was presented to the audience.

[@rushthezeppelin]

Janeway did nothing wrong...

[@MiguelRivera-cs2tk]

In STG. The Capt (Picard) advocated and one to recognize data as a sentient being not a machine. In the original Star Trek Spock mind meld with a rock creature to learn that it was just defending it home and it’s rock babies. Tuvix WAS MURDERED

[@setokaiba6758]

I think "Yes, and No" Vulcan philosophy states "The needs of the many (Tuvok and Neelix) outweigh the needs of the few (Tuvix) by allowing Tuvix to continue existing she would have essentially killed two, in stead she opted to "kill" one.

[@TentaclePentacle]

even vulcans would not suck the life of one to prolong the life of 2.

[@jamesbizs]

No essentially. They were already dead. You can’t use the excuse of her letting two die. They were dead. Done. And let’s be honest. Tuvix was as good as both of them combined. His dead did not outweigh anything, to justify literal murder. No Vulcan would kill someone, to save others . They would maybe let someone die. Or let themselves die. But literal cold blooded murder ? No

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

exactly.

[@xxan84]

@@jamesbizs Depends on your point of view, where they dead? They where quite alive by the end of the episode. Dead seems quite final to me. They where "stuck" inside that mergerd being, not dead. Think of the borg, you could say they are "dead" and part of the hole, well until you SEPARATE them from the collective (similar to Tuvix). I would not quantify this as murder (its murder to you, but each of one has a different view of this). To me you had 3 people existing at the same time inside Tuvix, and those are Tuvix, Nelix and Tuvok. Janeway choose to save 2 by sacrificing one. Yes, I know this is not perfectly logical but this is quite the situation to be a easy fix. Also he was not as good as them combined, even Janeway raised the issue of needing Tuvok to bring the crew back home. Cold logic has advantages, just having his memories does not mean the new being is up with intelect and logic as Tuvok, Nelix everything obviously changes his being.

[@patterofheads256]

@@xxan84 No, they were literally dead. Tuvix went through psychiatric evaluations to determine that there was no thought or will from Tuvok or Neelix because they didn't exist anymore, only the new life who had both of their memories. Splitting him up didn't "restore" anyone, the transporters "re-created" them, which metaphysically is an entire new can of worms.

[@name-vi6fs]

She saved two lives at the cost of one.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Hitlerian....

[@pt29999]

Yes, and it was poor writing which seemed to plague her character over the course of the show. Also really makes it more annoying how they made her character so self-righteous, yet she does things like this.

[@katsuro76e]

Making her self righteous should’ve but her in the ass. But it never did.

[@deletebilderberg]

No coffee ☕️😁

[@Noemo2000]

@@deletebilderberg True!! If Tuvix would have learned to make better coffee and listen to Janeway cry … he may have had an “in” with her and NOT be executed. Janeway does sometimes act super selfishly in the series.

[@pt29999]

@@Noemo2000 Yep, she has a tendency to save only her friends....I mean she basically altered time, cause an unknown amount of people to never exist just to save Tuvok and Seven, yet nothing for any of the "regular" crew members that died over the years. As I said, terribly written character that was unbelievably selfish, yet she found no issue with lecturing Captain Ransom for basically doing what she did for years. Maybe she was mad at him because he was trying to save his whole crew and not just his closest friends.....

[@BryceByerley]

the thing is...the way she was written could be interesting IF she ever faced consequences for her selfish calls. However, the writers never thought her decisions for selfish or flawed.

[@n3rdm4n]

Yes she did. And also no. Yes: because the character itself is not shown on screen any longer. No: because the character exists both as Neelix and Tuvok. Imagine a binary choice: turning right and left at a road split. Instead of picking just once, Tuvix chose both.

[@ChefEarthenware]

This was one of the best episodes and the actor did a good job.

[@brentoutashape9141]

Your idea of having the Doctor discover that Tuvix would die, therefore, killing all three characters, unless the separation transpired would have made a great script for a Voyager movie. Because, you know...we never got one of those.... Admiral Janeway in Nemesis doesn't count.

[@mattt3254]

When Tuvix rejected self-sacrifice it was made clear that the crew rejected him and felt that he was a coward. He himself acknowledges this to Janeway who with her expression appears to agree. I got the impression this formed part of her decision, that this was not an individual the crew would trust and could effectively replace Tuvok, whom the ship needed.

[@theunknownreturns]

I would consider Tuvix an aberration, Tuvoc is a star fleet officer who deserves to live.

[@ThomasFishwick]

Say what you want it was a brave choice from the writers to pull this move. We’re still discussing this years later, and it is an issue that deserves the debate. There was no easy answer here. No graceful exit, no pat plot convenience. This was deliberately a brutal and awful moment that was meant to resonate with the audience and still does. Personally I feel this was one of the few brutally divisive moments in Voyager that rang true. I wanted more of them and was disappointed that things were watered down after this.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Decades later.

[@johnjay370]

Good video. I like your episode conclusion better than the original. Good job.

[@devilman2465]

Tuvok having a family I'm sure played a part in the decision. The ENTERPRISE episode about the symbiote is the rough one. I see Janeway as someone who was deeply pained but had to put on her big captain pants and bury her feelings. That's why she had to walk away at the end instead of welcoming Nelix and Tuvok back. I bet see had a cry in her quarters, which would have been good to see.

[@TKA001]

Why do Tuvok and Neelix both come back wearing the goldshirt uniform?

[@diviningdragon]

Thank you, Dave. Your insights are profound. Your solution is by far the most effective of the options possible, given the nature of the medium in general, and this show in particular. While I was studying teleplay writing in Los Angeles with a regular writer for ST: TNG back in '99, the instructor reminded me of the significance of leaving a 'legacy' of growth in a character so the characters didn't remain static. Weakness in any show was the point of pretending traumatic events never happened, or were referenced. In point of fact, the teleplay I wrote for the class was Neelix-centered since I felt there was incredible potential there. In my story, he was gifted with a special ability during the arc of the story, only to lose it at the close. My instructor recommended when I concluded the plot I should leave him with that ability to show his growth...It would have been a more emotive conclusion. In the case of Tuvix, the big issue is that never again did any of the characters reference him to show the impact he made on them. Whether a pattern buffer 'clone' was used to recreate Tuvix at a future date, or Tuvix graciously was allowed to bow out and sacrifice himself for the welfare of the others, or even seeing Janeway reviewing a personal log left by Tuvix in a future story to help resolve a later crisis, leaving her to question the morality of her sacrificing him in the first place--the issue in Tuvix narrative only offered an intellectual debate among viewers, and nothing else. Better execution (pun intended) of the narrative would have made a more long lasting emotional impact for the audience, and provided a direction for the regular characters to grow...I did not like the lack of empathy and support the Voyager crew displayed, and I felt is wasn't consistent with Starfleet values.

[@bigben8502]

"studying teleplay writing" lol

[@paulc6966]

What's the most interesting for me is that the writers & director chose deliberately to show the whole crew as totally unsympathetic psychos. Why?

[@SMP0328]

That scene on the bridge is cringeworthy. The bridge crew just stares at Tuvix like they are cult members.

[@coecludd]

Yes she did "technically" murder a merged individual. However, an option to bring back two individuals was probably her only choice (at least how she felt). I don't think that Tuvix should have continued personally. He wasn't given a "choice" but as he had already made his intentions on the matter known and wanted to continue as a merged being - almost an offspring. I would have been interested to know if the memories of Tuvix remained in both Tuvok and Neelix. A follow up story (or a change in their relationship thereafter) should have been shown. I love Star Trek 🙂🖖

[@benjamin6194]

Obviously the writers were always planning to bring back Tuvok and Neelix. The way they did that violated Starfleet's code of ethics. It didn't make sense for Starfleet officers to react in that way.

[@coecludd]

@@benjamin6194 So you suggest Janeway kills two people for the merged new individual? I honestly don’t know how any decision is correct. How would friends and family feel if they know that there is a way for the two originals to return to normal but it’s denied? You separate Tuvix, you destroy that individual. You keep Tuvix, you destroy two individuals.

[@benjamin6194]

@@coecludd Tuvix was created as the result of an accident, that was no one's decision. Killing him IS a decision. That's the difference. Imagine there's a car crash and some one will die without an organ transplant, does that give me the right to kill you and take your organs to save them? I can't morally choose to kill one person to save another, just because people will die either way.

[@coecludd]

@@benjamin6194 It's not the same. It's TWO PEOPLE over one. Anyway, the person that Tuvix was will presumably be remembered by Tuvok and Neelix. You could argue that Janeway had the choice to reverse the accident. To stop the car crash from happening and have the individuals back before it happened in the first place. Honestly, @Benjamin, I get where you're coming from. I just feel that Janeway had to do what she did.

[@benjamin6194]

@@coecludd The example I gave could easily be, as you said, TWO PEOPLE over one. Say 2 people are injured in car accident, they will die unless I kill you and take your organs to give them transplants. According to the logic of your argument about Tuvix, if it's ok for Janeway to kill Tuvix, it should also be ok for me to kill you and save those 2 accident victims. Both those arguments depend on the same line of reasoning. They are either both true or they are both false.

[@Torvar]

I describe Janeway as Chaotic Neutral, leaning Chaotic Evil.

[@Sindraug25]

The whole point of this episode is the moral dilemma. Ending it your way would be a nicer way for it to end, but it was meant to come down to the hard choice. I believe Janeway was indeed pushing her feelings down, so she could carry out her decision. And I don't agree that the crew was silent because they didn't have the balls to stand up to her. The way I took it was that they were silent because they *_agreed_* with her. I think they all felt it was wrong, Janeway included, but their desire to have Tuvok and Neelix back outweighed their moral judgement. Put yourself in their shoes. Imagine this happened to two of your closest friends or family. Now you can get them back by sacrificing this guy you've known for a few days. I think you'd know it was wrong, but you'd make the same choice Janeway and the crew did in the end.

[@Jashtvorak]

Yep, that’s what I think. The hard core choice and I think that she wasn’t ok with what she had to do. The nice way would be an easy way out and I’m glad that they didn’t do it.

[@john1701q]

No I would not. I would morn their losses and consider them gone. I would not trade the life of someone else for them. I have lost people in my life, I would never want someone else to die to have them back. I would not even trade the life of my worst enemy for my loved ones back.

[@abelhernandez2381]

Yes, he existed then she ordered that he no longer exist. They should have Thomas Rikered him. Clone him and split one of the clones.

[@_BenJaminCroft_]

Totally agree! When I first saw this episode I was like, "Cool! A new character." Maybe at least for a couple of episodes, obviously when we grow attached to Tuvix, and then all of a sudden something happens and Tuvix dies and Tuvok and Neelix come back, Tuvix dies and Tuvok and Neelix don't come back, or Tuvix, Tuvok, and Neelix all survive and we all live happily ever after. Any one of these three scenarios would've been waaaay better than this.

[@evertonporter7887]

They all survive, but Tuvix dies, just like B'lanna's Klingon half in the episode Masks.

[@sirskeptic]

Do a review of Enterprise S1E5 "Unexpected" - where Trip goes onboard an alien ship, and while he is semi-drugged a female alien has sex with him without his knowledge, gets him pregnant and then later in the episode catches up with the Enterprise and takes his child from him - all played for laughs.

[@genmaicha.lapsang]

That episode was gross. It's almost as bad "cogenitor" where the 3rd gender alien is basically a sxe slave and those aliens defend insitutional systamatic grape as "part of our culture."

[@dymitchell]

This was a very good and deeply disturbing episode. I'm glad Tuvix was not forgotten.

[@Alexander_Kale]

Why? If Tuvix was an amalgamation of two people, you could convincingly argue that he was one person with two souls. In other words, separating him into two again would not be a moral conundrum AT ALL...

[@dymitchell]

@@Alexander_Kale well, that's the beauty of a story like that. It let's the viewer decide what they believe to be right or wrong.

[@Alexander_Kale]

@@dymitchell wtf? sorry mate, I messed up. This comment wasn't meant to go your way. That said, I don't really share the view that star trek leaves the conclusion to the viewer. In some cases, that is true enough, but in a LOT of TNG episodes, it is abundantly clear which of the two opinions the writers want to deliver as the correct one. And some mess up enormously in the process. Like happened in this case, and like what happened in that one enterprise episode, where they debate on curing or not curing an "evolutionary disease". The TNG episode where data makes a penpal on a doomed planet is also somewhat disturbing in this regard, I think...

[@dymitchell]

@@Alexander_Kale true... most of the time the ending isn't ambiguous.. but my favorites are the ones that make you wonder. "I, borg" comes to mind. Also the one with the asexual race where Riker falls in love with one who identified as female. Great stuff! I miss good storytelling like that.

[@Alexander_Kale]

@@dymitchell Yeah, I Borg was pretty Awesome. Damn, I need to Rewatch TNG again....

[@bb001a]

As Captain I wouldn't have batted an eye. Kobayashi Maru 101.

[@bb001a]

I'll also add the the whole crew was saved countless times by the selfless actions of Tuvok and Neelix. In the end loyalty, obligation, gratitude, comradery and debt tipped the scales in their favor. Janeway accepted responsibility and everyone accepted the price paid to save their friends.

[@agm5424]

Another way to fix this is to have Tuvix choose to remain and have him for a couple of episodes then in one episode have him lethaly harmed or infected with a virus or radiation or something at the beginning of an episode and that there's nothing that can be done to save him, but that there may be a chance that the separating procedure could save the other two and, to a certain extent, him. Then you could have said episode be about him and the crew contemplating his "death" and celebrating his last day with a bang before choosing to separate into the other two.

[@makkdaddy5310]

She made the right choice.

[@therealpatriarchy]

Tuvix's right to consent cannot supersede that of the other two.

[@smoldragon339]

The other two had already consented by joining Starfleet/Voyager and accepting the risks that come with it.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Of course it can. "They" are gone and cannot express their desires. Maybe they are in heaven and don't want to come back.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

Luckily Neelix was not cojoined with a crew member named Serena. It would have been Servix.