Tuvix: Did Janeway Murder an Innocent Man?

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[@garym6315]

I love how the transporter had enough fashion sense to give him a merged costume that looks awesome.

[@AngelSebastianLeon]

Transporters and replicators have the same technology and we know transporters can save patters so... Yes, transporters could have some fashion subroutines.

[@MichaelBuieFilms]

I thought that was nice attention to detail, too.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

My wife and I were guests at Paramount in 96 and saw Tuvix being filmed. And Kes smoking. We visited both Voyager and DS 9 sets. The DS9 episode was a mirror unuverse story.

[@dasparado]

Must of been fun

[@aliciabell6688]

Did you see the neelix actor around?

[@brettcooper3893]

Ha. Crazy 'ol Jennifer Lein smoking.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

@@aliciabell6688 Good aftternoon. Yes, we saw him. It was mid afternoon and both actors were outside the set, Kes smoking. The guide told us a rough outline if the plot. They did not speak, although Avery Brooks said hello to my wife. I am not Bs ing here. Not many know we have been on the sets. Not many are interested. I only mentioned regarding the subject of this video. One thing I recall was the rotten fruit in the Kitchen where Neelix cooks.

[@spitfiremark1a768]

@@dasparado Hello, yes it was very interesting. I knew a chap that was an assistant of one of the actors. That was how we were able to visit.

[@eanobin9394]

I think that this episode was written to do what it has done for the last 20 years. Namely, stoke debate, similar to how 'Measure of a Man' is shown in philosophy 101 classes. From this perspective, the writing is absolutely brilliant, as the episode solution where there was cellular degradation in Tuvix or some other thing, would have turned this into a somewhat forgettable story with a convenient solution. Great Trek writing isn't just about telling a story, but it is also about contributing to philosophical discourse beyond the show. I can think of no greater example.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

Aye. Although I wonder if it was intended or not. It was after all Star Trek Voyager. That was when the rot began to creep into the franchise. i wouldn't be surprised if the writers actually had a particle of the week episode in mind and by accident painted the Voyager crew in this controversial negative light.

[@Grabthar191]

Didn't they do something similar in TOS when Kirk was split into his evil decisive self, and his goody two shoes indecisive self? I think at the end of that they remerged them, but that they had to force the evil half to do it. Would that be the similar to this situation?

[@davfree9732]

Well, I know my views on Tuvix. But like has been said... The debate is King. While I have my views, they can be challenged and tested. Flaws revealed that require a rethink and thinking unbowed by lesser logic... But, is it lesser when the originating point is different from your own? Tuvix at the time spurred debate in the infancy of social media, but also in face to face discussion. People didn't have group's they could nestle into and feel 'safe'. We had to hold our own against individuals. Good debaters considered not only the points in a discussion, but why people held those points. Weather they were logic based, emotional, set by life experience that in itself had context as to what happened... In the end, Tuvix lived at the expense of two men. And Janeway couldn't get back home if she was going to sacrifice the many for the few... Or the one. And while in later episodes she goes against that ethos for others in her crew... I can't help but think Tuvix had a profound effect on Janeway that maybe... she made a mistake. And living without guilt or regret is just as important... But she had a choice. Lose Tuvix, or Tuvok and Neelix. She regretted losing Tuvix. But had she not done what she did... She'd have regretted not bringing back Tuvok and Neelix whose lives Tuvix could never replace no matter his good intentions or how much he tried. In the end, there was no right answer. Only a wrong one that served the ship and crew better in the long run. Neelix would eventually leave, Tuvok would stay.

[@eezonly1sand0s54]

Dave should pin your comment. As he searches for a more palatable solution, he neglects the origin of the visceral response that he has over this episode. THAT is the point. I suspect that the unstated esoteric meaning behind Tuvix is one similar to the abortion issue. In this case, all three are innocent parties so who is to be saved, the fusion of the two or the voiceless victims of a tragic mishap? Dave needs to realize that the point is, regardless of the outcome, NO one truly wins.

[@Grabthar191]

@@davfree9732 I can't remember. Did Tuvok and Neelix both remember being Tuvix? Did they retain the memories of being together? If so, is Tuvix really gone?

[@DeltaAssaultGaming]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

[@TaliaIGhul]

Aside the canonical argument about the Kurtzman Star Trek shows, this is probably one of the most heated debates among Star Trek fans.

[@SethBrundleify]

He didn't even have a fair trial.

[@douggraham5082]

Yes. Yes she did. She also saved Tuvok and Neelix in the process, but at great price. This is one of the best VOY episodes ever, as it really created a conundrum for Janeway. Truly one of the greats.

[@jamesbizs]

Did she save them? They were gone. Dead. Not really saving. She recreated them

[@TentaclePentacle]

insaneway saved no one, insaneway resurrected tuvok and neellix by taking the life force of an innocent.

[@httohot]

They were a part of tuvix they were not dead When you use a teleporter you dont kill and then recreate people idiot….. Your logic would make every teleporter use murder. You just blindly hate janeway. Be more objective

[@BryceByerley]

It would have been greater if there were consequences down the line for her decision...but like Dave says, it gets forgotten at the end of the episode.

[@takerdust]

@@TentaclePentacle the "innocent life" was split into the original 2. Nothing was lost.

[@jceggbert5]

It's been a while since watching this episode, but if I remember correctly, she was like "this is not the optimal solution but I really need my chief security officer [since we're stuck here half a century from a restaff]". It felt more like an unfortunate decision made from crisis (being stranded) made for the betterment/survival of the crew, not something that she would've done if she could've warped back home in 2 weeks to get a new security officer and then reassign/whatever Tuvix. Just because he had Tuvok's memories doesn't mean he could entirely perform as Tuvok, and janeway *needed* Tuvok. Again, if memory serves, she arranged it so that all of the blame for his death fell on her, not the doctor, not chakotay, etc. It was her decision of "there's a way to have tuvok back, I need tuvok" and hers alone. A captain looking out for her entire crew at the unfortunate demise of a crewmember (though restoration of two lost ones). An interesting variation of this episode would be that the split failed and they lost all three. No tuvok, no neelix, no tuvix. Then she has to live with herself for sorta committing 3 murders. A bit dark for voyager but could work in one of the newer, darker treks.

[@jceggbert5]

or, another interesting plot could be that the split works but they're both vegetables and they have to find some wacky treknobabble solution to rebuilding tuvix and making him permanent

[@carlotta4th]

I agree. People saying Tuvix was "just as good" are ignoring the fact that he can't be in two places doing two things at once, while two individuals can. Voyager is incredibly far from everything with a limited crew and no options to pick up more people--willfully losing two great crew members in exchange for one is a huge downgrade to their chances of survival. Practically she didn't have much of a choice, she can't afford to lose crew members to accidents.

[@jceggbert5]

@@carlotta4th and who knows how long tuvix would remain stable (biologically and psychologically)

[@TheKain202]

@@carlotta4th If we're going that route, it's not like Nelix was particularly useful. I mean he could make you some good food but that's it as far as utility goes. Anyone can learn how to cook. Meanwhile Tuvix was essentially an upgraded Tuvok 2.0, who was even better at his job than the original, because he listened to his hunches AND could whip you a mean gourmet in a pinch.

[@allthingsnerd.4484]

@@TheKain202Neelix wasn’t just the cook. He was their ambassador to other Delta Quadrant species as well as the nearest thing they had to an expert/guide to the Delta Quadrant. Tuvok was an outstanding tactical and security officer. Tuvix was neither.

[@MidnightAspec]

This was the most disturbing episode of ST:Voyager ever. I didnt envy Janeway's predicament.

[@prolamer7]

I always hated so much that Janeway always acted like she is moral beacon of whole humanity... then next hour he orders execution, creation of mass dest weapons, errase timelines.... O_O worst was Equinox eps where that crew did some ugly killing in order to survive only to being lectured by JANEWAY on how super moral SHE is and how they disgust her. If I were crewman of Equinox I would sprung and started to choke that mad b.... .

[@SumDumGy]

The suggestion you made for an alternate take was essentially done in the Sim episode of Enterprise.

[@IPA300]

This episode is terrible because they had a perfect opportunity to write Neelix out of the show, but squandered it :( In all seriousness though: what frustrates me about this episode is that Tuvix is too perfect. He is largely portrayed as being just an upgraded (if slightly more annoying) version of Tuvok. What if the “positive” aspects of each character was negated by another trait of the other person? For example, the actual inciting incident could’ve been something like Tuvix losing his shit over some petty argument that got way out of control because Tuvok’s Vulcan strength and powerful emotions mixed negatively with Neelix’s emotional immaturity and lack of focus and control, thus resulting in a fight.

[@lonjohnson5161]

I think the point here was to show the difference in choices made in the safety of the Federation vs. as a lone ship far from home. Janeway needed Tuvok, not just for his skills, but also as her most trusted friend.

[@cycy1578]

Seriously this is a question? It’s not a person is a transporter accident. Janeway made the best choice.

[@alanmark12345]

Its actually a great dilemma that's hampered by the need to reset the series for the next episode. I don't even mind if Janeway pulled the trigger, what was missing from the episode was a degree of reflection, an admission maybe that this was the wrong choice, or that it was influenced by personal desires. It is a wholly un-starfleet and immoral choice. Just as Sisko murdered a senator to bring the Romulans into the war but he is able to justify it to himself and the audience. Whats lacking in this episode is that end of episode sell, how the character decides they are able to live with it.

[@michaeldevlin5101]

I agree. This episode never sat right with me.

[@tayloroc1]

This episode went upside down QUICK! I thought that they would clone him and then separate them. I never thought it would go the way it did. This is the most F'ed up episode that I have seen so far. (I'm watching them in order.)

[@johnjay370]

Good video. I like your episode conclusion better than the original. Good job.

[@alienamnesiac]

Hey Dave, it's great to see you make a video on this episode, which always sat uncomfortably with me as well. I had similar ideas about alternative conclusions to the episode. My thought was that Tuvix, eventually seeing the effects of Tuvok and Neelix's absence on the crew he had come to love, would voluntarily undergo the split with some reluctance out of a desire to make everyone happy again... despite his initial resistance. The crew could have even tried to stop him, believing strongly that it was wrong for him to sacrifice his own life and never having asked or expected him to. It was definitely weird that there was so little advocacy for Tuvix, and it also bothered me how it was all conveniently forgotten. The episode ended too abruptly. But I appreciate it for producing such strong feelings in me. One of the most underrated episodes, and moral dilemmas, in all of Star Trek, IMO.

[@agm5424]

Another way to fix this is to have Tuvix choose to remain and have him for a couple of episodes then in one episode have him lethaly harmed or infected with a virus or radiation or something at the beginning of an episode and that there's nothing that can be done to save him, but that there may be a chance that the separating procedure could save the other two and, to a certain extent, him. Then you could have said episode be about him and the crew contemplating his "death" and celebrating his last day with a bang before choosing to separate into the other two.

[@indianastones6032]

Yeah she sure did. He even begged for his life and the crew and captain Insaneway ignored tuvix's pleas.

[@paulpritchard1980]

The shows been over for a while now. I think it would've been more interesting if the doctor figured out a way to bring Tuvok and Neelix back. And saving Tuvix in the transporter. It would've added another cast member and given the writers new avenues to explore. Tuvix could learn about himself by talking to his biological fathers Tuvok and Neelix. And both Tuvok and Neelix could come to terms with creating a life form. I don't like pandering to the woke, but there it is. Sometimes in life things happen. And you just have to deal with it.

[@sigmacademy]

Well, you ALREADY have the two dads thing in Trek. Take Data, and his "two fathers" in Dr Soong and Picard. Dr Soong being the proud but absent dad, and Picard being the mentor figure to Data and seeing Data as almost the son he never had. You even have the darker side of Data in his "brother" Lore, and how Lore tried to destroy Data in the process, kinda hinting at bullying, sibling jealousy and family dysfunction to a degree.

[@Dimension137]

captain Janeway did the right thing she made the right decision and no I don't think it is murder he wasn't supposed to exist in the first place

[@summerhaas]

Whatever you think about the quality of writing in this episode, if the newer Trek was as thought provoking, we would all be better off.

[@DeltaAssaultGaming]

Agreed!

[@JonathanLopez-bk7rx]

That because janeway is a cold blooded psycho

[@zepmarq]

Long Live Tuvix. Janeway was wrong...

[@MamaMOB]

She made the only moral choice. Save two lives who have families over a single life with no family. Point-blank that is the ONLY moral choice. Especially since the one life is comprised of the two other lives. If she saved Tuvix she was murdering Tuvok and Neelix. It’s up to you guys what you think is better killed a guy with no family who spring into existence because of the ending of two other lives or to death with family that will mourn them. TLDR: if they saved Tuvix they were murdering Tuvok and Neelix causing their loved ones pain for the sake of those two peoples murderer. If all of you people arguing that this was the wrong choice were Tuvok or Neelix or the families of Tuvok or Neelix you’d agree with Janeway. No one would agree with saving Tuvix because he’s not a real person and he has no right to life.

[@HM-rz8nv]

I agree completely! In a very similar way, i argue the point by getting the self-righteous anti-janeway crowd to image if two of their close friends or family members were merged in a same way to Tuvix. I doubt the vast majority would still be arguing favorably for the 'merged' person' over the two original people. It's so easy for people to judge people making tough moral dilemma's without putting themselves in a similar set of shoes. If I was in Janeway's shoes, i would make the same decision, without hesitation. Two lives is greater than the one being sustained at the expense of the two. for me it's that simple.

[@Crazyfixer]

Did Janeway Murder an Innocent Man? yes she did to save two other people its a lose lose scenario

[@cha02psc]

Janeway shoulda used the transporter to preserve Mr Tuvok and Mr Tuvix.

[@Zeruyu]

Janeway in general is the worst commanding officer in Starfleet history. The amount of questionable command decisions she made is beyond believe. But because she is a woman you are not welcome to talk about it.

[@sassa82]

Dont agree. She was put in a very difficult sitauation that no other of the captains kirk, picard etc has been put in. So one can not compare them with Janeway.

[@butterflyfieldtrips]

This was Janeway's own personal Kobayashi Maru test.

[@TaraWert1]

No, she corrected an error.

[@adamdavis1737]

The needs of the Tuvok outweigh the needs of the Tuvix

[@pianotm]

So, while I was listening to this, I decided to actually look up Tuvix. I'm actually kind of shocked to learn that the writers deliberately wrote this as an execution. The episode may have been morally ambiguous, but what Janeway did wasn't. The writers consciously had Janeway commit murder, and it was written that way to start a conversation about what decisions would be made differently in a survival situation like this, and what morals would be thrown out the window for the good the ship. I was actually speechless for a good while, and it makes me wonder how out-of-character Janeway actually was through the series. For the writers to actually sit down and deliberately, consciously write a scenario where the captain will disregard all of the philosophies of the Federation and the practices of Starfleet and have the captain knowingly commit an act of premeditated murder for the sake of exploring this scenario of a ship stranded across the galaxy is damned ballsy. I don't know if it was a story that Star Trek should have told--I'm sort of glad they did now that I know that--but total respect for the writers laying it on the line like that. Also, Chakotay's complicity could easily be dismissed as him coming to the same conclusion Janeway did, and guilt or no, accepting it as the way things needed to be from their point of view. He's a captain, too, and he was a captain in a terrorist organization at war. He's accustomed to crossing lines that shouldn't be crossed in normal times and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that whether he liked it or not, he agreed with Janeway.

[@blusteryday1602]

Totally agree.

[@sandman_says_runrunner4701]

It becomes even more interesting when you juxtapose this episode with "Equinox" (S5,E26-S6,E1). Janeway condemning Captain Ransom and his crew for doing basically the same thing she did in "Tuvix". Though Janeway did that a lot in this series. I like that they had the courage to write this episode. That is one of Star Trek's (OG Trek anyway) strengths... put topics up for debate without really giving and answer or taking a side.

[@boobah5643]

Even if Chakotay agreed, he owed it to both Tuvix and Janeway to challenge her on the decision, if only to ensure she'd thought it through.

[@Alexander_Kale]

The problem lies mostly in how it was phrased. If a Starfleet captain is allowed to order people to their death given certain circumstances, which one of the TNG episodes outright states they can do, then executing TUvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back may have been a justified if unpopular decision. It's just that the moral framing of the action was so incredibly badly done by the writers that Janeway's actions came off as deeply reprehensible.

[@Viothon]

@@sandman_says_runrunner4701 This kind of Hypocrisy is what made me not respect Janeway as a captain.

[@AQuietVoice2022]

DS9 had a very similar episode wherein the consciousness of Kurzon Dax fused with Odo. Though the circumstances, and by extension the moral dilemmas were different, it was still posing the question of two beings who had become one. Trill and Trill Symbioses often raised such questions as to the nature of the self. I do believe that Janeway's actions and demeanor were a defense mechanism as she made the hard call. One of the reasons why it was such a hard call was that she was making the wrong choice and she knew it. There were other options to be made and explored had the writers chose to allow it, but she determined that her friend Tuvok was more valuable to her. Kate Mulgrew did a good job of expressing the cold resolve needed to betray the ethics of Starfleet in this manner. The scene on the bridge is one of the most horrific in all of Star Trek because every one of those officers must henceforth rely on the Nuremberg Defense and the words attributed to Edmund Burke will forever echo in their consciences: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” This was honestly one of those episodes that cause the greater Trek fandom to have strong feelings about Janeway's fitness as a captain. Though I found it quite amusing that the artificial intelligence (Robert Picardo is amazing!) had more compassion and a stronger sense of ethics than an entire ship of Federation Officers.

[@tonyphillips8726]

This episode highlights the biggest issue that I had with Voyager: there are no consequences. Some episodes had very strong writing and character growth (like this episode) and then everything would be undone within the final five minutes. The only consequence that comes to mind that lasted more than one episode was when Paris was demoted to Ensign. Granted, the only thing that happened was he had to change his pip. That was it. Same shift. Same job. Same responsibilities... just a different pip. The exception would be them getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant, but c'mon, that was the point of the entire show so you can't really count that.

[@whos-the-stiff]

Also Voyager herself rocked home looking as new as when she left. That ship should have been battered and chock full of alien tech to the point of barely appearing like a federation ship at the end. BSG did that concept properly, at the end that ship was barely holding together.

[@tonyphillips8726]

@@whos-the-stiff agreed 100%

[@drzerogi]

I like the way it's written as is. Giving Janeway yet another out by making the fusion unstable is far less interesting than what we have now: a fascinating dilemma for us all to talk about.

[@saturn580]

The problem with this episode isn't that Janeway committed murder, it's that the consequences of that murder were swept under the rug, making the entire crew complicit, and the audience too if we go on liking her. Seeing Janeway haunted by guilt or despised by some members of her crew would have made her seem much more sympathetic and less cold blooded.

[@cambellschunky704]

One thing Dave didn't bring up was Janeway's predicament of losing a tactical officer and confidant along with a ships cook and only expert on board with knowledge of the immediate area. Remember that they are stranded and are essentially alone in the Delta Quadrant on a ship with a finite crew and resources. That being said, I do not agree with Janeway's decision or her behavior leading up to the ultimate action of dispatching Tuvix. And the Voyager storyline was not set where damage and ailments to the ship and crew were cumulative, such as they were on BSG or Enterprise - Voyager was essentially spit shined and operated at near peak efficiency at the beginning of every episode. I could see the Captain of the Equinox (two parter from Voyager) making such a rash decision and acting as Janeway does in this episode, given his willingness to sacrifice life to get home. But throughout the series Janeway seemed to try to uphold Federation values, for the most part, to almost a fanatical degree. While I still re-watch Voyager every few years, I consider it one of the weaker series of classic Trek. A lone starship, slugging it out, far away from home could have made a great overall story arc much like season 3 of Enterprise. But that's just my $0.02. Great job as always, Mr. Cullen. I always look forward to your well written introspects.

[@twelve11]

Amazing video... but what about the orchids?

[@BeNice108]

Tuvix' cells breaking down and having to sacrifice himself would have been so cliché. Although, I do think this was an idea that should've been fleshed out more.

[@RobinTimDrake]

This is a rather straight forward problem in ST that people love to over analyze. 1) Needs of the many, come before the needs of the few. Saving 2 lives over 1. & 2) During Troi's bridge training, she had to make the decision to sacrifice a crewmember for the ship comes first. Janeway did exactly that.

[@johntowers1213]

So the Vidiians were doing the right thing zooming round the delta quadrant killing those that they met for their body parts to save their species? By your own logic the needs of the many clearly out way the needs of the few and yet oddly the same Starfleet crew seem to take issue with that...when they're the few that need sacrificing for the many.

[@RobinTimDrake]

@@johntowers1213 that's a ridiculously flawed argument. They were stealing and mutilating people for their own selfish and personal objectives, damn the consequences. Janeway made a tough choice within the boundaries of Starfleet protocol. Not the same thing.

[@johntowers1213]

@@RobinTimDrake Janeway made the choice to further her own personal and selfish objectives in returning her crew back to the Alpha quadrant where Neelix and Tuvock were tools she decided were of more worth in that venture than Tuvix ..damn the consequences.. so how is that any different? if this accident had happened in the Alpha quadrant do you honestly think she would have been allowed to Kill Tuvix to bring the other two back from the dead..? Not a chance in hell that would have happened... So entirely the same thing... just one you dont like thinking about.

[@joe9739]

I think Tuvok and Neelix accidently got on the Breath of Fire 2 pads and a Shaman was nearby and....fusion!

[@davidalangay1186]

I think this episode should have been a two parter.

[@sespider]

Cool story concept but badly written. My simple take. The characters were not lost/dead. They were still very much alive, within Tuvix. They simply could not speak for themselves. Tuvix was nothing more then a combination of parts of their personalities and bodies. Because of this, it is mute to suggest he was a new being. It would be great if talented writers wrote this concept into a new episode for the franchise. But expanded it across multiple episodes and truly explored it, while acknowledging the original event. Explore how it effected the captain at the time and onward. As well as new precautions put into place if the accident ever happened again. I can easily seeing the original event forcing each member of the Federation to reflect on this accident repeating and involving them. Forcing a Last Will And Testament record for each staff member. And that Will be the staff members' way to speak for themselves. In addition; what would the precautions be if a new accident joined a Federation member with that of a non-member? What if it combined a adult with a child? Combined someone with a animal/pet? Heck. What if it combined someone with aninanimate object, but still resulted in a new being? What if it combined two androids? What if it occurred during peace talks but the two (or more) involved are enemies? The list goes on and on. My point is this one accident opens a large can of worms that the Federation would be forced to address and put measures in place to address every senerio possible. Including how it would effect not only the lives "taken" but those of the new being.

[@Zontar82]

and killing two people, with previous lives and jobs and personalities, in the name of a new, weird mutation of both?

[@VerdantRange]

I just wonder why they didn't call up the pattern data from when Tuvok and Neelix beamed down and use that to materialize them on the pad. It worked for Picard and something similar was done in TAS.

[@oddish4352]

I don't think Janeway could be charged with murder because there's probably no legal precedent for separating two beings who were combined into one by a transporter accident. Just as, if Commander Maddox had won his case and then dismantled Data and Data had been destroyed in the process, he would not have been charged.

[@TheBelegur]

What if the whole crew where combined into one person. Would that person have the right to live at the expense of hundreds of lives? Of coarse not.

[@OldBlue560]

She butchered him. Tuvok/Nelix were lost, A new sentient being/life was created, she extinguished it.

[@haitolawrence5986]

If they were completely lost how could they have ever been recovered?

[@HM-rz8nv]

@@haitolawrence5986 Don't ask that question, it makes the anti-janeway moral reductionist mind explode.

[@johncanuck2744]

The point being missed here is that these people are military, not civilians. “Janeway must respect Tuvix’s will to live”. No, she doesn’t. As a captain, she has the authority to order her crew to their deaths if deemed necessary. Tuvix considered himself to be, and was treated as a member of Star Fleet, and thus, was beholden to his captains authority. This is an extreme example obviously, but a captain has the authority to send their crew on dangerous, or even suicidal missions, and the crew can’t just say “nah, I want to live” and get out of it.

[@MRF1983]

I'm VERY interested in how the convos about this subject go, this is something I've argued about with family/ friends who watch Star Trek since I first saw this episode in reruns in the late 90's or early 2000's. IMO it should've never even been a dilemma, Tuvix should've lived. Realistically as Mr. Cullen points out that wasn't going to happen due to two regular cast members being involved. Even Mr. Cullen's solution about Janeway abiding by Tuvix's decision to live and then a situation occurring that would necessitate Tuvix choosing to separate himself for the good of the crew is something I've come up with when making the point in favor of Tuvix living. Janeway was written badly as was much of Voyager, it's not Kate Mulgrew's fault that's the quality of writing they gave her to work with. Given the things Janeway and some of her crew have done, Voyager is far, FAR worse than the Equinox and it's crew. Hell, the fact that Janeway's alliance with the Borg led to the virtual entire assimilation of at least one species that we know of drastically overshadows the Equinox actions and yet when Star Fleet command gets hold of Voyager's logs they promote her to admiral. Do you think Janeway ever saw Tuvix attacking her in her dreams like Captain Ransom saw 7 of 9 turn into one of the aliens he'd killed? Or dreamed about the screams of children being assimilated into the collective after she's been assimilated herself and fully understood what she'd inflicted on a race to get home faster?

[@sigmacademy]

I think it's meant to represent "one of those things that are supposed to haunt you as a leader who made hard decisions", although the series never really went anywhere with that framing. Everything Janeway did was kinda justified (both in her eyes and in Starfleet's) as necessary to bring her crew back home. How and why Starfleet would seem to allow some people to flout rules and others to be punished for not following it, is, however, a topic for debate. I'd place the Equinox and Voyager on the same level, because one crew ACTIVELY AND DELIBERATELY exploited and killed anyone to get home regardless of permission (Equinox), while the other indirectly and sometimes accidently did some of the same. The argument comes in when you want to debate whether being active and deliberate is worse than indirectly and accidentally, especially when the Equinox followed a strict get home as quickly as possible route, while Voyager involved itself in pretty much everybody's affairs in the Delta Quadrant on its way home and whatever cultures laid on its route. Otherwise, you'd also have to blame the Borg kids for their part in virtual genocide of peoples who they never had a choice in NOT hurting, because they were compelled by Borg implants to comply with commands they HAD to obey.

[@MRF1983]

@@sigmacademy I understand what you're saying. With Icheb and the other Borg children, as you said they were compelled against their wills to do whatever the Borg collective consciousness/ Borg queen directed them to. Between Voyager and the Equinox, as you said Ransom and his crew deliberately murdered people/ aliens whereas Voyager "involved" itself, but I personally most definitely would not put them on par with each other. I think Ransom said they needed to kill 60 something more aliens to get home, so assuming they'd killed about that many to that point the Equinox crew intentionally murdered about 150 aliens. Voyager was responsible for the assimilation of all but one individual of an entire species and that's just one species that we know of. Unintentional or not, I personally see Janeway as far, far worse than Ransom when compared to that scope. All that said, it's all fiction and IMO Janeway's character and most of Voyager was poorly written. Picard is shown having issues after his assimilation experience, both his own trauma and running into people like Commander Sisko who held him personally responsible. Even after Janeway herself was assimilated, we're never given a glimpse into her character's trauma or/ and guilt on having inflicted that fate onto others/ and entire species.

[@wyattmann8157]

Why does no one ever seem to recoil from the selfishness displayed by Tuvix? In the Star Trek universe where we have repeatedly seen selfless beings give their lives (or offer them) willingly to save others (Spock, Data, Commodore Decker, McCoy _in The Empath,_ Scotty _in Mirror Mirror,)_ do we suddenly have such reverence for a character who was never meant to exist and yet is unwilling to give up his brief existence to save two other men…men with families, friends and futures? You won’t see me shedding any tears over him. This was Janeway’s _In the Pale Moonlight_ moment…and she rose to the occasion magnificently. 🙂

[@All_I_can_say_is_Wow]

She saved two people. I can't get over how silly people actually argue about this.

[@nmoddentity8401]

I found this episode to be a really powerful one when i watched it recently. I think it would've lost much of its impact had it been written differently. You can argue back and forth if what Janeway did was moral or logical or was just cold blooded. But as a captain, she had to make a decision. She was faced with the trolley car paradox and chose the lives of two of her crew over an innocent being. The fact it didn't resolve neatly, that Janeway made a decision that may feel morally wrong to many was, I believe, the point. There was no "right" choice. And, as captain she now holds the burden of making that decision, not the crew.

[@AltairZielite]

I can't believe you have not yet reviewed "Person of Interest" ... The sci-fi TV show that is already basically a documentary.

[@mikerochburns4104]

I never thought that hard about it, it's just a spacey tv show.

[@projektkobra2247]

She did...but in doing so she saved two innocent men....it was obviously meant to create this reaction, we have a handsome, kind-hearted, logical NEW INDIVIDUAL being...the best of both characters....who you could argue was BETTER than the sum of his parts...but he was a mistake...he should never have been. Its one of the few truly really GREAT Voyager episodes.

[@whitleypedia]

She intentionally killed an innocent man after two innocent men had died in an accident.

[@jamesbizs]

She didn’t save anyone. They no longer existed. She didn’t prevent them from dying. This would be worse than killing someone’s child, to save the parents, because you need the child’s organs

[@jamesbizs]

And many kids are “mistakes” too. Doesn’t mean we can harvest their organs after the fact, just because the parents didn’t want the child or agree to it being alive.

[@TentaclePentacle]

she didn't save anyone, she resurrected two dead people by blood magic, and that blood magic required an innocent life.

[@whitleypedia]

@@jamesbizs Chinese Communist Party: "Hold my beer"

[@BTG514]

The needs of the many outweighed the needs of the fused.

[@misterlau5246]

Because if it wasn't a question of Katie Janeway "I can't decide whether you should live or die", then it's not that hard on emotions. Not everything is happiness... And the story precisely has the autoconclusive episodes format, and since we already knew those two actors were going to continue as their characters, giving it the easy solution wouldn't have been so omg Kate! 😔

[@patrickf.4440]

The concept of the transporter is interesting in so many ways. Was the creation of the "two Kirks," one wimpy, one overly aggressive, also an issue (although not considered at the time)? Questions have been debated about this throughout Star Trek's history: When a person is completely taken apart, turned into only marginally technically explained "something else," does the person die and come back to life? If there is the possibility of a soul/life force/whatever involved, what happens to it? And all stemming from a plot device that resulted from the original Trek's producers not having yet finished the model for a shuttlecraft! Let the speculation continue where no speculation has gone before. Pat, in Chicago

[@castieldiallo2945]

The Gaelic one is correct. I personally would have given him the choice.

[@OneWisdomj25]

I thought the coldness by the crew was a hard truth. Everyone wanted Tuvok and Neelix back. Was it even possible for the crew to accept Tuvix as long as there was a chance to bring their loved ones back; or could it have possibly led to a growing resentment amongst the crew that would have torn them apart later? Emotions must be dealt with or they will surface in a dangerous way. Could Janeway afford to send a message that if something happened to one of the crew they would only be saved if it didn’t cross ethical lines. It was a no win situation and I think the Captain made the only choice to keep the family strong. They were alone out there and a very long way from home. They needed to know their Captain would always put the crew first.

[@adrianokury]

And all this talk of 2 against 1 didn't apply in the case of Kirk, where 1 person was split into 2, but the "right thing" to do was to merge them again. So, the common ground here seems to be: transporter errors can divide or merge people, but that doesn't make the results new people with rights to live rather than temporary states. The original state always trumps the rest.

[@KineticSymphony]

Honestly, how this ended isn't surprising given the pragmatism of losing Tuvok and Neelix. But as you mention several times, just how casually nonchalant everyone is (besides the good doctor) is disturbing. I'm not sure why they wrote everyone out to be Dexter-level psychos with zero empathy.

[@roseknightmare]

I never understood why tuvix couldn't have been copied in the transporter buffer before process to unravel the two characters was undertaken. A little unsafe usage, a slightly shorter lifespan for tuvax an nelix and we get a great new character for the crew.

[@danieltaylor5231]

You're missing an important point though. Without Tuvok who would comb the desert?

[@realleif3310]

I would have made it different, i know that its a common trope already, but i would have made the merged body with both minds still fully intact. THat way Tuvok adn NEelix, who never really saw eye to eye, and with Tuvok avoiding Neelix, wwere forced to start to acknowledge each other- This would have given both characters a lot of chance for growth in this early season.

[@continentalglue]

To bring back the regular cast members, It’s weird the writers didn’t form the end of the story it in a way that leads to the crew acknowledging that Tuvix has the right to his own choices as a new sentient life form, and his ultimate choice is to place the mission above himself or something by agreeing to the reversal “for the benefit of the crew” - That way he goes out like a hero. Like that one enterprise episode with the Tucker clone.

[@Daiqatana]

The only relevant comparison I can think of is Riker's transporter clone. He obviously got to live, and was given full right to life, autonomy, and regained his commission. Maybe they could have made a transporter clone. Janeway was in a unique situation, and it could have worked, legally.

[@dilloncrowe1018]

Didn't "Measure Of A Man" do this, and handle it WAY better?

[@grayhilliard8543]

Thought provoking review. On reflection, it seems that the alternative ending you propose would be a good episode of "Safe" Trek where hard hitting plot points are waved away by a twist or techno-babble/deus-ex-machina style writing. We've seen that before and Voyager was already gathering a lot of criticism that the opening premise of a Starfleet crew without the safety net of the known and friendly Federation and allies to back them up would allow a new era of story telling. Just see the videos that point out the early concern that Voyage only had a finite number of photon torpedoes and then went on to use vastly more throughout the series. The ship being damaged without easy repair and restocking could have been a compelling story environment. Years later, the Equinox episodes did a good job cycling back to this point, but that story also took "Safe" Trek outs by making the ship smaller and under-resourced compared to Voyager. Anyway, while this episode could have done a better job as you say by showing some follow on consideration of the loss of the Tuvix character, I do think it took the right path given how hard it is to convey the long history of the relationship Janeway had with Tuvok and how she would understand the same between Kes and Neelix. Janeway as captain is responsible for their lives even though she didn't have reason to believe the planet posed a novel risk to those lives. Had Voyager wanted to start the later move towards longer plot hooks at this episode rather than wrapping it all up in 40 minutes, it would have been interesting to see Tuvix in the combined role for a couple episodes to where the crew and the audience saw him as a key contributor and saw more of his unique value as a totally different person. Then crafting a twist to drive the separation after we settled into the idea that the two characters were gone would be a more powerful and harder to endure 'loss' to everyone and made for a wider runway to let arguments about the ethical conundrum spark among the crew.

[@scottwalker6947]

For the most part Voyager was all about "the hard decisions". Unfortunately, (as you said) dealing with these decisions can't be given justice in one episode. IMO, Janeway wasn't being a "psycho", cold blooded, yes. As in the constrained time limit of the episode, that is what the writers felt was necessary. Having Tuvix sacrifice himself "down the line" would have been a great story. Unfortunately, Trek is loaded with unfinished stories (what happened to that signal the parasites sent out?), and missed opportunities, like this. Which is the main problem with an episodic TV show, as compared to a more linear approach to story telling. That is why SG-1 is one of my all time favourites. It was episodic, but the shows creators did their best to have a continuity that was followed, and allowed for the characters to deal with the consequences of their decisions in the future.

[@GearsAndGaming]

This reminds me of Star Trek Enterprise where they have to sacrifice Trips clone to save Trip.

[@KidMetairie]

Did the two not hold the memory and experience of the one? You could argue he didn’t really die, but was just separated into two parts.

[@Amazingsloth]

Dave - related question - was killing the Crystalline Entity justified? If it had been killed in self defense obviously - but the way it was destroyed was clearly a crime in TNG.

[@toddtangen6750]

For Tuvix to exist, both Tuvok and Neelix must both be destroyed. If the needs of the many exceed the needs of the few, Tuvix MUST be separated.

[@Monkyking33]

Jane Wayne was the only one that understood that tuvix was fake. It’s like someone getting upset that their ai gf was deactivated

[@kubrickenigma7977]

The crews need of Tuvok (and to a lesser degree Neelix) outweighed the unhappy accident of Tuvix. As a commander, Janeway had to restore both Tuvok and Neelix so as to improve the chances of the Voyager making it back to Star Fleet within their lifetimes.

[@johntowers1213]

So just like the crew of the Equinox needed to suck the life force from those aliens to power there trip home? ... both cases saw 1 group killing for personal gain.. the exact same gain in fact.

[@TheTimeRocket]

"So spoke the Spectre shuddring, & dark tears ran down his shadowy face Which Los wiped off, but comfort none could give! or beam of hope Yet ceasd he not from labouring at the roarings of his Forge With iron & brass Building Golgonooza in great contendings Till his Sons & Daughters came forth from the Furnaces" -William Blake

[@PowerCookie1]

1:05 Rick: Nooo don't name it

[@keennickolas8575]

They were in the DELTA quadrant ... kinda out on their own ... if you d be on a lost island without any way for help ... you'd have to make "quick and tough calls"!

[@sigmacademy]

Okay, I'm coming at this from another perspective. First, I think the fact that nobody was willing to defend Tuvix's right to life is because both of the rigid nature of the chain of command, but also in how you don't really know whether it's moral cowardice or confusion on the part of the crew on what the "right" choice is that is at the heart of the scene. The crew TRUSTS Janeway's instincts, and probably partially realizes that one being was "accidentally" created at the cost of two of their crewmates, and that getting their crewmates (and important elements of the crew) back trumped Tuvix's right to life, which was a "hijacked" one in any case. It highlights the fact that blind faith in leadership is probably just as bad as trying to commit terrible things because you can justify it. I think the lesson you can learn from the episode can be interpreted in several ways, and which makes it one of the better episodes of Voyager (which has its fair number of issues for sure). Also, take the following into account - using the Doctor as a counter voice was a good choice because of the Oath that doctors take to do no harm, but at the same time, it hardly places the doctor in a morally positive place, because he's a machine that is bound by whatever was programmed into him. So not only does his counter effectively mean nothing, the fact that Janeway can effectively overrule his decision in trying to save a life means executive overreach and abuse of power isn't just a possibility, but an actual tool that Janeway employs in this episode. That gives her character more moral ambiguity, but also questions just how much of a leader she is when rules only apply to her when it suits her. It gives her character a DELICIOUS morally grey aspect, but at the same time also creates confusion, because her "power trips" aren't consistently employed through the Voyager series, and as such seems as weird additions whenever certain episodes demand it, like her arguments with Seven when Seven OPENLY questions her in front of crew on issues which Seven is in the right and Janeway in the wrong. Which is why Seven was SUCH A GREAT ADDITION, because she was the person that applied the brakes to Janeway's sometimes forceful ego, indirectly taking Janeway back to complying with Starfleet rules and regulations on the one hand, and employing rationality in situations that demanded it. Also, if you want TRUE moral dilemmas, consider the following: Janeway pretty much sacrificed a stranger to save her friends in a clear violation of human/alien/sentient species rights (which is something you'd think would be part of Starfleet principles). So not only did she act in self interest, but she ACTIVELY violated Starfleet principles in the process as well. That makes her a truly great friend, but somewhat awful human being, and CLEARLY not the type of person that Starfleet aspires to have in its fleet (but then again, Starfleet captains are expected to be adaptable and willing to go that extra mile in ensuring the best possible outcome, as seen in Kirk and how he's pretty much rewarded for flouting the rules that everyone else is forced to follow). That is ironically what I like about Janeway - she's not the straight arrow, by the book Starfleet type - she knows her actions and insistence on Starfleet principles dumped her crew in the Delta Quadrant, and that she is bound by a vow to get them home, no matter WHAT she has to do to make that happen, and that's why she was ALWAYS the best captain to lead her crew home in such a scenario. That is why you see her VIOLATING Starfleet rules and principles whenever it suits her (and she did so on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS), but limits her crew into adhering to said rules and principles whenever needed. She's not a moral character, and you can hardly say that she's even principled in any significant way, but you can hardly deny that as a leader she's does not shy away from hard or awful choices, and you can't deny that she would tear off the Gates of Hell to go and save her crewmembers, even when it hardly makes strategic sense or places Starfleet in a bad diplomatic position in a future engagement between species or alien races.

[@ClonePilotSwoop]

Even from the first airing, I thought it was wrong for Janeway to kill Tuvix. And you brought up a great alternative, if Tuvix's body was rejecting the combination, like in TOS "The Enemy Within", Kirk split into two and neither could live without the other. That's why they had to force both back into one. Imagine in TNG "Second Chances", that with no threat to Thomas or William, Captain Picard just said "naw, we don't need two Rikers". Tuvix was able to continue doing the job of Neelix and Tuvok, as well as lighten the load of the crew. It was only one less mouth to feed, but in a 70+ year trip, that adds up.

[@FuckYoutubeCensorship]

This is truly the manufactured conflict that made Voyager annoying as hell and inconsistent.

[@whos-the-stiff]

I mostly never rated Voyager highly compared to the others, it failed to deliver on its premise. But this Tuvix episode and the episode Death Wish were brilliant thought provoking episodes, with Equinox in third place.

[@alecott2745]

How about saving a copy of Tuvix in the "pattern buffer" and then after separating the two, materialize Tuvix back to life? There were two Rikers after all. And if they didn't want him as a re-occurring character, there are all kinds of "tragic" ways to get rid of him.

[@AkuTenshiiZero]

Star Trek has a bad habit of forgetting they can pretty much clone people at any time.

[@RatchildUK]

A clone isn’t the original person, it’s just someone else who looks like you.

[@Grabthar191]

@@RatchildUK ... who secretly wants to murder and replace you with themselves... :P

[@maxmercer1931]

This

[@anaudio]

Exactly what I was gonna say. Other than that, I don't care about these things. xD It's just a tv show, especially in this case. I would've done the same as Janeway. Especially if it was as easy as shown.

[@BlazingOwnager]

I think the ultimate reason this constantly comes up is not the choice they made. But the fact someone is running around the bridge begging for their life and everybody cold shoulders them like they're in a sadistic episode of the Twilight Zone. And it's never mentioned again..

[@shauntempley9757]

No, everyone cold shouldered him, because he was an accidental creation. They all agreed with Janeway, that Neelix and Tuvok should be restored. Tuvix had no right to take the place of both men, or make decisions on behalf of the other men. In many ways, Tuvix is a violation of the Prime Directive by his very existence.

[@tenkenroo]

@@shauntempley9757uvix was an accidental life fully formed with bodily autonomy. He didnt personally rob anything. It’s not his fault he was made. He was 100 percent murdered

[@oddish4352]

That's because Janeway has cult-leader level charisma, inspiring blind allegiance. She puts the Maquis in Starfleet uniforms... they're eating out of her hand in weeks. She destroys Harry's Starfleet career by keeping him at ensign for 7 years... he still reveres her. Voyager visits a human colony where the crew can live out their days in safety... no one stays. Not even the Maquis or Joe Carey, and need I remind you that Janeway promoted Torres to his job after the latter assaulted him. Janeway could have demanded that they make Tuvix into soup and eat him, and they'd have done it.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@oddish4352 Remember Thomas Riker's fate with the Cardassians. That happened, because the Federation Council ordered it. Kira was commanded by them through Sisko, to take the Defiant, the rest of the Maqui crew into custody, and turn Riker over to the Cardassians. The Council did that, because they did not recognise Riker's existence, because he was created by a transporter accident. They made that decision after the Kirk one, when he was divided. The Council made into law, that Federation rights only exist for that person, and that person only. If that person is changed by a transporter, then those rights are instantly suspended, until the issue is rectified and the original person is returned. If Tuvix had happened in the Alpha Quadrant, the Council would have ordered what Janeway did anyway, and the Vulcan Science Council would have been furious that it took so long before it happened. This issue would have had her at a court martial, on the Vulcan's complaint on that point alone.

[@Johnny_Nitro]

@@shauntempley9757 Do you even Star Trek bro? Tuvix IS the very definition of "new life". IDIC is how Tuvix was created. There was no malice when the accident happened, Neelix and Tuvok simply merged into something new. Tuvix begged for his life and Kathy was like "naw, I miss my butler and cook, so time to abort this baby." Janeway is sociopath. Picard would have kept Tuvix alive. What brings my piss to a boil is how Kes the child bride and her crying decides the fate of this poor victim of circumstance.

[@ChrisParrishOutdoors]

Janeway's attitude was 100% a a defense mechanism. She was steeling herself. She came across like a cold psycho because she forced all emotional detachment so she could make the hard call. Chakotay doesn't question her in front of the crew anymore by this episode so doing so at that moment wasn't an option. It would make more sense for Tom to do so as he doesn't usually care about that sort of thing.

[@fidelperez4837]

Chakotay would have asked to speak with her in the ready room, but I also agree that Tom would have said something right then. Can't remember if this was before or after the demotion so maybe that might have been part of Tom not speaking up.

[@tdegrddeehjgd]

@@fidelperez4837 it was like 3 seasons before his demotion.

[@BlazingOwnager]

Nah, Janeway is crazy AF and not in the good way like you want.

[@fidelperez4837]

@@tdegrddeehjgd that's right. i think Neelix was way gone before the demotion

[@Bjorick]

@@fidelperez4837 no, that was in season 5 - i think neelix brings him his food and the pad to write a letter, but neelix is the one who relays the captain's orders - tuvix is season 2 as kes is still there i really think the issue with voyager is that they wanted a woman captain, but they didn't ever stop to think if they could write for a female captain - and they weren't willing or able to do the work - voy had a great premise, but the execution is flawed, too much trek and not enough voyager - they never (other then one off episodes) have the weight and consequences, the ship ALWAYS looks like it just came out of spacedock

[@kerravon4159]

It was a mercy killing, being merged with Neelix is literally a fate worse than death.

[@SansoHumar]

Oh come on. Neelix isn’t that bad.

[@Thomas-VA]

Yours is the only argument I can get onboard with.

[@MaxIzrin]

I would offer a third view on this: This all depends on how "the self" is defined, and continuation of said "self". Both points of view presented assume that the self is lost for Tuvok and Neelix, and that Tuvix is new and unique, but what if it isn't so? What if Tuvix is a condition suffered by Tuvok and Neelix, that still exist, just in a different form? From this point of view, Tuvix's objections are akin to the objections of a madman refusing to take his pills. This completely legitimizes the separation, and there is no moral dilemma. Of course the question at the heart of this is: what are the boundaries of the self?

[@Bjorick]

i'm just amazed by the vid saying that janeway's correct choice was to let tuvix be? In trek, isn't spock considered one of the voices that define the series, the same man that commonly says - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one ignoring the crew completely, just looking at tuvok, neelix, and tuvix, the logical thing to do is to split them, as there is NO reason not to - there is no risk for them to stay together or split them, and the ONLY perspective we get is that of what could be considered the 'assailant' in this case - or as you mentioned, the sickness a mental sickness can make you more outgoing, more talkative, more friendly, more welcoming to people, and while we didn't see any negatives to the bond, tuvok is shown repeatedly to flirt with his emotions in the series, and always to the long term detrement to himself and those around him again, no matter how you look at it, even if you call it murder, it was the right choice - tuvok and neelix didn't have a say in the matter except through a lenses that had it's own agenda

[@conan2096]

if they didnt just hit the reset button each ep, they could have had serious psychological ramifications of this come up. this could be what made tuvok sick, and neelix could have become more rational and less annoying. they could have to deal with having 2 sets of conflicting memories.

[@edwardperkins1225]

Good point. The episode didn't properly hint at the idea that they could be the same 2 selves crammed in one different form. It comes off much more like Tuvicks is a unique life. When Spock was in McCoy's head in Star Trek 3 it was protrayed clearly as 2 selves in one body, though there's still the new Vulcan body which should be a self before having Spock transfered. Spock should be like Tuvicks after that though that Vulcan would be closer to a blank slate.

[@jhoughjr1]

Brilliant viewpoint.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@conan2096 that wold have been great.

[@SaviorMachine84]

At the end the day bringing back neelix and tuvok means executing someone. I also found it pretty jarring that everyone except the doctor were relatively ok with this.

[@Seastallion]

I never felt that the decision was an emotionally easy choice for Janeway. I felt like she WAS conflicted about it, but also resolute that both her crew members (one a very old friend) deserved to live their own lives, and secondly that Voyager's odds of success was considerably higher with the two lost crew as opposed to the one individual. Crew compliment is a very real thing, and frankly more can be accomplished with two individual bodies than just one, no matter how talented. Janeway had not only the responsibility to protect her crew, but also to see to the fulfillment of their mission. Honestly, Tuvok and Neelix contributed more to the likelihood of success than Tuvix could do alone. I think given the balance of Janeway's responsibilities, she made the logical choice. Notice, I didn't say "moral". I'm not sure there was a truly moral choice in this scenario. It was just unfortunate all the way around. It might be easy to condemn the Voyager crew for moral cowardice, but frankly this scenario is so far out of human experience, human morality has a difficult time even digesting this, much less coming to a clear-cut judgment. The story could have concluded as suggested in the video, that would have been nice. Unfortunately, that's not what they did.

[@marley7868]

that is a good point shame the show tries to sweep it under the rug you think anyone would wanna kill her over this maybe tuvok maybe neelix feel like those two might have a opinion on murder

[@kev3d]

There is a moral choice, a CLEAR moral choice: Leave Tuxiv alone. We don't grab people off the street to harvest their organs simply because the "needs of the many..." even for "old friends" in need of, say, a heart or liver. Sad as it may be, Tuvok and Neelix knew the risks of service. As for "logic", that went right out the window when the crew diverted valuable (and scarce) resources to operate the Holodeck, or for Tom to build his Delta Flyer (and enter a race, if I recall). In a life or death situation these are seriously illogical wastes of time and energy. Even in this one particular episode, it wasn't logical to have Neelix, who isn't a scientist, join the away team on an unknown planet.

[@Seastallion]

@@kev3d Clearly you ignored the 2nd paragraph in my comment. I never said it was the "moral" choice, just the logical one. Also, show narrative inconsistencies doesn't change the fact they were stranded at least 70 years from home, with crew numbers being a real concern for operational capability. The "magic" of replicator technology gives them near unlimited resources (so long as they have sufficient energy), but it never fixed their distance or crewing problems.

[@kev3d]

@@Seastallion I did read your second paragraph, in which you wrote: " I'm not sure there was a truly moral choice in this scenario." Clearly, there *IS* a moral choice. And it isn't difficult to understand if one has the slightest understanding of rights.

[@alanmark12345]

@@kev3d I think an opportunity was missed because I agree with you that it is clearly immoral to kill Tuvix. But what the episode lacked was selling that immoral action as necessary or desirable. A personal reason getting in the way of that clear moral principle, the idea that Janeway or others need Tuvok or Neelix in their lives would have made it more poignant or at least understandable. That's really what's missing in my opinion, a clearer justification of why this needs to be done as opposed to what unfortunately comes across as we just need to reset the next episode.

[@chidoman1595]

He begged for his life and no one moved an inch to help him. That always messed with me.

[@projektkobra2247]

That was badly written..but look at Uvalde...400...(FOUR HUNDRED!!!!) useless pig cops did NOTHING as CHILDREN were being shot and bleeding to death in agony. There's a century's worth of psychological studies right there...along with the Milgram Experiment or the Kitty Genovese case.

[@meris8486]

Especially given half the crew are Maquis

[@ryancarroll3957]

I like to think they were frozen with uncertainty rather than not giving a fuck. Otherwise you cant look at um same again

[@clintonwilcox4690]

@@ryancarroll3957 Indeed, but as Dave pointed out, that wouldn't explain why Chakotay didn't pull her aside and advocate for Tuvix' life.

[@Noemo2000]

I think it’s pretty clear. They WANTED Tuvok and Neelix more than Tuvix, even though they liked Tuvix. They maybe didn’t even realize it … but they just needed some cover to express it. Having Janeway be the heavy, all they had to do was be … obedient. Then it’s not them doing it. They’re just being good soldiers. I find them reprehensible because of their cowardice in NOT admitting what decision they were siding with more than a perceived inaction to prevent a wrong. Right or wrong isn’t really the point I’m making though … just that there is a choice before them and they chose one, they just didn’t want to admit it. Or do the work of enacting that choice.

[@09Ateam]

Janeway's action over the entire show prove that she was the most immoral of the Star Trek Captains, at least until NuTrek.

[@OmegaReaver]

Insaneway isn't just a catchy nickname...

[@GrandmasterFerg]

She was in the worst situation

[@OrbitalHUB]

You've got problems when women are in leadership positions...nine out of ten times.

[@bigben8502]

(guy who didn't watch Sisko chimpout against Eddington)

[@pt29999]

@@bigben8502 Why do people here keep bringing that up? This is a vid about Janeway, why does what Sisko did have anything to do with what Janeway did?

[@michaelt2974]

I don’t think Picard would have done what janeway did. He would have gotten some advice from data and then let tuvix live.

[@Alexander_Kale]

Depends on the situation. In that episode where Troi takes the leadership evaluation, they outright state that at some point, officers may be expected to order crewmen to their death. Not order them to take a risk, but to take an action that will one hundred percent result in their demise. They are allowed to do that, they are EXPECTED to do that. So yeah. Given the right circumstances, Picard would have done the same. One can only hope that the writer of that hypothetical episode would have more skill in pulling it off..

[@stephenschneekloth1535]

@@Alexander_Kale Big difference between having to order someone to their death to save the ship and ordering someone to be sacrificed to resurrect two already dead crewmembers. Picard would have never gone along with murdering Tuvix to bring back Neelix and Tuvok and if this was a Next Gen episode Tuvix would have made the choice himself or had some unavoidable circumstance force him to do so at the end.

[@Alexander_Kale]

@@stephenschneekloth1535 Janeway makes a somewhat credible argument to this regard. She needs Tuvok and Neelix both, and their absence endangers the ship more than Tuvix' presence helps it. She has a way to get them back, and this will unfortunately kill Tuvix. Iffy decision? Probably. But presumably inside what a captain is allowed to do and at least somewhat justified. I don't actually have a problem with the Call Janeway ultimately makes, my problem lies with how the writer chose to portray it happening. The only problem - though it is a bog one - now that I think about it, is that Tuvix as an individual is not actually a member of Starfleet, so Janeway might not have had jurisdiction over him. ^.^

[@Tokmurok]

​@@Alexander_Kale Every decision made by janeway is always so psychotically pragmatic she ignores morality for a perceived tactical advantage no matter the cost.

[@NativeNewMexican]

The appropriate solution was to restore Tuvak and Neelix then kill Neelix because his character was the most annoying in Star Trek since Wesley Crusher.

[@alsmith9853]

💯🤣🤣

[@OldMovieRob]

This was an excellent analysis, and one of my favorite Voyager episodes. I think what made the ultimate decision so much more complex was that Tuvix was a genuinely likable character (I thought) through the episode and left you pondering a lot of "what if's..." after the episode was over.

[@krixpop]

Did you read the other comments? With the already known and shown ST technology, they could easily keep all three of them Tuvok or Neelix and Tuvix. The "hard moral choice" is solely the result of the incompetence of those that wrote the episode.

[@boobah5643]

@@krixpop Except that they can't, because that's not how transporters work or they'd regularly keep backups of people. Or, in a darker view, you'd see Cardassians and Romulans using them as an interrogation tool.

[@krixpop]

@@boobah5643 William Thomas "Tom" Riker. Memory Alpha. Clone / Duplicate of W. Riker due to transporter *Accident* . Tom Riker was accepted in the Federation with full rights as a human being and as a citizen ! Thus in this *Accident* , Tuvik could have benefited from THAT experience which was well documented in Voyager's memory banks. Now that could have been indeed a truly interesting development and not the idiotic Cpt. Janeway out of the blue "hard core choice" because Writers' incompetence.

[@noelcalvert768]

@@krixpop All of this!

[@Unknown.NotRegistered]

Yes, and why not do transporter cloning? Remember Riker's twin? There was a third option that would have been far more entertaining. Get all 3, Tuvok, Neelix and Tuvix ongoing. That would have been a riot to watch.

[@projektkobra2247]

I often thought they should have kept that one "robot" character that Belana had saved and restored...would have filled in the 'Data" role better than that distractingly hawt 7of9. Also would have negated the awkwardness of Brent Spiner getting old and fat.

[@Nodux359]

One of the great ideas surely every second watcher had, but the writers never realised because Voyager.

[@prolamer7]

Maybe they feared it would stuck and like 20 Neelixes would stepped out :-DDD ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP, IREPEAT ABANDON SHIP NOW! THIS IS NOT A DRILL

[@AndyG73]

You beat me to the punch on that alternative ending. Whilst Dave's proposed one is the more satisfying from an ongoing plot standpoint, the other would be perfectly acceptable, especially as the portrayal of Tuvix by actor Tom Wright was excellent.

[@carlrood4457]

But, you'd just have 2 Tuvix's who didn't want to be separated. Just like both Rikers were equal individuals, both Tuvixes would want to live.

[@Dharzjinion]

If Tuvix had become unstable and sacrificed himself for the other guys... we wouldn't be talking about this episode today. It played out exactly like it needed to and yes, that also means the Crew has loaded guilt on their shoulders.

[@johntowers1213]

agreed 100%