Understanding Electric Vehicle Range Loss in Winter: Tips and Tricks

[@Jaw0lf]

Great for you to show this as I did the same on my Kia E Niro 4+ and realised that for a few miles loss, you can have everything running! This is the same thing in an ICE car, but when stationary and EV can still use the main battery to power things like the radio and not kill your 12v whilst not kicking out any fumes!

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Thanks for watching and your comments 👍

[@michaelgoode9555]

Good content JP. Putting the heater on in a VW ID.3 without a heat pump initially indicates around 10 miles lost but as the car interior warms this drops to around 6 miles. The heated seats and wheel don't even register but they must be using some juice from somewhere. I have grown quite fond of the heated seat on lowest level but SWMBO doesn't like seat heating at all.

[@Lewis_Standing]

I've recently had my Konas brakes fixed as they were sticking a bit. Efficiency at 70mph commute this am was 4.7m/kWh with a cross wind. Really impressive for 12c in autumn. With a heat pump fitted I rarely see more than 2-5% of total energy used for cabin heating. It can be worse on short journeys but on a long trip where you might be worried about range, it's no bother.

[@Timstravels01]

Very useful and informative as always.

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Thanks Tim 👍 😊

[@DefinitelyNotAGuru]

Great video 👍

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Thanks for watching 👍😎

[@grahamcastle8189]

Thank you, interesting comparison. Our zoe has a heat pump and you honestly don't notice any range degradation when using it. Living in the far north of Scotland we use the heater quite a lot 😂

[@stevehuddart1991]

As a refrigeration engineer, I’ve had some experience with heat pumps in buildings, or reverse cycle as it was referred to back in the day. They do indeed work as you say. However, you did mention they’d be more useful in Scandinavian countries. I’m not so sure. Heat pumps struggle once the outside air temperature falls much below zero, certainly -10c. They will work, but will struggle to overcome the temperature difference. The outdoor coil will be significantly below the outside temp, causing the coil to frost up. To overcome this, the system reverses cycle occasionally, and moves heat from inside to outside to defrost the coil. I suspect EVs bolster the heat pump in cold weather by also running the resistive heating, but only in temperatures below say -10c. Of course, I’m not saying heat pumps aren’t a good idea, just that they’re more useful in our climate than in Scandinavia.

[@mikesmith666]

I may he wrong but I believe the eNiro has both a PTC hester (for initial quick heating) and a heat pump so the 2kWh drain you were seeing was in fact the PTC and this will be much less once the heat pump takes over.

[@commuterbranchline8132]

When possible I park my Tesla Model Y inside my garage in wintertime. I pre conditioning my vehicle on off peak electricity overnight ready for departure every morning which helps enormously with efficiency.

[@Kiltoonie]

If I had a Tesla, I would tend to park it as far from my home as possible ;-)

[@pollywollydo]

The PTC heater in the old Teslas was 7 Kw🙀🙂

[@anthonybrown4874]

Interesting stuff johnathan will the app & OBD work with many other brands in particular vw up, Mii etc and Zoe as these are the more affordable options?

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Each manufacturer has different apps to control the heating remotely, without the need for a OBD dongle etc

[@anthonybrown4874]

@JonathanPorterfield I was meaning to fond the SOH figure as if I go shopping for an EV the SOH figure is a key indicator as to how well the car has been treated and it appears to be a bit of buyer beware no standard report available perhaps it should be mandatory as part of the entry to auction? To justify those buyers fees.

[@Chris-mh3vf]

The only winter tip I would say is use neat washer fluid in a Tesla as there is no residual heat soaking into the washer fluid, if it’s diluted it will freeze as it’s sprayed on the cold windscreen and then the washer jets will freeze up ( don’t ask me how I know )😊

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Good point 👍

[@chapmandu2]

Bear in mind that the heater will use up a lot more energy heating the car up from ambient to desired temp. Once it’s at the desired temp maintaining it consumes less. Another reason to pre heat whilst plugged into the mains before a long journey, although on a short journey it may be best to use energy from the battery if you can charge it cheaply overnight…

[@colinrobinson7869]

Have the same EV as yours and it will be 4 yrs old next mouth and yes the heat pump works a treat it's just a shame that manufacturers still charge a inflated price for said heat pump but when they manufacturer the core parts of the car the link parts must be their.

[@JonathanPorterfield]

True 👍

[@danielcolceru3840]

In my MG 4, standard range, it heats up very fast, it usually uses 1 kwh for heating the cabin, that is nothing for me because after I drive 35 km from home, I can charge the car at work, so no worries. I am in EV's for 3 years.

[@fugdefano]

will the key fob turn on the heater on the leaf mk1

[@JonathanPorterfield]

No , just the eNV200 !

[@cutebutnotthatfly]

@@JonathanPorterfield I was so excited for a minute! Thanks for confirming so I don't spend hours hitting keyfob buttons

[@SarahStuff-p5u]

My Chevy Bolt uses anywhere between 3-4kwh of battery/hr when keeping the Cabin a 76F when it is around 30F outside.

[@SarahStuff-p5u]

That 3-4kw for Cabin climate does include the idle load from entire car/hr, so your more efficent second example is 2.5kw/hr

[@austin2planks]

2kW is a big draw for heat pump system. Do you not think the PTC fired up there? Steady state heat pump operation would be a fraction of that

[@contra_plano]

my e-niro has a ptc

[@dennisharvey4499]

JP 0.5kW is 500W not 50W. This doesn't affect the point you are making but the draws are 10 times what you were saying. Very useful video though.

[@JonathanPorterfield]

I know , a slip of my tongue 👅 😋 thanks for watching and your comments 👍

[@KokowaSarunoKuniDesu]

But what about the effects of outside temperature on battery range, both the direct temperature effect on an(unshielded) battery, and also the fact that you're pushing denser air and have a higher effective CdA? I think this is why my Summer range of 160 miles (5 m/kwh)has already dropped to 120 (4m/kwh).

[@mattyb1418]

Isn't 0.1 kW a 100 watts? I think you may have given the wrong readings when starting to look at the Kia's usage. Also for me, the extra grand or so for a heat pump isn't worth the saving on energy, it'd take thousands of miles and many years to recoup the initial cost. Unless your car comes with one as standard, wouldn't worry about it.

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Hi Matty , yes , i had a brain fogg moment and got it wrong ! Yes re the extra cost of a Heat pump on new EVs , see my video on this when i compared 2 e niros , one with and one without a heat pump ! kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJqrnWxmrpJkh8ksi=-QQkocSTUchfV2qI

[@marekkedzierski8237]

Right, so all those scenes in Chicago with hundreds of EVs being towed to charging stations or waiting for hours to charge when last cold wave came never happened?

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Im talking about the UK ! My friends recently drove a nussan aryia from the North pole to South pole , so evs can cope in very cold temps , its often the drivers that need education!

[@wobby1516]

People tend to talk a lot of rubbish when it comes to EVs usually because they have no experience of them. I’ve an E Niro plus which does have the heatpump and it’s never let me down. I get 4.5 to 5 miles to the kWh and in winter about 3.8 to 4 miles per kWh. My range from full to around 20% is a very comfortable 230 miles before need to charge and even then I wouldn’t fully charge, perhaps 10-15 minutes before heading to my destination. There are those who will never believe in electric even though our trains and pretty much all the heavy factory machines work on electricity, not dinosaur juice. A friend the other day said he wouldn’t buy even a hybrid van because what happens if the battery failed after 7 year? I pointed out that a friend I know with a fiat auto van just paid £8000 for the auto select mechanism to be repair, not the gearbox, so nothing in this world last forever! However batteries do come with an 8 year warranty.

[@Ian-xq4rt]

I’m experimenting this winter, I’ve purchased a 500w portable heater which I can plug into my 3 pin socket in my Niro EV, it pumps out quite a bit of heat so I want to understand will it be enough! Oddly, noticed the Niro does not tell you energy usage from the 240v mains socket, will be interesting 😂. Another point to remember, if you have a heat pump, it’s best to leave it on and let it settle down, it will initially draw quite a bit of power but it does reduce over time.

[@DevAnubis]

That's definitely going to be less enervt efficient than using the heat-pump, and probably less efficient than the PTC heatet too as its go to run the DC ooerr through thr inverter to get to 230v. Unless you mean you're giing to be heating something outside the vehicle with this heater on a lead?

[@markhowells-prescott9598]

Good evening Johnathan hope you and your lovely wife are well kind regards mark

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Hi Mark , yes we're both well , best regards Jp 😊

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

Aren't most of the auxiliary functions run from the 12v hence not having much effect

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Yes , but aux battery has top be topped up from the main traction battery too

[@Kiltoonie]

Basically, just drive it like you stole it shall be the whole of the law. You only ever need to know this stuff in a very tight space, and that is YOUR fault for failing to plan ahead. Long distance winter driving in an old EV is still OK, but 55 mph is a lot better than 75 mph - and THAT matters when everything goes mental. Also bear in mind that the older Leafs have a nasty habit of overheating after three or four rapid charges and start to behave like total d*cks by slowing it all down -

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Yes 'but' my point was to silence the 'man down the pub' who talks rubbish !

[@Kiltoonie]

@@JonathanPorterfield I know a few like that, and frankly, their ears are closed with heavy oil anyway, but good luck ;-)

[@MichaelWilliams-mo1vv]

One important thing doesn't the Kia have a much larger battery than the Nissan ev van? Also it's later technology and more efficient. You would be better off comparing more similar vehicles one without heat pump and one with.

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Check out the video at the end of this one where i compare 2 64kWh e niros , one with and one without the heat pump

[@MichaelWilliams-mo1vv]

​@JonathanPorterfield thanks I'll watch that video.

[@trickshotish]

You should get some nutters coming on soon telling you the car will blow up 😂

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Bring it on 😊😅

[@trickshotish]

@@JonathanPorterfield Must be terrible for formula E where the cars travel round the track @ 200mph and being set on fire every lap lol 😂 you would think they would know better .. Good luck kids safe driving …

[@GrahamNewman-mq7gr]

You do NOT understand kw / watts. 1000 w = 1 kw. Therefor some of your comments are incorrect :23 kw == 230 watts not a insignificant amount of currant draw. No matter how you heat a car it takes the same amount of energy to raise th temp per degree. Lithium Batteries take a real hit in very cold weather. Probably not too much in our winter . Nothern Europe a diferent story, EV manufacturers do not want to tell you the % drop per degree of temp. There is a graph.

[@Lewis_Standing]

My 64kwh battery would take 280 hours to drain powering a heater at 230 watts. Insignificant might seem appropriate. Lithium batteries do perform worse in colder weather, because their internal resistance rises as the solvent gets more vicious and the lithium ions find it harder to move. You do see a range loss. EV database is a fantastic resource for every car on sale in the EU and UK, and has range estimates at -10c , 20+c and highway speeds or tootling around town. It's not hidden information.

[@GrahamNewman-mq7gr]

@Lewis_Standing Yes but add in all the other bits + the temperature. Soon becomes "A drain factor". Still NO ANSWER to what you do on a winters night stuck on motorway with a low battery. I have 5Ltrs. In boot in my car .

[@solidus784]

Well actually🤓

[@devonbikefilms]

@@GrahamNewman-mq7gr There is an easy answer, keep an eye on what you’re using and remaining range and stop to charge before it gets critical. A bit like not passing a petrol station with the fuel gauge on red. From a 3 years in EV user.

[@stephenoates3746]

ICE cars are 15% less efficient in winter too

[@renewablerecon]

Erm 0.3kw is 300w not 30w

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Slip of the tongue, but still little draw from the stored energy.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@JonathanPorterfieldcould you redub or add correction asterisks?

[@barriewilliams4526]

I understand them only too well, that's why I own a Toyota Petrol Powered Car😉

[@snodgee]

I couldn’t see me getting a EV in the near future as I never let my car go below 250 miles left that’s when I fill up

[@JonathanPorterfield]

Oh boy ! Next you'll be saying you do this so you dont get the 'dregs' from the bottom of your fuel tank !

[@snodgee]

@ I’ve been driving for 48 years and when the fuel gage gets down to half way between half and quarter of a tank I fill it up always have nothing to do with the dregs

[@JonathanPorterfield]

@snodgee so you've limited range then ?

[@snodgee]

@@JonathanPorterfield no not really at least 550 miles as I get at least 750 to a tank

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

Given your 48 years of driving you probably aren't doing 500 mile stints, and might actually enjoy half hour stops every 200 or so miles?