Responding to "Halo SAVED First Person Shooters"

[@underthemayo]

*** quick correction. I showed gears of war in a clip mentioning two weapon limit cover shooters when I originally intended to switch that out for uncharted there. My bad. Though two main weapons and a side arm isnt much of a difference. Just take that clip to be "third person shooters in general." Shredded Nerd's video kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKXPc51om5ukiqM DJ Peach Cobbler's video kzbin.info/www/bejne/fabXoGCjicmibMk My original Halo video kzbin.info/www/bejne/qp7HhIxpfrlrarM BRAWLER and Mayo merch here! teespring.com/stores/underthemayo Support me on Patreon. patreon.com/underthemayo KZbin Memberships to my channel now available, click the "Join" button. Follow me on Twitch at twitch.tv/underthemayo

[@spiritupgrades]

Thoughts on splitgate? Also fish

[@ThatKoukiZ31]

That's actually a great point. As a pc gamer I did not like halo at all and couldn't get into it. But I played gears of War several times at a friend's place and loved it! It was finally a great overall package I enjoyed on console. It innovated and pushed the genre instead of copying and it worked great.

[@apollo849]

Great response video. I love the classics like DOOM and Quake but Halo is probably my favourite FPS franchise of all time. I love the multiplayer, gameplay, music, enemy design and overall presentation. I do think post-Wolfenstein 3D/DOOM many FPS were becoming a bit derivative of the classic FPS design. E.g. Heretic, Hexen, the DOOM sequels, Unreal Tournament and Quake were all going for the same style of gameplay. Games like Halo and Counterstrike really stood out because they tried something different and people took to it. Regardless of whether we think the changes were better or worse, I think this was a factor. In my mind it's not a case of better or worse, those games are just a different type of shooter. Counter Strike's pillars of design are completely different to a game like DOOM. The 2 gun weapon restrictions make weapon choice a meaningful decision as opposed to giving the player an entire arsenal to carry at all times, and regenerating health in Halo paired with a smaller health pool was introduced to make you spend less time scavenging for health packs and to get you quickly back into the fight. All these approaches have distinct gameplay advantages depending on what you're trying to achieve.

[@ThatGuy-ky2yf]

@@apollo849 I think the greater discussion of modern fps and 3rd person shooter games is leading to a positive influence in gaming overall. It's clear Id software views UTM in a really positive encouraging light and games like Ultrakill and Dusk are bringing back old school FPS styles that aren't as common as they used to be but with some nice modern touches. All thanks to this discussion, the new Doom Games and the general fatigue with the Cod/Far Cry style of shooters of the 2010s.

[@juliogarciabarrena1311]

Mayo, have you tried Ultrakill? I think you would love It...

[@ShreddedNerd]

It's interesting hearing this point of view and I can certainly understand how seeing the rise of negative trends can be disappointing. In retrospect I probably could have split the video into two separate responses, but I felt I could use the two videos as a catalyst for a broader discussion on Halo's place in the industry. It seems we agree on a number of things, which is good. I still feel that Halo has a strained relationship with games like Call of Duty and cover shooters. Many of these generic console cover shooters also had elements such as sprint, ADS, hitmarkers etc. which conflicted with Halo. All in all, thanks for taking the time to respond to my video.

[@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter]

Good man, good men

[@beanslinger2]

awesome :)

[@adiveler]

By sprint element, you mean that you can either run or shoot, but not both. Right?

[@underthemayo]

Cheers mate looking forward to a fun chat. I think both our audiences will get a kick out of it.

[@ShreddedNerd]

@@adiveler yes

[@mitsuhed]

How every response should be on KZbin. Respectful and to the point.

[@DowuerSup]

No? They all should have 30 ads, talk about their sponsor for 7 minutes then talk about random things for another 10 minutes and finally 2 minutes of the actual response.

[@baalgar5530]

UnderTheMayo. Respectful and to the point.

[@giga854]

Except for content cop

[@DJPeachCobbler]

He called me a soyboy :(

[@underthemayo]

Well, I like to cover my sushi rolls in soy so I'm one too.

[@megashark1013]

I mean, the whole idea that soy makes you less masculine is a myth.

[@wichiewamirez5599]

@@megashark1013 its not

[@WilliamSyler]

@@wichiewamirez5599 Depends on your definition of "masculine". Testosterone is not the only thing you need to be masculine.

[@TheRedCap30]

@@wichiewamirez5599 go back to 4chan lol

[@kaustubhmurudkar2422]

Two people having different opinions and still respecting each other? That's a rare find

[@renlevy411]

This is literally the only wholesome response video in the entire planet. This is the most original piece of media i have ever seen in the world.

[@ProsecutorValentine]

Well, there's no need for opposition here. Perhaps and certainly somwhere else, but not the matter at hand.

[@renlevy411]

@@justrandomstuff6828 I mean gaming community have always been toxic. Assassin Creed community is completely incomparable to Mordhau, Eve Online, and other Multiplayer community

[@raam726]

Disagree. That's not rare, that's pretty common. In fact, as common as air.

[@TheSinlessAssassin]

I mean MAYO was respectful, but Shredded threw in too many unnecessary ad-hominem attacks in there which I guess is fine for entertainment value and a response to the EMOTIONAL DAMAGE it must've caused him lol, but yeah it weakens the debate when you gotta do that. GOOD POINTS from both gents though, not gonna deny that.

[@adove1723]

When I say I hate Halo that doesn't make it bad! -Sun Tzu

[@ridho39]

You can't say shit on internet! -Sun Tzu

[@adove1723]

@@ridho39 Stating that your opinion is no*Fact* is no shit bro. -Wu Qi

[@ZyloPhone]

Redditor

[@gigastangli2460]

@@ZyloPhone At least honest

[@HyperNebula]

“Your opinion is gay” Liu Bei

[@quackodemon9822]

Halo definitely had a big influence on a lot of FPS games but neither "saved" or "ruined" it. Conclusion: Halo is a game.

[@heftymagic4814]

definitely saved

[@skylertremblay3395]

i would even go as far as to say halo is a video game

[@quackodemon9822]

@@skylertremblay3395 Damn bro slow down

[@Excalibur5k]

@@skylertremblay3395 a recreational activity perhaps

[@REALMARCHINADER]

@@Excalibur5k And one that is played and viewed in a digital display.

[@Jarekthegamingdragon]

I disagree with the notion that Halo changed PC FPS at the time. During Halo's reign, PC games were still largely separate due to consoles still being so much weaker. We had Half-Life, Crysis, Doom 3, Far Cry, just countless PC games that weren't influenced by Halo at all. I don't think this stuff started happening until COD4. The mid-late 360 era saw so many bad console to PC ports and just endless bad cod clones. Halo didn't really have this same effect. Like, resistance 2 didn't adopt regen health and 2 weapons because of halo, that was because it came out a year after COD4. Halo had been out for 7 years at that point, if it was halo's influence then resistance 1 would have also had that. I think what you actually mean to say is that Halo had the same effect as Half-Life. Devs learned the wrong things from these games. These games on their own are not problems, but when a dev sees half-life and thinks "okay, sure we can make a linear scripted fps title with absolutely no freedom to the player and it's basically a movie" then half-life becomes a problem under that mindset. Combine a mixture of half-life and halo and you basically get cod clones. When a dev learns the right things from Half-Life, you end up with Resistance 3 instead. That all said I disagree even harder with the notion that halo saved FPS games. As mentioned there were so many good, iconic FPS titles of the time. If halo didn't exist, FPS would still be doing very well.

[@averagedoometernalenjoyer5990]

:oo Holy crap, hi Jarek! I didn't expect you to see Under The Mayo's video :D

[@beetheimmortal]

This. Halo isn't really responsible for anything, and isn't even comparable to COD in any way, basically.

[@chaTzon]

Yeah, halo changed nothing, only the lifes of xbox players but in no way pc players, afaik halo had a unbelievable hype then came out and it sucked on pc...but it survived as it got better on xbox.

[@milkycannon444]

Resistance 2 wasnt made in a year....its much more realistic to say Halo had an influence on it compared to cod 4. They simply did not make the game in a year or implement massive design changes like that within 12 months....just straight up wrong. You guys take this as halo being bad, Bungie made a great game...but as we seen with battle royals publishers will jump on any hype train they can.

[@eldennub]

Sounds more like COD ruined FPS

[@malxire7084]

Even though I don’t always agree with Mayo’s opinions, I will always respect him for standing by his claims no matter how much hate he gets

[@PanMan47]

Agreed

[@ThatKoukiZ31]

Its because people (idiots) miss the point and get mad

[@heftymagic4814]

thats not rlly what he did here though, he got disproven in shredded nerds video, and basically chose a number of rather insignificant things that were on the side to take a stance on instead

[@343ishill]

@@heftymagic4814 Nah Mayo had a subjective take, while Shredded had an objective take It was a response video to clarify things not to disprove Shredded, that's why he clarifies "insignificant" things on his stance. He merely adding unto Shredded vid not opposing it

[@dr.thrustfist8805]

I love Doom, I love Halo, just like Doom there's a fun zone in halo and once you find it, Halo is God tier.

[@EmeraldCoasttt]

Weapons, grenades, melee, the holy trinity

[@quackodemon9822]

Getting splatter kills with traffic cones is the true fun zone in Halo

[@LauncherSpiderMk7]

Hell yeah. I know Mayo has no interest in multiplayer, so I don't blame him for not liking Halo that much. Multiplayer is where the most fun is in Halo, especially if you have a group of friends to try out wacky custom game modes.

[@soulivan827]

I love BTB in Halo. Vehicle are so much fun.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

I argue that halo's fun zone is even deeper than doom's, at least in Combat Evolved

[@FailoReachForge]

I was born in 1998. I first played Halo 2 in 2006 when I was 8 years old round my cousins house. When Halo 3 came out it took a full year of begging from my brother and me to get an xbox 360. I've played Halo games for the majority of my life at this point. When I saw your first video originally, it gave me a great insight into other people's experience. I obviously felt different emotionally to your experience but loved hearing a different side of the coin. When this video popped up I went to watch both Shredded and the other guys he's replying to video before watching this. And strangely I don't think I disagree with any of you. Halo was such a unique phenomenon, I can see how people can experience it from a these different angles. While I disagree somewhat with some statements made, I largely enjoyed listening to all of your perspectives. These are the discussions about games I want to see, not everyone just regurgitating the same reddit or youtube circlejerk talking points.

[@noobguy9973]

Bro how can you be boring in 1996? You weren't even born yet!

[@FailoReachForge]

@@noobguy9973 Autocorrect lol meant born.

[@noobguy9973]

@@FailoReachForge I know ım just joking

[@underthemayo]

Yeah I think both ends of our discussion contribute something. That's why I'm trying to set up a conversation soon.

[@itzmemd]

​@@underthemayo Will the conversation be recorded for stream/vid, or is it strictly privatized?

[@mdexterc2894]

14:23 Cover mechanics are basically game equivalent to triplets in rap ketchup in food. They're not bad, but are everywhere and often not even needed in certain dishes

[@fazzeai]

"And you know what? I don't want every game to feel like Doom either! ...but Doom Eternal, on the other hand..."

[@underthemayo]

Game wise, no. Philosophy, yes ;)

[@Dosnmeda]

Back in the early 2000s Devs and Publishers were afraid of piracy on PC, and when Halo proved consoles to be a viable platform for Shooters, everyone followed. Hence consoles became the lead platform for shooters and controls and gameplay had to be adjusted. You also still don't really take into consideration the effect Half Life had on Shooters - for example, Doom 3 tried to be like Half Life, not Halo. Lastly, if you play Halo on hard you still won't get far if you hide behind cover. The shield is merely a mechanic that allows you to experiment different tactics without facing immediate punishment - as you would in a traditional PC shooter, where you'd spam the quicksave button instead.

[@badgasaurus4211]

Yeah if you camp cover you get grenaded out very quickly or enemies box you in. The shield is there to promote active not passive play

[@infinitedeath1384]

Not true. I use cover quite often when I play halo. In halo 5, where the gameplay is faster, and the enemies are faster, cover was essential. I beat the whole thing on legendary solo, and I got the harbinger achievement. You unlock the harbinger achievement by beating the second last mission on legendary, without the whole fireteam dying, or restarting a checkpoint.

[@infinitedeath1384]

@1993DJC Maybe, but I play the original halo games the same way, and do just fine on legendary.

[@torb-no]

Its game designers responsibility to actually take on mechanics that work well for their game. Designers taking in mechanics that don't fit their game just because it's in a different game that's popular, well, that's the game designers fault, not the game they took that from. Halo didn't ruin first person shooters, people blindly taking its mechanics where it had no business being did that. Interestingly, I'd argue Halo itself made that exact same mistake with Reach, 4 and especially 5: Guardians. Anyway, thanks for another thoughtful video!

[@EthanTheDinoNerd]

Thank you f*cking finally

[@nubbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbin]

Id say 5 is the most unique halo game and in my opinion the most fun esport game to watch which is probably a hot take

[@torb-no]

@@nubbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbin Saying it's the most unique Halo game is another way of saying it's the Halo game the least like other Halos… the least Halo game. Take together with your comment I think it's reasonable to describe Halo 5 as a very good video game, but not a good Halo game. Hopefully Halo Infinite takes all the good of all the Halos that camera before, including Halo 5. I know that Halo 5 fan Shyaway was on a advice team giving feedback shaping the design of Halo Infinite so there's definitely going to be some H5 DNA there.

[@nubbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbin]

@@torb-no yeah i like halo 5 and i think the core gameplay is underrated and overshadowed by the rest of the game being terrible

[@jacksonx7251]

The main issue I take with your old video and is still present in this one is that you keep saying that "Halo ruined FPS" when it was the improper implementation of Halo's mechanics that led to a lot of uninteresting cover shooters. In Halo the mechanics that were most likely added for console players were built around, while other games just lifted them and used them in ways that were never intended. I feel the blame lies more on COD since it was an extremely popular game that lifted Halo's mechanics. I feel we shouldn't blame the game that built its game to work in tandem with mechanics that were most likely designed for console, but rather the game that popularized them being used incorrectly. Overall a great video and had some good clarification. Now we just need a Master Chief skin in Eternal and a Doom Slayer skin in Infinite ❤

[@JZStudiosonline]

He keeps doubling down on Halo like it was the first successful FPS. Or at least a console FPS, which is just blatantly untrue. Everything he blames Halo for was in dozens of popular games prior to Halo. The biggest thing Halo did was bring FPS to console with a functional control scheme and online play/systems. I will 100% blame COD, which is and was way more popular than it should've ever been, and itself is a ripoff of Medal of Honor. Which also was immensely popular and released before Halo. It actually seems really dumb to blame Halo when again, multiple franchises with the features he dislikes were popular before Halo existed, and there's NEVER been a Halo clone. Not even anything remotely close. Look at COD and it's clones.

[@ludophobi4986]

I mean, Halo did jumpstart modern day fps, which I love. Personally, it's about your taste in video games, but no one can deny how iconic halo is

[@comradeskipper5232]

well said

[@worldstrongestbillionaire]

Modern FPS games took the bad parts of Halo I can’t name a game that feels like Halo

[@alphabroncotwozero392]

Half Life, Doom and Halo are the godfathers of FPS.

[@stevekjr9563]

Halo isn't any more modern than Counter Strike/Half-Life or Doom 64.

[@ludophobi4986]

@@stevekjr9563 yah but it's more popular than csgo. also, d64 is not modern...

[@trungnguyennguyentri1975]

Doom eternal ruined first person shooter for me. Now every other modern fps game just feel so lame in comparison.

[@brandonnunez6566]

Good

[@ThatGuy-ky2yf]

@@martinchase8995 Based

[@Spokenword]

play ultrakill

[@ThatGuy-ky2yf]

@@Spokenword Check out Dread Templar too. Early access atm too but it's shaping up to be a very solid shooter.

[@ThDragoomba]

Yea exactly. Every modern fps is so basic in gunplay, no innovation at all just press left trigger to aim and right trigger to shoot. Even Halo infinite looks like that

[@ohno5507]

I think the main issue with your position is you're explicitly blaming Halo. While Halo was the cause for the FPS genre taking a terrible turn, I think more blame can be put on CoD, as we had an entire generation of modern military shooters that were all trying to be CoD. Even in the time of Halo 1 and 2, there were decent console shooters that didn't follow all the trends it set, just mimicked the refined control scheme. I think fault should more be put on lack of creativity in the industry. To me it's like saying Resident Evil 4 ruined the RE franchise, when in reality it was Capcom and the RE team not understanding all the nuanced design choices that made RE4 so special and good. Their take away was "more action set pieces" without making good gameplay that fit the series. Likewise, a lot of publishers and dev teams saw CoD 4, and all they took away from it was "well obviously we just modern military setting with ADS and sprint", and just tried to pump that out.

[@hyperx72]

Recharging health done to keep the pace of gameplay up and to reduce backtracking "CONSOLE" Reduced movement speed to allow for vehicle implementation. "CONSOLE" 2 weapon limit to make your weapon choice more tactical as opposed to just giving you an arsenal. "CONSOLE" Controls that don't suck ass "HALO" (But in a negative context because something something natural order). The rise of military shooters coinciding with a rising popularity of dark and/or realistic elements in entertainment media "HALO" "CONSOLE"

[@ratman2580]

Halo 1 isn't slow though, you're just on the largest campaign map in the game walking around instead of using the vehicle they gave you.

[@ChillMurray7]

I feel like Call of Duty is more to blame than Halo for how the FPS space is at the moment, thats why im glad Vangaurd failed like gangbusters lmao.

[@altyresloweffortdump9138]

Here’s my take on this. Halo didn’t directly influence the new wave of first person shooters, because if the other developers were creative enough to create their own unique experiences, then halo wouldn’t have as much of an overall influence on the FPS genre. Bungie was a talented company that eventually left Halo and Microsoft to work on Destiny with Activision, with them eventually ditching that company as well. 343 Industries took the helm for Halo, and seeing them in comparison to Bungie is like night and day. While Bungie indirectly innovated the succeeding generation of first person shooters, 343 Industries took inspiration from other first person shooters such as Call of Duty, Battlefield and eventually Destiny with their design on Halo, thus alienating their already existing fanbase with mechanics and themes borrowed from other games. It’s almost ironic that Halo eventually became the first person shooters that it inspired, but if there’s anything to take from this, it’s that it’s all in the hands of the developers whether they want to copy another game’s success or not, and usually it’s not the other game’s fault.

[@infinitedeath1384]

In a way, I'm glad they left to work on destiny. I've been playing a ton of destiny 2 recently, and it's quite fun.

[@altyresloweffortdump9138]

@@infinitedeath1384 eh, I tried it. Wasn’t my thing. I personally don’t like it when multiplayer is forced onto me

[@infinitedeath1384]

@@altyresloweffortdump9138 Well actually, you can play the game solo. Do you play on console or pc? There are loopholes you can use to work around the system, and load in all by yourself.

[@altyresloweffortdump9138]

@@infinitedeath1384 PC

[@infinitedeath1384]

@@altyresloweffortdump9138 KZbin how to use destiny 2 solo enabler. Pretty easy to use thankfully.

[@minecraftotalwar]

Your feeling towards halo while growing up is what I feel towards Dark Souls. I want my action games back, enough of soulslike

[@Spokenword]

This actually a really good comparison

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Ah yes the return of cheap half baked action games with no depth lmao. Souls didnt kill action games, its that western action games are typically awful and japanese games were dying in the 360 era. Now that DMC is back all is well

[@minecraftotalwar]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 I meant Bayonetta and DmC, and just one game doesn’t mean it’s back

[@fuckso2342]

This is similar to everyone copying free flow combat in the early 2010s because of the Batman Arkham games.

[@infinitedeath1384]

Souls is it's own genre. There are plenty of action hack and slash games, and dark souls is not a hack and slash title. It's a dark fantasy action rpg. If you want an action game, there's dmc5.

[@reubenzuidema6656]

You can have any opinion you want about halo but I'm pretty sure that when the devs of haze said they were gonna be the 'halo killer' we all laughed our asses off

[@JohnWilliams-wl9px]

The devs didn’t say that and in fact hated the marketing claiming was saying that

[@reubenzuidema6656]

@@JohnWilliams-wl9px wel if that's true then I worked on me

[@fatalmokrane]

Cant we live in a World where we Can enjoy both Doom and Halo ?

[@Jackfromshack]

easily

[@fatalmokrane]

@@Jackfromshack ikr ?

[@quackodemon9822]

I live in that world idk

[@LauncherSpiderMk7]

Clearly. I doubt anyone dropped Halo just because Mayo said he didn't like it.

[@typickoopakid]

Ever since 2016 Doom became my other favorite shooter right next to Halo

[@alanlee67]

The only thing I disagree with is that doom eternal is mechanically similar to the original doom. Original doom was a mechanically simple shooter that focused more on environment and exploration. You could easily play the game with just the shotgun on the hardest difficulty...barring ammo. The new doom games are moreso focused on the shooting. The level designs are very poor from an exploration standpoint with focus only on building shootout arenas.

[@fuckso2342]

Exploration is still fun in the Doom reboots but the levels are less maze like. Also while the reboots are very mechanically different they capture the spirt of what Doom is. That's what he meant.

[@michiganjack1337]

There is a reason why I’ve always preferred Halo CE and Halo Reach. The removal of the health bar for the regeneration was not a good thing for which I did not enjoy.

[@infinitedeath1384]

Nah the health bar sucked. If you play on legendary or heroic like I have, a charge shot from a plasma pistol will instantly kill you, if you are on 1 bar of health left.

[@Cameron088]

Fun fact Reach did have a small amount of regenerating health. And you only had it if you were playing as a Elite.

[@therealsunnyk]

I feel ya mayo. You're not saying Korn sucks, you're saying that Korn created Nu Metal and maybe if there was no Korn, then music would be better overall, even though they were objectively a great band.

[@underthemayo]

Wouldn't say Korn invented it. But they definitely popularized it.

[@tipnsunny2107]

Halo vs Doom style Halo on a high difficulty: "Stop rushing into the enemies. Find some cover and strategize." Doom on a high difficulty: "You need to play faster. They're coming for ya."

[@Cameron088]

Actually, this really isn't true. Halo CAN and DOES have the same thing as Doom. If you KNOW how to play Halo, Halo can be just as fast a Doom

[@tipnsunny2107]

​@@Cameron088 I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Play Doom on Nightmare difficulty and then play any Halo game on Legendary. Tell me if those games play similarly. My prediction: In Halo, you will be punished for coming out of cover too recklessly and will need to hang back to take out most enemy crowds. In Doom, you will be emphasized to keep moving out of cover and around the map as to not get boxed in by the enemy crowds.

[@Cameron088]

@@tipnsunny2107 I've played both Halo, you ARENT pushed for cover unless you play like a idiot. I've beaten EVERY Halo game Legendary solo. You can run and gun in Halo just as efficiently as Doom. The difference is, you don't have a overpowered super shotty with a chainsaw to get ammo asap

[@Cameron088]

@@tipnsunny2107 The only Halo game you can't run and gun in is Halo 2, but that's because Bungie dun fucked it up

[@cas343]

@@Cameron088 Halo 2 and 4 definitely punish you for not playing at long range. Halo CE and 3 are somewhat better because the shotgun/sword are strong, the assault rifle exists, and you have things like overshields to help.

[@pradeepdungdung4379]

I'd recommend people watch Noodle's video on Halo and Kirk Collects' video on Boomer Shooters to understand the history of FPS

[@KnoxCarbon]

Honestly the game I blame the most for popularizing generic pop and stop cover shooters is Call of Duty 2.

[@beetheimmortal]

I still have to say what I said almost a year ago now, on the original video. Halo WAS NOT the reason for what happened. If you (or anyone) want to blame a certain title, blame COD. Halo is nothing compared to COD in sales, and all the influence people hate come from COD, NOT Halo. I say this as an avid PC gamer who loves fast games much more than Halo (and I can't play COD at all because I fucking hate it). In fact, COD is the progenitor of 'copying Halo without understanding what made it good'. Fuck COD.

[@masterdeity3400]

You literally proved his point. CoD came from Halo.

[@kobi7955]

@@masterdeity3400 CoD came from Medal of Honour, they didn't take anything from Halo except for health regeneration after Halo 2 came out.

[@Shendowa]

This video is a testament as to why I’m subscribed to Mayo. His videos are straight to the point with such a fair balance of constructive criticism and opinion. Halo is probably my all time favorite FPS (simply due to nostalgia) but over time, I’ve learned to appreciate and fall in love with games like DOOM Eternal. Everyone is right to their own opinion and I honestly couldn’t congratulate y’all enough on how well you guys are handling this situation.

[@jub8951]

Literally started hating doom eternal because of this guy sometimes he can ruin things

[@heftymagic4814]

his first video on halo was an utter failure though, glad shredded nerd came and put him in his place, now mayos acting like a submissive puppy with his belly up lmfao

[@fuckso2342]

@@heftymagic4814 His first video while a bit of clickbait title wasn't a failure at all. Many PC arena shooters fans shared his opinion that it was a boring slow clunky console shooter. While it was an impressive console shooter on PC Unreal Tournament and Quake smoked it in terms of movement, speed and general combat.

[@XxHUNT3RN4T0RxX]

Bungie revolutionized first person shooters. id Software created it.

[@heftymagic4814]

This video is the embodiment of "I got ripped apart and now am picking at side crumbs for my talking points"

[@averyshepherd5902]

Not at all. He's just clarifying what he meant, not trying to make a comeback after someone burned him

[@alexlxpg4985]

@@averyshepherd5902 Yeah this guy leaves all sorts of troll comments in this video. Looking down any positive stuff of the video when shredded and mayo came to proper acknowledgement here.

[@abdulrahaman0157]

Wait. He has his own opinion and still respects others? This is...

[@heliax9924]

to be honest the only reason your video is confusing is because on the title it says halo RUINED first person shooters if you had put why i FEEL like halo ruined first person shooters everyone wouldnt be confused EDIT also yeah i understand that halo pretty much made devs ruin the game but it gave birth to other good games too

[@badgasaurus4211]

He worded it incorrectly period to get clicks. It wasn’t halo, it was copycats

[@Spokenword]

It's obviously his opinion. You need that clarified?

[@flokivalhalla1439]

@@Spokenword it's called clickbait.

[@Spokenword]

@@flokivalhalla1439 You need every youtube video that expresses the autors opinion to have disclaimers everywhere that it's an opinion? Of course it's an opinion, what else it would be?

[@flokivalhalla1439]

@@Spokenword Why are you acting dumb? Everyone knows it's his opinion and nobody is saying it it's not. The thing is, his videos have intentionally over the top titles as a strategy to get more clicks. It's as simple as that and I was merely commenting on that aspect of his content.

[@oldsif645]

I dont understand how some people blame a game for what came after, its not halo's fault that devs chose to make similar style games.

[@cam0227]

Me: getting ready for school Mayo: here's an upload

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

MOOD

[@cam0227]

@@Ismael-kc3ry DOOM

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

@@cam0227 MOOD Eternal

[@cam0227]

@@Ismael-kc3ry MOOD (2016)

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

@@cam0227 Brutal Mood

[@nestorgodinez3004]

People always seem to forget that what made both half life and Halo games interesting was that every one was making this fast paced PC shooters and mostly bad ones at that, even ID and other major players in the genre. It was their fault that the style was dying and not totally Halo's fault.

[@RacingSnails64]

As a Doom fan thanks to 2016, I am astonished by the quality of the originals, how similar their raw gameplay is to the reboots despite such a gap in graphical capabilities. They're fast and frantic, encouraging dodging and juggling through all your guns to balance your ammo pools, utilizing the properties of certain guns against certain enemies like the chaingun's stunlocking and rocket launcher's splash damage to clear fodder. I can't believe I never touched the old Dooms sooner. Everything I love about 2016 and Eternal? It's all here and addicting as ever. If I was a old school Doom fan first, I'm almost entirely certain the modern Doom games would please me to no end. They are one of if not THE most faithful game reboots out there. (And as a bonus, they're not even really reboots, they're technically sequels! Now THAT'S having your cake and eating it too!)

[@ananon5771]

now play megawads

[@kobi7955]

New Doom is very different to the classics

[@ducko1988]

What you mean is ‘ unoriginal copy cat developers ruining the type of fps I enjoy’

[@fwamable394]

If halo didn’t exist the would have nothing to copy.

[@ducko1988]

@@fwamable394 my point still stands, be original make your own thing. It’s not bungies fault developers are lazy copycats

[@fwamable394]

@@ducko1988 yeah i agree, with the originality stuff. However those clones happened because of halo. so indirectly halo brung the downfall of fast passed quake, unreal,doom style shooter because it showed that slow shooters with a 2 weapon limit and recharging health on console could be far more successful than those fast past shooter. This led to said clones. Like for example “nukes ruined war” the USA showed that nukes were very powerful and could end wars. Sure there were exceptions but why invest in original fast warfare tactics when you can just nuke the other country. It’s the success of nukes which led other military’s to adopts nukes and not original warfare tactics. This took way too long to write lmao. I hop you understand it a bit more and that this was clear.

[@ducko1988]

@@fwamable394 I get your point dude, just shows developers shouldn’t follow trends in the hope of easy success. I’m a fan of fast shooters too

[@saisameer8771]

@@fwamable394 Not really. The medal of honor series inspired call of duty which went on to influence the industry to this day.

[@theviewerofthegolden270]

17:17 ngl kinda disappointed that he didn't finish with "(...)work together to resooooolve this problem in a way that benefits us both"

[@ThatKoukiZ31]

Like I said on Mayos other video I got out of pc gaming because nothing was engaging enough to keep me active as I became an adult. After thousands of hours in Counter strike nothing new compared. I got into cars and actually driving them on track so I left gaming. Halo suited a lot of people, but the problem is brain dead developers (or the heads of their studios) copied halos regen and weapon limits and didn't tailor their entire game to suit it. So instead of having 2 types of FPS games you just had halo and bad halo. Instead of quake like and halo like games to keep pc gamers and consol gamers happy or people that prefer each type.

[@MichaelSecretTech]

The comments: "You just want all games to play like Doom"

[@mmaldonadoofficial]

15:00 This point was kind of redundant. Doom Eternal is literally a different game. Whether its completely different, or Doom in the first place is subjective.

[@5000Seabass]

Resistance two was not based off of Halo lmao. They were piggy backing off of CoD

[@TurokRevolution]

While I understand the point of your video as a whole, there are some things I disagree with. Firstly, I don't think the changes from Resistance 1 to 2 were inspired by Halo. Resistance 2 was running with the Call of Duty trend, there is nothing that feels like Halo about Resistance 2. I even feel that gameplay-wise Resistance 1 felt more like Halo CE to me than anything else. Second, you said AVP2 is a fast game. Sorry, what? The movement speed in that game is very slow (except when playing as the Xenomorph) the running speed in that game is just about as fast as the normal walking speed in AVP 2010, in addition you can run in that game. If you would have said AVP Classic, then yes, that game was faster. But on AVP2 I very much disagree! Maybe it's also just my bias. I dislike AVP Classic, I like AVP2 but I really love AVP 2010. Still, on an objective level I disagree. If you would have mentioned the weapon limit in AVP 2010, that would have been another subject were I would have agreed that it was changed for console.

[@DarrenRockwell]

I remember when Halo came out the effect it had on PC Games was so profound that people used the term "consolitis" like it was a disease. You would see that term float around in a lot of game reviews. I can recall when I was in high school and seeing games like Halo and CS come out increase the popularity of video games made me realize that things were about to change to appeal to this new audience of mostly casual players. My predictions came true more so than I could even imagine. It's similar to that feeling when you are searching for hours for new music and find some obscure artist with no following and try and tell people how good they are, only to have people just shrug their shoulders, then later on that same artist becomes incredibly popular having shows sell out all over the world.

[@ShyamadeepPrasad]

I have played PC games for two decades now, and often felt let down by AAA FPS combat generally getting slower and slower over the years. Having not used a console or even a controller hooked to a PC until very recently, I always thought the prime reason for all the dumbing down, was to simply make things more accessible to casual players. Now though, I just feel even more irritated. I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised though. Focusing on consoles have ruined many games e.g. Crysis 2's ridiculously small levels versus Crysis 1's huge free roam map, so it's not like there wasn't already a precedent for where this sort of influence could come from.

[@alienatedpoet1766]

Until Doom 2016 and Eternal, Halo was my favorite series. And it is still in 2nd place next to Doom, I played all of their games for each series. But, I cannot ignore the effect Halo had on console games and FPS's at the time. Here we go on another tangent. To me the cover, regenerating health, and movement speed has to work together with the weapon sandbox. Halo succeeds because each weapon has a purpose. Whereas COD has the issue where there is very little difference between an MP5, G17, or an AK47. They are an SMG, Full auto pistol, and an Assault Rifle. But all are full auto and kill in the same amount of time. I can't tell a difference power wise. And there is no difference between a python revolver and a desert Eagle, etc. But (at least until Advanced Warfare) it made sense because it was meant to be "realistic" and could back pedal onto the writing. COD was linear, but a good esponage/military story for a long time. But around Ghosts and Advanced Warfare (where I dropped off) the writing just gone boring and when the writing in a linear game has gone out, and the gameplay isn't good then the whole game suffers. Half-Life has fast movement, and an arsenal, but it was linear. But the writing incorporated the linearity into the narrative to tell a story asking "what is free-will?" Most third person games have the ability to improve the gameplay and keep the admittedly decent writing. Instead it has become so sub-par that I don't want to play a game that's third person because that usually means its a 6+ hour movie where I wiggle the joystick sometimes. I'm an English Major, I like writing and I love good writing regardless of its medium. BUT on Video Games, I have similar logic to popular blockbuster movies. Example: Godzilla/ Transformers movies. My logic is "We are here to see big cool things fight. If you can have a great human story (like ShinGodzilla) AND all the cool action, then AWESOME! If not, then get rid of it entirely!" In Video Games; Gameplay should be first, but writing should be good too (not to say simple means bad because killing demons because they killed your pet rabbit is awesome AND simple). But Gameplay is what should be worked on first. If a game is fun, but story is bad, I'll stay. If a game isn't fun, but the story is good, I'll skip it. If you have both, then that's amazing. I'm not going to go full Carmack and say "story is expected to be there, but not the focus" because I feel like that ignores anything that isn't two sticks and a ball, but there does have to be balance. If a game only has writing, then it has no right to be a game. Sure Mass Effect is a third person shooter and is a little more than average, but the story is PART of the gameplay. You have decisions that YOU AS THE PLAYER make that effect the whole series. I consider that part of the gameplay. Something like The Last of Us, honestly, shouldn't have gameplay because that took a backseat too. Again, its all balance.

[@masterdeity3400]

It's so weird how you and I agree with everything you said. Down to the Last of Us comments where I constantly say that it doesn't need gameplay because it doesn't benefit from it in any way. It's not supposed to be a full on action game where the story is secondary and the gameplay takes the stage. But it's not a horror game ment to make you feel the terror of a zombie apocalypse. It's story is more of a character study that hardly warrants any gameplay at all. The game is world renowned for its story. This goes for games like Red Dead Redemption 1/2, Uncharted and many others that don't benefit from having gameplay but have it anyway. It created a whole group of people that say the phrase "I play games for the story" talk about missing the point.

[@rsolsjo]

I still have hope for a game similar to Quake III Arena to make a return. There were always.. various pieces of the puzzle used or homaged in newer games, but nothing that quite captured the simple, brilliant, frantic FPS multiplayer style of that game. And yes, I would never think to play that on a console, but I also love Halo and I'll always play that series on an Xbox console.

[@riba2233]

It did, quake champions being played right now.

[@rsolsjo]

@@riba2233 Quake Champions is the closest thing to it but it's not quite there. A bit too slow, not as focused, too many lootboxes and general meaningless crap. I basically want Quake III Arena but with modern graphics. That's it. That's all.

[@riba2233]

@@rsolsjo lootboxes? When did you play it last time, a lot has changed :) it is very fast paced, just enter unholy trinity match with experienced player and you'll see, extremely fast action.

[@rsolsjo]

@@riba2233 It's been a long time, may be time to try it again

[@riba2233]

@@rsolsjo I suggest you do, it should be better now and if you need any help we are very active in quake discord community or reddit. For me this game is so fun I barely play any other games now

[@OpenMawProductions]

Huge props for the dignified and mature discourse on this subject. This has always been a heated battlegrounds, even when Halo first came out there was a strong reaction from the PC side, which I have always been on. I never owned an Xbox, any of them. I played the PC version of Halo some years ago. I have a lot of respect for Halo in terms of the design, because they did have to look at all the games that came before. The Goldeneyes and so forth, and really break it all down and try to understand how to improve things. Everything in Halo that may have spread out into other shooters was done in Halo primarily as a quality of life improvement. Whether you're looking at Goldeneye or Turok, juggling a bunch of weapons with a limited selection of buttons can be nerve wracking in a pinch. In the case of Goldeneye one thing that is actually a polar opposite to Halo is the health system. There is no regen, there are no medpacks. You have health, and you can find body armor. That's it. Once the health is gone, it's gone, you're done. Without checkpoints or saving of any kind within the level, this can make some of the missions very frustrating. The thing with Halo's regenerating health is, in the first game it was handled rather well. They went for a compromise between the classic and their new way of thinking. The shield is there to act as a buffer, to give you a chance to recover from a heavy engagement, but it is not a get out of jail free card. You have a finite amount of health under that shield, and if yoiu get too careless you're going to find yourself with very little health left. Then you get to the two weapon system. I used to be staunchly against it period. Just no. However, I do see certain benefits to it. In Halo it forces you to really consider what weapons you want to carry from area to area. Every weapon has a strong utility, and the game doesn't leave you defenseless. Between grenades and enemies dropping alternatives you can always switch out equipment in the moment to change your strategy. It falls apart when you adopt it without designing the game around it. For example, Duke Nukem Forever was more akin to Half-Life right up until 2008 when they made the switch to a two weapons limit. You can actually see a lot of Halo elements in Duke Nukem Forever, but they're like a bad XEROX of Halo. They're clunkier, uglier. The two weapon limit doesn't fit Duke's arsenal. For one, the experimental weapons like the Shrinker and Expander become almost entirely worthless weapons within the design of DNF because of the two weapons system. You can carry guns like the shotgun, the ripper, or the rocket launcher which will kill your enemies instantly, or you can futz with the shrinker which will require you to close in the gap and finish the enemy off up close. Same for the freezer. In a Halo game, the shrinking and freezing weapons would be turned into grenade types, and wouldn't interrupt the core flow of the game. On the other hand, you have a game like FEAR, which came out in 2005. It has a two weapon system, but you move a lot faster and have sliding and air kicking attacks, you have health stims and health pick ups. It takes a couple ideas from the Halo and COD games, but then it mixes in those old school elements as well to give a very different experience, and, again, all of the weapons have a high level of utility. I can remember reaching points where the game was throwing assault rifles at me, but I was packing the shotgun and SMG, and having to consider if I wanted to change or not. I'd be good either way, but having to stop and think about how I wanted to attack the next section... It can be an additive feature if it's handled correctly. I would also say, though Halo popularized some of these elements, it was really Call of Duty 4 that pushed them. Once MW1 dropped, it seemed like every shooter that came out played exactly like a modern military shooter, even if it was some science fiction thing or some other concept, it was still playing like COD. I think Halo takes flack for what other games ultimately were ruining. On the PC we enjoyed a lot of great games even after Halo had come out. Also, on the subject of Half-Life, I don't think its fair to lump it in with "slower" shooters. It has a slower pace to be sure, but if you compare Half-Life and it's progenitor, Quake, you'll actually see in terms of movement they're very similar, with a lot of the movement options of Quake still in Half-Life. Whether it's bunny hoping or strafe jumping, they're all there still. Great video!

[@TheGrandeCapo]

I think we all know who's the real villain in this story. Or should I say who's commercial success ruined fps genre. Yes. I'm looking to you call of duty 4 modern warfare.

[@tonic4120]

The advanced mobility point is super moot. It is rarely used, and largely in the context of speed running. Halo was not designed around rocket jumping, as it was often the preferred way to BREAK the game by jumping out of the expected bounds of the map and skip huge sections of it. This is night and day from "Titanfall has advanced mobility", where wall-running is something the even an average player does all the time, and the whole game is built for it in mind.

[@JZStudiosonline]

So... without trying to put words in your mouth, from what I'm understanding, are you saying Halo ruined FPS by incorporating already popular mechanics and introducing the world to console FPS with controls that aren't ass based on misinformation and misconceptions you had when you were younger? Isn't that... kind of a dumb argument? Whoa, hold the fuck on, Resistance 2 changed their weapon limit and shields because Halo was popular 7 years prior? And this makes sense to you? These arguments are fundamentally flawed. Weapon and item wheels existed on the N64. There's no reason they couldn't still have a massive arsenal. Which is case in point BY THE FIRST GAME. If Halo was so influential and ruined FPS, the first game wouldn't have had that. You know what game was INSANELY popular the year before Resistance 2? Call of Duty 4. You know what game influenced FPS more than anything else? Call of Duty 4. You know what influenced Call of Duty? Medal of Honor, released prior to Halo. I don't even mean to be a Halo fanboy, but like... Jesus, this is a bad argument. I guess you can say it's your experience, but it's factually incorrect. Halo primarily introduced controls that didn't suck ass, as you said, and online multiplayer on consoles. Neither one of those things is a major game design function that means that Quake becomes impossible to port to consoles, especially considering Quake, Doom, Serious Sam, and others had already been ported, even before the Xbox existed. Doom has clones, COD has clones, the only potential clone for Halo that's ever actually existed is Destiny and that's made by the same company. Also, it's not like Halo influenced COD, which then went on to ruin FPS games. COD was a group that splintered off of Medal of Honor, which released and was popular pre-Halo. This argument is just so fundamentally factually incorrect... I don't even really know what to say. At the end it seems more like your bitching about games being "Consolized," so the better argument is "Consoles killed arena shooters" and not "Halo killed FPS by creating a not dogshit control scheme." Even then I'd be inclined to disagree. The arena shooters were still popular on console and Halo wasn't the first popular game, even on console, to have all these gameplay mechanics you hate. Personally I doubt the COD team were inspired by Halo when they were ripping off Medal of Honor. And Halo is not a cover shooter. Having regenerating health doesn't make it a cover shooter, it just means you don't have to scour the map for health pickups after every fight. It's a natural progression of systems, which again, wasn't introduced nor made popular by Halo. And CE had health pickups. They just had a small buffer which was intended to get players to be more aggressive since they weren't instantly punished for stepping out like they would be in games without that. Halo 2 removed the health pickups and had the shields recharge even faster, to encourage even more aggressive gameplay. It reads like you're okay with console FPS games having dogshit controls because that meant FPS game were more or less invalid for console, (even though PC controls at the time also fucking sucked) but because Halo introduced controls that worked which meant consoles were now viable for FPS games, Halo ruined shooters. Which... if that's your argument then... I guess so, but seriously? Then you argue the game reinforces the idea of taking cover while you're doing your first playthrough on the highest difficulty and you don't know how the game works... which again... seems like a dumb argument. Someone new to Doom playing on Nightmare is probably just going to pop out behind corners and take pot shots where they can. What's the fucking difference? I'm watching a guy play Quake, and that's... exactly how he's playing Quake. 14:18 "Hey, that looks cool!" LOL, fucking got you on that one. "The Halo killer!" What a piece of shit. All in all, sure, it's your feelings, but considering how big FPS got on the PS3/360 era and they were *all* COD clones, I'd blame COD, which ripped off a popular game prior to Halo, and removed health pickups before Halo 2 even launched, and pretty much everyone would agree COD had a much bigger impact. The only COD *might* have taken from Halo is roughly the control scheme and multiplayer functionality. Everything else was already present in MOH.

[@ardentparagon159]

halo is responsible for those design decisions, but I think they were popularized by call of duty. So while I think halo is technically responsible I think cod is the real catalyst. I know that is semantics but halos gameplay is not cover based, you are encouraged to run out and play it like doom or quake with circle strafing, jumps and projectile dodging, you gauge how long you take out in the open until you pull back. You are not meant to hunker down around a pillar and pop out and shoot and pop back in. Call of duty is meant to be played that way. So I think attributing that to halo is a little bit disingenuous. Also I think doom 2016 has a lot more in common with quake than doom.

[@mordecaiandthekobokerz]

What about the TotalBiscuit's comment on Shredded's video about 'Pure' arena shooters that he said got no playerbase.

[@spartanx9293]

7:24 halos two weapon limit has nothing to do with it being a console shooter it was a deliberate decision made to incentivize certain methods of play and to force you to interact with the sandbox

[@spartanx9293]

9:12 call of duty plays significantly differently to Halo with an incredibly high ttk I would argue that a regenerating health system made sense in that context you're going to die in a few seconds there's no point in managing health in anything but the campaign

[@BertHeymans]

Politicians should take note, this is the lost art of respectful monologue.

[@realbrizza]

This is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels to watch. Great response mayo. Keep the joints coming. Looking forward to your reviews & opinion pieces on upcoming & past games

[@fwamable394]

15:50 i feel like genre changes can be done well, like ninja gaiden, but most of the time I’d prefer the devs to just create a new series…….. Resident evil 4

[@langfordjeremy100]

Ninja Gaiden?

[@fwamable394]

@@langfordjeremy100 mayo uses ninja gaiden as an example of a series changing genre like a minute after the time stamp.

[@langfordjeremy100]

Oh ok I got it! Just waking up lol

[@doomer604]

I wish capcom never changed the series' identity to RE4. I didn't play the originals when they first released, but I started out with them when getting into RE. I played RE4 a couple months back and was bored to tears. It's such an abomination of an RE game imo. I can see why some people think it's fun, but it's just so braindead for me.

[@extrasalt9053]

It's more that Halo influenced Call of Duty, which greatly influenced gaming in a negative way, than Halo directly influencing gaming in a negative way. Games like Killzone 2 and Resistance 2, were trying to copy COD4 more than Halo 3. It didn't make sense for Call of Duty to have regenerating health like Halo did but it copied it because it worked better for pacing in a console game, even if it didn't make sense logically.

[@bulldogsoccer222]

I agree with points that both of you have made, but I think that the chain goes Halo > CoD > campy cover based games, not Halo/CoD > campy cover based games. Halo is clearly more about movement than most “modern FPS games,” and while your points on recharging health are valid, I think that the pace of combat in Halo negates a lot of those negatives, where as CoD is about standing still and shooting, camping and hiding after a fight to recover. You brought up “Halo AND CoD” multiple times, and I do not think that that’s entirely fair. CoDs influence is separate and actually led to some issues in the Halo series in later games.

[@TehObLiVioUs]

what's even more funny about the cover mechanics was CALL OF DUTY (any of them tbh) MULTIPLAYER just wanna rush in there and SHOOT and KILL little did I know, that was the DOOM VIBE all along (yeah being too young to play original doom when they came out, i was more COD growing up) TILL DOOM 2016 came out and opened my eyes to the whole doom francise ..........OH MAN this is MY STYLE. just like how I tried playing battlefield multiplayer which varied greatly from COD multiplayer, wasn't just shoot and kill "doom combat vibe" so then realized when I started dooming, OH man i've been playing the wrong game all along forced cover games, yeah. sometimes i really do wanna just go fast and blast someone in the face in a game

[@ScileSc]

There only one way to solve this now. *1v1 Blood Gulch*

[@MykeGG]

The virgin doom fan vs The virgin halo fan vs The giga chad who let people play the games they enjoy without criticising them

[@matheusblancosoares7610]

I understand your statement and i respect it. But Halo along with DOOM will always remain my favorite FPS franchises ever made. Great video and response, very respectful .

[@monimoni-v6u]

every fps copies halo cz they know halo is the best we had since half life

[@pagb666]

Halo might have saved *CONSOLE* shooters, but that's it. Shooters didn't need saving, we had Undying, RTCW and other legendary shooters coming out. When I played Halo on PC, well... it felt lackuster to say the best.

[@stiefn3825]

Even consoles had titles like TimeSplitters and Nightfire. Halo was more an Xbox phenomena, and most bad attributes of Halo were actually popularized by Cod 2+.

[@yuaisnek]

This idea that X ruined Y had always been childish and arrogant to me. It asserts that your way is best because you like it, and that what's popular is bad. It's hipster talk. If it ruined the FPS genre then why is it the highest selling one now in 2021? These gameplay designs didn't ruin FPS games, in fact it did quite the opposite. New life was breathed into the FPS genre with that little game Half Life. Wait... That's not Halo. Yes the often overlooked but very important have that is Half Life set these things in motion. Half Life started these trends, Halo just continued it. Half Life is far more of a cover based shooter than Halo. Halo didn't ruin shooters, the market just found what sold and was liked (key word) by audiences. Shooters like Quake, Doom, Unreal Tournament were on there way out, the genre was bound for change. If Halo didn't come along, something else would have. Halo didn't ruin FPS, the genre itself did. Speaking of Unreal Tournament, that game saw console releases. In fact every game mentioned did. And there transition to console was fine. You can play lol those games just fine on controller. To say a single game ruined an entire genre because it had the best way to play a shooter on a controller ruined the genre is, well to put it bluntly, fucking stupid. Once again plenty of games can be played with a controller, even Doom Eternal (seemingly your favorite game). You imply that the control interface changing helped "ruin" shooters, but if that were the case they wouldn't be on consoles and play perfectly fine. Saying something popularized a thing thus that's the problem is short slighted and petty. You're placing all your frustrations on something that was going to happen eventually anyways. Halo and it's design didn't "ruin" shooters, you just like I specific sub genre that isnt as popular as the other. This isn't even counting the fact that that genre is still very much alive, which makes all this feel even more petty of a complaint. Please stop saying things like Halo ruined (your type of) shooters, when (your type of) shooter was on the way out to begin with and isn't even gone and new ones are still being made. It's just fake outrage.

[@fuckso2342]

Half life did not set the trends of regen health, weapon limits, slow movement and slower fps combat. Half life especially Half Life 1 is far from cover shooter in fact its plays more like Quake 2 than anything.

[@yuaisnek]

@@fuckso2342 weapon limits were not set by Halo, they're a product of limitations. If Halo didn't exist you'd blend it on Call of Duty. You are searching for blame because you refuse to see the reason behind a decision. Half Life 1 on any difficulty above normal requires you to play the game as a cover shooter. That's not an opinion, that's a fact due to the way the game plays. Hitscan causes this. Even in the original Doom you had to do peak shooting, and play it like a cover shooter against hitscanners or they will chew you apart. Halo on levels against the convent allow you more freedom of movement in so many ways because you have the option to dodge projectiles. It's why doom 2016/eternal moved away from hitscan enemies. Halo did not even "set trends" the market did. The games you consider "better" aren't. If they were they would have never taken out of favour. Fact of the matter is you're in the minority, and that makes the statement "X ruined Y" stupid and egotistical. Because it only "ruined" things for the minority of people. Stop blaming something because it's popular, it's fucking cringe.

[@fuckso2342]

@@yuaisnek I am not saying Halo starting these trends either but Mayo is not wrong in saying shooters during the mid to late 2000s starting becoming dumbed down clunky console shooters.

[@RazeAndJadith]

Man i'll bet no one in his comment section can strafe jump. I don't think anyone can relate to the loss in high skill movement systems till you go from strafe jumping to halo. it's insane, I was offended the devs treated the players like they were totally inept when i played those early console shooters after halo. Like, damn people will adapt and get better. Strafe jumping is a system that isn't needed to start playing but is so rewarding to learn and use.

[@Cameron088]

As someone who understands the points, I still think Halo is getting TOO MUCH blame here. While I dont agree Halo SAVED FPS games, Halo DID revolutionize the FPS genre on Consoles. Halo managed to make the clunky twin stick shooter into a mainstay in the FPS genre, and was actually a VERY FAST fps (and still is) Most of the games listed here (AVP 2010, Resistance 2) all came out during the COD renaissance era. Remember, COD 4 REALLY inspired other games. There are plenty of FPS games that came out pre 2007 that didnt copy the success of Halo for gameplay. Hell, Half Life 2 came out AFTER Halos CE and 2, and still wasnt Influenced AT ALL by Halo. All Halo did for the FPS genre was SHOW that a FPS could be made to work on consoles. There were copies, sure. And it did Influence some games, yes. But Halo IS NOT the reason FPS games declined, it was the popularity and success of COD 4: Modern Warfare. That's when games started to shift to regenerating health, two weapon limits, and of course, the crappy AI would become more common So no, while I dont agree that Halo saved FPS games, I also dont agree AT ALL that Halo KILLED FPS games. COD 4 is the game to blame for games playing it safe with regenerating health and two weapon limits.

[@shadewolf0075]

It's like blaming doom or quake for all the lazy clones of them back in the day. Halo had less to do with the way shooters went than call of duty 4 did. That is were the regenerating health came from not Halo CE that still required you to get health kits. I think Mayo is mostly playing devil's advocate for the group that do blame halo without actually looking at the main game that everyone was copying which was COD4

[@matt0198922]

Wait a minute... Resistance came out in 2007, meaning Halo 1 and Halo 2 had already been out for years. Then, when Resistance 2 comes out and has the 2-weapon limit...you blame Halo's influence? How does that makes sense? If Halo was the one to blame, then Resistance 1 would have been that way to begin with!

[@underthemayo]

It's not a straight like like that. It's that the formula established by Halo and then further popularized by call of duty infected other shooters, even ones that initially tried to buck the trend. Resistance adopted those mechanics in the sequel thinking it would lead to more success.

[@Cameron088]

@@underthemayo What you mean to say is "I will only ever blame Halo since it dethroned Doom for the longest time" No, Resistance came out in 06, which put it at the time Halo was king. The game still had a old school feel to it, fast paced movement and a weapon wheel for your arsenal. Then, in 08, Resistance 2 came out....and added shit like ADS, Sprint, Regen health, and the two weapon limit...and it's Halo fault....riiiiggghhhttt Totally just gonna forget about the BIGGEST GAME OF 07 (and was the best selling game of the YEAR) was COD 4: MODERN WARFARE? You know, quite easily the biggest game to influence the modern FPS genre? Yeah, THATS the game that influenced Resistance 2. Halo was 8 years old, the first game and third game NEVER tried to copy Halo, bit the second did? No, that's NOT how that works my friend. They saw how COD 4 did, how revolutionary it was back then, and copied its success without understanding what made it good. HALO isn't at fault here, it's COD Halo's only fault was dethroning your beloved Doom back in the 2000's

[@nxg5207]

After watching this I understand your frustration a little more. If every game that looked interesting coming out was a variation on halo I’d be pissed off too. I’m glad games coming out today mostly try to carve out their own identity, which leads to a hugely diverse library I’m grateful to have.

[@badgasaurus4211]

Halo didn’t ruin fps games. It was the copy cats and developers who decided to focus on regenerating health and camping based shooters

[@balderdasq8987]

I think the main problem with your video was that it only focused on Halo and fps games and not the industry at large. Halo didn’t invent the trend of studios taking surface level traits of a popular game. Remember all those terrible platformers that tried to be Mario or Sonic? Remember the mediocre Doom and Half Life clones that completely missed the point? Your problems are with the industry and lazy publishers, not Halo, and specifically targeting it gave people the wrong impression.

[@joelkp1185]

“I enjoy fast paced movement based games” Also calls Titanfall 2 a “disappointment” in his video on the game.

[@fuckso2342]

Thats because he only played the singleplayer which imo is massively overrated. It was fun and solid but nothing special. Like Mayo correctly states what brings it down is the length being really short, the enemy ai being stupid and enemy variety being limited. The campaign never pushes players to actually get good at the advanced movement. Where Titanfall 2 shines is the multiplayer. Its topnotch, engaging, and extremely fun. Mayo should have played the multiplayer.

[@Fedor_Kisliakov]

When you were talking about awkwardness of FPS games on consoles, I immediately remembered the PS1 port of Duke Nukem 3D. The amount of fingers' gymnastics necessary to just aim up or down was ridiculous because PS1 controllers did not have sticks yet. I think you had to hold R1 or R2 and use the D-Pad. And to center the aim back, you had to press R1 and R2. But at least the soundtrack for that port was one of the best ever.

[@thewanderingartists]

Me who never played Halo: hmmmm interesting.

[@hyperx72]

God PC players are the most obnoxious about ANYTHING that even seems to be designed around consoles. A combined arms game with vehicles and a large map and varied enemies that uses it's relatively slower movement speed to make more tactical gameplay along with run and gun (Because of the enemies projectiles) "SLOW SLOW CONSOLE SLOW EASIER FOR SCRUBS" Regenerating health done to put less emphasis on often frustrating backtracking for health and to help focus on moment-to-moment gameplay? "EASIER FOR CONSOLES COPY COPY" Making the controls not ass? "YOU CAN'T DO THAT PC SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" The rising popularity of mechanics you don't like that are more attributed to media trends around things like tactical action and modern military shooters than being console-specific? "NO IT'S CONSOLES IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT" Cover that's literally a thing in ALL shooters less you just be put in flat blank combat deserts where everything can hit you all the time? "THIS IS LITERALLY HALO'S FAULT" (And not military/tactical shooters that put more emphasis on ducking and firing around cover)

[@theelitemyt]

I'm a bit up and down with Halo. In co-op I can enjoy most, although Reach is the only one I'd say is truly good. The original though? I've never been able to beat it. It bores the shit out of me before I get too far in it. Considering I'd beaten everything between 2 and 4 (including spinoffs) on Legendary solo, that says a lot. Couldn't even get through Anniversary.

[@WillYazdani]

Mayo, how many times do I have to say this? You don’t like the game that I like, therefore, you bad, me good.

[@riba2233]

I still don't get why you won't give quake chamions a fair shot, it is like doom eternal on steroids, very fast gameplay, lot of fast movement options and best guns in any game. It has everything you like in a game and it is in a good place right now

[@underthemayo]

Dont know why you're certain I havent given QC a shot. I played it a bunch for a few months in 2019.

[@riba2233]

@@underthemayo ok that is good to hear! Game is in a better place right now. Idk, after I discovered it mostly stopped playing other sp games and I have never played mp games regularly before. And I played mostly doom 2016 before QC, but quake was so much more fun in every regard.

[@dantefromdevilmaycry9857]

I like Mayo He seems like a Calm and Reasonable person

[@Finn1devine]

Haven't watched the video, but Nerd is right mayo

[@axelc6125]

So when are you guys doing a podcast together? I’ve never heard of this guy before, but now I’m checking out a lot of his videos. Thank you for showing me such an awesome creator. I think you guys have similar commentary styles that’s would go well together in a longer discussion. Though we don’t always see eye to eye, I love your videos because they give me a chance to think as to why I keep my opinion, or change it. Keep up the great content!

[@aeixo2533]

It annoyed me so much when FPS games suddenly started having slow movement speed. I didn't understand at the time why it was happening. I finally bought Unreal 2, and the first thing I noticed was the character walking through mud, coming from playing the Original Quake trilogy and Unreal 1, to this, was crazy.

[@erykzysk3330]

Best thing to watch when I just came back from having a shitty school day.

[@lebendigesgespenst7669]

Oh it’s happened. It’s gone full circle

[@sagebias2251]

I think the real annoyance for a lot of people is controllers. They are so convenient when you want to lounge on the couch. Controllers are in some ways more limited than mouse and keyboard and require gameplay changes.

[@cringyusernamesbsvqq1909]

This debate needs a full 3 hour podcast

[@bigmack70]

I've played every major shooter since about 1995 and Halo is pretty much the only reason I maintained interest in the genre. Most shooters are games I play once, or play maybe a hundred games of multiplayer, and then leave. Probably dumped about a thousand hours into counterstrike 1.6 in college but got bored eventually. Been going back to halo for 20 years now as my go-to FPS. So at least for me personally, halo has saved FPS. For what it's worth, doom 2016 and doom eternal were the first games I thought had more fun FPS campaign gameplay than halo 1-3.

[@MrKaji010]

Dude if you want to feel like you're playing Doom just put it on easy difficulty

[@archangel8428]

No. There's still the reloading, the slow speed, and the weapon limit.

[@MrKaji010]

@@archangel8428 but if you're playing the master chief collection for Halo 1 and 2 you can activate the skull that makes you have infinite ammo

[@archangel8428]

@@MrKaji010 Still, slow speed and weapon limit.

[@MrKaji010]

@@archangel8428 okay this is your opinion for me I like the game

[@MrKaji010]

@@archangel8428 I mean games

[@dasfeuerneko]

To be quite honest, playing both types of games are quite fun. I love playing and I grew up with Halo, but I never discarded the importance of DooM. I can say I love playing the classics as well as the newest, DooM 2016 and Eternal. It's hard for me to pick though whether or not I'd play Halo or DooM solely because of the way both play. One as mentioned being slower than the other. Doesn't take long at all to get back into the swing perse, but it is a bit of a problem to face. I love fast paced decision making, making "reads" on enemy players. I find myself more in line with fighting games such as For Honor or Dark Souls, but there are days where I will go back to the roots of what I played when I was younger. Halo and DooM always have a special place in my heart.

[@shooters1251]

What's great about your criticism about games adopting Halo mechanics to their own detriment/ lack of innovation is that this also applies to Halo. The biggest debate you'll have between Halo fans is the implementation of sprint. Halo after Bungie struggled with its own identity crisis with a change in art style, new writers (with new story direction), and change in composers (Marty and Salvatori were a HUGE part of Halo's identity). The biggest hurdle Infinite is facing is how to keep true to form while also keeping up with trends (a game needs to sell well to survive after all), just as you had stated with DOOM: ETERNAL and Mortal Kombat's innovation. Personally, I think Infinite will succeed in this. Either way, as a Halo fan that's played through the ups and downs (Halo 5 x.x), your points are very valid.

[@SAClassHunterZero]

As a console player, and someone who plays shooters exclusively on controller, I think the other thing about the trend-setting Halo CE is responsible for is that it just sells us short. Console players can handle faster movement, faster aiming, and the like. The era in the 2000s is brutal also because once you master those kinds of shooters that aped Halo, you just get plain bored after a while.

[@DemonKingHiei]

Gears of war has never had a 2 weapon limit in its main series of games

[@underthemayo]

I should have out uncharted in that clip like I originally planned.

[@DemonKingHiei]

@@underthemayo I’ve never played uncharted but the only real issue I found with this video was the gears weapon limit thing so good one you for actually holding strong opinions and defending them…even if I don’t agree with some of them