The Problem With One-Hit KO Moves | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[@joe_the_zombie]

The "then you get steve" made me laugh way harder than you had any right to make me, I was completely blindsided by that

[@D.Ku_03]

Steve about to become this channel's Yone

[@SSM24_]

Watching this after SSC it didn't surprise me in the least :p

[@taurushall8501]

@@D.Ku_03 Yone he whose brain is bologna

[@JCHammer]

Too be fair, the entire competitive community was blindsided by Steve 😂

[@briangruenewald7536]

13:29

[@BainesMkII]

Those are some weird conditions to judge whether a move should be considered a One Hit KO. Start up and recovery have nothing to do with whether a move is capable of producing a one hit KO, they are instead factors that developers tweak to attempt to *balance* such moves. Same goes for stuff like limited availability and difficulty landing it. A move that doesn't kill isn't a OHKO regardless of how bad those various other factors are. A one-hit KO move that hits the entire screen on frame 1, has zero recovery, and can be spammed infinitely without any limitations is still a OHKO even though it misses all those check-boxes, it is just a very poorly balanced OHKO.

[@AshenDemon]

Yeah those are pretty stupid conditions. Especially the special zoom one.

[@sharifbrown3567]

Yeah, this guy was on some silly shit doing that.

[@hydra4370]

He could have literally said "'one hit' kills arent moves which necessarily kill in one hit, but moves which have more extreme knockback scaling that allow for kills at much earlier percents than usual."

[@AshenDemon]

@@hydra4370 No they are moves that kill in one hit, the move she said don't but One hit kills kill in one hit. That's why they are named that, just because the examples he used don't match the definition, doesn't mean the definition is wrong.

[@icecreambone]

it seems likely that they're not in fact defining a one-hit KO, but rather a *move intended by the developers to be a one-hit KO in most cases* which allows the discussion to focus on the game design of such moves i.e. the whole point of the video

[@ekh.123]

Before premiere, here's my take: OHKO moves are (intended to be) balanced by them being incredibly hard to hit or having really strict limitations on when you can pull them off. -Finishing Touch is balanced by needing Cloud to fully charge Limit Gauge and the move itself having a decent startup, but a ton of endlag. Also, it doesn't really kill as early as the other one-button kills. It's much of a less comeback factor since one whiff equals death, and while there are a couple setups into it, those opportunities rarely show themselves. This move is pretty acceptable as a result. -Similar thing goes for Hero's Whack and Thwack. This move is balanced by needing to be selectable in the randomized Menu, forcing Hero to stand completely still before using it and the opponent knowing that those are options, having a very specific (albeit large) hitbox, dealing very little damage and knockback if they don't kill, and the opponent being incredibly unlikely to die at 30% or below. Hero is hardly ever gonna land these moves in the first place on a reasonably strong opponent, and the dice roll for an extremely early kill is extremely stacked against him. By the time these moves have a decent chance to kill, you may as well just kill them with an aerial by the ledge. Still, it DOES have a chance to insta-kill, no matter how low, so it's not an unreasonable gamble and can be extremely tilting for the opponent. But it's not one Hero can often attempt, and it'll be a hard decision whether to roll the dice or use one of the more consistently good options in the menu. -Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch... I mean, if you land these at all, congratulations, you've severely outsmarted your opponent (or you broke their shield). -On the other hand, Little Mac's KO Punch is, ahem, intended to be balanced by forcing Mac to dish out or take a certain amount of damage, being super punishable on whiff, being really easy to neutralize (in theory), and being stuck on a character who is (supposed to be) dying offstage a ton. In this instance, it's supposed to be a comeback mechanic. I already hate comeback mechanics, but this. Oh man, this. The big issue with KO Punch is that in a vacuum, it's a medium risk, extremely high reward move, exceedingly skewed towards the user's favor. As a result, the fate of a player's set is determined on whether Little Mac will land a KO Punch or not. It takes only one mistake for Little Mac to swing the match in his favor unless the opponent is still up by a whole stock. This will result in the opponent either camping out Mac for a considerable amount of time or risking their entire tournament life on one aggressive option... in which case BOOM! This kind of interaction is incredibly unhealthy and is no fun for either player. Overall, I don't really hate the idea of OHKO moves or low-percent kill moves existing if they're made impractical to land or insanely risky to use, since seeing them land in the first place is either really cool (Finishing Touch and Rest without the setups) or really funny (Thwack and Whack). However, when the moves themselves are relatively low risk for how insane a reward they can grant, that's where I just shake my head. Being killed by a Finishing Touch means I got hard read or got hit by an extremely specific setup that barely comes up in a real match. Being killed by a Little Mac KO Punch feels like getting robbed. TL;DR Little Mac's KO Punch is frustrating as hell, but the other OHKO moves are just fine, imo. But it kinda depends on your definition of an OHKO move. (Okay, maybe Rest is annoying since there are setups that can consistently pop up in a real match.)

[@TheFlashyLucario]

I agree with your opinion on KO punch, it forces lame gameplay. Also, imo Puffs rest is balanced by being extremely punishable if she misses (so if the Puff player fucks up, they are dead), and it’s on a character with half a moveset (let’s be real, Puff has 5 aerials, a decent dash attack, a horrible recovery, 2 good specials, a very situational special (sing) and Roll Out, her only decent tilt is up tilt, pretty shitty throws, bad grab, bad ground speed in general lol, and pretty meh Smash Attacks that are high risk, mediocre reward) Imagine if someone like Mythra, Kazuya or Steve had rest, it would be broken lol

[@Pj_901]

I hate ko punch

[@AshenDemon]

@@TheFlashyLucario Bruh you can get punished for killing with Rest. I was playing my friend the other day and he landed rest so I just came back after dying and won the game because he was still in endlag. On top of that. It should always force a star or screen KO unless it's the aerial version on last stock.

[@XBeastModeXEPIC]

@@AshenDemon for that reason alone top puff players like base almost never use rest, the way to get around that to only use rest at high percentage so you get the extra long kill animations

[@ghosthunter0950]

I have to agree except for the fact that I don't like hero's either. because you can give someone much better than you a lose for no good reason. meanwhile falcon punch and warlock punch will NEVER be hit unless your opponent messes up really badly like getting their shield broken or just not dodging a move so telegraphed you can swap controllers in between and still dodge it. and at that point it's just fair they lose the stock over it.

[@moocowp4970]

I'd argue the first two criteria have nothing to do with a one hit KO, just criteria for good game design. If a game designer made a super quick move with no end lag that instantly killed an opponent at 0% it would still be considered a one hit KO, but wouldn't meet your first two criteria.

[@ln8496]

Melee Shine isnt necessarily considered a one hit KO move. Mostly because it has a ton of other uses and most moves can kill ppl offstage at 0 due the nature of the game

[@jmurray1110]

Technically speaking a spike could be a OHKO depending on how you use it so the term doesn’t really apply in the conventional sense and might be more accurately classed under “big” and “super” moves depending on the attacks parameters

[@Fenges0106]

I agree with you but I think a single move can make a character. Kazuya with his EWGF is the best example. Also I think one hit moves are disliked because it often feels or is just lucky/someone is fishing just for that move both of which is not fun to watch.

[@janswhatsupdoc]

That’s what confuses me, it happens on pure luck and they’re getting angry? They should be grateful gw can’t get 9’s, Luigi can’t get misfires, peach bombs, or even hero crits 100% of the time

[@Fenges0106]

@@janswhatsupdoc I do agree with you but I personaly whould like if there are less luck based moves, because I think there should be the least amount of luck in a competitive game. After hero released I remember a big hate towords him because of his randomness. And its also worse to see your player lose due to "luck" instead of "skill".

[@janswhatsupdoc]

@@Fenges0106 true I’ve gotten hit by luck before too. But in hindsight luck can turn against the player more often than not, there’s a reason why characters like Hero see so little usage despite peeps wanting to ban him 😬 Don’t get me wrong I agree I hate RNG too but it could be much worst

[@Fenges0106]

@@janswhatsupdoc Yeah I agree that people make it a bigger problem than it actualy is, and that more times than not trying for that one move lost them the game ,but i still dont think its healty for a game.(But its not that big of a problem that whould justify a ban)

[@wowie2358]

@@Fenges0106 the thing with smash is that it's a party game first and foremost so they're far more likely to pander to casual players than tournament players

[@DoMorrMusic]

13:29 i was wondering when Steve would be mentioned. his dash attack is his worst move imo and it’s not even bad.

[@aronspiker72]

His up special would have been his worst move before that extremely broken recovery angle was discovered (broken relative to how limited and janky his vertical recovery is otherwise)

[@nothingherezero7182]

Nah one word nair

[@themarioking7127]

@@nothingherezero7182 easily turns around neutral if he's getting comboed, especially with gold.

[@Myst1c_OW]

@@nothingherezero7182 dude nair combos

[@dabiskitt]

I think it highly depends on the risk of playing the character overall and the amount of reward the character seems to get from the move. People don’t get too mad about rest because jigglypuff is super light, has no true recovery, has relatively poor kill options (mainly on the ground) and cannot be shield broken without immediate death. Rest is less of a gimicky bit of pressure added to her, and more of a saving grace. The reason why Little Mac’s KO punch or Kazuya’s Demon Rage Dive seem much more polarizing is because these characters already have great kill moves that kill rather early. Their risk of not being able to kill is quite low. Adding a move that can kill in the low double digits does not mitigate their risks as much as it adds to their already overwhelming rewards.

[@Manganization]

Mac's KO punch drives me up a wall. It doesn't help that it must be dodged or rolled otherwise you're screwed It's not fun losing a stock to this move and outrunning Mac is hard.

[@juniperrodley9843]

The only reason I don't have a bigger issue with Rage Drive is that it really just doesn't add all that much to Kazuya's kit. It's a command grab, which seems crazy, but command grabs are only special if you have ways of pressuring the opponent into shielding. Between his heavy shield damage, EWGF forcibly downing your shield, and his normal grab being so terrifying, why would you ever default to shield against Kazuya? Basically, Rage Drive only hits where other attacks would as well, and getting hit by those is also a death sentence.

[@DANCERcow]

Oh gee oh the horror! Imagine being forced to used the games mechanics of dodging and rolling, who knew you had to do that to evade attacks! Oh me oh my what ever shall I do to be forced to play the game and be forced to play a certain way against different characters! Oh no oh the humanity! Meanwhile cloud's finish touch hits on both sides and cloud doesn't even need to engage to aquire it, can't be rolled so compared to ko punch you lose an evasive option! But Mac's punch is a real problem! Lmao

[@sirdabsalot1yt83]

@@DANCERcow Cloud's finishing touch can be shielded, can't be easily combo'd into, doesn't kill at 20, is relatively slow, has poor reach, is heavily outweighed by superior alternative options (namely limit cross slash), and can be stalled out due to the fact that limit break now has a timer in ultimate. You're insane if you think finishing touch is anywhere near as good as KO punch. There's a reason Mac mains will always go for KO punch 2-3 times every single game, while Cloud mains hardly ever use finishing touch (despite having access to limit break far more often than Mac has access to KO punch).

[@Manganization]

@@DANCERcow Cloud's finishing touch doesn't KO you from zero, he doesn't have Litle-Mac's mobility, and Finishing Touch is laugably easy to avoid. These are not the same comparisons. Little Mac might be a bad character but his KO Punch isn't easy to avoid, since Mac is pretty quick on his feet and it can't be blocked.

[@kwayke9]

4:01 Rest can actually kill at 0% under certain conditions in Melee. Major reason why it ended up getting nerfed in later games. It was actually terrible in 4, for example (so was Jiggly as a whole, but still, 20% is nothing for this kind of move)

[@AshenDemon]

3:00 Bro Falcon Punch ain't no one hit KO it does the same damage as charge shot. It should kill at 0 but it doesn't it kills at like 60. Falcon Punch is reward is outwayed by the risk.

[@grahamflatt5838]

"Ike who rarely get shield breaks" Ike mains would like to have a word with their ledge traps

[@ghosthunter0950]

Falcon punch and Warlock punch are fair because if I get hit by them I just straight up deserve to lose the stock. But then there's little macs' ko punch Wario's waft and Kazuya's ___, They have safe ways to guarantee hitting you with it if they get certain hits. so people don't like those moves because you don't really "deserve" to lose an entire stock from getting hit by little mac's down tilt or wario's nair... you get the point.

[@koltrainz]

With KO punch there isn't any one guaranteed way to land it at any percent tho, and knocking KO punch out is incredibly easy

[@ghosthunter0950]

@@koltrainz down tilt can combo into it at some points, also up tilt, sometimes jab and even fsmash angled up. And both dtilt and utilt can create at least 50/50s at a really high percent range that are even hard to react to, not to mention it bypasses shield. There are enough ways to hit it. There is enough reason not to like the move. And "avoiding it is easy" isn't an argument without evidence or it being glaringly obvious like falcon punch. good mac's hit it at least once per round even if you're playing amazing.

[@koltrainz]

@@ghosthunter0950 And it's super easy to knock out with a stray hit or disjointed hit box or projectile. Like KO punch requires the bare minimum effort to get rid of while requiring knowledge on ever single character and percent you are fighting to use

[@aegishdaego]

@@koltrainz I guess it will be easy if the mac doesn't know what he do, but if he know the game as much as you do it won't be that easy to dodge his punch, especially with a framedata as good as his. Mac isn't as bad as people think, he just lose some MU rly hard.

[@kohai-kun9261]

I'd argue that what sets Smash/platform brawlers apart from more traditional fighters is that there are more factors that contribute to the outcome of any given situation -- *not* that they have "uncertainty". For instance, you mention that some moves kill at X percent sometimes, and other times they don't; that's not uncertainty, that's just a failure to account for all of the contributing factors. The same move, connecting with the same hitbox, on the same character/percent, at the same location on the stage, with the same DI, *will* result in the same trajectory every single time. In that sense, it's not so much that the outcome is uncertain, but rather that the player is tasked with keeping track of more factors/considering more parts when predicting the outcome of a given situation. It's part of what gives Smash its depth -- and a large part of what seperates players like, say, Mew2King, with a borderline encyclopedic level of game knowledge, from your average pot monster at your average local. Implying that these outcomes are random is misleading, IMO. They may require a greater degree of game knowledge to correctly identify, but that's not the same thing as them being "uncertain".

[@snowwolf342]

It isn't an opinion that saying the outcomes are random is misleading, it *is* misleading. Smash isn't Pokémon where there is a 0.85 to 1.00 modifier to each attack that gives you damage variance, there is no damage variance. Every knockback and its scaling is set, and every damage is set. I can lab combos and have them work in real fights. If there was randomness, people would drop out of combos for no reason, when the only combos we drop out of is auto combos with janky hit boxes that don't always connect due to percentage, speed, size, etc. Many factors affect it giving the illusion of randomness, but there is no uncertainty. Well, aside from literal RNG moves.

[@jaioncebollero1168]

It’s obviously still way more random then any real fighting game and that was is point…. I feel as if you wasted your time typing all that. You knew what he meant

[@esbluetheprototype]

@@jaioncebollero1168 Yeah, we know what he meant which is why we know he's wrong. To YOU there's probably several platform fighter mechanics that seem like random BS but for us, it's something we can lab. It's kind of like people who are not scientists and don't believe the results of a study simply because they don't understand the science, versus somebody that actually does science and can replicate those results in the lab.

[@TimelostGamer]

I like how almost every move he talked about was technically not a 1 hit kill.

[@cuchutrain]

"falcon punch will knock out mid-weights at about 50%" If you have to be at 50% to KO, its probably not a 1 hit KO

[@danielryu7009]

*points gun* you like hero?! Name all of their ohko moves!

[@rngesus967]

Alright then, if you insist… -Crit F-Smash -Crit Up-Smash -Crit D-Smash -Full-Charge Neutral-B -Full-Charge Side-B -Whack -Thwack -Metal Slash (Against Metal opponents) -Hatchet Man - Magic Burst (Full MP) - Basically any move when you have Psyche Up and Oomph -Kamikazee -Hocus Pocus (When you get any of the ohko spells mentioned above) -Basically any move when you become big (by using Hocus Pocus)

[@IbrahimAmer-rq6mv]

Ness's pk thunder 2 is also one hit k.o aswell ss pk flash but pk flash is slow tho

[@obijuandy-liacco328]

This is me being ULTRA picky and stuff, but calling any of these moves One-Hit KOs really bothers me cos almost none of these moves just automatically take stocks at 0%. Just like how you mentioned Pyra Dair Upsmash is a two hit killer, its not different from other characters who have to confirm into their kill moves like Wario's Up Tilt Waft, which will not kill at 0% either. You still need to work for damage and THEN hit the move, not just hit the move and win the game. Everyone in this game can virtually kill sub 30% given the right circumstances, albeit not very consistently, but I think these "One Hit KOs" are really just smash attacks turned up to 11; a way to kill the opponent that is punishable if whiffed. These just kill earlier and more often than not have ways of confirming into them. I wouldn't consider Wolf doing anything into Flash a OHKO, same as I wouldn't consider Waft a OHKO move. But that's just my rant on the definition, I do understand the kinda moves this video is referring to.

[@ExSuPiO1]

You're not being picky at all mate, Vars is just flat out wrong about his terminology with OHKO moves

[@mac_chappy]

I'm surprised Shulk's Smash Art wasn't mentioned. As a Shulk main I've killed people from 0-50 multiple times.

[@silaspq]

because its not one hit k o move, you need to use it to buff shulks other moves that already exist.

[@nicocchi]

oh it wasn't mentioned but it was absolutely shown… backfiring as a Kazuya killed Shulk at like 40%

[@seejoshrun1761]

I would argue that most of the moves you mention aren't really OHKO moves. Early kill moves, sure. But a true OHKO move should kill at 0 percent in at least some cases. We could stretch that to "moves that kill relatively often below 30%" or something like that, which would include stuff like KO Punch and Judge, maybe Rest.

[@jouaienttoi]

It's not even an argument, he is just wrong and misusing the term.

[@Ai-jr4ou]

No thoughts on this one, here is a comment though. Never heard of the conditions 2:25 of an OHKO though thought it was just actual kill at zero/combo-death at zero moves. Which I guess makes Luigi grab an OHKO (If it was one hit). Maybe I should stop talking about Luigi I don't play that character.

[@soapdude68.9]

I was surprised to see judge not talked about as much but it’s understandable because you never know if you’re gonna just delete the opponent at 5%

[@bolladragon]

The music is giving me war flashbacks to the amount of times I ran Drowned City to get that healer top on to realize Endwalker had a dye-able recolor of the Skallic sets as gear I could just buy at level 84.

[@pabloquindos513]

"In normal situations Rayquaza doesn't have overwhelming power to one shot every member on your team" That's literally it's job

[@EnbyNomad]

Vars, I would love to see you cover MultiVersus if you like the game. Id love to see your analysis on the fighters.

[@AshenDemon]

I feel like that game will be irrelevant in like a month or two so...

[@oneslickhero4276]

@@AshenDemon i think it will be around for a while its free to play those games take alot longer to die then most games

[@SourSalty]

4:24 melee Roy can kill Jiggs, pichu, G&W and Kirby at 0% battlefield/pokémon stadium by using b reversed up b. The first hit has a 200 knock back which automatically kills those characters on lower ceiling stages.

[@Scorpio7500]

Almost impossible to land tho lol

[@juniperrodley9843]

That fact is always so funny to me. They gave the starting hitboxes of multhits ludicrous knockback to make them more consistent, but it didn't actually make them consistent enough, and just ended up turning them into ridiculous (but hard) kill moves.

[@Scorpio7500]

@@juniperrodley9843 give a mouse a cookie and he'll turn it into a cc mixup nightmare

[@ze_darku_magician5504]

I love the fe fates music you use in your videos. Works really well.

[@kculzsinet]

1:53 I raise you unaware pokemon

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

Kazuya is a walking super armor. A lot of his moves seem unfair.

[@aronspiker72]

And infuriatingly, he doesn't even need 90% of his kit because electric is just that much better than nearly any other anything in the game

[@AshenDemon]

​@@aronspiker72 Sakurai added the Electric for brokeness in high level and everything else for brokeness at low level.

[@juniperrodley9843]

Honestly? Rage Drive is probably the least objectionable move on his kit. It's strong, but limited, and it barely gives him any extra pressuring ability. The rest of his moveset is a LOT stupider IMO

[@bold3166]

%1000 agree, bowser to btw

[@AshenDemon]

@@juniperrodley9843 Honeslty rage drive is better for the opponent. If he didn't have it he could actually grab meaning they take 40% instead of 90% and a stock loss

[@ShioOtanashi]

That steve comment at the end fucking killed me XD

[@Meikyu1]

I can't help but have to ask. Is that FF14 OST used for background music? It's so familiar it is bothering me as I'm playing FF14 at the sametime!! XD

[@branman968]

I will say that Chrom and Roy's Flare Blade do have a decently practical use as a strong 2 frame option on recovering opponents. It has so little end lag that you can use it and continue with their top tier ledgetrapping

[@Sprocket_777]

I use flareblade all the time, it is kinda unfair sometimes.

[@rofl-rocket277]

Also quick note some of these aren't ohko. C-falc for example has to work on a bit for such a move. Also falcon punch and, many other attacks like it are built into the a move set and, for the psychological aspect of smash and, should not be included in the list of ohko moves. There is a lot of psychological game play that a lot of people miss. Most people unfortunately only sees and, plays smash on its surface level.

[@antAstir]

Can anyone please tell me the name of the background music?

[@ivolopez-felix5270]

So awesome when you bring up YGO in comparisons with smash

[@Xearrik]

Yes, and no. The risk must equal the reward for it to be fair and hype instead of lame and cheap. The ones like Little Mac's KO Punch are unfun and unfair gimmicks. It's unfun/unfair to get hit by KO Punch, and it's unfun and feels like cheating to land one. I don't feel like I earned a win if I had to use a lame insta-KO move comeback mechanic thing. The argument of "he needs it" is bad. He only needs it because he was designed in a way to make him need it. They could have made him a real character insted of making him "need" super armour and insta-KO comback mechanics. Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch are huge hard reads. They're earned and hype moments. I have mixed feelings about Rest. Because you can combo into Rest, it doesn't feel as hype. It does have a high risk/reward, but only if used as a hard read instead of a true combo. I have respect for the Rest reads but don't like the Rest combos.

[@Moss_Dude]

Mac has to earn the fuck out of his KO punch I don't know what you're talking about

[@Xearrik]

@@Moss_Dude No

[@Player-dw3pe]

@@Moss_Dude I don't know what character you are playing lmao. He absolutely does not.

[@Moss_Dude]

@@Player-dw3pe It is so pathetically easy to lose it, every time I see peanut with it he doesn't actually hit it in like 70% of his games.

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

@@Moss_Dude L comment 🌚

[@3chodraco]

When you fight max aura lucario, who dies is determined by who lands the next hit, it's not just FP, it's all his moves

[@mysoulhurts5955]

7:53 Yeeaahhhh the thing is Lucario doesn't usually exist that long to reach max aura.

[@supabigsteve3969]

Pyras forward smash, i just remember being hit by it and having decent DI at the edge and dying at 15. From that point on I am scared as fuck when playing against pyra

[@jkattack2640]

Little tidbit hidden in the movesets: every character in ultimate has some kind of passive, even if it's negative or extremely minor. Mythra's is foresight, etc. Pyra's is "fsmash is really strong"

[@wiggly3440]

I’m surprised that you didn’t talk about ness and Lucas up B lucases has less launch power but still have the special zoom in and nesses kills at like 30 they are gimmicky but not hard to use as it’s their recovery move but people often don’t acknowledge them when talking about 1-hit KO moves you see syrup use it frequently he use up B when juggling and then use the strong variant to punish landings so it’s kinda balanced

[@senarodrigo]

Why wasn't Ness's PK thunder 2 mentioned?

[@darkraven5626]

Is that the Drowned City of Skalla playing in the background? Mans has one of my favorite soundtracks from FFXIV in use and I never thought anyone would ever use it for their vids. Very cool.

[@IYPITWL]

Luigi up+b shriek is one of my fav things to land.

[@aneonfoxtribute]

Surprised you didn't also mention Failnaught when you were talking about Byleth.

[@aronspiker72]

Because failnaught is not only weaker then most of the other moves in this video even when fully charged, but only the fully charged version actually resembles those types of moves and you can cancel it anytime before you start the phase 2 charge which isn't even that much longer than the an average slow smash attack so the risk for whiffing is quite a bit lower whereas Sephiroth's giga flare on the other hand takes almost as long to charge as Roy's Neutral b and while you can cancel it at any point before it fully charged to my knowledge, if you charge it at all when not using it for B reverses, cancelling it will likely be too little too late as they have plenty of time to rush at you before the move is capable of doing something threatening

[@AshenDemon]

Failnaught is not a one hit ko it doesn't even kill at 50

[@juniperrodley9843]

Beyond kill percentages, Failnaught is more comparable to a smash attack than a typical OHKO. It's certainly _capable_ of hitting like a meteor, but only if you charge it for an obscene amount of time. It's almost never used like that, and instead just shot without charge.

[@KLIXORthe]

the criteria for OHKO are interesting. I don't think many people consider end lag or startup, though those are important in the context of this video.

[@gasstationsushi1999]

The best one hit KO will always be Luigi’s down taunt

[@salfoyer2411]

At the start of this series, you had 6k subs, no you are at 19.1k, you are growing fast

[@kindasomeviews]

i believe we failed to differentiate between moves with high kill power, which you might as well count all smash attacks there, and actual one hit kills, which are ones that just kill at 0% from just landing. Namely, 200% Lucario F-Smash, Roy's & Chrom's fully charged Neutral-B, and most of whatever Kazuya reflects (cuz he buffs them)

[@ccsleepy8342]

So many of the moves named here have never caused problems for me. You know what moves annoy me? Stuff with high damage, few starting frames and little ending lag. That stuff annoys me way more than any one hit KO move ever could.

[@sionbarzad5371]

Flimsy definition because none of these kill in one hit from 0% and many more moves can kill you at higher percentage which puts in question of how much % before you can get ko'ed by an OHKO or ''normal'' moves and where does the dividing line between them considering the flimsy naming and definition. Also, to people complaining about them, if you have trouble with gimmicks that's called a skill issue, face it and learn the game instead of complaining and being the emo smasher that no one likes.

[@Imirui]

to me the premiere “one hit ko move” is roy’s flare blade, which will one hit anyone at 0% on nearly every stage that isn’t absurdly massive. with full charge it will one hit everyone. the problem is it takes like 2 seconds to reach full charge and deals 10-12% to you when it’s immediately released at full.

[@armorbearer9702]

It is nice that these one hit KO moves are usable. I like to see fighters using every tool in their kit to win.

[@tablecork]

IDK Jiggs upthrow -> rest and ICs wobbling in Melee were far more obnoxious then anything in Ult iMO

[@k___________]

"and then you have steve"

[@agentblade04]

Even with all this ssbu is still more balanced than Splatoon 2

[@rngesus967]

He forgot Mii Brawler Exploding Side Kick smh my head Jokes aside, love that content. Keep it up :)

[@tryhardpenguin9636]

That move is actually overpowered. I use it while edge guarding and the match just ends

[@AshenDemon]

Bruh that does like 20%. Is faster than most of these type of moves and is literally designed to be a practicle Falcon Punch. I land that move all the time. It's not a OHKO not even close. Doesn't even kill at 70%

[@AshenDemon]

@@tryhardpenguin9636 It's not broken. You must fight a lot of bad players.

[@rngesus967]

@@AshenDemon So I’m guessing you simply forgot to read the part that mentioned that my comment was a joke?

[@AshenDemon]

@@rngesus967 Was talking to the other guy.

[@caseydotmp4585]

I just found your videos a couple days ago. I don’t even own a Nintendo switch and I’m awful at fighting games. This stuff is super dope and still interesting though.

[@levibruner7553]

My opinion: Moves that are hard to hit (like falcon punch with its long startup or rest with its small hitbox), charge over time (like KO punch), or leave you at a serious disadvantage when missed (like rest and KO [if you use it near ledge while moving, you can SD]) are fine. They are high risk, high reward and don't kill at zero. Even Ike's neutral B is fine because it takes forever even though it kills at zero. However, any move that has long range (Byleth's Bow), kills at zero (Byleths Bow), or is health dependent (like Terry's moves, not like Lucario which is just a damage and knockback buff rather than moves that kill) are just stupid. Even worse is Thwack, no punishment, startup, its not hard to hit, it doesn't leave you at a disadvantage, and it is hard to see.

[@anonymousmonkey9491]

1:52 ratata with the FEAR set: try me.

[@pizzamaster3282]

What is the game at 1:41 ?

[@TheEmperorGulcasa]

I feel like ohko and functionally ohko moves like Electric Wind God Fist are fine if they are balanced around properly. Generally they should be high risk high reward. Like stuff like Rest are incredibly lethal but if you miss you are very vulnerable and open for the opponent to kill you instead. Moves that have huge startup like Falcon Punch tend to realistically be awful yolo moves that are more a waste of a move slot in competitive or something for a desperation hail mary. They are fun in party settings for their chaos but they are underwhelming in competitive. As far as special ohkos like ko punch and such, I think they are fine if they have counterplay. If you can knock your opponent out of having it by playing well and they aren't totally free to land, then it's fine. KO punch is fine because mac is usually a fairly easy character to deal with, the punch can be gimped and he doesn't have too many easy ways to ensure it lands. Cloud's limit finishing touch is pretty hard to lead into. Limit can also be timed out, baited, or forced out like by sending him off stage and forcing an up b. Probably the one I hate the most design wise is Waft. It has no counterplay since it even accumulates between stocks, it's not that risky even when missed and it even had a lot of guaranteed setups into it originally. You were originally basically guaranteed to lose one stock to it and it was on a strong character without it. I don't think most of them are really the problems of their respective characters currently though. Like Kazuya's rage drive is a nice powerful comeback mechanic, but it's not that bad to deal with. It's his other pseudo instant kill in Electric Wind God Fist that's the problem. Spammable low risk instant win.

[@AshenDemon]

Sakurai wasn't really going for good design with Kazuya or with any of the DLC. He was going for subtle pay to win.

[@TheEmperorGulcasa]

@@AshenDemon I think plenty of the DLC was at least fine. Banjo, Sora, Plant, Byleth were all pretty ordinary. Terry and Sephiroth despite having strong comeback mechanics also aren't that broken. Minmin had some questionable choices, but hasn't shown herself to be invincible so much as a hard counter to some matchups. Some characters get crushed, but she's very beatable by plenty of others. Hero has some jank with menu but is otherwise fairly inoffensive. Even Aegis and Joker, despite being very strong are still strong in sort of the same fundamental ways as classic characters. You still need to have good fundamentals and they have weaknesses. To me the DLC biggest questions are Kazuya and Steve. Steve has so many mechanics that still have nearly limitless growth potential for finding BS as well as so many just straight powerful tools with little downside. Kazuya has potentially a one hit kill at any percent by just landing his one electric. Electric is a bit hard to do consistently and his neutral is not that good without it, but it's such a touch of death scenario that it makes fighting him terrifying and puts all the burden of constant outplays and skill on the opponent while the Kazuya just spams their one kill or two instant win buttons.

[@juniperrodley9843]

Also note, for Cloud, Finishing Touch is competing with other very good options. He could yolo and spend his limit on Finishing Touch, but he could instead go with the more consistent Cross Slash, the longer-range Blade Beam, or the better OOS Climb Hazard. Or he could just keep it, since the mobility granted by full limit is amazing.

[@soga8010]

Low subscriber count with high subscriber quality content? The algorithm is finally doing a great job of promoting the really small channels. Here to see you grow Vars!

[@brandtmichael3868]

Depending on the moveset I'm pretty sure Ferothorn can take a fully boosted ray hit with full defense investment Also Marshadow would destroy Rayquaza with it's priority gimmick move that steals stat boosts. (actually I can't remember if that move has priority) I think Skarmory and Corviknight also survive OHKO with the former having Sturdy. Not that they'd be much help anyways lmao

[@Stefinater]

Tipper F-Smash also feels like cheating sometimes.

[@juniperrodley9843]

I disagree. If you get hit by the tip of Byleth's F-Smash, you got read *hard*

[@studentwhoworries]

The roof is not my son but I will raise it

[@ivrydice0954]

If you're dying to a single Bayo combo in ult you got outplayed.

[@NightRaven5568]

That or you have REALLY bad SDI or are playing a HUGE character unless you meant literally and not ironically.

[@minifigamer9898]

1:49 clearly you've never heard of the move "topsy-turvy"

[@mawsphore7072]

incins revenge is not by any means a one hit ko, it's just a percent multiplier on your next hit, to get the absurd alolan whip one shot on someone at 40% you need to revenge a very big hit or at least two small hits (so two revenges) to get the max multiplier which is x3, then you need to land a big hit yourself like a smash or the alolan whip, without landing any other hit before because that will consume the revenge, so no setup allowed, and you can't get grabbed because that cancels the revenge buff which means you just took 10% from your own counter for nothing and maybe did 5% with the flames from winning an interaction. Now if you're on the border of the stage and land the big hit it will do 70 ~ 75% and maybe kill if the opponent has at least 40% already, and you took damage to get there because revenge still makes you take some of the damage of the hit. also since incin is the slowest character in the game, everyone and their mother can camp him and wait for revenge to just run out after 30 seconds or something (every hit that incin throws during that timer lowers the timer by the way). revenge is a pretty balanced move considering all that. and it's fun as hell too.

[@ThatRedHusky]

Unless I'm blind, I'm surprised you didn't mention Ness' PK Flash.

[@Nokyyyyy]

Byleth's failnaught beam go pew

[@st4pps]

Surprised u didn't count melee and brawl ice climbers or brawl grab loops giving multiple characters 1 grab kos

[@briangruenewald7536]

13:29 “Then you get Steve” 😂

[@zumirelix]

Left splits kick should get a shout out though.

[@edonkrasniqi9577]

0:25 bro’s in his anime destroy mode 💀💀💀

[@richardszoghy1907]

Im halfway and Luigi's Down taunt havent been mentioned yet. I hope it will be.

[@AshenDemon]

Luigi down taunt doesn't kill at zero.

[@themidnightotaku22]

🤔😒😧Was somebody else talking about 1-hit K.O. Moves in Smash?...

[@TheReZisTLust]

Gogeta SS4 from fighterz and Saibamen from one of the Budokai I think are the only characters who can one shot as far as I can tell.

[@discreet6951]

I think it’s much more akin to MMA than sumo Tbh. Sumo has a set outcome by pushing (damaging) your opponent over the course of the match until inevitably pushing them out of the ring ( depleting health bar ) where as MMA, and boxing for that matter, a match can go the distance (high percents) or be ended in a single punch or well placed counter (successful edge guard or mix up with bad DI).

[@cloviepounders6703]

Kazuya, terry etc all take damage or lose/fall behind to gain their function. It's a comeback mechanic. Lil mac technically does too but its justifiable as a one shot because getting "hit" loses it and you gain it from not losing as well. I'd even say lucario is comeback mechanic. Luigi, jiggs, ganon (and baby ganon) all have a power hit but not really a one shot. I suppose you could include them with a stretching of the definition. I don't consider giga flare for the same reason i exclude charge shot or shadow ball. Honestly i suppose you could just reclassify the topic and just say "hype move" instead of one shot. It seems more applicable given the variety of strategies and affectations of each character.

[@PlumEXE]

13:08 EWGF, Monado arts?

[@Marcuskwok-hn5yi]

One hit ok move it’s more like dlc adventage

[@evilded2]

9:31 see this is what we in the FGC call footsies.

[@DiegoG2004]

4:34 *shows Luigi killing at exactly 80% from the top*

[@Sprocket_777]

80.3 mind you

[@DiegoG2004]

@@Sprocket_777 Ah

[@TheManaPrism]

I love your videos, but could you add subtitles ? English isn't my native language and when I miss a word I get easily lost since you speak fast

[@nathanlevesque7812]

'unreasonably low percents' Oh good, another vague abstraction used as a placeholder for feelings.

[@vbarreiro]

Okay I’m curious how good this would be: A character that can’t do no attacks except jab, and that jab is as strong as a falcon punch. Character can’t even up-b and has zero aerials (but can dodge and roll). Would it be an OP, or trash character? Discuss.

[@ln8496]

Cant jab in the air. Trash and bad character design. If you interact then you lose to it, if you run away and platform camp a char or has a lagless rest for a jab, theyll never get a chance to touch you A good example is melee ice climbers. Their jab combos into a wobble if you dont have insane sdi and anticipation

[@zaito2558]

You forgot Luigi down taunt, best 1 hit ko in the game

[@juniperrodley9843]

op pls nerf

[@bold3166]

Y e s

[@renatoramos8834]

Simple problem: it's broken.

[@bullettime1116]

Ah yes falcon punch the peak of broken

[@boks02_]

Okay but that Yu-Gi-Oh guy was cool af

[@zumirelix]

Highly disagree with these criteria. Curious where you got them. Also your first example being falcon punch is odd. I’ve never heard anyone describe that as an OHKO. Warlock punch, sure but idk about falcon punch.

[@FinnMclaughlin-v5k]

Yo I was clicking this and didn't expect to mention my favorite game yugioh

[@0ctopusComp1etely]

I judge that if a move can kill in one hit at zero percent.... that's a OHKO. Because that's the definition. That's the ONLY definition. Personally, THOSE are what I have issues with, along with some "exclusive character" comeback mechanics. Or at least the ones seemingly designed to have no counter-play. There's a lot of moves and mechanics that come close to being as frustrating to fight against, but there's nothing quite as upsetting as getting Little Mac down to his last stock and having him on the brink of death, only to lose at no damage on your own last stock cause he gets an unblockable one-hit wonder and you don't, purely because of the character you like to play. Feel free to replace Mac with Kazuya. I get Smash likes to "truly represent" its fighters, which is fantastic, and I get that it's going to include unique mechanics in some cases. Fine. But I don't think that homage that should come with the ability to delete an opponent's stock just cause you exist.

[@anothenblue2630]

Little Mac isn't even accurate to the games. On the contrary, he's the exact opposite of Punch Out. If he tried fighting the same way there, he'd lose to Glass Joe. *Glass Joe*. He really should be more like Sheik with exactly zero armor and below average damage output.

[@bobert555555]

Hero being able to one shot at 0 with a crit smash (10:45) is still such a balance oversight it isn’t even funny.

[@Darth1Marik]

Hmm alot of weird conditions for OHKO like if it hits you at 0% and gets you off the stage and lose a stock by hitting the edge thats a OHKO pure and simple. it doesn't need all those strange requirements you made. Falcon Punch is not a OHKO. Very few moves are and to my knowledge in Melee Roy's Flare Blade was the only attack that could land fully charged and hit someone at 0% and would KO them no matter where they were on the stage with the exception of the giant Hyrule stage that could get could pinballed in that underground area. It would KO lightweights and heavyweights no matter what. THATS a OHKO. Anything else is just a powerful move that CAN KO but the character has to have some level of damage.

[@ThirtyfourEC]

Main job(s) in FFXIV?

[@honorablejudgecoinberg1788]

This game is nearly unplayable. 9/10 games I play against cpu I am hit only one time- and it’s always a one hit knock out. Is there a special setting I need to change? I’m beating up on characters and then just get a one hit “GAME” ko on me instantly.

[@vbarreiro]

OMG THAT’S FFXIV MUSIC. PLEASE do videos like, Why Everyone Plays NIN or Why No One Plays DRK

[@snowwolf342]

I don't understand why you say Smash and other platform fighters have more uncertainty. They don't have more than traditional fighters do, barring certain moves. Why one character or playet is not killed by a move when another character or player does is based purely on factors known by the players. Character weight, attack direction, stage position and most importantly DI. Players with high skill in reacting to moves and DI appropriately live longer by virtue of skill, not random chance. The random factors come only from moves with random factors, such as GnW Hammer, Hero's Smashes, etc. And this is no different from other Fighting Games' random chance moves like random item spammers in other games. What makes Smash different is stage positioning, no other fighting game genre has crucial stage control and positioning like platform fighters. Other fighting games it only matters if you are close to the wall or not, stage control matters in a sense of approach and fighting style, zoners like to keep distance and grapplers want to be close up. But for Smash stage control and positioning also determines your survival, farther from the blast zone, farther from the edge and you live more often than you don't.

[@anothenblue2630]

Essentially, if a move connects in a traditional fighting game while the enemy's health is low, they are dead as long as the attacker doesn't mess up. The enemy has zero input on anything aside from combo breakers. In Smash, Marth hitting Mario with FAir can lead to many different scenarios depending on how the enemy responds. It operates by a specific set of rules, but neither party actually knows what will happen next, only what they should be doing and what may happen if things go a certain way. It's like starting a conversation. Even if you have a very specific topic and you both know each other, you have absolutely no way of predicting the whole conversation even if it's technically possible (just not feasible at the moment).

[@snowwolf342]

@@anothenblue2630 The thing is, it still isn't uncertain. Neither party may know what happens next, but that goes for all FGs with any mixups. In Smash, I know where my FAir can kill and where it cannot, I know what options you have to survive the blow or not. In other FGs, I know when my combo can kill, and I also know the options you have to mitigate the blow. Every FG is uncertain in that sense since you have to react to my play. To be clear, in Smash, if I hit you with FAir, the only many outcomes is based on your reaction to my FAir. If I hit a dummy with a FAir at the same percent and same stage location every time, I will get the exact result every time. This is why labbing and combos even exist, why I know exactly at 50 to 70% I can use the 3 hit combo I have practiced and it will hit reliably always. In other FGs and in Smash, how you react to my attack changes the outcome. Your analogy works with other FGs as well, when I hit you with a topic, I never know which of the answers you will choose. In Smash there is no random bee that changes our conversation making it unpredictable, our conversation in Smash or in Tekken will be similar. I cannot predict our conversation in Tekken any more than I can in Smash. The only way that is possible is if you say all FGs other than Smash Bros are solved games.

[@anothenblue2630]

@@snowwolf342 mixups are uncertain in both cases, but what happens when you land a hit is not. You either mess up a combo or it goes through in standard FGs, there's nothing to consider beyond your own resources and what you want (damage, corner carry, etc). When that happens in Smash, that uncertainty still remains. Sure, your FAir might be more likely to kill at 100%, but before that? Your combo could end right there or continue further based on what the enemy does, which is almost never possible in FGs. Tech chases and chain throws are all about it. It's not that FGs have no uncertainty. They have less of it than Smash since it's completely non-interactive the moment you get past neutral, but DI keeps that interactivity in a lesser form.

[@snowwolf342]

@@anothenblue2630 DI is still not uncertainty. Again, this concept of uncertainty is weird, because a player DIs does not mean the game is uncertain. DI is simply a player affecting the game. What happens after you hit is consistent, enemy DI in is the same if the enemy DI in at the same percent. It is not *uncertain*, if you cannot account for DI you have simply failed to account for your enemy's defensive options. That's like saying parrying makes the game uncertain, if you hit a block the game is as it should be but a parry completely upends this. Your argument only shows that Smash has more defensive depth than just Block, Parry, or Dodge. DI is a defensive option.

[@anothenblue2630]

@@snowwolf342 but it IS uncertainty. So you DThrow someone. What do you do next? Grab again? They might DI up and if you go for a grab, you might get kicked in the face on whiff. They could also DI down and if you try to attack them, you'll hit them with the wrong hitbox. You can't wait and see because you might end up being late for something big. While effects of DI are consistent, what's not consistent is how it's used, you can't bet on the enemy DI-ing in every time you hit them with the same attack on the same part of the stage. And that's just DI. There's also edgeguarding, tech chasing (which is more common in FGs these days, but it works differently), mashing (while it's technically set, it's still entirely on the enemy's part and not yours). If you don't know what exactly will happen next, that's uncertainty, period. Parrying is also uncertain, but it's a part of neutral and neutral is always uncertain even in FGs. Smash has more of it because interactions don't stop after neutral.

[@renatoramos8834]

1:53 cough Ditto.

[@cashnelson2306]

ffxiv music is an interesting and distracting choice lol

[@just_hage8862]

Kazuya tipper f smash at ledge kills soooo early

[@k-leb4671]

I thought a one-hit KO was simply a move that could kill opponents at 0% from the stage. So in other words, the opponent only got hit once in their entire stock. What are all these criteria you're talking about?