The Problem With Sonic In Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[@SadToffee]

the whole smash community is learning why tf eggman got so pressed over a blue hedgehog.

[@faded9581]

Bro that's what I've been saying. From Eggman's perspective, every single boss fight is the equivalent of fighting a campy Sonic...around 8 times a game. For over 30 goddamn years I'd be mad as hell too

[@obsessionsofthevoid]

​@@faded9581 I mean, recently Eggman has been the one camping

[@carlosargueta8037]

Fr

[@MetaGamingDojo]

now we know how doctor eggman feels!🤣

[@captainmega6310]

Eggman gotta put up with that asshole for years now we're stuck with him

[@rodrigos7070]

What i hate is that out of all the cast, the timeout character had to be Sonic. It feels so counterintuitive to his canon.

[@Sawcybui]

Ikr. Timing out in his games literally results in death

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Sawcybui Classic Sonic games have always been speed being the reward for good platforming. Meaning that Sonic is a platform character first and a speed character second. Sonic boss fights are about avoiding their attacks until they expose a weak point. That is exactly what Sonic is in Smash, the opponents try to keep up Sonic and when they make a mistake, Sonic can easily overwhelm them. If you want something that represents how Sonic can flow in levels, I think MOB Smash does a pretty good job at that.

[@raimyonlinewarrior236]

Shame if his tool kit would change, people would also get angry over it but it's honestly neccessary.

[@LegendaryCryBaby2338]

@rodrigo it is.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@raimyonlinewarrior236 Sakurai tends to overly simplify characters for the sake of balance. For example, in Smash 4 Sonic had a custom move Called the flaming Spindash. It's a reference to the flaming summersault from SA2, that is amazing attention to detail🧐🧐🧐🧐. Sadly it didn't return for the new game😥😥😥.

[@Erokingu]

Fun Fact, Sonic walk faster (1.444) that Ganondorf can run (1.34)

[@johanruiz3422]

Right lol

[@Sandux930]

That makes sense ganon is a million pounds 🤣

[@LegendaryCryBaby2338]

@@Sandux930 Bowser is an 8 ton fire breathing turtle... Most the weight on his shell I bet. Ganon has no excuse.

[@jormungandrtheserpentsaint1414]

@Legendary CryBaby and I believe bowser is the 20th fastest character in the game...faster than Robin. This game is nonsense 💀

[@JazzoBeat]

​@@jormungandrtheserpentsaint1414 fr, and sephiroth is light as Pichu, nothing makes sense

[@AshBlossomWorshiper]

What's crazy is that Sonic truely didnt pop off untill the wifi wars during covid. Once people picked him up, they couldnt put him back down. Bro was given an inch and TOOK A MILE

[@mandalorianhunter1]

Not gonna lie with this, people were struggling to use the character despite him not being destroyed. I'm a former Sonic player though I will play with him from time to time and even 6WX wasn't doing well. I agree and Sonix is the most consistent Sonic. I have met and known Sonido and Wrath for years, yet they aren't doing as consistently well as in the Smash 4 days

[@sionbarzad5371]

Sonic was always recognized as one of the best wifi characters even pre covid

[@odukomaster5473]

I mean that's kinda what happens when you're that fast lol.

[@ToadetteTails6969]

Well, Sonic is the fastest thing alive. So, I was expecting him to take a mile in half a second. Honestly, I'm just joking around at this point. Besides, *No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me.* (Bonus points if you get the reference)

[@ToadetteTails6969]

@@odukomaster5473 You got that right.

[@marrysounds]

Seriously I agree with Tweek, when I watch sonic, the only thing that comes to my mind is "how the hell do you lose with this character" he seems unbeatable sometimes

[@ToadetteTails6969]

Don't you mean "he seems *UN-DE-FEAT-A-BLE* sometimes"? I'm sorry. I'mma head out now.

[@platypusparasol9825]

​@@ToadetteTails6969god dang it you beat me to it

[@ToadetteTails6969]

@@platypusparasol9825 Nothing personal, but I sometimes find the exact moment to *Break through it all.* Besides, I'm only trying to help you *Find Your Flame,* so what can I say other than *I'M HERE!* Okay, I really need to stop with the Frontiers references. Problem is is that the music of the game is GOD-TIER. I kid you not, Frontiers is an amazing experience.

[@the_supern0va238]

It might just be me being far worse than Sonix as a Sonic player but he's not broken like Smash 4 Bayo or Brawl Meta Knight. He has a good amount of matchups I try to avoid at all cost because of how painful they are.

[@krispr1me]

@@ToadetteTails6969 See it was funny until the "Sorry, I'll see myself out now 🤓" part. If you make a joke, just stand by it, dude.

[@kendallcharleswell8489]

If this video has taught me anything, it is that Sonic is actually a scary three foot nightmare and Eggman is right to be so chuffed about him.

[@wildpride1119]

But Eggman's a villain 😂

[@doublechindoge7]

I've never heard chuffed be used to mean anything but happy/proud. 😅

[@kendallcharleswell8489]

Okk so i did a quick search, and you are right. I should have used a different word.​@doublechindoge7

[@chrismaystar3014]

It's really interesting seeing a video essay about Sonic's revilement in Smash that is less from the perspective of a Sonic fan and more from the perspective of a Smash competitor.

[@ayar2]

that would be a bit too biased,. then again, a competitive point of view would also be biased in a game that's not meant to be one.

[@mythmage8231]

I find Sonic an interesting case. In most multiplayer games, hypermobility is frustrating, since it allows for virtually free positioning and the ability to just overwhelm your opponent while remaining virtually untouchable themselves. They make sure they do EVERYTHING before you can do anything. Sonic, on the other hand, doesn't infuriate you because there's nothing you can do if your counterplay just cannot combat the sheer speed of your opponent. Instead, he bores you to death by making sure NOTHING happens, which as unhealthy as it is, it's honestly a cool twist on hypermobility being complete and utter bullshit.

[@wizdakilla7320]

Ye that's mythras job to simply just put frame data you lol

[@andimari9194]

@@wizdakilla7320 Fr. Mash like a little kid and ur playing her right

[@excaliburzx1134]

Sonic is a character where I think you could get away with him being fast but he should have slower specials or weaker recovery If the character were to be reworked entirely, get rid of one of the Spin Dash’s or both

[@ignacioperez5479]

i preffer the hypermobility of make sure all happens before, since if they screw it you can punish

[@mythmage8231]

@@ignacioperez5479 But if they don't, you don't get to play the video game. All agency is taken out of your hands if the opponent is good. I just prefer hypermobility not exist

[@edgarrodriguez7733]

I laughed so hard when i saw leo time sonix out twice in a single set, king of adaptation

[@Lcg_fgc]

Sonic deserves it

[@plabcentral630]

Justice some might call it

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

“Twice?” He only has timed him out once at Genesis

[@N12015]

I guess being the king of neutral comes with that title.

[@Quackra]

@@N12015 that title is pretty inaccurate honestly, though he definitely has the best advantage state out of any player

[@MrLag525]

I think aggressive sonic is incredibly fun to watch, but you never see anyone play him like that because camping is ultimately the optimal strategy. If Nintendo tweaked Sonic just a bit, they could really Impact his playstyle for the better. (Also yes I’m a sonic main)

[@robraze]

I wish his Side B could’ve been something different besides a slightly different Spin Dash tbh

[@Oggre]

I play him agressive

[@NINJAGOBALLS]

I play sonic aggressive normally even when I loose its still fun, camping is something I don't like because I don't have the patience and it doesn't feel good.

[@Oggre]

@@NINJAGOBALLS same

[@Vyserial]

Yeah, camping isn't fun with Sonic, playing rush down also catches people off guard. Retreat for a second to make them think you're going to camp only to rush back in to re-engage and catch them off guard. Honestly all of these 'optimal' Sonic players make Rush Down tactics way more effective since everyone thinks we Sonic Mains play the same way.

[@guythatdosethingssometimes2651]

I distinctly remember an elite smash match where I was going against a sonic. As it happened, I was playing villager. From the beginning, I could tell that they wanted me to approach and were waiting for a slip up. However, I inside sat at the other end of the stage spamming projectiles the entire match. It was more of a test of patience than an actual fight. The 8 minute timer was exhausted easily.

[@thechugg4372]

Lets be honest you would have spammed projectiles either way

[@lasercraft32]

Competitive play is something else... its like the most disgraceful strategies in casual play, such as spamming and camping and just being cheap, are all encouraged because you're playing to win and win alone. You don't worry about being honorable or fair on the battlefield. And somehow its viable.

[@guythatdosethingssometimes2651]

​@Lasercraft32 I had a match once where I was playing Lucas and just camped ledge spamming pk fire and pk freeze. My opponent didn't know how to deal with it, so I just kept on doing it. Eventually, they just gave up and jumped off the stage. I have no shame. A win is a win git gud or die.

[@diamond556]

13:47 lemme say something here Sonic does indeed dance, the thing about it tho is that the stage is only his and the opponent is just a spectator, sometimes chosen by the dancer to get on stage for a couple seconds He dances around you while you watch and stay still

[@consistentfailure]

0:28 “The Notorious D.L.C.” would actually be a really great tag for a Steve/Kazuya/Aegis main terrorizing their locals.

[@nervantes]

I just picked up Sonic because I'm getting bored and I got to say, more rage quits than I've ever seen in my life. He's obnoxious and I'm the one playing him

[@spiritualak5147]

Lmao sonic is my main but I just started playing with samus and I’m yielding the same results

[@nervantes]

@@spiritualak5147 Same, I stopped because I couldn't get the practice I wanted. Same with K. Rool who is my main main. I don't even spam projectiles and people rage quit. You can't get better at the game if you don't fight adversity. People just want wins handed to them.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

​@@nervantesK. Rool is low tier and has clearly defined weaknesses. Big difference between people raging because they don't know how to fight K. Rool and because they don't want to deal with Sonic's obnoxious unpunishable spindash or camping.

[@RichardLester]

Think with all the advantages Sonic has the thing is it looks to me that he's exhausting to play as because you got to be making way more decisions per interaction than almost every other character and similar to Shulk the player can lose control when they are thinking too far in advance.

[@monkeybluesMMA]

It looks that way to you. But muscle memory and that retardedly high down b jump is brainless

[@RichardLester]

@@monkeybluesMMA not saying it's always that way but to me it feels like Sonix loses when he lets opportunities slip away that would seem obvious to others but likely in the heat of the moment was thinking of too many possible interactions and thus hesitates

[@Sergio-wc1wn]

I agree. Sonic seems very hard to play. The amount of discipline and skill needed to pilot this character is insane

[@orangeslash1667]

@@RichardLester Thankfully we have R.O.B, just incase sonic burns people out. Since EGGMAN will never be in Smash, R.O.B is the closest will get to an Eggman robot, because robots are a big part of sonic.

[@ahmadkazan5473]

@@orangeslash1667 but sonic violates robots.

[@griz_bee]

Sonic is a weird character to me because my opinion of his players changes depending on the setting. If I lose to a campy sonic in a friendly match, it’s so frustrating because it gives off the impression that they’re just tryharding to an insane degree. But, on the other hand, if I lose to a campy sonic in bracket, I can’t help but feel like I just got outplayed.

[@monkeybluesMMA]

The only thing being outplayed is people's patience while fighting sonic

[@Sergio-wc1wn]

I agree. Sonic is actually a very difficult character to play optimally so it makes sense why you would feel outplayed if you lost to Sonic in bracket

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Sergio-wc1wn Classic Sonic games have always been speed being the reward for good platforming. Meaning that Sonic is a platform character first and a speed character second. Sonic boss fights are about avoiding their attacks until they expose a weak point. That is exactly what Sonic is in Smash, the opponents try to keep up Sonic and when they make a mistake, Sonic can easily overwhelm them. If you want something that represents how Sonic can flow in levels, I think MOB Smash does a pretty good job at that.

[@captainmega6310]

​@Orange Slash that's actually a pretty interesting analysis on Sonic there And I'll check out MOB smash

[@orangeslash1667]

@@captainmega6310 It's wasn't easy but I was able to get 2:20 min with Sonic, and 2:32 min with R.O.B.

[@DarkAura19]

It sucks so much. I understand why Sonic is the way he is... in BRAWL. He was a rush job because Sega had initially declined Sakurai's request to put him in, only for them to change their mind at the last minute. I understand why his moveset doesn't seem like what it should be and more or less just did "Classic Sonic but he has Virtua-Fighter/Sonic the Fighters inspiration in his moves". But like Ganon and the 64 cast, Sonic falls victim to the Smash team's refusal to make any meaningful changes to veterans. I understand not wanting to alienate people who like how that character plays/are used to, but that doesn't lead to a healthy representation of their source material, relevance to their most recent interpretations, or balance. Sonic especially suffers from the latter. Sonic was fine in Brawl because running away and camping wasn't nearly as viable of an option as it was in 4 and Ult, and with his kill power being severely lacking, it meant he HAD to go in if he wanted to actually close out stocks. The changes to the games after Brawl over corrected those issues.

[@minecraftiscool290]

except wasnt the meta in brawl literally to pick meta knight and air camp?

[@randomprotag9329]

@kollie79 they functionally have. its known that sonic can and have done it before, sonic camping is not an unexpected thing nobody could have predicted at the point of ultimates development

[@orangeslash1667]

@@minecraftiscool290 I noticed that the characters in Smash that can be campy are characters from platformers. Since the propose of the platformer is to jump and have good mobility, Sakurai usually focus's more on that rather than the combat. Caption Falcon maybe fast like Sonic, but he can't be campy because he comes from a racing game not a platformer. Fun Fact F-zero x allows you to kill some of the racers, so Caption Falcon has to use combat. Piranha Plant, Banjo and kazooie also have a potentially campy moveset since they come from platformers.

[@orangeslash1667]

@kollie79 You know how Sonic boss fights are about avoiding there attacks until they expose a weak point??? That’s exactly how Sonic works in Smash. There’s a difference between Sonic levels vs Sonic boss fights.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

@@orangeslash1667 Except Sonic is the one being the aggressor in the boss fights. Eggman's the one running away, while Sonic approaches. Sonic in Smash does the complete opposite.

[@frodolagginsr1077]

The Sonic games are very rich with content like power-ups. It just baffles me why they wouldn't give him a more imaginative move-set now.

[@juneru2]

Same could be said for Kirby, Megaman, and a lot of other characters from previous Smash games. I suppose the devs just wanted to focus on new characters more than anything.

[@-AirKat-]

Initially? Sonic was added in at the last minute during Brawl so they didn’t have time to get fancy. As of now? Smash’s general refusal to change a characters’s moveset once they’re implemented means Sonic’s stuck working with his Brawl gear.

[@eliotrumbleny7280]

​@@juneru2 all mega man's moves are references to his source material, infact, when playing him, you are literally playing mega man

[@orangeslash1667]

@@-AirKat- You know how sandopolis zone from Sonic 3 can be a really long level????? That's Smash Sonic when he's using Timeouts in a nut shell. Sonic game's aren't just about speed there also about platforming and exploration, which can make some levels complex. Sandopolis Zone is the most extreme example of this.

[@jomaq9233]

You could make the argument that constantly making sure that everything in a character’s kit is a reference to something could “ruin the cohesion” of a character’s overall playstyle (not that many people actually like playing as Mega Man because his source material made him kinda awkward to handle in Smash) That being said, Sonic really does need a couple changes and tweaks to represent “core” parts of his character nowadays (not just one-off stuff that only appeared in one game), a new side special chief among them

[@PineapplePineapplePineapplePin]

The thing that I struggle to think up is how can Sonic be fixed? He's the fastest thing alive so keeping his top notch mobility has to be a must. If Sonic got discouraged from using his speed for camping and instead used it to be as hyperaggressive as someone like Roy or Fox then he'd be hype as hell in my opinion. The thing I can't figure out is the how

[@randomprotag9329]

give sonic a boost meter it keeps his speed in check since to be fast the sonic player has to boost and the meter can only be refilled by dealing damage. a camping play style is harder to win with since the player has basicly no boost to work with while hyper aggressive playstyles have a lot more boost.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@randomprotag9329 Fun Fact: One of Sonic's custom moves in Smash 4 is the flaming spin dash, which is a reference to the flaming summersault in SA 2. Sadly the move did not come back in Ultimate.

[@ahmadkazan5473]

I have an idea of making him fall faster and give his air moves less landing lag, d-tilt becomes more like shiek and mythra while spindash like bayonetta's heel slide stops crossing up shield entirely.

[@yungmuney5903]

1st off replace his up B with 'Hop Jump' which is an actual move he does in the Advance/Rush games, he just does a mid air leap for extra height but I imagine it to be a Dr. Mario tier recovery, this HEAVILY shanks his camping ability because he doesn't go anywhere near as high and doesn't have the obnoxious spring hitbox. Change his Down B so that he's forced to use the spindash on the ground, can't cancel it with sheild or a jump, he has to commit. And change the aerial version into bounce attack but I'd prefer to resemble the Advance 3 version. As for Side B, just replace it with an entirely new move, I'll leave it up to you to decide if it helps discouraging camping.

[@TheWispGuy]

Delzethin made a video about Sonic, and suggested giving Sonic a Boost Gauge. Landing hits allowed Sonic to build the gauge up, but if you take too long to consistently land a hit on the foe, the gauge would begin to drain. The boost meter would be used for Sonic's new suggested side special Sonic Boost, as well as a new up special. (who's name I can't recall atm) iirc, up special would drain the gauge entirely. So that, combined with the boost gauge draining if you don't consistently attack your foe, would be to encourage you to keep being aggressive and discourage camping

[@LexStormA]

Man, imagine how hype high-level Sonic plays would be if Sakurai gave him a moveset

[@Inithia]

My personal take on Sonic as a character is that he - just like many other characters - are not seen as a "fun character." Every once in a while a video pops up reworking a character and everyone talks about Sonic. His moveset has so much potential and it is squandered by whatever mess he currently has. In my eyes, he has wasted potential and in return I have to watch it for 30 minutes in one set.

[@randomprotag9329]

sonic is the worst designed smash character its a heavily flawed character to play with and fails in representing sonic as a character.

[@Zero_de_Nova]

Or you play like Clockwork.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@randomprotag9329 Classic Sonic games have always been speed being the reward for good platforming. Meaning that Sonic is a platform character first and a speed character second. Sonic boss fights are about avoiding their attacks until they expose a weak point. That is exactly what Sonic is in Smash, the opponents try to keep up Sonic and when they make a mistake, Sonic can easily overwhelm them. If you want something that represents how Sonic can flow in levels, I think MOB Smash does a pretty good job at that.

[@Inithia]

@@orangeslash1667 while his play style may be accurate to your opinion. He usually has a variety of options that isn't just 5 different "turn into a ball" moves. He had the wisps from Colors as a good example

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Inithia Here's the problem if you give Sonic more Variety, you would have to slow Sonic down to keep him balanced. Something I don't think Sega would allow😠😠.

[@charliem.7361]

Snake knew he was going to be a nuicance in the near future, but we didn't figure it out until it was too late.

[@NRalter]

You know what my problem with Sonic is? HE DOESN'T LOSE RINGS WHEN HE GETS K.O'd!

[@chaoticembrace925]

yeah just stagger him for like 5 secs lmao

[@Bhubnipz]

I like these videos, you break down these topics in an interesting and insightful way

[@MoistMarsupial]

Sonic wouldn't be nearly as bad if tournaments decided to let sudden death play out instead of awarding the win to whomever has the percent lead at the end of a game with tied stocks. It would force him to take risks and win by a convincing margin and mostly eliminate the degenerate "optimal" way of playing the character. It's a ruleset problem

[@ChainsSSB]

That doesn't help at all when Sonic is also one of the best sudden death characters in the game because spindash becomes a kill move at those percents

[@MoistMarsupial]

@@ChainsSSB Still better than having optimal sonics to go for the timeout every time. Sudden death greatly reduces the amount of space they have to run away, and you've at least got a chance of catching them and getting the hit first under those circumstances

[@aidanklobuchar1798]

This would just really incentivize anyone at a stock advantage they don't think they can come back from to camp for a timeout. This forces the winning player to approach, acting as a bad comeback mechanic. You are right that it's a ruleset problem: Sonic should just be banned.

[@gaidencastro9706]

It's a weird idea, but one thing I think would make Sonic less frustrating is an uncancelled auto-taunt mechanic if he fails to deal a lot of damage, similarly to how Sonic taps his foot if you aren't moving in the original game.

[@wes7469]

after what moves exactly? Would it have to happen every time to avoid lame RNG deaths? couldn't this potentially mean he would have more incentive to just run away?

[@gaidencastro9706]

@@wes7469 Any move, as long as it's dealt damage to someone

[@RetroGamerMike]

After months of seeing Sonix in LV SSBU tourneys, I played vs. him in tourney bracket. With just several minutes talking to him, IMO he’s one of the friendliest top players I’ve met. A stark contrast of his main Sonic who’s annoying to play vs. I’m usually shy talking to new people but for friendlies, it’s different.

[@randomzergling]

Hate the character (actually nevermind don't it's not even that bad) not the player (please)

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

In a competitive standpoint I feel like Sonic’s biggest problem is how heavily skewed the stagelist and the timer work for him, because Sonic while he can camp, he typically forces a more cautious playstyle and having a 7 minute timer doesn’t help much especially when smash sets in general can be long with or without him. The stages also generally encourage more defensive gameplay as well. Imo Sonic has weaknesses people don’t even take advantage of enough as while Sonic can run away he still has to commit to the corner which is still a fundamental disadvantage as combined with his light weight and combo food Sonic can die rather easily.

[@ahmadkazan5473]

2 frames air dodge and best mobility in game what combo/corner should he worry about.

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

@@ahmadkazan5473 frame 2 airdodge is a nuisance but that doesn’t change everything if the character’s a floaty plus light weight which makes it very easy to combo Sonic as long as the player makes sure it’s either a true combo or is able to frame trap because it’s still an airdodge that’s not hard to frame trap. Best mobility doesn’t mean shit if you’re played by a human. You will get caught eventually especially with certain characters either being fast enough or have strong kill confirms and putting yourself in the corner makes it easier regardless of Spindash being a good corner tool. You still have to charge it up before getting f1 release and characters have burst options that can catch him which also generally kill like Roy Side b Sonic has answers to many situations which is how he’s good but Sonic clearly has clear design weaknesses that isn’t exploited enough as while he can run away, you will be punished once you do get caught

[@ahmadkazan5473]

@Alibaba yeah but human error applies for the opponent too,you won't be thinking about targeting sonic's very specific and situational disadvantages when he can beat your out of shield option before it comes out or he hit you with spincharge at a weird angle near ledge so you died at 50 or he did a bread and butter that did 50.

[@dil7508]

Make a video and prove it then

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

@@ahmadkazan5473 thing is though Sonic spins usuals still put him in a bad spot most of the time and is up to the player to know when to commit to a strong punish or a neutral win which is still good for the opponent if they create enough distance between the character and Sonic

[@mistah3687]

"Playing against Sonic is basically a game of chicken" That's pretty damn accurate actually

[@blackmanwithcomputer]

Eggman is feeling both vindication and PTSD.

[@exomata2134]

Even tho sonic doesn't really need a nerf it needs a tweak to. Make him do more more dmg or at least to buff his offensive gameplay and lower his hyper mobility but not too much,

[@ZArthritiz]

Big sonic player here. I personally love aggressive sonic but I think I got more hate comments against me than people praising me just because I play sonic. It's either me constant aggressive whiff punishes "sonic is too fast" or camp the player out "sonic is too fast". Same response and nobody is happy just because I picked a Blue Hedgehog who I grew up watching cartoons and playing his games.

[@xen3588]

yeah it doesnt matter what you do, unless you let them win they are gonna whine.

[@knuclestheechidna5406]

​@@xen3588Exactly!

[@Skeleton20133]

Or you're playing a character with a shitty moveset.

[@plabcentral630]

At least sonix is a nice guy.

[@daviddixon8674]

I always hated time out as a win condition, and Zero did it ALOT during smash 4 and ultimate.

[@thefastcommenter7774]

As a Luigi main it sucks to be playing against Sonic. Using B is pretty much the only way you can open up combos to him.

[@vaquishers]

With the release of frontiers, Nintendo has a gigantic pool list to choose from when creating his character. While spin dash has to be one of his side, they can nerf that and up everything else because sonic has always been a confrontational person. He goes up to his enemies face. He’s no slouch in fight fights and combat as seen in frontiers and his very few games that depicts his combat prowesss. It’s strange how running is his best strat in smash. It’s so out of character

[@LonerChief]

That's something I never try to do as Sonic. Timing people out is just dumb and rude. Since Sonic is a rush down character, he is supposed to rack up damage and then get a killing blow when the time is right. That's why when I play Sonic with some smash bros friends, they always think I am going to time them out until I surprise them by not doing that and going for kills. Word of advice for any Sonic player, go for blood not time. I think I learned much from Clockwork's Sonic, best aggressive Sonic I ever seen.

[@orangeslash1667]

Sonic is a hit and run character not a rush down character.

[@RealBroccoliHour]

@@orangeslash1667 I don’t think Sonic is limited to either or tbh. Pretty much all of Sonic’s tools are viable, that’s what makes him versatile all around in my opinion. He can do it all with his speed and mobility.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@RealBroccoliHour My issue with Sonic is that his speed is hard to control, when I'm going on the offensive. Not helping matters is that Sonic can have floaty jumps. This is why I label him as a hit and run, because Sonic doesn't flow the same way as Fox and Caption Falcon.

[@camgoodkicks]

Sonic is my main (because) he is my favorite VG character. Here’s the problem with Sonic. He needs a “core” overhaul. As in the moveset, physics, everything. His speed is fine, it’s when you combine it with other aspects of fighting games like camping that there is a problem. He needs to be the poster character for “get in that ass” and should probably have some kind of gimmick that reflects that (like maybe a slow starting speed that builds up with momentum?)

[@randomprotag9329]

the moveset and play expierence could be solved at the same time mostly. for speed have sonic rely on a boost meter to be fast. have neutral special be boost which makes sonic much faster than average and have non boosting sonic be no faster than average.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

You should check out the most recent version of Sonic on the Rivals of Aether workshop, it's pretty close to what you describe. He builds up Boost by landing combos on the opponent and doing tricks. Once it's full he goes at full speed at all times rather than needing to build momentum and has higher air and fall speed.

[@AzrielArcade]

I would say that while visually his moveset is rather plain, his mechanics are deceptively deadly. He’s an All-Rounder in terms of power, but the speed of a monster. Honestly, he should only have one Spin Dash move overall, but have it in the air as the Drop Dash with different properties. His Forward B could almost be anything. I will say that he should be a bit lighter though as a drawback for his speed, like a light- middleweight if that makes sense. Either way, dude is my favorite character ever, and should he make it in the next game I look forward to his sick Frontiers combo game. XD

[@ToadetteTails6969]

Oh god. I can only imagine Sonic with his Frontiers moveset. Dear god, it'd be glorious...ly terrifying.

[@dummmi_balls9424]

@@ToadetteTails6969 A campy Frontiers Sonic would be wild.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@dummmi_balls9424 You know how sandopolis zone from Sonic 3 can be a really long level????? That's Smash Sonic when he's using Timeouts in a nut shell. Sonic game's aren't just about speed there also about platforming and exploration, which can make some levels complex. Sandopolis Zone is the most extreme example of this.

[@GMDGeojumper2011-bl8sx]

Side b should be the light speed dash, than change up b to something else

[@smilingman4299]

Imagine if Sonic had a special mechanics where his matches are considered "races" and if the clock goes to 0 you automatically lose.

[@kaijucrab7263]

That’s the pretty cool ngl

[@richardmorgan3665]

That would be cool but what would be the benefit to Sonic, at that point it'd be a built in handicap, that would turn Sonic I to Little Mac 2.0.

[@smilingman4299]

@@richardmorgan3665 I don't really think so, because trying to camp Sonic is really difficult. It's just to prevent him from camping

[@Krona-fb4dn]

I'd much rather have them design a kit for Sonic that keeps his high speed but instead actually encourages him to interact than just a niche mechanical change. He was a very late addition to Brawl and that's why a lot of his moves are not very original and reused on other characters.

[@richardmorgan3665]

@@smilingman4299 But your solution to stop him from camping is to immediately make him lose if time runs out, don't you think that's a bit harsh. It's not impossible to camp Sonic out and run away, like why engage in a fight with Sonic if you can win by timing him out, why engage in battle, hell why give Sonic a single hit of damage when you can win by surviving for 7 minutes? Imagine being down to one stock while Sonic hadn't taken a single hit of damage the entire fight but you still win because Sonic alone has a unique handicap. Matches against Sonic would be even lamer but this it wouldn't be due to no faults of Sonic, it's his unique handicap and how exploitable it is, you literally wouldn't even have to engage in battle to win.

[@jasomega2446]

11:29 Anyone has suggestions on how to prevent Sonic from discouraging Interaction (Or What If Suggestions)?

[@ChainsSSB]

Projectiles

[@MasterKnightDH]

@@ChainsSSB Mobility beats projectiles.

[@Freya_Thuriaaz]

I'm glad sonic is finally getting some kind of respect. I've been saying for years that his speed lets him control the flow of the game, and that ultimately baits players into fighting on his terms no matter what those terms may be. I think it's hella hype watching top players change their playstyles to accommodate character specific challenges, same as Steve and Kazuya.

[@That1Guy112]

If you wanna see accommodation look at Peach/Daisy. I play those characters and boy I can tell you they are WAY too underrated. Sonic ain’t bad, it’s just the way people play him sucks

[@marcokrautwald1886]

the worst thing about sonic is that he would be so easy to balance with a simple patch

[@kayceecomix]

I've loved sonic since i was a kid, he'd probably be my main if i didn't prefer characters with at least 1 projectile, still i might pick him up as a secondary after watching this

[@Lira_orpheus]

To be honest, I don't think Sonic is a poorly designes character. I think he's a victim of very unfortunate emergent gameplay. The way you can combo moves out of Spin Dash and Spin Charge to me hints that he was designed to be a rushdown combo character, but players just found a more optimal unintended strategy that Sakurai and his team never got to patch either by a lack of time, priorities or maybe even both.

[@zartoru_]

This still counts as poor design, because it shows either that devs didn't think about this way of playing sonic or they were ok with it, if they knew about his camping ability and didn't want that in the game they could've made him less mobile. And I don't see Sakurai being okay with this kind of gamplay xD

[@silversoul5285]

@@zartoru_ agreed, I don’t think emergent gameplay really makes sense here developers shouldn’t just be able to say “well players broke the game, what do?” The clear oversight is sonic being able to choose non interaction at no cost.

[@zartoru_]

@@silversoul5285 Yup in this specific case it seems obvious to me that players will camp, we're not talking about a character that's just fast and mobile, but faster and more mobile by a huge margin. They could have seen it coming. It's really just bad design

[@renamamiya158]

Even a level 3 cpu knows the basic rush down sonic combo's, he was obviously meant to be one, you can play him as one as well but it's just that that's the reason why he was low in tiers for very long since his attacks just don't have the right setup to play as a '''good'' rushdown character even though he was meant to be one. I feel like if there ever is another game they should encourage fighting with sonic rather then running away.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

That strategy wasn't created by a buff Sonic got, it was always in the game. And Nintendo certainly doesn't lack the time or resources. They just pulled support for the game as soon as the DLCs had all dropped because they don't actually care about making the game well-balanced.

[@marcokrautwald1886]

i hate that there is no more balancing happening in smash...

[@Dr.Barber]

I'm reminded of an ancient Smash meme. "Sonics not CHEAP! Sonics just FAST!"

[@JasonSmith-jv7wl]

Yeah. Coming from melee and starting Ult when it came out and encountering a wifi Sonic that just spammed spin dash and the homing attack, I was shocked by how safe those were. I played some Brawl, I knew how Sonic worked from that, but what were they thinking making these burst speed options ultra safe? Again, coming from melee and encountering a b spamming character and I struggled to land a hit was infuriating. I knew it was particularly wifi, but I called BS on Sonic in Ult day one.

[@Kwizzy8406]

What’s stands out to me about this video is that this person just confirmed that Sonix is literally holding back.

[@yurplethepurple2064]

People overlook how hype sonix can be when it’s beneficial to him, if you need an example of this just watch sonix-light at genesis

[@Nefaliss]

Sonix himself is an insane player but its hard to be hyped for a character as poorly designed as Sonic.

[@DarkAura19]

Sonix is legit insane and incredibly talented and anyone who says otherwise needs to grow up. That doesn't, however, make Sonic any more engaging to watch. Any character can do some pretty hype plays when they get the chance, that doesn't negate Sonic being extremely lame and carried by bad design decisions.

[@Lcg_fgc]

Still boring to watch the character, regardless of how good sonix is.

[@theblackbasketball]

Nobody thinks that Sonix is bad; it’s just that Sonic is an incredibly boring character most of the time.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@theblackbasketball Classic Sonic games have always been speed being the reward for good platforming. Meaning that Sonic is a platform character first and a speed character second. Sonic boss fights are about avoiding their attacks until they expose a weak point. That is exactly what Sonic is in Smash, the opponents try to keep up Sonic and when they make a mistake, Sonic can easily overwhelm them. If you want something that represents how Sonic can flow in levels, I think MOB Smash does a pretty good job at that.

[@CrimsoniteSP]

The only frustrating thing about Sonic for me is how people choose to play him. Kinda the same way with the Links, these characters don't have to camp. Just because a character is good at running away doesn't mean you have to. Other than that Sonic is actually a pretty fun character to play as and against when both players are actually playing the game, and not sitting on ledge indefinitely.

[@monkeybluesMMA]

For some people the fun in smash is getting the win by any means. Which means playing in the least fun way possible. I like playing like we are having a war in the octagon

[@CrimsoniteSP]

@@monkeybluesMMA I do understand that but at the same time that's like 99% of my online matches. Both on Elite Smash and just via Discord and stuff. It what makes me not play for months and months. Everytime I feel like actually getting back on, I get timed out by someone who doesn't want to even approach. Just run away, press the B button, call it a day. People will run away with Ganondorf and it obviously doesn't work with one of the slower characters in the game. Running away is just the dominant strategy and it still confuses me how that's even fun.

[@monkeybluesMMA]

@CrimsoniteSP I do kinda see what you're saying. Anytime I start whooping ass people try so hard to run, especially if their character is naturally a zoner people pussy up hard. I really dislike the play styles cause I'm playing a fighting game to hit you not mentally frustrate you to the point of winning by default

[@CrimsoniteSP]

@@monkeybluesMMA I don't entirely think it's the playerbase, a lot of it has to do with GSP. It's a forced ranking system that literally everyone has to deal with. Even though the ranking system barely even matters, the fact you can't even play a separate casual mode with it disabled is incredibly dumb. I play at 12.5mil GSP currently. I win like 500, I lose 200-300 with over 1,600 hours in the game. In order to even get back down into a casual level I have to lose like 100 matches in a row and also not get banned by the reverse boosting system. And when I take like month long break, it makes getting into the game a lot harder. Which is also why running away is so frustrating. I'll oftentimes play only 1 single game a week, and half of those matches are me disconnecting because I feel like my time is being wasted.

[@riotron1026]

@@CrimsoniteSP The issue is for a fighting game, smash has far too much freedom of movement compared to your traditional fighting games. This means that characters with faster movement options naturally have a pretty significant advantage over those that don’t. There’s a reason why top/higher tier characters in smash are usually speedy. A fast character having that much freedom of movement can be problematic if handled poorly. I think two fast characters that are done well enough are Fox and Sheik. Fast but both glass cannons, don’t have get out of jail for free options, and eventually have to approach. They gave Sonic way too much in the speed department.

[@alexandermcmillan8056]

My brother plays a very aggressive Sonic so I hadn't had to face a defensive Sonic often. I think a moveset rework will fix his issue such as making a Fox/Falco Side-B for him would probably fix his running away issue as it forces an approach.

[@fastestblader4968]

9:54 Winning neutral is 50-60? In my years of playing sonic most good combos go for around 20-25 percent?

[@LordSeraph999]

There's 2 types of Sonic mains. The campy ones that love seeing the despair in their opponents eyes as they slowly lose their sanity And the Agro ones that love playing high speed rushdown characters.

[@thomasstewart1380]

I feel like there could be a mechanic unique to Sonic that would help alleviate this problem. Sonic is a character that loves speed and action together. Add a mechanic that reduces his speed by a significant margin if you go too long without dealing a certain amount of percent damage or securing a kill. This would promote using his rushdown speed to actually rushdown the opponent and prevent camping others out. If you spend too much time camping and get your speed cut by even like 10%, it would make you more vulnerable and easier to be punished for being too scared to take advantage of his speed in the right way. Think of it as a reverse comeback mechanic. Could even be a progressive and linear reduction becoming more drastic the longer you go without fighting.

[@xPandamon]

I straight up would not invite Sonix to my tournament. If you play around that win condition, you are not welcome. It's scummy, disrespectful and simply not fun whatsoever for anyone.

[@OrangeToadGamer]

W Music choices at the beginning *I love Dragon Dance soooo much*

[@priscillam.t.6215]

I feel that Sonic, out of every character, is the best representation of a character's actual canon when translated to Smash. An annoying gnat no one can kill because he's too damn fast...

[@snuffysam]

I find it to be a really interesting game design question. Let’s say you were designing Sonic from the ground up, and let’s say him having the best mobility in the game by a country mile is non-negotiable. How would you design a character that, rather than bringing every match to time, is designed to finish each match (win or lose) as quickly as possible? You can cause extreme differences in his advantage and disadvantage states, like give Sonic insane combos and make him the game’s worst combo food so that one hit either way decides the stock. But then, is that really better? That just leads to super cautious play to avoid being the first one hit…

[@renamamiya158]

Robin gained MP mechanics due to some insanely spammable moves (e.g. the fire move plus a smash attack, this is usually better than just spamming PK fire as it kills easier). I think Sonic should have this too to some extent. Except it doesn't just fill up over time, it should fill up as moves are used against enemies. While it's not common in the game for moves like Spindash to require a boost meter I feel like it should, and when it's gone you actually have to fight to get it back, this makes Spindash less viable as a camp move.

[@antdawgjr]

Bro, it’s His World.

[@Flare8295]

If we get a video of why everyone or no one plays Sonic I wouldn't be surprised with either tbh

[@CipherKnighto]

Everyone most likely. Theres a good amount of top level representation he has aside from Sonix and Ken

[@kerbehklobbah5790]

The fact Sonic is a campy timeout character really bothers me, he should be reworked to be the rushdown character to end all rushdown characters, using his mobility to get in on his opponent instead of using it to camp on the other end of the map. I would think a decent start would be to have some sort of unique mechanism that forces Sonic to engage with his opponent, and punishes camping. Perhaps a unique momentum bar, where Sonic gains momentum by hitting his opponent, slowly ramping up to his normal speed, and loses momentum over time, forcing him to interact lest he lose his crucial speed advantage and die horribly as a result.

[@Abornarazine]

Seems like adding items would solve this problem.

[@Misul2006]

I feel pretty bad for Sonic tbh. Such a cool character with wasted potential with Combos and such. 😔

[@chillbizz74]

His moveset was mostly spin dashing despite being able to actually do more than that in the actual games, his playstyle plays best as campy rather than being a fast combo juggler, Sonic would never stall out time. His taunts are generic and his final smash become pathetic in ultimate along with many other characters and be also has one of the worst sets of alts or should I say lack of alts next to Pacman

[@asuuki2048]

I’m a Sonic player. I love to use him. I basically never use Spindash or Spincharge, solely because I’m worried I will upset my opponent, even online… But it’s a paradox, because I genuinely am competitive, and want to win very badly. With that said, my playstyle is very aggressive with pretty much every single character that I use. My main is Greninja after all lol, it’s an instinct if it isn’t just what I prefer to do. I like to fight, not play tag. There has to be something that can be done to make Sonic less annoying to opponents if they ever make a Smash 6… And even if they just continue to port Ultimate, which I would personally prefer, surely they can update him to discourage people from avoiding, you know… fighting. Nothing makes me sadder in this game than making my opponent upset. I want them to have as good of a time as me. I get depressed when I see them ragequit… It isn’t that I do too badly without Spindash either, as I’m around the 9,000,000 GSP range with him despite basically not having a Down Special or Side Special. I only use it for recovery. Now if only Homing Attack wasn’t such a cool move… ;~; But with that said, I just really do like his character… One big nerf I would make, is where my opponent can heavily punish me if I were to Spindash their shield. I think it’s cool that Sonic can go though them, but it also feels unfair to be totally honest… Still, I love the blue blur so very much 💙💙💙 Whenever I start a match, my opening line to my opponent is usually, “Close range only!” :3

[@MasterKnightDH]

Easy Thumbs Up from me. We want more kinetic gameplay, not Sonic nerfed into the ground. Also worth adding is that Sonic in his games had to worry about both the timer working against him, and how Robotnik's machines have superarmor and enough invincibility frames, regardless of Robotnik being far less of a tactician than a strategist. I know Unconditional Flinching does have its purpose, but Sonic is basically reason number 81,018,001 why Smash Bros. would have benefited in addressing the drawbacks of Unconditional Flinching via a better porting of Kid Icarus Uprising's Power system, and not the watered down mess in Smash 4 3DS's Smash Run.

[@PALMA06]

Yeah but you play Sonic.

[@joshuaturner4602]

the only real way to make sonic interact more would be so slow him down, in every fighting game it is optimal to not get hit, wait till your opponent throws something out that is less than safe get a combo in, and then back off before it's their turn again. In games like street-fighter, the corner stops you from running away forever, but in smash if you have the ground speed and the jump height you can run away from your opponent most of the time. the other thing they could do is change the timeout rules, they need timers to keep the tournament on time, but if you changed the rules so that if the game hits time and neither player has won in a definitive way you issue them both a loss. If you're in the double elim bracket of a tournament (and not swiss rounds earlier on) you can have it so that both players get sent to the losers bracket, and if they tie in losers send them both home. Players they would have to fight would get a bye. Functionally you either win definitively or you lose there is no playing for points here, then the rules of the game force an interaction because if you cannot get your opponent dead in the time allotted you lose.

[@asuuki2048]

@@PALMA06 … huh…….?

[@tigerlegend87sf4]

If your goal is your opponents happiness then your competitive desire is secondary.

[@Neoxon619]

Delzethin described it best, it’s ironic how the fastest character in the game has his most optimal play style be slowing down the pace of the match. Sonic desperately need a rework if he returns in the next game.

[@pbz7572]

Vars you are the truth. Your content is so spot on and describes things that people have a sense of but can’t quite describe it right

[@gameboyn64]

Maybe the answer is to be like boxing that has rules against a refusal to fight. In boxing, if the referee deems one fighter is not fighting back and is just running away, they can issue a warning, deduct a point, or just dq the fighter.

[@ShadowsightSolos]

I enjoyed watching Sonics gameplan go from Spindashing everything to punching everything.

[@lasercraft32]

Its ironic that Sonic's playstyle in Smash encourages being as patient as possible and take as much time as is needed for your opponent to slip up... literally the OPPOSITE of who Sonic is supposed to be, and goes against his very nature.

[@zBryan-mq9nl]

One important thing that we need to have in mind is that Sonix is the only player that can play Sonic at this level, and i'm pretty sure it has to be really hard for him to beat people like MKLeo. Idk why people suddenly think that you can just go and play Sonic for like 3 months and win tourneys. Sonic is not like Steve and we can tell that by looking at the amount of people that actually do use Sonic. So, I, personally think that this isn't that big of a problem unless for whatever reason everyone starts to play Sonic at Sonix's level, wich is very unlikely.

[@spencerwasson5877]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic were to overtake Steve as the best character in the game at some point, because when played optimally, - It is impossible to edgeguard him or keep him in disadvantage. - Spindash is the only move Sonic will ever need, as there are countless unpunishable ways to mix up your approach, even from across the stage, giving Sonic incredible neutral. - Sonic's neutral makes him unique in that he is the only character that can consistently pursue the timeout strategy against any opponent, giving him virtually no losing matchups. - Sonic has countless tools to edgeguard and gimp his opponents to further pressure them in disadvantage. It's been two years since Sonic's rise to the top and pro players still have not found reliable, consistent counterplay, all the while players like Sonix and Ken continue to push Sonic to his absolute limits. Losing with Sonic is a choice.

[@ZombieApocalypse09]

I thought we solved camping playstyles when peach players would just float above the stage in smash 4 to avoid characters who can't jump. Isn't there an interaction clock at Tournaments?

[@Antonio-is2cn]

"Running from the past is a losing game it never brings you glory!"

[@ultratv6746]

I still like using this guy... It would be heartbreaking if he didn't appear in the rest of the franchise (For me at least)

[@DoMorrMusic]

Sonic is to Ultimate what Jigglypuff is to Melee

[@craigyeah1052]

Sonic and Steven really do an amazing job speaking to their singleplayer gameplay styles. Sonic is all about speed, hit and run, and dodging, and I think the best way to capture that is actually giving him many options in his movement rather than just being fast (something the games could actually stand to do more). Minecraft has poor combat mechanics, but combat can be fun because of placing blocks and mining while running away to cheese and building structures to counter bosses. These mechanics both revolve around the idea of making full use of one's superior autonomy to defeat an enemy who has more bodies/stats. I bet a no spirits World of Light Sonic only run would be cool. Playing against him, well no one likes having less autonomy.

[@riamu94]

As a Sonic main, my approach is more aggressive in your face kinda style rather than campy bait n punish... say what u want about that but it just seems more fun goin full aggro Sonic compared to campy, HOWEVER certain characters and players WILL force me to go campy and man i HATE doing that so much becuz for one, its not fun at all and whats more is i feel super scummy when playin campy with Sonic lol

[@asuuki2048]

As a Sonic player, you are one of my people 💙💙💙 Rushdown Sonic all the way!!

[@TheDoomsdayzoner]

Honestly, I proposed it multiple times that lowering Sonic's damage output by 10% and giving him moves and features that would encourage interaction would be great. New features to old moves: N. Air - can combo, each hit deals 50% damage of his N. Attack combo. The last hit of the combo allows Sonic to launch himself in the direction opposite of his opponent for a short distance(just a littles more far than mario' F. Air), setting up for Homing attack. D. Air - now goes slightly more forward, encourages you to use it to attack someone below, but more forward Homing Attack - he now can press Normal attack to start his N. Air combo once he connects to an opponent. Delay between connection and combo - 3 frames, allowing some people to dodge by either shield or stomp-like. Spindash - allows Sonic to start Ground Combo the moment he connects with the hit. Using Spindash in the air will instead use Downward Bounce move, that deals as much damage as his spindash on hit and sends enemy downward on 5th hit, but can't be cancelled untill he lands. Use with caution. New moves: Boost - replaces his Side-B. Basicly, chargeable version of Fox Illusion with 3-second cooldown after each use and no enemy knockback. When used in the air - goes upward at 40 degrees horisontal. Can be parried, dodged, and uncharged Version can even be grabbed, if you time it right. You can't charge the move while it's on cooldown.(shown as Boost gauge above Sonic's portrait) Uncharged - short dash, around 1/4 of Final destination, allows aerials and Specials. Fully charged(after holding input for 2 seconds) -aura-clad Modern Sonic boost that launches you for the half of Final Destination and knocks off projectiles, gives you endlag that lasts 2 frames. Boost Gauge(passive): You want to use Sonic's Boost more often? Then hit Opponents with your N.Air and Ground N. Combos to fill the Gauge!

[@detectiveg7885]

I feel like if they changed his move set and gave him a massive rework they could make him a good rush down character like fox which rewards Interaction and discourages timeouts. It would also make sense since in the games. your encouraged to go fast

[@RacingSnails64]

I'm shocked he doesn't play like rushdown. Whenever I toy with him I try to play him like rushdown. Ultimate had the opportunity to balance his spin dashes to make him less campy. No idea why they didn't take it.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@RacingSnails64 I noticed that the characters in Smash that can be campy are characters from platformers. Since the propose of the platformer is to jump and have good mobility, Sakurai usually focus's more on that rather than the combat. Caption Falcon maybe fast like Sonic, but he can't be campy because he comes from a racing game not a platformer. Fun Fact F-zero x allows you to kill some of the racers, so Caption Falcon has to use combat. Piranha Plant, Banjo and kazooie also have a potentially campy moveset since they come from platformers.

[@Nauctical_bane]

People say sonic is broken and should be nerfed but in my opinion yall just need to learn which characters are good against him ( yes im i sonic main )

[@Mohammedssbu]

What’s the mod in the background of the stage at 5:25

[@faded9581]

I feel like this video is quite incomplete, you didn't properly address the fact that Sonic has been effectively walled out of securing the number one spot by mkleo's recent adaptation and light's *6-0* record against Sonix, thus demonstrating that Sonic's gameplan is not fundamentally impregnable. I also feel that you are glossing over Sonic's deficiencies. Not only are his kill confirms extremely limited outside spin dash, his normals, while quick to start, are quite laggy for a top tier, his cqc options in general being very underwhelming, which we saw SaltOne take advantage of at LvlUp. Basically, I think the video is unnecessarily cynical in the dominace in Sonic, and there are many results that demonstrate to us that this character is not fundamentally insurmountable at all, and merely requires more advanced counterplay that what we see now.

[@MasterKnightDH]

If we care only about the top rather than at all about the middle like the Smash community does, we are asking for a degenerate community when the only way to go is down. We have plenty of people who are still outraged by how Sonic creates these time out scenarios and generally campy games. This is a character whose games operate on time limits working against the player, so why should he get to win by time out now? Because some game that doesn't even allow Olimar's Pikmin maturity stages to matter says so? HA! Smash Ultimate's online that was forced upon everybody's throats by the pandemic didn't even help matters. At the point where we have effective repeats of the 2 Bayonettas holding their Neutral B for like 90 years as a finals match, any tournament results simply do not matter.

[@faded9581]

@@MasterKnightDH The top results are what we aspire to. That's how we learn, by looking and emulating thosr who are better than us. The fact that Light can consistently wall out Sonic at his campiest with relative ease is proof that Sonic is beatable and doesn't have to devolve in boring cat and mouse antics with the right counterplay

[@MasterKnightDH]

@@faded9581 Top results being emulated stifles creativity. Just take a look at how much people in Kid Icarus Uprising spam Celestial Fireworks. It brings games to screeching halts while creativity for burst damage is BADLY undermined. Should we aspire to THAT? I'd rather people use Reflect Barrier, Meteor Shower, and Power Thief on a more consistent basis, just to better encourage variety. Emulating the same thing on permanent repeat creates either common weaknesses, or unacceptable repetition. I don't even call Kid Icarus Uprising's controls good just because I can adapt to them well. Whether I can adapt to them or not doesn't change that plenty of players can't, nor should they be forced to waste time dealing with a problem that has nothing to do with the more appealing parts of the gameplay. Again, one guy walling out Sonic? Big deal, it doesn't change many people's frustration on suitably founded reason.

[@faded9581]

@@MasterKnightDH what are you rambling about? This a competition. The key to victory is optimization. "Fear not the man who practiced a thousand kicks, but one kick one thousand times." If you desire creativity, go see combo experiments or TAS. That one person(more than one, Sonix hasn't even won a major)proved it is possible, and it is up to everyone else to put in the work if they want to win. Everything you have said is an excuse or tangential, you give it everything you have to win, or shut up and be something other than competitive.

[@themetalgamer9864]

Maybe it's because my level of skill is "Good enough to play in Elite Smash and beat my casual friend consistently, but wouldn't be caught dead in a tournament," but I actually like how Steve and Kazuya make you almost play a different game. I enjoy the aspect of mixing up the old formula into something unique.

[@schwany6703]

delusional how TF do you find gimmicky broken annoying characters fun to play against

[@ericlewandowski6963]

Simple fix. You have 30 seconds to either land an attack or get attacked. If not, you’re disqualified. This would apply to all characters in a tournament.

[@mastrsonic375]

Another thing I want to bring up is Sonic’s considerable lag when he whiffs Most of his moves do have considerable endlag while moves like Spin Dash and Spin charge are much safer considering they can reliable travels through shields making them very safe and the only move in the entire game to be positive on parry I would say Sonic’s Hypermobility combined with less rush down intended moves as his moves have below average end lag also adds to Sonic’s campy play style Now I do think Sonic can be a Hyperaggressive and Hypermobile character without being to campy while still being good and most of the are tied to his lackluster moveset

[@Poet482]

Captain Falcon main here. I find it best to simply wall out Sonic with stale fairs and back-airs, and also apply "wall pressure" with nairs. Let him run into your fists. And if he doesn't, mix it up with a grab attempt at irregular intervals. Any sliver of pressure you can get to stick on him is where you need to attempt to take the stock wholesale, but stay safe with those stale aerials and spaced-out nairs to wall him out. Repeat. Ironically, don't expect the game to be quick.

[@T4N7]

It is true that this type of playstyle can be a bit overwhelming. In smash 4, my roommate n I used to play online doubles n his main was Villager. We played spme intense tree game n basically forced our opponents to play on our terms n we won a lot more than we probably should've. But Villager doesn't have as many mix up options as Sonic n the strategy required me to play very risky n aggressively to lure people into our traps cuz 1vs1 it was a lot easier for people to sit back n stall againsy him. But if u got someone like Dedede who can kill u in a few hits (my main) or fast characters like Yoshi, Sonic, or Li'l Mac to rush in n make u feel the pressure, u r more likely to mess up, n when u do, Villager is there to finish u with usually either a tree or a bowling ball. Playing too aggro againsy us was a death sentence, going off stage with Vilkager near the ledge was a death sentence. I can't even count how many times people thought they were about to take the lead by ganging up on me off stage just to realize that neither of them were coming back from that n now they got 1 kill but lost 2 lives. N since my brother had played Spamus for yrs n always would let me basically do 2v1 fights against lvl 9s while he charged up his B, I was really used to going hard n doing seemingly risky plays in those 2v1 scenarios cuz I knew I had backup, well we had a crazy good win rate, something like 70-80% whereas solo I was more like 40-50% n my roommate was about 50-60% at best. I know we weren't anything close to pro levels but online random battles it really was a welcomed gift to find a team that was clearly better than us so that we could improve our skills. Most of our matches were kinda too easy. Controlling the tempo of the fight is probably the best advantage u could ever have cuz it means u don't really have neutral moments anymore, being in neutral is an advantage for u when u wanna play defensively (n my characters would just give the impression that we were offensive n give us even more advantage). Glad to see Sonic getting his day in the sun, but ya, if we could've used our strategy as effectively without a partner, it would've been broken.

[@soundrogue4472]

As someone who mained Sonic in the past; yeah him and Zelda are both my top tier picks for punishing an opponent the first mistake they make. I play less chicken with him because it's quite fun to punish my opponent while I can get away with mistakes.

[@ragnarokda206]

Man. Imagine if spin dashes couldn't pass through shields. Like why can that pass through but not falco/fox's side B????

[@knuclestheechidna5406]

People really underestimate how strong Sonic Spindash is.

[@nomnom2298]

​@@knuclestheechidna5406Sure canonically but smash doesn't have to completely follow canon.

[@SonicRasengan]

If they made Sonic's frame data as fast as Shiek or Fox and made his moveset more inspired by Sonic Advance Trilogy and Sonic Battle Sonic wouldn't have to camp... Yes whiff punish and winning every "Neutral Interaction" is the play of the game for Sonic as a character but he wouldn't be so damn lame to play for play against if he was designed to fully aggressive instead of "passive-aggressive" Now some may argue "We can't make Sonic's frame data any Faster than it already is cuz if we did he'd be the best character in the game!" To which I'd agree he more than likely would be! But here's my question to all the Sonic players and haters "Would you rather have A. Sonic being flashy fast and less of a reason to not Interact and nearly be or just BE the best character in the game? Or B. Keep him the way he is and continue to see him as lame to watch and lame to play and still at least top 4? Your choice!

[@yujirohamna2430]

They just need to give him a much more involved. Seriously Sonic plays like he did in Sonic 1-3, yet they use his modern design. Hopefully the fact that Sakurai said he was playing Sonic frontiers will help out in the next game.

[@lastpringle8904]

Dr. Eggman: First time, eh? You get used to it. Eventually

[@GurpreetDutt]

I used to love putting on the bunny hood and running on the F Zero stage and racing the cars 😂

[@issa1772]

As a sonic player, I can agree. I like to get in with sonic, but with sonic being relatively light, he can easily lose trades to those who have more range than him, or who do more damage, and with spin dash having so many options, you can’t help but to mix it up ALL the time

[@PALMA06]

Losing as Sonic is a choice.

[@issa1772]

@@PALMA06 No it’s not. No one CHOOSES to lose. Not every character is helpless against sonics playstyle like Byleth, Pyra/Mythra and Steve.

[@knuclestheechidna5406]

​@@PALMA06You try playing as Sonic and go up against a skilled Gandorf player. You're going to be thrown all over the place.

[@Skyrura]

Everyone complaining about Sonic ain't ready for the fabled timeout Mythra

[@Nibblets03]

If there was an option to make 1v1 timeouts always go to sudden death all of this could be avoided

[@ignacioperez5479]

is the same crap. sonic waits for sudden death, then spin attack/spin dash

[@dragonslight4531]

Woah Woah Kazuya is very good on the ground but has to double jump in the air to get you while being in the air, though his combo game is strong on the ground 13:56

[@name-tx5qu]

Not gonna lie I think one of the biggest changes they can make is make it so that he can't combo off his spin dash at all considering he wouldn't be able to rack up absurd amounts of damage nor gimp a large chunk of the roster by carrying them off the side

[@DarkAura19]

Comboing off of Spindash is something I feel like Sonic needs as it's honest to God the most "Sonic" Sonic feels in Smash. Using your speed and momentum to plow through enemies and using air time to take advantage of your position to the enemy is honestly a really smart way of incorporating that classic feel into him. I think using that to carry them off stage is also really fun and COULD lead to some nice risk reward for if he over extends, if his recovery wasn't as busted as it is. What he does NOT need is two Spindashes that more or less serve the same purpose but make your opponent have to react differently to each of them for no reason other than he gets to overuse it with two different variations of it. It's obnoxiously redundant yet overly complicated to deal with at the same time. Especially with how Homing Attack works.

[@wailmoregd140]

@@DarkAura19 Adding to this, forcing Sonic to be more committal with his approach options, Spin Dash included, would be a great way to encourage more interactions. Run speed is definitely an easy target, and I do think I should be nerfed, (Going from 3.8 to 3.0, would be reasonable, since it would make his speed significantly more manageable while still being very notably faster than the rest of the cast, Captain Falcon’s is around 2.5, for example), Spin Dash I’d say should only be jump-cancellable after a certain amount of time after the charge is released, or if the opponent gets hit. Obviously Sonic’s moveset overall could use an overhaul, but if I had to select one of the 2 spindashes, I’d choose Side-B, which already seems to have the properties of Drop Dash too.

[@memezabelle]

they could also create a penalty if the oppnenet hasnt hit the oppenent in a while

[@swampat4093]

I feel like that would make him want to interact with the opponent less.

[@faded9581]

​@@wailmoregd140 Bro, they already did nerf Spin Dash's versatility from Sm4sh and gave him a better homing attack to compensate.

[@justanothermanontheinternet]

Hot take, Sonix doesnt even camp that much and his sets are usually interesting to watch. Obviously timeouts are boring, but most of Sonix games are around 5 min, which is normal length for most characters. So tbh, I think Sonic is only unbearable during some sets.