Very Few Fish... Relatively Speaking-Ep. 48 of Intentionally Blank

Brandon and Dan chat about whatever comes into their head… Is cereal a soup? The great taco/sandwich debate, and their experience-both weird and not-with writing conferences/retreats.
You can join the discussion and vote for your favorite podcast title at r/sanderson: / sanderson
Can be listened to almost everywhere podcasts can be found.
Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson

[@adamr.5544]

Is atium food? It is meant to be eaten. Doesn't provide nutrients or calories, but it will serve a function to the body (if you can burn it). If atium is food, The Final Empire was a Food Heist.

[@carlosroman7552]

Atium is not a food, cocaine is not food either

[@adamr.5544]

@@carlosroman7552 You don't generally eat cocaine, you take it in different ways. But I guess you could compare it to a drug you ingest. Like coffee. Or edibles. But those I would call both drugs AND food.

[@carlosroman7552]

@@adamr.5544 Maybe a vitamin? But short lived one I suppose. Though pewter and zinc is recommended by the doctors too

[@hussainalmubarak3506]

So much for a food heist that Brando Sando had to break my heart as I just finished the first book

[@nicholaslange6444]

I loved that ending so much! The rest of the series is great too though.

[@wazzap898]

'i am a soup' You could be jello 'i am a soup' But imagine being a non Newtonian material! 'I AM A SOUP'

[@taylorpack1120]

Shallan trying to soulcast a VERY stubborn bowl of vegetable broth

[@MemphiStig]

Is this the next GOTG character? "I AM SOUP!"

[@markwhite8071]

"Today we're going to talk about retreats", spends half the time talking about the spiritual integrity of soup

[@MikeC96]

I'd say a puddle is not food or soup, but rather it is a cold-brewed tea

[@matthewtanous7905]

Tea is just plant broth.

[@unclefetacheese3816]

Alright here’s the short version: I was discussing with some friends about whether or not cereal is a soup. When I suggested that it is not because it uses a milk base instead of a water base, I was quickly disproven by the existence of milk based cream soups. So what makes cereal different from these types of soup? Well, I have created a very profound uniform theory that can adequately explain the problem at hand: In order for something to be defined as a soup, the process of making that soup must fundamentally change the substance of your dish. Let me explain. Say you have some normal vegetable soup- would you define it as a salad? What about a salad soaked in water- is that vegetable soup? No and no. The process of making vegetable soup changes the vegetables, whether that is boiling them, puréeing them, or sometimes even just the act of mixing them together with the other ingredients and soaking them. But wet salad is not vegetable soup by the virtue of the fact that it is vegetables, and you poured water over it. Let me give you another example. If you have a cookie, and you dip it in milk, is that a soup? Clearly not. I mean it’s just a cookie, that you happen to want to dip in milk to enhance the flavor and texture. Theoretically, what if you dropped that cookie into your cup or bowl of milk by mistake, and fished it out with a spoon- does that make it a soup? Don’t be preposterous! Nothing has changed between this case and the case where you dipped it in the milk except for the ratio between milk and cookie. That is like cereal. Pouring cereal into milk does not fundamentally change anything about the cereal, which means it cannot be defined as a soup! (There are even cereals that are made of small cookies, thus furthering the parralel.) To prove this theory, think about the fact that you can eat cereal dry. If you eat vegetables, you are having a salad, but if you purée them and put them in water, you have a soup. On the other hand, if you eat cereal dry, it is still considered cereal! Putting it into the milk did not fundamentally change the cereal, so it did not make it into a soup. The milk acts as an enhancement, like the milk for the cookie. You can eat a dry or wet cookie, and either way it’s a cookie, and you can eat dry or wet cereal and either way it’s cereal! The milk has no fundamental impact on food type of the substance you are eating in this case. Well now, you are going to ask, what about if you have more milk than cereal? ‘Aha, gotcha! You said it’s because the milk simply enhances the cereal, but now the milk is the main part! Mwahaha!’ NO!! You utter moron that is just wrong! It is not about the amount of milk and cereal, and our fundamental theory is not effected by this. If you dipped a cookie in an ocean of milk, does that make the cookie any less of a cookie? Of course not. It is about the substances at hand. The cereal is cereal, and everyone may prefer a different amount of milk with it, but as long as that cereal could’ve been identified as cereal beforehand, and it is still cereal at the moment, it has not been fundamentally changed and so it is not soup. (By this reasoning, if you were to include so much milk that it crushes and dissolved the cereal through pressure, then you have made a soup. if you want to use a ratio to determine whether the milk overrides the cereal, you would have to look at the percentage of the cereal that has dissolved, not the original ratio of milk to cereal.) However, this also means that any cereal which could not be considered a cereal before put in milk, has been fundamentally altered, and thus could be considered a soup as well. A prime example of this is the infamous Matza Milk and Sugar Passover creation. If you crush matza into pieces and sprinkle milk on it, that is not cereal, it is sugar matza. So if you put the matza and sugar into the milk, and that makes it into a cereal, you could also consider this a soup. I am happy to answer any questions.

[@AlfredEiji]

This was honestly brilliant!

[@landonmackey1091]

Cookies in milk = a sugary chip dipped into a thin dairy salsa Also, “Alright here’s the short version:” ???

[@jmcott14]

What this food classification discussion is missing most is the INTENT of the food preparer, the food consumer, and heck the food itself!

[@simoniel_l1646]

Yes! It’s all about whether others view it as soup or not.

[@sacattaq]

Start the Podcast with "Ben, that's how." and then end with "How's that Ben?"

[@10spen11]

A ketek

[@jameshathaway587]

​@@10spen11 Don't say that! - I have aibohphobia...

[@maxgarber9934]

Shouldn’t a cosmere food heist involve Lift

[@nano_bot9561]

for sure

[@thomasmiller8289]

Liftilocks and the three bears

[@jacobmoeller5345]

@@thomasmiller8289 and the three chasmfiends

[@juptor]

Just for the record, the food heist was around 1,5 olympic pool's worth of maple syrup, in terms of volume.

[@scootskute]

@14:06 According to wiki: "Gazpacho or Gaspacho, also called Andalusian gazpacho, is a cold soup made of raw, blended vegetables. It originated in the southern regions of the Iberian peninsula and spread into other areas. Gazpacho is widely eaten in Spain and Portugal, particularly during hot summers, since it is refreshing and cool." Not only is it served cold, the ingredients are not cooked in the process of preparing it.

[@scootskute]

@15:38 Ha ha ha . . . that settles it.

[@smartestprimate5213]

If Hoid doesn't have a conversation with a mirror on the subject of cereal being soup at some point in the Cosmere it must be considered a failure.

[@KalleVilenius]

When I heard "writer's retreat" I came up with this: an eccentric reclusive billionaire gathers different writers from across the globe to his tropical paradise island and issues them the challenge of writing the ultimate book for a fabulous prize, but doesn't give them any criteria, so they each start approaching the project from their own direction. In between writing sessions they mingle and taunt one another, argue over their different approaches and play aggressively competitive volley ball games at the beach. I bet a real writer's retreat isn't as cool as that.

[@ATAKeithStewart]

We love that you guys just talk about random tangents, bad book ideas and food heists!

[@azraeldagda]

I definitely think jello is "Non-Newtonian" soup and cream of wheat being the mid ground between normal soup and NN soup. 😂

[@wylanvallotton4462]

Honestly good definitions. I move we make this definitive

[@lukethompson7083]

Not all soups have solids. By Brandon's logic, a bowl of tomato soup isn't soup until you add crackers to it. It was soup before the crackers, and afterward it is just soup with crackers. Milk is not soup. Adding cereal does not make it soup. It's still milk.

[@mussoletart8485]

but a tomato soup *should* have tomatoes?

[@B-MC]

Ah the Seinfeld "is soup a meal" debate.

[@Domaik_]

But if it's cooked in any way then it's soup, that's what he tried to say. and milk is pasteurized before being sold so you can say it has been cooked

[@gabrielr7511]

I mean if the people on the Boat are Brandon, Dan, and random person. I think the random person dies. Cause they are either the red shirt or Brandon and Dan lured them specifically to eat them.

[@JJMB27]

A Brdandon person.

[@jacobmoeller5345]

The real question is how many books will Brandon write while out on the raft?

[@joaopin]

Gazpacho is a soup and not cooked. It's made from raw blended vegetables :)

[@SEHipple]

This is exactly what I was thinking the whole time they were discussing soups - Gazpacho

[@Domaik_]

It's not a soup though, at least in the part of Spain where I live locals don't ever call it soup

[@masonwheeler6536]

14:56: "Jello is a non-Newtonian solid. I don't know what Jello is." It's a *sol,* a type of colloid involving a solid mixed into, but not dissolved in, a liquid.

[@joelrunnalls]

I make lemon glaze with maple syrup, for my cedar plank salmon. So delicious!

[@reillyliner]

I want Dan to write a book about an author who hosts a podcast talking about food heists, then, begins to plan and carry out food heists himself when the available stories run low. He gets away cleanly on multiple escalating heists, but his own deeds are turned back upon him when, as he gains great success and starts hosting his own book-con for his blossoming fan base, all of the food for the conference is stolen by a clinically insane group of techy nerds who have also kidnapped his daughter, boastfully thinking they could provide the author with the greatest heist story ever, inspiring him to write a book and paying them tremendous royalties for creating the experience. They force the author the wear a go pro with live broadcast features that stream for all his con fans to witness in the convention center while he goes on a high speed chase to rescue his child. While broadcasting, observing police notice some things about the authors behavior that convince them he is the architect Of the prior heists he committed, and they join the cross country chase to capture the author as he races to save his daughter.

[@vampirelogan]

I mean it sounds like you should write that book, Reilly Liner

[@reillyliner]

@@vampirelogan 🤣 I would love to if I can find the time

[@reillyliner]

@@vampirelogan Honestly I wrote the story comment to make you guys laugh but now I might actually write it for fun.

[@vampirelogan]

@@reillyliner It seems like it could also be done well as a short story and still be effective, since time is an issue. If you do it, post back here and I'll check it out!

[@connorbrown7455]

Glad to know that Brandon's kids won't interrupt his writing time for something trivial like a house fire.

[@Adam_okaay]

spent 10 years in the Navy, boat and ship aren't supposed to be interchangeable, but they're used interchangeably, unless you're a civilian then you get corrected.

[@wylanvallotton4462]

This is such a self contradicting comment

[@_--_--_---_-----___---_34564]

0ò8

[@kerlyluige8566]

I absolutely love this podcast (including the foodheists). But with no disrespect meant, now I cannot get "I am not a cereal killer" out of my head ...

[@wylanvallotton4462]

Salt is a food by definition. Otherwise half your food heists wouldn't count under similar reasoning

[@randomdude4505]

Don't you mean similar seasoning.

[@wylanvallotton4462]

@@randomdude4505 aaaayyyyeee! 😜

[@Yolen16]

Being Italian I can tell you that minestrone is pasta in a dense liquid made of vegetables, while minestra is small pasta in broth :)

[@jacobmoeller5345]

It appeared that Brandon was told for the first time that he would be teaching most of the classes on the retreat here, and he didn't so much as blink. The man is a legend.

[@jameshathaway587]

Hi Brandon and Dan, I'm hoping Adam can save this question an maybe put it to you at some point on one of your next podcasts... I've been loving your podcast for a while now... I like that you talk about your work and your industry (interesting stuff for a code monkey like myself), but I've also really loved hearing you two talk about other authors, books, TV and film - really reminds us that you are a consumer/fan of other media, just like the rest of us mere mortals! I've been a Sci-Fi fan a lot longer than a Fantasy fan, and I was overjoyed to hear you talk about "your friend Kevin" a lot - I've been a fan of Kevin's work since I first read his Seven Suns Saga twenty-odd years ago, and it was a treat to hear that you're friends. My favourite Sci-Fi book favourite series, however, is David Brin's "Uplift" Series; an Epic story with some great aliens/monsters, fantastic characters, and some seriously hard-core world-building! So, my question is - Do either of you also know David? How aware are you of David's Uplift books? Have you read any of them? Or what you think about any of his other works...? (e.g. I know Brandon said he was a fan of the Foundation Series - What did you think of "Foundation's Triumph"?) James H. (UK)

[@Justin.Danford]

Hey, so the Tourism Time Travel idea but when they go back in time, they accidentally end up on Dan and Brandon’s writer retreat ship and it’s up to the their kids who somehow become aware (and no one will believe them) of the plot to sink the ship to stop the terrible from happening. The children must use all the lessons, and predict all the tropes their writerly father’s would have taught them in order to foil the time interlopers and save the ship. B-plot, Brandon and Dan are desperately trying to workshop a project they can collaborate on, but, gosh darn-it, they just cant seem to find anything that works.

[@pogostick43]

I've definitely had a sub sandwich with connected carbohydrates.

[@PenDragonx]

What about sushi, is that a sandwich?

[@ThaneSton]

@@PenDragonx Sushi is a burrito.

[@PenDragonx]

@@ThaneSton What about when the meat is on top like tempura?

[@ThaneSton]

@@PenDragonx that's nigiri, which is an open faced sandwich.

[@PenDragonx]

@@ThaneSton I listen to too many weebs that feed false information. You're right

[@martini7454]

I LOVE 'bad' intros to podcasts. Do it ironically and I will be hooked every time. 😂😂😂

[@cosmerejunkie7931]

This is the highlight of my week!

[@jensopfeiffer]

Just FYI, the Spotify upload of this episode cuts off at around 14 minutes for me. I don't know if it's just a glitch for me, but it cuts off in the middle of one of Dan's comments about soup.

[@thetoucanking238]

This is also the case for Apple Podcasts, just to let everyone/anyone know.

[@Ben-ej1wl]

Yeah, this happened a few weeks ago as well, I think on the Hating Hades episode. The podcast was only 21 minutes long.

[@Mattothy]

Pocket Cast as well.

[@mussoletart8485]

works fine now, although it showed 14 minutes initially. now it's 38

[@flameg6659]

I'd probably personally call "going by myself to a secluded location in order to get a lot of writing done" going ON retreat, and going to a planned event with other authors TO a retreat. Is that a meaningful distinction? Probably not. But they also spent ten minutes talking about soup.

[@alicrastd3095]

These episodes feel like extra mini writing excuses episodes without the guest. I love it!

[@WRNGHAUS]

You guys are so funny. Thanks so much for doing these vids.

[@hussainalmubarak3506]

Here talking about food heist and over there I'm crying after Brandon shattered my heart at the end of The Final Empire *sigh*

[@geothack7538]

Hearing Dan's definition of a sandwich made me want to go to my favorite taco place, Subway

[@danwells9305]

The truth hurts, but we cannot deny it.

[@geothack7538]

@@danwells9305 I can't believe that you saw my comment. Thank you so much for replying. I love your podcast and your writing.

[@Envy_Dragon]

Surely there's a difference between _folded_ carbohydrates and _split open_ carbohydrates, right? A sub sandwich is not a taco, it is a hot dog - which itself is actually a breed of éclair.

[@geothack7538]

@@Envy_Dragon If you remember Dan said that hit dogs are tacos too. Personally I would consider hot dogs as a roll, in the same vein as a lobster roll.

[@MartinMCade]

Where does a gyro fit into this definition? Is a gyro a taco, or is a taco a gyro, or are they separate species within a genus of filled-folded-carbohydrate-foodstuffs?

[@angelalewis3645]

These guys are so entertaining!

[@RainbowFishSaysHello]

Dan is right. If pasta is not soup cereal is not soup. I feel passionately supportive.

[@blugobln85]

The first 15 minutes of this episode truly made me fully appreciate you two. LOL :D

[@whorhaydelfuego7190]

I'm pretty sure I've had some kind of fish, salmon maybe, roasted with maple syrup and it was amazing. The maple syrup heist is the first thing I thought of when I first heard ya'll talking about a food heist months ago. Does this mean you would interpret a root beer float as a soup?

[@lukemarvin]

Yeah I feel like maple glazed salmon is pretty common. But I DO live in Canada.

[@mrben522]

maple and cinnamon glazed salmon is amazing.

[@thomasmiron6336]

"What's up?", is probably my favorite start to a podcast ever.

[@MadAtreides1]

As an italian: Minestra: it has pieces of solid food still in it. Zuppa (soup): it is all rendered uniformly liquid. Vellutata: a soup of uniformly jelly consistency, usually made from potetoes.

[@edwinleskin3112]

This episode was jolly

[@comwom5176]

I love Dans t-shirt

[@kaspermoss8198]

Mistborn bears stealing honeyshard sounds like his friend just wants to use Honey Heist to run it :P

[@zacadamswrites9187]

I never knew that information about stolen food would one day be the height of my week. 🤣

[@SageVO]

I don't think cereal is a soup because in a soup, you want both the broth and the solid. Normally I don't want to eat the milk, I just want the cereal in the milk. For the taste. I am as likely to leave milk in the bottom of the bowl as I am to leave dressing on the plate after I've eaten what I wanted from a salad. So, cereal is a salad. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[@mikereed4594]

"As long as we're defining something poorly, I'm happy." is a great tagline for this show.

[@reywashere5284]

When Brandon gets boba tea, he's eating soup.

[@secondaccount1688]

Finally! I’ve been waiting big for the maple syrup heist.

[@efefregene]

Brandon working for 8 hours will basically be a very lengthy 'Study with me' video. I think a day/week in the life of Brandon (a writer) will be a lot more interesting though.

[@caleblarsen5740]

when you only post the 1st 13 mins of the podcast on Spotify so everyone has to watch it on KZbin

[@tomthoe]

A Lift-themed food heist would be excellent.

[@Lephi4d37]

I agree with a comedian who explained cereal is a salad. Milk is the dressing.

[@-Lindol-]

We just got tickets, see you there Dan!

[@danwells9305]

Woohoo!

[@P_Rodd]

"nah nah nah, cause cake is not a soup" I love it haha

[@johnswenson9119]

So vikings used to pillage salt while raiding villages. Salt has been an important commodity throughout the ages, and there have probably been some ancient food heists that have centred around salt

[@Hufdud]

Salmon cooked with maple syrup and brown sugar is absolutely amazing and worth the try

[@joeybelasco]

Iconic intro

[@CamillaNelson-zz9xd]

You know, the funny thing about the fish on the mountains comment is that because of erosion and soil layering over time you can actually find a ton of fish and seashell fossils up on the tops of mountains. :)

[@nicolle3517]

At tea houses, I’ve had watermelon based soups and cucumber based soups. Cold and never cooked, but processed. Eaten from a bowel with a spoon.

[@ashirtthatjusthaspantswrit3806]

Several years ago I started an Instagram that was meant to be a parody of food instagramers. It was just me posting pictures of my food after I was done eating. So it was mostly just empty plates with sauces or crumbs on it. It later kind of devolved to a regular sort of Instagram and now it’s been years since I’ve even opened Instagram.

[@galmannmedbart]

For some reason the Spotify version of this episode cuts of at 13 minutes. Thought you should know :)

[@fandros199]

So cereal in a bread bowl is taco soup?

[@watson-disambiguation]

Maple smoked salmon is pretty good, for mapley fish. I also had salmon with a maple bacon jam which was quite good.

[@bangboom123]

On stew vs soup, the key factor is whether you or not you can eat it with a fork.

[@MystiqWisdom]

Damnit, Brandon has convinced me that cereal is a soup. I think it's in its own big subset of soups to the point where it's mistakenly not considered a soup by many people.

[@bmike3000]

as a new englander raised on seafood, you should definitely try maple syrup on white fish. its actually very good.

[@Donnerjkks]

Dan immediately resorting to thoughts of cannibalism Brandon.....but there's fish in the sea!

[@NotMeButAnother]

But Brandon doesn't eat fish, so Dan will still get cannibalized!

[@NotMeButAnother]

Reasonably sure Gazpacho isn't cooked and is generally considered a soup. Also, by Dan's definition a sub isn't a sandwich.

[@danwells9305]

That is correct. Subs are tacos.

[@NotMeButAnother]

@@danwells9305 I can respect consistency.

[@zachthompson7126]

You bite into the taco, the taco shell splits. Boom, sandwich.

[@loganfurlong2295]

Italian Wedding soup. just broth with tons of little pasta balls and beat balls. good stuff

[@jamcdonald120]

13:00 but I get large club sandwiches at the store where there is a large loaf of bread that is only cut most of the way in half

[@stormbreak13]

You can technically ingest cardboard and motor oil.. does cardboard soaked in a bowl of oil become soup just because you eat it?- food classifications are a product of linguistics, not some inherent state of nature.. they are what we decide they are.

[@Duiker36]

They're mostly a product of culinary tradition and France making an active effort to be the cultural capital of the world. That's the entire reason that restaurants exist as a thing at all.

[@Bloodn0k]

That would be the sickest Instagram feed.

[@hoorayberet5126]

Is there a ringtone of Brandon saying "beret" in that Gollum voice (40:29)? Asking for a friend...

[@adamsoto4056]

My family has a maple syrup Salmon recipe that its awesome.

[@tineye5100]

So by Dan's definition, a sub isn't a sandwich since the top/bottom is attached on one side.

[@danwells9305]

That is correct. Same with cheesesteaks.

[@thomashearne4670]

The look of shock and horror on my face when Im listening to this on my commute home to find my wife had made soup for dinner

[@hudibrad]

Gazpacho is a soup you don't cook at any point, so going by that, I think the safest definition of soup is a liquid, that contains a major part of vegetables. I didn't want to give it to Brandon, but by this definition, a bowl of cornflakes is a soup, though I'm not sure any cereal qualifies.

[@pearanerd]

Gazpacho. The way I make it, it's not ever cooked. It is absolutely soup.

[@reganheath]

Idea for a show about writers: They're writers, but what they write affects their reality. Mysterious "drafts" arrive every day/week/.. in which someone dies or some other disaster occurs. They have to re-write it, in such a way, that they "save the day" but it has to be plausible or reality rejects it and the original draft occurs.

[@Catsushika]

"A puddle is not food" -Brandon Sanderson 2022

[@vampirelogan]

Dan has Quantum children!

[@georgeevans9044]

Heads up Adam, I came over from the world of podcasts (Castbox specifically), where the episode cuts off after 13 1/2 minutes.

[@michaelc.4724]

"Is gum food, Mark Rosewater?" Said the man who looks eerily similar to Mark Rosewater

[@BenRobinson92]

The real question is at what point melting ice cream with chunky mix-ins becomes soup.

[@caseyas8572]

"non-Newtonian fluid" Yes. YES. And yes cold soups are a thing but the only ones I have ever enjoyed were either hot soup that got refrigerated or cereal.

[@never_the_rose9567]

Someone needs to do a Rooster Teeth style animation of the maple syrup, fish, and soup discussion 😆

[@charou_studio]

My mom always prepares salmon in a maple syrup-based sauce, so those two foods are compatible, in my opinion.

[@danf6975]

In the Navy we almost never use the word ship, we usually said boat regardless of size That even includes Carriers like the shitty kitty

[@Cole_1]

I don't know who but everyone once in a while Mr.Sanderson sounds like a Futurama character. But I can't tell what one

[@elliotruiz3014]

Based on my rough, rushed, probably flawed math, the red bull heist was about 23 thousand liters of Red Bull

[@bmike3000]

your point about tuning out or unsubscribing once you start seeing spam / bot posts constantly from a writer you like is dead on. ive noticed recently that a scifi writer i really enjoy shows up in my feed constantly with ads about new books and i have stopped even reading the posts because they occur so often.

[@levidobbin5654]

No, no no, you're looking at it wrong. It's a circle with radial spokes. Going clockwise, you have soup, then stew, then pudding, then oatmeal (equal water to carb), then cereal, then pasta, then ministrone comes in at the edge of pasta, which leads us back to cereal in the grey area in between pasta and soup.

[@Robert-qq9em]

Speaking of salt, tristrategy is a new square-e game based around salt. If Brandon is into rpgs he may be intetested

[@Mara15613]

That's a cool shirt Dan!

[@danwells9305]

Thank you!

[@alexwithrow9262]

I scrolled for SO long to see if someone mentioned Dan’s shirt! What is it?

[@CerebrumMortum]

My grandmother used to say that "if your soup becomes too thick, call it a stew".

[@TheCryingGrumpies]

Probably somebody mention before but three spanish soups not cooked, gazpacho, salmorejo, ajoblanco