Watercolour Travel Kits ~ ArtA&A #31.mov

LezleyDavidson.com ~ I go through several tools and options for watercolour kits that you can throw in a bag and take off to go plein air painting. Happy Summer painting!!
Hey! Here's a helpful index and links:
0:00: Koi Watercolours:
tiny.cc/KoiField24Set
tiny.cc/KoiWatercolour
4:00: Watercolour brush:
tiny.cc/WatercolorBrush
5:05: Cotman Pocket Plus:
tiny.cc/CotmanPocketPlus
7:54: Cotman Field Plus:
tiny.cc/CotmanFieldPlus
10:27: Cotman Compact Set:
tiny.cc/CotmanCompactSet
12:27: Cotman Field Box:
tiny.cc/CotmanFieldBox
15:35: Arches Watercolour blocks:
tiny.cc/ArchesWCBlock
16:57: Fluid Watercolour Blocks:
tiny.cc/FluidWCBlock
Thanks for watching!!

[@tainadelcaribe]

I would love (and I have been eyeing it for a while now) the Field Plus Cotman palette, but filled up with Daniel Smith Watercolors!! And of course the Winsor & Newton Field Box because it just perfectly small. Thanks for sharing!

[@LezleyDavidson]

+aygo Yessss! I am loving Daniel Smith - I'm so on board with a DS travel box!!

[@tainadelcaribe]

I haven't seen it on their site, but if it is the one I'm thinking (long navy blue looks like the Sennelier one), I think it is too expensive. I think is like 60-80$; I'd rather use that for paints. LOL

[@LezleyDavidson]

I pop out all the pans anyway - so Daniel Smith for the win! They have some of the best mixed pigment texturizing paints! Yum!! (But I know what you mean... decisions, decisions about where my art supply budget goes!)

[@tainadelcaribe]

I know. I catch myself dreaming about having a set of each, but then again I like full sets so I guess it's not happening anytime soon! I need to win the lottery or something like that to go to dick blick, daniel smith and amazon and go crazy!

[@LezleyDavidson]

aygo Yes!! I have huge wish lists on Aboveground & DeSerres!! (Canadian art suppliers).

[@7greentoads]

The Koi kits are great if you have your own 1/2 pans or full pans to fill with watercolors, then glue them down to the bottom with rubber cement. That's what I've seen a lot of artist's do.You cracked me up with the waterbrush. I did that the first time too, lol.

[@gaby5391able]

I just bought a Koi watercolor 24 set and I don't see a problem with the pan holding the colors. What am I gonna do? Shoot it out of a cannon? Lol, I don't see the fact that it being flimsy a good enough reason to make it inferior to other palettes.

[@v50howAsh]

Hi Lezley im a huge fan of watercolour kitsand lovethe video thanksso much for taking the time to do this. but youve made me want more kits.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Oh great!! I love testing stuff out too - so I'm super glad that people are getting use out of it - win win!! :D

[@irishgirlee]

I'm a beginner and this was extremely helpful. Now I want to go out and buy all of them. lol. Thanks for sharing!

[@LezleyDavidson]

irishgirlee You're welcome! I'm familiar with wanting to "buy all of them". LOL!!

[@krazykrissy4350]

Don't buy all of them! Unless your fine with being broke.

[@LezleyDavidson]

What a great point!! I never thought about that being why I was always fumbling around with them. Thanks for bringing that up! :D

[@LezleyDavidson]

Yeah, filling the pans with water will totally splash it around everywhere. You'd have to wait until you'd settled in to pour the water into the pan. Some of the kits had their own water containers, with others you'd have to bring your own or use whatever water was on hand. Glad I could help - thanks for watching!

[@shereentimmerman4164]

I highly recommend Schmincke Horadam Aquarell Watercolor Pan Sets for travel. Their pan colors are the same as their tubes.. Very good paints and 30% off this week

[@LezleyDavidson]

Thanks Shereen Timmerman! Schmincke makes really good products. I've not had the opportunity to try out their watercolours.

[@mintyannotations2718]

Thanks, this was very helpful!

[@Nicky-sh8mx]

Thanks, that was a very informative video. I really enjoyed watching it.

[@mikartmilo]

I got one of those watercolour travel set where the palette pulls out from underneath, I did know that it pulled out, LOL GOT IT GIVEN WITH NO BOX! 😀

[@LezleyDavidson]

Surprise - more mixing area!! I love those sets.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Those are great ideas! I especially like the eye dropper idea - they help with getting the water where you want it without pouring it all over the place (which I have done).

[@winterwolf211]

I bought my Koi 4 years ago and it is a 24 set without the brush and without the sponge. I wanted the one on the video but it wasn't available.

[@jmt1235]

Ahhh the field plus kit is awesome but I just got the the one with 14 & a tiny af pan

[@LezleyDavidson]

Thanks @Nicky - it's nice to know I'm helping. :D

[@MrJoe7784]

Very nice job

[@Bubbless555]

Great video! Do you think that the cotman compact kit would be good for a beginner? I don't really plan on traveling with it. I just want some sort of nice watercolors that I can start out with. Thanks!

[@LezleyDavidson]

For sure! The Cotman Compact set is a great set to start with! If you want to be able to mix up more paint though (because the pans on the Cotman Compact are super small), you could buy a set of inexpensive tube transparent watercolours and a deep well palette. Then squish out a quarter of the tube into the palette wells and let it dry. Ta dah! Home set with plenty of mixing area and deep wells.

[@Bubbless555]

Thank you so much!

[@jjintheflesh]

This is awesome! I work in the field most of the summer - always looking for ideas of how to paint when out there. Where did you get the 48 pencil case?

[@LezleyDavidson]

I bought this at Curry's - but it's not available anymore. :c

[@lawannalampert1523]

They have them at Hobby Lobby.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Nice!! I love that pencil case.

[@bigf00t38]

Thinking about starting water color and your video helps. Thank you ;) gonna sub.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Great - I'm glad it's helpful! Thank you... :D

[@Slbsmith]

I love the little 3 compartment water carrier you showed. What is the name of it and where can I get it?

[@LezleyDavidson]

Oh noes... I just searched for them on Currys.com (that's where I bought it), but I don't see it listed. Hrmmm.... I will get back to you with a definitive answer (but I suspect it may be discontinued).

[@DharmaWorkChannel]

The Sakura brush pens screw on backward so that as you paint it doesn't unscrew and fall apart. It gets me every time. ;)

[@gaby5391able]

Also, I bought my koi sakura 24 set from amazon.com for 20 dollars. I'd recommend that instead of going to the store to get it.

[@jellysams]

This was extremely helpful! I've been looking for a good travel kit for awhile (working from a homemade one at the moment). I had my heart set on Koi, but those Winsor kits are amazing! 😍

[@LezleyDavidson]

Thanks Juji Sam! I agree - Winsor & Newton have really put together some amazing travel kits! Have a great summer!

[@phanicatthedisco2579]

Hi again, one more question, out of both the Koi 24 set, and the Winsor and Newton pocket Plus, which one would you recommend based on durability and quality of the paint.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Hi Jenn L! The quality of W&N vs. Koi is pretty similar. I've never noticed anything big enough to make a difference. I was disappointed with the quality of the plastic insert in the Koi kit. It's a vac-formed plastic and was less durable than the hard plastic of the Pocket Plus. In my estimation Winsor & Newton do travel kits right.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Thanks Madeline Olliff - that's a great observation. I hadn't noticed.

[@phanicatthedisco2579]

I am only beginning watercolor and trying to get the feel of it, how long do you think those half pans that comes with the kit will last? If I use it more as a hobby.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Hi Jenn L - they'll last for years. Maybe even for as long as you're painting. I used the Field Box pans for almost 10 years before I popped them out and filled the containers with artist quality. They go far. Thanks for watching and for the question!

[@celinebarberio9070]

+Lezley Davidson WOW, that's awesome. I am looking at getting a kit and am finding all this information extremely useful. Thank you.

[@nanaof6babies]

LOL you licked your brush...I do it too, Ill be dead from it someday. Nice video comparison.

[@LezleyDavidson]

LeAnn Lewis Ha!!! We're in good company - I know a lot of people who lick their brush. I think we only need to worry about the heavy metals like cadmiums... :D

[@JayH2003]

my right ear is so lonely...

[@LezleyDavidson]

I knoooooow +JayTheBirdFlyZ - I'm so sorry!! D:

[@1deleau]

Exactly! And they are tiny! I have the same W&N Cotman as you do (@ 12:00) and just saw them at Michaels yesterday for $47.99... sick! I really want the "Field Plus" (for going to the lake tomorrow!) but I can't FIND IT!!! Nor can I find the Koi brushes... I will search some other stores today! Another thing I am looking for is the detachable brush washer... I love the 3 compartments, so you can always have some clean water! It's so frustrating to not be able to just go and buy these things!

[@danakolpin1289]

Your video on the watercolor travel kits was very informative. i would like to know the brand of your travel kit and where I can purchase one like yours? Dana

[@LezleyDavidson]

I use Winsor Newton - there are links in the description box to all the kits.

[@EmDanielle1415]

I have winsor and newton sketch set, did you have trouble getting the paints to stick in their spots! Mine get moving about.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Mine were okay - but I know what you're talking about. Some of the colours pop out REALLY easy because they've got just the teeniest little dab of adhesive on them to keep them stuck in place. The binder in watercolour is called Gum Arabic and it's sticky enough to glue the paint down. What you can do is pop out any colour that's loose and scrub some water onto the bottom of the pan colour with a brush. Get it goopy and sticky and then push it firmly into the pan holder. Wait for at least 24 hours before you use it again so that the paint has time to dry and stick firmly. Good luck!

[@ItsLxyla-pewpew]

14:08 quick question.. did you just eat the water colour..?

[@ElephantsRock943]

The Cotman pocket plus actually has two trays that pull out of the lid, most people miss the second one because it's so similar to the shape below it. It doesn't hook on to the edges I don't think, but just FYI :)

[@LezleyDavidson]

Thanks +ElephantsRock943! I'll check that out.

[@ElephantsRock943]

+Lezley Davidson Great video by the way! Very detailed :)

[@Pan-lp2if]

I took my plastic insert out of my Koi kit and popped the paint into half pans, and stuck them to the bottom with blue tack. It's the 24 set and you might not like the texture of the bottom of the pallet, but it doesn't bother me. The cakes of paint fit best in the softer empty half pans that can be ordered fairly inexpensively on the Cheap Joe's website.

[@LezleyDavidson]

That's a great idea +Courtney Butler! My beef with the Koi kit was the cheap plastic pan holder - so this is a great solution.

[@Pan-lp2if]

+Lezley Davidson I saw where Gina Ahrens did the same thing. I have a pretty good collection of watercolors which I eventually intend to review but I can never resist taking out the "innards" and making them suit my needs or at the very least organizing them the way I like.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Courtney Butler Haha! Totally relate!

[@opal77]

Do they sell the field plus just as the materials and no paint? I was always wondering about holding water, and having a little space to clean your brush all in one. And this has a water container, and two little dishes! So you can use one to clean your dirty brush, and leave the other with clean water to second rinse or get water for the painting. And it has tons of space for mixing. Seems like just what I would need for travel painting ^-^

[@LezleyDavidson]

Exactly - it's perfect! ...but no. Not available without the paint. You can pop the paint out easily though. I replace the Cotman paints with artist quality in my travel kits.

[@opal77]

Lezley Davidson Ah that's a shame, perhaps it would be slightly cheaper without the colors you might not want there. I like to squeeze tube paint as you do and allow it to set. My preferred brand is Lukas ^-^ And I do a ton of mixing so all the space is appreciated. Thanks to you I definitely intend to buy it though. I do have one question if you don't mind, is it the sort of plastic on the mixing surfaces, where the paint sorta.. forms drops rather than puddles? Not sure how to explain it sort of, has the paint scattered everywhere and separated. Hope I worded that in a way that can be understood haha. Thanks!

[@LezleyDavidson]

AntiFormKeyblade I think I understand your question... My experience of most of the sets from Winsor & Newton is that the initial usage results in the paint "beading" on the plastic. You can still mix - it still works... but it beads for the first couple uses. After awhile (especially if you're like me and don't regularly clean off the mixing areas - I just wipe out an area that I need to mix in), the mixing areas stop beading and the paint puddles nicely. It's like you gotta work the shine off the top. :D

[@Jivehappy]

AntiFormKeyblade The plastic palettes tend to have a film on top from the manufacturing process that causes the water to bead. A good scrub with a gentle scrubby sponge and some dish detergent before the first use should take care of the problem. HTH

[@LezleyDavidson]

Yes! Jivehappy described it exactly. Thanks!

[@dirku63]

Thank you for your great video. I never thought that winsor & newton had so many different kits. Btw. you didn't mention the pocket box, the simplest and tiniest. You don't seem to have used all of them outdoors. If you had, than a few words on usablility there would have been fine, like pouring water out and in, if the water containers are actually large enough to rinse the brushes, etc.

[@LezleyDavidson]

I haven't used them all outdoors - I really like the Compact and the Field kit - so I've only had experience using them in "the wilds". But - very good point - maybe the folks who watch will add their experiences with the kits in the comments - thanks for the suggestion!

[@dirku63]

Lezley Davidson I see Compact... and Field Box or Field Plus? Btw. I forgot to say that this was 100% helpfull. Don't understand anyone giving thumbs down.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Hey Dirk, Thanks for the positive words - much appreciated! I have and use the Cotman Field set from 12:27 in the film - it's my go to if I'm going to be really out in the field - like maybe not even going to find water. The Compact set I need to have a water container with me, full - it's better for when I'm at the cottage. It's also my choice for when I'm painting at conventions and art shows - lots of colours and mixing area; tiny little footprint. Thanks again for the nice words - so much nicer than thumbs down! :D

[@GabrielMunizFerreira]

What do you think about Fabriano, is it better than Arches?

[@LezleyDavidson]

Fabriano is good paper. It's not better or worse than Arches, it's just different. Arches is gelatine sized - and they use a lot of it... which means that the surface fibres all lie down flat and it tends to be less absorbent than other brands of watercolour paper. Feel the surfaces of the paper at the art store. Fabriano and Winsor Newton tend to be more "fuzzy" than Arches - it's because there's less sizing in the paper. It's totally not a quality thing - just a preference thing.

[@Serenity63092]

are water colours useless once it cracks or can you still use it

[@LezleyDavidson]

Yep - cracked watercolours are still fine to use. They're just really dry and need some water and working with a brush. It doesn't take much to get good colour out of it. Viridian is the only colour (in all brands) that takes a real long time to re-wet and make smooth again. Viridian gets really flaky when it dries.

[@jmt1235]

Ah the cotman version of the one you use

[@LezleyDavidson]

Yes! I really liked the Koi sets, but were disappointed by the flimsy vac-form plastic insert. I don't have any existing pans and just squish out tube colour - so I wanted a more substantial plastic... Thanks for laughing - it's better than being a fool by myself in silence. :D

[@1deleau]

I can only guess at the original comment, but I have found a couple things I like to use to carry water... one is an empty syringe, and the other is a little eyedropper bottle; the kind the optometrist gives as a sample.

[@Manara111111]

for me.. I didn't like Koi watercolors.. the colors are pretty but they are choky .. if you are looking for are travel kit I advice you to take winsor and newton pallets.. or to take tubes from good brands and Meeden empty pallet and fill it

[@Krolted]

my left ear enjoys it

[@LezleyDavidson]

+I know that I'm amazing Awww - I'm sorry. :( It's better now!

[@g.rodriguez7445]

OLD VIDEO-- Complaining about Ze Paint Holders-- KOI does not sell individual Pan Colors--Nor do they provide their paint ingredients. Therefore they {KOI-Sakura} do not have removable pans. I actually really like the pallete set up with the 24 KOI travel kit. I also own the 14 set of W&N Cotman's-- The pallets are comparable; and the paints are very close in quality-both are HIGH Student Grade Quality paints. When it comes to price, I find that I tend to get a few more colors with the KOi over the W&N paint set-- I Also ownDaler Rowney 16 pan travel set (paints are high student grade quality)-- I like the palletes from W&N, and KOI better. I like the replaceable pans in W&N kit...and I believe I can replace the pans in my Daler Rowney kit..... With KOI, no such luck, but the brush alone can run up too $8 USD, and I really like the water brush when I don't have access to my normal brushes.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Prices will vary from company to company and across regions. I estimate the prices so that viewers can get a sense of approximate cost.

[@connordefty9219]

At 11:00 ur kit that u couldn't remember the mane of was the 'Windsor and Newton, compact 14half pan/7full pan kit' :)

[@ghostrickangel9638]

This video was so helpful thank you

[@LezleyDavidson]

Oh great! Thanks Ghostrick angel!

[@soulstar005]

cotman field boxes run for 36 bucks now on amazon

[@LezleyDavidson]

+soulstar005 That's better than what I paid ages ago. Thanks for the heads up!

[@JelliclesForever]

Great video it is very helpful!

[@LezleyDavidson]

Thanks *****!

[@hmr28]

Koi are actually dyes though not watercolors right?

[@LezleyDavidson]

No, they’re not dyes. They are lightfast which dyes are not, but Koi does not publish the pigment names used in their watercolours. They consider them a high quality student grade.

[@pesto12601]

Shhh... Mono Microphone so be sure you listen in your LEFT ear only... SHHH!

[@kaptainrogers]

Thanks. I was using the right only and was like, wtf is up with this sound :/

[@LezleyDavidson]

pesto12601 Geez - sorry guys... Glad you've figured it out!

[@pesto12601]

KaptainRogers Yup... its happened to me so many times now, that I tend to only use my left earpiece!

[@pesto12601]

Lezley Davidson No worries.. it happens!

[@LezleyDavidson]

Gah!! So frustrating!! I'm a huge online shopper now - specifically because I want what I want and I'll wait for it to ship... which doesn't help you at the lake today. Have fun!

[@videoknanlisa9262]

how many the watercolor Koi in video ?

[@videoknanlisa9262]

+Video KN Anlisa oh sorry . HOW MANY MONYE THE WATERCOLOR IN VIDEO ?

[@LezleyDavidson]

Hi +Video KN Anlisa - the Koi watercolour in Canada was between $20 - $28 depending on whether it was a 12 set or 24 set of colours.

[@AnnyBun]

I cant open my cotman set because the blue thingy keep closing back

[@LezleyDavidson]

+Anny D (Bunny26) Oh no! Which set? Is it stuck? USE THE FORCE.

[@AnnyBun]

+Lezley Davidson cotman pocket plus, I dont think so, that blue plastic just wont stay flat. So the mixing area sliding up a little

[@LezleyDavidson]

Is it new? Exchange that bad boy.

[@AnnyBun]

in my country they don't accept exchange.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Anny D Even if it's not working properly? Where do you live?

[@cutedogmom1]

Is there sound with this video? I could hear the music at the beginning but no talking later.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Yep... I can hear myself talking... Anyone else having trouble hearing my commentary?

[@eunjipark9855]

Hi, I'm having a hard time with the sound also. I can hear the music in the beginning like cutedogmom1, but there is no talking.

[@LezleyDavidson]

I can hear the audio no problem. Make sure your device and the little volume control on the video itself are not on mute? (Not helpful... sorry)

[@ukuleila691]

Hi friend

[@LezleyDavidson]

Hey!

[@Milkugh]

She isn't struggling that much

[@rajankumar_art]

Nice #rajanartist

[@styrofoamturtle7024]

Why do you keep estimating the price of them? Don't you know for sure? If you don't know for sure then it's not very fair to say that it's expensive.

[@suzieplum05]

Would have been interesting IF I could hear it.

[@LezleyDavidson]

I'm sorry you can't hear it - I don't know what the problem is. I can hear everything fine at half volume.

[@suzieplum05]

I wasn't being sarcastic... it really DID look interesting.I am a water-colorist and really wanted to hear these reviews.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Oh no... I didn't mean to be suggest you were being sarcastic - I totally don't know why there's no volume for you. :c

[@carolmelancon]

Suzie Plum I am continually amazed at how often I think the sound is messed up on a video and eventually find I have managed to hit the mute button by mistake. I wish it wasn't so close to the play/pause button area. My husband often finds he needs to tell me something when I'm in the middle of watching a crafting tutorial and don't want to miss any instructions. I'm looking at him with the "just a second" look and trying to pause the video out of the corner of my eye (it's also embarrassing how often I forget I can click anywhere on the screen to pause) and I think that's when it probably happens.

[@suzieplum05]

Carol...... You could be right. ! I can hear you now although I (as far as I know) have changed nothing. GREAT to hear what you have to say about these now. I have the Koi larger palette and LOVE it, not so much for the compact but for the paint. Beautiful colours . I use an eyeliner brush that is in a retractable tube when I use it "en route" . I also have W and Newton travel set and love it as well. I have also like you made my own palette with my own fav paints . Im sooooooooo glad i can hear you now. Its like listening to myself ( only not in an Irish accent) ! Thankyou for the reviews .

[@jmeyer3rn]

Whoa!!! Looking at price points... Schminke... yikes!!!

[@LezleyDavidson]

+Judith Meyer I know right?? It's why I went with a student grade kit and replaced the paint with my artist quality tube colours. (That being said - Schminke is really good.)

[@jmeyer3rn]

I've never priced them. I jumped over to amazon and looked them up. I'm comfortable, but would feel most guilty even if this was the only item I ever bought on amazon.

[@pw6titanium]

+Lezley Davidson ...I like to go to Officeworks here in Australia and buy a plastic documents box_ A4 size, then I go to the art stores and buy full pan or half pans and then glue them into the box then fill them up with my paints. I then use GAC sealer + white acrylic paint from golden acrylics and paint all surfaces. This stops the paint from beading. With the box I have a huge mixing area and enough space for small brushes and water bottle . I do this for my gouache colours for opaque studies and for my transparent w/colours. In a typical A4 box, you can put 36 ! colours( full pan )around the sides; not that you need that many. cheers

[@jmeyer3rn]

Thanks. Your art stores carry pans? Not here. Maybe I'm going to the wrong stores.

[@sauceislame5916]

The Sakura koi kit is actually only 20 dollars! And now there are kits with even more colors! I myself got the 30 colors one for 25 on amazon

[@artbymalcolm42]

how about writing a script, um um um um, and practice um um um.

[@LezleyDavidson]

It's always those that have created nothing of their own that are so eager to criticise. The more videos I make, the better I get at editing.

[@ItsLxyla-pewpew]

Lezley Davidson oof that clap back u go girl.. lol

[@jesse.s931]

does my right ear not exist to you?

[@LezleyDavidson]

Sorry +derpy hoodswag, it doesn't in mono recording. Derp.

[@beacreates4370]

Wait... you gave away winsor and newton watercolors? Why don't you just buy the cheep portable tray and put your better than winsor and newton watercolor? Also I think portable watercolors should be about the quality of the paint not the tray that they come in. Sure the tray is important but the watercolor paint is what really matters...

[@LezleyDavidson]

Artist4life I gave away Cotman colours and replaced them with artist quality W&N colours that I squeezed from the tubes. I like a good quality plastic tray that's not going to fall apart after one season being thrown into my bags.

[@beacreates4370]

Lezley Davidson Is there really that much of a difference between artist quality and student grade?

[@LezleyDavidson]

Artist4life Good question. It depends on what kind of paint you're using and how you're using it. If you're painting acrylics really thickly - there isn't going to be a lot of difference between a student and artist quality paint. Student quality paints have more fillers added to bulk out the paint without using pigment. Artist quality paints have much higher pigment loads and less fillers. You see the greatest difference when glazing and thinning paints. I can thin down an artist quality paint way further than I can a student paint and still have a brilliant, transparent glaze. Student quality paint becomes chalky, or the binder will break down resulting in "pieces". Student quality glazes don't adhere as well to the support either. I actually compared the pigment strength of student vs. artists quality watercolours that you can check out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYqTqnqXiZh4kLM

[@Katerina-kqkq]

Koi make nice sets but their watercolors are shit cuz it gives you sludge when they are not new.

[@LezleyDavidson]

+Катерина Дунина Good to know! I still prefer squishing out tube colour. Old habits I guess.

[@LezleyDavidson]

Really? Maybe you could contribute to the shared knowledge instead of complaining about nothing.

[@sharoncruise6457]

maybe try the things out before going on line instead of wasting time struggling with opening things on video

[@ejtoy60]

voice is muffled and blurred, which is why I gave it a thumbs down. the products are good and I own the Koi watercolor pallet.

[@pgreenx]

+ellen toy I heard her fine. its nice that people go to the trouble to make these