What if Stealth Rock was in gen 3?

[@thepunisher6674]

Stealth rock without defog has always been hectic can’t imagine how busted it would be in ADV

[@ryanmahon2956]

Dude you're on fire!! Which sadly makes you weak to rocks

[@roidadadou5456]

Tried it, I’ve never seen as much Starmies as in this one tournament.

[@bananaspice1967]

They need to *Speeeeen*

[@VJ-Vice]

I’d imagine misdrevous and dusclops also see an uptick to spin block psychic starmie

[@ricardoludwig4787]

​@@VJ-Viceproblem is they also get incredibly worn down by rocks o they won't last long

[@jettbrandes2051]

“What if Rotom had it’s variety typing in Gen4?” Cool future vid? Love to hear your thoughts

[@yonatangale1452]

I think offence actually gets better with rocks. Most defensive staples take a hit from rocks which lets sweepers hit their win condition faster. Wallbreakers can suddenly do their job easier. Zapdos is forced to run offensive if you use it. Skarmbliss is still strong but something like blaziken could suddenly be scary quickly. I think it would be interesting.

[@keiharris332]

Exactly. Rocks are not a bad thing.

[@RohanJoshi910]

@@keiharris332I feel like the concept of a hazard that punishes flying types harder is good, but the fact that it stacks for other rock-weak types makes it too punishing.

[@Eroil]

​@@RohanJoshi910charizard crying falling from ou down to nu

[@honjon666]

"Why the second spike is bad" is a video I'm now absolutely dying to hear

[@Scutezo]

Late but he made it

[@honjon666]

@@Scutezo Fortunately, i am a bkc diehard. I rejoiced when it dropped, lol. Thanks for looking out!

[@oneobstyboi5697]

The streak continues. What a run. Banger after banger

[@crobatman4448]

Don't traumatize the Charizard and Moltres fans like this.

[@palyername]

from the outside the competitive scene (i just like learning about it through videos), while i understand the importance of passive damage in moving games along and making bulky walls manageable, what i don't like about stealth rock is the fact that it's typed and the fact that it's (to my knowledge) the only hazard that disproportionately punishes certain types for switching in, whether that's reasonable for pokemon of that type or not. for example ice types already have a lot of problems surviving in games and they get smacked super effectively just for switching in if rocks are up. it's just always been weird to me that it's typed and some pokemon resist it and some are extra punished just because of their typing. like toxic spikes has special interaction with poison types, but it doesn't do *extra* damage to any non poison types - just spreads a status that affects all pokemon equally outside of special cases (like immunity to the status in the first place). i think it's less fair to say sandstorm is fundamentally broken when it has more interesting impacts as a mechanic than "punish switching with bias toward certain types" sort of like i didn't agree when people immediately wanted to ban terastallization (i do understand that some types are sandstorm *immune* and it buffs a stat of one specific type but it disproportionately benefits a few types instead of punishing them if that makes sense). it adds more depth to games mechanically and to team building imo (which, again, i don't know that my opinion means much given that i don't actually play competitive pokemon, just observe from the outside). i'd even feel differently if there was more than one type of hazard *like* stealth rock that added variation and didn't push out certain types from the metagame as a rule - like if a certain type of hazard complemented your team better you could use that instead of stealth rock, and it wouldn't be guaranteed that certain pokemon would always be weaker/harder to justify supporting because the hazards were always of a certain type. idk, maybe the metagame would centralize toward one specific hazard type and just introduce the same problem for other types, it just feels weird that entire types of pokemon are more difficult to use because of one single move (rather than more intricate interactions in the metagame, like which pokemon and movesets are common threats). sorry for writing an essay when i essentially have no idea what i'm talking about lmao. stealth rock specifically and the competitive attitude around it has just always been very interesting/baffling to me. maybe a video around what would happen in a metagame with hazards of types other than rock would be interesting, or maybe it wouldn't to anyone who knows what they're talking about lol

[@piszanshid1953]

Game freak should scrap rocks and spikes for a new hazard that just hits every pokemon for the same damage regardless of typing or if it's grounded. Every pokemon just takes like 10% on switch in or something

[@lucasmartelli4204]

What if there was a held item that made it so all turns involving that Pokémon ignored the physical-special split in favor of the original type assignments? This would apply to all calculations, therefore changing both offense and defense. Let's call it Broken Clock

[@EvilApple567]

I find it hard to imagine giving Skarm any weakness to passive damage besides the two rarest forms in leech seed and burn not being a positive toward its balance, even if it gets the move. Without recovery rocks would be the one thing actually deterring it from getting nigh riskless, auto switches in so many situations against so many Mons. If we're retroactively adding things, boots might be an interesting addition to prevent certain Mons from getting obliterated by hazards with the rocks addition while forcing others like Skarm to choose between negating rocks or healing in sand.

[@DidgeridudeEX]

Gen 3 OU is my favorite metagame, largely because it lacks Stealth Rock. It's the last generation where it feels like almost every Mon has some kind of a utility.

[@GIR177]

While I understand Stealth rock is annoying to deal with, it's also one of the only things stopping every following generation from devolving into braindead pivot move spamming switch-fests. And even that progress was set back with the introduction of heavy duty boots.

[@KayJordan17]

What if Heavy duty boots was introduced along with Stealth rocks?

[@shun1255]

Now Im thinking how weird Gen 2 would be if Choice Band was in the game. That could be cool.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

CB Machamp would pick off an unboosted Lax

[@OneMoreDesu]

​@@ShinyTillDawn That's a pretty obvious Gengar switch in, no?

[@booshywaters3726]

@@OneMoreDesu Basically comes down to mindgames because +1 Machamp Earthquake vs. Gengar: 357-420 (110.5 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[@yonatangale1452]

Banger vid idea

[@OneMoreDesu]

@@booshywaters3726 Oh for sure then Haunter takes over with levitate

[@CoralReaper707]

Disgusting. Don't you dare harm my precious superman team.

[@mrdestructoo]

next video: What if Tyranatar was ground, not rock

[@oopsalldeoxys5060]

Finally skarm cant come in 100000 times for free vs stall

[@tecul1]

flygon would be a viable pokemon

[@lordinfernape4753]

I know Latios and Nidoqueen (even tho now nobody uses it) contributed to Infernape being less viable in gen4, but what really messes me up is rocks, like damn Justice for me

[@et34t34fdf]

What if OG gen 1 blizzard was in gen 3?

[@the_blahhh]

Would love to hear a video on stealth rock alone in general and why it hasn't been banned in almost every generation it's in. Clearly it's no longer about it being about banning a move instead of a Pokemon since they're clearly no longer above that ever since banning baton pass and swagger in ORAS and more recently with shed tail, and it's no longer about it being centralizing but not broken, ever since overcentralizing was the main argument that was used to get rid of Aegislash in XY. A move that is "mandatory on every team" and warps the viability of entire groups of pokemon is obviously the most broken anything can get in a vacuum, and I get it's more skillful than BP / Swagger / Shed Tail, but it's been allowed to "ruin" so many metagames, it's still kind of baffling to me other than the explanation that people have dealt with it for so long, they can't imagine playing without it anymore.

[@SkorpTS]

I kind of agree with this, at least before the changes to Defog. Magic Bounce was introduced earlier, but it's very rare and most of the mons that have it are not going to make it in OU. Stealth Rock is the most game-warping move in the entire series (that isn't already banned) because it singlehandedly makes so many mons less viable. Yeah, Volcarona is still good, but that's because it's so busted that it itself would've probably been banned in every generation it's in if Stealth Rock didn't exist. Things like Yanmega and Moltres just have their viability absolutely ground into the dust by the existence of one move that doesn't even have to be used against them directly.

[@the_blahhh]

@@SkorpTS On the other hand, fire / flying types that might check volc, like moltres, rotom-h, zard, talonflame, gyarados, togekiss, mega pinsir, etc. are pushed out of the meta or can't check as reliably since they themselves are crippled by SR, so who knows. I also think defog makes it more manageable, and I don't know about post ORAS, but I can say that in gen 6, SR is still super mandatory and defog is not even close to a great answer.

[@SkorpTS]

@@the_blahhh Defog is definitely not ideal, since it halts your momentum and mons like Bisharp can abuse it, but the fact that it's something easier to use than Rapid Spin and also much more widespread is a massive improvement.

[@duncathan_salt]

There's a simple answer, of course, which is that bans are always just a matter of whether people want something in their metagame. There's never been some kind of objective or consistent measure of what's banworthy - that's not only impossible, but it's probably not desirable anyway.

[@duelme1234]

so using your logic of "A move that is "mandatory on every team" and warps the viability of entire groups of pokemon is obviously the most broken anything can get in a vacuum" (and expand it slightly to incorporate items, abilities, and pokemon. I don't see the difference in principle between banning an item, ability, or move since all have been done before, maybe you can educate me), should we also ban the follow? gen 2 snorlax gen 2 spikes gen 3 sandstorm gen 3 spikes gen 5 permanent weather gen 7 z crystals

[@OGRScintilla]

Lead meta game would be very interesting. Maybe Areo would be king?

[@Hologramburrito]

what if defog worked in gen 4 and 5

[@CMSonYT]

Bans were a lot less complicated in gen 3. Wobb was banned just to avoid infinite games, other than that, it followed the tradition of only banning the legendries. Celebi got unbanned from GSC. But, the smogon admins or whoever was in charge of tiers back then must've thought about tiering to some degree, because one day while I was on smogon's netbattle server, they announced a quick tournament to test if mew should be allowed; so a bunch of people made some quick teams that day and ....immediately afterwards realized mew shouldn't be in ou.

[@emmetth3726]

Snorlax: “why must you hurt me so”

[@DidgeridudeEX]

Stealth Rock being type effective and taking away 50% from 4x weak mons makes it one of the dumbest moves in the game.

[@tecul1]

i like how this is also an "excuse" to showcase CI, what a samaritan kev is

[@bkebradley]

I am pretty firmly in the anti-Stealth Rock camp for gen 3, I don't think the types most affected by it deserve it. If it didn't have a type calculation like Spikes, or perhaps only were super effective on Flying and did half to Ground and Steel, then I would certainly feel different about it, but Fire and Ice didn't deserve the 2x damage.

[@C3l3bi1]

wdym fire has the second most resistance in the game its an insanely busted typing, why do you think mons like heatran are so good? fire is just insane typing offensively and defensively but stealth help keep it down, the real victim of rocks are ice types that suck

[@bkebradley]

​@@C3l3bi1I'm talking about gen 3, where the only Fire Pokemon that get any usage are Moltres and Charizard, neither of which are even that good

[@ShinyTillDawn]

​@@C3l3bi1Heatran is good because it's a steel type with flash fire.

[@bkebradley]

@@ShinyTillDawn I was going to say that even in future generations, SR seems to have neutered the viability of the majority of Fires, other than Volc and Mega Charizard, I can't think of a Fire type that has been OU since SR that doesn't also have a secondary type that resists SR, though granted I do not really play anything but gen 3

[@ShinyTillDawn]

@@bkebradley 9 tales (in 2011), Blacephalon, Victini, & Talonflame

[@QAQISH650]

What if sandstorm did the same damage in gen 3 like it did in gen 2

[@CMSonYT]

What if stealth rock was in gen 3? ..... It would suck

[@paz8723]

what if more passive damage for just trying to play the goddamn game

[@mauwus4322]

I would like to see some changes to stealth rocks. Stuff like make them less damaging so that pokemon weak to rock don't suffer so hard or have a similar move but of a different type instead of stealth rocks for a generation or just remove it entirely for a gen to give some breathing room for other hazards to shine for once. All of these ideas are pipedreams but it interesting as a though experiment, at least to me.

[@ricardoludwig4787]

I feel like spinning would become much more important since gengar is gonna be infinitely worse if it still runs its bulky sets, which is whatd probably seal the deal with offense becoming worse. Yeah you're making many staples of defense get worn down much faster, but they can actually afford to run bulky starmie or claydol and you simply cant punish them as hard as you could in gen 4

[@yonatangale1452]

Gar cant go bulky anymore. It only does this to take any one hit from a scary sweeper and pretty much one rocks switch in and its useless. At least offensive gar can get some use.

[@cmck362]

How would you feel about adding more entry hazards that function like stealth rocks to the game, but with different damage types? Then make them overwrite each other so you could only have one down at a time. One of the things that feels unfair about stealth rocks is how it pushes out things 4x weak to rock. If there were say 4 different types you could choose from maybe people won't default to always rock making it a bit more fair? Thematically, I think grass, ice, bug, and steel could work. The grass one can be called Proximity Vines.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

2:30 i guess adv UU didn’t get the memo. they banned like 40 mons instead of letting things drop down a tier

[@ryankeathley995]

rocks are way too strong of a hazard for meek ADV

[@squidheadss7105]

More technical theory idea but maybe interesting: What if IVs/EVs still worked the way they did in gen 1 and 2? Alternatively, what if gen 1 and 2 IVs/EVs worked like newer gen ones?

[@stllr_]

speaking of alternate stealth rock timelines.. what if stealth rock was ice instead of rock?

[@Maximus7th]

This would ruin my favorite Gen lmao, at least if left as-is. A hazard that affects Flying types is nice, but it screws over Ice, Bug, and Fire types way too much, especially in a Gen without Defog.

[@griffin8762]

please keep em coming

[@TheHero136]

Charizard: NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Noooooohoooohoooooo… That is what happens if SR was added this generation.

[@lesqueegee]

The streets will know star

[@moratgurgeh]

That Jirachi bulk though

[@Toomanian]

What if choice band was in GSC / Gen 2?

[@evilcow666]

The biggest suprise is learning that there are other spikers other than skarmory in adv. (lol forretress) What isnt a suprise is bkc insisting that gsc isnt all stall.

[@PokeBrodie]

i love stealth rocks

[@duelme1234]

What if boots was in gen4? :)

[@jackieboy8923]

What if sandstorm boosted spdef in gen 3?

[@OneMoreDesu]

Oof, that 2% rachi survive would have felt terrible

[@funkymachine]

Imo stealth rock is good but they chose a horrible type for it. Any type is better than no rocks, but if it were me I would choose electric or fire.

[@shadownite3378]

Im of the opinion stealth rocks are a poorly designed move to begin with, and I for sure am of the camp that rocks would be unhealthy for the metagame in gen 3, especially with spin being the only way to remove hazards

[@notapear]

Flygon stays winning.

[@jayplay8869]

It’s in gen 1 and it honestly breaks the game without defog and or rapid spin. Let’s go fam.

[@Hanesboi]

Not watching the video but I assume: Moltres and Charizard get fucked. Skarmory is weaker, thus eliminating it is easier. Because of these two events, Metagross is #2 in the tier, and Physical Offense with Magneton is actually more than viable.

[@Mepphy99]

eliminating the little niche moltres and charizard have? nah man

[@catandfishfc]

Should RBY unban tradeback moves? You can legally get those moves in-game, why this arbitrary ban? Just ban anything that's broken by normal means imo.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

because people played RBY OU before 1999.

[@EvilApple567]

It's just a very strange circumstance that hasn't been replicated since. The concept of a new gen fundamentally changing an old one (through actual means and options, not just through realizations and ideals like Baton Pass and Dug for example) breaks the structure of the meta and all the time/development it had throughout its modern existence, so the controversy is understandable and logical.

[@FedEx867]

NO

[@peternicholas3719]

Stealth Rock is like Spikes, but it actually hits Skarmory!

[@Dankfort]

God no, one of the worst mechanics ever introduced

[@tayonic5499]

All this discussion about old gens not having suspect tests makes me think about the similarities between gen 1 Taurus and gen 4 garchomp both forcing luck based 1v1s, so with that in mind what would gen 1 be like with Tauros banned?

[@Xalvadore505]

There's a few key differences there - Tauros can be paralyzed with Twave, Chomp couldn't. Chomp could also basically remove its counters at first with either Yache Berry or Choice Scarf while Gen 1 has no items, so Tauros will always be outsped by Alakazam and the like.