What if the Catholic Church had taken over the West?

Link to Forks in the Timeline, an excellent alternate history card game, highly recommended. I've played it and it's legitimately really fun. forksinthetime...
Link to my Patreon, with lots of cool maps and the first 2 chapters of my History of the World out.

[@Klaesick]

Well then, the Christian Minecraft Servers would be dominate.

[@grahamturner2640]

Klassic Mario Bros If Minecraft, or even the internet, would exist.

[@Klaesick]

@@grahamturner2640 True

[@ryanchungus8972]

@Orion Fettes much kek!

[@hfreddy127]

Lmao

[@yonathanrakau1783]

Ooooo noooooo

[@i_dont_know_any_good_names5587]

Looks like the battle Pope took the 'form the Kingdom of God' decision

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

He decided to Deus Vult and become Emperor of Mankind.

[@Mr_Valentin.]

0_0

[@BoyanTrenchev]

No, he completed the mission end the skism.

[@Crusader-ct1qv]

***Sees video title*** Me, a catholic: ***oh yeah, it's all coming together***

[@loldiamond1017]

Me, a Lutheran: *Burning* Ah crap

[@zebjwest6709]

Phil Collins when did they mention being tradcath crusaders, they just mentioned they're catholic

[@loldiamond1017]

@@boozecruiser No point in speaking with you in a respectable manner since you are, in fact, a pathetic loser.

[@loldiamond1017]

@Troll King Nobody asked for the garbage that your mouth throws up

[@ramalam5536]

Troll King nice grammar.

[@premiumcookie7492]

"Mentioning Medieval France's high population" should've been on Whatifalthist Bingo at 14:27

[@aetu35]

What if the Roman Empire never existed at all? Edit: What I mean is what if Rome never became a conquering power? What if it was crushed in the Rex Romana times by some random Etruscan/Samnite coalition?

[@thedoruk6324]

+PruCo *happy carthagian and celtic noises*

[@theultimatefreak666]

Oh yeah it's paganism time *decorates the irmensul*

[@bakthihapuarachchi3447]

The republic would continue

[@forgetful9845]

Alt history hub has a 3 parter on this

[@aetu35]

@@forgetful9845 Whatifalthist can do better

[@thedoruk6324]

And now - *EvErYoNE eXpECTs thE inQuisiTiON!*

[@casbot71]

I was expecting to see that comment.

[@TheStanfordKid]

Europe would be mired in dark ages forever.

[@joselugo4536]

It isn't not now?

[@Johnnycdrums]

A noble and Holy endeavor.

[@theyoutubenomad.3035]

@@TheStanfordKid true

[@genosselennart6940]

What if instead of Europe developing an individualist culture and Asia developing an collectivist culture it was the other way around? (maybe the greeks develope something simmilar to Confucianism and Asia developes something simmilar to western philosophy and culture)

[@virtueleague2005]

I once read an alternate history book called Imperium Bohemorum and one of the scenario was that chinese go around africa and discover portugal which leads to confucian rennaisance.

[@nichl474]

"develope"

[@shorewall]

@@islamisthetruth3402 Ideas are like pandemics, they spread freely. The only difference is that ideas may arise in different areas independently.

[@soggyherman7454]

that would be very interesting, but I think I read somewhere that the ideas a culture generate are based on everything about the culture and its geography. chinas culture and geography at the time of Confucius are what inspired him to come up with those Confucian ideas, same way with the greeks.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

Then we would be all using chinese made computers today... oh, wait.

[@Alin-ql6it]

what if Prussians colonized east africa like portugese did before 19 century?

[@angelopueyygarcia43]

This is a question I never taught I needed yet I can't seem to stop on thinking what if it indeed happen.

[@Alin-ql6it]

I just thought about an interesting idea idea :))

[@SC-zq6cu]

Its very improbable and wouldn't last for long even if it happened.

[@evvec1490]

for alternate subject what if Friedrich Wilhelm I didnt Sell Gold coast to Dutch and somehow got money elsewhere to fund his Prussian quality army

[@Alin-ql6it]

I did't know prussians had gold coast I know dutch sell to english ty man for a history lesson :)

[@Prosegoldmusic]

i wanna play forks in the timeline probably the only promotion on youtube i’ve ever thought of indulging your show kicks butt dude. the best by far of the alternate history channels. keep rocking !

[@dustin628]

11:20 how interesting, that's the same excuse people give when there's talk of colonizing Mars or the moon... "we should be fixing the earth not going to another planet blah blah" like we as a species couldn't possibly do both.

[@trevorwilson6683]

I mean, I support space exploration, but we as a species have never really shown an ability to “fix” anything

[@aureliousofphoenix7811]

@@trevorwilson6683 I fixed the broken "world peace" by blowing up the earth.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

@@trevorwilson6683 Because "species" dont fix anything, individuals do :)

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

Exploring another planet as a matter of scientific interest is a cool thing - and we can definitely spare some resources for it. Placing our bets for short term survival on colonising another planet instead of fixing ours, though, would be madness. There is absolutely no realistic scenario in which that works out on the timescales we need it to. Mars is a nearly airless barren wasteland; if we could find a way to make that habitable, we could find a way to KEEP the Earth habitable with a tiny fraction of the effort. Basically the only good reason for considering colonisation of another planet as our way out would be a straight up existential threat to our planet. Even for an asteroid or comet, deflecting would be easier than colonising Mars. If our planet was literally about to explode for causes completely out of our control, then escaping to Mars would indeed be a reasonable option.

[@yonathanrakau1783]

Yeah literally this generation wants stability so bad im afraid this circle that delayed when the european exploited new world would turn upon us and instead of scientific revolution, a stagnation and finally surcumbs to the next great extinction due to overpopulation

[@surya-vyaghrasya]

14:18 So glad there's a history KZbin channel that realizes South-East Asia with the exception of Vietnam has always been culturally Dharmic/Indic.

[@johncenaplayingstarcraft9580]

Agreed. It's always pissed me off when people call southeast Asia "basically china" when Vietnam is the only one even with a passing resemblance to China Like, there's a reason why many use the term "Indochina" because it's culturally Indian/Bharati but visually Chinese

[@micahistory]

Wow I could have never imagined just how much this would have a changed

[@WhatifAltHist]

I'll check out your videos, I know you've wanted me to for a while.

[@micahistory]

@@WhatifAltHist thanks so much. You don't know how much this means to me. I really appreciate it

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

@Crisbideioz Well, in the video it is stated, that the Earth would not stop turning, it would only turn slower ;) Also nobody said, that catholics were stupid, but that modern age was driven by fierce competition among westerners. Politically and religously united Europe would of course slow down that process. People living in 21st century would likely never known world war, genocide... or steam engine and modern healthcare.

[@theoldsaxon6484]

@@OkurkaBinLadin True. Decentralization was what really propelled the West forward in a lot of ways.

[@TapOnX]

@@OkurkaBinLadin There would still be a lot of decentralization and competition due to feudal fragmentation and Europe's geography, which favors multiple seats of power.

[@Mr.Flame2000]

What if Portugal United Iberia? (Portugal was much more peaceful with other european powers so they could manage to both maintain the spanish empire and expand their own one)

[@LuisRincon-wr4dm]

With peaceful you mean they were bootlickers.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

Peaceful people dont forge empires, Mr. Flame :)

[@Mr.Flame2000]

@@OkurkaBinLadin The portuguese had one if you didnt know

[@Mr.Flame2000]

@@LuisRincon-wr4dm no they just didnt start wars with everyone

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

@@Mr.Flame2000 No, I did not heard that. That about peaceful part.

[@joeysavings4756]

What if the Greek Orthodox Church took over The East?

[@micahistory]

almost like it did

[@paulraines9635]

So, our timeline? Maybe throw Poland in the mix to spice things up.

[@Bowsespen]

Byzantine Emperor was religious leader so nothing different happens if it was before russia became orrhodox.

[@Kapnohuxi_folium]

What if the oriental orthodox took over the current Islamic territories in North Africa and the Middle East

[@gutsjoestar7450]

@@dejankojic4293 don't pretend to not know

[@yakirchernin6015]

If may nitpick a tiny bit, only because few month ago, I was in lecture about iterature in Ottoman Empire- Islam didn't banned press. They just wasn't fan of. There were even Sultan who tried to make it a thing, but people didn't bought. At some point few Ottoman officals tried to make a news paper, and had to force their underlings to buy it In Islam there was a culture of Calligraphy,and more romantic view on books and their spirit.

[@phantomthiefirwin9631]

*What if the Catholic Church took over the West?* Me: Shakes fist in Protestant

[@micahistory]

me: gives middle finger to Catholic

[@Bowsespen]

Me: Gives middle finger to religion.

[@CatholicPiccolo]

Me: Brujer

[@Crusader-ct1qv]

***Laughs in Catholic***

[@micahistory]

@The Nova renaissance ooooh the edgy pagan. It's so funny to see you guys. I know you're a nationalist (which is great btw) but stop acting like being a pagan is cool. I know 100% for sure that you know that paganism is bullshit and that you don't pray to Thor

[@canaanosborne2937]

Whatifalthist was Trad-Cath the whole time.

[@rebeccaanderson5626]

Traditions catholic bare still Catholics

[@chanchingcheng8204]

The protestant reformation was not about "reading" the bible it was about interpreting it differently than what the Church teaches, When Luther started the "reformation" there were 15+ Catholic german bibles and that's only in german dialects counted

[@danilovonsquawk572]

"Iron is like men. You don't use your best for the army." What? What would you use iron for then? Plows?

[@ikengaspirit3063]

Yes

[@CausticSpace]

@Mr. Pokhrel As you're typing on a Chinese made product.

[@casbot71]

A flip side, what if the Protestant reformation swept through the Catholic church so that in effect the Catholic church reformed into the Protestant faith, and their was no schism [disclaimer: I'm half Catholic and half Protestant - religion was not discussed at the dinner table and apparently each sides family was invited to only their Faith's baptism, and didn't know about the other ceremony]. Fun story: since I didn't understand religion, as a five year old at school when it came time for religious classes, I just followed the popular kids who happened to be Jewish. So I went to Jewish scripture classes for months on end, until the teacher talked about God's covenant with man - circumcision. We all went and checked ours out, and mine was different. So that was mentioned next time in class by the other boys and the penny dropped. The scripture teacher was aghast because I had witnessed sacred secrets, so my mother was called into the deputy principles office and had to explain that I was a Christian "mutt". It didn't help when she told the scripture teacher that she didn't see what the fuss was, since Jesus was Jewish anyway.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

That simply would not happen. The video is about church/corporative competing with secular/tribal interests. Protestant vs. catholic schism goes much deeper. For example bishops, who turned from catholic to protestant immediately privatised holdings they were administering for church. Turning them over to their own family members. Church itself would cease to exist as all its former employees would start serving their personal, family and tribal interests.

[@yonathanrakau1783]

Catholic did reformed during the protestant reformation causes the council of trent to happened and reform some corupt thing in the church they only didnt accept the protestant demand for theological changes you know bible and teaching stuff really

[@yonathanrakau1783]

@Deus Vult PX he is a jew so he is not

[@elliotwagstaff8685]

I’d recommend becoming Anglican, it has the best of both worlds

[@totustuus5279]

Fun fact, that happened in 1964!

[@darthcalanil5333]

You greatly underestimate how much the church itself drove the propagation of learning and science in Europe. literally, every single one of the first universities was started by the church. Every single "father" of modern science saw themselves as devout Christians. Comparing the situation to the Islamic stagnation after the 13th century grossly overlooks the message of the ideology. You yourself said that the christian view is that God is rational and so must be his creations (and also as humans being created in God's image, it's our duty and privilege to know said creation..aka study it and do science), which stands in stark contrast to most other beliefs, not least of which is Islam. I'm not saying we would und up with today's technology, but science would most certainly NOT have stagnated.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

Thats all true. But it doesnt change the fact, that rapid progress was fuelled by fierce competition among westerners. Much stronger church WOULD absolutely stomp the warmongers and early capitalists, significantly slowing down the progress aswell (talk about side effects).

[@nichl474]

Copernicus and Galileo would like to have a talk with you

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

@@nichl474 Every age had its martyrs. Assange would have a note or two for you, friend.

[@nichl474]

@@OkurkaBinLadin Galileo wasn't imprisoned and Copernicus' books cracked down upon (he died before being able to get arrested) because they martyred against Christianity. Instead, the Catholic Church wanted to suppress the sciences that worked against their teachings.

[@mihirmutalikdesai]

Here's an Indian example: The Nalanda and Taxashila Universities were created and operated by Brahmins (not all of them are priests, it's complicated), many people flocked to them for learning, but what was mostly taught was philosophy. There wasn't much science taught, and yes, the number zero was conceived by Aryabhatta, but that was a philosophical invention, a way to characterise nothingness. After Chanakya, there were no others to expand on strategic war studies, so that broke down, and after the Islamic invasions, they were destroyed.

[@thedoruk6324]

The Endless Array of the Crusades likely ended the Byzantine Empire/East Rome extremely quickly, likely there would be thousands of medium sized or small balkanized states with barely any technological improvement

[@TapOnX]

The relatively large number of states in Europe made it easier for new military technologies to be adapted, though

[@mingchina4499]

What if the Ottomans lost the Crusade of Varna

[@apc9714]

It's super interesting. I think it could have collapsed, since it's European part would have been attacked by the balcanic nations and the Asian part would have been whiped out by Tamarlane in 1405

[@mingchina4499]

APC 219 and if the Ottomans lost the crusade of Varna the personal union between Poland and Hungary could have stayed

[@apc9714]

@@mingchina4499 I don't think so. An Polish-Hungarian kingdom would have been overstretched and culturally devided. I think it would have been broken by his powerful neighbours such as Lithuania, The Holy Roman Empire and the Teutonic order. Hungary supported the Teutonic against Poland in the fifteenth century. I can see eastern Europe divided between the Austrian, Hungarian and Poland Lithuania, with the exception if some small greek/slavic kingdom in the south.

[@mingchina4499]

APC 219 I know the personal union would have most likely broken, like it did in real life, due to the nobles wanting it to break. But It would be cool if it did work.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

@@apc9714 Ottoman state (like Seljuq before it) was centered around its ruling family, not symbols or centralized administration (like traditional empire). Thats what people get consistently wrong about the historical "Turks". Regardless of Varna, no turkish neighbours were strong enough to put them down for good. Not in 15th century. Youd have to colonize entire Anatolia for that.

[@enslavedbytruth]

Some scholars have hypothesized that, like the Catholic diocese in Iceland, Greenland may have had an unofficial bishop first, specifically "Eric the Bishop" who was sent to Greenland in the year 1112, though others claim he was a missionary bishop, and there is no record of his return

[@ontasbulent5709]

What if the Ottoman Empire industrialized Parallel to Europe

[@emperorconstantinexipalaio4121]

Öntas Bülent Very hard with their societal structure. The state and Islam would have to make a lot of reform.

[@ontasbulent5709]

Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos IIn the beginning the Ottoman Empire was modernizing thanks to some smart sultans. But through time bureaucrats took more power.

[@emperorconstantinexipalaio4121]

Öntas Bülent As he stated in this video and many other videos, its conservative clergy, which cracked down on reformers and logicians, made it virtually impossible to fully modernize. The Ottomans have to become more liberal and less oppressive.

[@ontasbulent5709]

Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos If it wasn’t for the Jannisares the sultans would have modernized the military

[@emperorconstantinexipalaio4121]

Öntas Bülent Ummm, it’s much more complicated than that. The Janissaries’ seizure of power was a side effect, not a cause.

[@shzarmai]

Great video, this was very enjoyable :)

[@jwil4286]

Idea: what if the Great Schism never happened?

[@EvansdiAl]

only watched half, but, by the holy ghost, is this one of your best videos

[@Tony_Margabro]

Can someone explain how the European powers had the nerve to challenge the papacy in any aspect of life, despite their religiosity? It just seems like something they’d consider heretical or even blasphemous to say the least.

[@francogiobbimontesanti3826]

If the pope dared to do anything he could be murdered or invaded. And you can’t call for crusades against Cristians.

[@grubbybum3614]

@@francogiobbimontesanti3826 I think he means socially too. Like everyone was religious, how did the French king not get paranoid that his own troops/court would overthrow him for being a heretic.

[@soupordave]

Most European nobles owed their land and political power to their king/liege, not the Pope. Remember the Papal States were a gift from Charlemagne. And it was Charlemagne who led and funded the wars against the Saxons and prescribed the death penalty to any who refused to convert to Christianity.

[@theoldsaxon6484]

@The Nova renaissance Ever heard of the Swiss Guard?

[@theoldsaxon6484]

@The Nova renaissance My point is the Papal States had an army, but more than that it had great influence politically. The Pope rarely had to fight for himself, because he would use political tact to gain allies to fight for him. It's hardly an easy task to depose a Pope.

[@Bribridude130]

There are many sources saying that East Asian collectivism and centralized governments are a result of rice farming, which requires a high degree of irrigation.

[@XxZekeKnightxX]

I had a similar idea spawning from another video: "What if the Hapsburg family dominated/unified Europe?"

[@malarobo]

Renaissance was born and developed in Italy, a catholic country, before spreading in northern Europe. Thus even if all the west remained catholic, the modern age would have had the same development as our timeline. And the colonialism started with Spain and Portugal, another two catholic countries.

[@YourBoyJohnny94]

The Renaissance was thanks to those old Byzantine scrolls.

[@malarobo]

@@YourBoyJohnny94 That's partly true. Such an important phenomenon has many causes. To name a few: 1) the rediscovery of the classical world due to the arrival of Byzantine documents (as you say) 2) the awakening of life in the cities and the increase of trade with the birth of a bourgeois class capable of replacing the feudal nobility, relegated to the sole task of making war 3) without the burden of feudal government, first city republics (the free "Comuni") and then regional republics developed 3) competition between those regional states Italy was divided in many states, all competing with each other, all without links to the feudal world. They protected arts and science to increase their prestige. With the financial support of these states a new culture was born which, rising in the Italian scene, has naturally taken up elements of the Greco-Roman culture abandoned in the Middle Ages (which instead was a creation of the nordic peoples). From Italy it then spread to the rest of Europe

[@appa609]

"The catholic church is the most important organization in history"

[@michaelhowze8198]

Its pretty far up there perhaps not number 1 but certainly in the top 10.

[@lordswixon4948]

The Catholic Church is very well around the top 5, as they shaped Western Society.

[@PaoloCavestro-ey9bb]

What if Europe, Middle East, America and Africa had adopted the cult of Makima, Revy, Cutie Honey, Marin Kitagawa, Trixie Tang, Judy Neutron, Marge Simpson, Wendy Corduroy, Lois Griffin, Sailor Moon and Maddie Fenton instead of Abrahamic shit?

[@IrishMappermapsmore]

Technically not just Christianity. Aquinas actually took quite abit of his influence regarding rationality from Maimonides (Rambam) in Judaism

[@fintan9705]

Everybody everywhere would know what it felt like to be an Irish teenager when your mother asked you who said mass.

[@Dylan-lw1xc]

As a Catholic I really wish we had a Catholic run nation still.

[@loldiamond1017]

Elaborate, please. I don't know if you are calling for the rise of theocracy or something else.

[@Dylan-lw1xc]

LOL Diamond 101 I want a Catholic nation similar to Israel where Catholicism is the only religion allowed to be practiced and all political leaders or leader are Catholic with the best interests for both the church and people are the only thing that matters. In this scenario I would also like to see it be almost entirely of European decent.

[@ecurewitz]

as a Jew, I say no

[@loldiamond1017]

@@Dylan-lw1xc Sorry for the late reply. As a filthy Protestant, I do not which to see that happen, I prefer pluralism (don't know if that's the official name but it is in Victoria 2) where the state respects all religions but encourages Protesta- I mean a state religion.

[@Dylan-lw1xc]

LOL Diamond 101 I understand but one catholic state would be nice and I dong believe in violence between the Christian religions

[@Thecognoscenti_1]

The Song Dynasty was NOT founded by a peasant rebel, on the contrary, its founder, 趙匡胤, was a distinguished military general of aristocratic stock.

[@cuddlemuffin.9545]

Yea everyone could read that

[@georgecatton]

One reason I think for why Europe remained so divided is because historically is was poorer/weaker and in a worse geographical location than its neighbours until it had reached a point where no one single group COULD take power as everyone was to independent. Edit. On this it actually happened in Europe (one group took power and crushed everyone else) in regards to classical Greece and Carthage, they got rather far on philosophical and technology but then came the Roman and Macedonia empires that crushed it and Europe wouldn't really return to that for another 1000 years

[@dustin628]

It's so rare to hear someone say the west is exceptional. It's true but for some reason it's very frowned upon to say it?

[@FlyxPat]

It came close. The reformation was on the verge of taking everything north of the Alps. The counter-reformation recovered France, southern Germany and the Habsburg lands, reducing Protestant territory by half.

[@vincenzorutigliano5435]

This is a more elevated video than I expected, had to delete my joke comment:[

[@Vitorruy1]

:/

[@Kartal49ful]

3:19 this part aged very well 😂😂

[@flyingfox6977]

Last time I was this early Constantinople hadn’t fallen yet.

[@bladefox-ik5iy]

What if Yi Sun Sin was never born/wasn’t an admiral and didn’t save Korea from the Japanese Invasion

[@stonesfan1994]

What if the partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth never happened?

[@nichl474]

Poland would still lose lots of wars. They were Russia's bitch at that time and got backstabbed by them. I think "What if Poland-Lithuania's power never waned" would be better. For a long time, the Poles were stronger than the Muscovites and were able to do what Napoleon couldn't - defeat Russia and siege down Muscovy. Their power eventually faded due to Poland becoming kind of an oligarchy and not having many allies and that not happening is very much possible "What if Poland-Lithuania" reformed its constitution earlier" would be cool too.

[@octaviacoquus8857]

I wouldn't say the church protected the natives from the spanish/portuguese. Bartolome de las casas was the exception, not the rule. Most of the church had opinions like that of Juan Gines de Sepulveda, who considered the natives Animals who could not become christians. Or Diego de Landa, who burned books and people in service of converting the population. The church, and specificall the inquisition/reqconquista zeal was *bad* for the natives.

[@MrMirville]

The inquisition killed very few people compared to modern ideologies and practically all books and persons that were burned were white sectarians (many protestant missionaries in the case of Spanish America), not natives. Most of the natives were decidedly pro-Catholic and often more fanatical than the Whites. Maybe it was bad for them but that was the choice of most of them.

[@leonarduskarolusiuliustant7498]

I think you are wrong on the philosophical tendencies that would have prevailed. The thesis of the inherent irrationality of God was advanced in the Christian West by nominalists such as William of Ockham, who were condemned as heretics by the Papacy. This would most probably have happened even in this timeline. Also, the Church's hegemony wouldn't have been political (even thought the Church would have still played an important political role) as much as spiritual and moral. This would have left some space for other political and social forces, thus saving some degree of competition. In the end, the factors which caused the Age of Exploration were still there before the PoD, and some expeditions had already occurred (for example the one of the Vivaldi brothers) so I think it would have still happened. Maybe European colonialism would have been different.

[@JediAcolyte94]

What if Bleeding Kansas failed? What if the Raid on Harper's Ferry succeeded? What if the Meiji Restoration failed?

[@innosam123]

1:52 That came out of nowhere, wow.

[@vexinghiraeth8116]

Nick Fuentes just jizzed his pants This post is by Groypergang

[@archie2038]

6:02 This is the most European map of Europe ever.

[@noneednoneed5752]

interesting timeline, and thanks for recomending the Matsuda book

[@muhammadabdullahhanif8860]

Al-Ghazali was not inherently irrational, he only critised metaphysic of philosophies at the time and deem it as unproductive.

[@shorewall]

And look where it got us. :D

[@MrMirville]

His negative influence is exaggerated : he never said that Allah was irrational but that the philosophical systems then studied, especially those based upon Aristotle, were anti-creative and would lead to stagnation and that direct contact with the divine spirit would make people more imaginative and more open-minded to unknown things. He was actually very modern.

[@alberain]

Form Over Fact Belief Structures Western: Equality

[@vitorbortolin6810]

I disagree, the church would be strong but not like qing burocracy. Beside, the holy roman empire with its fracture structure was very competitive and very inovative. A fragmentary france would even increase competition and progress. Besides, the thought of thomas aquino was dominante and should not change. Besides, exploration was done by portugueses and after spanishs so the age of exploration would still exist, because they were very catholic states. Therefore, this analysis is garbage

[@ArthurWKLo]

The Song dynasty in China was not founded by a peasant rebel. Rather, it was actually brought about by a military coup by a general, who then became the first emperor of the dynasty. He tried to prevent any other general from attempting to imitate him by emasculating the army and inserting what we'd regard today as commissars to supervise army units. Centuries of ineffectual wars against the nomads ensued, culminating in the Mongol conquest.

[@davidrosner6267]

What’s the role of Russia and the Orthodox east in this timeline?

[@grubbybum3614]

I think Poland expands into that area. And orthodoxy never splits in 1000ad.

[@noradlark167]

Damn, French really knows how to handle religion.

[@DioscuriA85]

I'm not convinced that the existence of a pan-European state would have changed the trajectory of technological innovation. Competition generally breeds innovation however there isn't a shortage of enemies outside Europe. It might have been more effective to have some measure of unity within European borders as to be able to finance more innovation. Also, I agree with your sentiment about the British Isles. They are likely the most antagonistic force that has historically prevented the consolidation of power in continental Europe.

[@sstsaldana24]

Hey bud you're doing a great job! I always enjoy your videos. I dont always agree with you. But..... You do your research. In short great job amigo! Also im going to check out this game looks like fun!!!! Orale guey hasta luego!!

[@NewHorizonsBeats]

This scenario is very similar to Harry Turtledove’s “through Darkest Europe.” Its a great book, I highly recommend.

[@thomasm8317]

What if? The salvation of more souls.

[@codyyancey1367]

so the purge of the templars in france never happens

[@emperorconstantinexipalaio4121]

Catholic here! God bless.

[@stantorren4400]

Just leave my kids alone and we’re good :)

[@roundduck7005]

Catholic gang

[@emperorconstantinexipalaio4121]

Stan Torren Lmao

[@deepvoicedude4749]

2:24 I live in St. Louis so I wouldn't mind this arrangement.

[@anvos658]

I feel like this assessment underestimates that good possibility that the Papal State dominating Europe could have led to a new series of Crusades or just plain wars against Islam that would have avoided things stagnating as you suppose.

[@oliverstianhugaas7493]

This is a good timeline, only thing that could be better would be *What if the Byzantine orthodox church mended the great schism and turned EUROPE orthodox?*

[@veraxiana9993]

What if the Orthodox church was more powerful than the Catholic church during post medieval times?

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

That did happen, in a way. At the end of the 19th century Russia was arguably strongest single empire on the face of Earth. With tsars claiming to be protectors of all eastern christians. Orthodox church was however never unified and centralized like the catholic one. Its patriarchs were subservient to the state.

[@connormurphy683]

A better choice for the "universal empire" of Hindu civilization would be the Marathas. Their founder Shivaji was the one who founded the idea of "Hindu swaraji", Hindu self-rule. Sort of a proto Hindu nationalism (a tolerant one though). The Marathas were formed in response to the centuries of Muslim rule and came to dominate the subcontinent. The Mughals were basically irrelevant by the time the British started taking over.

[@InfernosReaper]

Imagine if magic were real and used by the Catholic Church? Oh wait, that's just A Certain Magical Index

[@InfernosReaper]

@Rhymes of Men Magic isn't real, because if it were the world would be vastly different as a result

[@InfernosReaper]

@Rhymes of Men No, just on basic sense. If magic were actually real and could do things, then it would have huge implications for the development of civilizations. Unless the magic is so abysmally worthless that you can't even be sure if it's actually magic, people will study it and do things, with each generation getting a little better than the last. Also, kinda funny ya call magic demonic when there are old testament examples of people using magic and not being labeled as fiends by the servants of the Almighty.

[@tylermech66]

7:40 "Japan wasn't dominated by a single class" wut? What do you call the warrior class of the samurai than? The Emperor literally had no power!

[@sodiumai3144]

I dont know if you did this but could u do one on if the great schism(orthodox and catholic schism) never occured, idk if it would change much so I am sorry if it would be to boring

[@sauron7839]

*WHAT IF ROME HAD NEVER CONQUERED THE HELLENISTIC REGIMES?*

[@nichl474]

Why not?

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

Subscribed.

[@MrMirville]

What you say is false : if the West had remained unified under catholicism, there would have been faster scientific progress, though a somewhat slower and more cautious industrial transformation (that would have happened nevertheless). The proof of it is that Northern Italian civilisation remained far more creative, artistic, inquisitive and interesting than the Germanic one until the late 18th century and after. Germany would have looked more like Austria, and English America like France. Scientific progress needs more standardization and unification than fantasy and catholicism would have provided a common language for concepts. The Reformation did NOT help the cause of free enquiry : quite the contrary it subjected Northern Europe to much more sectarian thought and put and end to the Golden Renaissance. Science and technology alone without the pursuit of beauty and charity result in civilisational states that limit further scientific discovery. Catholicism could have evolved into a rational synthesis of experimental science and religious dogma like Shivaite Hinduism at some point, with the difference that Hinduism is too disorderly.

[@firekoovin3347]

Cool

[@OhSanjiBoi]

What if the Mali Empire colonized the Americas? What if Venezuela was a Prussian colony? What if Haitian Empire succeeded in uniting all Afro-descendant people? What if the Confederacy joined the Axis? What if Sweden colonized India? What if Nigeria was united by Oyo and Sokoto? What if Hashamite Arabia formed?

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

"What if the Confederacy joined the Axis?" - This is the only question I can possibly answer. IF confederacy still existed, then it wouldnt join Axis, because Axis WOULD NOT EXIST. Central powers would win WW1 without United States interference, therefore Hitler would never came to power in Imperial Germany. It is also very likely Germans would turn east and crush young bolshevik state, reforming Russia as its puppet state.

[@OhSanjiBoi]

@@OkurkaBinLadin Yeah that's what I meant. If US just took a few states away from the Confederacy but let them live to see WW2. But that does make sense.

[@ЖудаМ]

World would be a better place

[@asnekboi7232]

Why

[@Hyperion2705]

the only reason that comes to my mind is that daily lives would be WAY more simple

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

@@asnekboi7232 It would not be "better", but different. 1. No world wars. 2. No holocaust or any other form of ethnocentric extermination - thats pagan/secular stuff enabled by industrialization. In this timeline tribals would be subservient to religious leaders and industrialization would come much later if at all. 3. Modern health care and welfare state likely wouldnt exist. Technology would be less developed. No internet. 4. World would be less globalized. 5. No "socialist revolutions". People like Marx would be burned at the stake as any other heretic.

[@davidgalindez4856]

Catholic Church is omnipresent in my country (Mexico)

[@TapOnX]

Maybe there would still be some competition, due the conflict with Islam and rivalry between regional nobles, merchant and church officials, similar to what we've seen in Italy in our timeline. Plus, having less religious wars could result in more freedom of thought and greater prosperity.

[@TapOnX]

@Pecu Alex Yeah, I don't think there would be that many non-Catholics in Western Europe. Philosophers of nature could potentially fare a bit better than in our timeline, as historically, most of the excesses against them happened during the counter-reformation zeal.

[@Ribulose15diphosphat]

Didn't the Ottomans invent cannons ? So at the point they come to Europe, the technology would have been available anyway.

[@Richard_is_cool]

1309 isn't picked as a point of departure nearly enough.

[@EuelBall]

Another great video! BTW, what is that font? Never mind, found it, its "Caslon Antique".

[@DistributistHound]

My hipotesis is that scientific and technological development would have occurred fuel not by war or greed although slowly by the desire to fight famine, disease and means to end slavery, poverty also exploration tech would had been fostered by the evangelization efforts and competition with Islam

[@ДАРТАНЬЯН-з2щ]

What if WWIII errupted in 1962? ( in scenario where nobody use nukes )

[@The_Custos]

This can happen in medieval 2 if you start giving the Papacy land.

[@glitchy6449]

We should bring back the crusades. Change my mind

[@nichl474]

Counter-crusades (jihads)

[@cardoso1313]

What if the portuguese never get her independence from Spain in the first time.

[@nichl474]

*her independence or *its independence not "his independence"

[@suggestiveguy]

@@nichl474 portugal is transgender nowadays and likes to be called "he" now

[@cardoso1313]

Sorry I am not english

[@nichl474]

@@cardoso1313 Me neither

[@JJ-si4qh]

7:50. Why is it that in some societies war and lack of unification cause constant poverty, and in others, it forces improvement?

[@usuarionaoidentificado9918]

State vs State wars generate progress, as different groups with different skills and mindsets, but usually evenly matched, compete for dominance. State vs Insurgents can also generate progress, but not allways, as one side is trying to change the status quo, usually for the better. Proxy Wars generate chaos, as the warring sides are at the mercy of foreing entities, who are not being directly affected by the conflict, thus, they go on for as long as they can afford it, not caring about the consequences inside the warzone.

[@hdufort]

You just get a different Reformation later on...

[@genericyoutubeaccount579]

I think you are massively overestimating the population of Europe in 1300. France had about 13 million people and the Papal states had about 1 million. Still a massive gap though. Another thing to consider: The wars in Europe caused by mercantilism would eventually lead to a massive European war, in our timeline the Napoleonic wars. After that war, the European powers, fixed the borders of europe and shunned territorial expansion inside of Europe. The borders were also arranged in such a way as to create a balance of power. i.e. when the Russians tried to take Crimean, and alter the post-Napoleon delicate balance of powers, the other European militaries stepped in. This held until 1864 when Bismark launched the first war of German Unification (Second Schelwig War) and 1859 (Second Italian war of Unification. Regardless, if you were an ambitious general from 1815-1859 you had to take your dreams of glory to other continents. Or become Garibaldi. The French Invasion of Mexico was a ridiculous affair that makes no sense from any strategic point of view except in the context that France was prevented by the other powers of Europe from expanding into its neighbors and thus upsetting the delicate balance of powers. So they had to look REALLY hard for places to find glory. The same goes for the British colonization of Australia. It makes 0 sense why Britain would choose Australia, a wild land literally on the other side of the planet, thousands of miles away from the nearest trade route, to set up shop. The Opium Wars also occur in this context. Most of European expansion can be explained through mercantilism + need to spread their religion. And I don't see how that changes with the Catholic Church in power. They would just be more inept at conquering new lands.

[@OkurkaBinLadin]

Hello, 1. Mercantilism was form state capitalism, fuelled by fierce competition of emerging nation states. Religious and administrative unification of Europe would prevent that from happening. At the same time it would significantly slow down any academic progress (for the same reason), so industrial warfare wouldnt be possible. It simply wouldnt exist at the time. To put it in perspective in this timeline, people in 2020 might be just around inventing their first steam engine. "They would just be more inept at conquering new lands." - Much like Chinese and muslims in our timeline. Yes.

[@antoniomariamacri7500]

9:10 Turtledove "Through Darkest Europe" 's watching you.

[@vincentcleaver1925]

Louder! I can't turn the volume on my cell up any further!

[@melbaker9495]

I suggest you read more on the Mission system in California and the destruction of the various Aztec books. It is beyond a leap to say the Catholic priesthood "protected" native Americans. Of course it was based around their belief that they were saving souls, but the Mission system was absolutely brutal.

[@sct1718]

Well it's some more than others. Not all burnt books. And they were truly educating them. Unlike the Americans who murder them and put them in camps, and the sneaky Canadians who simply scammed them out of the land either way.

[@stormhawk31]

Dude. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except The church would NOT take anything like the path of Islam, because it is a core tenet of Christianity that God is NOT irrational and does NOT act randomly or whimsically. This is one of the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity. The Islamic view of God is that he is capricious and random, doing whatever he wants as it suits him. Such a God would indeed make studying nature pointless, since it would essentially mean there are no reliable laws of nature to discover. It all depends on Allah behaving the same way today as he did yesterday, and tomorrow the same way he did today, which is by no means guaranteed. In contrast, Christianity believes that God is Rational and orderly, and that, therefore, nature can be understood, as it will reflect God's rationality and order. And, the Bible gives us reason to believe this. For example, in Genesis 8:22, where God reassures Noah, "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.” Or Hebrews 13:8, which tells us that, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." This is essential to Christianity, because God's immutability and reliability is the only thing that guarantees our salvation, especially since, though justified, we still sin. If we couldn't trust and rely on God to keep His word, we'd have NO assurance, and be cast into the sea of works righteousness and despair, which is one of the difficulties Muslims face. Because Christians believe we can rely on the constancy and assurance of a rational, orderly God, natural philosophy (science) is not a pointless exercise, because we can be assured that today will be the same as yesterday, and tomorrow will be the same as today, as long as Earth remains. That makes inductive and deductive reasoning, and the scientific method, possible, and is the bedrock of the modern technological world. So. In a world where the Catholic church ruled, the technological society we have today would still exist. There would, of course, be differences, and I doubt technology would advance at the wreckless, breakneck speed it does today, but the world would still have seen technological revolutions coming out of the West. But the natural conservative attitudes that a Catholic-dominated West would engender would mean that we would be more cautious about what technologies we allowed and what ones we didn't. For example, I doubt we'd have seen the internet and social media revolutions that have caused so much havoc in the 21st century - at least, not without CAREFUL, deliberate consideration of the consequences. 😉

[@itapi697]

I don’t think that if the Catholic Church controlled Western Europe would stop innovating in Europe. Christianity is a religion that believes in a greater sense of Individualism. I still think that colonies would still be established, but slavery wouldn’t be a thing in the colonies. Or a schism in this alternate scenario would happen result in this alternate world’s version of Protestantism.

[@ikengaspirit3063]

I think that the Catholic Church would still slow innovation, not because of its ideology but by the nature of large bureaucratic organizations in order to maintain power. Imperial Rome did similarly at different times. However, the Peripheral states like Poland, Russia and Britain could still survive and I would suspect colonization would be a very slow affair, slow enough that the Americas would mostly survive. However, with much reduced internal wars and the church holding great influence I think what we would see is a sequence of large crusades against the Turks, Mongols and into North Africa. Maybe the Ilkhans conquer Egypt with Church help.

[@voxveritas333]

OH YEAH, the ROMAN church really protected the Amerindians and others, huh?

[@ikengaspirit3063]

Yes they did. Thdy are literally the only reason Chile and Argentina didn't genocide the Ameridians of Patagonia and Aragunia.

[@13gladius28]

But England did develop a heresy in the form of John Wycliffe (1330 - 1884) who's philosophy paved the way for the protestant schism

[@GorgutsFan1998]

I hereby declare this scenario based

[@ramonruijgt4532]

What if belgium never left the Netherlands.