What If Theon Stayed Loyal? (Game Of Thrones)

[@crimsonECH1DNA]

One thing that didn't get touched on that also probably occurs; any scenario in which Robb maintains his authority in the North, I do t that the assassination of Jon at the wall happens. Cursed made sure to respond to the request for more numbers for the watch by sending loyalist to the crown. In a world where Robb remains the king of the north, I doubt Allister feels emboldened to try and lead an assassination against his brother.

[@Hektols]

Agree, the Starks are the biggest supporters of the Watch, that's the main reason the Starks who join are prefered choices to become Lord Commanders, if Benjen didn't disappear he would have been named Lord Commander and Jon would have been seen as his succesor by default.

[@TapestryMild]

The main reason (in the books not the show) that Jon is killed is because he wants to take a wildling army south to go fight a political war with the Boltons which he took an oath not to do.

[@rimskyrichard8651]

good chance Jon is still killed, Jon was essentially planning to attack the Bolton's and that's not very night's watch

[@Spadzz98]

I think in this timeline, it's actually quite likely that Howland Reed would either ask Robb to be the one to check in on Jon at the Wall, or that he might even disclose to him the truth about his parentage before he even tells Jon. Especially considering the fact that it would be in both Robb and the North's best interest to find some way to form an alliance with Daenerys, and doing so through Jon is the absolute best way to do that. One other thing is that by this time I'm almost 100% convinced that the lords of the Vale would join Robb, either by Bronze Yohn taking over as regent by replacing Lysa, or by all the other lords forming a regency council. This would allow Robb to either finally defeat Tywin in battle or take Casterly Rock, both of which would effectively destroy all of the Lannisters power and influence and leave them totally reliant on the Tyrells who are never interested in being on the losing side. Either way, just by the North and the Riverlands remaining intact, and by Robb never losing in the battlefield and being both respected and feared by enemies and allies alike, a whole lot of new options open for a much more powerful House Stark, which in this timeline controls more than half the continent.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

It pretty much becomes a stalemate. Robb doesn't have the numbers to march on the capital, and the North really can't be conquered. Eventually some kind of deal will have to be made if they want Jaimie back.

[@Gunleaver]

Stannis came North because they needed help, NOT to get their support because they were the only resources left. This is the whole point of his character development. This is why it is so important that Davos makes the point that he has to put saving the kingdom ahead of winning the crown.

[@Hektols]

Exactly, that could lead to an alliance between Stannis and Robb.

[@Gunleaver]

@@Hektols Yes, because of said character development, when he comes, he would be more open to making the necessary compromises to win Robb over. Also, his arrival would do a lot to assuage the feelings among the northmen, expressed in the Greatjon's speech that ends with him acclaiming Robb, that the rest of Westeros does not understand or care for them. This has some truth as we see when Tywin dismisses the wildling threat as a strictly Northern problem, but Stannis coming to the rescue of the Watch proves to a lot of people that he cares about more than his own power or advantages. In a situation where Robb survived, but was sufficiently weakened in power, that he himself was unable to come to the rescue, it would mean a lot to all concerned that Stannis did so.

[@katiecollins32]

Thank you for actually understanding the nuance of Theon's growing up in Winterfell! I see too many people in the fanbase just ignore that. Great video.

[@lionelmourilio]

Also In the books Robb broke his oath with the Freys only because he slept with Jeyne Westerling out of grief from the "death" of Bran and Rickon upd: I apologise for my English

[@janos5555]

Jeyne not Jaime

[@lionelmourilio]

@@janos5555 tnx

[@Themadness42]

Yeah that. There's no Red Wedding because there is no damage to any of the Stark allies and Bannerman that would have betrayed Robb there. I still don't see the North winning against Tyrell and Lannister together, maybe if Robb can get the Vale to move [Arya and Sweet Robin betrothal offer?]. Or if Stannis / Dorne offer effective opposition. Joff still gets murdered, Littlefinger is at play here still. Point is Theon had the option to keep the North in play and opted to turn cloak. There's a reason this haunts him later.

[@patrickyoung2479]

What if Viserys III was a kind and competent man?

[@tinahs8269]

I think the question should be what if Robb had listened to his mother and NOT sent Theon to Pyke. Catlyn stressed this point very much and explained what kind of man Balon Greyjoy was. She knew he'd take advantage of Theons knowledge, willingly or not. Balon may have taken the offer more seriously if it were delivered by more mature hands such as blackfish, rickard karstark(a mission at that moment might've been good for him) or greatjon. And sending Theon home could've been a cherry on top of the deal.

[@alxandermecedon226]

The Ironborn wanting to attack the north over the Westerlands will never make sense. Westerland has gold, fertile lands and revenge for the previous war.

[@irieite9666]

Balon tears a gold clasp off of Theon and throws it in the fire as he didn't loot it after an act of war. They are definitely weird but it seems like they fight to take slaves and also just for the sake of fighting rather than for gold etc.

[@Jaggaraz218]

It kinda makes sense, because if the Ironborn did sack lannisport, then if Robb loses the war, which he is likely to lose since he's outnumbered, the Lannisters would come and take extreme revenge on the Greyjoys afterwards. On the other hand the North doesn't really have that much loot in it, still the North was a much easier target that was incapable to strike back even if they somehow were to beat the Ironborn on land. Iron islands could've also conquerred and taken Bear Island if they wanted to.

[@nevik2506]

I always thought that odd too. Just look at the map. Winterfell is far from the sea, such a long trek for little reward. They're sailors yet marched way inland to fight as light infantry locked in a castle with the strong possibility of being cut off as opposed to raiding coastal areas.

[@sardonically-inclined7645]

I KNEW IT! My notifications aren't coming through for this channel any more. I've gone over it four times now to make sure I'm not losing it, and this video isn't there.

[@bandenboy]

do not forget that the redwedding isn't the only wedding planned to happen to the Frey's . If reunited with her Family , Arya as to marry a Frey too

[@davidjames4915]

Robb and Catelyn be like: "Wonderful to see you Arya! Now get cleaned up and go start speed dating Freys."

[@reesemccoy8246]

I love the work and have two fun suggestions: What if Theon was never taken away from his family after the failed rebellion? What if Cersei died giving birth to Joffrey?

[@arthurbriand2175]

What if he was taken to King's Landing and raised at the court of Robert ? Drinking and whoring with the OG.

[@AuroSya]

See, I actually think that with Daenerys, Robb would agree to bend the knee in exchange for help in destroying the Lannisters and avenging his father. By the time she shows up, the war may have dragged on for ages, and with winter right around the corner, resources to keep a war GOING would be a lot. A dragon and an army of unsullied soldiers would definitely make the war end much quicker and possibly save Robb the trouble of needing to take his army all the way south. And frankly, I don't see Robb wanting to be a king. Sure he takes up the title at the urging of his bannermen, but I don't think he's completely invested.

[@davidjames4915]

He also has an out for giving his kingship up: Umber (iirc) mentioned that the only reason they bent the knee was because the Targaryens had dragons, which Dany once again has.

[@Gunleaver]

Robb is not giving Theon an important mission if Theon returns to him. He might thank him and even reward him, but he's going to be seen as a man who betrayed his own family. He's going to get a serious side-eye from the rest of the nobles, and that's complicated by his status as a former hostage, which would militate that he be executed for his father's betrayal. Even if Robb is going to keep him alive, he is NOT going to be giving him positions of authority, because the other nobles would resent him. He is not going to get commands or offices. Robb is also really good at picking men for important jobs. The only people who let him down are Rodrik Cassel, who was appointed by his mother, for things other than the task that caused him to fail, and Edmure, whom he was more or less forced to trust because he was the Heir, then Lord, of Riverrun, and had a lot of power in his own right, as well as being his close blood kin. In the long run, appointing a non-family member to a position above Edmure hurts Robb politically. Theon is in no shape to be given a job so important by Robb, because he has no power of his own, and no long-standing service or pre-existing position of authority. Rodrik Cassel was the master-at-arms of Winterfell, and the primary job the castellan of Winterfell would have in the absence of the adult(ish) Starks would be to recruit and restore their guard force and protect the kids. Both were well within the skillset of his office. For Theon to get an important military command, when he was so recently a hostage, would just not fly.

[@propagandalf9511]

In the books it wasn't the Mountain Edmure beat, but Tywin. If we went by the book timeline and had this version of Theon, Lannisters would have lost.

[@matheusdemello2323]

What if Myrcella “Baratheon” married Robb Stark instead Joffrey & Sansa? What if Jamie Lannister was at the Tower Of Joy instead of Gerold Hightower? What if Rhaelle Baratheon, Robert, Stannis & Renly’s grandmother was still alive during Robert’s Rebellion?

[@LisaAnn777]

If Jamie was at the tower he probably would have been killed just like Gerold was. Don't see that situation changing much. But then the city most likely would have been blown up with wildfire so Old Town would probably become the new capital (again).

[@matheusdemello2323]

@@LisaAnn777 Do you genuinely think Gerold or Arthur wouldn’t stopped the Wildfire plot? Just because they wouldn’t kill the Mad King, doesn’t mean they would’ve allowed the Wildfire plot to happen, they could’ve killed/stop any attempts to ignite the Wildfires. Also your forgetting that wouldn’t Tywin wanted to go with Ned to the Tower of Joy if he knows that Jamie’s there? And would Jamie even participate in the fight if he’s guarding Lyanna, and knows about Jon Snow in this what if scenario, maybe keeping quiet about Jon Snow since Jamie always regretted never protecting Rhaegar’s children as he had nightmares about it.

[@LisaAnn777]

@@matheusdemello2323 all very good points.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

Jaimie was a hostage, so were Elia Martell and her children.

[@matheusdemello2323]

@@molasorrosalom4846 Yes, but I’m asking what if.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

Balon was going to attack the North anyway, the only thing Theon could do was send ravens, warning the North that the attack was going to happen.

[@ADreadBellow]

Theon and the Greyjoys attacking the North was one of my most disliked things George ever wrote. It just doesn’t make any sense even to the Iron Bourne.

[@steppen789]

I think it is understandable, still a dumb move tho. Balon is a man of pride, he needs that revenge just like Rickard Karstark with Jaime. But he should play his cards right, he should try to form an alliance with Tywin which is the loosing side, in fact Tywin is now in a position so desperate he needs every help he can get, he kept being defeated by Robb, got his new conscripts smashed behind Golden tooth, got Stannis on his back, Roose Bolton even stole Harrenhall from him, and most importantly Jaime is still a hostage, and we all know you can’t easily bargain when you’re the loosing side. With Balon’s help Tywin no longer has the urgent need to fight Robb at Golden tooth, the Greyjoys can land near Flints finger or Seagard to hit the Twins and take the bridge for themselves, cutting off Robb’s way back to the north, the Lannisport navy and the rest of the Greyjoys can strike Winterfell then

[@richardgermiller8444]

Thank you for making this video. This is all that I have thought about since 2014.

[@Dantheman-bw8hv]

His best option would've been to listen to his father and join his side at the war of the five kings. Not doing his own thing and taking over Winterfell or staying with Robb

[@LisaAnn777]

Then Robb would have won and then marched back up to the iron Islands and probably executed Theon along with his sister and father.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

​@@LisaAnn777Once again, what's your definition of Robb winning? He'd never be able to march on the capital, he didn't have the numbers. It would eventually be a alwar of attrition. Let's say Stannis wins the battle of Blackwater, Tommen is safely hidden away, and will now be dealing with a siege

[@LisaAnn777]

@@molasorrosalom4846 well stannis might have taken the capital, and Robb would actually hold the north. As far as what happens between Robb and stannis they will probably start another war against each other. Plus stannis might return Sansa if he gives up his King title in the north. I can see Ned wanting him to do that.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

​@@LisaAnn777Problem is, if he bends the knee to Stannis, he pissess off his bannermen. Heavy wears the crown.

[@Dantheman-bw8hv]

@@LisaAnn777 Robb would still die at the Red Wedding

[@tatalsaba]

With how the war would be going Stannis would seek out the only kingom that didn't commit to the war and who he's not hostile towards: The Vale, Lysa would no doubt turn him down for some Petyr prick, but the rest of the Vale would happily support him for the chance to get some of that glory they've heard the Nprth and Rivermen are getting. Since Robin is Robb's cousin though, it's unlikely that they'd join Stannis against the North and River alliance, but the Lannisters and Tyrells are fair game. As for the main family of Greyjoy's, they'd reave a little on the west coast of the North, before realising that there's fatter pickings in the Westerlands and the Reach, which are also lightly guarded at this point since the main forces of those kingdom's are literally on the other side of the continent in the Crownlands. Asha Greyjoy would likely also be married off to produce heirs or othervise be kept out of the battle to protect the Greyjoy line while Balon himself might get in on the figthing which would make him a bit harder for Euron to off. Speaking of Euron, he'd likely return home sooner, raiding the Stormlands (the army's practically gone, again easy pickings) but hold off against Stanis because he still got some ships. Stannis would still seek a loan from the Iron Bank who in theory could hire Euron's forces or the Golden Company, shipping them to Westeros and continue the fighting. Another direct attack on King's landing could happen since since both the westerlands army and Reach would have been forced to send troops to the Riverlands and home, since their homebases would be in peril. However Stannis would likely try to siege it first, and take out smaller forces with numbers before engaging the city itself. King's Landing would be ruled by Tywin, who'd quickly get rid of every uneccessary mouth, stock up on food from the surrounding region, pillaging it and destroying the popularity he got from saving the city previously, while preparing the city for another attack, much better than Tyrion. However, Oberyn, now cheated out of killing the mountain, would set his sights on Tywin and have him poisoned and/or otherwise weaken Tywin and the Lannister's position. There's plenty more, but that's it for me rn.

[@torinjones3221]

I don't think he would be allowed to leave the iron islands. They're already planning on attacking the north so he would probably just be taken prisoner or even just executed as a traitor.

[@Sofia-ws9fh]

What if in fire and blood Jaehaera had survived and was still married to Aegon lll

[@phil.moloney2980]

Here two what ifs I've always wondered, what if Ned brothers both Brandon and Benjen fathered bastards, be they boys or grils doesn't matter just think of the impact,Brandon before his death at the hands of the mad king, imagine Caths reaction, and Benjen either while he was lord of winterfell while Ned was off at war or maybe like Jon Benjen fell in love with a free folk women. Also when part 2 with Meakor Waters because aside form the Meagor series is my favourite and if he does claim the Cannibal think of the impact.

[@tatalsaba]

Given Benjen's advice to Jon in the books, I think he regretted not fathering any kids, bastard or trueborn, if he had, he'd likely have waited to take the Black, so Jon would liikely wait to take the black since his uncle wasn't there. If Benjen had trueborn chilren, they could be married off to other houses, like the Arryns (Robin), Boltons and Baratheon's (Stannis' daughter Shireen). Bastards of Brandon would be treated similar to Jon I think, which'd meant he woul be less of an outcast amongst the Starks.

[@arvintyree1109]

It's actually possible Ned's brother Brandon already has bastards. In the books he was known to be alot like Robert, fooling around with whichever girl he set his sights on. he was even sleeping with a minor northern lords daughter (forgot her name) and promised to marry her, but ended it when he was betrothed to Kat

[@tatalsaba]

@@arvintyree1109 Yeah GRRM did say Brandon might have bastards, but none are recognised in the books (Catelyn and Eddaard would have mentioned it in their chapters). The lady Brandon slept with was Barbrey Ryswell, now Lady Dustin, don't know if he promised to marry her though, doesn't seem like it from what I've read up on. Barbrey did say Brandon said he didn't want to marry Catelyn Tully, but that's a biased source.

[@magister343]

@@arvintyree1109 I think it is almost certain that Brandon has multiple bastards. I'd say there is about a 1-2% chance that Jon is a son of Brandon and Ashara Dayne instead of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is even possible that they secretly wed, but that Ned had to keep that secret out of fear that it would have completely ruined the alliance with the Riverlands.

[@davidjames4915]

If Brandon had bastard sons and assuming one of them survived all the wars the North fought, he'd actually make a suitable husband for Queen Sansa: a Stark male to continue the Stark line but not one who directly threatens her position.

[@DarkVeghetta]

The only thing that needs to change is Theon having a closer relationship with Ned (something similar to John Snow) and Ned's sense of honor & duty to rub off on Theon. If this happened, he'd likely have stayed loyal and would have been an even more interesting and complex character.

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

Please do What if Daenerys lived, and continued her conquest

[@daneoates8099]

Jon didn’t send word asking for help against the walkers, it was against Mance and the wildling army. Without Stannis helping in this timeline the free folk would wipe out the nights watch and swarm into the north raping and reaving, forcing Robb to entirely abandon his southern campaign, as unlike the greyjoys the free folk army is well and truly large enough to conquer a largely undefended north. This means Jamie Lannister is dragged with the northern army back to Winterfell to be prisoner there. I highly doubt that Robb would be able to muster his army to march south again once they were home in the north with winter coming and many of their homes destroyed by Wildlings, so Robb is then forced to take a more diplomatic position, ideally trading Jamie for Sansa and giving up on Robbs southward invasion in exchange for the Lannister ceding the north. Not sure how likely that negotiation is to be successful but that would have to be the play for Robb at that point. Whether that negotiation was successful or not, things would at least be a at a stalemate between north and south, and Stannis would wage war against the Lannister’s and ultimately be defeated, effectively ending the war of the 5 kings. Eventually Dany arrives with her army, and given Robb isn’t a fool, he would bend the knee and join forces with her to crush the Lannister army, then serving as warden of the north as his father did. With Jon being dead and the nights watch destroyed, there would be no knowledge of the threat of the Others, so no dragon flying north and dying to allow the night king to breach the wall. This hopefully at least slows down the night kings plans enough for Dany to sit the iron throne, leaving Westeros united when the long night finally comes.

[@josiahdavistv1216]

It dose not matter how nice you treat a slave a slave is still a slave

[@bundibird3213]

Robb also wouldn't sleep with Jeyne Westerling (he only did that because he was overcome with grief about the news his brothers had been killed), so would therefore still marry a Frey. It wouldn't be Edmure marrying Roslin; it would be Robb.

[@tomaibetter]

This is an interesting, but it did lead to thinking what would change if the Hound never left King's landing.

[@kraiden3]

Stannis and rob would join forces. Because their father died because he found out the truth and told everyone. The north and stannis and enough to take down the iron throne

[@Jaggaraz218]

Robb would still probably die, potentially in a red wedding, because Stannis does use blood magic and names the three kings to die and all of them do die.

[@eyosyastebeje9555]

i dont think his death has anythug to do with that he died because he lost the carstarks he didnt keep rickard carstark as a hostage that is why he died

[@sankarkrishnan407]

If this happens Daenerys will only have to fight against Lannisters in Kings landing. She may approve Robb as King of North and Riverlands.

[@aritrabanik4632]

What if Robb married Marcella?

[@DarkApostleNoek]

That early warning Theon could let the North push the Ironborn back, and then I guess those forces go to the Wall/Castle Black to help stop the Wildlings attack. WHAT IF.... Myrcella was engaged to Theon or Robin? That one of them was the choice Tyrion gave to Pycelle. Euron killed Balon earlier on? The first time Theon went to the Iron Islands.

[@hakuthetrapkage2212]

What if he killed Balon and trys to claim salt throne ? Being the only son true Yara had more pull . But theon being the son should at least gain a small following

[@ph89787]

What if the White Walkers were a reoccurring threat? As in the show up every few hundred to thousand years to try and invade Westeros?

[@colvamoon6962]

While I'm glad you stuck to the show, having some book addendum would've been nice. For instance, the Edmure thing. In the books, it wasn't the Mountain, but Tywin that Edmure beat back. And he didn't do it for glory, but because he saw his people being decimated, and wanted to help them.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

That's why I don't understand the hate he receives.

[@colvamoon6962]

​@molasorrosalom4846 mainly because I think the show runners just didn't like him. Another example is the burning boat scene. In the show, Blackfish takes the bow and callously tosses it back to Edmure when he makes the shot. In the books, Edmure offers the bow to Blackfish, since the tears in his eyes make it hard to shoot. After that, Blackfish comforts Edmure.

[@molasorrosalom4846]

​@@colvamoon6962Damn, forgot that, but it's been so long since I read the books.

[@jordanlane870]

What if the tragedy at summer hall never happened

[@ritish313]

Make a what if about "What if the dragon egg hidden in the crypt of Winterfell somehow hatched."

[@bandenboy]

i thin k that "dragon in the Crypt" is a metafore for Jon being resurrected after being killed. We are not there yet, but there is a change that in the Book Jon's body gets deported to Winterfell to be added to the crypt, where he will be "reborn" as the dragon

[@ritish313]

@@bandenboy didn't mushroom said Jacaerys Velaryon gave dragon egg to the Starks

[@fgtrhwu2]

What if the Vale joined the North? What if the Iron Isles joined the North? What if the wildlings joined the North? What if all 3 of them joined the North?

[@malikwitherspoon]

Need a what if Aemond claimed Vermithor instead of

[@dakotalange2858]

Be interesting if after the iron born raided the north he works with the manderlys to build ships and take the iron islands the the north help

[@darongates5948]

Wasn’t Theon also groomed to low-key take over the Iron Islands once Balon dies?

[@logansdomain16]

Robb dies regardless because stannis sacrificed to Melisandre to murder Joffrey, Renly and Robb.

[@simonpierre8283]

What if Rhaenrya went to rooks rest part 2. What if Robb joind Stannis What if Stannis won battle of blackwater What if Stannis won battle of ice. What if Vale joind Robb. What if Viserys invaded westeros with dohraki. What if greens won dance of dragons What if Aemond killed Dameond. What if Tywin survied what if joffrey survied what if Tommen survied. What if Edmure tully killed mountain. What if Balon invaded westerlands

[@Gunleaver]

The problem with this alt scenario, that Theon realizes how dumb his father's plan is, and that he has no place on Pyke, is that it is NOT a change. Theon quickly realizes that he is the fish out of water and that his family has scant regard for him. He also challenges Balon's plan to go it alone the moment he hears about it. The problem is, that just as many modern audience members can't step out of a modern mindset and value system when analyzing stories like this, feudal aristocrats equally can't step out of the value system with which THEY have been raised. Theon simply cannot conceive of any other path to success except through his inheritance of Pyke and the Iron Islands overlordship. To throw that away to become the retainer of another lord, even a king, is beyond understand for these people. That's all that being the brother, real or sworn, of a powerful man really is. For all the respect Kevan Lannister has as Tywin's right hand man, the moment he dies, and doesn't say exactly what Cersei wants to hear, she throws in his face that his actual, legal rank and status is nothing more than a knight who served her dead father and his blood ties to the leaders of House Lannister mean nothing if they don't reciprocate the loyalty. Going from the heir to Pyke to Robb's "brother" is throwing away all his prospects to live on the sufferance of another man. And while Robb might love Theon like a brother and want to be generous to him, the fact is, according to the aristocratic conventions of their society, Theon cannot ever be his brother in the ways Bran & Rickon are. Theon could perform spectacularly as Robb's righthand man, and win the war for him and at the end of the day, it will be Bran who is next in line for Winterfell after Robb's offspring, it will be Bran and Rickon who are entitled to preferential treatment from Robb, who can expect the high offices and power. Even Robb's wife's brothers will be expected to come before Theon in royal preference and proximity. And beyond his family, Robb will be expected to hand out the positions of wealth and power, the lordships and titles, to men who bring something to the table. A feudal king is not a fountain of wealth and largesse to grant at his will, even if that's how people see them, and how they encourage their followers to view them. Rather, kings grant lucrative or prestigious jobs to men who have the RESOURCES to carry them out. That's why Aegon Targaryen made four of the most powerful lords in Westeros his Wardens of the compass directions, instead of appointing his four best & most loyal captains. By giving the jobs to powerful men with wealth and armies of their own, he is coopting that wealth and those armies to the service of the realm, instead of having to allocate money and men to support Wardens he created from his retainers. He can get away with some acts of patronage, like making Orys Baratheon Lord of Storm's End and the Paramount Lord of the Stormlands, but even there, it was carried out by having Orys marry the daughter of the last man to hold those lands & castle. He gave another warrior in his service the title to Harrenhal, but he could not make him overlord of the Riverlands - for that office, he had to reward Lord Tully who rebelled against the Lord of Harrenhal on his behalf. He also could not make a River lord or one of his household the overlord of the Iron Islands, he needed to give that job to a local. All the men in Stannis' retinue who hope to be given that same title for their service, expect to do so by marrying Asha Greyjoy. What this all means is that Robb can't give Theon these sorts of rewards, because it would be a one-sided transaction that doesn't materially benefit Robb and weakens his reign. He can name a Tully Warden of the Southern Marches, because of the family's history in the Riverlands and the power and wealth they already have. He couldn't get very far naming some knight, no matter how qualified, because Robb would have to give him all the tools he needed to do the job. It's like Wyman Manderly's offer to coin money for Robb. He has the resources to do it, but in return, he is going to expect to be allowed to keep a portion of the coins he mints, instead of Robb having to take on all the expense himself. If Theon wants to be a powerful bannerman and valued ally of Robb's instead of his dependent, he needs his own power base. That's the political aspect of Theon's dilemma - he's useless to Robb without the Iron Islands, but he needs to betray Robb to have a hope of someday getting the Iron Islands (it's a parallel with Robb, who can't get his sisters back without the power and resources that come with his crown, but the obligations that come with that crown preclude him trading Jaime to get his sisters back).

[@Lucas-pg2lo]

Excellent comment, summarised some quite complex character motivation

[@Prince_of_Ruins]

Robb would have won the war if he listened to Theon's early advice.

[@eyosyastebeje9555]

what advice exactly which one i dont remember?

[@Prince_of_Ruins]

@eyosyastebeje9555 to execute the kingslayer & lay seige to either Casterly Rock or King's Landing if I remember correctly. Stannis was not yet ready to meet battle afterwards.

[@alphapython2475]

Not mine, saw suggested in a short on another channel What if Catelyn married Rhaegar? And this is from a fanfic, not mine What if Aemma lived but Alicent became pregnant with Viserys basterd?

[@dellavonta187]

Please finish daeron revenge

[@VersieKilgannon]

Keeping with this timeline and the ripple effect, do Myrcella and Trystane actually get married? Or is that aliance not in the cards at all now? 😅

[@Gunleaver]

This video leans entirely too much on book knowledge and then pivots to show nonsense where convenient. I absolutely agree with the consequences of Theon sending the letter. Robb being able to warn Rodrik Cassel of the ironborn invasion, and the lack of Theon's involvement, prevents the fall of Winterfell and allows a more coordinated response. Asha would lose Deepwood Motte, shortly after taking it, if she even succeeded. Knowing about the two targets for the Ironborn invasion would allow Rodrik, with Robb's authorization to rally the Mormonts and mountain clans to meet her forces by Deepwood Motte, and concentrate local forces to fight the ironborn at Moat Cailin and eventually rally the substantial forces still in the North to retake it if they fail to hold it from the Iron Fleet. Also correct is that the supposed deaths of Bran & Rickon impelled Catelyn to free Jaime. However, lost Jaime was not all that consequential to Robb. The Red Wedding plot was in the works before he was released and well before Tywin knew Jaime was on the loose. Roose & Walder DGAF about Jaime's survival and once they have Tywin's support, would go ahead with the plan without caring if the Tullys executed him in reprisal. And while Tywin might desperately want Jaime back to be his idealized heir, Robb's ongoing military opposition was blasting huge chunks out of the foundation of fear on which Tywin's power rests. Robb HAD to go, for Tywin to retain his power and self-image. Jaime did not HAVE to survive, that is just a nice bonus. Also, Rickard Karstark's defection and betrayal cost Robb a mere 300 cavalry, not a decisive portion of his army. Rickard was executed for actions he did not deny, after a hearing before his king. His son & heir might be pissed, but people will not see him having a valid basis for rebellion. Rickard being a significant loss is show nonsense (where Jaime killed one, not two, of his sons). If Jaime stayed locked up, Rickard would have found something else to pick a fight over. He was just looking for excuses to lash out and bring down Robb for not indulging his selfish whims. In reality, Winterfell remaining in the hands of Robb's men, and his brothers/heirs remaining alive, is what might thwart the Red Wedding. Part of why the Red Wedding works for Roose is that it creates a power vacuum he can occupy. With Robb's trusted retainers governing the North and his brother nominally ruling Winterfell in his absence (not to mention, Ramsey was, unknown to the Starks, in their dungeons, only freed by Theon taking the castle), there is no power vacuum. Robb dies, and they crown Bran. Then Robett Glover returns to White Harbor as a result of the prisoner exchange Robb set in motion before the Red Wedding, and he can tell everyone how Roose Bolton sent him into an ambush, and suddenly Bolton is an enemy of the crown, trapped in the Riverlands. No, Roose would never have gone through with it under the circumstances in the original story, if the Stark power base remained intact, and the Freys don't act without him.

[@cameroncondon35]

What Catelyn didn't capture Tyrion Lannister at the inn

[@choppadoc89]

What if little finger beat Brandon Stark and was able to take cat as his wife?

[@byro.]

what if daemon was hand of the king?

[@wandab3843]

What if Jamie married Liza Tully? What if Price Vicerys didn't piss off Khal Drogo and survived? What if Aerys didn't go mad?

[@Hektols]

If Jaime married Lysa Tully it would imply that he is Tywin's heir and not in the Kingsguard, the events of GOT probably wouldn't happen because Lysa wouldn't be disillusioned with her marriage with Jon Arryn so Littlefinger wouldn't have ascended into that power position that allowed him to manipulate her and the Realms. With Jaime at Casterly Rock there is also a good chance that Cersei would end giving Robert some legitimate children. If Viserys survived he probably would try to stop Dany to inmolate herself, he could end inmolated too or surviving the process alongside Dany, in this case he could end having an epiphany or becoming even more megalomaniac because he could be labelled as "Father of Dragons" and conclude that he must marry Dany. If Aerys didn't go mad the Realm would be stable and there is a good chance that Rhaegar wouldn't go to Harrenhall's Tournament to gather allies to depose his father, he wouldn't meet Lyanna and elope with her, Brandon lives and marries Catelyn, Robert marries Lyanna and Ned probably would serve Brandon at Winterfell.

[@dellavonta187]

He dies at red wedding is my guess 😊

[@AcbLynn132]

No Red Wedding becuz they would still have Jamie as a hostage

[@jordanadams1417]

Boring

[@magister343]

The red wedding would not happen because if Robb did not think his brothers had been killed by Theon he wouldn't have been so overcome by grief that he was able to be seduced by Jeyne Westerling, so he would have gone on to marry the Frey girl and cement that alliance as planned.

[@steppen789]

@@magister343I don’t think two teenagers fell in love is right to be called seduce

[@alejandronunez5110]

I don't know about anything el but he should as shit would have kept akl his limps

[@vodkavonblyat433]

Something that is missed is that stannis would have taken the red keep since tywinn could not move south to remove the siege as robb would still be in the riverland / westerland

[@cesarcastillo7872]

No, that was not missed. Tywin had already pulled out of the Riverlands in the original timeline. This is why Rob and his army easily took Harrenhal with no resistance. Because Tywin had already pulled most of his forces from the Riverlands and started marching south to aid Kings Landing.

[@julesmartin5072]

😊😊