What Is The Future Of Music In SMALL Venues?

[@MrTom-Songwriter-Composer]

You bring up interesting view points. I’m GenX and I’ve been writing and playing music since 1984(I’m under PRO: BMI, Inc and The MLC). I just started playing out again in small venues and it’s been going great as I’ve been releasing single acoustic driven songs since last year. I think, the difference may be in over all location… When I playing in Columbia, S.C (U.S.A.) it’s a large college city and this may be the point you overlook as well.l There is always going to be college age young adults going to small bars as well, so maybe not “right now” but when younger generations get into collage and the “party years’ they’ll see and perhaps participate in playing at small venues. - Mr.Tom

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

I'd agree with that. University towns generally have more people out in small venues. I did say at the start of the video that I feel fortunate to have lived in an era and 'location' where I could make a living. There are definitely areas and countries where I think you'd struggle far more. I'm just south of Bristol in the UK, which is a biggish city and one that has a lot students. The last video I posted was of footage in a small bar in the center that's quite popular with all age ranges. I just know that certain areas seem to have lost the interest in music by comparison to the same towns or even the same venues a few years ago. Thanks for the comment, pretty cool to be doing stuff with those labels, fair play to you. Original music is a hard road to go down. Ben

[@Instramark]

I am 68, from the states. I gave up playing live in 1998, after 25 years in the biz. I wish you folks could have Experienced the prime of live music that I did. Indescribably fun and a good bit profitable. Today? Forget about it, sorry to say.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

I have friends in the UK who are a comparable age to you, that say very similar things. I know it's often easy to look back with fond nostalgia and certainly it wasn't all perfect, but this is a thing that I feel we're losing. There are doubtless many reasons for it. At least we have recordings from that era that are easily accessible on a media platform that didn't exist back then. So I guess we have that going for us, ha!

[@camilletjhoa8099]

Hi Ben, another thing to mention is there is also less and less small stages available (at least here in Paris - France). Venues are often seen as a bad thing by the neighborhood, so even if younger generations are interested in live music, it's more and more difficult to find those venues. IMO youtube and social medias are probably the new "bar" in town where you can listen to music and having a good time (even if the experience is totally different from a live gig for sure). I love channels like KEXP and tiny desk concert for example and I'm pretty sure many people are watching live performances on youtube. Anyway I'm not sure about the disinterest in music in general, it's more a shifting in consumption but I agree with you on the fact that I don't forecast a great future for bar band musicians.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

That's interesting that music venues are seen as a bad thing where you are. Is that purely down to the noise? Does it matter what style of music gets played? Some styles are much heavier than others obviously. I agree that things are going to the online space and it's fun to watch channels and see great players playing, but when you think of famous players saying how often they gigged as a young player, you'd have to think that the next generation will be really missing out on a very valuable experience.

[@Tsoiugidali]

Good food for thought Ben. Thanks. I am on the USA West Coast- 73yo - still out playing the Blues in bars, etc. Started this journey when I was 15 and had to get someone back then to vouch for me that I was 21! :-) Great topic. Here we [musicians and club venues] are battling against the Music Industry and State regulators fining players who play "other musician's music" in public. Here locally precious few Clubs have ponyed up the $1000+ annual fee for a Music License. Fortunately I also had a day job too during all these years. I find myself agreeing with your presentation. Easy to judge by looks who belongs to which generation. Boomers still leading here but that crowd is shrinking fast. Alas the next gens are not doing the bar scene nearly as much. Probably doesn't help that pot is now legal, etc. One needs not go to a bar to get those good relaxed feelings. A couple of local bars are attempting to raise the funds for the Music License. The other option here is for each musician to purchase a license individually. I don't know who, if any, in the guitar slinger fraternity can afford this solution either. Agreed the venues, where ever, will continue to grow smaller in numbers being legislated out of existence. Funny but we were discussing this very topic at our last practice. We all agreed that the future is not going to be kind to small venue music. Peace and riffs to you and don't quit your day job.

[@flyonwall360]

Music license? California? I knew a lot of musicians in upstate NY, and I don't remember anyone having to purchase a music license. Nowadays, most bar playing musicians don't have $1k lying around. The music scene has changed immensely over the years.

[@flyonwall360]

Back in the late 70s, early 80s, I had a friend who was a full-time musician. His band grossed $3 million USD one year. Then, New York State changed the drinking age. The 18-20 crowd was gone, and so was the money. The live music scene has been on the decline for decades. Sadly, the younger generation is spoon-fed over processed garbage, and most have no clue how special live music is.

[@mindsetmusic999]

I agree with you Ben, I used to play live in bands and then solo for several years. It seems a different world now. I'm working on a rock metal project currently, however when it is produced as an album or just an ep, I don't know how to market it, sometimes seems a bit pointless doing it tbh

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Ah man, I feel for metal guys. I reckon there have to be more opportunities to play jazz than there are for metal bands these days. You know I'm not a heavy player and it's not my scene at all, but I used to like seeing a live band slaying some of that stuff on occasion. There used to be a few little places around town that would host something like that, but I don't see that style advertised now. I bet it could feel like a slog, but original music is always a labour of love, you're doing it because you have to, not for an end result I guess.

[@jefflundgren762]

I agree, it was hard before...Impossible now...I play only 2x month..and have to do it solo to make any money at all... Most places that used to have live music, just play music from their collections..no more musicuans...😢

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Man, the number of venues I used to play that have stopped having music in the last few years is terrifying. Playing solo to tracks (under a different name) is the only way I can earn enough. I do some other things, but the bulk of the earning comes from that. I managed 140 gigs this year, but that really only just about covers your living costs if you have reasonably low outgoings. The question for me is whether I can sustain doing this.

[@timothy5974]

Great topic Ben, I’m 56 , so I guess that makes me Generation X. I agree, the pedal and gear content is fizzing out for me. I would like to concentrate on my playing and learning my favorite songs. I never had a daytime job with weekends off, I worked nights in my career for 30 years and that schedule was never conducive to being in a band. Younger generation music is a bit out of my style. What ever your channel becomes I will always be here for your tasty intro’s. Merry Christmas to you and see you next year. Thanx.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Am I allowed to identify as Gen X?! My bird is, so... Yes, having a day job that works with music is a must if you want to gig with a band. I know great players that end up getting shift work and they just disappear. If your life dictates that though, you have to do it I guess. I've been exceptionally lucky up to this point. Current chart music is certainly not my bag. It's funny though, when I look back at things I thought were awful at the time, some of them seem not so bad now. Does that mean current material is even worse by comparison, or that I go out of my way to dislike whatever is current?! Hmmm... Glad you like the concept of varying the channel a bit. I'll still be covering some gear, as it can be fun but I want to get away from being a bit of a walking advert. Doesn't sit right with my more minimalist philosophy. Philosophy? Do I have one of those?! Anyway, thanks for you message and compliment about the jams, always appreciated. Have a good Christmas!

[@thesongwritersjourney]

Hi Ben I enjoyed watching this video.....I am kinda pedaled out personally, not by you, but by the saturation in KZbin you speak of. I am not a player, but working at professional songwriting. I think the live music scene will remain, but maybe it takes a different form....perhaps away from bars/pubs to a more intimate form like a speak-easy type or something like that. There was a time when vinyl was done because CDs were better....well, vinyl is back....but fair to say not like it was. Music didn't go away, just the format that conveyed it. Maybe the bar scene is going through the same transition now.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

You could be right. I think there will always be a taste for it in some form, certainly musicians are going to want to go and watch other musicians! I do think it's going to be incredibly difficult to make a living without some form of circuit for it. Being a songwriter must be even more difficult. How do you monetise that now?! $0.003 per stream isn't it? I'm not a writer myself, but it's got to be a hard slog to make that work.

[@thesongwritersjourney]

@@BenFletcherGuitar Making it work....yeah, there is that annoyance. I am figuring that out as I go. There has to be more than just "songwriter" in the toolbox - also needs to be "producer" or "artist" and ability to catch other [income] streams. I hope to capture that over on my channel as I go. Its a work and life in progress. I also want to open my own venue of sorts when I get to Nashville. Again, not sure how that will work, but it doesn't seem to be easy street for sure...

[@StorminNorman64]

Hi Ben, great topic and great idea too. I'm 59 and the last year of the Boomers and I'd say there is a huge change in the bar band scene. A bar band only a few years ago, was a band of 3, 4, or 5 and even more musicians. Then bars started to get hit with costs and the bands got paid the same and even less rather than keeping up with inflation. Then the space for the performance was reduced to give more space to paying customers, so the drummers became Cajun players. Now the pay rate is near fixed low to encourage only solo or duo artists to perform. Bands are now at best doing festivals earning only break even at best and as you mentioned and still a good earner, weddings, for now anyway. I only see it getting worse, especially as many guitarists now use backing tracks. The Answer? I don't have it! I do agree that when I speak to my nieces and nephews about bands they seem totally unfussed and nonchalant. Like you say not fans of anyone or any genre. Why? How has this happened? I don't know!

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Seems like a very similar experience we're all having. The thing you mentioned about fixing at lower rates of pay is 100% happening. Last week a venue we were booked to play at, messaged to say they now had a spending cap from the management, that was basically at a solo performer rate. I happen to be a solo tracks guitarist (I know you mentioned about that, but it's really the only way I can make a living. Also worth noting that my parents gigged to tracks or drum machines since the early 80's and bands have still been popular) so I ended up taking the gig myself and the guys in the band won't end up playing that night. I should mention they both work full time and in fact the drummer arranged it for me, so I'll be happy to pay him commission like an agent. The wedding scene is one of the last places you could make a living as a player who doesn't sing, I reckon. The festival thing is really just for the fun of doing it, unless you're someone at the top of the bill. They look like cool gigs, but I turn them down whenever they get offered because I can't afford to play for beer and exposure on a Saturday night in the middle of the summer! Shame, because the gigs can be more fun than the ones I actually play. I guess that's why mine pay though, ha! Also, like you, I don't have the answers! It's part of the reason I wanted to start some conversations like these. Thanks for the comment. Ben

[@StorminNorman64]

@@BenFletcherGuitar unless the artist is doing instrumentals, which there is a small niche for in restaurants, then a solo guitarist today, I feel, has got to be able to sing or at least carry a tune. You are quite correct in that Electronic Pop duos & soloists have existed since the 80s but they aren't the threat to live pub bands. In my opinion it is a combination of both the pubs themselves and the attitude of today's young audience.

[@TheMusicfan1996]

Great video Ben 🙌🏻 I like the idea of this video.. keep up these types of conversations dude 👊🏻 I totally agree. I see it in younger students all the time.. asking them “so what’s your favourite band/s” and at the age of like 12 to 13.. most kids don’t know or have any idea. When I was 12 I could have l quoted like a tone of mine. But they could quote their favourite games or Tik Tok influencers… Scary times.. I’ve personally noticed (since covid) venues getting more sensitive to sound in general and venues/clients not being happy with volume. Before covid 99% of my gigs involved turning up with an amp/pedal board.. now 80-90% of them involve a digital modeller and in ears. I think due to the progression in technology and venues wanting to keep everything down.. bands are now using D.I solutions a heck of a lot more. I don’t personally prefer it from a playing point of view but it makes functional sense. So is Amps on gigs in general dying? I have a prediction that in the next 5-10 years I won’t be using amps on gigs anymore. As more bands will upgrade to in ear monitoring racks and want me to go D.I due to every venue being use to having bands/acts that go D.I.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Glad you liked the concept of these videos, I'm hoping they do ok and I can be slightly less gear-centric here on the channel. The death of loud is another topic I'd like to cover at some point and your experience is shared by other players I know. I find it slightly ironic that we've gone from everyone carrying their own backline and playing at the volume of the kit, to pub bands bringing in 5k rigs and saying it's quieter if we do it this way! I think guitarists will get the biggest 'I told you it wasn't my fault' moment in history. Let's hit an empty bucket with a wooden stick and put a mic on it, because I can't tell you the number of pub gigs I've been to where you couldn't hear the snare drum...said nobody! Anyone you know gigging a digital drum kit?!

[@TheMusicfan1996]

@@BenFletcherGuitar I was actually gigging with a digital drum kit drummer the other day 🤣🤣🤣 There's quite a few gigs I do where drum screens are used too. Such a sad time for this to happen.. It's such a shame.. I totally understand theres gig where it's more appropriate.. Gigs where it's ok to.. I think all musicians should be able to use actual rigs..

[@briannacery9939]

Perhaps the musicians themselves will maintain the venues for live performances!❤

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Maybe! I can see things like halls being booked out for one off ticketed events or jams. That's something I've even considered because we have a lot of great players in my area and it's nice to get together and jam whatever you want. There's a local jam that takes place in a church run by a rocking vicar, ha! I also know quite a few players who have taken on pubs over the years, however you're always going to be bound by what type of audience you have in your area. Opening something like a specific blues or jazz bar simply wouldn't fly in my hometown, because it's an indie rock, strummy pop kind of town and you're never going to sell them anything else. However, I'd agree that we might see more of this type of thing springing up. You're never going to make a living from bar band and solo work this way though, as there simply wouldn't be a big enough circuit and that's a pity.

[@StorminNorman64]

I think you could be onto something here. The band I'm in are planning something along these lines this summer. We just sold out a gig which is on Friday the 23rd Feb. We were to get 100% of the door takings and looking at are fan base we decided to make it seating and not just standing so we did reduce the number of tickets available. The bar then said they wanted 30% of the door! We said 'No!'. Three hours of people sitting and drinking, as most are going to be boomers or Generation X, will be not only a good earner for them, but the best night they'll have had this year so far! It's ridiculous that venues, promoters and bands are fighting amongst themselves! But I do agree with briannacery9939 that the bands should look at running the whole event themselves, either alongside bars willing to take the bar sales to cover their staff and profit plus the rental of the room or simply BYO in any suitable venue. It's getting tough out there!

[@TheAshkgray]

Alas Ben, from my own experiences, I think the British pub scene for live bands is dead, for a number of reasons. It really doesn't help when venues insist on having multiple TVs on while bands are playing, which is a huge distraction. ironically, I've actually found myself watch them during songs (e.g.The Anchor, Gloucester Road). The punters who are there and interested seem to think that bands are just glorified juke boxes, expecting you to be able to play anything they wish / demand, and get seriously pissed off if / when you decline to do so, often assuming that the song in question is beyond your musical abilities. And don't even get me started on bands paying doormen fees, stages that are fit probably only for DJs, or even (having brought your own PA) that they insist that you must use the in-house one, which is capped on dB levels. Bitter and twisted? Well, perhaps not quite, but I'm so glad that I lived in an era when you could earn a living fromlive work, and pubs welcomed you, knowing they's get a crowd in. Remember residencies? As you say, genres in music have pretty much gone, so unless you're a tribute band, punters don't know what they're going to get. When I was a callow youth, those were the very factors that would entice me to go to see a live band. Sad, but true, I think.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Man, your description is so close to my own experience and view of it! Hardly surprising given you're in the same area of the UK and a creative player. Yes to the TV's! I've done tracks gigs where I zone out, nobody is listening (or even in the room) and I've started watching the TV. More than one occasion I've found myself forgetting which verse I'm even on and how long the track has left to run! Is there a solo, or did I just do that bit?! Haha! The human jukebox thing has gotten worse. I think on demand media has brought that about. Sure that attitude has always existed but I think because people get what they want, whenever they want it, it's created a certain mindset. (Just guess work there.) Yes, the 'bet you can't play' thing. I just say no, Ed Sheeran is beyond my capability. The way he plays chords, that's 6 notes at a time, I can only do one...but that's why he's famous see. What's interesting is that people don't ask for modern material. I played Nailsea again on the weekend, it was awful actually, but that's a side note, the requests were Abba and the Spice Girls! Seriously! Oh and of course...get it going! It wasn't like we weren't already playing party pop songs! I've always enjoyed bands that can improvise around a theme or at least develop it. The thing with that is, you have to play material that would allow you to do it. Not every song can stand being manipulated in that way. It ceases to be the same song. So what you're saying is...you don't miss it?!

[@TheAshkgray]

@@BenFletcherGuitar Of course I miss it, dearly, but the concept is no longer viable in my view, due to major changes in atitude from most local venues and punters. I certainly don't miss what I left - after 45 years of playing live regularly, it quite upset me, actually. On a good week, I could earn as much as £300 personally, but before those days, it was never about the money, all about the support and reaction. I could live on a week from the feeling of a great gig. I massively miss what I had years ago, when such attitudes were different, punters genuinely wanted to see bands (as opposed to simply being there when bands were on) , and some enthusiasm was present. Sadly, I think it's gone, Ben.

[@Tsoiugidali]

Sounds like my part of the USA too.

[@kscottgray]

I hope you are not right. I do notice in my experience this year playing out in pubs that the younger audiences respond favorably to your playing when you roam with your wireless. I do feel that they do not know the songs but respect the performance. Performing well will always be well received.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Absolutely, I can imagine if you sell it well and you're a good performer then people will respond. There have to be people in the venues for this though. You're not going to go running around a pub with a wireless mic if there are 5 people in the room all playing on their phones, ha! I would say a good portion of my gigs this year have been to fewer than 20 people. Sadly it's not so much about reception from the audience, more of keeping enough venues open to give you that audience to perform to.

[@lukegriffiths5855]

Interesting question. I dont think i would have liked to live at a time that the only music you could hear was live but recording technology has a lot to answer for.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

Yeh, My Dad told me about how things got learnt back in the 50's when he started playing piano. Hearing something on a radio or someone playing something live and then you getting home and trying to remember what it was you'd heard! Obviously this is at a time where you COULD record and distribute music. You can certainly see why there'd be a lot of variation in musical styles! I'm with you, we have it so good with access to music now, but it'd be great to hold on to places to get that live experience too if we can.

[@HexagonTL]

Visited China a few times this year. the live bands play every night 6 days a week. 80s rock is new to the Chinese, and they’ve taken a liking. No shortage of venues looking for someone to play acoustic solo or full live bands. I’m mainly stationed in Vancouver, Canada. It’s pretty sad. Not a lot of people going for live music. Not a lot of venues want to put down 20k for a drum set and PA system. Perhaps it’s a lack of musicians interested in performing. Perhaps it’s a lack of venues offering opportunities. Perhaps inflation keeps people out of bars.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

That's interesting about the far east. I have heard similar from other areas over there too. I would imagine they'll work very long hours for very low money, the Filipino bands certainly used to in the middle east hotels. That's funny you say about venues in Canada providing backline. Here in the UK that's anomalous. I have to bring the PA to every gig as well as any gear I might need for guitar/bass. I think maybe some venues in cities do provide some gear, because it's impossible to park. I think they assume people will likely just bring some pedals or breakables if you're a drummer and travel by taxi/train. Inflation is a huge deal. I mean music is hardly a necessary industry, it's something that happens when times are good and people wanna have some fun, so obviously the first thing to go when times get tough. As you say, there's definitely more than one thing affecting the situation. Thanks for the comment, Ben.

[@graemero5532]

I am Gen X, I think 🤔 I like the idea of these topic discussions Ben, but as you know I have no experience of playing live. I read the other comments and your replies to them. A shame, but It does not make positive reading. I think a good topic for one of these would be writing processes.

[@BenFletcherGuitar]

The generations are bit blurry around the edges aren't they? I'm glad you like the concept of these videos. It'll break it up a bit I feel. I'm also going to be putting some actual music (I know it's a shocker) on the channel in this next year. Some live things and also some recordings/performances. Thanks for the suggestion on the topic. I'll see if I can take a part of the process and word it in to a question. I don't want to come across as all knowing and for sure I know bugger all about songwriting! Ha! These things are me asking the audience, but starting the conversation off with one guy's perspective.