What Joker 2 is REALLY About (SPOILERS)

[@RH1812]

I enjoyed both Joker and Folie. Rather than just remake Joker bigger with more explosions they went in a new way, with occasional brutal violence. Yes the sequel could have done with a bit of cutting, but then so did The Batman. Its ending was, for me, the only way it could have.

[@wingflanagan]

I just saw _Joker: Folie à Deux_ last night. I get why many people hate it, but the joke's on them (pun intended): THEY are the Joker's followers in the film. They read only the shallowest aspect of the first film and embraced it, completely oblivious to its deeper meanings. All they saw was the Joker; their fantasy villain coming to life from the pages of their beloved comic books. They didn't see Arthur. A quick survey of the KZbin, anti-work commentariat shows that - like those followers in the film - they reject Arthur and want to kill him. The film is probably going to bomb, and they will dance on its grave, not comprehending that it was a devastating critique of them all along. To be fair, I did see one video that seemed to grasp this. Its conclusion was that the second film is a contradiction, that it doesn't understand its audience and hates it. But what the maker didn't get is that both films understood their audience perfectly - it's THEY who don't get it. It's a brilliant film, not without its faults, but beautifully made. You know, I watch these creators, the ones who bemoan the state of _Star Wars_ and Marvel, and I agree with them a good deal of the time. LucasFIlm and Marvel have been cranking out garbage of late - mostly because of plain old terrible writing, but also because they treat these properties like vehicles for social propoganda. But the _Joker_ films are different. They're not polemics (for either the Left or the Right). Rather, they are a masterful critique of our age, of the hollow posturing and hyperbolic rhetoric of both sides in the American culture wars. The haters would do well to shut up and listen, for once.

[@Xisk77]

The box office doesn't lie.

[@RickHonks1]

YES!! YES!! YES!! I thought I was the only one who got and understood these movies!! Bravo good sir!! It's not 'Arthur Fleck' on trial in the 2nd movie, it's the 1st movie itself! I'm willing to bet Todd Phillips is the first filmmaker ever to make a movie that grossed over 1 billion dollars and actually be pissed off about it, because it actually proved him right and made all that money for all the wrong reasons. Also, Phillips already knew how this movie would be received, as that too was predicted in the movie. Rejected by the 'fans', represented by Lee (who also speaks for all the 'Joker' followers in the movie) and killed by 'toxic fandom', represented by the inmate with Arthur at the end of the film. The parting shot is basically telling those 'fans', "I tried to say something to you twice, you didn't understand and you reacted just as predicted. Now f**k off and go watch Heath Ledger!" These two movies are absolute masterpieces!!

[@mandyclark6602]

Well said! Thank goodness, someone who actually has the ability to understand serious and intelligent critical thinking and the ability to recognise nuance and subtlety - actually GETS it.....there is so much DAMN shallowness out there. Don’t drink the Koolaide......don’t be a follower. Please - start taking responsibility for your own actions and the very real consequences. This comment has redeemed my faith in the intelligence of the audience....well the critical thinking audience! I salute you! The Koolaide followers ARE Harley Quinn - rejecting the movie/ Arthur due to their own shallowness and inability to take responsibility for being a real human with real feelings. This is not cookie cutter Superhero movie, it’s a deep exploration of human suffering and the fight for authenticity

[@mateuszolejniczak645]

Stop drinking pal.

[@RickHonks1]

@@mandyclark6602 Here's something I think you'll really appreciate: 'Arthur Fleck' -- 'Fleck sounds a lot like 'flick'. 'Art' is short for 'Arthur'....'Art flick'. 🤫😀 Arthur Fleck/'Art Flick' is masquerading as a comic book character/movie for the purpose of getting attention. 🤨

[@horizon92lee]

I feel imposter syndrome is a big undertone for Arthur, coming to terms with the persona of Joker

[@crater044]

This film is shining a spotlight on who actually paid attention to the first movie and who didnt. Its also fascinating that they are reacting exactly the way Todd Phillips had the Joker supporters act in the film. It really does show that people legitimately did not get the first film and damn sure dont get this one. It isnt as good as the first movie but this film is fucking with a lot of dumbass people that im just enjoying the chaos of it all.

[@deangagatr3886]

Cult Classic

[@zeehutt7876]

I thought the first one was definitely better. But people overlook the deeper theme of you reap what you sow. As the phrase goes: when fighting monsters do not become a monster.

[@TrenchMan93]

Im still gonna wait to see it on streaming. I appreciate your points and I respect the movie telling Uber fans to f themselves, but I felt it could’ve been done better. I like the end idea that Arthur’s death inspired a more dangerous Joker. One who enjoys the chaos and misery…because it’s funny. Not like Arthur’s which was out of pain and retribution.

[@rodriguez3298]

Excellent, poignant and summed up the movie well. While many have written it off, perhaps down the line people can reappraise it and realize how much this film has to say about human nature.

[@ThorogoodFilms]

Ah thank you!

[@mateuszolejniczak645]

,,This is how it happened , this is how the Joker died.''

[@missingpiece2071]

excellent, well done

[@nowhere529]

No contrarian navel gazing is going to save this unwanted sequel.

[@TheBeetleOwl]

Not true, he really was the son of Thomas Wayne. The photo of Penny has a flirty letter written by him saying I love your smile and signed by Wayne. So Thomas really was flirting or even fucking with her and use some problems to use his power to make her look bad

[@ThorogoodFilms]

Interesting, it seems there's some debate about this! Your interpretation does seem to fit with a lot of the evidence. I like how much ambiguity there is in the first film

[@zietgiestnewspeak6143]

Didn't Arthur's mother adopt Arthur? I mean isn't that what his file showed? The mother's boyfriend beat him and she allowed it at the time, no?

[@zietgiestnewspeak6143]

Todd framed joker fans perfectly, act like the joker or f*ck off! Not allowed any depth for this character.

[@AndyAce83]

I am suprised that a possible redemption isnt mentioned. He confesses his sins, regrets them, and as he is dying sings a christian song. He gives a sort of prayer. To me, if no other movies are made, I think it could imply a salvation at the end.

[@ThorogoodFilms]

Oh wow that's an amazing point which I totally should have mentioned! Not sure if that's what Todd Phillips was intending to convey, as he loves the ambiguity and I've heard quite a few people involved say that the ending is about the making of a new Joker. But I think this is really interesting point. I might do a follow up video. Thanks for your comment!

[@gusztavkosa4065]

people don't mention it because they didn't get it in the first place, I mention this under another video, and I got replies like "what are you on about" it's like they only watched every other minute of the movie

[@damianstarks3338]

Great in depth analysis of this Joker sequel perfect comparisons at 5:20 6:50 and 7:28 perfect person to tell this story

[@user-ux3gh3nt8i]

This could be one of the greatest sequels ever made

[@jonfreeman9682]

Without a doubt the greatest complete with an incredible musical rendition. Looks like Oscar is knocking on the door.

[@SembraviFrankSinatraierisera]

No shit

[@Xisk77]

What are you smoking? Look at the box office...

[@alexandermurphy4902]

Genuinely loved the film

[@standardperson3189]

@@Xisk77box office doesn’t define greatness

[@JamieRobles1]

No . . . I would agree with you on the meaning if Todd was actually interested in snapping the super fans out of their delusion, but he is only interested in making fun of them. There would be more of a divide than just a few people getting it and the rest hating it (it's ranking in the low 30s right now on the review sites.) One KZbin critic dug up an interview of Phillips for The Joker and he only made a Joker film because the studio wanted a Joker film and he wanted to make a movie about someone like Arthur Fleck, but couldn't sell it because Hollywood doesn't like to take chances on something that might not work at all. There was a way to do this that would have fleshed it out for people who needed to be sold on the argument that they shouldn't hero worship someone who isn't a hero. Fleck or Joker . . . both are and will always be villians. . . . and they wanted to be villians. Ok . . . BUT Phillips wrote the script for Joker in the traditional sense, Deux was put together in pieces. They would (Phoenix and Phillips) would write what they were going to shoot for the next few scenes, they would shoot it, and then they would work on the next part of the script- rinse, repeat. I'm sure your dive of the movie was intentional because you picked it up, but if you're going to let down an audience, be careful how you do it and what you're hoping for- you just might get it. I was okay with The Joker, and maybe if I watch Deux a couple of more times, maybe I'll be ok with it too. Right now, as someone who likes to write, I would never intentionally write an 'f*#% you' story for people just 'cause you know- 'f*#% you' (let's not deny it- that's how a lot of moviegoers felt like when watching this sequel.) I simply just wouldn't write a sequel to begin with.

[@Xisk77]

Did you get paid for this review?

[@ThorogoodFilms]

Nope, views my own haha! I don't tend to weigh in on whether the films are good/bad, I just get into what I think are the deeper themes. I think many of the critiques of this new movie are very valid, but I did find it to be a thought provoking piece

[@muleboy3537]

I mean, yes? The title made me think there was going to be some further read than the text of the film. Yes, this what the film is about. Yep. You spelled it out, but it’s like spelling out the word CAT. You got it, chief. That is the point of the film 👍

[@CarlBeep]

I see both sides of the coin with J2. Some of the scenes were just plain annoying and unnecessary. I don't think there should have been as many musical elements in it. But if you can get past that, it's where a logical sequel would end. I found it very depressing at times (in a good way). Don't think Harvey Dent needed to be in it tbh (unless he ends up having son called Harvey Dent Jr later on). The ending is the fly in the ointment. If we are led to believe that Fleck's killer is Heath Ledger's Joker, then it doesn't explain how he's barely aged in the Dark Knight, baring in mind J2 took place in the early-mid 1980's. Either way though, it clearly has created a division, with far more people hating it than liking it. I don't like musical films (apart from Wizzard of Oz). So a fair few scenes were cringeworthy for me. JP was again the stand out performance but Gaga did OK too. J1 was a better film overall. J2 felt like an unnecessary tragic gamble.

[@Zdiot]

If this is what they are going for Batman no kill rule can mean more for once. I do only have one problem with this movie which I wish it did more like the first movie show don't tell. Still movie is great and makes Batman this Jesus like figure who is willing to save people from darkness no matter how hopeless it is

[@user-ux3gh3nt8i]

Describing the world is a thing even a child can do but to understand why the city is as described that’s a start of an intellect and a thinker I suggest and recommend you start on that journey

[@JohnnysaidWhat]

this sequel is what happens when you get easy money and backing to make a sequel 😂. It was garbage.

[@truthseeker2055]

I appreciate your attempt at polishing a turd, but in the end it is still a turd...it really doesn't matter if a movie has some deeper meaning if it doesn’t entertain the audience....

[@crater044]

Considering that most of the audience are just stupid and want the same popcorn flick garbage all the time, this isn't really a great point you're making. There have always been films that have been made to challenge audiences and get them to think instead of solely just being there to entertain. Some of the greatest movies ever made have done this. Its honestly not surprising that people don't like this film because they honestly don't fucking get it and they didn't get the first film.......audiences are just pissed because they didn't understand either movie to begin with.

[@nucygnet5881]

Maybe that's the point lol. You just proved the movie right. You and everyone that are hating on it are the Harleys to the movie's Joker.

[@christiansamuelstadeus]

you gotta be kidding me, this Movie was utterly insulting...

[@crater044]

Insulting to who? A bunch of fanboys and girls who didn't get the Joker/Harley slaughterfest that they wanted?

[@TatianaTeaTV]

Please do “Strange Darling” and “The Wasp”!!! I’d love to hear your takes on those!!

[@ThorogoodFilms]

Ooh good suggestions, thanks!

[@Acme633]

Any MOVIE is already a "blending of fantasy and reality" and you don't need a musical to do that, and here is where you are probably seeing something which is not there. Perhaps the sequel is a musical simply because Lady Gaga is there. Quite a silly sequel, by the way.

[@crater044]

This comment is hilariously stupid and completely missed the point. Youre equating it to OUR reality when he is talking about the film's reality vs Arthur's fantasies. If Arthur's fantasies are that of a musical, then it makes sense that they be musicals. This was done even in the first film so how is he reaching at something that wasn't there when he is literally giving you examples showing that it was there?

[@DanielGenis5000]

This movie was boring garbage

[@rubbygm]

For superhero/villain fans it is, they just llike trashy action and feel different when they are sooo basic ,a bunch of incels wanting EdGy ThInGs

[@ScienceDash]

The movie was admittedly bad because Todd Phillips didn't want to make it.

[@crater044]

​@@ScienceDashHe didn't want to make the film that audiences wanted him to make. That's the difference. So he made the film he wanted. It's audiences who are pissed off because they didn't get what they imagined they were getting