What's Wrong With Nonduality?

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[@bonnieroberts1799]

"I don't know" seems like a sensible response.

[@MrResearcher122]

It strikes me as an odd position to go back to a bronze age Aryan people who wrote the Upanishads to understand our life. Even Adi Shankara who died at 32 was still in mix of trying to figure it all out. He was debated, denounced, and his tradition was just that, namely his tradition. But to tell people to stop counting breaths, to follow your direct path, to use the teachings of a man who lived in South India in the 1950s, who you never met, seems hubristic. Ramana Maharishi seemed less dogmatic about his teachings than those using his name for paid retreats.

[@prajnabala]

I agree with Robert that many of those who came out of Tony Parson's "lineage" are merely repeating what they have learned. That is why when I first came upon Tony and then discovered (thanks to KZbin algorithms) all the others using Tony's exact jargon, I called them "Tony clones". Some of those clones have begin to come into their own and are dropping most of the jargon and expressing themselves uniquely. I agree with what UG Krishnamurti said, that if "this kind of thing" happens to you, what comes out of you will not be like anyone else -- it will be totally unique. I find that unique expression is with Robert and it is refreshing.

[@dexx44]

"Tony clones" ... you just sound like an frustrated seeker who wants to feel better about herself. That's fine, it won't help you. Andreas Müller, Jim Newman, Naho Owada, Neil Denham... All these persons shares the same message in a completely unique way. Sure they use some similar words, nothing wrong with that. Some word's point more directly to "what is" than others. Tony's language is the language of this century. In another century someone said "the kingdom of heaven is already amongst you "... doesn't matter. Words doesn't matter, it has nothing to do with words. This has nothing to do with learning something. This can't be understood. You can have a clear conceptual understanding of what is being shared ... it's useless. You will never get this. There is no you to get anything.

[@pretheeshgpresannan4172]

Most of those clowns just want to "showoff" how pretty, special, enviable, or even sexy they are (without having anything useful to showoff) to those unfortunate folks who come to listen to their parroting. Some of them had some sort of shift but then thought has trapped them--mostly Pastor Tony's system of thought.

[@SarahDale111]

@@dexx44 Oh...I know this game! How about, "And you sound like a know-it-all who read into a comment something that wasn't there, just to have something to be judgmental and blah blah blah about." I thought Tony clones had a nice ring to it, but I'm a sucker for assonance. 😜

[@AlexUnder_BR]

I'm empathetic to your felling, specially about Andreas Muller, he copy even the voice tones of Tony. But then we should remember the obvious, if something is true, ofcourse it could, would, should AND WILL be repeated along the centuries, because this is the nature of something that is at least closer to truth, right? Even science knows this thousands of years ago, if there is such thing as truth, it just must be PERMANENT and UNIVERSAL. Thats the reason that E=MC², the Oneness and many other fragments of truth/reality are so hard to prove FALSE. Because, probably they are true. And therefore it got repetitive without choice. Tony Parson's message is quite new in a sense, therefore we might feel just copies around him now, but I bet this was the case with tradicional non duality too back in the days,.. sometimes we still see some examples of that TODAY! lol Is quite dificult to be original with a certain tradition, and is quite dificult to BUILD a new one (like Tony is tryind to do) without been painfully repetitive, cause yes, at the end of the day, the relation master/disciple is just another form of business too, ofc! If a man is burning time at talking about something he must find a way to get paid for it or he'll die, right?

[@SarahDale111]

@@AlexUnder_BR He'll only die if he takes himself to be a mortal man. 😜 It seems to me, if any of these teachers/gurus had actually realized Christ consciousness, they wouldn't be on youtube blathering on about whatever it is they blather on about. They certainly wouldn't make a business of it if they understood there is no such thing as lack. It seems they are still caught up in the world mind...the mind of man. If only God is, then who do they think they are they talking to? I'm talking to myself, and it feels a bit insane. 🤪

[@wildnkarafree]

your explanation and understanding of this philosophy called Non-dualism validated everything I have been contemplating, and why I have had so much frustration when listening to non dual teachers. Thank you for sharing! Thank you for the conversation.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Thanks and best wishes.

[@pwmkeys7958]

I have been listening to Paul Hedderman a lot recently and I have learned that what can be perceived cannot be perceiving and that you are what you're looking for, having never left your destination.

[@mikejohn2307]

Spot on. Thank goodness there are still people who can think for themselves.

[@mariannegraham5438]

I laughed out loud when you talked about Ramana Maharishi being a guy sitting around in a diaper. I like some of his talks but sometimes I have thought “he’s just a guy in a diaper” but have been too scared to say that out loud. I like the words “I don’t know”

[@RobertSaltzman]

Thanks, Marianne. We are all just human here.

[@slavkagough3023]

Dear Robert, thank you. Your authenticity has such beauty 😘

[@RobertSaltzman]

Dear Slavka, That is a lovely thing to say and a lovely one to hear. Thank you.

[@hansgouda8593]

Awesome! I have only listened to the first 3 minutes so far, but this is completely in line with how I view the words of some non-dual teachers. Few teachers say: 'I don't know' Fortunately, it was the great teacher Socrates who answered the question of whether there is a heaven (if I remember correctly): the wise don't worry about that. He also said: all I know is that I know nothing. It is starting to bother me more and more in my old age (if I were really concerned about it) that many teachers on KZbin claim to know how the universe works: universal consciousness is the foundation of the universe, the world is an illusion (instead of: my perceptions of the worlds are illusion). I don't know if there is a universal consciousness, but I do think that consciousness manifests itself in life. The absurd separation between body, mind and soul also does not appeal to me.

[@davidparsons3432]

Yes...much of the non-dual perspective is about negating the notion that this (mind/body) is you....which is fine...but it tends to invoke a denial of what it is to be alive and active....as this form right now...or even devalues it.

[@a13xdunlop]

It is “the self” that is denied, not the functioning body.

[@MrCastleJohnny]

Hey Robert, It's another thing to go against the craziness of non-dualism and the "new age spiritual gurus" and another thing to say that we don't know anything at all - total relativism is self-defeating. We do know many things that are objectively true and necessarily true.

[@RobertSaltzman]

I guess you have misunderstood me, asdrt. I am saying that we know nothing about ultimate matters--the kinds of things that religions and spiritual teachers claim to know about. Obviously, in ordinary life, many things are known, such as how to make a peanut butter sandwich or how far from here to Nepture.. Does that clarify it?

[@bluebird6966]

@@RobertSaltzman You say here we know nothing yet on the other hand you have said you've seen that the self is an illusion. So then who are the "we" that no nothing?

[@justinsmith623]

Sri Ramana Maharshi offered a hypothesis. He said try it and if it works for you, great. If not, that’s just what he experienced. He had no teachings other than silence. He did answer questions, but with the disclaimer that his answers were not to be considered teachings. He specifically said that nobody can tell you what truth is and that only you can get that realization yourself. Saying that he was just a man in a diaper and misrepresenting his life makes you lose any credibility you may have had. Your words come from a very limited mindset. He also said specifically not to believe anything he said, but to practice self-inquiry and find out for yourself what truth is to you. Although everyone is capable to do this, not everyone is ready. Thinking it’s okay to use it as an excuse for poor behavior or justifying lack of morals is just a couple of barriers between you and the point of the whole thing. It doesn’t work like that. Think of it as a natural speed limit. I’m not dying on a hill here, but I don’t like seeing anyone misrepresented by people who lack pertinent information. Using Ramana Maharshi as an example was not very well thought out.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Justin, I was not criticizing Ramana. I like the things he said and agree with some of them. Elsewhere, I have said that he seemed to be a good guy. My friend, John Troy, who knew the family well said that Ramana and I have a lot in common. Look at that part again and you will see that it was not about whether Ramana was any good or not, but about the sad tendency of humans to put other humans above them on pedestals. The diaper reference was a criticism of exoticism and how that contributes to the foolishness of spiritual seeking.

[@muay-thai-monk]

The comment was to take the guru off the pedastool. A problem with any teaching, is the people's tebdancy to act like a sheep and start to idolize and worship, surrendering critical thinking, open-mindedness, personal power etc. It's better to inquire about your own experience and be your own guru. Ramana seemed very introverted, maybe autistic, and for all we know he might have faked his enlightenment so he could stay at ashrams and live his life of Solitude in peace. Idolising gurus reminds me of the Monty Python movie 'The Life of Brian.' :)

[@MrResearcher122]

I just have two questions, both of which have no bad will. What is the 'nappy' like thing Bhagwan is wearing? Two, why in the pictures of him are his follows wearing dhotis and not what he was wearing? Perhaps there is something symbolic here....

[@dibelgelo]

Very good example and very good question about Ramana. Only adds to his credibility, from my point of view. Questioning is better than blind worship, which brings us back to inquiry :)

[@bernardfield7346]

well said robert. these teachers are truly tiresome bunch

[@Ndamulelo888]

Don’t say that😢, these teachers are just messengers trying to help humanity. Separate the message from the messenger. Don’t get attached to the teacher, try to get the message. It’s sad that a lot people are projecting onto these teachers as if they have something wrong. And a lot of you are just following these teachings without taking them into practice into your everyday lives . It’s easy to say that non- duality is scam.

[@awakeenlighten2298]

Robert, after years of being into Zen and Nonduality, I seem to be agreeing with you on this. They say it's not a teaching and there's nothing to teach. I've since moved away from it. Great video!

[@RobertSaltzman]

Thank you. I have always liked Zen myself, the point of which seems to be embracing the unique suchness of this moment right now, nondual or not. Since now already exists, what is there to resist? Since things are as they are when they are, what is there to figure out? I wish you well.

[@awakeenlighten2298]

@@RobertSaltzman Enjoyed your reply. Thanks, friend :)

[@angelmoon8114]

@@RobertSaltzman seems to be a strong resonance with what you apparently are speaking on ❤️

[@willchristie2650]

People who have taken non-duality as their dogma must do a lot of repression since everything in this world screams DUALITY.

[@ninjawolfist]

that's the point, it obviously seems dual, that's what the illusion is, the inability to see past the veil of duality

[@user-sk9sp7pe4y]

​Just like the waves can never exist apart from the sea, objects, including the body-mind, can never exist apart from awareness. ​@@ninjawolfist

[@willchristie2650]

@@ninjawolfist But we are here to experience duality, the need to make choices and decisions, the development of our free will, to see the results of our choices and those of others. So while in this "realm" to think only of non-duality is to me just a waste of time. You are here to experience duality or you would not be here. We are all here because we belong here now. So accept that and learn the lessons that are only available here. Non-duality will be our environment when we've graduated to it. Otherwise, it is just an intellectual diversion. Your ego can say "Hey, I must be really advanced spiritually because I can recognize that we are really all ONE and non-duality is the true reality". But meanwhile, you could be ignoring the lessons required here in duality. In metaphysical terms, I know people here in the 3rd dimension who have read a lot of metaphysical materials and pretend that they are in the 6th nondual reality. But they aren't. They can deny the realities of 3D, but eventually they fall on their face and realize that falling on their face hurts (metaphorically) and that they would rather not fall on their face. Back to duality!!!

[@krzysiekklb]

Actually it's the reverse, because if there's a nonduality, then there's nothing to be dual 😇

[@Tasmanaut]

Hi Robert, I'm new to this particular 'school' of thought, discovered Jim and Tony by chance, then watched your chat with Jim. I must say, my experience appears to align much more with yours, you retain a sense of scepticism and 'humanity' that appears lacking in others, at times, and you don't diminish the value of the individual's experience, however 'illusory' it may be. That is if I understand correctly what you are saying, and I think I do. After an 'awakening' experience, I had zero context or knowledge of the subject, having had no exposure too it, and sought out to find out what it was that had happened and why I had never head of this before. I became very disillusioned with the wishy washy 'it's all love and light and good vibes, man' of the new-age stuff very quickly after awakening, and was naturally drawn more towards Zen. I've sort of explored it all, or I thought I had, until as I say I came across Jim, Tony, and now going through some of your videos. It's perplexing isn't it? I think we can all sort of agree that it's 'this', but we don't know what it is at all. Jim's experience of his individuality completely vanishing and there being no meaning at all to the experience of the 'story' to me is assuming far too much. My experience is has not be one of total vanishing, it comes and goes, yet there is a recognition of 'this' being 'it' and of my sense of 'self' being an illusion. But there's a lot of variation and colour there that some of these speakers seem to completely deny as having any value what so ever. I think this is what you are saying as well, correct me if I'm wrong. If that is the case, then I share your sort of 'frustration' towards spirituality, as well, as there seems to be a complete lack of those following a middle path between it all being 'love and light and positive vibes' and a complete denial of any meaning whatsoever. I think we both agree it's much more nuanced and mysterious than that. Just my thoughts. The confusing aspect to me is what you are talking about regarding there being 'no doer', whether there is any moral obligation or even the capacity for there to be change at all. I know what Jim's perspective on this is, and it makes a certain sense, but it is very troubling. Maybe you might have some thoughts on this?

[@BP4722]

I appreciates listening to both, Jim and Robert. And.... If one person says; everything/life happens but no one is doing it and another person says; everything happens and there is some kind of a Self doing it, and ....there is no such thing as The ultimate truth......we just left with ....who knows ??? One can only goes by his own experiences, the moment he tries to convince others or other starts following him....we are back in the belief systems . If you kick Jim's shin his body will go through the pain and scream and he may kick you back ... Thats Nature ;-)

[@willchristie2650]

From a spiritual viewpoint, I believe that we are here to experience duality, the need to make choices and decisions, the development of our free will, to see the results of our choices and those of others. So while in this "realm" to think only of non-duality is to me just a waste of time and a form of mental masturbation. You are here to experience duality or you would not be here. We are all here because we belong here now. So accept that and learn the lessons that are only available here. Non-duality will be our environment when we've graduated to it. Otherwise, it is just an intellectual diversion. Your ego can say "Hey, I must be really advanced spiritually because I can recognize that we are really all ONE and non-duality is the true reality". But meanwhile, you could be ignoring the lessons required here in duality. In metaphysical terms, I know people here in the 3rd dimension who have read a lot of metaphysical materials and pretend that they are in the 6th nondual reality. But they aren't. They can deny the realities of 3D, but eventually they fall on their face and realize that falling on their face hurts (metaphorically) and that they would rather not fall on their face. Back to duality!!!

[@arunagreen8119]

It's horses for courses. Non duality has helped me get my life back after a serious Injury. It's only through disidentification that I have managed to feel confident to assert my needs. It's a paradox. It's simply the phenomenon of relaxing and not caring about something - then it happens! But you may be the sort of person who doesn't need that approach, which it sounds like you are. Another example is I've been nervous about singing a solo in choir. It's only when I have not really thought of my voice as my own - It's just a voice that is part of the world, that I have been able to fulfill my dream of singing. Strange isn't it but focussing on self can actually cause the self to loose out.

[@burchkinsolving489]

Great discussion. Thank you.

[@user-wf7db6px2q]

Jim Newman and Andreas Müller are indeed clones of Tony Parsons, they have copied his voice tonality and expression. Jim Newman even does the same facial expressions. It’s a freaking weird phenomenon.

[@XOXO-mb2vh]

Thank you Robert for validating my opinions about all this rigarmaroo.

[@RobertSaltzman]

You are most welcome.

[@vesaversion298]

Maybe them saying "All there is this" doesn't come from a place of knowledge, but from a sense of obviousness that manifests itself when the false self drops away. That's why they talk about 'unknowing' while still continuing to pontificate, but it only seems like a pontification when seen through 'your' perspective because you still think that they are making an intellectual point. They are not making an intellectual point, even though it would sound like one to a philosopher because that's the glass through which a philosopher views any statement.

[@RobertSaltzman]

And you know this how exactly? By "obviousness?" That's just silly talk.

[@vesaversion298]

@@RobertSaltzman That's why I said 'maybe'.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Thanks for pointing that out, Versa. :) There is a long conversation between me and Jim Newman about "not knowing" on my channel. Give it a watch and get back to me. Be well.

[@dexx44]

To know something, you already need two, the knower and the thing which is known. Nonduality has nothing to do with knowing or understanding. As long as there is the sense of separation, to be an individual, everything is seen through this glass of separation... no difference between an philosopher or anyone else. In the end it's just obvious... call it silly talk @ Robert... even the clearest discrcription would leave you with empty hands. This has nothing to do with someone. All there is is what's apparently happen. You apparent understanding, apparent working out of concepts is simply what's happening. To be in love with the own philosophy it's what's happen, want to stay in separation by seeking, by searching in concepts it's what's apparently happening, not wrong, just futile. "Obvious" is just another word to describe an apparent happening, an apparent recognition... words are meaningless, just pointers.

[@RobertSaltzman]

@@dexx44 To say that words are "meaningless" is more silly talk. If you really believe that, then you are just babbling meaninglessly and I'd advise maintaining silence at all times until you having something meaningful to say. Silly talk is just what I am critiquing here. It's an unfortunate feature of the nonduality industry of which you seem to be a loyal customer. Do you really feel up to lecturing me this way, man? You know nothing about me. Try reading one of my books and then see if you want to talk this way.

[@annieandaj]

How do these teachers know anything. It's all up for grabs. They have a point of view but that's it.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Yes again. That the human condition. Each of us has a point of view, the wellsprings of which are mostly invisible to us. There can be no perfect masters in the art of living.

[@annieandaj]

I SO AGREE about Jim Newman. He is a one trick pony and it's a very naive and unproductive understanding of what's up. Anyone can sit there and say "no" to everything but it's pretty pretentious and has very little to offer. Life isn't without nuance. Nuance is the very essence of life. All of the colors and interpretations are gorgeous and need not be denied. It's the seasonings...the whole enchilada...our very humanness. But, that being said, if you feel like there's nothing to do, no where to go and life is without meaning, have at it😅.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Yes, Annie. That's how speaking with Jim felt. He kept at me relentlessly as if I was not understanding his point of view but that wasn't it at all. He did seem to have a piece of the puzzle, but not enough of it and he spoke condescendingly as if the piece he had was the whole enchilada. - This aliveness is not divisible along a fixed boundary line so that there is only one way to grok it and anything else "doesn't exist." That view leaves too much out, and discourages full participation.

[@arunagreen8119]

Non duality can be confusing i have had the experience of feeling very conflictrd in life over things. Its helped me relax and lower my blood pressure and stop pointlessly worrying so much. If your mind doesnt need it then thats fine,!

[@zion367]

I really resonate with his words. All those people making all kinds of statements and present them as truth. I fully agree with him, except for the religion part. I am a selfchosen believer and came to faith 3 years ago due to my expansion of conciousness which allowed me to see the truth.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Zion, I am not criticizing belief in a higher power or faith in general. I was criticizing Evangelical Christianity and its horrible political aspect that wants to impose its so-called "values" on everyone else, even going so far as to compare Donald Trump, a self-confessed criminal rapist (grab 'em by the pussy) to Jesus.

[@franzhaas5597]

​@RobertSaltzman, I agree with everything you said in your video. I had come to the same conclusion myself on non duality. But trump never confessed to any kind of rape. He said once you get rich and famous, you can almost do whatever you want. Is grab by the p*ssy. He never said that he did this. He just said When you're rich and famous, you can get away with a lot of things." Trump can be an ass. But I also believe in being fair.

[@jillkent6134]

To my understanding it’s not so much that things don’t exist it’s more that they are temporary the more we attach to the temporary the more we suffer. It’s easy to become nihilistic about the world and ourselves but we are here so we may as well live fully just realised it’s all temporary.

[@jamesm5192]

They're all condescending towards Islam & Christianity, but both traditions have proven we do have control over our likes and dislikes. We can choose to not like what is wrong, and we can actually experience ourselves change to be in alignment with what is right. It is no wonder so many gurus get caught in scandals. Most "great" spiritual leaders will be caught in their inversions in this Yuga of Kali.

[@MrResearcher122]

I find it refreshing that most North India, where much of the Vedic literature was born, became Muslim. And not only through war. Satang movement seems like a money movement, and one the Indian Tourist Board must find helpful.

[@swayp5715]

I am glad I have seen this today and I couldn't agree more. Thank you very much

[@marcstone9533]

This guy has obviously never done Bufo, or he would’ve experienced non duality in its truest form.

[@byebye-w9o]

The non-dual way of thinking can also be very individual. For me it is useful in many ways to navigate this so called reality.

[@user-sk9sp7pe4y]

The book I've ever read on non duality and the best explanation on the topic is by John Wheeler and the book is called Awakening to the Natural state.

[@mobiustrip1400]

But who, or what, decides what is wrong?

[@edanan99]

Many nondualists do not live according a theory of nonduality, either. They have actually experienced nondual awareness and witness consciousness, such that they became witnesses to their own thoughts, feelings and actions. It is not some mere proposition that they have subscribed to, but rather a lived experience that they cannot deny which has shattered all their previous conceptions of reality

[@RobertSaltzman]

Witness consciousness is not "nondual." I consider your experience of being “the witness” to be a form of splitting, by which I mean that part of ordinary awareness is split off and made to seem separate and capable of observing the rest of one’s being. In my view, that is a lie one tells oneself. By definition, a witness is entirely dualistic. There is the witness on the one hand and what is being witnessed on the other. That is what I have been pointing out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4qykmR8Z72Wb8k That version of so-called "nonduality" is a kind of hypnotic trance. Yes, as you say, the previous conception of reality may have been shattered, but it has been replaced by a new conception that is no better than the shattered one. Perhaps it is worse, since you now believe it is somehow advanced or special. What you see, think, and feel IS you, not something another separate "myself" can witness. That is a delusion. You don't understand this and are trying to educate me. That's why I call it a trance.

[@edanan99]

@RobertSaltzman what is it you are disagreeing with exactly? You seem to acknowledge, as I have said, that people experience nondual states of consciousness. That these are not mere intellectual theories but rather felt experiences that are just as real as any other. You also say everything we experience is ourselves - honestly, I could not make a stronger affirmation of nonduality than that if I wanted. Also note that no one said anything about any state being "more advanced" than any other - that was your own hallucination. You seem to be disagreeing for the sake disagreeing.

[@RobertSaltzman]

I thought I had made this clear. The so-called "witness" is entirely dualistic and to claim that witnessing your thoughts and feelings has anything to do with what you imagine is "nondual awareness" makes no sense at all.

[@Ndamulelo888]

@@RobertSaltzmanit’s just a pointer, don’t get attached to it. The reason why we use language in “non- duality “ is not that you can understand this. We don’t have any other way to express it other than using language. Of course language creates duality and I do admit that. It’s even pointless to argue which right term to use as language itself is already a limitation. I hope this helps

[@RobertSaltzman]

@@Ndamulelo888 Who is this "we," and what do you mean by "helps?"

[@wjbkjay23464]

Non duality seems to ignore much of what I find in life to be existential. In a way it does seem to describe our most basic truth about what reality is, but is only a small part of it. So they say there is no death, just this, and it is taking place in the nanosecond. I think this is a dimensional shift in perception. It recognizes death, but says there is no death, and goes further to explain what is here or would be here, if there was no me, I, or self, and so that would be similar to death as most of us see it. But being human, we have access to more. 2 dimensional (duality), 3rd dimension, 4th dimensional space time. Self, I, me, mine, is a one dimensional concept, and no self would of course be 0 dimensional, resembling non existence, or death. So this meditation on non duality can lead one to transcend death. In our human experience, with our big wide brains, we can access so much more, thats why I feel that this meditation on non duality is just that, a meditation. It is zero dimensional, or negative 1 dimensional. Its that deep state where we become one with the "All" or the "Nothing", which I personally do not beleive to be same. In my opinion even the smallest thoughts we have are existential, much like the world we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. Its the benefit of being alive and human.

[@arunagreen8119]

Ive found non duality usefull to understand and help me relax about lots of trauma and angst that i have experienced. Its made sense with psychodynamic stuff as well. Rupert spira says " i dont know". Anyway it kinda is you but....up to a point. You can only try so hard. I have felt bullied by people all my life. As Tracey Emmin says abput her art " if someone doesnt get my work its not for them". My husband thinks its crap and dorsnt think sbout it. He runs a business and makes loads of decisions. But he sometimes walks on others but he wont realise. I feel very out of cobtrol amd i try and take on others responsibility and its too much. No you missing the point! You still apologise and do what you want. Whatever the you is. I wonder if this is where christ comes into it. And love.

[@foxdenham]

Thank you so much Robert. Although not part of the non dual movement, I love some of their perspectives and observations. But, like many spiritual 'pop-ups' of the current zeitgeist, they soon garner too many teachers, leading too many followers, and dismiss the idea of the unknowably transcendent, much too quickly. ND teaching also appeals to a particular mindset (which is fine, but strangely dualistic). It also knows too much about 'not knowing' and spends a lot of time working hard at 'being' (essentially 'doing'') and at the risk of sounding too harsh, most KZbin ND Influencers are far too cocky for their own good🤔 There are one or two good teachers (in part) out there, but yeh, a lot of misguided-pretenders sewing seeds of confusion. Ps: Don't blame me for these opinions......they didn't happen!!😂

[@RobertSaltzman]

🤣

[@MrResearcher122]

Who are the good teachers, Sir? You might be doing a service if you drop a name or two.

[@diannea.2587]

sowing 🤔

[@foxdenham]

@@diannea.2587 oh yeh… sew it is! 🤪

[@Peter-vn5jq]

That's EXACTLY my problem with them. They all seem to think they've found the ultimate truth, and that the extent of the mystery of creation is "we're just like, the Universe experiencing itself bro", and are content to leave it at that. Baffling.

[@dethtrain]

It's interesting how the teachers seem to regurgitate what their teachers taught.

[@50870133]

Thank you. I learn from decent nondual teachers, there are several. The ones who are mentioned here are neo advaita teachers. They dont contribute to anything positive, it is nihilism at the worst: There is no one here, there is Nothing to do..

[@sTeVe-vl3nh]

For me the message of no me sounds not like nihilism. In Nihilism there has to be an entity, living in a meaningless, empty universe. If the center drops, there is no-thing which could be understood as no thing separate or special etc. This would mean the only 'thing' that's happening or existing is everything. And it's full of everything potential to be, it's everything. There only would be no meaning like persons have, to make sense out of their existence. In my understanding it's quite the opposite of Nihilism. Sorry for texting unasked alot of this bs, I don't really know, why i care about such blabla 🤣

[@ibrahimchaudhry9024]

Thank you. 💐❤🕊🙏🏽🕊❤💐

[@winniethuo9736]

Jiddu Krishnamurti on Freedom from the known is also great

[@prajnabala]

JK had a girl in every port and managed to hide it all. And he had a long time love affair with his best friend's wife and managed to hide that as well. That was his greatest miracle. Freedom from the Unknown.

[@FirstnameLastname-ty1qd]

So what?​@@prajnabala

[@robertcooper8939]

Revelations are like windows into the Devine,(hard to define in words)we still have to live out our divine karmic reactions ..learn to become a divine nobody in your truth

[@bluebird6966]

How can something stand outside of itself to see what it is? There is only the self. I'm confused as I've read some of your stuff and it does seem as if there's been a seeing of no separate self but then in this interview you mention how Robert is real in the world? Just trying to gain some clarity that's all

[@virgillazar1918]

It's not a jargon, it's a series of question that Can help to mature inside, but nothing Can help you, but seems liké the search for knowing IS still there. They always Say "i dont know" by the way, but "i dont know" IS not a confession or a statement again a question to mature note an answer to seek..... I really Wonder sometimes, some people Say there IS nothing and try to make it see, and some other wants stuff to live, and After that make vidéo to Say how much they have no prétention but also search things to be stimulate by..... Maybe there IS a miscompréhension here, or the non acceptance that it is not knowable.

[@Rob_TheOne]

👍 No doer is miss understood! It's pointing to the fact we are a watcher. Words fall apart... I no longer control my body I only point it's attention... It does the rest. I never actually have to wash dishes...I put on a pod cast and point my mind somewhere else. Try and step back watch yourself do something there's a gap You have to have direct experience.

[@mfit7110]

Exactly 🎯

[@byebye-w9o]

The Dio shirt brought me comfort.

[@radley9]

Actually there is nothing wrong with what the study of non-duality brings to the proverbial table as that particular diet fed at least for me a deeper inner understanding. But so had Dzogchen Buddhism and Jung etc etc. It is the insistence that there is no one that anything happens to in a fragile world that can easily misundertand that stance that bothers me. Its popularity for some not all can be attributed to the eradication of a self that for those not mature enough is a fool's errand. And ultimately dangerous. But the insights that many different paths can bring is sometimes greater than just one is obvious. We are organic multi-dimensional creatures best understood as arising in the totality of experience. Whatever that may be.

[@prajnabala]

Without self there is still what happens. There is being a mother, grandmother, great grandmother. There is thought, voting, eating, sleeping, dancing tango, feeling pleasure and pain, life and death. Some things are liked and some are not liked. Actually there is no difference here, except perhaps a lightening of the load. All this without a self that sits somewhere inside managing a body and soul. This appears to be life. It is not any more dangerous than all the so-called selves running around arguing and killing in the name of love thy neighbor.

[@radley9]

@@prajnabala Perhaps I didn't make myself clear" Its popularity for some(not all) can be attributed to the eradication of a self that for those not mature enough is a fool's errand."I have seen to many people in my life who need a different approach to their problems but instead try to negate a self that they despise. And yes it is more dangerous for some. Again I hope you read what I wrote carefully. Perhaps I am not so clear a I have come down with Covid and am a bit foggy.

[@prajnabala]

​@@radley9 Yes, I see. I just do not think these so called "non-duality" ideas are any more or less dangerous than any other ideas -- such as Mary was virgin. All abstract ideas and concepts are open to misinterpretation. People surely suffer from thoughts of all kinds. I hope you come through covid in good health.

[@radley9]

@@prajnabala Thank you Ellen. Its been a rough few days but getting better. Now time to tend my wife.

[@dexx44]

This has nothing to do with selftalk like "there is no doer, so i can behave like an asshole" ... if you feel to apologize, then that's what's happen, you are not doing it. Sure, this message can change some conditionings, than that's what's happening, it can't be any other way. There is no longer a claiming of ownership, this just drops completely - that means there is no one. No one who talks to himself "I am not the owner of my actions, thoughts and so on... these are ideas of the apparent individual, such ideas has nothing to do with what is shared by people like Tony, Jim, Naho. ..

[@hansenmarc]

I love it when people are willing to say the emperor is not wearing clothes. Thank you for that. Yes, so many non-dualists say they don’t know anything, and you should only rely on direct experience. Then in the next breath they talk about how many things are “clearly seen”. It should be obvious to anyone listening that those “clearly seen” things are beliefs rather than direct experience or perception. The other thing that drives me nuts about radical-nondual-speak is that because they believe the self is illusory, anything that happens is done by “no-one”. I’m not typing these words, no-one is typing them. It reminds me of the story of Odysseus and the cyclops. Admittedly there’s not a great way to express this idea in English, but it would be much clearer to say something like: the “character” or the body/mind or the organism is typing these words. It seems that much of the point of radical nondualism is to completely confuse the listener and then laugh about the confusion.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Good comment, Marc. Try the new link to the banned interview now.

[@Akash_heard]

This Me, thinks that nonduality is filled with concepts within concepts = biz. Jeshua/ Jesus said "My father and I are One" = no two. Each person is one, no two, etc. Hence, each "awakening" is one... no two. It's unique. Nonduality speakers repeat the same, including defensive attitude, and I don't know the reason, but it is noticeable, just don't crucify them. All is neutral. 🙏 Thank you 😊

[@RobertSaltzman]

Righto, Cecelia. I'm not into "crucifying" anyone. Walter has been reading my books and asked to do the interview. If someone asks me a question, I reply as honestly as I can. Otherwise, I don't think much about so-called "nonduality," which at this point has become a faddish religious belief system like Evangelical Christianity.

[@exaiphnes0]

"My Father(unconscious state-darkness) and I (conscious-Ego-light) are One..." The Father in order to know Himself brings forth his conscious(Christ),so there is a split..the One becomes two, its like looking to a mirror to see yourself... That split is between light and darkness(conscious & unconscious). Now the light(ego) has to admit that the darkness is also part of him ,so he has to "die" (crusified) and sacrifice his old beliefs of himself in order to have full self realization..

[@Akash_heard]

@Robert Saltzman I add that I follow Jim and Tony but I don't perceive them as nonduality teachers, if I do, all the nonduality baggage attaches to them. Jim and Tony suggest that "there's no one there/here". I think they could change their "title". I perceive Jim as: simply this. Tony as: open secret. 🤷‍♀️🙂

[@Akash_heard]

@@exaiphnes0thank you. If I had Jeshua/Jesús phone number or email address I would ask him if that is what he meant. But since I don't want to know about anything any more, I will not look on how to communicate with him to ask. Your explanation is a good one, thanks for sharing, but complicated, and this me believes that such commplicate-ness is what makes people afraid. Either they run as fast as they can or hide as much as they can. Now, there's no ego. That, called ego, is a thought. A thought created as tool by the creator of all... it comes and goes as everything else. "Ego" tool, makes duality be perceived, no ego, no duality. When that thought integrates, not crucified (a thought can't be crucified) is when duality ends. I don't know anything about nothing. Then all becomes bla, bla, bla... 🙂🙏❤️

[@ibrahimchaudhry9024]

Baffling. If not non-nonduality... then what is the ultimate truth / philosophy?

[@RobertSaltzman]

Your question assumes two things that may be false: 1. That there is some "ultimate truth" 2. Even if there were some ultimate truth, that someone knows what it is.

[@prajnabala]

@@RobertSaltzman what you just said is the ultimate truth.

[@ibrahimchaudhry9024]

@@RobertSaltzman So very true. Thank you heartily. 🙏🏽🌷🙏🏽 Much Love,

[@ibrahimchaudhry9024]

@@prajnabala Indeed.

[@ibrahimchaudhry9024]

@@RobertSaltzman The search is finally over. Time to just Be. Nothing here. Nothing. No one.

[@prajnabala]

I agree with Robert and love his writings. However, Robert points to some "non-duality" teachings as saying that they know the truth; and that they talk of consciousness as being the ultimate truth. That may be true of some so-called "Non-duality" teachers, but that is not what is said by Tony Parsons or Jim Newman or many others, such as UG Krishnamurti. The latter say clearly that consciousness is duality; without self there is no consciousness; when self falls away there is no consciousness. At least that is what I have heard.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Hi, Ellen. To me, "without self there is no consciousness" sounds backwards." Without consciousness, there is no self seems more like it. :) As I see it, "myself" is made up of a physical body, perceptions, feelings, thoughts, and awareness or consciousness of all that. That IS "me," and it's constantly changing. "Self," in my experience, does not "fall away." Rather, one sees that it has no permanent fixed essence but depends on conditions to be what it is from moment to moment. It's not that "I" disappear, but I am a different "I" today than I was yesterday or even one minute ago.

[@prajnabala]

@@RobertSaltzman Yes, self/consciousness - two sides of the same coin. I guess I flipped the coin and it came out that way. As I see it, the physical body - form, sensation, perception, memory, consciousness, and all that jazz -- is empty of self existence.

[@RobertSaltzman]

That's a hard sell since everyone I have ever known feels, i one way or another, like a self. To not feel like a self at all, you'd have to be dead or in a coma. Kick Jim Newman in the shin and see if there is no "self" there. Lots of luck with that. :) A key, in my view, is to understand that "self" is not some permanent fixed "thing," but changes according to conditions. So it is not "nothing," but not exactly a "thing" either. It's a body, feelings, perceptions, thoughts, and awareness of al that. That's how I see it, but others are free to disagree. The main point of this interview, of which this is a fragment--and we see this in the comments---is how deeply embedded in some minds this "nonduality" stuff has become. In my view, "nonduality" leaves out far too much of ordinary experience in favor of an idealistic belief system.

[@007lutherking]

@@RobertSaltzman look at it from the evolution perspective. The self or the "conscious" experience doesn't come into picture untill you've evolved into a normal human being. All the other lower animals are in a way unconscious and automatic/instinct driven and cannot override their instincts.. they possess one brain.. the body brain.. We humans possess two brains.. body brain and the neo cortex which is far removed from individual body and is more akin to a common denominator amongst all normal humans. Yep.. the basal ganglia, limbic system and neo cortex modes of perception. Each of these 3 brain regions signs of evolution and each of those are vastly different and hierarchical evolved ways to survive and thrive in the environment. Everything below the level of neo cortex is automatic and semi automatic..we can only control our neo cortex and the purpose of neo cortex is to discover the truth of the environment it interacts with.. those truths are passed down into the unconscious (basal ganglia and limbic system) and then those truths add to thr repository of all the existing truths that has made you.. YOU. For instance your hear rate is a truth .. blood flow rate is a truth value.. if it goes wrong then it's a false value and you die... survival is basically embodying the truth in any given environment.. At some distant past we we able to manipulate our heart rate to match the surroundings.. those who couldn't.. those animals did not make it.. a brute force evolution. All the existing truths form thr body brain and neo cortex forms the brain under our control which we share with every normal human hence we have this globalization unlike animals.. Body brain has its own language..yhr the language logic of dreams.. primary process thinking..von domarus principle /paleologic thinking.. if you have mental illness ..it means that you've embodied a false belief and so you get pushed back into your unconscious to correct your false belief.. hence the psychosis and all the other issues of thr mentally ill which are easily explained if you know how unconscious functions.. Neo cortex operates on Aristotelian thinking .. secondary process thinking.. we share logic and rationality and it's common amongst all normal humans. Logical arguments is how we break chaos into pieces and make sense of it .. discover truths and become more..Pierce into chaos with structure. Without neo cortex there's no conscious experience.. Without neo cortex you're an animal. An unconscious being driven by instincts and a flawed logic based on pattern recognition logic and superstitions. Below that you're just a brute force creature playing the game of odds. So neo cortex is the source of our conscious experience.. which is in turn very dependant on the vast unconscious reserve from all the millions of years of discovering and embodiment of the truth. You can program your neo cortex by learning logical arguments and avoiding logical fallacies.. and your neo cortex grows and inturn it helps you become better at making it better... its a positive feedback loop and the opposite is just as true and that's one way ticket to mental illnesses and addictions. Thr issue is.. often it's the case that neo cortex is in direct conflict with the interest of your body. Hence the vast contradiction in human behavior and their words everywhere. It's possible to be your fully body self and it's also possible to be your fully neo cortex self detached from your body's interests. One is irrational and other is rational. The Anima and animus. That's just one dimension of thinking. Let me take you to the 4th dimension now. You see.. quite like the "flatland" thr 3 brain regions are each a dimension in itself.. lower has no conception of the higher.. but higher can understand lower.. Lowest dimension is basal ganglia the reptilian brain.. 2nd is limbic system and 3rd is neo cortex.. as we evolve further we might develop a 4th brain region which will open up new understandings of the universe and about ourselves.. we as of now can't comprehend it.. just like how flatland creatures can't comprehend a sphere. All I know is things are easier to understand when you have access to all the pieces of information.. which we don't atm. So support science.. support research.. support explorations.. the journey is not over yet.

[@prajnabala]

@@RobertSaltzmanThis is not about feeling like a self or not feeling like a self. I don't know that there isn't a self. There simply isn't a self. There is nothing to sell or prove. There are normal, ordinary feelings and the functions of human life, which as you say, are always changing. And, there is nothing more ordinary than this. It is just that self has nothing to do with it -- just as self does not digest food or pump blood. This is not a concept like "Non-duality", which is a holy business. ND is a teaching pretending not to be a teaching. There is nothing to sell or prove. If you kick me in the shin it will probably hurt and what reactions would come is to be seen.

[@Weeflowerofscotland]

Personally, I’m not comfortable with anyone telling me they know for a fact that the philosophy they believe in is fact. We have absolutely no clue! We could just be apes with highly evolved brains or we could be all consciousness! Each of us has an individual ‘idea’ but to state it as facts and tell others that their view is wrong sounds pretty ego driven to me.

[@hermansohier7643]

Saying that you're not talking about non-duality is bullshit ,in order not to talk about something you have to confirm it even exists .About the non-doership it's the same ,first you have to believe in doership until it hits that no one is doing anything .When the imaginairy self or the mind takes that as a believe it will most defenitely go very wrong .Non- duality is not a believe ,it's just what it is .

[@Speydork666]

You say noone knows the truth . Every human must relay on their experience when it comes to that question. Our experience is the ONLY thing that can tell truth. When it comes to life, you must understand that we cant take the word of someone else what the truth are. That would be madness.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Perhaps you and I are using the word "truth" differently, Jan. I mean that no one knows any truth about metaphysics nor true answers to questions about free will, choice, self-determination, destiny, and who are we anyway. I will agree with you about not taking anyone's word for those things, but I would not agree that experience leads to truth. I do not think we have any access to truth in the way I mean that word. Regarding ultimate existential questions, we are in freefall with nothing to grasp and no exit, in my view.

[@barrydupont9744]

It should be obvious that there is a flaw in Radical Nonduality. There is a flaw in Nonduality where the Space-time experience is purely an illusion. You and I having both never experienced what it is like to look into a microscope or telescope will both see the same exact illusion when we are looking at the same exact never before seen things. If we are talking about a dog chasing it's tail and then about there not being a tail, a dog or a chase then something went wrong unless they are both valid for what they are. And there we have a valid space-time vantage point and a valid Space-time is One vantage point. The human vantage point is valid. So then I'm going to both play the Human, while doing my very best to do so, and realize I'm on some level more than one just playing a part. This because the probability of the "playing" was designed by consciousness itself. We can chew gum and walk. I can be the Human, play the part, and realize that there is more than the part. One does not come at the nullification of the other. What we can talk about is two possible valid vantage points where there is a dog chasing its tail and that dog is one with all other vantage points even where there is no Space-time. Where all space-time is One does not destroy the vantage point experience of being in the history of Space-time. In this scenario Space-time is Designed. Consciousness or Intrinsic Mind designed it and we are experiencing that vantage point as a created compartmentalization. And there is still Oneness. Nonduality must start with the complexity of Intrinsic Mind that can compartmentalize infinitely. It actually takes Nonduality Theism to make sense of Nonduality. It is the complexity of mind itself on an intrinsic level that gives it structure. Otherwise you have a non-existence, existence. "I am" cannot be circumvented. It's impossible to start with Consciousness and then explain an organized shared illusion that has no design from the Consciousness. The illusion must itself be explained. The "non-illusion" must be explained. The thinking about the thinking has to be explained. We can look at history, uncover lost cities, calculate the direction and speed of the planets. It's designed. It's purposeful. We can theorize that Nonduality may be completely wrong to begin with. That's ok but it is likely that it is correct in some form, some way if Mind is going to have itself Meaning. But it is mind itself that undermines a lot of what is being presented as Nonduality in my view.

[@ggates5371]

I’ve had numerous Buddhist agree with me when I say the purpose of Buddhism is to show you that you don’t need Buddhism. It’s kinda silly.

[@Stefan69whatever]

2:00 this is the humility that is mostly missing in non-duality.

[@DAClub-uf3br]

The stupid part is thinking that you are the universe. Egotistical too.

[@sanekabc]

When you speak it is clear that at least part of the universe is intelligent.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Thanks for the kind words, Testa. Yes, we can see intelligence in living beings with brains. To say that intelligence is a property that exists prior to brains is only idealistic speculation based on no evidence at all, as I see it.

[@sanekabc]

@@RobertSaltzman It is an interesting question as to how a force which gives rise to brains and consciousness is itself not conscious. It reminds me of a seed which becomes an oak. I guess it is a question of the difference between potential and realization. I mean, I may have the potential to be the greatest living piano player but can I lay claim to that skill unless I realize it or bring it into being through hard work. So, we cannot say that the potential which created the universe is conscious, only that it has the potential for consciousness, after it becomes a brain through hard work.

[@patriciaedwards2833]

Just read “ The Knee of Listening “ ( Ed.2004 ) the autobiography of Avatar Adi Da Samraj. Read with an open heart and mind, it can transmit his Divine State. He transmitted his State to animals and plants as well.

[@prajnabala]

I spent 8 years with that guy -- many many years ago. In the heyday of crazy wisdom. Then I walked out the door -- and that's a good thing!

[@patriciaedwards2833]

@@prajnabala Did you receive Adi Da’s Hridaya Shaktipat ? I have, on occasions,and It transcends the conditional worlds. Why did you walk out ?

[@julianpilbrow4963]

He don't know why the Xtians don' tsay I did not!

[@andreichetan4694]

Everything in Enlightmen teaching is veilled in vagueness and theres nothing to search. I dont belive in it, i”ll never will and i dont care if someone will say im not awakened. I feel awake and good without non duality, people search meaning for centuries and said Gurus profit from human desires, human fear and the promisse of an enlightned state to avoid life harshes or cope better actualy made some people insane😊 I choose to be me, with my good traits and flaws. Theres no remedy to cheat, avoid life, beside death Every concept invented by man, cant be 100% percent unless its science. Believe in what you want, but care about how beliefs impact you, unless there”s no you😊

[@skoog5600]

What’s not wrong with it? Silliness all of this question asking is.

[@yosoy857]

yes !All of Tony Parsons' disciples, and he himself, always give a mechanical response, it is a childish perception of the world and they do not investigate deeper, finally, it is true that there is no one here, but there is also a deep belief that there is some person here separate from the rest, and that must be attended to. I also have no interest in the Tony Parson trend, Rupert spira, Mooji, etc. resonates with me more (in the sense that it awakens in me a truth that I already know). But finally, only silent observation can give a slightly deeper perception, and it would be the silence where the phenomena appear, become more evident and the phenomena have less weight to say it in some way.

[@carlrichards9333]

Blah Blah Blah Blah....

[@imransuhail82]

"We dont know if the universe is non dual, we can't stand outside the universe and observe it" ..... yeah so there is no separation? that sounds like non duality 😇

[@RobertSaltzman]

To me, that makes no sense at all. You seem to have misunderstood me entirely. Maybe a metaphor would help. A frog may imagine that the little pond he lives in is the entire universe and that the universe. being nothing but water, is "nondual," but he would be mistaken.

[@RaraAvis42]

@@RobertSaltzman You begged the question by asserting a pond and a frog, Robert. Just as you begged the question by asserting that there's a subject called a "universe" that "we" can (or can't) stand apart from. Until you see that, you won't get how there really isn't separation. But Robert never will--it's just an *apparent* begging of the question. Looping, looping, looping....all the way down.....

[@RobertSaltzman]

@Elizabeth Fuller A metaphor cannot exactly beg the question. But I do take your point. Yes, I begin with naturalism--not as a fact, but as a working hypothesis. I assume that you and I are animals living in a physical universe and that brains actually exist, but I do not ask you to agree, and I could be mistaken. That said, if you assert thaat I won't "get how there isn't any separation," who is saying that? Those words assume a lot, including the implication that you "get" something I don't "get," which projects a sense of difference and splitting--much more than mine about frogs and ponds. So much for "nonduality."

[@katehiggins9940]

@@RobertSaltzman I sure am glad to be watching videos these days with folks talking about this as Neo advaita got totally suffocating for me. I think I’m just left with I really don’t know anything other than the fact that I really love my two children, I want the absolute best for them, I want them to have peace of mind, peace in their heart, and not be riddled with self criticism. I would like them to know their innocence and not be burdened by such a difficult critical voice. Self-consciousness lol. It seems to be all I know. And of course I want this for myself as well. and for everyone. I see that we are all uniquely individual as well as all the same five elements that appear to make everything :-) Both and Both and Both and. Thank you Robert

[@katehiggins9940]

ps i knew it wouldn’t be long before the non dual scene had different denominations 😜 impossible to avoid thanks to technology

[@dwoopie]

In the beginning there was the word...the word was with god and the word was god...so the word was...with and god.there is your dual world ...but this dual world is made by one god...so the truth is non dual...

[@RobertSaltzman]

And you know that how exactly?

[@dwoopie]

@@RobertSaltzman in the same way Jezus knew he was god...because god is the only reality...

[@RobertSaltzman]

One more try, Dwoopie, and if you can'r do better than "because I say so," I'll ban you from commenting.

[@dwoopie]

@@RobertSaltzman it,s not so easy to explain...i can,t dissect the nature of humanity and the universe in one sentence...

[@RobertSaltzman]

@@dwoopie Yes. Thank you for your honesty. I am sure you are right about that. The Bible, which you quoted, has around 800,000 sentences, and couldn't do it either.

[@mfit7110]

He’s just frustrated.

[@derekkase7884]

I know I exist, I know I am, I know I am aware, know that I don't know.. dot

[@777xino]

Non-duality means there is no separation between objective experiences, including thoughts, feelings, and sensations, and the reality that knows them. Non-duality is not a concept, but a fact, for you cannot have an object apart from the knowing element, call it whatever you like. It is only a pointer to the true life or reality within us. The pointers of non-duality tell us there is no separate self or person. There is no independent entity that has the power to exercise freewill. Not realising this to be the case, humanity lives in a conceptual realm based on imagination and not reality. Hence the confusion and problems suffered at the personal level that extends to the wider community and affect every society founded and structured on false premises.

[@RobertSaltzman]

"Non-duality is not a concept, but a fact, for you cannot have an object apart from the knowing element, call it whatever you like." Really? How do you know that objects cannot exist apart from awareness of them? From my perspective, that is not "a fact," but a belief or a dogma.

[@777xino]

@@RobertSaltzman For the simple reason that no one has ever experienced any object in the absence of knowing it. This implies that in the absence of consciousness, not a single thing exists. The beauty of the non-dual approach is to rely on your own direct experience and not on hearsay (however holy its source), or on speculation, or on inference. The stamp of reality has to be your own experience. We are not talking about conventional reality which appears only after non-conceptual awareness, or whatever you want to call it. If you claim that objects exist apart from the awareness that knows them, then you are looking at this from the standpoint of duality. It is the conventional view based on the belief in separation.

[@RobertSaltzman]

@blue eyes I do not claim that "objects exist apart from the awareness that knows them." I simply do not know, and you don't either. Yes, perhaps "no one has ever experienced any object in the absence of knowing it," by which you mean, I assume noticing it or being aware of it. That is a tautology and so is automatically true simply because to "experience" an object is the same as "knowing it." In saying that, you are only saying that experiencing and knowing are the same thing, which says nothing meaningful about "nonduality." Your words here illustrate a principal problem with nonduality, its anthropocentrism. Do you really believe beyond any doubt that unless a human notices it, the moon does not exist? If so, you'd better have better proof than x is equal to x.

[@777xino]

@@RobertSaltzman It is a matter of being honest with oneself, and not adding to the confusion. There is enough of that already, don’t you think? Simplicity and honesty is always best for those fed up of seeking and suffering and who have had enough of concepts and really wants to get at the heart of the matter-being clear as to their true identity. It isn’t that difficult. How can it be when the natural state is the most basic and ordinary “experience” everyone knows already; though they may not realize its significance? It helps to clarify, or be clear about the basics and refrain from mystifying or complicating something that is simple and natural. In my experience, awareness is always present and never absent while objects come and go. This is not a belief. Moreover, it is the truth for everyone. In effect, it is a universal truth. I cannot deny the existence of Being, recognised in consciousness as the sense “I am,” but what is added to the “I am,” along with what appears within it can be questioned, doubted, and denied in terms of how they are perceived by the mind. Phenomena as thought-forms are essentially non-existent, in the sense that they have no independent existence, and are not separate from the knowing principle. Anyone can verify this for themselves. Where is the need for more proof? Is not your own experience proof enough? Besides, who needs it, and how are they going to determine its validity if the proof provided is measured by an instrument limited in time? Can time know the timeless? The mind is limited, and the only proof that will satisfy it will have to be bound by its own limitations. It is the reason so many seekers after a lifetime of searching are still suffering from their experiences. They look to their minds for a resolution. The mind understands concepts but non-duality is not a concept. Non-duality points to the unconditioned, boundless, timeless reality that we are. A little looking reveals its presence, but not as an object, which is just a limited manifestation of its infinite potential.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Yes, I know you are speaking in good faith, so no worries there, blue eyes. But you seem to have a fixed idea resting upon incomplete evidence that you imagine is complete. For example, you say, "In my experience, awareness is always present and never absent while objects come and go." That may be your experience, but it says nothing conclusive about the objects, but only what you personally notice or fail to notice. I asked you if you imagine that the moon exists only when you are looking at it. Actually, you don't even know if you are correct when saying that "awareness is always present. Suppose awareness were not always present, but came and went, how would you know that? Suppose instances of awareness were interspaced by periods of no awareness whatsoever, how would the existence of states of no awareness be known? Logically, and practically there would be no way. After all, if there is no awareness, that's the same as being absolutely invisible. Apparently, you have bought into this anthropocentric view entirely that imagines that the universe is defined by what humans notice and fail to notice. I do not agree with that view. Humans know almost nothing about what exists and what does not, including that we don't know what consciousness is or is not. The idea that there is a way of knowing that is not dependent on "the mind" is a silly nonduality trope in my view, a kind of nonsense that only sounds meaningful.

[@pretheeshgpresannan4172]

To say there is no me or no self is kind of right as in there is no firm I when we are mostly pushed and pulled by whatever thoughts or feelings pops up but to celebrate such a pathetic state is a perverse thing. It is also obvious that it is only a random 'self' in this moment is going to love being told there is no self. 😂

[@RobertSaltzman]

I like that, Pretheesh. It's a point of view I have never heard put that way. Well-said. :)

[@pretheeshgpresannan4172]

@@RobertSaltzman It is like I could be feeling lazy but yet I desire to drink a good cup of tea or get out of my phone :) but then I gotta hope against hope that one of those thoughts that will come up in my head is gonna fix my laziness or situation. And from there I can wander around spiritual enlightenment or nonduality or whatever in my head, OR I can learn to STOP relying on being in my head (as habitual as it is) expecting a miracle out of my garbage load of thoughts--snap out of endless thought-feeling creations which is what happens automatically when I sleep with eyes open. And nonduality is more like just continue sleeping lets normalize sleep yet here and then we can think up some thoughts about no-self or I am witness or whatever that keeps the sleep boat rowing. There is no need to keep investing in the hope that I can think out of my lethargy or worry or anything for experience shows that is a stupid exercise as automatic as it is :)

[@adoc.3853]

knowing that "mistake was made" and apolgising to someone is very good knowledge for someone who claims of not knowing anything. Similar to U.K logic

[@bruceparker805]

hallay f*cking looyah YES

[@winniethuo9736]

Jiddu Krishnamurti.

[@shanesmith7515]

❤

[@unnameablespace8945]

He answered his own question by the statement "we would have to stand outside of the universe to know what it is" ... this is an experiential reality in my experience... 🥰 experiencing the peace that passes understanding. The finite cannot know the infinite. Therefore it seems the speaker is seemingly still connected to the meat stick identity.

[@RobertSaltzman]

Silly talk. If the finite cannot know the infinite, why do you babble about it? If that sounds harsh, I do not take kindly to condescension or being lectured at.

[@tennysontaggart]

@@RobertSaltzman Curious on your take of this, if you don't mind humoring me. It seems to me if there is an infinite something, than a finite something would be inescapably immersed in, and made of it, only seeming finite because to attempt to measure anything could only capture a finite result (plus perhaps an awareness that there is still more to measure). Since what escapes measurement is whatever wasn't included in the dimensions the tool encapsulates or doesn't take into account, measurement can never expand enough to encapsulate infinite dimensions of available measurement. If our brain/body system has to make measurements to map out experience, they are characterizing a finite quality by virtue of making measurements, and therefore presenting experiences of finite qualities. We can still conceptualize beyond our capacity to emprically measure, with science that proves the availability of dimensions beyond what we directly know. I think quantum entanglement across time experiments are a good example of this. So it seems to me to make sense that if the assumption of infinity is provably true, then it it makes sense that we can have a conceptual awareness of it only and never be able to process it, while also essentially being it. I think the same logic could apply to a "pure nondual oneness". Any time a measurement is made, it has to cut out some of what's available. Infinite cuts can be made in this sense, so there's the endless availability for more, without it ever being perceivable in totality because it's the measurements themselves that are forced to exclude something in order to measure anything. So if I measure spacial volume, I'm conceptually excluding and therefore perceptually excluding, which makes the measurement of what is inside my awareness of totality and outside my awareness of totality true to my experience, but forever inaccurate of objective reality, be it infinite or totally singular. So the concept of a nondual yet infinite availability & production of experiencial multiplicity acts as a conceptual context that if able to be proven, would be an appropriate reference to every aspect of a mental model of life, no? Because of our ever continuing measurements of what is, this seems to me forever increasingly likely, but never completely provable, since to prove is make difinitive measurement.

[@RobertSaltzman]

@@tennysontaggart HI, Tennyson. Sure, I will give you my take on it. 1. There's nothing wrong with speculation about so-called "nonduality," as long as it is recognized for what it is. The problem arises when logic and speculation are assumed to lead to the ultimate "truth." They cannot because any "truth" will only apply within the boundaries of the original axioms which are speculative (see #2) 2. In mathematics, there is not just "infinity," but various infinities of different sizes. There are larger infinities that contain smaller ones. In fact, there may be an infinity of different infinities. This is not known. So an argument from "infinity" can hardly serve to support the idea that nonduality is an ultimate factual "truth." 3. One can say that one feels one's experience to be "nondual," but any one human's experience cannot be said to define the universe, which may be nondual or not. Unless one adopts the solipsistic position which says that "I" am all that really exists and the apparent world is only taking place in my mind (which for many of us occurred to us in adolescence and then was quickly rejected), one must admit that personal experience cannot get answers--truthful answers, I mean--to ultimate metaphysical questions, so those who babble and preach about nonduality are, in my view, talking through their hats.

[@tennysontaggart]

@@RobertSaltzman Thank you. It seems like Nonduality is convincing enough to some that it acts as an adequate simulation of no longer needing to search for the end-all truth, instead of just giving it up.

[@bluebird6966]

He wasent saying that. He meant there would have to be a duality for something to stand outside of itself to know what it it. Obviously there is no duality.

[@unknownpwn428]

Magical special shoe fun time hour dances the Sandai

[@alejandrosaez1772]

You were not born with an "I" that doesn't know.

[@a13xdunlop]

The I does not arise until around 18 mths, the “self” does not develop until then.

[@zepto5945]

Non-Duality is either a fact you have confirmed for yourself or it is not.

[@RobertSaltzman]

I can think of other possibilities other than the false duality you have just inflicted upon this page.

[@zepto5945]

​@@RobertSaltzman To be fair I should mention I dont subscribe to Jim Newman-type ideas that "there is no you." I don't believe you're not a person. For me, existence is One whole completeness. And that's self-evident despite how little we perceive.

[@RobertSaltzman]

@@zepto5945 "Self-evident" is a personal judgment based only on the state of your own mind. Self-evident only means "I believe this and to me it seems obvious," which says nothing about the facticity of that observation. In my view, it is an error to imagine that your state of mind can indicate anything about how "existence," as you call it, functions. That is one habit common in the non-dual conversation that puts me off entirely--the certainty and lack of epistemological modesty.

[@zepto5945]

@@RobertSaltzman I wouldn't say I believe it. Rather, it couldn't be any other way. Pure existence is the only thing that everything has in common. How many existences can there be? If there are 2, then there is still 1 existence in common between them. I don't speak for other people but It really is that simple for me. You don't need any "experience" or "state of mind" to know that. It's clear cut logic. I do agree there is a lot of immodesty in every circle. But there has to be a balance between immodest and choosing to stay in your bubble of ignorance. Both are close minded.

[@RobertSaltzman]

How many existences can there be?" More apparently than you are able to imagine. For you, everything is settled and you have the final answer that you regard as beyond question. I guess the self-centeredness of that view does not occur to you. No, your version of "logic" wins the day and no one can shake you from it.

[@alphabetpeople2902]

Non-duality is the most insane thing I've ever come across! "insane" doesn't even begin to cover it.

[@a13xdunlop]

I find it fascinating, I do not agree with a lot of it but it is fascinating, one of those subjects best approached in the right frame of mind though as I can imagine it leading some to despair. It is not a hopeful message.

[@Daneiladams555]

This is helping me to leave this non duality thing forever

[@user-gq6sf4si6j]

Dont worry, you never left duality

[@Daneiladams555]

@@user-gq6sf4si6j 😂

[@user-gq6sf4si6j]

@@Daneiladams555 ✌

[@macaroon147]

I just started being drawn to it. Did you ever feel that you experienced a sense of awakening? I did which is why I was drawn to it. But now I wonder if it was a psychological thing. But it felt like pure presence like I've never felt before. And it lasted a few days

[@user-gq6sf4si6j]

Q. What's Wrong With Nonduality? A. Nothing