When CATCH WRESTLING and JIU JITSU Meet

Here we have a wonderful glimpse into the time period when Jiu Jitsu and Catch Wrestling met, and how the came together to diss Cumberland and Westmorland Wrestling.
I can hear Walter spinning in his grave...
/ englishmartialarts

[@grimgoreironhide9985]

Kazushi Sakuraba was trained in England. He defeated the Gracies in Pride MMA.

[@regisblues]

LoL

[@perfectsplit5515]

And a BJJ black belt (Vanderlei Silva) beat Sakuraba And another BJJ black belt (Vitor Belfort) beat Vanderlei Silva And another BJJ black belt (Anderson Silva) beat Vitor Belfort And another BJJ black belt (Chris Weidman) beat Anderson Silva

[@perfectsplit5515]

And Rickson Gracie was trained in Brazil. He defeated Masakatsu Funaki in Coliseum 2000 MMA.

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

How mentally deficient are you?? Sakuraba has never been to England as far as I'm aware! Only two people from England he trained with were Billy Robinson and Roy Wood in Japan! This is backed up by Shane Rigby who spent time over in Japan with Roy Wood. And spent multiple times staying at Sakuraba's house whilst training in Japan. This clears up anything you just said which is false!

[@Justin-ke5qg]

Bjj has an awful history. No honour in multiple attackers with tools jumping a lone man who beat a Gracie. 😂😂

[@KeyserSoze23]

In the ring, they grapple, bodies intertwine, Catch wrestling's art, a battle so divine. Grit and technique, they dance upon the mat, Strength and skill, where warriors combat. Locks and holds, a symphony of pain, In this ancient art, champions attain.

[@100dfrost]

I was the thirteenth like. I am not superstitious, however I found it propitious to turn backwards in a counter-clockwise circle with my fingers crossed three times, and stomp my right foot three times. Good video, thanks.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

I think there is merit to limiting yourself in training on occasion. Removing your arms, as in C/W will force you to look at your footwork differently, change how you manage your center of gravity, etc. And of course, outside of combat, I think there is an important folk culture preservation to consider. However, that should be PART of one's combat training, challenging one's self by working within unusual limits, not the entirety of it. Fight Team!

[@thescholar-general5975]

I think that if the goal is self defense (whatever that means), then limiting the ruleset away from the arms is a step in the wrong direction. Although ironically you could make the same argument about wrestling being incomplete because it doesn’t include striking. I know that some older styles of wrestling did include strikes as well as Jiu jitsu, so one could argue these are best for “self defense” However, I think that it is easy to ignore the advantages of specialization. A limited ruleset reduces the repertoire of techniques which means that athletes spend more time focusing on fewer techniques which in turn means that the techniques are usually done better in a limited style that allows them. For example, Judo takedowns are completely legal in BJJ, but let’s be honest, most BJJ players are sloppy when it comes to getting the opponent to the ground. I am just an intermediate judoka, but I feel like a superstar when standing in BJJ class because they haven’t specialized on the takedowns enough to actually apply them. In Judo the opponent is not worried about getting their back taken, the prime directive is to not get thrown and learning to throw someone under this limited ruleset makes you much better more quickly than learning to throw in BJJ. The same is true of Muay Thai and boxing. Muay Thai is great, but we all know who punches better. And this comes from the specialization of limited rulesets. On a side note, would you consider making a video on the origins of specific techniques. Many of them are probably as old as time, but I have heard both catch wrestlers and jiu jitsu guys claim that it came from their respective arts. Even though wrestling is wrestling everywhere in history, the fact is that specific contexts allow for certain techniques to be developed while excluding the evolution of others. Thinking of Japan, it doesn’t make sense for Samurai to develop the triangle choke while learning to grapple in armor and the older form of japanese wrestling (sumo) has a ruleset which would exclude the development of the triangle. So when and where do you think this submission came from?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Nice idea!

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

Ok I've tried to keep silent but I've got several books by EJ Harrison. He got his submissions from Japanese Judo and Jiu Jitsu!

[@emperorjimmu9941]

It should be noted that the kodokan is the founding dojo of judo, not of jujutsu, however in the early 20th century, judo was still seen and often referred to as "Kano ryu jujutsu". And so the impression I have, is that your sources are talking about judo, and not koryu Japanese jujutsu (and certainly not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu)

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Very interesting indeed. My knowledge of grappling is quite limited (although we had quite a lot of cross-over with Jujitsu back when I was studying Silat with Jan De Jong) however I enjoy listening to this stuff! :)

[@lastmanstanding5423]

very cool... can't wait to hear more from the book

[@ynghuch]

At the start of the video when you said, “this” and then paused. My head automatically went, “this IS SPARTA !!!!”. 😂

[@EnglishMartialArts]

🤣

[@thelordofasswoopin]

I absolutely love the historical side of grappling, the knowledge I'm getting from this channel is incredible. Where would you recommend is best to look for books like this?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

If you want originals you can't beat abebooks.com

[@thelordofasswoopin]

@@EnglishMartialArts Legend 💪

[@judoandy3308]

All this makes me wish I hadn't sold my old copy of "Wrestling Intercollegiate and Olympic" back when eBay kicked off

[@MartinhoRamos1990]

Oz, you should make a video regarding the origins of all western styles of wrestling and how they differ. Greco Roman, Freestyle, Collegiate, Catch etc.

[@lsporter88]

All tricks, body parts, and techniques should be learned and utilized for knowledge and self defense. Great commentary.🤠👍🏾

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks!

[@aidanhughes2444]

I don’t wrestle much but want to get into it a bit more, so take my input with a pinch of salt But the backhold and collar and elbow or other fixed grip styles of usually folk wrestling to me seem very safe? For want of a better word, for just having fun and practicing wrestling skills they seem great… tbh they seem the best places to get HEMAists into wrestling, as opposed to catch and ju-jitsu which seem more about the fighting A lot of folk style wrestling seem to have rules that are more about sportsmanship, keeping communities together and safety then fighting, curious your take Also if you haven’t heard of it already “Hero of a thousand holds” is an amazing podcast that does deep dives on folk wrestling styles, it’s brilliant

[@WoodyHaroo]

I’ve always just assumed older styles limited themselfs to reduce injury. But still let young men go up against one an other to test themselves or even settle disputes. Id love to hear your take on this

[@matthewsteen9789]

Hi mate, I was wondering a bit more about Catch Wrestling. I appreciate in many of your videos, you mention how hard it is to find somewhere that does Catch. I wonder if there were any resources that you would recommend for further research. Thanks

[@EnglishMartialArts]

At rhe moment not a lot. But I'm working on it! If you go to catchascatchcan.org and sign up to the newsletter you'll be the first to hear of it!

[@matthewsteen9789]

@@EnglishMartialArts cheers.

[@fenrir2616]

Oz can you cover Irish Collar and Elbow please? Ive heard stories of it being used in fairs in ancoent times and one fellow had his back broken. Thanks as always

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'll see what I can come up with.

[@KrisVic91]

What do you think of modern barke knuckle boxing, such as bkfc and bkb? I want to learn a form of fignting. I need a hobby, I think wrestling would be best practically but I live in Nothern Ireland. Do you watch combat sports? Thanks Kris.

[@finnmiles7311]

Based on what Ive read there are some techs we can say with some confidence came into catch from jujitsu/Judo or vice versa and also even if x art actually created it. Obviously its hard to say a technique was first invented by X but we can say it was possibly invented/reinvented/ basically invented (i.e. in the sense it was created independently with no widely known alternate origin and pioneered) by x art in the modern era. So we can say with relative certainty without evidence to the contrary combined with evidence and use of the balance of probability that x came from x in the designated context. For instance the classic armbar (juji gatame for the weebs) we think of in modern sub grappling that is done from mount and guard is thought to have come from Japanese Jujitsu (not as sure about when performed from guard as it could be attributable to Judo but maybe) and passed on via Jujutsuka and Judoka. This is why irc it was reffered to as the Japanese armbar in catch to distinguish it from the armbar catch already had, which had more in common with a standing wrenching armbar but often performed on the ground I believe. Similarly it does seem that Catch might have invented the heel hook and/or at least passed it onto the other arts either directly or via hybrid descendants. Very early judo did have practioners that experimented with a very odd looking scissory thing I think from some top turtleish position that did technically "hook the heel" in terms of attacking similar ligaments but not sure if this ever became part of Judo as a system and it wasnt the heel hook really. The only basic sit back leg lock early Judo seemed to have beyond the off weird or less specific thing was the straight footlock, which was created independently in many systems it seems. Bjj and other surviving styles/derivitives of jj thus seem to have got the heel hook from catch (we do have fairly solid evidence of its precense in recorded history before catch via pankration in Greece but it was seemingly largely or entirely reinvented by Catch (or at least Lancashire Wrestling as a sort of proto catch but thats less clear). The triangle from guard (sankaku jime again for the weebs in the back) however does seem to have come from Judo originally and spread to catch either directly or via bjj. On a tangent we also know that today the kneebar comes from Sambo (itself a derivitive of Judo, Freestyle Wrestling, slavic/steppe folk styles of wrestling (nogi/gi and belt wrestling) with some catch thrown in. From here it spread to bjj, catch and other arts.

[@joshuathomson8925]

I don't remember if I've asked you this before, but are there any works that deal purely with Lancashire style wrestling?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Not That I have seen. But that could just mean I haven't found them yet!

[@tapioperala3010]

I'll wrestle the KZbin algorithm here

[@fredazcarate4818]

Sir I am in complete agreement with the gentleman; however, though the other styles may be less effective in manly combat. This imperfection does mean that said styles are useless. Nay in sport they build discipline and has carry over the to Catch Wrestling. So its efficacy is still useful training. This is my humble opinion on the matter at hand. I bid you farewell. And God bless you and family Sir!

[@Hobbofett]

Oz in a hat 🤯.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It happens, mainly when my hair is ridiculous and desperately needs cutting.

[@Hobbofett]

@@EnglishMartialArts pure logic , I also do this .

[@Stephen_Curtin]

How dare you sir... repeat anything that besmirches the reputation of the gentlemanly Art of Cumberland and Westmoreland Wrestling. If you have even a shred of decency in you then you'll remove this video at once. Jokes aside I'll take a look and see if I can't give you an exact year of publication for that book. FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'd appreciate that!

[@Stephen_Curtin]

@@EnglishMartialArts from what I can tell it was indeed published in 1934.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@Stephen_Curtin Marvelous! I thought it probably was, but there and thereabouts is good enough for this video.

[@libertyfreedom380]

🤘🤘🤘

[@kevinlobos5519]

F YEA FIGHT TEAM

[@rafaelbabar3494]

I’m sure they’d be more links with Indian and Turkish (Ottoman) wrestling. Why isn’t this as well documented?

[@rafaelbabar3494]

@@antiantifa886 Indian wrestling predates Greek wrestling and was combat based. The ground work in Indian wrestling was introduced by theArabs and as far as I’m aware had like bjj today an open culture when it came to incorporating other systems. It just seems funny that the British invaded (and stole from) India during the 18th century then wrestling is suddenly popularised soon afterwards in England. Also despite his huge contract and achievements in wrestling in the 20 century none in the Catch scene ever seems to mention the Great Gama. Also look at the names and origins of many core movements such as Indian walking etc.

[@aidanhughes2444]

I’ve seen wrestling and physical culture books (in English at least) mostly from the 1950s, not sure if this means there aren’t many written before that? But with such a long literary tradition shortly there are loads of Indian wresting manuals that just haven’t been well looked at?

[@alger8181]

When the Master of Sun style Xingyi told his friend, a Master of Bagua, that he could not defend his attack, his friend said (adlibbing here) "Let's go out back." When the Master of Xingyi struck, the Master of Bagua avoided the strike. After talking with his Bagua friend, Master Sun adjusted Xingyi. The Bagua avoidance was then negated. Tiger style Kung Fu only works if one has never encountered Tiger style Kung Fu. Limiting your options in a fight limits your survival of a fight.

[@judoandy3308]

You should read up on Ad Santell. I believe he was a wrestler of German origin and claimed to be world Judo champion. Many Japanese fighters took him on and lost, so he just kept saying he was the champ.

[@judoandy3308]

Correcting myself. He did have at least one loss to a Japanese fighter.

[@fredazcarate4818]

Sir I am in complete agreement with the gentleman; however, though the other styles may be less effective in manly combat. This imperfection does not mean that said styles are useless. Nay in sport they build discipline and has carry over the to Catch Wrestling. So its efficacy is still useful in training. This is my humble opinion on the matter at hand. I bid you farewell. And God bless you and family Sir!