When They Know Fans Won't Like It, But They Do It Anyway

[@realjesterbell]

I have important things to say about audiences at the end if you say tuned :) Edit: my Mr beast praise did not age quiet so well…

[@DanielBMaximoff]

To be fair, Mark Hamill helped destroy SW. Which is ironic because of the HQ scenario, lol

[@arbhall7572]

The audience is the metric for success. IF there is no audience, there is no success. Less audience, less success. The problem is that the "writers" in hollywood want to be famous. They are not. Nor do they have the actual talent, it takes to achieve that success. The ones that actually do? The studio will not pay, they arent paying anyone, theres a reason the majority of releases these days are remakes, reboots and sequels. The studios are no longer paying royalties. So they they are not attracting talent with crumbs. Hence. The sorry state of modern hollywood writers and why it will not be getting better until the current framework of the studios is annihilated.

[@philingrouille7198]

Step 1: Ruin a character/property that fans have loved for years Step 2: Call the fans who speak out about it "ists" for not liking it Step 3: Call everyone an "ist" when your product bombs Step 4: Double down and blame everyone else but yourself Step 5: Fail upwards and repeat your mistake.

[@collegerebel]

You forgot about calling fans "phobes".

[@timymax]

Did anybody else read this in Gru's voice

[@kohaiame2691]

​@@timymaxGru isn't that evil.

[@sissysovereign1294]

And bigots

[@SunlightGwyn]

The companies that hire these activists are the most to blame. The people that continue to consume this garbage are the second most to blame.

[@kloassie]

When 'actors' don't wanna act but just be themselves on stage 😑

[@TaoScribble]

Ncuti immediately comes to mind.

[@dearthditch]

Helps to nail the producer 😅

[@tarotreadingsbysteven8545]

People always miss the metaphor that Harley Quinn is. She's literally a metaphor for how even if you're smart, powerful and accomplished you can STILL fall victim to an abuser especially if you are codependent/seeking validation from others.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

👏

[@goodfellow9607]

Michael Scott, he strikes the table and gives thanks.

[@hope-cat4894]

She's also a good example of Hybristophilia: a paraphilia involving sexual interest in and attraction to those who commit crimes. She goes from being in love with the Joker to Poison Ivy, and we're supposed to act like she's a role model? She went from dating a clown killer to dating an eco-terrorist! The same way there are women who write letters to serial killers, Harley is like those women too.

[@jordanpickthall0619]

Exactly. A cautionary tale. It’s what made old school Harley so compelling.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

@@jordanpickthall0619 exactly

[@dereklopez9060]

Disney: ( shoveling crappy stories to the fans ). Fans: ( shoveling back ). Disney: Help! Racism! Misogyny!

[@jodi2847]

​​@dsdassaNo need to acknowledge a fringe minority of trolls when the overwhelming majority are calling out bad writing.

[@SageTigerStar]

@dsdassa There's literally a culture of people who will blatantly troll these companies and each other for basically anything. If someone cries "RACIST!", there's inevitably going to be people out there who push buttons, posting racist things not because they ARE racist, but because it'll get reactions out of the creators and their supporters...and then the creator/supporters are like "SEE!? WE TOLD YOU THERE'S RACISTS OUT THERE! LOOK AT THE RACISM!" while the trolls are laughing at them for taking it seriously.

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

​@dsdassa A loud minority of assholes but it doesn't represent the whole fan base.

[@coda7994]

​@dsdassa that's being used to deflect normal criticism. They exist, but they are not the majority of the general audience. Most of us aren't happy with the level of storytelling and production value, we don't have any issue with diversity. A lot of us, myself included, actively vote and donate to progressive causes. It's okay to be progressive and also not like a piece of entertainment.

[@jayridglyn8580]

​@dsdassadumb way to make a point. When everyone hates a thing...

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Literally, She-Hulk show. I don't understand this idea of doing something that will not only piss people off but also push them away. Ensuring they won't support you in the future. It makes no sense. Do they think we'll just keep watching everything they put out regardless?

[@shteebo]

This type of thing happens when people decide to live in "my reality" rather than actual reality. In recent years, our culture has been encouraging this. It never ends well.

[@arjo321]

Because they know a lot of people will also hate-watch things they don't like, so they make it intentionally bad and make fans feel like they're being betrayed. That's why shows like Velma performed really well, because lots of reviewers were shitting on it, thus giving it a ton of attention; pushing everyone to watch it to see how bad it is, etc. Buuut eventually that won't work anymore obviously because audiences catch on.

[@vernonhampton5863]

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@arjo321 well, with Velma they greenlit 2 seasons from the get go

[@celestialsoldier622]

@@arjo321 Hate Watching doesn't support the series the way people think it does. Just A Robot mad a video debunking it. Velma season 2 was greenlit before season 1 was released.

[@KrytoRift]

None of us understand harleys infatuation with the joker. But that's the fucking point

[@mstr293]

Exactly! The whole point of their relationship is to mirror toxic relations and even dangerous ones that happen in real life. Harley, while at a lesser extent than Joker, still has done irreversible crimes throughout canon. Yet some fandom still feel the need to make her more “relatable”.

[@NaughtyJuri]

Some of us do because both are crazy psychotic clowns that’s why I love them

[@Docjj0925]

The biggest enemy of any hero is the writer.

[@Devilsblight86]

Like what Spider-Man is going through right now in comics. Writers HATE him.

[@alexandergapour1253]

To be fair that stuff has happened to spiderman since the beginning

[@Docjj0925]

@alexandergapour1253 Seriously, Does every spider man writer have to do these horrible things to him? I know he'd sacrifice a lot, but that doesn't mean he has to. Like someone might take a bullet for someone else. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

[@Docjj0925]

​@Devilsblight86 Yeah, it's almost a requirement. I feel, but you have to make spider man miserable. I think that's why I like reading the new ultimate stuff. I just hope it doesn't turn into spider man must suffer

[@Butterfly-ql4pg]

Looks like modern entertainment finally found something they love more than money: pissing off fans 😁

[@bashamd96]

​@gloriathomas3245 It was shit on instead of praised, so it wasn't relevant until people tried normalizing it in modern times

[@gammasmash1924]

Call me crazy, but I think their business model might have a couple of flaws.

[@onlyonestarwarsfan5337]

When Mark Hamill tells Rian Johnson “we need to think about the fans!”; he’s not necessarily saying “we can’t do what you want, we need to do what the fans want.” He’s saying “dude, there are a LOT of people who will absolutely detest what it is you’re doing here. I suggest you tread with more caution.” If I ever had the opportunity and privilege to write+direct a Star Wars film, I surely hope I would be able to put my own ego aside and listen to a man who’s been there since the beginning.

[@cognitoobscurus7168]

Mark Hamill’s courage, and his investment in both Luke as a character and in Star Wars fans was so admirable. When he realized he couldn’t break through Johnson’s hubris, he did his best to warn and prepare fans. And then JJ Abrams came back and instead of proving his talent by accepting what Johnson had done, working with it, and making a third act that tied the trilogy together so beautifully that all fans of the first two films could come together and celebrate the fantastic new trilogy, we got THE RISE OF SKYWALKER: a temper tantrum about the way a different director handled the series that YOU CHOSE to walk away from. The whole fiasco was shameful and embarrassing. Like, if this is the level of talent and professionalism in Hollywood, maybe we should stop investing hundreds of millions of dollars in these movies.

[@Jazzdumpling]

I agree 100%. As crazy as it sounds, Star Wars was destroyed because the studio that owned the IP gave creative control to a massive troll. The Last Jedi was gleefully antagonistic, nihilistic, nonsensical and intentionally destructive. The franchise has been in a death spiral since that film was released, and a once joyful, enthusiastic and inclusive global fan base has become bitter, divisive and ‘toxic’. We are accused of racism, misogyny, bigotry and hatred, just for expressing our disappointment and dislike of terrible storytelling. This kind of ‘creative strategy’ has created nothing other than needles division and petty conflict; it actually does damage in the real world. It’s unforgivable. Anyway. Have a nice day!

[@PaolaLeija-xk6uz]

Totally agree. The Last Jedi BROKE my heart. Seeing Luke for the first time after decades, was like seeing a friend you didnt think you will ever see again. At least I was hoping for them to tell me he had a family a home or something. I hate that the director said we shoudn't look up to heroes and put them on a pedestal and I'm like.... what?! We always knew Luke was not perfect but he never gave up. He work for his legacy unlike Rey the Golden Girl who everything she owns was handed to her, and who Rian and J.J. are forcing us to look up to. And no, I will NOT see her upcoming movie, I don't want to see that character ever AGAIN.

[@eon001]

"You can't fight the audience" YES!!!! That perfectly sums it up.

[@snowbunnie1113]

It’s all just vanity. Everyone wants to make their mark on a franchise, but when they don’t understand/care about the world or characters, they end up turning them into something nobody likes. But they can’t admit they were wrong because the changes they made were “their mark in the character’s history” and it would mean discrediting/erasure their own work.

[@kingleech16]

It’s well-nigh universal. No one is ever willing to say “I effed up.”

[@JLW2490]

I feel this sums up comic book writers.

[@teddysama5745]

I loved magneto saying, I am trying to be better. Don’t make me let you down. I got goosebumps hearing him say that

[@harleybtasfan90s]

The She-Hulk show is a great example of everything you're saying here. Creators should listen to their audience. That's the point! When it comes to Harley, I can't take her looks in those movies to be frank with you and after seeing what she said in the interview, it's clear that this is another example of Hollywood making what they want instead of the people.

[@thedeepfriar745]

The Bayonetta fanbase: for some reason the “fanbase” shipped Bayonetta and her coven sister Jeanne together even though it was never hinted at all that their relationship was remotely romantic. And in Bayonetta 3 she ends up with Luca( a man she had been flirting with for three games) and has a daughter. The online forums threw an absolute hissy fit.

[@Romancefantasy]

Some people need to destroy beautiful things if they cannot control them

[@azureascendant994]

When it comes to Nightcrawler's parents, Mystique and Azazel... I must say... In a twisted way Azazel is the better parent. Devil man comes in with a plan for the future of his children as magical batteries for a hell portal, this is some serious parental dedication. Mystique just messed around on her sterile husband with a red dude with the perception of putting the unusual child off as her husband's. Then when the blue child is born she just throws him down a waterfall. If Nightcrawler has any further retcon origin stories it should be without Mystique's involvement or motherhood.

[@lisaoreilly8380]

Funny you should say that, because Azazel himself was an elaborate retcon. Nightcrawler's original bio-dad was an unseen and unnamed Bavarian Count that Mystique married to leech off of and then murdered him when he saw her real form after giving birth to Kurt. And then she literally threw newborn Kurt to his death because he was worthless to her. But yeah, at least Azazel ...likes and/or respects Kurt? Kind of? But Mystique has been the quintessential evil, selfish, psycho parent from the very start. Just ask all the sons she's abandoned. Or how she still tries to control her adopted daughter Rogue's life from time to time _(and Rogue is the one she likes)._

[@azureascendant994]

@@lisaoreilly8380 fr, damn right.

[@valentecarrillo4259]

I didn't mind Mystique and Destiny being a married couple but they didn't need to retcon Nightcrawler dad Azazel.

[@azureascendant994]

@@valentecarrillo4259 Actually they just added nonsense that didn't need to be there. Mystique changes her physical shape and DNA to mimic Azazel during the baby making. This makes Azazel still Nightcrawler's father cuz of DNA. Now they added this easily dismissed aspect of Azazel becoming a father without his involvement. It's creepy almost like molestation in a way.

[@TheJimSkipper]

I don’t think I have heard anyone expressed as perfectly as you have. “Don’t fight your audience!”

[@MightyMarven]

Great video. I also hate it when directors or writers smugly admit they haven't watched or read the source material. Or when producers like Kathleen Kennedy confidently tell the creative team to avoid the source material altogether, because it would compromise their artistic vision or something? Understanding the original work is crucial to creating a movie or show that isn't disappointing.

[@writingwithdragons]

Did Margot not look into Harley Quinn before taking the role? If playing a character like Harley bothered her so much, she should have just passed on the role in the first place.

[@hope-cat4894]

It seems like a lot of actors and writers don't read the comics or even watch the cartoons.

[@valentecarrillo4259]

Naming this movie Birds of Prey was just random. I guess they named it Birds of Prey because it had Black Canary and Huntress. But it was nothing like the comics books at all. And Black canary was nothing like her comic book character at all. Also Barbara was Part of Birds of Prey comics when she became Oracle. Maybe day we will get a proper Birds of prey movie with Barbara Gordon either as batgirl or Oracle in James Gunn DCU.

[@wd3987]

Have you read the Harley Comics? That is Comic Harley from her own series.

[@punchbeard]

I feel like working with Jared Leto definitely had an impact on Margot Robbie not wanting to do anymore Joker content lol

[@hope-cat4894]

The solution to that should have been recasting Jared Leto instead of completely altering Harley as a character. It's not like he's anyone's favorite version of the Joker.

[@xanderg.1070]

Another example of this kinda mentality is with the production of Kung Fu Panda 4. If you read what happened behind the scenes there was a lot of disagreement between the directors and the crew behind the movie. Especially with the pov of the co director of the movie who was treated very poorly by her fellow directors and the crew because of the fact she was a newbie in the film industry. In her interviews, she explains how certain things in the movie wouldn’t work or doesn’t make sense like bringing Tai Lung, Lord Shen, m and General Kai back, giving Shifu an actual role and character development in the movie, and the Characterization of Zhen and the Chameleon. But the rest of the team ignored her. Not only that, but she knew that the audience wanted a story that was as serious as the first two films, but her co director and the executives at Dreamworks decided not to do that even when they knew fans would want it. And I genuinely feel sorry for her. She was one of the few people who worked on the movie that actually cared about the project and knew what the KFP fans and audiences wanted to make the film very special but the rest of the crew treated her very poorly and treated the film as nothing but a simple way to earn a quick buck.

[@ECKohns]

I can understand taking risks and not just doing fan service. But when said decision turns out to be bad and they double-down and claim that people who don’t think it’s good are bad, that’s where it becomes an issue.

[@Rom2814SK]

Was just having a similar conversation with a fellow nerd with regard to MCU. From the earliest MCU films there were little nods, almost love letters to the fans. They had so many cool moments that we left the theater raving about, things I was pleasantly shocked to see as a fan of the comics since I was a kid in the 70's. Teasing Cap saying, "Avengers assemble" and then eventually delivering it on a way that was possibly the most exciting/emotional experience I've had in a movie since the Empire Strikes Back. Then, post Endgame, it's become an exercise in tearing things down that we loved instead of delivering on them. Giving us stuff that activist filmmakers want, rather than what the audience wants. At this point I dread hearing a beloved property is being adapted (Rings of Power, Wheel of Time, etc.) because I KNOW the creators of that new stuff do not love or respect the original - they want to use its popularity but deconstruct and destroy things that made it a beloved property.

[@cdavid0715]

I think the main enablers of this are editors and producers letting the writers and directors get away with everything. Some of the most succesful projects have been a product of directors, writers and editors/producers working in tandom, just look how George Lucas managed to make great movies with the original trilogy and compare it to how disappointed the sequels are/were, he had more freedom for the latter

[@KRobinson-ko1ne]

You mean the prequels and this whole Star Wars being saved in the edit narrative is pure BS First of all it’s a transparent attempt to discredit George for his own story and work Second, it ignores the fact that the editing process was supervised by George and even manually operated at times And third, what difference would it really make? This implies that the editors somehow rewrote the story from scratch behind his back and apparently conjured up new footage Just watch Nerdnonymous “Star Wars Was Saved in the Edit but not really”

[@Winslow_Leach_49999]

Lady Gaga is about to make her Harley fan-fiction singing along to popular songs. I have a feeling we are about to get another Margot scenario lol

[@DisabledDoll]

9:18 I think WB was scared to touch Harley and joker cuz it would’ve been developing right when Me Too hit but it was actually the perfect thing to cover in that time

[@lucymoody4927]

This is fast becoming one of my favorite commentary channels

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

That's the gripe I have with Margot. Bop was literally her vanity project. This interview really shows how characters can be ruined because it's clearly not about the fans. Idk why that would even be a goal. In terms of Margot, I don't like SS and I really hated BOP way more. I liked her in 2021 TSS but honestly, it was mostly because they finally gave her an accurate coustume😂her performance as "new 52" Harley is great but it's not the actual *Harley Quinn* uk

[@Harleyxjokerforever]

Personally I think "I, Tanya" was her vanity project Birds of Prey felt her cashing in on a trend.

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

​@@HarleyxjokerforeverI actually thought she was really good as Tonya. There, she was playing an actual person. With Birds Of Prey, it was a fictional character that was nothing like that character

[@devildham]

The irony of Margot Robbie's take on Harley Quinn is that her getting away from the Joker actually IS a major part of her character arc, but her lack of understanding about the character meant that she waaay jumped the gun and in the process, she ruined the character's arc, a potential franchise and damaged her own brand. Too much creative control for someone who fundamentally doesn't get the source material. (Yes, Zac....I'm looking at you too buddy)

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

@@devildham agreed. Plus they went straight to new 52 Harley without establishing her original origin story first

[@Brotherofthe4thCompany]

Preach

[@_dragonstorm_2635]

They use division as a means to get free publicity. People love drama and will try to be apart of drama. Even if the drama has nothing to do with them or their interests. The thing is division works and could be a good thing. The whole Kong vs Godzilla was a perfect example of this. People would not shut up for weeks about who would actually win in a fight. Or take for instance the death of a main character. People will spend months arguing about whether or not they should have died. The only issue when it comes to the division companies like Disney are fomenting is that they are using hateful real world actions to divide the audience. Rather than strictly plot driven reasons. Instead of creating a healthy discussion between fans. They are creating a scenario where the extremes of the political spectrum are actively tearing the community of fans apart.

[@RenoReborn]

They've intentionally upset the audience enough times at this point to know that random ass people will take it too far and start issuing death threats over your poor narrative choices, talk about hostile work environments, your boss is literally trying to throw you to the twitter wolves while he sits back and watches the chaos unfold

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

That's why I said more people need to call out Bob Iger and Bob Chapek nothing at Disney gets approved without them

[@stackels97]

Margot also didn't play Barbie as Barbie either. I'm still trying to figure out what about that film had anything to do with the Character of Barbie at all. The whole thing felt like a slew of social media posts strung together

[@cognitoobscurus7168]

Thank you! It was so crazy to me. That movie doesn’t even get its own thesis right. It actively mocks women for… being pregnant, being mentally divergent or just thinking differently, or choosing comfort over brutality. It mocks men for being… most of all, multiple times… FEMININE!! Like, WTH?! And then its resolution when the apparently homeless, absolutely powerless Kens ask, “Now that you’ve taken over again and restored your matriarchal status quo, could we maybe please have like ONE representative or Justice on the Supreme Court or something, Queen President?” “Um… No.” Just… what? So what was the point of highlighting that the Kens were homeless and powerless to the point that they could be frustrated and confused and accidentally become cute, harmless fascists? Is the message that sexism to the point of institutional homelessness and joblessness is good as long as it’s matriarchal? I just do not understand how or why that movie was so popular and made so much money. It still confuses and surprises me that a marketing campaign could be that effective.

[@stackels97]

@@cognitoobscurus7168 totally and what has any of that got to do with that specific toy? It's an entirely unrelated attempt at forced ideology and fake 'depth' being told under the guise of a recognisable IP. Comparably, The Lego movie was so much more connected to LEGO in its storytelling.

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

Yeah the Barbie movie was just a cheap way for the writer to say "Well you don't like it when it's done to you huh?" But they failed to identify what the IT was.

[@LaBellesGrace]

Absolutely, yes. Other than throw away cameos from old dolls/fashions the designers tried to sprinkle in for the sake of making the viewer nostalgic, literally the only thing that connects that movie to the actual doll and her creator is the names used. Take away the Barbie branding and names, and what is the movie *actually made for* ? As a Barbie fan, nothing appeals to me in the movie besides feeling total frustration. It makes it worse knowing Margot hired Greta, only for the latter to say in an interview when asked “what particular story inspired you for the character?” She simply laughs and says that Barbie, a doll that has had multiple different media presence in the past 64 years before this interview, said that there was absolutely no story to Barbie prior; essentially implying Barbie was a Mary-Jane/blank slate before *her* movie. Uh, what? The animated VHS movies from the 80s, the CGI movies from the 2000s and onwards, the many many books and novelisations since ‘59, stories from the back of a dolls box; literally anything? Someone clearly didn’t do her homework.

[@hope-cat4894]

That movie was such a bad Barbie movie that they pretended that Mattel was run by only men when there's actually women on the board in real life. That's how dumb their messaging was. 😑 They didn't even acknowledge that Barbie has a family! Where were her sisters, Skipper and Kelly? Why was the world only populated with Barbies and Kens when we know the toy line has more characters than that? 🙃

[@AcePayne-rk5oj]

So Margot Robbie shouldn't have picked Harley, Quinn And it seems like Margot Robbie can't act to me.

[@attilamarics3374]

She cant act and thought she is smart, because people were there simping.

[@biguy617]

She did her best. She was doing what the directors told her to

[@biguy617]

Maybe if her Joker wasn’t Jared Leto things would be better

[@gooshy8312]

I quite enjoyed Robbie's Quinn, but I'm not invested in any earlier versions. And I agree Lehto's Joker didn't help. I was always thinking, "Please, just a bullet in his head and move on."

[@aurahoneydew9607]

Yeah all she brought to the character was hotness, which makes it weirder they let her stop that since what else is she bringing aside from sandbags she chose Birds of prey because she feared being upstaged in Gotham City sirens and Joker vs Harley pitch movies

[@Tenshii_Artii]

The fact that I’m still confused to this a day as to why Magneto and Rogue should have happened in the first place? I always kept saying that if these people so badly wanted to go throw in a reference to Savage Land or something, it should have been purely a professional Teacher and Student dynamic between them. But Rogue obviously had to leave Magneto’s mentorship, because she soon realized he was actually kinda unstable, and she did not want that. I totally did not want to see a Jasmine X Jafar situation again.

[@The-X-Territory]

The audience is always right. You never fuck with them, you give them what they want. That’s how you get paid, that’s how you entertain them, that’s your whole job as a writer.

[@Cheattoe]

Late to the party but she just said Star Wars twice im on time!

[@dr.medieval1131]

Apathy is the best revenge. No money, views, or interest from me.

[@DressMeUpScotty]

A big problem is: these film makers and writers view these movies as JUST art so they think they can do whatever they want to express themselves. But movies, especially ones within big preexisting successful franchises, are products FIRST, THEN art. To have a successful product, you have to understand your costumer and deliver the product they want to consume. It’s art secondary. If these writers and film makers are so hell bent on making subversive art, they should focus on making original indie works where exploring those things aren’t economically disastrous (and are actually more receptive in those circles).

[@LaBellesGrace]

Ha, Robbie did exactly the same thing with Barbie (coming from a mega Barbie fan btw). I think she has a pattern and the Australian rep in me is so sad 🥲

[@GGBlaster]

Imagine if Ian McDiarmid decided he didn’t like how Palpatine was the bad guy and decided to change that. We would’ve missed out on one of if not the most iconic villain in cinema.

[@chazmarepps4]

Egotistic thinking is a real deadly form of self-destruction when you let the temptation of power overtake you. They don't want to be told the truth, when they are clearly in the wrong. The powerful will continue on this path until they will loose Everything. Its a cycle that they don't wants to break out of. Irony is life's favorite comedy.

[@BruceWayne-pf5eb]

Narcissistic nonesense on the part of actors is nothing new. Actually listening to them and tanking movie's and shows is. Well done with this analysis 👏

[@rogerroger9952]

There's definitely something to be said about making art for yourself and only yourself because writing for an audience usually goes poorly, and it's impossible to please everyone, but making art that makes *you* happy should always be your #1 priority. And, because you like it, it won't bother you if the audience doesn't. It's not narcissistic to not care if something isn't massively appealed. HOWEVER, if you are handed an IP that *already has a fan base* it is BEYOND disrespectful to the original creator of that IP and the fans to try and turn the story and characters into something completely different for your own personal reasons. Make art you like first and foremost, but don't destroy someone else's art to do it. If you don't like a character/story don't involve yourself with it when there are millions of artists out there who would kill for it. Of course, I am a *little* more sympathetic for co-opting reboots and remakes in the current entertainment climate, but that's only because original ideas aren't allowed anymore, so some artists rebel against the system a bit by turning their reboot/remake/branded thing into a story they actually wanted to tell. That said: if it were *my* characters and stories getting shit-on and co-opted and misrepresented I'd be pissed because it's still massively disrespectful to the original artist to do this shit.

[@cognitoobscurus7168]

I loved reading this comment so much that a simple “like” wasn’t good enough. Very well said!

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

It's become so prevalent that their attempts of raging against the system are actually supporting the status quo because to call people bigots is what everyone does now.

[@kbar4462]

I think a lot of the egotism is tied to severe disconnect with reality. They see social media react overly positive or extremely vitriolic, and view it as successful engagement. Whereas in reality, I think the vast majority of viewers just stop watching/engaging and never come back. Myself and the vast majority of star wars fans I know just completely tuned out and haven't watched any of the new stuff. Just catch the old ones when they air on tv on the weekends lol

[@jakebream2934]

Jester your video has perfectly explained what I’ve been saying to my family for years when I tell them. The corporations don’t like the fans

[@kasunex1772]

It's really wild that anyone behind the scenes took Margo Robbie seriously on Harley after Robbie admitted she didn't get the core driving force behind Harley's character.

[@diemes5463]

These people making entertainment need to realize they're not artists creating art, they're craftsman creating products. That's not a slight against either, but a recognition that they produce different things. Art doesn't need to sell, products do. Unfortunately, these entertainment company execs are too high up to really feel the effects for their failure in real time. It's the workers, retail stores and the theatres that have to pay.

[@skytowergnome4664]

The movie version of Land of the Lost compared to the original show comes to mind.

[@madestmadhatter]

To be clear, people don't want Harley and Joker in a lovey dovey relationship... well some do, but they're wrong. We want that broken relationship, we want that unhealthy connection where Harley is blinded to all the messed up stuff Joker is doing and Joker is flagrantly manipulating her emotions. Harley is tough, and smart, and just a little bit unhinged. She spent years pursuing her doctorate and making a place for herself in the boys club of academia. She's good at her job, but she's working at Arkahm, she receives little to no positive feed back from anyone. She needs support the same as anyone, but recieves none from her family, her colleagues, or the public at large, and Joker is able to find that need and crawl inside. He makes her feel special, like she can connect with him on a level no one else was able, then present himself as supportive and caring, making her feel heard after a life time of listening to others, only to start withdrawing his attention and affection making her want to act out in more and more dramatic ways to get his attention. Maybe at first it's contraband, then she aids him in an escape, then she drives a get away car, then she full on plots crimes for him. He'll ignore her, and abuse her, and just before she breaks down he'll give her a present, or blow up her former boss's office after she tells him how he took credit for a paper she wrote. He doesn't care about her, you're not supposed to think they've got a strong relationship, Joker is a user, and Harley is so confident in her ability that she can't see she's being used.

[@neb2504]

The one thing I’ll say in Margot Robbie’s defense is she had to figure out why her character was obsessed with Jared Leto.

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

It's in Harley's character lol

[@DavidFrancis24824]

Since u talked about making your audience happy, I just wanted to add that I really like your videos. I found your channel during all this Acolyte craziness and I've been watching u ever since. U seem to have the knack for tapping into the cultural zeitgeist and then taking the emotions of thousands of fans/people and putting those into words for your videos. I think I said that correctly. Haha. Its been a long day. Anyways, you're doing what multi-million dollar entertainment corporations cannot seem to do. Basically... you're killing it!

[@InspectorWhoReacts]

If a restaurant makes a terrible meal or change something that is beloved and popular into something that a vast majority of it customers doesn't like, blaming the customers for your decisions of not giving them what they love is going to get your restaurant canned.

[@havocstormbringer1503]

Well said. A business should want their creations to appeal to the largest amount of people. If an artist want to make controversial art they should do it with donor money or their own dime.

[@SammaclauseGamgee]

I dont know much about the behind the scenes of Dune, but I think the peoplr who made pt 1&2 were those few people in Hollywood who knew what people wanted and went anoe and beyond their expectations. They knew people wanted Dune, so they made Dune look and sound amazing, and made it two parts so they didnt have to cut big parts of the book out. Need more of that these days.

[@Sammo212]

I feel like most of these creators and actors/actresses is that they look at the source material as something lesser and that they will "fix it" and fans will come around and think what they did is better. I think this is part of why someone like Feige calls the MCU "universe 616".

[@Napping-dragon]

Honestly, I never really minded Harley going into the hero game at least the morally Gray style. I like her in the comic books when she started being part of the bat family, but I think that eventually spiraled off into something I don’t even like anymore as much as I love Harley and the joker and trust me I do Harley and Joker fan, it is cool to see her on her own

[@Brittanysplittany]

Love your videos, you are always so insightful Jester! Reminds me of what you’ve said before, “depicting is not promoting.” Hopefully Hollywood realizes this mistake and starts making entertaining things again!

[@PokemonkaDub]

As much as I love Infinity War - that was what ruined the movie industry, like it was the tipping point. The moment where people praised "subverting the expectations" in that film and the hollywood just decided to take it waaaay too much to heart. Same goes for Thanos as a "villain we can get behind" so now we are not allowed to have villains just beeing... well villains!

[@deathbysloth]

Soooo Margo Robbie plays a character who had previously been in an established relationship for decades, one beloved by the fans, and because of her personal feelings and politics ends up changing the character to reject that relationship in favor of a modern feminist "self-liberation" direction? Huh. Did anyone else get deja vu?

[@michaellane5381]

A reality check for Hollywood: ACD famously hated Sherlock Holmes towards the end... It did not work out for him at that point, the works where he altered or tried to remedy his distaste were ignored by most follow up media or indeed HAD to be to reinvent the franchise. Certain constants just cannot be altered even by the author to keep success attached to an IP.

[@hamiltoncox7651]

There is a mentality in academia that the "great artists" subvert expectations and defy the status quo. Conversely, not being true to your vision is "selling out". This is fine if you are creating your own art, but taking someone else's art and subverting it - specially a beloved I p - is narcissistic and juvenile...and counterproductive. Ryan Johnson is a case of arrested development. He acts like an undergraduate lit major.

[@alexman378]

Expectations should only be subverted if what you’re about to deliver is actually a lot better than what people expected.

[@koen8993]

​@@alexman378Ah, but here's the thing. The ones doing this actually believe they are delivering something better. Mostly because they don't believe in the classic honest heroism that spawned all these franchises. Therefore, subverting heroism is always better in their minds, no matter how clunky or however it sours the previous entries in the franchise.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

The problem is that when "subverting expectations" is the norm then _not_ subverting them is what's subversive. You can't continually "deconstruct" something. Once it's deconstructed that's it.

[@Foggfjw]

bullshit. The movie was bad that's it. If it was better, his ideas would have been interesting.

[@DisabledDoll]

12:37 one good thing about this was just getting to see Mark give that performance. He sold it. He should be given more credit as an actor

[@Siosiyep]

So true.! You don't serve your audiance Cat poop and bong water when they want steak and wine. Then be confused when the they don't like it. Great video👍keep up the fight ☮️

[@alanviniciuswanderleytavar4399]

When I saw Ki-Adi-Mundi there was no way it wasn't on purpose, at that moment I knew that the writers and Headland weren't just dumb and incompetent, they were insulting us

[@DaddyDynastic]

It's similar to how Bruce Tim creates what I think are some of the best Batman stories ever written but he can't get away from the BruceXBarbara nonsense to the point where it infects just about every Batman thing he touches despite the fact no one has ever liked it, As a matter of fact I think it would be generous to say people even barely tolerated it because all it does is make Bruce look like a worse person

[@cjleehaze]

I just don’t understand why they make the wrong choice every single time and expect people to like it. Then they start blaming certain people for some reason for not liking it. Well maybe if they didn’t add such bullshit it wouldn’t be hated.

[@samueltitone5683]

Can we all agree this is the single stupidest marketing tactic of the 2020s?

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

Definitely😂💯

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

But it's ok because they got consultancy groups to blame them out of the money they'll lose.

[@FlashGordonRox69]

Can we all agree unanimously that the 2020s is the worst decade in history, were in the worst era since the great depression

[@DadJokeSamurai]

Wall of text incoming: I saw a lot of Rian Johnson's attitude during the year I spent as an art major during my first year of college oh so many moons ago. He believes he's an artist, so to him, the ultimate form of his expression is the desire to create a powerful and significant piece of art. It's why he doesn't care whether people love or hate his movie, just that they have passion about it. However, because he is a hack, instead of creating a new and amazing piece of art that polarizes audiences (Think Christopher Nolan's Tenet.) He instead chose to make controversial and world shattering changes to something that people already felt very strongly about. He couldn't lose, really. Either people would love his 'fresh bold take' on the new direction of Star Wars, or they'd revile his destruction of something that meant a great deal to them. Either way, he got his fix as a visionary auteur that everyone was discussing. He just did so, to paraphrase Ian Malcolm, by standing on the shoulders of giants then patting himself on the back for reaching so high. Incidentally, Nolan is a fantastic example of a director who treated a beloved IP with care and the respect it deserved, at least until they dragged him back to make a third movie he didn't want to make. But you see a similar thing with "activist" creators who are handed the reins to IPs and use them to spread their message. Whether the message is celebrated or lambasted, the entertainment world is abuzz with their topic, and controversy just ensures that they are given more air time to shout their position to the world. There's nothing wrong with having an agenda and nothing wrong with fighting for what you believe in. If you do it well, you can even have great success doing it. Consider The Expanse, a series of novels basically about how the introduction of a world changing power changes the dynamic of an ingrained unequal and exploitative cultural hierarchy, and who's adaptation gave us a wealth of the best written and most dynamic minority and women characters in recent memory. But I digress. You can make entertainment that is commercially and critically successful. You can make provocative art that stirs fiery passion. But unless you are very, VERY, skillful and attentive to detail, you can't do both at the same time. There's a reason that the "starving artist" is such a cultural touchstone.

[@PenguinDust1969]

It's rare that you find actors, writers, directors, etc...actively saying they want to do something with a property to suit their own desires knowing that it goes against the fanbase. Margot Robbie is an exception since she was one of the biggest stars working in Hollywood at the time. Instead creatives will say that they want to do something "different" with the property. "Different" meaning different than what made the property popular in the first place. They want to explore some minor characteristic they found and focus on it rather than all of the popular elements. It's what spoke to them and is what pushes them to divert away from audience expectations. Additionally, I believe that Hollywood creators value the approval of their peers more than the audience. Doing something "different" will get them noticed and other creators will say how brave they are in their approach to a character. Such Hollywood buzz is good for their careers. At least until the final release tanks and the money-people say "No" when the buzz quiets down.

[@00110000]

I don't blame people like Rian Johnson wanting to make something subversive and divisive. I don't think artists should always try to appeal to as many people as possible all the time. The Force Awakens felt like it brought almost nothing new or interesting to Star Wars. That's fine for fans, but I felt like I got nothing out of it I didn't already have in the original trilogy. At the same time, I think it's completely insane for a large studio to _let_ an artist do that to their multi-billion dollar franchise. From the perspective of profit, TFA was exactly what they should have made to play it as safe as possible and they should have continued down that track. Artists are massive egoists (which is fine imo) and it's corporate's job to reign in that ego and set boundaries to guarantee mass appeal. These aren't indie films, there's a lot of money and goodwill at risk.

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

It's always been Gambit and Rogue, their dynamic is excellent and their chemistry is impeccable but why trade that for the worst possible age gap you could come up with?

[@chuiduma]

It's insane that these companies keep making things they know their main demographic is hoing to hate, but are so entitled that they blame saud demographic when it fails, even though they didn't make it for them in the first place. It's like blaming people who don't like musicals or plays for a broadway show failing.

[@Devilsblight86]

"Strange antagonism that came about recently..." ...I wouldn't say "recently." It's always been like this, it's just more prevalent as time goes on. Look up the behind the scenes of the 90s American Godzilla movie. The director was NOT a fan of Godzilla and actually looked down on fans. In fact, the designer for the movie revealed that he had actually came up with a design that was more faithful to the source material. The director (Roland Emmerich. Yeah, the Independence Day guy.) scoffed at it and choose the design we all know and hate today. After the movie flopped and fans (even Japan, the home of Godzilla) mocked the hell out it, Roland didn't take responsibility for making a bad film. He doubled down and blamed the fans. At least Joel Schumacher actually apologized for Batman & Robin and was a good sport about the whole thing. May he rest in peace.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

It can work to bring in someone who isn't familiar with a franchise to work on it but they need to respect it and the executives need to make sure they don't get too far out of line. When Nicholas Meyer was chosen to direct _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_ he didn't know much about Star Trek. Despite that he educated himself and produced a great movie and turned a fairly minor one-off villain from almost 2 decades earlier into an epic antagonist. When JJ Abrams directed _Star Trek Into Darkness_ he shat all over TWoK and the Star Trek franchise as a whole.

[@samflood5631]

Is that a fact?

[@Devilsblight86]

@@samflood5631 ...yes.

[@MultitaskingGuy]

5:19 how does she not understand a very relatable thing

[@derangedcrouton1864]

Whilst i agree, i disagree with the philosophy that the fans always know what they want, im sure some people would have screamed "NO ABSOLUTELY NOT" if someone pitched the idea of half the superheroes and universe dying in infinity war to them but it was done and it was a gamble that paid off, people still think infinity war is the best mcu film to date and the ending makes endgames portals scene that much more impactful even if endgame made some wierd decisions instead of doing the obvious things which it should have done, sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt, nobody wanted a captain america movie and we got one anyway and people liked it

[@MultitaskingGuy]

15:00 the not caring about the audience only works if it’s a 1000% original product

[@RiotLyfe]

The little tangent on forced ships around 16:00 feels like slandering that dogshit ship in '97. If so, subscriber earned

[@guizhangchen1999]

I mean sometimes you do have to not give people what they want and instead give them what they didn't know they wanted. Otherwise there would be no innovation. However, not only did they take this too far and in the wrong direction, but this probably shouldn't apply to adaptations of popular and well established works.

[@JohnHenrysaysHi]

Great! Thanks for being a champion woman of the people, JesterBell!

[@simcard027]

somebody needs to start pushing back on these creators anytime they whine about the toxic fandom and say what about the toxic creators? taking an established ip with fans and intentionally changing it to push your own message or what you want the established characters be and then dumping hate on the fans who complain about it, calling them all sorts of unjustified names like racists and biggots is pretty toxic in my opinion

[@doro626]

Huntress was AMAZING in Bird of Prey. I wanted an entire movie of her character. Mary Elizabeth Winstead was FIRE!!!

[@jayjaybee]

Even in Age of Apocalypse where Rogue and Erik are married and have a kid, which Lenore Zann, bless her heart, keeps bringing up, she and Gambit STILL have a strong emotional and physical attraction.

[@victorcates9330]

Probably depends on the property. With star wars, you have a bunch of stuff that was set in stone. If the property is meant to be enjoyable, then give the nice people what they want. If you want to do something alienating, then you probably need to break off a corner of the universe and market it so that you get the section of the audience that wants to be challenged. If you went into a restaurant and order a vanilla milkshake, you'd be annoyed if the staff decided to give you a chocolate one because it was more interesting for them to make. If you're a master chef, then maybe you can play around. But The Last Jedi director isn't a master. If you decide to frustrate the audience because you think you're a creative genius, that seems like you might want to look up the definition of 'hubris'. Otherwise, you have to maintain a level of fidelity to the property. I had previously advocated for something akin to the acolyte. Yes, I know, I apologise to everyone. I had specifically said that someone should investigate a different religion to complicate the Jedi religion. I had also advocated for going back to the movies that inspired George, rather than photocopy Lucas. But, firstly, I'm not a superfan, and even then, I'm not sure I advocated for breaking changes. The other bizarre details about the Acolyte is headland discussing it as something her parents would have let her watch (because it was Disney). The acolyte feels like it should be rated R. So far, it's moral greyness and a string of murders. With Andor, they seemed to get the audience into an understanding of a more adult tone. They maybe intentionally warded off some views. But otherwise, you have to meet audiences where they are. I can appreciate "oh, it's art", but it's still a problem if the audience wasn't craving your jedi murder fest. Fidelity might be lore, tone, rating, rather than superficial. Any altering of expectations maybe needs to be explained or negotiated. There's still room to add meaning (depth) into a story rather than subverting.

[@christscrackers647]

Mainstream studios have gone off the deep end. This is why I don’t watch anything from Disney or Warner Bros anymore, even if it’s good.

[@valentecarrillo4259]

Rouge love triangle was definitely forced in x-men 97. If u remember watching the 90's animated series Magneto and Rouge had no interest in each other. There weren't any signs or hints that Rouge and Magneto used to be a couple. Magneto didn't even cared that Rouge live or die. And Rouge was concerned about Gambit safety in Sanctuary than Magneto funeral. And I'm also pretty sure that Rouge and Gambit were already a couple on the show but the writers of X-men 97 retcon it having us think it never even happen. They did this because it happen in the comics. Just because it happen in the comics doesn't mean that they should have put it in animation. It should have never happen in the comic books anyway people hated that. People didn't like it in the comic books why would they like it in animation. The writers of X-men 97 must of known that it was so wrong but they did it anyway.

[@Krueger_ai]

Personally, I think that Helena Bonham Carter would’ve been perfect as Harley Quinn.

[@sammysstopmotionoas1996]

This is why I am praying James Gunn's Superman movie works and does extremely good at the box office so people will see that being faithful to the source material and wanting to please fans is the way to go.

[@Omnicrush333]

I am PRAYING for James Gunn's new DCU to be good. Really hoping they don't screw up (especially with Teen Titans since that's one of my favorites)

[@snowbunnie1113]

I want it to be good as well but I’m just too much of a sceptic. Between Gunn going only half in on a new cast (he’s keeping Gal Gadot and Viola Davies but Cavil gets the sack), trying to tie Matt Reeves universe to his own (but only some parts, Dano is Riddler in both universes but Pattinson is only Batman in Reeves-verse) and bringing in Tom King and adapting his work at DC (almost nobody likes King except a very small handful of people that are only fans of King)

[@wildcardproductions6010]

"I can't understand her infatuation with the Joker" ...😤 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO, SHE'S INSANE!! THAT'S THE POINT!!

[@miorandmior]

On the fans. The industry today tends to make fun of fans likes or dislikes , forgetting the fact that if the fans stop consuming people in the industry might end up begging on the streets (no real skills and all). Weve reached the apex of narcissism in hollywood i think. It's very possible the fans will just switch off. Take me for example, I haven't watched anything out of hollywood for close to 2 yrs now. Totally turned off. I watch korean and Japanese stuff now, way better content. Imagine millions ending up like me. Hollywood might just totally crumble . Perhaps it should so that these people truly learn a lesson.

[@dumdumer892]

I clicked on this video and got an Agatha Harkness ad. I see what you did there Disney 😏

[@sistersamich2075]

But props to Ryan Johnson, he seems to have really learned from his mistakes in the last Jedi. He went on to start the knives out series, which is absolutely one of my favorite movie series ever!

[@devildham]

Not really. Johnson was never a bad filmmaker. He just wasn't the right person for the Star Wars franchise. Visually, the film was beautiful, and it had some interesting ideas, but Hollywood too is enamored with the idea of the "auteur" filmmaker, who is some kind of singular genius and everyone else involved with the film are just there to service their vision. But large budget film is a collective project, and the director is one component. The irony is that Lucas himself was labeled similarly a "genius auteur" by Star Wars fans when some of the best parts of Star Wars came from other peoples involvement in the project, and when he was given absolute control.....we got the prequels.

[@biguy617]

Rian isn’t the only one responsible. Kathleen Kennedy is equally responsible as he is. He was her enabler

[@someother5512]

Hey Jester, I came across this channel recently, I just wanted to say that you produce quality content.

[@realjesterbell]

thank you 🫠

[@jman3657]

So Margo Robbie is the reason Harley Quinn sucks 😢

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

The new 52 and her

[@Johnathanbyers]

Yup

[@snowbunnie1113]

Harley already sucked in comics by that point, but Margot killed any chance of the character recovering her reputation in movies.

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

@@snowbunnie1113 💯

[@biguy617]

Not necessarily

[@samizdatbroadcasts7654]

This is where "too big to fail" gets us.

[@DanielBMaximoff]

They have been doing what fans don't like for a decade now. Its a case of disrespect invites disrespect. And its the same arguments round and round we go. Kills to explain why their decision making is bad, it kills that people think that they are great. All it accomplishes is for apathy to sink in deeper.

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

Oh look it's Hardly Quinnpool🤮😂

[@obsessedstar]

Almost Gwenpool

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

@@obsessedstar 💯

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

In DC Comics I keep hoping a villain with superstrength will get sick of her and punch her head into orbit. I'm thinking Black Adam would be an excellent choice.

[@ProxyHaxOO]

I like how you call Rogue "Rouge." Close enough, I guess xD

[@Grevnor]

This attitude is literally a cancer on the movie industry. It's insidious, destroys things from the inside, and inherently counter-productive to the goal of the organism, to the point of eventually killing it. It's not just the movie industry, either. It's pretty much everywhere. I have seen fan creations more respectful to the audience and IP than the creators themselves more times than I can count. Just emancipate all IPs allready and give the direction back to the fans! They obviously know what they want.

[@biropgrules]

Shows exists for audiences and needs to appeal to them to sell. Its a very basic concept that the current batch of western creators not only rejects, but actively resents.