Who Will Lead The Future of Home Heating with Johan du Plessis | The Fully Charged Podcast

[@judebrown4103]

Great to see Tepeo widening their products. We really need to be badgering government to sort out the way that electric heating is supported. Of course that means severing the link between oil and government and that will be very hard to do whoever we elect next time. I'm glad you mentioned that this is a heating only solution, that often gets forgotten when chatting with Tepeo, but I'm even more glad to hear they're working to resolve the problem of what to do about water heating. Looking forward to hearing more about that from the Show, don't forget to tell those of us who still can't get there this year all about it!👍

[@grahamcastle8189]

Well done imogen you are by far the best podcast chairperson on the channel. Keep up the good work.

[@scallywagII]

Great podcast thanks Imogen and Johan. I would just like to raise a few points: Any discussion of decarbonising domestic heating has to start with insulation. Reduce heat loss and automatically you can probably reduce the cost of the heating system, and certainly reduce the costs and environmental impact of running it. The average cost of £16,000 for a heat pump seems really high and probably reflects the cost of early adopters living in large, hard to heat houses. The recent quote for a heat pump for my 1990 built 3 bedroom end terrace is £8,800, or £1,300 after the grant. The COP of 3 referenced looks on the low side, and would only be the case if a high flow temperature was needed. Agreed a heat pump cannot store heat, but a hot water tank does. Also a well insulated house will not lose its temperature as soon as the heating is turned off. I would run the heat pump overnight on a cheap tariff, turn the thermostat down for the morning peak, then raise it again when prices are lower and there would be a contribution from solar, turn it down again for the evening peak and so on. So you can benefit from the lower consumption thanks to the heat pump and lower unit prices thanks to intelligent programming of the system.

[@geoffhaylock6848]

I really worry that cheap rates only exist as we have older generators that need to run 24/7 and demand is low at some points. EV's and energy storage will change that. We all know that price is based on demand.

[@Nikoo033]

@@geoffhaylock6848not just that. Prices for electricity generated by renewables fluctuate as a function of level of generation. If there’s a lot of wind or sun, then electricity is cheap in the UK (hence Octopus intelligent tariffs or fan clubs). At the moment, we have to pay some wind farms to reduce or turn off their output because there’s not necessarily enough demand. Storage will change this so that we can use that later, but not so much the prices when excess is produced.

[@theunknownunknowns256]

Off topic. Why is Imogen, an engineer, sooo good at journalism?!! Can we please have this addressed please? What am I missing or getting wrong. Also You Go Girl! You're the Ruby Tui of Fully Charged.

[@frejaresund3770]

Maybe because she knows what she is talking about. Unlike most journalists who often even can't use spellchecker.

[@Jaw0lf]

Great to hear how these can be used in places not fully suitable for an ASHP. Very good inerview with lots of thought provoking information. The more tools we have to electrify our homes and remove gas power is welcomed.

[@mikemellor759]

That was a really helpful video by Imogen. Her questions clarified the use cases for the Tepeo product compared with heat pumps avoiding the trap of merely promoting one manufacturer. 👏👏

[@jamesh284]

Sounds excellent and the combi tepeo is coming later this year. Will mean a lot of homes with combi boilers will be catered for. Keep up the good work.

[@watcher24601]

Came here for boiler alternatives for a small home after moving to a house with gas. Most solutions are designed for 3 to 4 bed houses, would really like to see an unbiased episode covering all the options. Originally wanted a solution for a flat to replace an aging water tank and immersion, nothing would fit so it was still using the original inefficient 1980s installation when I sold it! Having previously got rid of storage heaters for being too wasteful and inefficient, I'd be wary of going to back to them, even if repackaged as a tepeo

[@chrisgavin]

As I understand it, the way the Tepeo heat battery gets 'charged up' is by electical resistance heating of the concrete-like material inside. Like older storage heaters. BUT... Electrical resistance could be about a quarter as efficient as using a heat pump to convert electricity to heat. Is there not such a thing as a heat battery that could 'store' heat from a heat pump, perhaps even an integrated one, rather than relying on electical resistance heat elements ? The Tepeo Zeb is a heat battery for heating but can't take a heat pump input. The somewhat competing SunAmp Thermio, can take a heat pump input, but are only rated for water heating not house central heating. I can't help thinking there's a 'missing product' somewhere in between these two, a proper heat store for both hot water and heating needs that can be 'charged -up' with the effficiency of heatpump technology.

[@AdrianMeredith]

That was my first through also

[@FoxInClogs]

PV magazine covered a PCM-based thermal battery to store solar power via heat pump in October 2022. This sounds like a much more efficient alternative to the Tepeo but this particular product seems to be aimed at commercial and industrial usage. Apparently Sunamp has a PCM heat battery that can be charged at 45C, which sounds suitable for an ASHP. Try Googling phase change battery powered by "heat pump" for reviews/discussions about this.

[@robinbennett5994]

I think that's one of those ideas that sounds logical, but isn't economical with the existing technology. I'm sure you're used to hearing how heat pumps are most efficient with low output temperatures - but to store lots of heat in a small volume it needs to get really hot. That's probably why they use concrete rather than water - so they can go over 100C. That probably pushes the efficiency of a heat pump down to the point where it's not worth the extra expense. That would have been a really interesting question to ask Tepeo though, as I'm sure they would have thought of it too.

[@chrisgavin]

@@robinbennett5994 Hi. Yes I have not one shred of expertise or knowledge in this area. I take the point that maybe this ceramic based heat store might only work at higher temps than heat pumps. But there is a version of the SunAmp heat battery with phase change material designed to work with heat pumps at the lower heat pump temperaturues. But the SunAmp devices don't claim to be for home heating, just for hot water. I suppose that's what I'm thinking of in terms of there not being any one system yet for both purposes. Maybe Zeb's new solar inputs and 'combi' developments (when we get to see them) will be heading in the right direction ?

[@robinbennett5994]

@@chrisgavinI too have no expertise, but I think it's safe to assume that the engineers at Tepeo will have considered this. If it's occurred to dozens of people here in the comments, they probably have spreadsheets for comparing the amount of concrete vs other materials required to store different amounts of heat at different temperatures, and the relative size, weight and cost. Sunamp don't list a kWh value for any of their products, but describe them as hot water tank replacements, so I'd guess they store about 5kWh (based on how much gas we use per day in the summer). It could be double that, but if you have to buy 4 of them to store a day's worth of heating, the savings from using a heat pump would take agest to pay for it. It's just a bit frustrating that a 48 minute interview didn't ask such an obvious question (or the one about the future of off-peak tariffs, that has also been asked dozens of times). It's not on their FAQ either.

[@Pottery4Life]

Thank you, Imogen and Johan. Great conversation. My word, Imogen have you been busy!! Where's Jack!? Last we saw him he was zipping about on some sort of micro scooter. Did he nick the company card and head for Spain?

[@MrIRBee]

We were told by Tepeo that this couldn't be installed in our flat - they can't get it up concrete stairs. It may work very well in a lot of circunstances, but the economics of running one depends on it being part of grid balancing and taking advantage of cheap off peak electricity. Without that, it could prove very expensive to run.

[@klaxoncow]

Which could be a problem in the future. Because, as folks install solar, house batteries, heat pumps, charge EVs at home, etc. then the grid balancing equation of the future could very significantly change. Right now, overnight electricity is "off peak". But if we're headed for a future where millions of people are overnight charging their house batteries and EVs. Or if house batteries or grid-level batteries become ubiquitous, then these inherently balance out the grid. You get the gist. The future grid could look very different and, ideally, the disparity between "peak" and "off peak" should disappear (as that is basically an energy generating inefficiency and ideal efficiency would have no peaks). So, yeah, a technology that's dependent on the "peak" / "off-peak" disparity to make any economic sense feels like it's playing with fire and could come unstuck in the future (granted, a future that's still, unfortunately, seemingly distant but it is where we all intend things to be going eventually).

[@kadmow]

@@klaxoncow - as grid feed-in tarifs go to zero - and residential solar becomes more ubiquitous - multi-seasonal storage becomes significant. (Imogen gets it - saying that this thing "could" cost owners a fortune... ) with resistive heating... ie 1:1 efficiency transfer at best. Look at my other comments - large capacity seasonal storage will be more significant long term.

[@crm114.]

@@klaxoncowWe’re a way off that point but I expect vehicle-to-grid export will be key to the balacing act.

[@robinbennett5994]

I'd hope they'll develop a modular version, perhaps with a number of 10Kg that are easy to carry up stairs and build into the main unit. However it would make business sense to leave that until they have made a success of the simple case. I think the daily peaks will stay but the price differential might reduce. The fundamental demand will still have daily peaks, and people will only install house batteries or charge their EVs off-peak if there's a price differential to drive that. My prediction is that the price differential will always be at the point where a home battery will just about pay for itself it over it's life. Also, if we have enough wind and solar by 2030 to meet demand most of the time, we'll go from predictable daily peaks to unpredictable peaks over a few days or weeks, as weather systems pass over the country. I don't think seasonal storage will be economical for a long time, because anything that is only used once a year will take a long time to pay for itself.

[@aliruane]

Electricity prices vs gas should hopefully balance out and use across a 24hr period should balance out. So there should be no need for off peak tariffs when renewables generate 24/7 and storage is available 24/7. So a ZEB is the future shouldn’t be the cost nightmare it would be today without off peak tariffs.

[@Oppledom]

Great interview from both sides. Really appreciate the macro system and policy changes thay would support electrification of heating. Think I would add to his list large on-shore wind uptake.

[@tubularG]

Is 40 kwh really enough or do you need a well insulated home? I live in a Victorian mid terrace. We are very sparing with our heating. The estimated annual gas use is 12 MWh, we tend to use 5.5 MWh. That's still over 40 kWh daily usage in the colder months even with our low usage.

[@jackoliver337]

Love to see Imogen leading this podcast. Would be good to really push the change to electricity market to separate it from Gas and have it more equivalent rather than being 'stacked against it''

[@joewentworth7856]

great point about 'distress purchase market ' and good for Tepeo, but it feels we should be encouraging people to think about the inevitable failure of their current fossil system and do the research ahead of time to avoid the just shove another gas boiler in scenario.

[@urbanstrencan]

For me the future of heating in homes is IR panels with heating just where you need it , another great episode 😊

[@watcher24601]

I tried a portable IR heater for a spare room based on Robert's hype. Didn't appear to do anything - no heat, no feeling of sunshine, so had to switch on the conventional electric heater to get warm. I'd be very reluctant to rely on IR as my only heating

[@Pete-rf6zz]

Could a tapeo support or work alongside heat pumps

[@jeangreenfield5993]

We can only hope that Labour will be a lot more helpful than the current lot 🙏💚💛💚🌐

[@origin178]

Didn't you hear, Labour watered-down then cancelled their flagship green policy? They haven't got a clue!

[@johntuffrey9908]

The Tepeo combi boiler can't come soon enough! Best of luck with the product developement this year.

[@joewentworth7856]

great to have more electrical heating options. but i cant get my head round the cost. a decent brand heat pump is ~3.5k and this is £6k just of the unit. with the current grants its cheaper and more efficient to fit a heat pump. if they can get the price to 3k i can see this being a great option for some who a heat pump would require too much disruption.

[@GrahamRead101]

What about heating it from excess pv solar?

[@frejaresund3770]

I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.

[@2pdlpwr]

I Love your voice, Imogen..

[@maramé.r]

Very interesting and informative discussion. Presumably this can also store energy gained from solar panels. Will there be any built in integration with rooftop solar or does it need an Eddi or similar device to divert power otherwise ‘wasted’ by sending to the grid. How does this compare in efficiency to storing energy in batteries and using it later for electric heating

[@danielmadar9938]

Thanks

[@ThaedDavid]

Is the Tepeo combi boiler replacement no longer being built? I noticed there was no mention of it.

[@stratosphericozone2645]

My oil boiler broke 2 or 3 winters ago. I tried getting an air pump. I paid quite a bit to get my house assessed too because told that my house had failed and wasn’t suitable he wanted to put in an expensive new oil boiler setup. I sent ages trying to arrange a Government Grant. I was too long without heating and so I ended up having to replace with a similar oil boiler. A zeb could have worked well. I’m a shift worker so I would be interested to see how it worked for shift workers. I also live in Shetland and we will have a very wind based grid connection eventually. It will be interesting to see what happens to the variable cost of electricity on a night when they might not be so keen to transfer the electricity 100s of miles away.

[@stephanclements6908]

Thank you. Q for experts: For a detached 4bed house with solar & Octopus Go tarriff, which would be a better (non-heat pump) option? A). Replace gas boiler with Tepeo Zeb boiler or B) Keep gas boiler & install Sun Amp which can then be ‘charged’ with at non-peak, solar AND gas as a back up.

[@crm114.]

Does your solar include a battery, if so a heat pump would probably be a no brainer? Even without a battery, a heat pump still probably wins. 40kWh of heat storage is not that much for a large house. You need a heat loss survey to do your sums properly. Sorry, misread your Q - if a heat pump is off the menu, I’d probably stick with gas - on second thoughts i’d go with a heat pump. They work.

[@stephanclements6908]

Yes, but only 8kwh battery so only enough to power the current daily house consumption. My question referred to non-HP option. A or B?

[@crm114.]

@@stephanclements6908It’s difficult to answer your question without knowing how far the Zeb 40kW/day store would go towards your total heat requirement. But any non-heat pump option will be more expensive than gas even if you load most of heating burden on the night rate of 9p/kWh for Octopus Go. At the end of thr day you’ll be stuck on a COP of 1 at best.

[@flukeylukey7559]

Having the heating system operate by it's self sounds good, but will it have a holiday mode, because I don't think it'll have access to your diary. Also can it work when solar panels are working.

[@iscurrah]

Get to see innovation in the UK. I'd love to see a roundup of these types of technologies that are available around the world? How do they compare? What is available, practical and affordable in countries without a time of use tariff? Or where electricity price isn't related to gas price? Perhaps you could start with your contacts from the FCS in the Netherlands, US and Australia?

[@TasmanianDevil22]

Completed my gas fast track course in November and still have no work. Does Tepeo recruit directly or use subcontractors for installs? This application sounds perfect for people that do not want the heating on 24hrs a day to get maximum COP's or need any heat most of the year.

[@nervousfrog101]

Will be exciting to see a Tepeo combi, the Tepeo could quickly become the best solution for homes that do not have the space for a heat pump. also hopefully with a potential change of government this year we will see some big changes in the way the energy market works and we will see the price difference in a unit of gas and a unit of electricity narrow.

[@Paul-yh8km]

The percentage of energy that domestic heating takes up in the UK is higher than 14% (for emissions), it's more like 20% to 25%. Because of this, changing to electric (and mainly heat pumps) would make a big impact (downwards) to UK total energy consumption.

[@icebox344]

My boiler is in my loft. A like for like replacement, including all labour and VAT would be £1,750 (friend had one fitted this week). As much as I’d love to get rid of gas from my house, £8,000 (taken from Tepeo website) is a bit of a stretch for me.

[@michaelwinkley2302]

That is pretty much why they argue that they should be part of the BUS. If they were then you'd be looking at £500, which becomes a heck of a lot more compelling.

[@steamboatmodel]

I am in Canada and currently heat with a gas forced air furnece, how would your system work with that?

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

I can see these units having a place, but they feel more like a stop-gap product. Next step, a compact monoblock heat pump that is internally fitted with a similar size to an existing boiler. With the air exchange going out through the wall. Possibly with resistive instant water heating, to negate the need for a tank. Might be a challenge in that form factor. But for a lower power heat system, for a flat, where thre is no option to mount a traditional heat pump unit outside, might have a market.

[@mentality-monster]

I think I prefer the system you've seen in European countries. You pump in warmish water to every flat in the building and then each flat has a water to water heat pump extracting heat from that water to make it hot. You then don't need to worry about air exchange and each flat needs a much smaller heat pump as it will be taking let's say 30 degree water up to 55 degrees, rather than taking cold air and boosting cold water to 55 degrees. (centigrade) The warmish water coming in could be provided by a single large heat pump in the building. All you need then is some pipework going to each flat.

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

@@mentality-monsterThis could be done on centrally owned purpose built flats, with service ducts etc. and a management system in place. But many flats are converted houses and privatly owned by multiple different parties. So organising big retro fits is going to be a struggle. Should certainly be a consideration in new builds. Better still, have community systems for an area.

[@radfoo]

Maybe a smaller tepeo (to utilise off peak rate) + a water to water heat pump. That way no external unit needed and could probably also do instant hot water like a Combi.

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

@@radfooUnfortunatly, by converting electricity to heat initially, you have fixed your efficiency at 100%. So a heat pump will not win you any efficiency afterwards. The tepeo is only useful to move your low efficiency resistive heating to a cheaper/more convenient time of day. Though they could be used as space efficient instant water heaters. In addition to a compact low power regular heat pump for space heating.

[@radfoo]

@@gonzo_the_great1675 yes, that's how tepeo works now. I am suggesting something different a bit like @mentality-monster mentioned where a water to water heat pump is used. Rather than a centralised warmish supply you use the off peak water from the tepeo fed into a water to water heat pump when electric prices are high. Probably overly complicated and irrelevant when soonish many homes will have vehicle to grid/home anyway to take advantage of the off peak.

[@yborloch]

I can’t see this podcast on Apple podcast, is it just me?

[@wellsteadfamilytv9687]

Another brilliant episode featuring talented UK based talent. If only the UK Government would offer home owners an interest free loan for green home improvement, I would be making the transition away from my gas boiler

[@PaulTaylor2424]

When will the ZEB sold down under here in Australia? At the moment, heat pump boiler replacement is $14k+ 😢

[@petercroxford5030]

Would it be possible to combine this technology with a heat pump eg say a 10kw to 20kw tepeo with a small heatpump to increase the heatpump temperatures and efficiency during peak power usage times. Grants would become available too?

[@richhib]

If the Tepeo ZEB is basically a storage heater, then surely it suffers the same issues that storage heaters had i.e. By the time you need the heat, the block has cooled down so you have to use space heaters to warm your house 😖. Would love to know how/if they have solved this problem. My gut tells me that something like the Sun amp Thermino which uses Phase Change Materials will hold on to its heat better, but I could be wrong.

[@keithbennett1656]

Put very simply, peak hours are times of the day when energy usage in the UK is at its highest. By contrast, off-peak times are periods when less energy is generally being used across the country & some energy suppliers offer a cheaper rate to encourage use during this off peak period.When everyone is charging their ev and home battery during this off peak period the concept of ' off peak ' will disappear because energy usage will be spread more consistently over the day and then the cheaper off peak rates will probably disappear as the incentive for energy companies to offer lower rates disappears.

[@garyrooksby]

But, although the usage will be balanced, they will still be "off peak" periods due to the underlying predictability of cyclic demand. If the price incentives disappeared then the usage would immediately go back to how it was before. The balancing is a dynamic management of those peak and off-peak demands resulting in a maximally efficient usage of the total generation. It's easier to remember if you think of "Peak" and "Off peak" as demand-related, not supply-related. The peak demand is always there and the off-peak demand is generated via cost incentives.

[@keithbennett1656]

​@@garyrooksby I'm not convinced by your statement ' if the price incentives disappeared usage would immediately go back to how it was before '.This video is about home storage batteries sold with the sole purpose of being charged up at cheap rate off peak times.There is no previous usage behaviour for owners of these batteries to go back to.With EV's many if not most owners have bought them with the intention to immediately begin charging them at home using off peak electricity so again,for these people,there is no previous usage behaviour to return to.Also i believe most people are creatures of habit so if they've been charging their EV's at night using off peak rates they'll probably continue doing so if the cheap rates are withdrawn unless there is some other incentive to make them change again.The raison detre of these energy providers is profit.If they see an opportunity to increase profitability by removing cheap rates they won't hesitate.You're correct when you say peak & off peak should be thought about in terms of demand not supply but when there are millions of EV's and home batteries charging up during periods that used to see demand drop then that demand will be more consistent over a 24 hour period hence the concept of off peak will become outdated.Remember we're all going to be driving EV's in the future so that's 30 million electric cars charging mostly at home, we're told, during what we presently refer to as off peak times.That's a lot of electricity because although estimates vary it seems from figures i can find online that every EV charging at home is equivalent to another average house in terms of how much electric it uses.

[@robinbennett5994]

@@keithbennett1656 If the off-peak tariff went away, I could charge my EV any time I wanted, which would probably be at about 6pm when I get home from work.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

So does this replace a Gas Boiler heating ones Water Radiators, like he implied???????????

[@geoffhaylock6848]

The more people that move to EV's the more load will be during the cheaper times driving up prices. I can see a time when charging over night increase electricity costs to that of peak times. I'm sure electricity suppliers wouldn't do this once they have a captured market?

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

'central heating' for those who dont know is as it says, a central heating point, rather than heating individual rooms individually.

[@uproid]

Whilst I think the Zeb is a great product, and will suit some homes, I think he was being a bit disingenuous by describing it as a "plug in replacement". I looked into this on their website, and it will only be a plug in replacement for a minority of households. It is bigger than a gas boiler, so unless your boiler has loads of space all around it, then it just won't fit in the same place. Our boiler is snugly in a cupboard, definitely not a plug in replacement for us. The website also says it has to go downstairs, and a fair bit of space required all around it. So that knocks out every household (like us) with the boiler upstairs. Sure, you can fit it somewhere different if you have space somewhere (we don't), but then it isn't a plug in replacement any more. So whilst I do think it is a great product, and I wish them all the best with it would be helpful if it was promoted more honestly, as when such a statement turns out not to be true, it inevitably leads one to wonder what other statements are also not quite accurate? Fingers crossed that Tepeo can come up with a product soon that really is a plug in replacement for a small compact gas boiler installed in a cupboard upstairs!!

[@simonblurton8009]

When I need a new boiler I'll get one of these probably.

[@kadmow]

-or a high temperature ground source heat pump (If you have a garden - a horizontal loop needn't cost the house...)

[@mikebakkeyt]

Interesting stuff. Couple of immediate thoughts: 1). No mention of the importance around changing building standards so that whatever technology is used, it needs less Kwh input. 2). I *always* get nervous/put-off when I see a product which requires cloud access to work. What happens if Tepeo fails/gets bought out or AWS falls over? I suspect the answer is that there is still manual control but a big point made was that this solution masks that level of complexity. Interesting stuff but BEIS and the rest of HMG really need to get their fingers out and try doing a strategy instead of flip-flop knee-jerks. Personally - I have a boiler with maybe 5 years life in it and today I'd be hesitant to go either heat pump or Tepeo due to lack of confidence in the installers and price. I'm very pro the direction but I learnt how chaotic the installation landscape is when I put in my solar and battery - despite the fine brochure talking about planning and service, it was very subcontracted to 3rd parties who didn't know/care that much and post sales service is awful. I'll sit down now 🙂

[@kadmow]

(I hate anything that can't work off local nets (LAN)- I have some such systems I use, but grudgingly... grrrrr.

[@Danothebaldyheid]

I think there's a problem with your podcast releases - Pocketcasts hasn't loaded this, or Quentin's one from Friday for some reason..

[@Paul.Woodcraft]

The Zeb isn't new. I had a GEC Nitestore, a massive freezer-sized storage heater that heated the central heating water to run through radiators. I contacted the Zeb company, hoping that I could replace the 30-year-old GEC with a more efficient system. It couldn't be used as a replacement. This may be because the old heater was 90kw storage compared to the 48kw of the Zeb.

[@Paul.Woodcraft]

I had to stop listening as from my perspective the Zeb would have been perfect with Octopus, solar panels we have and a space and pipes that would have just connected. Instead, we went for Infra-Red requiring a new ring main and lots of work on ceilings to fit the panels.

[@Paul-yh8km]

kWh not kW.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

interesting

[@penrithomas115]

It seems decupled gas from electricity would fix most problems

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

indeed, how can they be linked, what a ripoff, by the people at the top...

[@narrowboatlongpod4176]

Certainly a combi version could be great for high-rise flats where ASHP may be more difficult to install.

[@mrtod13]

Fascinating as always 😊

[@Gazmaz]

I’ve just tried to get a quote for a semi detached home that sits within their requirements, however I then received an email along the lines of ‘no we can’t help you’re. We have a long way to go before we can electrify our home heating and water because I can assure you heat pumps are only a small piece of the jigsaw.

[@kotgc7987]

I'm starting to research sustainable heating and I am wondering how electric boilers compare to geothermal heating, say efficiency and costs?

[@garyrooksby]

There's a MASSIVE range of costs for a geothermal system depending on your location. Several orders of magnitude so vague general comparisons become meaningless.

[@kotgc7987]

I guess for a residential house. I hear Europeans have free heating in the snowy alps, so geothermal must work? Whereas in Queensland, there's no heating required. So I guess for Britain, Switzerland or Victoria?@@garyrooksby

[@dominicgoodwin1147]

40kW isn’t that much. It’s a pity it’s not modular. You could easily have a battery of granite blocks that you could expand for different sizes of property.

[@kadmow]

- kwh... price that out in "power walls" and get back to us - ie. it is approaching 3 power wall-2s (to go that way, "you must be - $$$$ " (cough - spendy)- lol... (I get it , I could drop coin tomorrow, I choose not to..)

[@garyrooksby]

The unit is kWh. kW is a rate of use/flow of energy, not an "amount" of energy.

[@dominicgoodwin1147]

@@garyrooksbyI think from the context that both I and the other reply are quite clearly talking about energy stored kWh, not power kW, despite the typo. As to the previous point, of course heat batteries are a much cheaper way of storing heat than converting the energy to electricity and back again, but my point is that a modular storage medium would allow you to add more hours of heating different sizes of house. It’s good to have a design that lets you choose your kW of power and your kWh of energy separately.

[@dominicgoodwin1147]

@@kadmowobviously it’s cheaper than an electrochemical battery, but that’s not the point. If you were choosing an oil-fired boiler and were told “This is a 10KW boiler with a built in 100l tank” you might well say “well 10kW is fine but I need a 500l tank to run it for longer between refilling” The Zeb is also very, very heavy. Modular design would allow the heat exchangers and the heat storage mass to be transported separately.

[@Hyfly13]

If I'm charging up a 40 kWh Tepio and a 64 kWh car and probably a 10Kwh domestic storage battery because I'm in a 4 bed Victorian semi and the Tepio isn't big enough, can I actually draw enough power from my electrical intake during the low tariff time window?

[@ElectricCarAustralia]

Seems like a great solution to the gas boiler issue.

[@gathonar]

Just checked, they don't deliver to Scotland nice.

[@Yorky222]

One of the biggest cost of a heat pump installation is the internal changes to the heating system

[@AnonYmous-rw6un]

Potential cost.

[@Hyfly13]

Often unnecessary

[@garymenezes6888]

Get ting rid of gas from your utility bill, also means getting rid of the standing charge for gas. So now you only have the Standing Charge for Electricity to pay.

[@garyrooksby]

Great vid.

[@andrewmullen4003]

why when a heat pump costs £1500-£2500 does it cost 15K to fit one?

[@robinbennett5994]

Because they usually have to change radiators and internal plumbing. And because there aren't enough installers, so they can charge what they like!

[@davebax6819]

The Govt are blind to this, they are going full steam ahead for ASHP even though one of the Lords in charge was happily burning his way through fossil fuels in his house in London….The BUS grant MUST be available for Tepeo as well.

[@Stan-at-KangarooIslandTV]

The internet of Energy - you heard it here first folks 😊

[@markkunes9711]

Please verify his quote of the typical heat pump cost is £16-k before the grant.

[@williamarmstrong7199]

The problem I can see is I charge my EV at night. This draws 7.2KWh for 4 to 6 hours a night. If I also want to charge this up as well my power draw would exceed my house maximum ampage. Before I recharge my house battery.

[@Gazmaz]

The impact and distribution of installing a heat pump in our home means I cannot see us doing it, we want to move to using and electrical heating and hot water supply and we so need more of this sort of development. And we need fully charged to bring us more of this sort of development information. Plus I liked the fact they used machine learning as the correct term rather than the marketing rubbish that everyone is using I.E AI thank the lord 😉

[@kadmow]

- good, the machine learning - or neural net/stochastic framework... is a nice detail - input - some get it, others are bamboozled - there is no general AI, just a bunch of large-scale language "machine learning" engines..

[@crm114.]

Great podcast. But, why are there SO many adverts? Sounds like the Zeb is dependent on a good time-use-tariff to get costs even close to that with a heat pump. Given that a well installed heat pump is 400% efficient, that’s a tall order. I went down the heat pump + battery storage route to ultra low heating costs. Zeb is an innovative product though, but a potential user needs to calculate the likely running cost carefully.

[@thekaxmax]

you saw adverts? I didn't see one.

[@essentricaudio]

Because KZbin

[@Asunisland]

Sounds good for my flat when i replace my gas combo boiler in the not to distant future. Unfortunately my biggest problem is that i have smart meters installed that do not connect wirelessly to the northern England data network. And no sign of a solution to make them ever work. Lots of talk about a solutions but no actual solutions appear and the years roll by. So i don’t to my knowledge have access to low cost electricity tariffs. I believe gas boilers cannot be installed in houses from 2025 onwards. When my gas boiler breaks i do not know whether there is an economic system i can have installed. So it looks like my bills will go stratospheric if my boiler is replaced soon based on electricity. Does anyone know of any solutions occurring for smart meters? I have contacted energy producers and my local mp. I did receive a large report explaining why my smart meters don’t work. Not useful! But nothing about solutions!

[@steverichmond7142]

Why not make your building airtight then ventilate it using passive HRVS. Instant hot water shower and taps. Really cheap and very efficient. Why store hot water?

[@narrowboatlongpod4176]

Usually because you can't heat the water quickly enough in larger properties.

[@robinbennett5994]

This is mainly for house heating, not hot water. Ideally all houses would be insulated to passive-haus standard and not need heating, but that's really expensive for most existing buildings. Air-tightness is not the main problem until you get beyond the level of insulation currently required by building regulations.

[@steverichmond7142]

I have provided hot water in boarding houses in Blackpool with instant heaters and showers@@narrowboatlongpod4176

[@steverichmond7142]

Airtightness is relevant once you build with 180mm SIPS. They are cheap and cheap to make airtight. I can build the shell of a 12mx 6m x 2.5m bungalow for less than £22,500. @@robinbennett5994

[@davidfellowes1628]

The more VPP installations the easier for the transition.

[@floydbertagnolli944]

Interesting. Thx. - it seemed like this message was very centered on UK customers. Keeping in mind that most of your viewers are outside of the UK more universal discussion would’ve been welcome.

[@AdrianMeredith]

Dear Tepeo, why not a heatpump > ZEB?

[@gmac4737]

If you can heat a hot water cylinder with a coil, heated by a heat pump, surely its not much of a leap to heat storage heater bricks that way. Using a fan and ducting to distribute warm air isn't a new idea as mentioned

[@dogbreath6974]

How can it cost over £16000 for a ASHP? (which is basically an air conditioner in reverse), even with the grant its way to expensive. The problem is companies/installers are inflating the prices because of the grants. This is not new tec, heat pumps have been around for decades. I have just had a new boiler fitted for £1200, I wanted to fit a ASHP, but the cost is to much. If they want people to change to more eco friendly boilers, then they need to lower the price drastically. My boiler is wall mounted, so I'm guessing this Tepeo has to be installed on the floor, but it's still overpriced.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

Price is an issue for sure, Reverse heating is 100 years old. Heat banks with high density bricks is also 100 years old. We are still being ripped off. A Storage heater with water pipes in and elements that can he heated at anytime as well as 'overnight' is also not new. Linking to a Flexable tarriff is new for sure. 16k£ is far too much, if that's what he is saying, though it's not clear....

[@_Dougaldog]

Did you ever get a quote for HP or did you assume cost, I had my old defunct gas heating system totally replaced for just under £4k after grant. HP, radiators, pipework, unvented HW cylinder all new.

[@Pete-rf6zz]

The EPC rules are wrong for sure ❤

[@kadmow]

Versatile combined; heating, cooling and solar - combined is a better investment than a home battery - better for anything climate related as well.. Resistive heating, the last ditch use case for "surplus power" before it gets wasted by an overloaded grid with negative daytime pricing (ie it costs you to export.)... Fill an insulated in-ground watertank with sand and heating coils - plus high temperaturature (copper or steel) hydronic heat recovery coils - a huge capacity thermal system is very accessible to anyone... magnetite - ie, black iron ore a very low cost "reasonable thermal mass" bulk product.. (no secrets at all... nothing mysterious..) NB, if a single heating coil ,malfunctions, the whole system is disposable..... - so much B$, my claustrophobia is triggered... lol...

[@jonathanribee8098]

Ideally every home might generate all the power it needs. and at some time export enough to pay for itself in terms of repair, taxes, upkeep and maybe even the new buy house cost over 20 years or so meaning houses are cost neutral and pay for themelves and provide enough electricity for heavy industry, hydrogen production for niche needs, ship and aero fuel etc. Turn the model upside down!

[@rogerphelps9939]

ZEBs have a COP of 1. They are just fancy storage heaters. Even if all UK electricity supplies are renewable you need three times the amount of installed generating capacity and, while fossil fuels are still in the mix, they are much worse for the environment than heat pumps. The economics of ZEBs depend crucially on the price of off peak electricity. Expect that to rise as overnight EV charging becomes more prevalent. ZEBs are not the answer.

[@Paul-yh8km]

Yes. Heat pumps would actually reduce total UK energy consumption, but still require more generation capacity than we have now, but other electric heating solutions would still reduce total energy consumption, but not as much. On the other hand some homes (a small percentage) will need alternatives to heat pumps and changing living habits can help to keep consumption down.

[@Foucault2001]

It’s worth listening to the Everthing Electric Show podcast with Laura McAtear and Quentin Wilson from a couple of weeks ago showing the grid can cope and will be able to even with the switch to EVs and electric heating (no I don’t work for them!) On the subject of the ZEB I can’t get too excited about what is just a modern storage heater. I can see certain use cases but for a lot of properties a heat pump in a properly designed system makes more sense. Sorting out insulation should be the number one priority though as will cut down energy use whatever the source.

[@Paul-yh8km]

@@Foucault2001 Not convinced about Laura's 600 GW figure in that podcast, I think she confused that figure with some other quantity. eg. there is thought to be 600GW of offshore wind capacity that could be exploited by the UK.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

Finally a well insulated home is a FIRST BASE thing, and its still not happening. Governments are so week and beholding to big businesses. Here in Australia we had a 5☆ Min insulation system, mandated, BUT in actualality ints only 1☆, but the industry [building] screamed, so they made it 5☆ which sounds absolutely top draw, but it is NOT. ALSO its not checked, so what the builders, and home builders do is something else. AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE....

[@Nikoo033]

However this heat battery will not cool you down in a warming climate. A heat pump will.

[@_Dougaldog]

But BUS grant covers those models that heat only, government does not want unnecessary demand on grid that cooling would require, that's what caused serious supply problems in California in recent years.

[@Nikoo033]

@@_Dougaldog the importance of the grid will more and more decrease as people and businesses install solar PV and either home storage or own EVs with V2H/L. It will also reduce the losses in transport and conversion that currently account for half of all the electricity generated in the UK…

[@johncoghlan9564]

Interesting podcast, but you seem to still be stacking the eco home heating debate against heat pumps. How did you let him get away with saying that a typical heat pump installation costs £16k? This is simply not true. Our heat pump cost £11k to install and prices are getting cheaper all the time. Heat pumps are more than three times more efficient than the ZEB, which means they are more environment friendly, and create less demand from the grid making them the obvious solution nationally. And what we really need to see is a comparison of the running costs of the ZEB versus a heat pump. I’m confident the heat pump would be cheaper, especially as the ZEB doesn’t even heat your hot water tank as efficiently as an immersion heater. More support for heat pumps in future please!

[@VitalStatistics-t7t]

What is a boiler? I live in Australia. It's not a term we use. Mind you, heating is not a thing we really need to do,

[@klaxoncow]

Basically, a heated water tank. (It's a misleading name, as you typically do not want to actually be boiling the water. But it's a colloquial way of getting across "thing that heats up water".) Typically, in the UK, it's a gas boiler. And that just means that natural gas is burnt to produce heat, which heats up the water. Then the heated water can be circulated around the home, by water pipes, to radiators in each room, for heating and also to provide hot water from the hot tap. Whilst you might not need a heating system in Oz, presumably you do still need hot water from the tap. How's that done where you are?

[@VitalStatistics-t7t]

Thanks for explaining. We almost never need any heating of the house (maybe a day or two in the middle of winter). We have a heat pump water heater that uses about half a kilowatt hour to heat the water each day. We have reverse-cycle air conditioning (which I suppose is technically heat pump) to heat the house, but it's really only ever used for cooling in summer. I like the idea of actually needing heating instead of cooling - it's always so bloody hot! @@klaxoncow

[@TroggyPB]

⁠@@klaxoncow For many years house owners have chosen to have solar water heater panels and storage tank on the roof. Some have super insulated external hot water tanks with immersion heaters. Having travelled to Aus in 2015,2018 and 2023 I have seen a huge increase in solar panels on all ages of houses and buildings so some will utilise solar pv to heat water tanks. They’re really “getting it” but transportation is still lagging due to their love of the small truck like America and build up of charging infrastructure.

[@garyrooksby]

@@klaxoncow the boiler and the water tank are completely different things. The tank stores hot water for immediate use. The water was heated by the boiler. With a combi-boiler the water tank is removed completely and water is heated immediately at the point of use. Combi-boilers are generally more efficient as they avoid the energy loss from hot water tanks radiating heat due to less-than-perfect insulation.

[@garyrooksby]

The boiler is a gas or electric water heater. A combi boiler heats the water at the time of use and a traditional boiler heats water and stores it in a separate insulated hot water tank. In the UK just about all new installs are combi boilers as the old ones that used tanks are less efficient due to heat loss from the tanks as it's impossible to provide perfect heat insulation. In the USA a boiler is called a "furnace".

[@wertigon]

Listening to this podcast is a chore when youtube rudely interrupts with a minute of unskippable ads every fifth minute -_-;; What is this, American cable networks?

[@daveh6356]

A good start but GBP6K to heat a concrete block? Only once these products become de-luxurised with low double-digit markups & target economy rather than 'ecology' (which they'll never change) will the public take them seriously. In the meantime battery prices are tipped to crash.

[@pumpkinhead456]

40kwh is not a huge amount, spread over 18 hours that's not going to keep many people warm for long.

[@neildolan7177]

What flys in the face of logic here is that there is nothing to regulate electricity & how it is priced. We are putting our eggs in one basket. All off peak heaters in the schools that i went to got ripped out because of the price of electricity.

[@Flickerbrain]

Here in Southern Germany we don't have off-peak energy tarifs . Our electricity here is 100% "green" (Hydro, wind, solar etc) but they charge a single tarif (but pretty cheap 30cents kW) so this Tepeo system wouldn't work here I guess.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Yes. ZEBs are pretty much a con very much dependent on cheap off peak electricity.

[@garyrooksby]

@@rogerphelps9939 They entirely work by leveraging the different charge rates to offset usage to low-demand times. That benefits the user via reduced costs and benefits the infrastructure management by balancing demand. That is NOT a con.

[@GrahamRead101]

Charging a single tariff isn’t very innovative. Even with a 100% green grid, demand varies. Best to encourage more use at lower demand time.

[@pauld3327]

Doesn't Germany use a lot of coal and gas for electricity generation ?

[@Flickerbrain]

@@pauld3327 It does up in the industrial part but here in Southern Germany our local supplier (ENBW) claims complete 100% green energy production. We have a big hydro-electric power station nearby on the Rhine and lots of wind and solar.

[@Leo99929]

I'm guessing that this achieves the energy density via a heat stable material and relies upon high temperatures that heat pumps can't efficiently reach? It would be great if this could leverage the efficiency of a heat pump. As it is, SunAmp looks like a better solution for raw efficiency, as you can use solar via a battery to power a heat pump that stores the heat in the sunamp thermal battery. After less than 10 years the solar panels have paid for themselves and you get "free" hot water and heating from then on. The heat pump cuts costs by ~70%. The battery cuts costs by ~50% allowing you to use economy 7 prices "all the time" The solar enables you to remove the remaining cost amortised over

[@Kente9011]

if you want ev charging prices and ev car prices to come down , just don't buy an ev and or go back to petrol diesel cars, this way it will bring all prices down 75%

[@chriss4949]

Sorry…just an advert for Tepeo….with it’s CEO “stretching” the truth at best

[@Rkcuddles]

Ok I am jealous of how perfect your teeth are ..😊.

[@t1n4444]

Just as the end ... did my ears deceive me ... dod we hear the 'h" word? Yes we did. And this notion of instant hot water via this "mark 2" device. Why not simply stick with instant geyser in kitchen and instant electric showers? The issue with electricity aa slways is nobody can predict the cost per unit of electricity or if tariffs will always be flexible. Imogen looked bored at the end. Not her finest hour one might say. Not her usual chatterbox style cf her Dacia piece a few days ago.

[@onbedoeldekut1515]

Could you start making content for those of us who aren't earning hundreds of thousands a year for a change? Or is that the only audience you care about?

[@piconano]

How are you British? You have perfect teeth!

[@Actually-y7j]

Fully BS!!