Why 40k is a bad competitive game and why we play it anyway

[@TabletopTitans]

Interested in seeing a bunch of geeks try to be better at 40k? Check out "Nice Boys, Mean Lists": kzbin.infoDMRSt0tBgjU?feature=share

[@codycurtin2295]

Getting into 40k has saved me. The phone and computer screen were feeling liek they were draining my life force and I was just wasting the time off I was given. But with this hobby I am developing skills, I have gained immense patience, and I feel like I have reset the damage our digital culture created. I am eternally grateful for this horrendously long and complicated game

[@ComfortsSpecter]

Just Vibing with mi funni cute colorful killies

[@rob1n1206]

haha, feel you.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Meanwhile digital allowed me a disabled sickly man tto live life to the fullest.

[@Miki-hk6vy]

Agreed, I'm glued to my phone or PC when not learning/helping roommates, that's why I ordered an army that will arrive in March so I can do something enjoyable and not feel bad after spending a lot of time on it

[@Victor-sk8by]

Agreed

[@silkydarkling9433]

There needs to be more videos like this. I'm not a very competitive player myself (I have played in some tournaments but I always play what I think is cool regardless of how good it is), but it makes me annoyed when people constantly put down the competitive side of the hobby. People can enjoy this hobby however they like, and that includes the competitive players and meta chasers. And sure, the game is unbalanced, but that can sometimes lead to some crazy, ridiculous and fun games. I don't care how unbalanced and janky the rules are or can be, I plan to keep playing 40k.

[@RobertN734]

The stuff you listed as being great about competitive 40k are true of most other wargames. Everybody I know who's branched out of 40k can't get back into it (myself included). I ran the local Crusade league for the better part of a year, but eventually the problems in competitive trickled down and spoiled even narrative. Our Tau player suffered through most of 9e. Then the new codex was so powerful that he hated tabling everyone effortlessly with his old narrative list. Same with Custodes and Harlequins and AdMech and... So we just play other games and are happier for it. Personally, now I'm ranked top 20 in the US in Kill Team, so the problem isn't me or being competitive. Two main issues: 40k changes so quickly that it's impossible to keep up once you've fallen off. Secondly, 40k is one of the least enjoyable games to actually play. There are massive stretches of wasted time, the rules themselves are awful to navigate (Look Out Sir, Obscuring, etc.), and the game balance is routinely unacceptable.

[@TattooedTabletop]

I absolutely appreciate this video's approach to this topic! It's a good blend of constructive criticism and positivity towards the hobby. I think the community gets too bogged down in negativity and spend so much more energy on focusing on that versus truly appreciating some of the aspects that make this a lifetime enjoyment.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

That's true but he also listed some bad reasons to...

[@crr4482]

It's always nice to see the more levelheaded takes in a community that can obsess over the negative.

[@marcincezak]

Imo something being very unique to 40k is the massive build-up and insane pay off you get throught the cycle of building new model in comparasion to other genres. It goes smth like this (atleast for me) 1. I see an amazing model/look up incredibly fun rules it has 2. Order the mini or straight up buy it if its ever avillable again([*] to my wardogs) 3. Assembler the guy including any possible conversions and kitbashes to make the mini more „yours” 4. Acutally painitng the model witch may or may not include getting paints,brushes, looking on yt tutorials how to do it Meanwhile listening to the Lore surrounding the mini and it factions brought to you by MANY gr8 KZbin people 5. Building a list that makes the most of your faction or helps with the theme of the army you’ve going for And then you get the payoff of your fully realized mini crushing Heads on the tabletop *sorry for bad grammar english Isnt my first language

[@scojo6373]

This didn't say why you play it over other competitive TT games, though. This was just "Why we play 40k instead of computer games".

[@mamneo2]

Incroyable.

[@ozyrandor]

I agree with all the positive points. The hobby, the community, the "doing something else than scrolling on your phone". However for me those can be found in other miniature games. I've been playing GW games since 1998, but in 2019 I met a friend who burst my GW bubble and introduced me to a whole new world of mini games. I noticed that it felt hard for me to go back to 40K after playing (in my opinion) "better" games. It gradually got harder for me to enjoy the game until after recently playing a 40K league I noticed that I had a more fun experience losing a game of Song of Ice and Fire, than winning in 40K. I still love the minis and the lore, but for me playing the game is done (unless something radically changes). Some personal issues I have: the activation system, the having to roll 4 times in order for a wound to go through, the rules bloat, the pricing, the ecosystem (paywalled apps, cards, codexes).... It just feels too old school and clunky. To me it's just not worth the time, especially since there's several miniature games I enjoy more, that I could be spending that time on. Also those games are often a lot cheaper. I'm not saying you can't enjoy 40K. But I think, dear reader, that you should really do yourself a service and check out and try some other games (if you haven't already) and see if you like them (there's so many good ones out there). Let's not let the VHS of miniature games beat the Betamaxes again ;) TL;DR: I recommend checking out other games. Some examples: Song of ice and Fire, Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion

[@Blottingpaper]

being constantly fresh, isn't great when it's due to stuff being broken. If the game wasn't so easily solvable - aka bring x unit in x list and win (oversimplified but good examples are : Tzeentch flamers) if the game allows multiple options in an army beyond choice 1 , 2 or 3 then there'd be more life to it as you could reliably bring different unit combinations and know there's a good chance of putting up a good fight. But most comp players will see 50-60% of a codex to be 'utter trash'

[@maroonlion2150]

I’ve had to move on from 40k since I physically can’t afford this fun anymore so now I do Star Wars battle legion and MCP, which I find more affordable

[@Ankhtowe]

Tellingly, not a single thing in this video on the positives side is actually unique to Warhammer though, so I don't think it really addressed the second point. Every tabletop minis game is physical, social, and updated.

[@WildWingZero]

This is an interesting video but it doesn't go far enough into the right aspects. It addresses why this over esports or other types of games, but it feels like it spends too much time into that category instead of addressing why 40K over other types of games in the same genre that addresses these flaws of 40K. Games like Warmachine in the past, Infinity, Judgement, X-Wing, Legion, etc. where their competitive rules address a lot of the problems that are inherent to 40K. Hell even MTG can be used as a direct comparison why.

[@matthewpowell3556]

My favorite part of Warhammer has always been, and always will be Apocalypse. Ever since I saw the Space Marine Battle Company box back when I was in High School I was hooked. After 5 Bloodthirsters charged into 10 Wraithknights; after 15 Knights dueled a Reaver and Warhound; after my flights of Sunsharks bombed 100's of Imperial guard... I will always come back to it.

[@matthewpowell3556]

Of course I now have 20k points of Tau, but it is nothing a small home loan, and a Manta, can't take care of.

[@RobertN734]

Apocalypse ruleset is the best thing GW ever made. That's how I play 40k with my mates now. Even normal 2000pt games are just more fun with those rules.

[@Smilomaniac]

I’ve called out, for years now, that people call for balance way too much and should not expect an equal experience from any faction and certainly not during all points in an edition life cycle. I find that the nerf calls are eggregious and make GW knee-jerk react in bad ways. For example the plasma inceptors that got booted back up to the full original price, making them worse after loss of AoC. Borderline incompetent. I don’t think equalizing units and factions make the game better either, they make it less fun. People also insist on 1:1 point balancing for something (like between meltaguns on different platforms) and even between factions, which is to me completely ludicrous and further flattens the gameplay - Some factions and subfactions should have cheaper tanks, others should have cheaper troops and so on. Combos and cheese have their place in the game. Things can ‘stick out’ without having them hammered immediately. I see an abundance of players complain about unit efficiency who probably can’t even deploy their forces well enough for any unit to matter, no pre-measuring, no consideration for phantasm or equivalent rules and a subpar understanding of terrain rules. The ‘hotfix’ mentality people have brought with them from MOBA games and other online play does this hobby no favors.

[@ryancooper3629]

I remember the good ole days when changes never were made to codices. Your book would come out, and that was that until your next book or if you got a WD update which was hella rare. I think the state now is way better. Having a new book come out and realizing your army is gonna be utter garbage for the next 2, maybe 3 years is such a bad experience.

[@joeofdoom]

I remember not even getting a new codex in one edition.

[@ryancooper3629]

@@joeofdoom exactly, tho that sometimes still happens even now, but at least you can count on pts adjustments and errata to keep you relevant.

[@CaptainKeeez]

I think it's most interesting to compare to Magic the Gathering, as it has a lot of the same cons as Warhammer for competitive but manages to pull it off much better. Magic's 50 minute best of 3 rounds certainly help, but that is harder problem to meaningfully address in Warhammer. I think the big things to look to in Magic for inspiration when trying to improve competitive Warhammer are the comprehensive rules and game balance. Having an airtight ruleset instead of looking for TO interpretations or rolling a die is massive for a competitive game. 40k balance also creates a miserable experience for many players which can even be felt significantly at the casual level. While Magic also occasionally has balance issues, they are usually much less egregious and addressed much faster. 40k tends to leave things for 6+ months which are broken enough that magic would have an emergency banning within the month or face the abandonment of the format.

[@left_Dane_right_Dane]

If you're looking for more competitive flavor once in a while, Kill Team is amazing. Much tighter ruleset, less variance, very precise movements. It's not quite as precise as say a chess game, as there's still dice involved, but the precise movement alone allows for very calculated plays. Kill Team still suffers from many of the same things as 10th, like a couple teams that need massive balances, but in general it's pretty well balanced and games outcomes are determined by player skill. But I play 10th for the list building fun, more mellow games, and more random variance that forces me to be more adaptive each round, I love playing tactical missions.

[@justindegagne]

An idea would be for them to release a paperback, B&W version of every codex all at once. Wait 6 months, make the edits based on the meta, and then send the finished product to print and sale. Then there would be true play testing and folks wouldn't feel back about tossing our a $20 printout when the 'fixed' rules are released, versus mark up an expensive hardcover with all the bloody edits that inevitably come out. The Finished version would then include all the narrative, history, and artwork that many people enjoy about the codex's.

[@firstamericanmanga6827]

for me i got into it just because the models looked cool and i wanted to paint them. now i have been playing for a couple years its great way to socialize with people.

[@mangost2008]

hopefully in 10th gw stops the crazy comp focus and makes it more casual, things like stratagem bloat and the fact that matched is the only really viable way to play just makes it unfun to play casually

[@WilWeeks]

not everything needs to become competitive and thats okay! the cool minis and the stories are why we are here

[@HeroSevenRacing]

One of the key design principles to popular esports games is accessibility. In these games skill is more important than time investment. 40K is not accessible. It takes ages to collect and paint an army. I’d rather play 40K for ‘rule of cool’ non competitively as it’s not a good competitive game.

[@newrenaissance]

Virtually none of the sports that ever existed were calculated with computer precision, yet were competitive. And underlying all of the other, more correct, point is a much more important and broad one - the game is not competitive because its was not created, designed and balanced for competitive. In other words, they players want it competitive but the game creators don't really want it competitive

[@Matt-sf9ky]

I think it's the opposite. There have been plenty of competitive games in history with terrible rules. Heck rules change all the time. The vast majority of options a player can take in any game aree objectively bad choices. It's the players. 40k players idea of competitive is a loosely goosey version that doesn't fly anywhere else. Take backs? Score fixing when somebody wants to quit or concede (or can't finish a game)? The vast majority of players accept basic things that'd get you disqualified or banned in any other type of competitive sport or event. And that's okay. Nothing wrong with having a casual game. But the people pretending that 40k is competitive in any way are deluding themselves. Because the event attending player base does not hold itself or the tournaments accountable to competitive play.

[@nurglematthew893]

Really Enjoyed This!! Thanks for playin' anyway. Best entertainment in the biz.

[@Fortunes.Fool.]

I’ve always treated this as a beer and pretzels game. I take it very seriously by eating plenty of beer and pretzels.

[@adamjanczewski6652]

Exactly that! And The Lore OFC! Thank You!

[@Maladictus]

Good video - I think the issues in the first slide you mentioned will never be overcome due to the physical nature of the game however GW can definitely help on the rules update side of things

[@mosselliadelt]

I practice for a lot of competitive and play league play, but i need to finish getting all my painting done before i actually play in a tournament

[@melodywallace4370]

omg that photo looks like you kidnapped joe

[@TabletopTitans]

He's ours now. Taken alive.

[@rob1n1206]

very good point. I think it's good to relax a bit while gaming. With my friends, there are moments where rules discussions can get heated or TILT happens due to some of those factors. I'm trying to combat this with pointing out the "problems" with the randomness & missing precision. What is everyone's solution to keep a good vibe, even if there is a stomp happening for example?

[@tommoolenaar3901]

Start throwing the game to make it closer I guess. Generally I keep a lot of units in reserve so I don't just roll over my opponent turn 1 or 2.

[@rob1n1206]

@@tommoolenaar3901 that's probably good, but could be a bit obvious. I'm trying to become a better winner but also loser :D

[@tommoolenaar3901]

@@rob1n1206 fair enough. I guess it depends what you're entering the game to accomplish. For me I just want to have a close game, win or lose. If I see the opponent knows what they're doing then I'll ramp up my game and be a bit trickier but if they're new or just casual then I'll mess around a bit.

[@rob1n1206]

@@tommoolenaar3901 hitting this balance works sometimes but other times it feels unintentionally unfair. Balance is an illusion obviously but close games are always the most fun in the end. After 1 year of playing it often times feels hard to get these close games we all prefer. haha

[@tommoolenaar3901]

@@rob1n1206 True. I think modern 40k is so killy that it's kinda hard to avoid these early game blood baths. Would be nice to see the extra damage and abilities stripped back or more defenisve bonuses given out to units although that could cause rules bloat.

[@thenathanimal2909]

Agreed. Games Workshop has terrible game design skills; Zero nuance or finesse

[@casparlykke1]

@Tabletop Titans... thanks for this new format, it's so refreshing to see something that not a 2 hours boring live stream, with a clickbait title/topic followed be a thumbnail with red arrows and shock face, to lure in the average Fortnite gamer. When there is an interesting topic to discuss or deep dive into. Can't express how this just warms my cold dead heart!

[@welderbear6757]

Want a competitive TT miniatures game try MCP. It has some quirks(mostly power creep) but it was created with competitive in mind.

[@luluhammer]

My problem with competitive 40k is it becoming the norm, and how if balanca becomes really a priority it will ruin 40k. 40k has to be out of balance to have the flavour of 40k, maybe not as all over the place but there is a point where general balance and competitive balance differ, where competitive balanca means the elimination of variables which translate into all being much of the same just a diffent colour and or sculpt. I moved to qa place where competitive has completely taken over and being outside any coutry with offical GW bussines, they dont even care for proxies nor painting their armies, and a year passed by since this became a thing and already clubs a shuttinng their doors cuz it became only hardcore competitive players that couldnt care less for 40k as 40k.

[@GrimrDirge]

I hate competitive 40k and all that it spawns. What I want is something closer to an RPG than a competition game.

[@trystongilbert1837]

Unfortunately I feel like the competitive rules trend right now results in models dying faster for the sake of speeding up the game. But that's less time you can have cool moments develop with your favorite model on the table for pictures and the like. It would be nice if there was a less lethal ruleset for when you were paying narratively or something and didn't mind taking all day, but as it is, Narrative play is just balanced even worse because it doesn't get points updates or constant scrutiny.

[@xommul79]

Someone in the edit is having fun. Wherever Adrian points to subscribe the icon appears in another location. It’s hilarious! Bet it’s Bridget. Or John, he’s a fiend!

[@EryxUK]

I'm not a fan of competitive play. 40K was never intended for it and the recent push for it is, in my opinion, the only bad aspect of the game. 40K plays so much better when people play casual, just having fun rolling dice and moving models. There's too much minutia involved these days.

[@rob1n1206]

at the beginning I naively thought that net-listing / copying tournament lists wouldn‘t be a thing because it‘s tedious to paint stuff just for it to perform but sadly it is often one thing many (me included) can not overlook. keeping a game of 40k completely free from competition is hard, I feel like

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

It was never intended to be competitive a wargame? What? Like that is the point of a wargame is to be competitive... else wise why did kings and generals play them back in the day?

[@EryxUK]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough 40K was always intended to be a more casual skirmish game over a full-blooded war game. All the way back to RT it was meant for the sort of play the game sees now. The more competitive they make it, the less appealing it becomes to a lot of people. That said it obviously has an appeal as the big tournaments show. But me for personally I find it works better when played for the casual side of the hobby.

[@BB-pn2qv]

It truly is, I don’t understand why or how people can do this.

[@flyingdutchman5583]

I fully agree the physical and social part, with the great community we have, are the great reasons for playing 40K and AoS!

[@shotou]

Oh wow my Dark Angels are rather OP now, which is not how I like to play. I've been playing my Ravenwing for years, and yes when Sammael made the bikes troops it was kind of like now, but wow my Terminators are so hard to shift.

[@BinxCat05]

40k is held back by three important too's: the game is too complex, the models are too expensive, and the game takes too long. I'm sure GW has done the math and like where they sit on the price elasticity curve but I can't help feel the current cash grab will cost them in the long run.

[@dimitarhristov8704]

Thank you good gentleman for making this obvious problem, a widely known fact for all my competitive new generation rulemongers at the LGC :) !

[@Napoleon1805]

As much as I love WH40K, a better title for this video would have been "Why 40k is a bad game and why we play it anyway"

[@katarhall3047]

Why a lot of channels as you've noticed have branched out to AoS, the balance generally there is more consistent.

[@acetraker1988]

*40k is a TCG with extra steps.*

[@cassiecaradoc2070]

There's a reason I enjoy Narrative campaigns much more than competitive play. If I wanted competitive mini's games, I would probably play Warmachine.

[@balemoran3168]

All of your negatives are specific to 40k, all of the positives can apply to any table top miniatures games, far far too many people play 40k as they know it and it is what you see everywhere. 40k is a bad game that people play because people play it.

[@rukusrenus]

This is why i dont like training in Tabletop simulator, no fis' dice rolls, no face-to-face interaction, no joy in moving and using models(even i have them irl, but u never can finde 1to1 in TTS, usuall many proxy model used) And TTS warhammer is what i can say most closer to MGL style, and its sucks

[@sir_quirkus7206]

the whole codex release timings confuses me.

[@Tehstampede]

The idea of a "competitive" game using what GW calls "true line of sight" to check target eligibility is hilarious.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

When you have a tiny minority of players demanding and getting their way to make a game that has for the longest time been more about role play and hobbying rather than numbers and efficiency and making the worst matchup possible for the opponent, than idk why people are surprised that it doesn’t work and yell at eachother over what’s better

[@sludgedisciple]

I have been playing 40K since the Rogue Trader era. The game has never been balanced, never. NOT ONCE, there has always been armies that were better than others, rules lawyers that exploited the rules, and or people that were cheesing and or power gamers trying to break the game. As soon as GW leaned into competitive, it just rewarded this behavior even further.

[@DCAMM720]

So I've been what I would call a student of game design for the past 15 years or so. I've mainly specialized in tabletop games from 40K to board games to competitive Magic the Gathering. I think the only thing that makes 40K "Bad" or "imbalanced" is simply its nature of asymmetry. This is a weird comparison to make, but I and others I study with like to compare it to League of Legends. There is a vast pool of models/champions, constant rules updates for these things with some being left behind(sometimes for years), and a constant inherent imbalance due to so much asymmetry. Yet it is one of the most popular competitive games on the planet. Asymmetry CAN work to have a near perfect balance(see SC2), but there's simply too much to make it perfectly balanced. I don't think this makes 40K a BAD competitive game, just a different type of competitive game. If it was truly that bad an unbalanced, certain players wouldn't win nearly consistently. I used to play Warmachine/Hordes and honestly believe that game is a far more balanced and chess-like game. The only thing is the models have been ugly for years and it isn't as epic in scope as 40K so it's fallen way out of favor. Someone once said "Privateer Press is a game company that also makes models, and GW is a model company that also makes games." And to this day I think that rings true. There's just nothing else on tabletop that can capture the epicness of charging marines up a board of terrain and fighting your opponent for supremacy.

[@brandonnicholas2871]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Would you recommend any books on game design or any other content for someone looking to become better at game design?

[@MrCitizen0]

Stop the toxicity games workshop as a company is alot better thrn most people tubers who keep complaining make it worse for the hobby. Tubers have a responsibility to uphold not making things worse especially since their channels are warhammer based if GW let's say shutdown then alot of channels would be dead

[@babelfish666]

I've not watched this yet and but I agree with the tag line

[@ComfortsSpecter]

Meh The competition is in the paint

[@maxgaj3015]

hard to argue that a game that has 3 hour rounds in a tournament setting could ever be a good competitive game. ideally 40k matches would be best of 3, and you would get to play enough rounds to determine a definitive victor. In RTTs you often don't have enough rounds to have only one undefeated player. there's no way to fix that, it's the nature of the game

[@dudemetslagroom8065]

UUUUUGH If i wasn't dead broke and there was an actual community for it here i'd play the shit out of this. For now i just have my little box of necrons that i haven't opened in years cuzz i'm still trying to move out.

[@sebastiantrost6409]

I strongly disagree on the d6. It is in my opinion the perfect choice because of the inherent variance of a single die (paired with its number of results - i.e. number of sides - working well with the rules). In 40k we roll a lot of dice, which leads to statistical results. Would you use dice with less variance (i.e. more sides and rounder shape), most rolls would be unnecessary as hitting the expectation value becomes exceedingly more likely: it becomes a very deterministic game. Think of chess with asymmetric factions - one side winning because of an inherent advantage becomes ,uch more likely. D6 40k has low and high rolls. These generate pressure on the field, as units fail charges or manage to survive. Loss managment is important to keep a unit above a critical size to keep variance low. It drives units like Death Guard Terminators, whose high toughness and optional miasma reduce incoming attacks to low count rolls so that their invuln can kick in. A 50-50 filter does little against 30+ wounding hits (like Tau, craftworlds, necrons can build for). Add T5 to reduce that and suddenly a squad can survive and force decisions on the opponent. At the same time, Orks and other high volume armies hit jast as you expect out of the gate. Only once they're thinned out, will variance kick in. Also the d6 is cheap and widely available. D8/10/12 have become more available, but its still quite a difference iv you buy dozens of them (and they store less cleanly).

[@justindegagne]

D10 would allow for more variation in unit and weapons though

[@augustochuko]

The intentional Power Creep and use of FOMO to drive sales regardless of the detriment to actual game balance is unacceptable. Stopped playing this game last year. Way better games to play with friends out there. As table top gamers we now have more choices than ever. Don't settle for mediocrity. give your money to a game that actually makes you happy.

[@coryway6951]

Just saying, Open Page Rules Grimdark Future is a really stripped-down version of 40k that has alternating action and plays much faster. Plus, it is free for just the base rules, you can pay a small one-time fee for more complex rules. Lastly, they have an online army builder. Give it a try if you feel 40k is getting to expensive with codexes and bogged down in rules bloat.

[@william3958]

it’s also boring as shit after the first few games. breadth and depth of a puddle

[@cyanideinmycereal1077]

Warhammer will never be 100% competitive because it's scope is far far far too big. Imagine a video game trying to balance 20+ characters (factions) with 15-25+ abilities (units) that can be modified with upwards of 20 upgrades (stratagems) as well as 10-15 perks (WT's and Relics), some of which stack, some of which go on things they're not supposed to, and then also figuring out how each unique faction interacts with, ignores, is strong or weak against, or outright hard-counters another faction, all of which can be circumvented by the players individual choices on a board (to a degree). It's scale ultimately limits how balanced it can be. Ultimately, the fun of wh40k is the spectacle, and trying to make the best of your resources and position against your friend's, which is doing the same thing with increasing difficulty as the game goes on. It can't be 100% balanced and competitive, because it's literally too big and too versatile to be. I also don't really think tabletop games SHOULD be 100% balanced but that's a redpill I don't think the world is ready for lol.

[@Matt-sf9ky]

A game doesn't need to be balanced to be competitive. Most sports have tons of things you CAN do... Just won't work out for you. 40k equivalent is using a weak army at that time. Two separate discussions really, being competitive and balance.

[@maverick4242]

When you say "time and time again" time and time again...

[@VelcroSnake93]

40k seems like a game mostly designed just to sell more miniatures.

[@ratedr8490]

Blood angels being able to make you lose your inv save and make you fight last is absolutely bonkers.

[@CromTheDestroyer]

What if I told you Custodes did that and also had a -1 attack aura in melee, turned off your rerolls and had a hit / would transhuman? That's the Blade Champion for Shadowkeepers 🏆

[@ratedr8490]

@Big Sam I'd say I'm a horrible custodes player that sucks do bad I'm about to get out of the hobby after 30yrs.

[@ratedr8490]

@Big Sam his inv turn off ability is only against the unit he is attacking. The Aura blood angels get affects everyone on the opposing side. Blood angels still would top custodes in combat everytime with that combo. The game is broken beyond belief.

[@warpseer]

how can they do that?

[@ratedr8490]

@@warpseer who?

[@ericsmith9212]

The problem is,40k was not meant to be balanced. I laugh at you competitive players because you keep trying to change the game to make it even,yet create these killer optimized lists that end a game by turn 2. Tournament play has hurt 40k immensely. If you all played in the early days you would have the same views. The game was much more enjoyable back then because we were not trying to create killer lists,we played to have FUN. Not win a trophy.

[@stuart5350]

Great video!

[@Spacefrisian]

We play it competitivly cause Privateer Press dropped the ball way back on Warmahordes which was a better competitiv tabletop wargame.

[@Pariah13x]

Wait, you think Warhammer has a fast rule turn around time? Most esports games balance update everyother week and then just have a lock in for major tournaments.

[@haraldhenning897]

It's a shame that you only contrasted 40k against "non tabletop wargames" and not against other competitors in the market that deal with many of the issues you mentioned in the first half waaaay better then GW does while still fulfilling all the aspects of the "pro" sides. Only downside of those is that they are smaller, but a platform as large as yours would lend itself to look beyond your bubble ... or not ...

[@KongGig]

I love to watch w40k matches on Yt^^

[@redzeroluevont138]

Amen.

[@josegamez1862]

❤❤❤Joe from Wargames Live pic❤❤❤

[@stax6092]

Good Talk.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

So iyou come back for the same reasons as any sport including Esports?

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Wait how arre D6s swingy? I picked them for mmyy game because you can easly mangage the swing(Also they are avable anywhere.) It's just 40k that makes it swingy by making the chances low... Like compared to all other dice/coins D6s are by far the most maganble one... D10+ are more swingy because more numbers... D4- are more swingy because less numbers... Now if you mean dice sure but Pokémon, World of Tank can get swingy regadless.

[@billiondollarclownfarm]

lmao fastest i've ever clicked on a video

[@Matt-sf9ky]

I play 40k casually or narratively for the reason that 40k is not a competitive game. It could be even with all the issues, but 40k players are fundamentally not competitive minded. If you ask any tournament players to adhere to the rules that any truly competitive event would require... They lose their minds. You mean Ill be disqualified if I don't finish games? You mean I can't fix my points with another player instead of finishing a game? You mean that I have to play by the rules and not use a dozen take backs every game? 40k can't be a truly competitive game because the players, up to an including the top tables, do not want to play by any of type of socially acceptable competitive rules. And the event organizers don't hold players to rules. So embrace the narrative and casual aspects of the game. That's where it shines and that's what is actually being played, even at the big tournaments.

[@rob1n1206]

So even at top tables people can‘t keep track of everything? phew, that‘s good to hear 😄

[@Matt-sf9ky]

@@rob1n1206 either can't or won't. End of day even the top players are playing a semi home brewed version of the game. Doesn't mean that they are bad at the game, but they play very fast and lose with the rules.

[@angryskeletonpope2334]

You play it because it's all anyone plays. It's like D&D 5e, and why both must die.

[@elzordack4589]

E sports...

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

40k is a broken bloated mess. Anyone who thinks it is competitive is deluded.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

4:02 You can fix all of these thing though many games have but GW refuses to.

[@albundy5492]

they are a model company that has to make rules to sell books if they couldn't sell rules they'd probably let some folks who knew how to balance a game make the rules

[@beatooze8025]

Real, true, competitive 40k. Okay, let's look; (1) A table top that can track units both above and below in "real time". Link your army with the board and tracking begins. (Not yet invented but it can be) (2) rules designed for speed play. What I mean by this: - Streamlined movement - Streamlined saves - Streamlined bonuses This does not mean loss of immersion as a final product but for this discussion think cardboard terrain and toothpick models. (Chess at a world competition can take hours not to mention risk and monopoly.) (3) Build a culture that reinforces competitive play. Add a time tracking element for competition play (or practice) as a point metric. What does this accomplish: - mastering an Army = more time points - less second guessing = more points - more confident plays at higher risk = more points Again, all of this is not about killing immersion. It is about competition play not narrative play. (When I played MTG competitively, I added a time tracker in practice and found my own skills sky rocket due to it. Now my whole group still used an Egg timer even in commander) (4) the big one... GW needs to switch from a narrative game designer to a competitive game designer. The end result is still a narrative game with deep immersion BUT at a tournament, the "Fluff" can be stripped away and a competitive war can begin. This is the 'very hard and not profitable' avenue that GW would need to turn to. So, 10th is coming. One RUMOR is that 40k is getting rid of the STR v TUF roll. If true: - Speed change - Combat streamline - Less rules This is indicative of competitive tournament play. This *if true* is a move by GW for less of a narrative focus without compromising Immersion. Can it happen. Yes. And my Necrons are ready.

[@andrewcrane5105]

If you wanna be competitive do a sport, if you wanna have fun, play warhammer lol

[@wolfinstedd]

Person I think GW need get all codex out and then 1 year with all codex-out just let game breathe before rushing headlong into next edition . 40k just feel to much about rush ,rush ,rush to get exit book/models or Ed, maybe it internet but Just feel like we getting no time with 9th as full game as intended.

[@nathanculver9252]

Spicy

[@mattallen9629]

To me it's simple, 40k for sweaty players, star wars legion for chilled players, mesbg for chads

[@lloydjamieson2143]

This is way I really believe Warcry can be a competitive game due to speed of the game and simple rules.

[@Hiihtopipa]

Why play it competitive lol sounds stupid. Just play it for fun like it was meant!

[@Amity45]

You didn't mention how prohibitively expensive it is to play competitively. Both time and money.

[@WardenOfTerra]

You play it because Brian has invested far too much into the channel lmfao

[@troublemaker9899]

Your complaints are that it's based on D6, and that it takes a few hours to play. That's some of the most incoherent BS I've ever seen.

[@albundy5492]

boycott time we want all armies to have rules within 6 months of edition release so data slates will actually help since all armies will be being balanced at one time