Why Are DOOM Fans Still Arguing About This..?

[@Midnighthalo]

Does lore fit DOOM?

[@-Grey-]

Obviously.

[@oldmanregret]

Yes absolutely

[@derautisadrianos7050]

Of course

[@DoomSlayer-87]

Doom is better now because of lore

[@MrG_-pn9fv]

Yes

[@LordMegatron-qk2gz]

I feel like people wouldn't have this problem if Doom had extended lore like Halo and Star Wars, and the games solely focus on gameplay, while having a bit of story. You could say the same thing about CoD and Wolfenstein

[@keonkla]

If doom had extended lore like halo, My love for it would be even greater loool. Doom beats halo in gameplay atm by a landslide.

[@fadhilahzaidan4946]

@@keonkla Couldn't agree more,this franchise needs to be expanded.

[@fumoshi1]

It's ok, but Halo games and Star Wars games and movies has storytelling perse, each time you control masterchief you got some cinematic explanation on why you are doing the things you do Doom 2016 and Eternal is doing the minimal lore, I think it's ok because you can fully ignore it and still enjoying the game. I hope they extend the game lore with some new "Doom Bible" or something. But I think it's totally ok if some players are not interested on it at all

[@koyo3376]

Halo has more than “a bit of story”

[@Wreckingballblu]

@@koyo3376 he meant Doom could have only a bit of story in game while having outside lore.

[@nikitafeoktistov8029]

The lore bits were my favorite personally. It made me feel like such a badass as I killed demons in the next section

[@AnthonyBlamthony]

Exactly like the UAC “O my God it’s him” scene in Eternal. I have no idea how anyone can hate on that lol

[@Light_910]

The very beginning of Doom 2016 will always be my favorite intro to a character and what he's about. That moment when Doom Slayer throws the tablet, I was like 'Oh yeah. This is gonna be one Helluva ride!" Even when he looks down at the dead guy in the elevator while the UAC thing is playing. So good. But yeah, Doom's story doesn't need to be complicated. Backstories like eternal's weren't the best, it's convoluted and messy and doesn't make sense at times. But whatever. I'm not playing doom for story. I play games like zelda, the witcher, or Fallout for story.

[@mado-wh4jv]

I heard a lot of people saying "It makes no sense", but I don't see where these contradictions you're talking about are.

[@chrisbriault7234]

As a guy who loves horror and played doom as a kid, and got legit scared where I didn’t want to progress because it was dark, then getting to play doom 3 really brought me back as a kid playing the original.

[@dounatchutny2094]

I think that DOOM has one of the best lores

[@Nin_the_Shinobi]

If Doom didn't have lore then would would have never gotten "THE DOOM SLAYER". The transition from Doom guy to Doom Slayer was sick

[@lethalbroccoli01]

its still doomguy though

[@monkaWGiga]

@@lethalbroccoli01 I think there point they're making is how Doom Guy went from a normal marine to this almost mythical character of the Doomslayer due to his feats between Doom 64 and Doom 2016.

[@Eric_Nomad_Hixtone]

@@monkaWGiga he's not almost. He's a literal God

[@keatonkitsune4064]

@@monkaWGiga Him being a normal marine was better. Literally being too angry to die and becoming a demon killing machine on his own is way better.

[@williamsmith666]

Yeah OK...you "rip and tear" kids are just making Doom worse for the rest of us...

[@doomboi1592]

I remember seeing a comment section of people talking about the lore for doom and stuff like that and this certain comment that i saw went something like this "Video game characters deserve being more than just a avatar to control, happy to see the devs give some character to Doomslayer. I feel the franchise should just move on from Carmack's old and dated quote and embrace story, like a campaign playing as Commander Valen or a sentinel soldier in the middle of the civil war. Let the story be more than just a codex page please." and i 1000% agree with that and really hope that id software is slowly moving towards that path.

[@mado-wh4jv]

Yes, and then you have people literally begging for the next DoomSlayer to be an "Ageless-Faceless-Gender-Neutral-Culturally-Ambiguous-Adventure-Person"

[@doomboi1592]

@@mado-wh4jv i just want some more story elements to the series and character to the main man himself is all, i didnt even know people like that existed in the community

[@Thrasher_d]

I never figured out why DooM 3 was deemed a “failure”. Like only people who weren’t really there for it’s release, I can recall so many people being hyped for it. It’s personally one of my favorite games. And when it was released it was the most sold doom game at the time.

[@ArDeeMee]

Doom 3 is a bad game in the way the Doom movie was a bad movie. I quite enjoyed it. It is a solid action movie with some freakish mutated monsters thrown in, and some really nice character hooks. It is NOT, however, a Doom movie. And I‘m quite frustrated that they tacked on the name, in classic Hollywood „video game movie“ fashion. (Flashback to the cheesy af obligatory first person shooter segment…) The movie and D3 as standalones are fine. With a different name, both would be a solid 7/10, which is high average.

[@Kurikost_]

i am a hardcore doom player since 1983 and i love the story about doom. For me, it improved the game.

[@Redneck_Hero]

Did you mean 1993? Doom wasn't out in 1983

[@thegamingbean953]

Typo?

[@jasonturek6671]

Dudes such a hardcore doom fan that he got to play the game 10 years early 💀

[@TheAkrillion]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you meant to type 1993 but it's a typo and you wrote 1983. It's not out of the question, considering 8 and 9 are right next to each other and can be typo'd when typing quickly.

[@Kurikost_]

@@thegamingbean953 yeah typo..sorry

[@sugmaphatnutz]

I love the lore and story line for the doom franchise, however I did not like the fact that Samuel Hayden turned out to be some angel and so did Vega. I preferred how it was in DOOM 2016 where Hayden was a scientist robot cyborg dude and Vega was the artificial intelligence companion of DoomGuy. Other than that I love the flow and the story. Plus the cutscenes are skippable so how does it slow down the gameplay?

[@DangerousArmyGuy]

Honestly, would have been better if Samuel was originally a human like in his picture in 2016, but he met Samur and they worked together in secret, but Samuel never survived his brain cancer in the end and Samur took over for him.

[@sugmaphatnutz]

@@DangerousArmyGuy Exactly, the ancient gods dlc lore ruined Dr Hayden

[@MagentiumPRIME]

@@sugmaphatnutz haha robot turned heavenly god dies by shotgun brrrrrrr

[@Challerz]

I agree 👍 Doom 2016 was perfect storytelling. It was simple but well done. Then Eternal became nerdy and cringe imo. Being so over the top that to me became a joke. Wish it could be subtle like Doom 2016 again but it's too late now.

[@sugmaphatnutz]

@@Challerz I enjoyd the story for the most part of eternal as it felt as a sequel to 2016 (Which is was obviously), however they over did it with the lore and the gods and it made Doomguy less interesting. Before eternal, Doomguy was a marine soldier on Mars who was the only survivor and battles his way to save earth, then he got godly stength and led an army to kill of the demons. Now it turns out hes just a clone of the 'God' and was never human. What a way to ruin the story.

[@hobes6845]

IMO, its less that DooM didn't need a story, but rather DooM didn't need /this/ story. An angry dude taking down the forces of hell is baddass, making him into a demigod is less badass.

[@doomslayer7719]

Lore needs DooM like DooM needs lore. If the narratives of the few audio files throughout DooM 2016 and DooM Eternal get you jazzed, then the question is quite simply answered before it's even asked. DooM is a pretty well thought out experience, and a reason why can bring players back for more experience, as well as a way to insert the player more effectively into the overall storyline. Come for the gameplay, stay for the story of the experience. And I think this is the true rub. There needs to be a way to draw the player into the sell of the story to keep going and also coming back for more.

[@adamberthiaume309]

Doom 16 was fine, there's a basic motivation for each character and that's it. Doom Eternal completely went back on that philosophy and retconned simple character motivation into wacky, muddled mythology about reincarnations of demigods and heck knows what.

[@solidsnake8008]

I think the only issue with lore or story in DOOM is when it halts the gameplay, like when you're locked in a room or elevator waiting for someone to finish talking so you can progress. Having a story in a DOOM should never overshadow the gameplay, but it should do the bare minimum of setting up the events of the game.

[@AnthonyBlamthony]

But…that’s literally what doom does

[@solidsnake8008]

@@AnthonyBlamthony True, things like the samuel hayden first meeting in DOOM 2016 halt the gameplay, that's what I was trying to point out.

[@SomeCowguy]

Yeah, whenever im doing some kill runs or secret runs, the level with samuel hayden meeting is never picked. I just hate the 1-2 minutes of nothing when he talks about things i have heard him say upwards of 20 times now

[@mado-wh4jv]

@@SomeCowguy Many games have a similar problem and its solution is as simple as adding a skip button, not an exclusion of those moments. Imagine if the meeting and the ending were just messages in the corner of the screen.

[@wildos2916]

The reason why I got hooked onto the Doom series was because 1. I like RPG games, and seeing that the latest Doom game has some RPG aspects in it, I found it interesting. 2. It had an interesting story or lore. Knowing the reason that the protagonist was doing what he was doing because his family and pet were killed by these demonic entities is understandable in a way. 3. Who we are up against. I usually would not play shooting games for the soul reason that you are killing other people. In Doom, you aren't killing people. You are killing the enhabitance of hell things that thrive off of the death and suffering of humans and other organisms.

[@billyboy8534]

I don't hate DOOM's lore; I just find it very confusing and muddled. We're given enough lore in Doom 2016 to make it interesting. However, in Eternal, it just seemed like they were cramming as much as possible into the game, to the point where it was hard to follow. Maybe the next installment will have more cohesive lore.

[@noahpohomovs8561]

BRO, i love doom so mutch, and i cant stop loving it, and some ppl have Are trying to make me hate it, but i just cant, and i tell them that no matter what happends i will still love doom, I FUCKING LOVE IT!!!

[@lethalbroccoli01]

based

[@osirisruiz492]

i really like the story of the new doom, its there and there is more if you want to read it

[@oinka720]

I played doom eternal without previously playing doom 2016. I saw doomguy living in a flying castle in space and talking to his AI buddy like he's Tony Stark and said "WTF happened?". Then we meet king novik and I have no idea who this is and then we meet the betrayer and I have no idea who this is and the story just feels weird and incomplete. Maybe I just missed that stuff because I didn't play 2016 or because I didn't want to read the codex. I don't mind having a bit of a story in doom; I just wish the story wasn't so weird and incomplete.

[@vegitoblue2187]

Problem with Eternal was lore was spammed in the codex. 2016 was better in that aspect as you will found out most stuff via gameplay without needing to open the codex.

[@thesiselchannel]

IMO DOOM Does need a story. But not an over the top compicated super layered lore stories like in idk…mass effect or something… DOOM always had a story, since the first couple: you are a space marine who found himself in the midst of an demonic invasion of the UAC science corporation stationed on mars due to some failed teleportation experiments. Kill them all and send them back to hell, seal the portal , boom you win, same thing in doom 2 and doom 3. And thats where DOOM needs to stay at, a simplistic plot with super fun gameplay with nostalgic atmosphere of the 90s and with kickass music. Thats what DOOM is for me. I like all DOOM’s including DOOM 3 , even though that game is different from its counterparts. It still has this sci fi atmospheric feel to it , and the game is really invested , you can feel that the devs dedicated their time and effort in that game , even though it looks different from DOOM 1&2. In conclusion: DOOM already has a story and its dumb and fun and gory just like we like it ,right guys?

[@julianensor4416]

In my honest opinion, DOOM with lore is fine, but I feel the main divide comes in the complexity of it. The main issue for me is that Eternal's lore seems a bit to pretentious in it's presentation, where as DOOM 2016 was more simple and concise. A story about man's hubris getting the best of them and causing their downfall sounds a lot better than oodles of techno - magic jargon. There really wasn't a need to to include the Makyrs or Urdak into the story as they weren't mentioned anytime beforehand.

[@johnedelmann6711]

It's not necessarily that it has too much story, entirely. It's that the lore is messy. It tried to incorporate classic Doom with Doom 2016's lore and it turned into at least kind of a mess.

[@Robster881]

I don't hate the idea of story in Doom. I just don't think a lot of the backstory and "lore" they created for Doom Eternal was very interesting. At least, all the bits outside of the Doomguy to Doom Slayer arc.

[@bobthebuilder5213]

Completely agree with u midnight & happy new year!!!.

[@marklarz4399]

Yeah, a game needs some story but not 75% of the game being cutscenes

[@solidsnake8008]

Totally agree

[@Dargonhuman]

Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts: "Why you gotta call us out like that? Not cool."

[@AnthonyBlamthony]

That’s not even the case with doom though. The ratio for a modern doom game is more like 90% gameplay 10% cut scenes. I don’t even think that’s the argument, I think the argument is that there’s cut scenes in doom *at all* older players want modern doom to basically have no cut scenes.

[@toooydoeur]

Not at all for both sides, games dont need stories and games can also be mostly story and cutscenes

[@b4ttlefront4rcher]

I really liked the story for DOOM universe as introduced to me in the reboot. I actually was opposite side of the fence I was disappointed we didn't get enough context of the universe in TAG2. I would really like to see a perspective of the Hell invasion from ARC personnel or other Marines. My only criticism with TAG2 is it didn't feel written as well as TAG1 or the base game

[@celestialecho9817]

the argument that "doom doesn't need lore" is the dumbest thing a human can say. doom has a great story, its completely insane but in a good way. Doom lore is fun and adds to the already great experience, if you don't like it then ignore it, you aren't forced to watch the cutscenes

[@brody4087-z4x]

I think having lore for a game like Doom is practically necessary, if you want people to talk about the game for any extended period of time. However, I personally really don't like the direction of Doom Eternal's story. I loved Doom 2016, and I the main story was ok, but what I really liked was the hidden story. The stuff that wasn't pointed out to you directly. It added some mystery and Intrigue. Eternal doesn't really have that, it kind of forces the story on you. Also, the story got kind of bland. Most of the stuff in Eternal just felt like the creators wanted to add cool stuff, and then throw a backstory on it to try and make it make sense. Like, "We want big robots!" so they add big robots and then come up with some contrived reason for there to be big robots, instead of making a story a first, and then working the "big robots" into the story naturally. I don't know, Eternal's story just felt so token, it lost the mystery and secrecy behind Doom 2016. And let's be honest, that cutscene of Doomguy talking was so dumb, it did not work at all. They make him sound like such an idiot. And the whole Dark Lord being "you, from there world"... makes NO fucking sense, and neither does Samuel Hayden being the seraphim. That still has me so confused, like they wrote that whole story of him being a human scientist who had cancer, and thus discovered mind transference to be able to live longer and continue his scientific endeavors, which was a cool and interesting backstory. But then, in Eternal, they seemed to have just kind of thrown that away to make him the "spooky and mysterious hooded figure that gave the slayer his power".

[@Rockeman182]

Yeah I agree with you on the Doom Eternal story lore. It got kind of insane that Samuel Hayden was actually Samur Makyr, in the form of angel looking over the Slayer's shoulder and giving him power. The story and atmosphere of Doom 2016 are much preferred, which overall makes me love that game slightly more. Doom Eternal is great but the lore is incoherent and confusing and doesn't really add up, at least in my mind. Overall, they started strong with the story and then took it in a weird direction.

[@unknownuser6940]

I doubt many will read this long comment, but here I go. I think it's a matter of preferences and how the game handles the story. Some people just want to play and enjoy a game without the baggage of a story due to sour stories existing; would you want to play a game where you, as player wanting to do good, can only do actions that are either in vain and or outright wrong longterm? In an example below, I highlight that being tired of negative outcomes akin to real life can really turn off my enjoyment of a game. If it did so for me, it likely did so for others. Stories can also have the opposite and positive effect, where the game is nothing or worse without it. People are allowed to not want a complex story, or a game that gives too much to story instead of necessary gameplay. I think that's the issue, and potentially how people don't want negative consequences to their actions in game (which, I can't really blame, it's escapism from real life). Am I asking for all games to have a story? Not at all, mainly just discussing why players may feel this way about stories in games. There are games without a story, even if I find it personally boring, I can understand players wanting to play. Gmod and base game Minecraft (mostly), for example. People get tired of stories and just want to have fun. Having stories with sour endings can certainly cause a fatigue of stories. I, for example, abandoned Battlefield Hardline after I found out the main character was going to go full criminal, despite doing everything right and could have been a good cop. It really soured my experience as a whole because I wanted a happy ending, something everyone wants in life but is denied or hindered too frequently. Does it make it necessarily bad? No, but I think this "bad story fatigue" in any form can do this to a person. Games are absolutely boosted by stories, and it should be optional. Hell, even having little bits of mystery in a lack of a story can be enticing and would lead us to make our own. That freedom is a factor too. Minecraft is a great example of this (at least was a great example). People would speculate on the meanings in this eerie environment, and make their conclusions. With a canon story, it can greatly hinder this room for creativity. Of course, games can be too simple on their own, but with a story saving it and propelling it to the top. It's the soul in a bundle of code, and people sometimes just want to rest their own souls or give them flight.

[@alistaircallow7358]

Doom 3 is a horror game more than an action game

[@Dargonhuman]

And it's a damn competent horror game too, which was always the intent. The fact that model doesn't really fit Doom's "personality" is the only failing of that game - if it was called anything else and not attached to the Doom franchise, I believe it would have been incredibly successful.

[@monkaWGiga]

@@Dargonhuman Definitely agree there. A lot of what it did worked really well for a horror game.

[@garrettcasperson3089]

Lore is important. In 1990 it wasn't hard up but it needs to be there nowadays. Doom 16 and eternal wouldn't work if there was no story! Its not 1990 anymore

[@w1ndt]

5:14 basically summarizes why games need a story.

[@jollysword]

Exactly. A game's story has to answer why your character is in the game world in the first place.

[@JosephJoestar-xu8fz]

The thing is It's Doom not The Last of Us or Half-Life I really don't care about an epic story All I need is a lore that explains what is happening probably and giving context that's pretty much it

[@MB-px7iu]

Having a story and lore definitely helps the game shine. Doom has a mediocre story at best which is fine. The gameplay is why I play the game. But it is nice to have background for the characters and places in doom

[@WatchesOriginal]

Yea but they can't make up their minds and keep it consistent

[@xsavazz]

Got the platinum for DOOM ETERNAL it definitely deserves to have lore as any story related title should(Yes DOOM is a story game afterall as much as it is an fps game)

[@Lord_Samael_de_Monasteriis]

The new lore is good for folk who enjoy it, and all good games need cinematics. After reading Sandy Peterson's work when Shareware Doom released, everything else kinda feels like someone else took over writing his book. I guess that's just the old player gripe though...

[@Darek_B52]

Doom always had a story. Now if you want to say the modern story is overdone/bloated fine. I think 2016 had just the right amount.

[@brody4087-z4x]

I'm with you on that point. I liked that 2016 had the basic surface level story to explain what you were there for, and for the lore nerds you have the codex entrees that explain more of the backstory. Eternal just throws so much stuff in your face that doesn't need to be there or just downright doesn't make sense.

[@ORLY911]

I would actually argue Eternal could've used a bit more exposition, there's such a gap between 2016 and Eternal I'm honestly still not sure what exactly happened to get the Slayer out of stasis, maybe there was a promotional comic for it that came out i dunno

[@alistaircallow7358]

5:41 I love Warhammer 40K lore

[@CheckeredPony]

its not that i have a problem with story in doom its that i have a problem with THE story in doom, doom supposed to be the top G of shooters, if you're gonna make a story this detailed make it interesting and challenge the audience like the gameplay. back then it wasn't expected but it was a nice treat like: "why am i an angry guy shooting demons on mars?" "because your a soldier who punched an officer and was sent to mars as punishment when an experiment gone wrong that opened a portal to literally hell also your angry because the demons killed your pet rabbit". now its just like: "why am i an angry guy shooting demons on mars?" "BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE PROPHECY A MILLION YEARS AGO THAT ONLY YOU WILL SAVE HUMANITY FROM THE HELL DEMONS THAT ARE NOT ACTUALLY DEMONS FROM HELL BUT ARE ALIENS FROM A DIFFERENT DIMENSION WHO FEED OF ANCIENT ENERGY THAT YOU ALSO FEED ON BECAUSE YOU HAVE A SUPER SUIT THAT WAS MADE BY WHOEVER FOR THE CHOOSEN ONE, THE BOY WHO LIVED, THE SPECIAL, THE HERO ON A JOURNEY". come on, either you stop making everything sound like its every sonic OCs backstory or give us good writing. there's enough gary stus in fiction and a story doesn't need to be dumbed down to be a good power fantasy.

[@_BillsMafia_]

Lord is crucial in Dooms growth and debates

[@HaroldIsSwag]

I don’t really care about dooms lore, sure it’s cool and it’s there for the people who want it, but I just like being a cool green demon slaying badass

[@ilikewater1575]

There’s an easy fix to not wanting lore in doom: “press r to skip cutscene”

[@scientist368]

Doom has an epic story.

[@travypine]

Doesn’t the original Doom have lore at the end when you finish a episode that you can read?

[@Vorticough]

yeah

[@fermit_thekrog1720]

Most the story in Doom 2016 and eternal is through Codex and is in words the rest is just cutscenes and dialogue.

[@majamystic256]

I'm not against the idea of doom having a story and cut-scenes I just feel mixed on how the new doom games story was executed

[@ShmuckLord385]

I'd say Marathon was very important to the evolution of vidya game stories as well, and it's my personal opinion that marathon actually inspired a lot of half life. Think about it, it's one of the first shooters to have an actual narrative that affects the game, and it has environments that are actually representative of a place.

[@gooseedits7165]

I having mixed bag between story and gameplay. For my perspective, some gamer didn't care much about story, unless you're the guy who love the story. Yes you didn't need a story for making the game more successful. With gameplay wise and some quality, the game speak itself (seems people replied my message and says "the game speak itself, what you mean, Star Wars?" Doom originally was only the game that implemented of fast paced shooter, you play as marine, kill every demon by your own and making progress. After half life era, it become more immersive where storyline become important to build their games, plus without storyline, you didn't know what's going on or who they're, most people didn't read the manual where that's where all the storyline and background tells you what story from the game looks like. Now we have codex and some information about these game like halo, doom and etc in order for understanding the fantasy that created by developer itself. Basically, I didn't care much about story and campaign. I like more towards on killing and hack n slashes, big blow with ranged weapon. That's all matter, nothing I can wished more than gameplay.

[@matttiberius1900]

Doom 2016 had it right. When the game gives you lore the Slayer just rips the monitor out of the wall.

[@mobgabriel1767]

saying that lore doesn't belong in doom is like saying that lore doesn't belong in kirby

[@samuelevander9823]

This is a little bit complex in a sense that Doom has been many things throughout the years and means different things to different people. While the new Id Software has created some nice lore for the Doom games, which has made the series more interesting, as it has affected things in the campaign, such as environmental storytelling. Now more levels tell a story with its location and what's happening. But there are many people who grew up with the old games & enjoyed Doom as a dungeon crawler and not a cinematic experience or as a codex book. It's not wrong for them to put gameplay first and expecting them to deal with the fact that the franchise has been drastically changed from its humble beginnings is going to cause controversy to say the least. You know who you are & where you fall with Doom's game design. Arguing about it is pretty pointless because Doom has changed & people are different with different interests.

[@AnthonyBlamthony]

But that’s the thing though it’s not a cinematic experience or a codex. Like a 30 second cutscene in between two hours of gameplay should not be considered “cinematic” lol and I don’t get the point with the codex because it’s not really required. Like if you don’t care about the codex.. it really doesn’t matter because it doesn’t affect game flow in any way.

[@samuelevander9823]

@@AnthonyBlamthony Have you even played the classics? 30 second cutscene already ruins the flow of gameplay. This is not Half-Life 2 or Halo. It's Doom, which was about fast-paced dungeon crawling. There was flow to that game. Doom 2016 constantly impedes that to deliver exposition in the form of VEGA or Olivia or Samuel saying stuff in a closed room that shouldn't matter & could be easily said through the radio just like the rest of the dialoque. Doom Eternal is worse in this regard because it constantly pauses to show an environmental puzzle when you pull a lever or to deliver a short cutscene. It is a big deal to the older fans, because what was supposed to be a gameplay first experience is constantly at odds with story exposition or environmental cues. And yeah, the Codex is out of the way but many don't care about it & attempts to read those entries just takes away from the gameplay and impedes that flow. And not reading it just renders it a pointless gimmick anyway. I think I've played the devil's advocate long enough here but it does matter to those who wanted something else from these new doom games.

[@general0mega]

2016/Eternal story is someone's very specific fan fiction inspired by the original and it's no worse than the 1995/1996 novels and the 2005 movie, and nobody remembers those. The reason this one will stick is that it released in its native media, developed by a studio that happens to have the name of id Software. If there's a problem with the story it's because, even up through Doom 3, it was never about "Doomguy." There was a light plot, but the "guy" was a nameless participant, the player, doing his best in whichever way and for whatever purpose the player chooses. This was always a deliberate design decision. id, the _original_ id, could have chosen to give the character a name, backstory, and specific motivation. Any claim that they didn't do this due to resource limitations is BS, sorry. Go play Wolfenstein 3D. Hell, go take a look at Catacomb. For those who care about storytelling, not just some quantifiable amount of plot, this is a dramatic change in the narrative style.

[@TheSuperGoober]

I love Lore, so Doom is like a dream

[@paradoxxproductions4784]

How tf does doom's story slow down gameplay when it's entirely comprised of comepletely optional readable codex entries and skippable cutscenes? mfs be mad just to be mad

[@p.snowman7492]

I feel this is the exact YT video i have been looking to view my entire life. 100% agreement on all points, and every single thing you referenced here brought me joy and nostalgia. Three thumbs up

[@p.snowman7492]

In regards to Doom's story: The issue with it, in Doom's case ( I love vg stories in general, huge MGS1, Zelda, and HL fan) is the story in the originals was never given via exposition that stole from the player's agency. So a minimal, but still a biblical epic of one man vs the forces of evil, became a strong association with doomi. Most of the story was told to you using textures, bodies and weird images, and the titles of the maps. It's about the purist, most powerful form of dopamine that a human brain could possible secrete, all in a slightly cringey B horror kind of way, constantly, for hours on end. It's story was cheesy, like the absurd stories before that inspired it's developers. Don't get me wrong. A cheesy story isn't bad. D3? Cringey? Check, but it also helped cement the world as realistic and paved the way for the near perfect VR mod we have now. but I recognize it's in sacrifice of part of the franchise's DNA. I think Doom works better with less, but increasingly absurd (explicit) storytelling moments.

[@CotDKeiKun]

I just have three words for you: I absolutely agree! :)

[@soul_prodigy1016]

Doom wouldn't be as loved today if it didn't have any lore. The game is gameplay first, you can skip the cutscenes and the lore can be read anytime you want to. Also the new God of War games have a huge focus on narrative. Every game like Doom, God of War, Warhammer 40k and Elder Scrolls needs lore otherwise, as a player you will never truly understand why you need to do the things that are being asked of you in the game.

[@bluefire1223]

If there’d be no story then it would feel mindless. Like why am I killing these demons? I get it because they’re demons they’re evil but what exactly am I killing them for? A coherent story gives the game a sense of depth and purpose to the player.

[@Dargonhuman]

Exactly. You can't just throw a bunch of random pieces of wood, rope, rubber and metal tubes on the grass and tell kids "this is a playground, have fun." You have to build the different slides, bridges, swings, platforms, and so on in order for the playtime to have literal and figurative structure. You can't just throw a bunch of random guns, powerups, enemies and rooms into a game and expect it to be fun, there has to be some sort of structure to bring a sense of cohesiveness and direction to those elements for them to be fun, which is the function plot and story are supposed to serve in a game. Even in allegedly "randomized" games like roguelikes and battle royale games, there's still an underlying structure of story that gives players a reason for starting new games over and over.

[@Watcher-hh4mu]

zoomer detected. go watch a movie if the gameplay is mindless without a story.

[@bluefire1223]

@@Watcher-hh4mu you know what, I will do just that

[@Dargonhuman]

@@Watcher-hh4mu Bro, I'm 40 years old, I grew up with the NES, classic Doom and hundreds of other games that didn't have a story. I speak from experience that games with stories are far more engaging and immersive if there's a story. Hell, even the games from that time had rudimentary stories to give a framework and motivation to the gameplay.

[@anthoniemccay]

4:50 its sad that doom 3 gets so much hate but it makes sense. Its more of a dead space or resident evil in space rather than DOOM

[@nnaitex]

I think stories make games way much better, like imagine how good it would be if terraria had an ingame story and cutscenes

[@nnaitex]

@Re-Animator I mean the lore is good but it's not used enough

[@therexrust]

I think it's fine as is. The codex is optional and you can skip cutscenes.

[@Moomow7561]

Imagine doom game having expanded worlds, bigger than elden ring. Basically all of mars base explorable

[@thegamingbean953]

Doom needs a story but not lore

[@Dargonhuman]

I don't know if I agree with that opinion, but I sure as hell respect it and can understand where you're coming from. Doom could easily do what Legend of Zelda and Mario do and have a bunch of games that are unique, self contained stories that have little to no impact on the other games and still be story driven (and honestly, now that I think about it, that probably would have been a better approach) with each new story exploring a different narrative concept, gameplay gimmick or set of characters and not having to make each one work within an overarching lore would have been a lot simpler. Realistically, Doom 64 and Doom 3 already kind of occupy that sort of storytelling space, and their existence isn't hurting the franchise as a whole.

[@VtheVictorious]

obviously doom is a gameplay-centric franchise, always has been, but this does not exclude the possibility of story and lore from being present or even prominent in doom as long as the action remains king.

[@VindensSaga]

I have no problem with Doom having lore, I like reading it. One reason why I played through Doom Eternal and Doom 2016 was because of it. I can play other games if I want better gameplay that fit my tastes, I am not saying that Doom Eternal is bad with that. it is good for what it is.

[@davidstrife165]

It like people forgot what a games manual was for.

[@TheRhalf]

doom had one of the most promising lores in 3 and 2016, then they incorporated every fanfiction they saw in twitter into eternal and screwed everything up

[@Ultrakill_V1.]

There's only 3 hours of cut scenes in gowr and almost 25 hours of gameplay if you only do the main missions only,so no there aren't "5 minutes of gameplay"

[@Oblivion___]

I personally didn't like the cutscenes in Doom Eternal, I know you can skip them, but I still didn't like them, because if you skip them you get the feeling that you missed something, in terms of story I prefer Doom 2016, since the beginning until the end of the game you are completely in first person uninterrupted, pure gameplay and the story is told through dialogues and the only cutscenes are at the beginning and end of the game and in both you are still in first person.

[@SirToaster9330]

it's funny cause they basically are saying "we don't want a game period"

[@K-kof2000]

I particularly think that Doom's story was a little strange, there's too much element, Argent, Khan Mykr and that shit. I expected something more "down to earth", just humanity and demons is enough. But obviously any story is better than none, this one for example is regular.

[@Dreezyy_Capo]

I love story in Doom, and people who say it affects gameplay are just dumb imo cause the gameplay is fire,best fps game to exist

[@INSNNE]

The story has some abstract features because the game never was intented to have a lore it was an old hag that catched on to people i enjoy eternal just watching it , it can be as casual as it needs and as hardcore as it can get , sure story wise it could've been better but what the heck do we even expect a saga now ?

[@GodShadowdeath]

Doom is simple you kicked the puppy you mess with the owner now

[@brandongary8234]

I'm trying to get the preator suit costume

[@TacoBlend]

I like how Max0r says that the story is convoluted and terrible, but for the right reasons. It's ridiculous = That's the point

[@Cameron20199]

Did he switch the thumbnail?

[@ThaexakaMavro]

doom 3 what the best one handdowns i hope they make a remake of it

[@Agent-57]

Having no story kinda sucks. Like why I am playing this game at all if there is no sense of accomplishment or closure. And having too much story (ahem Gow ahem) ruins the game especially if the gameplay is mediocre at best. The perfect game is the one that has a story that keeps you invested and a gameplay that makes you feel like a part of it. That's why Arkham games worked so good. You feel like the Batman and you want to know what happens next. Same for Hitman. You feel like a Badass professional murderer. Great story can definitely help a game. If the game has gameplay to back that up. RDR, GTA series, Arkham, Spiderman etc all are good examples.

[@ERROR_CWE_426]

Ngl I immediately liked when I saw the jojo shirt

[@fatemakhan3843]

Wait A Minute what happened to Mick The Victim vs Marty Poo Of Bethesda ⁉️

[@Jobocite]

I personally don't mind Doom having a story but I don't like the God of War-esque direction they decided to go in. In the old Doom games the demons still felt like a threatening force of nature meanwhile in the new Doom games they make the demons out to be nothing but chumps in the grand scheme of things. The focus isn't on them anymore because they decided to focus the plot on these gods and nonsense that had nothing to do with the original. I appreciate Doom Eternal much more now than I did at launch (mostly because I made the terrible error of playing on console instead of PC at the time) and I still overall enjoyed the game, I just don't agree with the way Hugo decided to take the story and I'm hoping the next game does away with all this god nonsense

[@Challerz]

In defence of Doom 3, if you were alive the experience of the game at the time, the game was epic and blew us away. People need to understand the formula of moving fast and circle strafing was done to death it wasn't fun anymore. Non-stop doom "clones" from 1993 to around 2000 put a bad taste in your mouth.

[@PyroTheRabbit]

The only bad thing about doom3 was the shotgun

[@rmbwemanplays5567]

I think EVERY game would need lore if you want a single player game. If it’s multiplayer, you wouldn’t need it. But doom I think shines with lore. That doesn’t mean I enjoyed the story of doom eternal because doom 2016 I think was actually really decent because it knew what it was doing while eternal took risks. I think every game should take risks but that doesn’t mean I have to like it them. And I didn’t enjoy doom eternal because they made him talk and the flashbacks…, the only flashback I think was done well was when he was slotted in the machine to get his enhancements. That, and I don’t really like how they made Vega and Samuel Hayden pretty much god and his second hand (if you wanna call him that).

[@averagecroat196]

i mean doom has a simple story that is cool and explains the characters and the places you visit enough that you say ah ok so thats why we are here but i dont think it should be the main focus of the games obviously

[@JamesHolmez]

Never knew Mindless Demon Killing needed Explanation....

[@necrosteel5013]

You should focus on gameplay and story should be something first introduced through the art direction, that must sow the seed for a narrative. From that point you can expand and truly create something amazing that can hold it's own. It's how halo did things, it's how Warhammer 40K is still relevant. Let the imagination of the audience bring something great to life. Old doom did just that with it's mapping scene. Don't cater an audience of passive consumers the way hollywood does it. That gets you quick fame but a shallow franchise that dies as quickly as it rises, just like avatar and the majority of AAA gaming.

[@blackreign673]

literally nobody is actually arguing about this

[@inzkay]

here is my overall opinion over story and lore in Doom: When Doom 3 began introducing more story, I think it was fine, but the biggest issue I had with it is the overly done edgy horror gameplay and setup. I couldn't enjoy the world they set up because of the dark setting, and annoying situations/rebooted enemies. I felt weak, and as Doom guy, that's the last thing you should feel. Doom 2016 is in my opinion, close to perfection. The story naturally blends the now "doom slayer" to get involved with the plot. It brings back the fast pace action and brutal destruction from the originals, and takes it to an entire new level making the Doom guy stronger than ever. Everything flows, nothing is forced, and the theme stays consistent. An important note is innovation, as the doom franchise can be heavily known for that. Doom 2016 has the perfect amount of innovation. It provides details about each enemy and hell for those who want to know. simple and basically perfect. However, Doom Eternal disappointed me. The gameplay has improved in certain ways, but the mood of the last game is nothing like this one. A boatload of info is thrown at you right off the bat, and you know basically nothing about the background of the sentinals, khan maker, etc. This wouldn't be an issue if they weren't involved, because interacting with these enemies forces you to go to the codex and attempt to understand the situation. Even after reading, I was still extremely confused on the story. There is just too much going on, unlike Doom 2016 where you could easily follow both the lore and story. Also, there are 2 massive gameplay problems with Doom Eternal. One, punches do ABSOLUTELY NO damage, making you feel weak like in Doom 3. and 2, you barely have any ammunition, and the game forces you to utilize every single ability and weapon there is. This removes the players main choice of weapons and methods of killing that both the first 2 doom games and doom 2016 had. Instead of the incredibly smooth experience with 2016, now it feels like your doing back-to-back chores rather than having as much fun. It was a pretty fun game, but my standards were not met considering the masterpiece of Doom 2016.

[@MagentiumPRIME]

Hot take: Cry about it, demi-god spends 2 millennia killing demons 24/7 non stop, kills 3 guardians, kills a fucking giant, kills a god, kills another god, and kills the dark god, dies, refuses to elaborate further. Chad.

[@slavka128]

maybe if they extended it

[@williamanstis]

all this talk abt story got me wandering how the devs are gonna bring back doomslayer for the new games

[@Cloperella]

Including story/lore isn't bad for the Doom franchise. But writing a bad story/script is indeed bad. Which is the case for Doom Eternal, being a horrendous trash fire of bad storytelling. 2016's story worked, because it was minimalist storytelling. The UAC thought it was a good idea to harness Hell energy because they're trying to solve Earth's energy crisis and potentially save the entire planet. Stuff goes awry, you've been awakened to kill demons and close the portal so that they can't cause any more havoc. Not the most compelling or original story ever written, but it doesn't need to be. You're here to shoot demons, so the story is just there to keep you on track and not feel like you're just shooting moving targets for the hell of it. Eternal not only gives us a bunch of convoluted garbage that is annoying to keep track of, but the (skippable) cutscenes *want you* to pay very direct attention to how bad the story is, like they're putting it front and center. The vast majority of the story is "yeah, Doom Man is out for vengeance against a bunch of people that he's had history with, *offscreen* , so it's really important for him and the other characters, even though there's not been any buildup to this for the player audience, just please trust us that this stuff you're seeing really matters. Oh, and basically a lot of stuff in the previous game was either a lie or didn't matter very much, who cares, it's a videogame, you're not allowed to criticize us for our storywriting, noob." "You can skip the cutscenes" isn't a viable argument, because countless hours went into rendering these scenes and recording voice actor lines to annunciate what someone wrote. They *want* you to appreciate the results of their time and effort, and you skipping it because you don't like it means that they failed to win you over. I don't give a damn about the Hell Priests, the Khan Maykr, the Seraphim, The Father, or The Dark Lord. It is Kingdom Hearts levels of convoluted exposition that means absolutely nothing at the end of the day.

[@explosivecrumpet]

Rip daisy

[@ikm-rn6341]

Bruh I loved Doom Eternal coz of the story lmao

[@MidnightDubstep]

Doom is doom story or not its just doom

[@Dargonhuman]

Doom 3 only "failed" by calling itself a Doom game - as a slow-paced, atmospheric horror game it absolutely succeeds and checks all of the boxes. I can almost guarantee that if it wasn't called Doom, and had a few minor story tweaks to give it a more unique personality, it would have been far better received and more successful. In my opinion, Doom 3 is better at being Dead Space than Dead Space was trying to be.