Why Didn't Gandalf Help More?

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

another really important aspect of this is that tolkien always wanted lord of the rings to be a story about how we all have the power within ourselves to go great things, rather than just having a bunch of powerful good guys using their power to destroy bad guys. the greatest people in middle earth weren't gods, angels, noble elves or mighty warriors in their prime, they were regular people who had the mental fortitude to overcome anything in front of them. the hobbits obviously aren't humans, but a bit paradoxically they represent ordinary people, where most humans in the story represent warriors and kings, and that's why it's so important that it was frodo and sam who went to the mountain alone, and why merry and pippin contributed so much to the battles despite being small and untrained, and why the finale of the book was the hobbits coming together to save their home. when people in the book are talking about how resilient the hobbits are like whenever they get ill and miraculously recover, or when they do something incredible like sam carrying frodo up the mountain or frodo walking down shelob, that's not tolkien saying that hobbits have some weird powers, that's tolkien saying that we all have that courage and strength within ourselves. this is also the reason why there seems to be a lot of grey area around "magic" in lotr, with stuff like aragorn's ability to command men being strangely similar to what we see gandalf doing to give hope to those around him. it doesn't matter if you're a big strong warrior or a powerful wizard, if you set your mind to it you can achieve anything

[@Rickflair604]

Well said :)

[@yggdrasild755]

Great comment. Also we all have our wyrd/hamingja/karma so if we get ill or get in a terrible accident etc. it's our wrongdoings from earlier lives that caused them. But we can dissolve previous lives bad wyrd/karma by doing good - 🌳🐗🧙‍♀🧙‍♂

[@hoyinching9313]

Well said, if god intervene people too much, people will be corrupted easily, relying on god.

[@anathardayaldar]

This is the explanation I've about why the biblical christian god allows evil to exist. "He" wants people to choose to do the right thing, not be forced to. Then by god not always intervening overwhelmingly, our preception of evil becomes relative. Humans get spoiled by consitent and dependable good fortune. If nothing we today consider "evil" is ever allowed to occur, then it won't take long before whatever is allowed to happen soon stratifies out to the new definition of "good and evil" and people start complaining all over again.

[@VincenzodeLeon]

Except the Christian god’s “first draft” of the world WAS perfect. Is it not right to assume that, should Adam and Eve (and no one else) never have eaten from the forbidden tree, nothing would have changed?

[@davidmiddleton7958]

Basically, according to Tolkien's writings, the Valar didn't want flashy shows of power. So, the Istari were sent in the form of mortal men. A good example is Saruman's power of voice. Less destructive, and meant to inspire & pursuade.

[@matthewgaulke8094]

It's so refreshing to hear someone do a LOTR video that actually talks about Catholicism. It always leaves me sad to hear these people who are borderline obsessed by Tolkien but they never explore this huge aspect of the mythology and just keep it at a video game level mindset. One guy even got pissy when I commented by bring God stuff up. It'd be like being a Jesus scholar but not actually believing in the grace of God and the literal resurrection of Jesus. It's just escapism for most these people but they miss the underlying depth and beauty of Tolkien.

[@brandonmunsen6035]

The Bible was made for escapism so imo so your statement has such dry humor to it

[@redgoesface1671]

​@@brandonmunsen6035an empty assertion.

[@Churchmilitant67]

Another great video! God bless you! 🫡

[@francod.5295]

Great video! As always eloquently and concisely explained!

[@badgamemaster]

Ilúvatar did trip Gollum in Mount Doom, if I remember right... so I guess he did smith the ring and Sauron in the end...

[@AndreasSelzer]

To my knowledge it was the Ring itself as Gollum was cursed by it (through Frodo) on Mount Doom. So the Ring actually destroyed itself through its own curse.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

​@@AndreasSelzer Tolkien has a way with curses and oaths, The Silmarillion is a course in what goes around is what comes around

[@derekmiller6091]

Perhaps he just lost his balance. No need to bring divine intervention.

[@badgamemaster]

@@derekmiller6091 I wasn't sure where I had read it so I tried to look it up as I no longer owns a copy of the book The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien... but what I found was that Tolkien himself said so in Letter 192...

[@behappy-d2z]

LOL very fun answer on the topic 😁

[@emilsazanda]

We need look no further than the words of Manwe Sulimo, Eru's viceregent in Arda: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.’

[@redgoesface1671]

Tons of people here that know very little of theology and philosophy and seem to be salty that the greatest of fantasy fiction is inherently christian in nature. And successful because of it.

[@rcbmmines4579]

It's very jarring too because among Catholic and general Christian Tolkien fan online spaces, there's plenty of people discussing the religious depths of his work, so it's sad when the "mainstream"/secular part of the fanbase is not only ignorant but so hostile to it. Tolkien would be ashamed of them as a lifelong hardcore devotee to the faith. Best we could do is pray for them and keep discussing it.

[@venoltar]

At the core I see it as a debate between Eru and Melkor. When Melkor introduced the discordant elements to the Song, he thought he was opposing Eru. From Eru's perspective, Melkor's additions were foreseen and part of what made it perfect, while from Melkor's perspective he thought he has successfully undermined the Song. Middle-Earth was Eru's way of demonstrating to Melkor and the rest of the Ainur what they had all accomplished with their Song.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Its really interesting to think of Gandalf in this way ... as well as just an old man in a battered hat 😉

[@napoleonfeanor]

It's important to show how afraid Gandalf (and Galadriel) were of touching the Ring.

[@lhadzyan7300]

Regardless of the limitations on his powers, there seems to be oddily unnerving that he just seems to left out Middle-Earth after acheiveing his deeds against Sauron and bringing back the rightfull heir of Gondor and Anor thrones reintalled, to have left out such a big new deal of upcoming menance that the discovery of the Nameless Things of Moria dealt into the future unless that were some of the issues discussed and then solved out of scene with the last meeting between him and Tom Bombadill, which makes sense as he is a great mystery on his own but on opposite nature than the Nameless Things. If that didn´t happened it´s so eerie unnerving why Gandalf just left out without any other second thought on that upcoming problem in the future, specially when he actually got meddling into more stuff in the Middle Earth beyond his main focus against Sauron. After all dealing with Saruman´s treachery wasn´t another objective of him but he still went to incapacitate him even till helping to save the Shire from his retaillation threatening too!! So it doesn´t make sense he also finished Saruman´s issue but not the Nameless Things then! Come on even dealing with the Barlog wasn´t either another thing to acheive on his goals anyways! So got meddled into A LOT of stuff beyond going against Sauron, so why left over such a threat as the Nameless Things freely there?!!

[@el_chico1313]

he only directly intervenes when a couple of humans just land on aman, but if elves but her each other "naaah thats fiiine"

[@generalj216]

5:56 did he say that? Where was this?

[@andrewdornan587]

After Dagor Dagorath, can Melkor be redeemed by Illuvitar?

[@loganw1232]

Unlikely given the free will of choosing Good and Evil. God won’t force Melkor to repent.

[@derkommentar5013]

0:53 That's Franz Liszt ☺

[@petergianakopoulos4926]

.. but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men...

[@linski561]

It would have been a very dull and short fantasy novel Eru had stepped in.

[@sil1235]

I think Gandalf was sent by Valar, not by Iluvatar. Iluvatar only sent him back after he died fighting balrog.

[@redgoesface1671]

Being sent by the Valar (if so) would still amount to being sent by Iluvatar. The same way God commands His angels.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

Why didnt he help Arnor?

[@napoleonfeanor]

The other Ainur could have given Sauron a little bit of recognition and he wouldn't have fallen to the dark side.

[@luisureta8604]

The answer is very simple, Eru can’t do any type hard to his children. Melkor and the other the Valar has completely free wild to do everything they want, the same Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Men, Maiar, animals etc. Eru influence was very little and no one can will notice. Like the waters of a river will carry away the unique ring with its current. Tolkien was catholic men, he can sea a good men abused he power over weak ones, less on the creator(God). He understands compassion and empathy. Something that the character Gandalf does in all his actions with friends, animals and plants.

[@waltonsmith7210]

I think it was the Valar who set the llimits on Gandalf's power, not Eru.

[@VincenzodeLeon]

Ok. But Ilúvatar does absolutely smite evil, seemingly only when is convenient to Him. He couldn’t smite Sauron or Morgoth because that would be taking away their free will, but no problems smiting Ar-Pharazôn and his King’s Men when they arrived on the shores of Valinor? And at the same time, allowing Sauron to endure, when he was the bigger threat? Arbitrary.

[@Agent-bh9tk]

Have you ever read the Silmarillion? It is all answered there.

[@redgoesface1671]

​@@Agent-bh9tk similarly, anyone who has a full understanding of scripture knows that the true God never did anything arbitrarily either. Though to the less discerning, it seems so.

[@GaryM67-71]

Ultimately, story-writing and morality depend on the writer. No guarantees that the author of LOTR or anything else is sane or moral. They are just killing time after all, these writers, personally, I don't know how they can face themselves each day, I would press delete today.

[@cush6827]

boah do you ever get to a point?

[@wikipediaintellectual7088]

Tik tok zoomer attention span

[@sourisvoleur4854]

This made me think of something. In the Bible, death is a result of Adam and Eve's first sin. In Tolkien's world, it was part of Eru Iluvatar's plan for Mankind from the very beginning. It seems Tolkien is denying part of his own Catholic faith on something very central to the sin-and-salvation model at its heart.

[@loganw1232]

I think what you’re saying in a flawed argument. I think Tolkien was going by the Catholic World view of the difference between physical and spiritual death. Tolkien has the Gift of Man be Physical death to leave the World to be with God.

[@aaronaukema1284]

There are numerous references in Catholic theology to the "happy fault" of Adam, which was the cause of the Incarnation, Death, and Glorious Resurrection of Christ. Catholics see the fault of Adam as bad, but without it, Christ doesn't bring God to man, and man is thus worse off.

[@sourisvoleur4854]

@@aaronaukema1284 In Orthodox theology Christ would have incarnated even if Adam and Eve had never sinned. So the idea of the "happy fault" isn't a thing.

[@aaronaukema1284]

@@sourisvoleur4854 So...the Orthodox reject St. Augustine? I believe the "happy fault" concept is likewise present in many other Fathers, I just know St. Augustine is one of them. "Happy fault" and inevitability are not mutually exclusive.

[@sourisvoleur4854]

@@aaronaukema1284 Well the Orfies do accept him as a saint. But don't accept much if anything of his teachings.

[@timothywolfenden4478]

But what this theology is totally ignorant of.....Jesus Christ, His obedience alone is credited to those who see NOTHING good in oneself or this world....and so Tolkien's god is a false god even as allah does not exist. God became flesh and blood and fully performed that which NO MAN can do...ever.

[@tetonsaltes8086]

Coming from a fellow Christian...will you shut up please. Thanks

[@zenopoli8376]

first of all, tolkien's work is full of christian symbolism and it can be viewed as an allegory of the christian message, internet is full of commentaries about this fact, go check yourself. while he never intended for iluvatar to be the christian god, his rapresentation of the divine is very christian. second, your god is not real, but if it is, is the same being behind the name allah and jaweh. christianity and islam are both heresies of hebraism, three ways of interpreting the same book. three sides of the same blood-stained bronze-age war cult, the most distructive religion ever appeared on earth.

[@justadude117X]

This is the only part of the legendarium that i have issue with because i have major issues with the fundamental philosophy of Christianity and Catholicism. God cannot be all good, all knowing, and all powerful. Neither can Iru Iluvatar. You can still allow free will to exist and also outright smite absolute evil. Or better yet, design your creations to not even consider evil. Free will within paradise. Saying that free will means that evil is allowed to exist is like saying that when you go to heaven you lose free will. It makes no sense. Also god is allowed to commit evil acts himself both irl and in LOTR and yet is never held accountable? There are too many contradictions within these theologies. God cannot be all powerful, all knowing, all good. One of them has to be false. And its most likely that he is not all good. Mostly, but not all. It would be far more compelling if god had simply abandoned humanity eons ago, resulting in the decay of humanity into the potential to commit evil because a good god isnt there to stop it outright.

[@billebrooks]

JRR Tolkien put far more thought into answering these questions than theologians ever have. The biggest issue is, if Eru intervened to stop Ar-Pharazon, wouldn't Eru also intervene if Sauron defeated Gandalf and Aragorn? Or, just how bad does the situation have to get before Eru makes a move?

[@rcbmmines4579]

As you alluded to, this is an age old (going back at least 2000 years) philosophical and theological debate with great rational minds on both sides, not fit to be debated under the comment section of a KZbin video. It is known as the "Problem of Evil". But there are good responses to this that you can find accessible here on other KZbin videos. I highly recommend checking out the channels Inspiring Philosophy and Counsel of Trent, which cover this topic as well as others. To understand Tolkien, Catholicism and Christianity in general, it's important to see why an all-powerful, all good and all knowing God does make sense from our perspective. Again I don't want to make a full debate on this comment section, but to give a few of my own amateur points: - You indeed cannot design creatures to not be evil and allow free will at the same time. That itself is non-sensical. The point is that they must be given a choice. By designing them to be incapable of it, then their will is not free and there is no choice. - Going to Heaven and no longer being evil is not a loss of free will, because one chooses to go to Heaven and to allow God to sanctify, wash or purge (hence purgatory) you of evil. Doing so after creation with consent is an important distinction. - The world is broken on a metaphysical level by sin, which is a real spiritual taint that's bound to us through our free will and the world (much like Morgoth binding himself to Arda). Sin and evil are not merely arbitrary ideas but tangible from the POV of our religion. - God's omniscience and omnipotence allows Him to bring the spirits of the dead to life in Heaven as well as bodily resurrected at the end of this world and eternally in the remade one. In the mean time He can and does act in more subtle ways as to not interfere with our free will as much as possible. Most important though, and this is more on why a loving God who is supreme is more compelling than one who abandoned the world, our God did not save the world by eliminating all suffering (at least right away) or prevent its existence, but by healing and experiencing suffering Himself. He (God the Son) incarnated Himself to live life as a human being in every way but sin/evil, experiencing love, joy, pain, sorrow and grief, then suffered perhaps one of the worst deaths any human can experience (see articles on Dr. Pierre Barbet and Dr. Thomas McGovern's medical studies of it). Then He showed what awaits after death through the Resurrection, the ultimate form of healing. Please meditate or ponder on this, as well as how Tolkien portrays suffering, hope and restoration in his stories.

[@rcbmmines4579]

@@billebrooks Respectfully, Tolkien himself as a hardcore Catholic (more than I or most of my generation for sure) would greatly disagree with you. To understand and respect the man, you need to at least respect his world view and people even if you do not disagree with him. There are many great philosophers and theologians past and present with tons of arguments who debate on the Problem of Evil all the time. It's actually a professional thing, with a lot of Catholic apologists debating Atheist ones on this topic here on KZbin alone. Go check them out.

[@billebrooks]

@@rcbmmines4579 Tolkien was too humble to give himself that kind of credit. I doubt he was knowledgeable enough about theology to realize that the entire discipline is a total joke. Tolkien was better off being in his field.

[@rcbmmines4579]

@@billebrooks Tolkien, though not a theologian, was actually very well catechized as he was raised by a Priest after the death of his mother. He wrote often in his letters about his respect for the celibate Priest life, as well as his devotion to the Eucharist and the Virgin Mary (both very Catholic things). As he said, though not on purpose at first, his works are filled with Catholic thought. Put respect on that discipline too. Many great theologians and Priests are also important in other fields. Fr. Georges LeMaitre for example was a Priest of the Jesuit Order who was also the astrophysicist who discovered the Big Bang Theory. Many secular scientists of his time mocked it as a joke or fabricated theory to ague for a creator, but now ignorant atheists today use it to call religion a joke and proof of the opposite somehow. Catholics are also much more accepting of evolution than other denominations and ironically, it’s the work of Franciscan Monk Gregor Mendel that pushed it forward via his founding of Genetics. At the end of the day, if Tolkien didn’t decide to get married, he could have chosen the Priestly vocation and became a theologian and still have been a great philologist, myth scholar and author. But marriage and family is an honorable vocation as well.

[@johncampbell3390]

Eru is what makes Lord of the Rings a useless read. There were never any stakes the outcome was never in doubt.

[@racheldawn65]

I never thought of Gandalf as being as powerful as Sauron, Soromon, etc. And he did fight as hard as he could, at least at times - he fought the Balrog, for example. But he never had enough power to eradicate evil in Middle Earth; the LOTR never gave any single character that much ability... Christians always say God created evil to teach us lessons, etc. but imagine if that's wrong? Imagine if evil is actually a parasitic, alien force that we give power to by saying it was created by God. Maybe that's why evil always wins.

[@forestria_gaming]

Christians would NOT say that evil was created by God to teach a lesson, in fact, this is contrary to our faith. We believe that evil began due to the Fall. Evil can not be in the presence of God for it will burn away. Evil will not win, but it is very capable of corrupting. Our sin, which is evil, can continue to corrupt our souls and make us worse and worse. Our choice, a choice of Free Will given by God, lets us choose between continuing in our sin or choosing God. If this answers you, yay, if it doesn't, I'm very sorry for bothering you. Have a nice day!

[@racheldawn65]

@@forestria_gaming But in Christianity God allowed the fall to happen and for sin to come into the world, and afterwards He didn't keep Adam and Eve in Eden; he expelled them and opened them up to a world of evil. And what do you mean that "evil cannot be in the presence of God?;' evil has conquered the entire West now and it wins constantly, so do you mean that God is absent from the world? Evil always wins on earth - when people die without knowing God it wins, when it leads to the killing of innocent ppl it wins, when it's used to destroy the world it wins - it wins all the time. And often humans aren't harmed by their own sin; they're harmed by the actions of others and it destroys them. Plus, God still created a world separate from Eden that they fell into, right? ... I grew up in the church and the answer I was always given in relation to evil is that God allows it to exist to teach us things.