Why do Karate guys always get wrecked by Boxers?

[@ChaelSonnenOfficial]

You did a good job

[@RamseyDewey]

Thank you!

[@itsoracle]

never seen a youtuber with a million subs have no likes on a comment or a ufc fighter 💀

[@johntay3831]

@@itsoraclebecause you tubers are more interested in bs comments

[@ValleyDragon]

Let's Hope this is the first in a long line of Chael Comments to Ramsey.

[@ilikezappa3268]

So did you, Chael you crazy man ! Lol

[@fighttips]

Spot on, sir. I've never been to a boxing gym where we "light spar" or "tech spar". We'd straight up *fight* almost everyday. I'm not saying that's healthy or the right way to train, but in the context of this question... the boxer is GENERALLY just tougher through more ring time.

[@njalsand133]

meanwhile in taekwondo, you have to move slowly up the ranks, learn korean words and spend a fortune on graduation

[@ZeroMalarki]

That sounds mad.. there are plenty of boxing gyms I've been to where there is a time for hard sparring and time for light sparring.

[@urmomgae5882]

@@ZeroMalarki i think hes referring to the "kata" stuff that traditional martial arts ppl do

[@stvillasquad]

Damn I’ve been to a lot of boxing gyms that light spar lol

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

Then you haven't been to good gyms. I have watched world champion boxers doing light training working on particular strategies and techniques. I have also seen the same in Muay Thai gyms, and full-contact Karate gyms, Judo clubs, wrestling teams, etc.

[@Seekingtruth-mx3ur]

"Every man thinks he can fight until he gets beaten down and humbled." Wise words.

[@A55455In47I0n]

yeah so wise...

[@nihatsavmaz6677]

Every man has a plan till he gets punched in the face. M. Tyson.

[@SmugAmerican]

I always say I can fight an amateur. You can't beat a professional at anything if you're not in their world.

[@Seekingtruth-mx3ur]

@@SmugAmerican true. Better to walk away.

[@HenriFaust]

@@SmugAmerican There are a lot of _self-proclaimed_ professionals out there though.

[@ironmikehallowween]

My father was a boxer. He taught us to box at a very young age. I actually cannot remember when I started, but I know when a used it in real life, it was beyond effective. In fact, it made fighting seem quite easy. But, against other boxers, it was much more difficult to land my shots. The didn’t fall for my wonderful tricks as often. They didn’t just fall down when I hit them all the time like regular people did. Sometimes, they would even stay very low, so I couldn’t just crack them at will. Even too low for my stellar uppercuts. It was very frustrating. So I decided to do kick boxing. That would fix those pesky short, strong, stocky guys wouldn’t it? I can just kick their legs out from under them, and knee them when they came in low. Then these judo/wrestler type guys, you know the ones. Well, they are just short of being animals. No talent at all. No. They are just strong. No technique at all. Why they would sometimes be able to sneak in there, tie me up, grab me, and throw me down. Completely uncivilized if you ask me. Not Queensbury Rules at all. So, I lifted a lot of weights and took Hapkido/Judo/Aiki Jujitsus. That will fix those heathens. Then, these people started chocking me. WTH I thought. This is ridiculous. Choking people just isn’t fair. It really isn’t. So, I had to take that too. Wait a minute…where was I? Oh yeah. You need some exposure to it all.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Bro number one no kickboxers going to come in low. They're fighting styles totally different.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Cool story bro!

[@andrewfisher1051]

Very nice!

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@Bruce D then he said he got into kickboxing so he could kick them in the head when they went low. No kickboxers going to go low. To get kicked in the head. It's a more upright fighting style

[@lt.mouse1485]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed Yeah. As in he could kick the boxers in the head. The boxers would go low, so he learned kickboxing to punish the boxer. Learn to read.

[@Mr.Smiley_J]

It took me decades to realize that boxing is way more "martial arts" than most things normal folk would consider "martial arts." I had no idea boxing had all the stances, special moves, strategy, grappling, and footwork that most martial arts claim, but on top of that, getting strong, fast, and competent at actually using your skill against live opponents comes built into the curriculum.

[@RamseyDewey]

So true.

[@boxer6796]

That's the thing: Boxing is a lot more than just puching!

[@Dussmasterzero]

You're exactly right boxing IS a martial art. And one that is 100 percent tailored to actual physical combat despite not having any kicks or throws or submissions. Boxers train with the mindset that taking punishment is part of the game so like dude said unless you are REALLY good at kicks and maintaining distance a good boxer can and will flatten you in close range. Relying only on kicks is a weakness

[@MrCmon113]

What grappling? They're separated when they hold on?

[@furyberserk]

Then you misunderstood. Martial arts is about the philosophy and technique. But combat is about advantage. Advantage means taking advantage over weaknesses. I've seen a lot of fights where flailing boxers still win. Flailing works. Martial arts have taught everything right, but has failed to evolve. My brother went up to a yellow belt in shotokan karate. Do you know what he taught me that I've never seen people do? The 7 defensive evasions(weaves and foot work) or the cat stance (boxing) which is in karate. Karate is itself with boxing in it, but they never take the nimble positions. Some people want to just land the big moves, but all of boxing is fundamentals. It's like faints don't exist in all warfare or combat ever.

[@kbeadle23]

Martial Arts doesn't Make you a fighter. Fighting makes you a fighter. I don't have any delusions about what lane my sport bjj puts me in.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Number one. There is no such thing as BJJ there is only Pankration.

[@AsymmetricalAce]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed sod off troll. Bjj. Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Ju Jitsu is Japanese, stupid. Pankration is not

[@brogrammer593]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed What?

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@brogrammer593 what?

[@brogrammer593]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed What do you mean there's no such thing as BJJ?

[@gatolf2]

Here’s something to consider. Boxers not only spar often but they also train only in punching pretty much. If you spend 100 hours learning 30 different techniques, you will often lose to the guy that’s been training 100 hours on 10 techniques because more of their hours are going into each technique they train.

[@RoboBreaker]

This.

[@jayclearmen411]

Not to mention.. it’s different styles southpaw & switch hitters will F*ck you up if you havent ever encountered them plus it’s the mental aspects of it which are often forgotten with boxing every good boxer has a thinking mind full with instincts tips trick an tactics learned and earned from sparring..an u know what they say experience is often the best teacher. this goes double if they’ve been in a few street fights an brawls

[@HardHardMaster]

That's typical theoretical fantasy football. The guy who can knock out someone with 1 punch and can absorb a few himself, wins

[@The_Custos]

The left hook always has a place.

[@stubley3432]

@@HardHardMaster Yeah and learning the defensive habits to take, catch, block and roll more punches drastically makes ur chances better

[@RobDegraves]

Shortly after I got my black belt in Karate, I moved to another University in a different town and got involved in full-contact kickboxing. It was considerably different from what I had learned in Karate and I had to start over almost from scratch. Since then I have started over a number of times in various martial arts. This was the 80s and martial arts styles didn't cross over, and it was a serious problem. It still is an issue but thankfully people are starting to understand that in order to win every time, you need to know everything, not just one thing.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

In the past it was about respect. Now it's about money

[@chrispoggi1726]

Tactfully said.

[@guillermo9140]

I don’t think you started over almost from scratch, because I think they have cardio in karate and that’s more than 50% of a fight in my opinion

[@mcpartridgeboy]

To win every time is probably impossible unless your rocky marciano or whatever his name is, and even he had to retire !

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@jonathanmora8208 You're absolutely right but not in Europe. Asia, absolutely. The Greeks did not believe in such things. They were all about Max efficiency. A. Science-based society

[@Cryptic0013]

Having done karate and TKD as a kid, then boxing and later muay thai as an adult... the major difference isn't even technical. There was a very good 'karate' guy training MMA at the same gym, and his striking style worked quite well even in that context (adapted to incorporate and defend wrestling and BJJ). The difference is that, when you spar at a pure karate dojo, they have the mindset that "if I hit you hard enough that it hurts, then I won a point, and if I get enough points then I win the game" and boxers have the mindset of "If you hit me hard enough that it hurts, I hit you back even harder. The game is over when one of us can't stand up anymore."

[@xeno18ufo34]

Because most karate are not full contact. Why u even compare them. Unless you compare kyokushin and kyokushin derived styles (asihara, byakuren, etc). Ofc the traditional karate practitioners can't compare with athletes from full contact sports..because they never train full contact... I also want to see a boxer who is not allowed to hit the head with the hands vs a kyokushin practitioner at the same lvl just body hits..really doubt boxer will win.

[@thunderkatz4219]

@@xeno18ufo34well it’s not just Kyokushin Goju ryu and Okinawan and kenpo have the same ideals as Kyokushin

[@Hff19927]

Yeah boxing gave me that kill or be killed mentality. Karate didn’t

[@TangomanX2008]

I'm a little surprised. I would have expected boxers to keep it light or to a specific level of force without escalation simply because one got hit, at least during sparring precisely because they are accustomed to getting hit.

[@fredrikhedlund]

If you look at mma pretty much all stand up dudes use karate stance, kung fu stance. Not thai or boxing. Why? Because its way more effective when you meet someone who can try to take you down.

[@davethebrahman9870]

I boxed and studied a bit of Shotokan as a youth. The plain fact is that boxing accustoms you to real fights, with the taking punches and adrenaline surge. Your capacity to slip and avoid punches only comes after getting hit. Your body adapts. It isn’t just the actual fights, it’s the wars in the gym where no one wants to back down and there’s no referee.

[@danield7789]

This. As boxer I can tell you that people is not used to be punched in the face. This is very important in fighting. Being able to take a punch

[@Malt454]

Competitive boxers train, and fight, full-out to win, even in a sports environment while, in karate the first rule, even in competition, is "don't seriously hurt anyone". Mindsets, particularly reinforced mindsets, matter a lot. Like John Wayne says in The Shootist - "it isn't always being fast, or even accurate, that counts... it's being willing". The guy who is willing to mess up the other guy and then worry about it later is more apt to win than the guy who isn't. Boxing, as a martial art, is often very underrated in terms of difficulty, complexity and effectiveness... but it has a killer mindset really not seen in other arts/sports - and that's why a lot of people have been killed doing it. Nobody "plays" boxing.

[@turtlesage28]

This is the best comment on martial arts I've seen in awhile. Salute.

[@fitveganathleteintegrateda1695]

Absolute truth.

[@Malt454]

@@turtlesage28 - Thank you very much.

[@Jordanthecool7]

I agree with everything that you said, besides boxing being underrated. A lot of people even if they don’t understand the skill of it , they at least know that it is a very hard sport, and it is very very affective in real situations

[@Malt454]

@MMA Expert - Sorry "expert" - boxing deaths don't happen primarily because of mismatches (although this sometime does happen); they happen because boxers can afford to punch all-out without risk of hand damage, because that's what the hand wrapping and heavy gloves are for. Boxers hit harder, because that's what they're trained, and able, to do. Boxing is fundamentally more dangerous than UFC. When it comes to hand striking, the UFC has FAR from the best fighters in the world. Conor Mcgregor was the punching terror of the UFC, but he was nothing special as a boxer. Put the top UFC fighters in a boxing ring against the world's top boxers and the UFC fighters are in deep trouble - although you're right... the UFC guys probably won't have to worry about killing anyone.

[@craigleonard9243]

I agree with you. I studied old style karate(pre-sport) in Okinawa for ten years. I fought a lot and found the most challenging opponents were boxers. Modern karate is well removed from the original combat oriented karate of old.

[@Supermomo2007]

Which okinawa style? Can you recommend shorin ryu?

[@thunderkatz4219]

@@Supermomo2007I do Okinawan kenpo but I’m guessing he does shojin myagi I forgot his name style

[@ijansk]

Probably because actual karate can be lethal? Probably karate got softened up for that reason ir order to avoid creating murderers...

[@robertbeaulieu2999]

​@@thunderkatz4219Goju Ryu

[@Manomed3]

ashihara and kyokushin karate are tougher can harder than box.@@ijansk

[@Oldschooldan1]

My first Karate instructor, back in the early 1980's, used to have a saying. He would say, "Kick for show, punch for dough". I was lucky to have an instructor that wasn't in it for the money. He always encouraged cross training. This led to me getting into kickboxing and now at 50 I'm doing BJJ. Well, more trying to survive than doing...

[@iblockpuncheswithmyface1490]

My martial arts instructor (Shotokan) was pretty much the same. Kata's, one steps, and fancy kicks were for sport. They were the "art" in martial arts. In real street combat. Punches, and basic front kicks. Another good thing, training wise. He was a bouncer at the roughest bar in the city. He had about 100 knockdown, drag 'em out street/bar fights. He taught us what works, and what doesn't work, from personal experience, and he's an itty bitty guy. Five foot five, and about 150 pounds.

[@dr.dylansgame5583]

@@iblockpuncheswithmyface1490 Damn dude sounds like the adult version of me just with a different base and way more experience. I'm jealous and would kill to learn from someone with that kind of experience since experience is the ultimate teacher in my opinion.

[@ehrenthompson7891]

Good point

[@Meatisfood]

Weird thing to say to a child.

[@hippy1002]

Awesome training at age fifty. but if you stayed fit, 50 aint old, but you are a tad slower.. .. savvy makes up for speed

[@hellfrozen9971]

Kicks are longer,stronger,less precise and 3 times slower,you lose balance and defence as well

[@smokedcheese6431]

​@nicholasgreen339This was infuriating to read, why do you write like this? Not trying to offend, just genuinely curious what the thought process of typing like that is

[@comicsmaster7809]

If you lose balance and defence by kicking, you are doing it wrong

[@arenuzzle6282]

You lose balance because you don't train

[@BlackRose369.]

​@@smokedcheese6431it looks like he's trying to make some points ..

[@AkiraGuitar777]

I agree with most of what has been said about kicks v punches... but I have to add that a good modern fighter like Justin ... I can't spell his last name, that MMA 155lb fighter who can spam leg kicks like crazy.. and Barbosa as well... People like that would be a NIGHTMARE for pure boxers

[@SoulConstruct]

Boxing is not just about using the hands, the feet and legs are also a part of boxing. Your stance, how well you can move, overall speed, and how you position yourself are just some of the ways legs contribute to boxing.

[@ComeOnPelican91]

If your legs give out during sparring you're basically a dead man.

[@alan_perez127]

For sure, and thats because theyre not even kicking. Imo karate beats boxing every time(especially because there are boxing elements in karate) but alot of karate guys aren’t fighters

[@_penguin_9946]

@@alan_perez127 Karate is nothing like boxing they keep their hands down and punch with one hand down not proper boxing form. Boxing beats karate

[@alan_perez127]

@@_penguin_9946 nah a good karateka will have their hands up, and kicks beat punches every single time and thats because karate also has every boxing punch type and more

[@PierceMichaelChia]

Until you get a leg kick

[@ronaldhuss8915]

Your spot on RD It's more about actual, real sparring and real fights. Boxing, far above most other fighting style, uses advanced footwork, feints, traps, angles and combinations. Plus a boxer is trained to adapt to the situation at hand practicing combinations rather than a set of katas that probably don't fit the actual fight

[@conmcgrath7174]

Absolutely, total respect to traditional martial artists (as opposed to mac-dojo 'belts for sale here') but you are right. It's the fluid movement of your entire body and (a fault of mine from well, guess where?) not every punch has to be full power; fast percussive, whipping hooks can totally take someone down. Timing, distancing and angling with body conditioning and hard sparring can make an effective fighter. I can't deny that a good kick, delivered by a pro won't be effective but the danger of throwing any kick is that you no longer have perfect balance on two feet (dah?) and if a boxer actually steps into your space whilst it's being thrown then you're in all kinds of trouble. If you have 'conditioned' hands, boxing outside the ring can be devastating. As is Ju Jitsu. Pax Ronald.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

I was almost always the smallest boy in class when I was growing up. Some of the other boys would pick on me because my size. My family taught me a little dirty boxing for self defense. I'll be honest I probably learned more from fighting and wrestling with my brother. One day a taller boy who had been taking Karate wanted to show off his skills to his friends. He picked me as his example. Well what happened did not go the way that he wanted. My dirty boxing was superior to his white belt Karate. He went home with a couple of bruises to his body and his ego. On the bright side, I never got picked on again after that.

[@garynaccarato4606]

I heard someone tell me of an incident some kid who knew karate who thought that it was a good idea to bully some other kid and call him R-word and what wound up happening is that kid who knew karate and called the other kid the R-word got beaten up by the kid who was called the R-word and didn't know any martial art by the way.Part of the reason why I think this might have happened was because this kid was probably rather large or around the same size as the bully and that the bully who probably had very minimal experience in a style of karate which was posibly not even one of the better styles of karate out there got really over confident and had a false sense of security and just wound up getting beat up and made to look stupid by someone who had no experience in fighting.Which by the way if I studied something like Aikido or a crappy martial art for fighting particularly if I had a high degree of a belt I would sort of rather keep the fact that I can't really fight or I am incapable of kicking somebodies butt a secret as opposed to making myself look stupid by trying to convince somebody to try to kick my butt and then getting my butt kicked in the process.

[@varanid9]

@@garynaccarato4606 What's the "R word"?

[@gigachad6885]

@@varanid9 Ronald McDonald

[@varanid9]

@@gigachad6885 well no wonder these guys are getting beat

[@jakeledger2819]

Any resources to learn dirty boxing

[@justinfreeman4614]

Before the video starts, my first thought is that most karate practitioners don't train against a fully resisting opponent in a fairly open ended environment. While a boxing environment is inherently limited, they typically train against legitimately resisting opponents AND a lot of boxing gyms have a very small gap between fighting and sparring.

[@bournechupacabra]

Going from karate to kickboxing was an interesting transition. I certainly had some things to learn but a fair amount of my karate practice carried over. Point sparring is pretty good at teaching realistic timing and speed of real sparring, and hitting bags can give you real power on your techniques so putting them together for kickboxing wasn't super hard. However, I was also lucky to have had a karate sensei who taught us more practical sparring tips rather than just pure controlled drills. I also practiced sparring with my friends. At the end of the day, there is nothing inherently wrong with traditional martial arts as long as you find ways to pressure test your abilities in realistic scenarios. In fact, American kickboxing is partially derived from karate. The problem is that most traditional practitioners don't ever do that.

[@DeputyChiefWhip]

It depends on your story and your experiences. Im a 80's/90's Shotokan 2nd dan, ex doorman with training under Geoff Thompson. Using his method it was pretty easy to adapt to a shorter way of using karate more directly. Not only that, our sparring was supposed to be points sparring but it was way heavier if you compared to today's point sparring. I have sparred at boxing clubs and as long as they had a ring that wasn't a phone booth, I was a look ways ok.

[@HardHardMaster]

You had me at 'Geoff Thompson'

[@italpeel]

I've read loads of Geoff's books and still have some of his animal day videos. Watch my back was a great read. What happened to Geoff. He just dropped off the radar

[@eamonwilkinson2333]

​@@italpeelhe does healing podcasts now. On KZbin. Don't think he's doing the self defence anymore plus gotten older. Those self defence videos he done were in the 90s.

[@tekki2060]

I'm ranked in two style of karate and have extensive experience as an amateur and professional boxer. The karate made my boxing much more balanced and powerful and the boxing taught me much better reflexes and movement. The two can compliment each other if one is well grounded in the basics of both. Unfortunately, very few people know how to properly teach either properly these days. One must also be careful about the concepts of power in each because if one doesn't it can ruin you for both.

[@christophercallinan]

this is the best comment

[@HardHardMaster]

Boxing is combined with karate in several styles. Karate is not a centuries old rigid archaic system. It incorporated boxing and for example muay thai and judo/jujutsu techniques as well as others.

[@saqibhabib5576]

What an answer👌

[@tekki2060]

@@HardHardMaster Well, maybe the much more current variations of martial arts, ie; MMA, but not the older stuff. I'm speaking of traditional Shotokan and the Okinawan styles from which it was derived. One must also understand that Tae Kwon Do is NOT taught here like it is in Korea. Most Americans could never handle the rigid discipline and the long workouts.

[@HardHardMaster]

@@tekki2060 originally all karate is from Okinawa and mixed a lot with Chinese martial arts. So it was already a mixed martial art from the start. Western boxing was incorporated over a period of time and depending on the style, and muay thai a while later, mainly in kyokushin. Even savate has had a strong influence on early karate, without it we wouldn't have had high kicks for example. When karate was popularized in mainland Japan, throws and locks and most grappling was taken out or rather, ignored, so as not to compete or be confused too much with judo and jujutsu. Some later styles reincorporated that again. The popularity of MMA has double sparked that particular facet of karate again also more recently. Taekwondo is a derivative of shotokan. Through lineage it's based on incense shop kung fu, which is the 'soft' style part of karate, hence the bouncing and such. The problem with America is that most of karate based training is Very watered down and commercialism has had a great impact on quality. Nevertheless, TKD dojangs in Korea aren't particularly different. Training intensity varies between dojangs and there's a more realistic TKD style besides the point stop sport version, also in America. That one, like hapkido, has some elements of jujutsu in it. Although hapkido made it a specialty as it is more directly related to aikido.

[@droganovic6879]

"Every man already thinks he knows how to fight" Yes. And "everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth" is my counter argument to that. A great quote by a great man 😀

[@lloydwhite3198]

Iron mike

[@droganovic6879]

@@lloydwhite3198 indeed 😀

[@marricksinon2057]

Its not a counter, Both mean the same thing.

[@bigzGillett]

But you're just validating what he said by saying that

[@MrCmon113]

A shitty quote that gets endlessly parroted in the youtube comments. Mike prepared a lot. He didn't just sit around waiting for the next fight, because plans don't work. Also it's precisely when you a rocked that plans and preparation are particularly important. I think wannabe tough guys online like that quote so much, because it makes them believe that their lack of preparedness is just as good as other men's training. Moreover I'm convinced that training 2 times per week and actively thinking about what you're doing before and after is better than training 4 times a week with your brain turned off.

[@PhantomSavage]

Because of icons like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and wushu cinema in general, people tend to think of Martial Arts as this ancient form of hand-to-hand combat that once mastered makes you close to super human in just about any fight you can imagine, when the reality is nothing could be further from the truth. Most marital arts, eastern martial arts in particular, do indeed have ancient roots, but those roots are tied into much more than just "combat". In the Eastern world where the likes of kung-fu and karate were created, philosophy was just as important as the movements themselves, it was spiritually significant in the way one should live one's life. Sometimes a Martial Art was about achieving harmony between mind and body, sometimes a Martial art was about self discipline and willpower, Martial Arts could be about any number of things but the common theme through most of them is they have a focus on life and spiritual improvement of one's self. This is the primary purpose for Martial Arts in the east, historically speaking, particularly those that were taught and practiced by common people. Boxing is not based or designed around a life philosophy in mind, because its not a Martial Art... its a form of hand-to-hand combat, and its purpose is purely about dishing out and managing damage. Hand-to-hand combat and Martial Arts are not the same thing. One is a means of enlightenment, health, and fitness, and the other has a basis in war. That's not to say Martial Arts, even eastern martial arts, can't be dangerous or deadly, quite the opposite in fact. There's a lot of techniques in many different "Martial Art" styles that are very effective means of real combat, but many of these styles were based in a form of combat that was typically taught to military of the time, not common people. Judo and Jiu-Jitsu for example were disciplines taught by Samurai to kill other Samurai in combat, and most of the moves are originally intended to be used in conjunction with actual weapons of war. Judo hip throws originally came from a technique designed to ground an armored opponent quickly so they could be finished off at the neck or eyes with a Tanto that, like modern soldiers and their KBARs, all or most Samurai carried with them into combat. The problem is, even an effective hand-to-hand combat system is no use if you don't put it into actual practice, and putting a hand-to-hand combat system that was designed to kill people into actual use isn't exactly practical or... ethical. Boxing and Kick-Boxing are somewhat special in the fact they focus entirely on strikes, and with proper padding and endurance training two fighters can go at it at relatively full force and have limited risk of actually killing each other. This is not universally true of all hand-to-hand combat systems, and in fact, most have very little means of sparring at full force that would not result in terrible or fatal injury. If you don't fight for real then you won't know how when you actually have to, plain and simple. No amount of sparring compares to the real thing, now matter how hard you think you're going at it, and even if you think the way you're training is pretty intense, sparring in a bubble is of no use to you. If the only people you fight are other people who know the same moves you do, you're not fighting, you're playing a very physical form of chess, which is a game. If a combat system has any worth, it has to be used on people who fight completely differently than you do, and that simply doesn't happen in a bubble, even to the really skilled and experienced. This is why 80 year old dojo masters who should by all rights be absolute beasts of their field often find themselves on the ground with a bloody nose when they get challenged by someone as simple as an amateur boxer... fighting and sparring are not the same, and its a rude wake-up call.

[@psychkick666]

nice essay... i think, dont have time to read thou

[@SpazzMatticusTheGreat]

Ok but a martial art is any sport/activity that revolves around a martial skill. Boxing is a martial art. MMA is a martial art. Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and BJJ are all martial arts. I think a better differentiation would be between a practical martial art and a traditional martial art.

[@joeschmoe9154]

Martial literally means combat or war....

[@pullupsarefun]

Bad take tbh

[@fanofgodjimindiva2497]

No 80yo martial arts master can be ¨a beast¨ in combat, he's 80yo ffs. Maybe if he's 30 years younger..

[@victorribeiro2431]

The great advantage of Boxing over karate is that Boxers can take full contact blows and understand how to deal whit it, while most karate guys doesn't

[@nickcellini5609]

Great video. Honest man telling the truth and not boasting about his exploits.

[@theshadows.sanctum]

For me the biggest difference between the two is definitely the training. In boxing everything revolves around preparing you for a match so the training constantly builds towards a central goal. In karate unfortunately everything revolves around either staying true to historical/ traditional training methods or just being good at the aspect of training.

[@manuelarizzato666]

Well, i can't talk about boxing since i don't practice it, but i can tell you that in karate, once the warm-up is done, everything else is sparring; and yes, it's not full contact: while you can hit the hardest you can on the body, you can't touch your opponent's head, just brush it, that doesn't change that in my karate training i have to spar against someone about 5-10 times per lesson.

[@makokx7063]

@@manuelarizzato666 It's a hit and a stop though, right? Being pushed in a corner as a dude blasts your whole body until the round ends or you drop is an entirely different animal. Full force to the head too.

[@manuelarizzato666]

@@makokx7063 yes, the basic is: when someone hits you the referee stops the fight (or the two guys just stop on their own, if it's just sparring with no referee) he gets a point and then it restarts, however sometimes a hit goes under the belt, or to the shoulders and does no longer count. In therms of durability, stamina and resistance, the boxer overshadows a karate fighter, but in this video it seemed like someone practicing karate is unskilled, doesn't know footwork techniques and how to deal with flurry of punches.. But that's not true. Shure, if a boxer and a karate fighter fought in a boxing-stile match, where the strongest wins, then the tank-like boxer would probably come out on top (unless the karate guy makes a really good training camp focused on endurance), but if the fight is set like karate's kumite, where it's about strategy, mind versatility and faints, then i'm giving it to karate. In conclusion, whit boxing being focused on dealing more damage possible and karate being about who's the more skilled and sharper tactician, those two diciplines are just too different to say "ho, but this is superior in every conceivable way!" instead we should respect one another as athletes.

[@HardHardMaster]

@@makokx7063 not all karate styles are point stop styles. In fact those are a travesty.

[@rikpeol3612]

I don't think you can pin it down to any particular martial art. But it is clear that it always depends on the individual, their skills and their mindset. In fact, a good boxer is a dangerous challenge for any rather static martial artist.

[@donaldatkinson7937]

My father was a boxing coach, we had amateurs and pros, we use to destroy karate guys. We sparred very hard, they were not use to the pressure, or getting hit hard.

[@charlesreed5839]

You shared such a basic truth about every guy knowing how to fight... until he fights. Great video, like always.

[@vicedpowers1750]

I’m glad my dad put me in boxing instead of karate

[@danr5462]

If you don't know how to win a fight with just your hands... then you don't know how to fight. THAT is f-ing gold. Thanks for being my newest subscription!

[@IccyTheOne]

This has always been something I've noticed. Taking karate in my younger years and then becoming a boxer later on, I realized it's because of they way they spar. Kyokushin guys are tough as nails but they aren't used to getting hit in the face. We would punch and kick to the body all day but getting hit in the face is different. The hand skills are different, don't be surprised if Gabriel Varga dominates Karate Combat for this reason.

[@Leinja]

I think the guys from Kyokushin or from it's many offshoots could fight boxers and have a fair chance of winning. Even if they are not used to getting punched to the face, they are used to hard physical contact and they can actually punch and kick with power. But I might be biased since I used to train Ashihara Karate.

[@rezlogan4787]

Not to mention Kyokushin guys stand a chance of growing old without progressive brain problems from constant concussions.

[@IccyTheOne]

@@Leinja Kyokushin guys are no doubt the toughest Karatekas I've seen, but they still get beat out by guys with superior hand skills, i.e. Thai fighters, boxers.

[@Leinja]

@@IccyTheOne If the boxer isn't used to leg kicks, I would actually bet on the Kyokushin guy, given that they both have trained similar amount of time and are around same weight and height. If he is, then it might be a different story but still I don't think boxers would just steamroll Kyokushin guys. Same with Muay Thai guys, they might have an advantage but I don't think they would just steamroll Kyokushin guys. I believe that Kyokushin and its offshoot styles can hold their own against any other stand up fighting style. But again, I might have a bias. As a sidenote, I did some Sanda too so I know little bit about fighting with punches to the head allowed.

[@honigdachs.]

Varga is getting that belt 100%.

[@jangrajewski1017]

I've been training Taekwondo WTF for 4 years as a kid. No guard, only kicks. When I started doing Muay Thai, my every sparring partner asks me if I trained TKD, because my kicks are pretty decent. However it was in the begginers group. When I went for advanced group, the guys started picking me apart with thise punches. I really don't know how to keep my guard up and how to defend, I most often just lean backwards or take a step back. It really sucks, because relearning new habit of keeping your hands up is very difficult.

[@jw-nz2vx]

Leaning straight back is a good way to get knocked out. Back away at angles, preferably with your hands up. Your opponent can close distance in a straight line much faster than you can create distance. Don't get discouraged. Try sparring some rounds with only boxing techniques to get you used to relying on your hands for offense and defense.

[@hippy1002]

guys I do not want to mix it up with. MU THAI fighters, and the ground and pound guys.

[@kalreynolds5829]

That's the big weakness of TKD. You either try to strike and return to your position or land inside their guard. If you land inside their guard you have to know that you're doing with your boxing or you'll be slaughtered, and if you try to return to position you're already retreating and anyone who knows what they're doing will push in while you're moving backwards. Kicks are nice, but they're niche and you'll overrely on them in TKD. The most common kicks actual fighters throw out are leg kicks, and they're often less committed-TKD has you throw your hip for maximum power, but watch an MMA fighter throw a roundhouse or a front kick to the leg, it's stiff, often impacts with their shin not their foot, but it maintains their stance and their guard-minimising the risk that it will let their opponent damage them with their boxing. Save your good TKD kicks for when you have the right range for them, and focus on keeping your guard up and boxing in close. Just learning how to hold your hands to avoid getting punched and keeping a good distance will help, and if they open that up too much, you still have kicking. But you're going to have to learn some boxing, because TKD just gives you some basic punches and a lot of blocking and those just don't work unless you're planning to convert them. it's not worthwhile to expend the same amount of energy that someone does punching you diverting that punch. You gotta learn to take that punch, find a guard to mitigate them, and punch back. And yeah, you have to keep your hands up. Your instructors let you down big time with that. A big part of my TKD experience was landing a kick and then being corrected on the guard because they knew full well you should expect to be punched after a kick. Your hands have to be up, they're not doing you good anywhere else.

[@dirtyandnasty9011]

My trainer had a good technique that was to put a headgear on us, bearpaws (how is it called in english ?) on his hands, and he hitted head only with it for 3mn straight. You're not allowed to go out of the corner, nor hit, you can only block or avoid with bust movements. Once you get hit with that paw you learn fast to keep your gloves in front of those cheeks and move 😂 I miss this good guy.

[@scottstout6836]

Currently training TKD in my mid 50s. In teens I trained gym contact amateur kickboxing. You're one hundred percent correct about kickers. I've had the wind knocked out of me in kickboxing, but the fight didn't end. You just keep going and events you start to breathe again. Kicking is good to close the distance. But Olympic TKD guys I train with more think that TKD is complete and that they're fight ready, despite never sparring full contact let alone punching to the head.

[@austinsavage]

Olympic TKD is WTF TKD, and we always sparred full contact with gear of course, just without punching to the head. There were also occasional KOs in sparring which is expected when everyone is allowed to kick as hard as they want. But that was my school, not sure about other TKD schools though. Olympic athletes definitely sparred full contact, but they are just not street-ready though

[@moustachio334]

I’ve gone pretty hard in Thai boxing sparring but we have enough control to not knock each other out with our kicks. Sounds like low level fighters with no control.

[@monkeyboy275bobo8]

@@austinsavage Why is it that you would knock each other out with crazy kicks to the head but not throw punches? Is it just to keep TKD its own thing? Like allowing punches to the head would result in people not throwing all those fancy kicks which TKD is all about because you would just get punched in the face for trying? Is there some other reason too? I mean thats fair enough, people do TKD for kicking and there are other combat sports to throw hands or mix things up. Im just curious, would allowing punches to the head render most TKD techniques useless, would it make sense to train to still use those techniques efficently against someone whos trying to punch you in the face or would it just be to simulare to other sports and therefor its more about keeping TKD pure? As far is i know kickboxing had a simulare problem, people would just throw hands so they specificly made a rule that forced people to kick a certain number of times each round.

[@mynameismynameis666]

​@@monkeyboy275bobo8 imho for a very simple reason: to make it more accessible and distinct at the same time and to better integrate it into schools and youth-activity . old school tkd definitely had strikes to the head (and elbows, hand edge techniques, palm strikes, knees, throws, all sorts of grappling...) and they can be found in some of the older technique compendium books (and boy oh boy, that is quite a revelation about what would theoretically be found under the surface of things - but unfortunately swept under the rug in order to create modern sports taekwondo) then again: you don't want kids to strike each others brain anyway (see: long term effects of repeated strikes to the head). and until they develop the athleticism for proper dangerous kicks to the head, you will at least have gotten them somewhat fit disciplined enough and mostly slippery like little eels due to the focus on dexterity... And even if you can't fight, the idea that you can reduces the probability that you will, just because of the postural change... (at least if you are not out looking for trouble). so even if i don't think it is a viable base for a fighting sport, it is the best entry level martial arts in my opinon. If you don't send your kids to some McDojo for grandmas, then not a minute of their lives will be wasted doing it.

[@kalreynolds5829]

​@@monkeyboy275bobo8 It's because a) TKD is a kicking art. You use roundhouse kicks, sidekicks, back kicks, crescent kicks, axe kicks, spinning heel kicks in TKD, and often in combination for grading. Comparatively for strikes you grade on jabs, crosses, knifehands, spear fingers, palm shots 2 out of 5 of those are dangerously useless. At least my school also included knees and 3 elbow strikes. The most common strike in olympic and sport TKD is the front foot roundhouse, which is probably the weakest strike in TKD kicking, but it is the quickest to fire, and will get the "pop" from the guard the refs are after. You aren't fighting for the KO or the points over a round, you're fighting to the point of a good strike. b) a punch is less effective at scoring a point than a roundhouse off the front foot. c) because taekwondo is a kicking art, you are expected to be able to aim your kicks at the body and the head, with the head being more difficult and impressive. Allowing punches to the head would not make TKD useless, because the sport of TKD favours low risk quick strikes at range. However, most TKD practitioners will freely admit that they''re not prepared for close in fights, punch ups or grapples. We had the Judo guys come in for a day once a year, and at camp, we'd look at other martial arts especially grappling. But a big problem with TKD or Karate as it's taught for people who are often looking at sport is that it just doesn't prepare people for a fight, where they'll get punched in the head, the liver, where kicks will get them thrown down if they're careless, and where you need to have experience being beaten to keep your head.

[@Demonizer5134]

I became a third degree black belt in TaeKwonDo and I must say that there's almost nothing I learned in the process that would actually prepare me for a real fight. In the 15 years of doing TaeKwonDo I never once took any actual shots. I'm not saying it's a waste of time, but it most certainly is not something that I would rely on for self-defense. For the last 5 years I've trained boxing and Muay Thai and there is no comparison. We are pushing ourselves to the limit non-stop for an hour per session. In TKD our session would typically involve 15 minutes of stretching, 20 minutes of forms, 15 minutes of punch/kick drills, and maybe only 10 minutes of light sparring. We had 60 year old women getting through the class. I wish I would have started boxing at a younger age.

[@CoG30]

Boxing or muay thai for a street fight?

[@KiKiChamp123]

@@CoG30 I don’t do either boxing or Muay Thai but I believe win a street fight it’s only as good as you can apply them. Boxing would be easier to throw more attacks since Muay Thai relies on elbows, knees and kicks. Again, I don’t have experience in either of these martial arts. Only effective as you can apply them

[@jonasstahl9826]

@@CoG30 In Streetfights always boxing, kicks are difficult or impossible in regular clothes. On top of the risk of slipping and falling with your shoes on the wet street. Kicks are way to risky because you can fall easy and knock you self out or get stuck in the clothes of your oponment. Without kicks boxing is clearly at an advantage.

[@piotrd.4850]

@@jonasstahl9826 especially in colder days, against e.g. overweight opponent in thick winter clothing - boxer's instict is hit to the head, which is usually still exposed.

[@Han-nk3io]

I got a 3rd Dan TKD too. I have knock a guy out with my roundhouse irl but i get what you are saying. Modern TKD is lacking head defense which is the basic of fighting. Keep TKD as a complimental martial art add in some boxing and grappling then you are good.

[@ImprobableJoe]

When I was in the Marines we did some "boxing" and some "hand-to-hand" training, pugil sticks and such, and much later I found out that 90% of it was to make sure everyone had actually been punched in the face a few times, and believed that they could fight so they wouldn't freeze up in combat. Our grabass psuedo-MMA in the barracks was much more effective fight training, but knowing you can take a few real solid hits and keep fighting was probably just as valuable.

[@moz5831]

”If you don’t know how to win the fight with just your hands, you don’t know how how to box - and you don’t know how to fight”. Well put Sir, indeed! Thank you!

[@samjohnson5680]

Nice video coach. Last time I sparred Kickboxing with my friend who later became pro boxer, he told me I needed to work on my boxing more cause I focused more on the kicking

[@redbullwithoutapause7835]

sounds like a true good friend. think back to a big MT or K1 head kick win. 9 times out of ten i bet the guy who won, dominated the punches.

[@crisalcantara7671]

Kicking is for long to medium range , short or close range is for hands

[@DeeBeeScribe]

Boxers have better footwork, rhythm, conditioning and they're more fluid. Also, Boxers spar more.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

In reality it all matters to the individual. If the individual is just better at fighting. They are going to win the fight karate or boxer

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Let me give you an example. DB Even if you went and learned 10 different styles of fighting and came to fight me, I would rag doll you

[@evanmcclure67]

Truth, I went from Karate to boxing, and the training is different overall. They can go for ALOT of time. when I started judo we'd randori for an hour.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

You understand now. Bozo? You thought you put some kind of smart ass answer mr. Footwork again conditioning

[@neinbruderja7519]

Harry the type of guy mentioned in the beginning of the video. An absolute archetypal prototype, by any means.

[@marcludwick5941]

As a man who has trained in western style boxing, and also trains in judo, I'll share my opinion why I believe western boxing is the best hand to hand defense. First off foot stance width. In boxing, a shoulder width foot stance allows for better lateral movement which keeps you from absorbing damage. Then it's shorter punch angles. I've sparred against muay Thai practitioners and I can see their punches from a mile away. Also my high hands and parries kept me from eating damage. Now a good stiff jab which I think all boxers should utilize came in handy against a kickboxer that I sparred on occasion. I would spam the jab relentlessly which kept him off guard and would keep him from being able to load up any effective kicks. A boxer is also taught to use his shoulders as well to deflect incoming blows simply by turning in slightly. Which brings me to another point. I feel as karate, Kung fu etc have very exaggerated movements where as in boxing everything is very compact, head movement is short and precise which allows you to stay in the pocket. Lateral movement allows you to create an angle and doesn't take you out of the fight for a reset. Boxers in my opinion are also able to generate power which much shorter punches. And my main reason for believing boxing is better is because I believe that many eastern martial arts are way to restricted by form and tradition. There's not enough street fighter mentality. In the movies it's ok to have super respect for your opponent, but in the real world. Tradition needs to take a back seat to survival. And boxing allows for that. Dirty boxing, clinching, using the crown of ur head under an opponents chin when up close. Subtle head butts to cut an opponent, short elbows when in close, punching low on purpose once or twice to let your opponent know you're here to demolish them. Eastern martial arts there's too much bowing and respect. Which has its purpose but not in a survival situation.

[@sumacdude]

After a couple decades of taking any fight I could get and training my ass off (out of love for prize fighting), I found myself amazed at how tough other people were. It’s VERY important to know that.

[@pyronicdesign]

Omg this is so true! I'm not trained in karate, but Chinese Kung Fu and when I was in basic training we had lots of martial artists who would spar on Sundays in the barracks. One of them was a golden glove boxer, and when we sparred at first he was dominant. Then we started talking martial arts and he showed us lots of stuff that he did differently than us. We all learned head movement. And spacing from him, and we got loads of experience actually pressure testing our technique, and by far the most common weakness thenother martial arts had was that we just did not have as much actual fight experience as him. Sure, my master sparred with me for hours a day, and we trained 4 hours a day every day, bit sparring is not an actual fight. We were all outclassed my him until we got used to the pressure.

[@BatCaveOz]

The last time someone won a fight using Kung Fu was in the 1970's.

[@dr.dylansgame5583]

@@BatCaveOz To be fair that's usually because a system has a flaw or weakness that can be capitlized on this is true for all martial arts including Boxing. Yet you don't see people picking on boxers for getting crumpled by a few good Oblique Kicks. For instance I see Wing Chun constantly get torn a new one because the so called "Masters" of it train the shit like Tai Chi. Yet old school Bare Knuckle boxing techniques share many similarities and would knock any average Joe into next week. Simply put it's not the style it's the user also mixing arts helps deal with there weaknesses once I added Boxing and Muay Thai to it the few weaknesses I had from the style were all but gone. It was just Missing stuff like good Head Movement, Footwork, Angles, and a Solid Guard.

[@HardHardMaster]

Of course, because you practiced kung fu. There's no realistic pressure testing in kung fu and probably it wouldn't even help much

[@HardHardMaster]

@@BatCaveOz in a movie.

[@HardHardMaster]

@@dr.dylansgame5583 you mean, just about everything that's important?

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Everyone tries to beat everyone else in their own game. And by beating someone else in their own game, proves that your style and skill is better even in their game.

[@merkins87]

Never bring scissors to the rock party!

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@stanclark3992 The point to my comment is the karate fighter wants to prove to the boxer that his hand striking is superior.

[@TaijDevon]

You just described the history of Martial Arts. Check out Jonathan Bluestien's book.

[@HeiniSauerkraut]

True. I was lucky enough to figure that out for myself, without getting smashed. I was a quite good traditional Karate practitioner in kumite point fighting in my younger years. We did much more randori (sparring) than the average karateka, and also included included simple throws out of the clinch and falling (Judo), because it was the time Raphael Agayev had his first successes. We also used also extensively handpads in our training. At one time we did a demonstration, and at the same event some young amateur boxers also took part. We talked to each other, and they showed us their work with the handpads. At this point with my own experience, I knew that my chances in a full contact fight with one of them would have been very slim! :-D The guys were quite nice, and they said they were very impressed with our fast high kicks. But all in all, I think we on the other side were much more impressed with their fast combinations and the power of their strikes.

[@crisalcantara7671]

Point fighting is the weakest form of karate sport , funakushi would be ashamed of what his style has become

[@HeiniSauerkraut]

@@crisalcantara7671 Yes that Funakoshi who didn´t fight at all, and who was against competition! I think his version of Kata only is the "weakest" form of Karate, if you look only from a fighters perspective. I didn´t only practice point fighting, I also sparred with many practioners of many striking arts, including Thai Boxers, and I know my limitations. I also sparred with Kata Dancers, and no matter how good their technique and their speed was, they all couldn´t fight. 😉 They don´t had to, as long as they wouldn´t delusion themselfes about their fighting abilities. Martial arts has many aspects and benefits. It don´t have to be focused on fighting .

[@matthewzito6130]

I think this applies to more than just karate fighters. If you're used to one style of fighting, with training partners who fight the same way you do, it can leave you unprepared for someone who uses different tactics and techniques. ... Also, I would argue that it's inherently easier to press forward and crowd an opponent than it is to be evasive and create distance. That's one reason why pure grapplers with little or no striking ability did well in the early days of MMA. A wrestler can close with a boxer as easily as a boxer can crowd a kicker.

[@mattmiller7345]

I made the same mistake when I lived in Huizhou City, Guangdong Province. I was a Taekwondo instructor. Got into a sparring match with one of the guys from the Sanda school next door. Thought I could finish it with my kicks, and I got punished hard. Hands, low kicks, standing grapples and throws. Still taught Taekwondo after that and still do in Australia, but with added elements. I’m actually grateful now, 15 years after the fact, that I got thrashed. It showed me some of what I was lacking.

[@danielhounshell2526]

I really think it comes down to how restrictive the combat sport you train for is. Sport Karate is an extremely restrictive sport, and it's what most karate schools base their sparring around as well. You can still develop extremely impressive skills within that framework, and those skills can even serve you well in full contact fights, provided that the person takes the time to prepare for that transition. Machida is probably the best example of what the sport Karate framework can do for a fighter when they actually adjust it to full contact fighting. However, if you just drop a sport Karate guy, even an extremely good one, into a full contact bout, they're going to get picked apart because they've never prepared for that context. Boxing is much less restrictive even though it has fewer permitted striking techniques.

[@horaceholloway]

"There's really no excuse not to be a well rounded fighter these days". Yes. 1000% this.

[@privatekarateka3745]

I'm so glad that I watched Baki the grappler as a kid and learned the importance of not being tied down by style, tradition or martial arts dogma.🤣

[@kenshirosama7227]

Baki is so goofy yet so binge worthy it is one of my favorite guilty pleasures and I can't wait for the new season

[@davidthomas9190]

Absolutely spot on and all with the vocal talent of a top level voice over guy. You got my sub brother 👊🏻

[@jamesstewart3505]

In the 70s I and my brother studied karate from James Harris in KC, a champion and of a claim. Excellent instructor but always was honest to his students when explained learning karate will keep you out of fights from the confidence it instilled in you. He stated at that time a skilled boxer would defeat a skilled karate trained because most were not used to being hit,hurt and continuing to fight! I appreciated his honesty from the man you were paying to learn karate from!

[@ehisey]

Folks really underestimate the effect of getting punched in the face, and just how much work it takes to actually hit some one for effect.

[@HardHardMaster]

He should have taught you better karate instead.

[@jamesstewart3505]

@@HardHardMaster Hardly worth a reply but look at the comments and Caine have you ever squared of with a trained boxer? .....

[@HardHardMaster]

@@jamesstewart3505 yes, plenty. have you ever squared off with a real kyokushin black belt? My point was, if your teacher had that attitude I immediately doubt his fundamental understanding of the origins of karate. Even generally good teachers often do not know much about it. Especially in some of the commercialized styles.

[@kalreynolds5829]

@@jamesstewart3505 Dude's never been in a fight and projects the fact he's obsessed with lame 80s action films onto everyone else talking the details of the ins and outs of martial arts, because at some point he studied karate and thinks it has made him a fighter. McDojo wannabe. He's got no clue. He'd take one real hit and cry.

[@amrisyafari3946]

I remember my first live sparring match with a real boxer. Threw everything i had for the first 1 minute, while he just kept dodging and defending. Then he said, “my turn” ... turned out i didn’t know how to defend against his attacks. 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️

[@kichmadev]

Lol great story! Reminds me of a time I had to put my friend in his place, he started boxing for a couple of months and he's a strong guy, so he was bullying some weaker beginners. He kept challenging me for sparring (because I was 5yrs more experienced) but I refused until I heard he's beating people up... So then we sparred.. He rushed me and I stood my ground defending shots, first opening I saw I blasted him with a hook so hard that even I was surprised by the sound of impact. One shot - sparring challenges over, bullying beginners over, smarter friend now with a black eye, all around a good day I guess.

[@The_Custos]

One of Boxers' greatest strengths is their patience. Kickers are often too eager and flashy (been there, done that), boxers can be used to fighting for many minutes with all that involves.

[@kalreynolds5829]

@@The_Custos And it uses so much energy, and can be dodged and deflected so easily. Traditional martial arts isn't really ready for the flurry. A big one I remember a lot is my knife defenses. And the fact that one of my instructors demonstrated that it would be useless against a "sewing machine attack"-you are going to get stabbed, multiple times, and probably slashed up and down the arms too: give them your wallet. Same thinking applies to someone coming at you with a flurry. Unless you train day in and day out to block that you're getting hit. And if you do block it you're retreating and wasting similar energy to striking on blocks. Whereas some of the most effective techniques I have learned are the basic bullrush or to duck under hands, get behind, sweep the hand up to lock one arm and their head off side and move backwards so their feet are off ground. So much more effective than any amount of striking, you can shrug off unsupported back elbows. Or the bullrush? If you're big enough and can get inside the guy's guard and knock him down it's over. The fancy kicks do nothing there, even the boxing does nothing there. Patience is good too, but once someone has gassed themselves kicking or blocking waiting to kick, knocking them down is a great option.

[@AmityvilleFan]

Oh, yeah, absolutely true. I'll never forget when during practice (as a teen) I was put together with a person one head taller, so I felt like zero chance. Decided to move within the person's range, body-to-body distance. I got "slapped like half a dozen times with zero effectiveness (it was bothering, but I shrugeed it off), landed a full-body-force punch on the person's stomach. I won so fast...

[@capricola8682]

I joined boxing in high school and then joined karate associated with JKA. I like to combine both of it. Karate is great for distance management. Boxing is great for close encounters and combos. Why limit yourself with a particular style if you can grow and learn the strength and weakness of other styles.

[@christophercook2177]

Oss

[@joelsalminen5309]

Started my martial art career with karate and taido, then struggled against a smaller boxer. Started doing boxing, then I struggled against a smaller jujitsu guy. That's when I picked up jujitsu, but then I struggled against a wrestler of the same size, so I started doing wrestling too and to this day I mix all of them into my workouts and sparring, hahaha.

[@xenochrist15]

What a wild, mixed martial arts ride lol

[@joelsalminen5309]

@@xenochrist15 Worth every bruise, loss, cut and tear of sweat, martial arts have become a way of life for me. :)

[@xenochrist15]

@@joelsalminen5309 That's awesome. Sounds like it's pushed you to improve yourself as a person. That's the point of martial arts - defense, discernment, and personal growth.

[@joelsalminen5309]

@@xenochrist15 Oh yeah, absolutely, they helped me conquer my teenage depression, angst and grow into far more confident, relaxed and well mannered man. It's like they say, everyone needs a hobby that is just right for them.

[@asiansensation622]

Back in Highschool I had my second degree blackbelt in Tang Soo Do. I got together with some buddies to spar with people who had other training, or in some cases no training at all. One of my friends was a boxer, and that was the day my ribcage learned what a "swarmer" was. He ate a kick with his guard coming in, and as soon as we were toe to toe my mind went blank. I had to relearn a bunch of things that day.

[@chrisnameless8325]

I'm a karate guy and love traditional marital arts and honestly all marital arts. This question can be boiled down to why do point fighters lose to contact fighters. Honestly I think that it is leading question considering the growth of MMA and how many people do great in it with a back ground in traditional marital arts and yes karate. Marital arts is a tool bag you still need to learn how to use the tools.

[@hailhydreigon2700]

I left my Karate class after I heard the instructor say "All you need is one good punch and you can finish the fight. You don't need to go to the ground or do any of that Jiu Jitsu bullshit." I love Karate, but if these modern, boxer-fighting Karateka want it to keep up with modern times, they need to evolve (or devolve, depending who you ask) it.

[@Wingzero90939]

Same for me it was taekwondo but I kind of figured that out the hard way when I went to my friend’s gym and he was training to compete in the golden gloves competition for boxing… A punch to the nose/mouth really puts things in perspective. My hand fighting sucked so bad. So the way I look at it is if it’s a specific skill that you want to get good at just go train with someone who’s the best at that. I mean a hockey player can skate but they would suck at figure skating and vice versa. Every karate or Taekwondo person learns how to punch but not like a boxer...

[@BWater-yq3jx]

I mean that's actually pretty much true for most streetfights against untrained opponents.

[@HardHardMaster]

He was right though.

[@HardHardMaster]

@@southtxguitarist8926 the early UFC was fixed. Gracie marketing stunt. Read up on it. Karate does have takedown defenses as well as takedowns (and throws, locks, chokes... )

[@HardHardMaster]

@@southtxguitarist8926 okay I should have elaborated on the 'fixed' comment. I didn't say or mean that people were paid somehow to 'take a dive' or to throw the game. What I meant by fixed was the pairing. The Gracies were formidable grapplers indeed, BUT the opponents they faced were handpicked by themselves, so that they could be certain enough of being able to defeat them. Yes they beat world-class grapplers at their own game, because grappling was and is their forté. They however did the same with the strikers and that's where they were not strong. So they intentionally didn't face world class strikers or strikers who could deal with takedowns and grappling well. Nowadays the balance between grapplers and strikers in terms of wins has shifted, because more strike oriented fighters have learned how to deal with grappling oriented fighters. This is the more realistic conclusion, as opposed to the early UFC. You may say you're a karate practitioner but what makes all the difference here is what style you practice. I think I know which styles you do not practice from your answer, because you should have known what I was talking about when I described the curriculum. Or maybe your school just doesn't teach those things at your level, which is just not great to say the least. Oh btw, I myself have also trained judo, BJJ and even sumo for years, besides (lifelong) karate and many other striking styles. I don't speak out of ignorance but out of experience. I'm getting drawn into a sort of strawman here it seems but I'll go along this far. I'll just state that you cannot categorically say that grapplers beat strikers (or the other way around). It depends on the striking style and it depends on the person. What I can specifically say is that certain karate styles absolutely do have tactics for dealing with grapplers, as it is meant to be a complete fighting system and in fact, the whole origin of karate is very close to grappling (without drawn out ground games). What people perceive karate to be these days, a long range point striking sport without any grappling at all, is not at all what karate was meant to be and it is a very poor perversion of the original. This is because some, or even most styles have drifted too far from their origins, for certain non practical reasons. Also I'd like to mention Ali vs Inoki, where a world class boxer humiliated a world class grappler/shoot fighter. Just to show what can happen when a good striker is properly prepared for 'the better grappler'.

[@red-clad-vlad]

I've told the story a few times, but, gonna go ahead and repeat it anyway. I'm a really bad boxer, I can't even call myself that to be honest, I literally just hit the sandbag somewhat regularly. I don't like violence since I've had way too much if it back in middle to highschool. I've only spared for fun with a few friends. I was picking up a friend's brother from Karate practice. And one of his teacher's assistants thought he could use me for a demonstration in front of the kids. Gave some weird half glove things, and told me to come at him and hit him however I wanted, and that he would defend himself. Now, despite my fighting skills being barely existent, and the fact that he was training in fighting daily... I was over 10kg heavier. It made no sense to me, i didn't know what was the point of it. I practically just jabbed his chin and he was down. After he got up, he wanted a repeat and he came on the offense. I don't know what's allowed in Karate, I don't know the rules. But, when he got all up in by business actually striking, I elbowed him pretty hard because that was all that I could really do. He cursed at me pretty bad afterwards.

[@jCrItCh5]

Love your Stuff Ramsey.. You have a brilliant way of putting the basics across...

[@Wingzero90939]

Coach Ramsey, you have mentioned previously that you had some of Donnie Yen’s stunt team guys train at your gym. Just out of curiosity how do you think they would do against the average person who knows how to box would they fair better than your average karate guy? Obviously they’re not professional fighters but they are incredibly athletic and I’m assuming know how to fight to some extent given that to be a stunt person they usually do know various kinds of martial arts... The most common for them I would assume Wushu, Boxing and Sanda maybe...

[@randallmcgrath9345]

Also Tai Chi.

[@merkins87]

1 more comprehensive conditioning regimen 2 punches to the face 3 full-contact sparring

[@merkins87]

4 commercialisation/watering down of martial arts

[@KrishnarajRaoUrbanNaxal]

I see and appreciate your point. BUT I feel the answer kind of depends on the temperament and style of the boxer and the karateka. A full-contact Kyokushin Karateka can possibly win a fight against an amateur boxer of equal skill level, provided he doesn't get knocked out by a well-placed punch.

[@scout3058]

Delusion, my friend. A poorly trained boxer can move circles around a traditionally trained karate guy. Go ahead...use that horse stance and that reverse punch and see how well it works out for ya. (This comment provided by a former Tang Soo Do practitioner.)

[@saihemebillings2820]

Bruh I grew up in Harlem in the 80’s guys who was just in the boxer gym on a regular basis beat karate guys all the time on the street. Most times boxer with amateur experience beat Karate guys who was bigger then them with black belts badly. I say this coming from a martial arts family who did Judo. Boxers are not equal because boxers fight all the time on top of running and jumping rope. There’s a vast difference in conditioning on the boxers side karate guys don’t have.

[@Wingzero90939]

@@saihemebillings2820 Not even just that it’s that most karate schools, taekwondo included are basically daycare centers for children… In a boxing gym even if the quality is poor like really bad those guys are still getting punched. Whereas in a karate school, or Taekwondo school, what are the odds you’re going to find someone who knows how to fight and trains like an Olympic athlete... boxing has always been a Poor man’s sport, and those guys fight for for their food/ piece of the pie... If we’re comparing a top tier gym that might have better athletes and you’re pumping out Olympic level old-school taekwondo guys maybe they know how to fight but that is still a big if...

[@BWater-yq3jx]

If the Kyokushin guy lands some of those low kicks before the boxer realises he's not used to head punches.

[@chrisprad8325]

@@scout3058 you must not be familiar with kyokushin

[@DoggosAndJiuJitsu]

Solid logic. I've had 30 competition matches and it's very different now vs my first 5-10. And I've been the first for a few competitors, and I've seen the panic in their eyes. If you've seen real panic, you know the look. This is especially true for dance arts like karate vs combat arts like boxing.

[@hmongusa7228]

That's exactly what Bruce Lee has said 60 years ago, "it looks good in class but does work (on the street)!"

[@Kenny-Alpha]

You mean it does NOT work on the streets!

[@rykehuss3435]

No one is commenting on the training. Boxing training is grueling and builds you up to be a fighter. Boxing gyms put a large emphasis on physical conditioning. 99% of Karate dojos are daycares, for kids and/or adults. Just hobbyist stuff, even the black belts are rarely in any kind of actual fighting shape in karate dojos. Karate is mostly a hobby, while boxing is a combat sport and the gyms reflect this.

[@justinfilipovic8939]

Yeah like if somebody practiced Muay Thai the same way most people today practice Karate they wouldn't be very formidable fighters either

[@MrCmon113]

I'm of the opposite opinion. Karate and other asian martial arts overemphasize conditioning, while in boxing you start to spar right away, no matter if you're still fat and/or weak.

[@rykehuss3435]

@@MrCmon113 That depends on the gym. Most modern boxing gyms dont let beginners spar. Neither did mine, I spent 2 months in the beginner course learning the basics before I was allowed to spar. Everybody at my club goes through the beginner course. Boxing is highly focused on conditioning, actual fighting is very demanding. So is sparring. It doesnt matter how hard you hit or how good you are technically, conditioning and grit trumps all.

[@garysmith2983]

Being a black belt in karate and a purple belt in Japanese Ju Jitsu, training in BJJ has been a very humbling experience for the last year. The level of physicality, especially during sparring is very different to traditional martial arts and suspect if you don’t spar in the style you do you won’t be prepared for a real fight situation. I remember my Sensei in karate telling us that if we ever had a confrontation with someone you know who boxed, the best thing you could do was get away. This struck me as very surprising as we were constantly being told karate is the best all round martial art and to stick with it. I’m proud of my black belt, but wish BJJ had been more available here in the U.K. 20 years ago.

[@TheMixedPlateFrequency]

I always felt like out of all the styles of striking. I always felt that Boxing felt more versatile in terms of defense, offense, balance, and movement. Not sure how to explain it but when boxers strike they always seem to never stay on the center line constantly, even when they go for a punch, they always have these back up defense checks and they are most proficient with their hands. Since you only need a particular amount of force and accuracy to knock someone out, i feel boxers have a wide range of options when attacking in generating knock out power an accuracy. Most other styles it seems when they do something, the technique they do commits really hard, and when they miss, the anyone can pretty much punish them for it, but a boxer can take much more advantage in creating opportunities for any type of miss or block. I also felt that Muay Thai boxers is great against Boxers, as i felt that their techniques interrupts boxers movements and range, and muay thai boxers are also still really good with their hands, not as good as boxers, but probably 2nd best to boxers. I also feel Muay Thai boxers wide range of leg kicks give boxers trouble, that and most times if they keep taking free powerful leg kicks, that will most likely slow the boxer down and probably stunt his movement more, thus probably making the boxers techniques became less efficient and not working as it would if they had their movement. But I feel that boxers and muay thai fighters would have an extremely difficult time against grapplers, bjj practitioners and wrestlers, due to them only having 1 type of defense against them, which would be keeping away or keeping them at the farthest striking range to not get too close. But I feel Karate would probably do better against grapplers, wrestlers and bjj practitioners, compared to boxers and muay thai boxers. Since I think Karate does have a some defenses against take downs, and grappling. But anyways that's just what i always thought.

[@HardHardMaster]

Why didn't your teacher teach you some boxing then? It's a central part of the most realistic styles of karate. Think about this.

[@bradlwykfulbright]

Well said. I have been following you for a year or so. Having an online coach has helped me up my boxing amd kickboxing a great deal, thank you, Ramsey! I tend to stick to focusing on boxing technique during my workouts, I work on legs and some kicks; you have to keep ALL of your core nice and strong! My dad was a golden gloves in the 60's, showed us a few things, works in street fights. I got bullied ALOT. Im a skinny guy. Then i learned to box. Wanna know the secret to quickly gettong your eye hand cooridination, together, fast? Stack pennies on yer elbow, as yer hand is resting on your neck muscle, palm up is wayyyy harder, and try to fling yer hand down to catch them ALL. You do this until you can catch 2 stacks of 10. ALL OF THEM. pops told us this is how you box, do this and you will not get beat up anymore. He was right! I have started learning some prating mantis, just for the forms; I STILL box my heavy bag, every day. For hours! Bless ya'll, COACH!

[@solomonstello]

I'm going to try this...

[@metrfulton9708]

Thanks for the honesty😁

[@240fxst]

I didnt even have to watch the video. The most obvious reasons is boxers are use to getting hit in the face and body continuously and still maintain their composure due to repetitive training everytime they go in the ring.

[@FredKuneDo]

There is also a problem of misunderstanding which kicks are most useful against a boxer, when people coming from "pointfight-based" Karate styles or Taekwondo but also Kickboxing Rulesets: They get used to fight opponents who are also want to use their "long range weapons" and not someone who prefers punching distance. Because of that habit most Karateka and Taekwondoka often focus ther training too much on long kicking techniques and to less on the most basic front kicks, which can be used way faster and both agressive and defensive. I mean, everyone in Savate, Muay Thai, Dutch/Japanese Kickboxing, but even Kyokushin knows how fast front push kicks are really more important to keep or create distance, than powerful acrobatic kicks.

[@jcheever37]

Can confirm the teep is probably my favorite kick even if landing them isn't nearly as satisfying as a good round kick . Funnily enough I learned to teep from my tkd/kickboxing buddy one day when sparring. I had never ate a solid teep before and he launched me as I stepped in. It was then I developed a healthy respect for the power and versatility of a good teep.

[@moustachio334]

I took TKD when Tyson and Holyfield were making headlines so I had a sense of reality. My dad would teach me how to move like Ali after TKD classes and he made sure I had a good punch. I was also big into Bruce Lee and sparred strong side forward. I plowed through other kids my age and paired with teens and adults after. We had a rule about kicking below the belt and I remember being paired with the tallest most talented teenager. He went easy on me and let me practice hitting above his hips which as tall me! But without my dad, I would not have been the best in my age group and I moved up very quickly. Unfortunately I got pissed off when I didn’t make black belt and instead of continuing to train, I quit to do something else. It was probably a good thing. I still have the same flexibility and do Thai boxing now. I can’t fight strong side forward in that though. It took me 20 years until I found a gym where I lived that I liked. I wish I could have started kickboxing at 18. I remember begging my dad to let me join the local boxing gym and he wouldn’t let me do it. He wanted me to focus on going to college. So I put martial arts on the backburner and coincidentally spent many years depressed, reckless, and suicidal.

[@wkanost]

One of the first conditioning drills I did as boxer was taking punches to the body and head. The ability to take punches gives a fighter the advantage over someone who hasn’t.

[@k1dn1ce76]

Yeah,I remember seeing footage of Rooney hitting Tyson in the body with a medicine ball. It's gotta help you take shots better when you're used to feeling strikes land.

[@lsporter88]

Absolutely right. Wise Man, great video.

[@snakey934Snakeybakey]

Without saying anything about the actual content of the video; absolutely love this guy's way of talking and delivery. Measured and deliberate. He doesn't waste words, he explains his points simply and in a way that's easy to follow and hard to refute! It's rare that I have such a good first impression of a KZbinr

[@RamseyDewey]

Thanks!

[@Docinaplane]

I'm a traditionally trained karate fighter. Adding boxing to my skill set was the best MA related thing I ever did.

[@TheMixedPlateFrequency]

I always felt like out of all the styles of striking. I always felt that Boxing felt more versatile in terms of defense, offense, balance, and movement. Not sure how to explain it but when boxers strike they always seem to never stay on the center line constantly, even when they go for a punch, they always have these back up defense checks and they are most proficient with their hands. Since you only need a particular amount of force and accuracy to knock someone out, i feel boxers have a wide range of options when attacking in generating knock out power an accuracy. Most other styles it seems when they do something, the technique they do commits really hard, and when they miss, the anyone can pretty much punish them for it, but a boxer can take much more advantage in creating opportunities for any type of miss or block. I also felt that Muay Thai boxers is great against Boxers, as i felt that their techniques interrupts boxers movements and range, and muay thai boxers are also still really good with their hands, not as good as boxers, but probably 2nd best to boxers. I also feel Muay Thai boxers wide range of leg kicks give boxers trouble, that and most times if they keep taking free powerful leg kicks, that will most likely slow the boxer down and probably stunt his movement more, thus probably making the boxers techniques became less efficient and not working as it would if they had their movement. But I feel that boxers and muay thai fighters would have an extremely difficult time against grapplers, bjj practitioners and wrestlers, due to them only having 1 type of defense against them, which would be keeping away or keeping them at the farthest striking range to not get too close. But I feel Karate would probably do better against grapplers, wrestlers and bjj practitioners, compared to boxers and muay thai boxers. Since I think Karate does have a some defenses against take downs, and grappling. But anyways that's just what i always thought.

[@Docinaplane]

@@TheMixedPlateFrequency Nice comment! Overall, that seems pretty accurate to me in a broad sense, When it comes down to a fight between just two fighters, it's more "not the dog in the fight, but rather the fight in the dog", lol

[@HardHardMaster]

What style?

[@Docinaplane]

@@HardHardMaster What question?

[@HardHardMaster]

@@Docinaplane what karate style

[@mak19801980]

Great video as always. Just for fun, I'd like to add my own thoughts on this subject as I've often pondered this exact topic. I have about a decade (in total) of Judo training and about six years of Karate training (Shotokan specifically, so I can't speak for other schools). The obvious answer to most of these questions is the lack of pressure testing in Karate, but I want to dig a bit deeper than that. In Judo, the techniques we practice are later used in fighting (i.e., randori and shiai); i.e., there is congruence between the techniques and the fights. Even the Kata, for the most part (with the exception of a few more 'colourful' Kata like Ju no), are fighting Katas. In Karate, this is not the case at all (at least not in any of the schools I've seen). The techniques practiced are for the most part incongruent to the more 'pressure tested' kumite part. The blocks, the punches, and so on are done almost religiously in a certain way, then once applied most of it goes out the window. The stance changes, the guard position changes, the movements change, techniques are no longer allowed, etc. In fact, Karate turns into a game of fencing with your hands and legs (which is what it should be, honestly). On top of that the Kata, which are interesting, but pretty much useless for a fight, are often sold as something that will somehow unlock your fighting potential. This has been debunked, but is still repeated (for me, the Kata in Karate are great stretching exercises and good for fitness, especially as we age, nothing more). These are just my humble thoughts, I'm not trying to make anyone angry, it's just an observation.

[@christophervelez1561]

Jesse Enkamp showed how Karate did lose an exhibition to boxers the first time it happened.

[@Acelespaul]

Great answer with real world insight. Thank you 🙏

[@julianschecter]

Hey Ramsay, thank you for clearing the misconception of why karate practitioners will always lose to trained boxers. It was educational, informative, and entertaining, well done! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I look forward to seeing more of your videos! You just earned a new subscriber, fan, and friend! 😎

[@SuperKamiGuruu]

They never sweep our legs

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Well with gloves on it's not easy to hold the broom

[@SuperKamiGuruu]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed kzbin.info/www/bejne/bonCgKdmoJmLgMU

[@theman0110]

​@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed thats why a real test should be no gloves no rules abd even then 1 fight wont prove anything every martial art has its advantages and i honestly dont get why martial artist feel its a competition on whos better when it just doesnt matter

[@cuban-being3087]

I have been boxing for 12 years, and I can honestly say, it depends on the Karate. I have a friend that studied karate in Cuba that gives me a run for my money every time we spar full contact. He isn't a tournament karateka, he learned legitimate karate from a WWII immigrant in Cuba.

[@Heroofthesand]

I'm stunned that the youtuber and the vast majority in here doesn't know that difference between sport/point karate and PROPER karate.

[@ninjafruitchilled]

Kicks are great, but I think people underestimate just how good you need to be at them to use them effectively. Like you say, they are slower than hands, so you get many less chances to get it right. And unless you manage to really land a kick right on the button they don't stop people. Or at least not unless you have really phenomenal power in your kicks and can break bones no matter where you hit, which most people can't. So yeah, if your kicks aren't good enough to stop someone closing the distance (and they probably aren't) then you better have some good hands ready to take over.

[@GustavoSilva-ny8jc]

That was so great!!! I loved the idea of your experiment.

[@RamseyDewey]

Thank you!

[@flamezombie1]

Writing this before I've seen the video, and I'll respond after I've finished (I like seeing how similarly different people answer the same question): because most karateka don't pressure test, or, if they do, only against other karateka and often without strikes to the head. Linearity has some to do with it too, but I think that's less important than the meta-concept of sparring often. You /could/ learn the concept of cutting angles from kata I suppose, but so many kata that are probably for cutting angles are taught as "well, you're fighting multiple opponents and are blindfolded and also there's 12 ninjas in the 7-11 next door... and one has a bazooka" ridiculousness, that you really have to spar a lot for them to make sense. The more I sparred as I got older and stopped taking karate lessons, the more the kata made sense... and the more I started to incorporate body jabs, head movement, etc. Interestingly, HEMA has been a great improvement to my unarmed sparring not just because of wrestling, but because of cutting angles. We sorta see the same issue with linearity in Olympic style fencing vs. HEMA as we do with karate vs. boxing.

[@flamezombie1]

Oh man, I had such a nice experience with one of my students on the topic of "thinking we're the best fighters" - he was encouraging a new student by saying "Hey, I'm probably the worst person here and I can still win sometimes, just roll with it!" I know I sound like a broken record with HEMA, but it is my primary focus and passion in martial arts: I think there's something about understanding that if that piece of nylon or blunt steel was real, we'd have a BIG pile of bodies by now haha. With unarmed sparring, there's always the "well, that punch wouldn't have knocked me out! if I could do x you wouldn't have submitted me" etc. etc., but when you see a feder bend 45 degrees on someone's mask and physically push someone back, that's damning. I think that's something that's missing in karate but also all unarmed martial arts; the mindset of 'assume that punch would've knocked you out and yours would've done nothing.' Keep going, but take mental notes. Ditto on setups, yeah. So many karateka (guilty) just spam kicks 24/7 because they're what reach out of range, and man a good wrestler will KILL you if you throw a naked round kick to the body lol. I had a good sensei when I was young, so I was so surprised to find that so many karateka didn't know almost ANY sweeps. It's not the same as wrestling, but you definitely learn to hide your kicks if you practice the sweeps. Great video as always.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Karate is not in its original form. They've only taken one aspect of it. Karate started on the Island Crete It was part of Pankration It was to strengthen the body bones and muscle.

[@flamezombie1]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed Man, I wish we had more manuals on pankration haha. It's so weird that all the kicks just sorta disappeared from European martial arts for like 1000 years and then came back in Savate.

[@DeeBeeScribe]

I remember partaking in a TKD many tournament years ago. I faced off against taller opponents because I was overweight for my height at the time so I used the punches way more than I used kicks. In fact, I was lighting all of my opponents up with punches but none of it was getting scored, and even dumber I couldn't go for the head. I quit TKD after that and never looked back. If I could've punched those guys in the face, or if the judges at least counted the numerous body shots I hit my opponents with I would've probably won.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@flamezombie1 during the Roman empires rule The Greece was under their rule as well. They had put laws against the practice of Paganism and Paganism is one with Pankration. That's when they created the Greco-Roman wrestling. The art of pancration is the first MMA of the world involving acrobatic striking fighting with weapons, grappling submissions, kickboxing, boxing and karate. Each style had its own purpose.

[@jamestaylor5995]

I train BJJ weekly. Our instructor is from the Valle Tudo tradition, meaning we still (on occasion) have one partner put on gloves and hit you while you try and do jujitsu. It's easy to think you know BJJ and can submit any attacker. It's humbling to discover how hard that is when someone is constantly beating your face.

[@MrCmon113]

No, I think it's easy to UNDERestimate your skills, because you only ever go against people who get better together with you. I don't think many people overestimate their abilities in a context with striking at all.

[@AppliedMathematician]

Well, my first judo sensei was also a karate sensei, but with the little sparring I did in freestyle I found the de-ashi-barai of most utility - once you learn how to perform it without needing to look where your adversaries foots are. The objective is not to finish the throw, but to break balance. The de-ashi-barai has the advantage that it does not to be telegraphed - it does not to be strong, just correctly timed. Very few adversaries can move in a way that does not telegraph their foot positions. Original Karate also includes throws so I think Boxers are on average in advantage because of more sparring with seriously resisting partners.

[@TimRHillard]

Hey Ramsey, how bout judoka? I have done both boxing and judo, and fought in each. I've done allot of other things too, including both kinds of football. I was more winded in judo and boxing than anything else. Those judoka, the ones that win matches are tough men and women. I think if you let judo fight judo style and a boxer box, the boxer doesn't outright win? Your thoughts?

[@Basaltmbl]

Dang, I like you and your frank honesty. It's obvious you have a large well of experience. What a great teacher you must be in person. Hope to meet you some day....outside China, mi amigo.

[@mikekempf1456]

Number 1 reason, imo, is that they do NOT keep their hands up

[@mikekempf1456]

also what you said about the fact boxers always having hard contact fights

[@aaronyhlee1386]

YES, EXACTLY this, plus lack of head movement.

[@Wingzero90939]

I mean for taekwondo yeah it’s in the rules you’re not allowed to punch people in the face. So therefore you have no reason to do it, keep your hands up, It’s very sports specific training. Just like Muay thai pretends the floor is lava.

[@SuperKamiGuruu]

@@Wingzero90939 Lmao exactly why I kicked tf out of people in the face in tkd too

[@Wingzero90939]

@@SuperKamiGuruu yeah they should be doing better distance management than that, most of the stuff they teach you in taekwondo is useless… It literally is useless it’s not allowed in the sport. The form serves no purpose you can’t use any of the blocks or throws in there, and any of the guard positions are all modified to protect your chest so you don’t lose points…

[@bashlivingstonstampededojo882]

I remember the first time I had sparred a boxer..I got lit up he kept catching me with the left lead hook after that I took up some boxing lessons I worked on the left hook a lot lol just because I could see how effective it was that's why every karateka should take up boxing lessons along with BJJ and wrestling lessons it's definitely possible for karateka too defeat boxer's that's why cross training and light sparring are important

[@DaveReithmiller1983]

100%

[@cowlico]

I’m very glad I learned to box, it was very humbling and educational. I teach it in my class and even invite other boxers to come in and teach. As far as kicking I train my guy to use all tools. Boxers got hands!! You do too learn to use them. You never know who you’re fight so expand your horizons and train hard.

[@jims512]

Good analysis. Another way to look at it is that sometimes “less is more,” especially if the boxer is good.

[@pittsguy7]

Nicely stated. Very astute observations. One additional thing I might offer is that kicks are most effective at long range, but once the opponent is in close, like a boxer, the kicks are ineffective. Again, I think you made some excellent points and have a really practical and pragmatic outlook on the viewer's question.

[@yikemikehappa2463]

My background is in Taekwondo. I sensed early on that I had to cross trained. So, I started visiting other karate, kung-fu and muay thai gyms. May Thai taught me leg kicks, using my hands more and how to catch a kick aimed at your ribs or your legs. One day after class, advanced tkd students were sparring with every thing (leg kick etc.) allowed as long as safety came first. So, my sparring partner threw a kick aiming at me rib and I caught the muay Thai way... and then swept my partner off his feet. MY 5 degrees black belt instructors told me not ever do that again. "Where did you learn that from? " He asked me. " "never do that again. He added One of the students told the instructor that I Must Have learned that "new technique while visiting other gyms" After sparring was over, without specifically calling my name, the instructor sat all the students down and mentioned while looking towards my direction that: " from now on, no students is allowed to go train somewhere else without his permission. " I left that night feeling odd, but i convinced myself quickly that I have been doing the right thing. While I was happy that a tkd instructor allowed leg kicks ( which is very rare), i strongly disagreed with him that I needed his permission to visit other schoos. I was going to tkd 3 times a week and I didn't think that he had any right to tell me what to do with my free time. If anything, I should be congratulated for being curious about other styles, reading materials on martial arts and be a disciplined students. I was the only student competing an I made the school proud by bringing a lot of trophies home. Needless to say that I walk away that night and never went back! I was still in my twenties when that happened. .. Since then, I have learned new skills: boxing, jiu jitsu, wrestling, and I am learning judo now in my 40s. That tkd school is still around doing their things and I am still here doing my things. Hunger to learn what other people are doing and curiosity have made me the martial artist I am today. I am very happy and will do it all over again if I have too.

[@The_Custos]

You did the right thing, and the instructor clearly felt threatened by a quickly improving student open to all styles.

[@kalreynolds5829]

He wasn't happy because you introduced a grappling technique into his light contact sparring. Which, yes and no. On one hand, it's a lot more dangerous and not a part of the art traditionally. On the other, it is exactly what is going to happen to anyone who tries using kicks in a live situation where people are not just keeping to strict TKD. It's sort of a no fault situation: he really cannot have everyone starting to do this as it's going to cause issues if you're training on a hard surface, and you're absolutely right to use a technique that invalidates 90% of the art and makes you much better both defensively and offensively. It's a serious problem with TKD. Step in, trap the leg, punch them so hard while they're one footed while absorbing a kick that they fall down, is not really part of the sport. Even a lot of the grapples have issues, because you don't grapple properly-I remember at a camp we were watching Human Weapon, and the Spetsnaz guys just went limp and used their weight for escapes. I tried it and it worked on 90% of the guys, you could just slip out. They'd only done those moves in formal learning, and while they have use, they're not expecting someone they can't hold up to just lean away from them and fall, then fight from the ground.

[@jmc0369]

I studies GoJu Karate as a kid prior to becoming an armature boxer (actually fighting every month, then for the Army). When i started Tang Soo Do, I was giving black belts fits in sparring as a rank beginner. They simply weren't used to the mechanics and angles. The best guy in the Dojang was a black belt in TSD amd Aikido with a heavy Kung Fu foundation. He said Aikido made it all click for him.

[@AmScEn]

A skilled boxer can see a kick coming right before a karate practiotioner sets his feet to kick.

[@Mirage_Mach5]

This is a great topic, Ramsey. When I think about this topic, Bruce Lee's philosophy about the traditional martial arts always comes to mind. The traditional martial arts are too rigid with too many fixed positions. And in a fight, you must be able to flow freely with fighting techniques. When I was younger, I studied Kyokushin Karate. I reached the rank of 1st kyu (brown belt w/black stripe). Even with the training, I always felt that something was seriously missing from my training, which was boxing and grappling. In my humble opinion, Karate and Taekwondo work better in the movies and tournaments.

[@MONEYEye]

Martial arts, beyond preparing yourself physically, must prepare you to be smarter. When I was practicing Karate do, Kioday Ryu in Puerto Rico, I discovered that I had a lot of skill with kicks, I even did all the tobi geri when I reached yellow belt, tobi means jump and geri kick; In other words, I was already jumping all the kicks on the yellow belt. Skill that was practiced in green belt, the fourth belt, white, yellow, blue, green. But in a sparring match with a sensie, Sensei Gilbert, he put me on my knees with a left hook to the side to the body. In Karate they don't teach you to block that type of punch, since in tournaments, the punches attacks are straight. But that Sensie, he had practiced boxing for many years, as well as judo, and when he sparred for self-defense, he liked to teach how to defend yourself in the streets. That day I learned a great lesson and began to train much more often with Sensei Gilbert than with the other Sensei. He practically taught me how to box, how to fight on the ground, how to use my footwork. Make me smarter fighter. Years later I applied this in a fight during my college years, against a boxer with many amateur fights already on his resume. The first thing I used was to stay calm, not attack first, wait for him to come towards me. I didn't put a Karate guard, but a guard more similar to those used in Kickboxing. In order to have a better defense and offense. Every time he tried to close the distance using his footwork, I used my low kicks to his knees, which hurt him a lot and I could see that his confidence was no longer the same. I could read on his face, "this guy knows how to fight." Then he changed tactics and started using angles, a lot of head movements and feints, as if he was trying to confuse me, but my footwork was as good or better than his; so he began to throw blows at my forearms, to lower my guard, but he already had a lot of respect for my lower kicks, which led him to get too distracted every time I used them, so I began to use them as a feint, to that he lost his guard and I started threw jabs and left hooks to his face, which didn't take long to see the blood on his nose and lips, plus his right cheekbone started to swallen. But he was a very athletic and strong guy, and he kept fighting, he didn't give up. The few times he reached out my arms, I felt its power. But the way he moved, he had a lot of stamina, even though he was bigger than me. I know I could have taken more risks and hurt him more, but I was smart, because one small mistake could be my last. So I never rushed. I told myself, "the amount of damage he's going to take, it's going to be on him." In other words, I took the fight, counterattacking his offensive. In the end, those present intervened when they saw the wounds on his face and noted that he had barely been able to hit me on the forearms, which was seen, me blocking his punches, but I know that his objective was to lower my guard. I'm very glad that it didn't get any worse and no one was arrested. He took the beating like a man and everything just stay there.

[@Lambdamale.]

I'm back in Karate now. I just want to be a bit better than the average untrained joe in case I'm attacked.

[@MONEYEye]

@@Lambdamale. I recommend also boxing. Boxing is adjustable to any martial arts. Is like an universal martial art, in my opinion.

[@stylicho]

I think Jon Jones proved that if you know how to elbow proficiently (he was probably the best at it) you can deal with anybody standing who is very close. Jones seems to have struggled at times in the boxing range which is in between the elbow and kick range

[@KingStreetBrody]

Jon jones is very crafty and is an exceptional athlete

[@8301TheJMan]

This isn't always the case, Andy Hug is without a doubt one of the top ten greatest kick-boxers of all time and he was a highly trained Karateka.

[@OverSooll]

kyokushin karate is an exception, though Andy had to learn boxing and muay thai to become a champion, jwhen I lived in japan he was a living god, though not sure I'd put him in the top 10, but great of the great for sure

[@Leinja]

@@OverSooll I think in HW you could pretty easily put Andy in top 10, even top 5. The top two are in my opinion Hoost and Aerts, but maybe that just shows my bias towards K1.

[@OverSooll]

@@Leinja hey buddy yes agreed if we take only K1 in consideration because the sport has evolved with many new champions, like you I'm nostalgic of the magical K1 area

[@kastellan1324]

Andy Hug legend

[@8301TheJMan]

@@kastellan1324 He was/is